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Nancy Grace
Body Found Near Homes of Missing Illinois Women
Aired May 21, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the mystery surrounding 23-year-old mom Stacy Peterson vanishing, upscale Chicago suburb, husband- slash-cop Drew Peterson the prime suspect in his fourth wife`s disappearance. Finally, Peterson charged in the 2004 drowning of wife three, Kathleen Savio, found covered in bruises, drowned to death in a bone-dry bathtub.
Bombshell tonight. In the last hours, a woman`s body found in a dense brush, washed ashore, the Des Plaines River, just 20 minutes from the Petersons` home, the woman wearing only underwear, no head, no arms, precluding an ID. Is it the body of 23-year-old young mother of four Stacy Peterson?
And in another major development, a blue barrel also discovered. Does the barrel corroborate Peterson`s stepbrother`s story he helped Peterson lug a heavy blue barrel out of the Peterson home the same time Stacy disappeared? Exclusive tonight, the woman who spots the alleged barrel- turned-coffin with us live. We are awaiting autopsy results and a positive ID on the remains tonight. Can Stacy Peterson finally rest in peace?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The big question tonight, who is it? State police removed the remains by boat five hours after a river clean-up crew came across a badly decomposed body along the side of the Des Plaines River.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They said they had found a body. They said it was pretty hard to determine the gender, but they think it was a female.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: As an autopsy is performed on some badly decomposed human remains found in the same area where Peterson`s fourth wife, Stacy, disappeared, our affiliate WLS is reporting a blue barrel was also found about a mile downstream. Drew Peterson`s stepbrother said he helped remove a blue barrel from Peterson`s home after Stacy disappeared, and he also told police he feared Stacy`s body was inside.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A relative of yours claimed (INAUDIBLE) container out of your home on October 28th?
DREW PETERSON, SUSPECT IN FOURTH WIFE`S DISAPPEARANCE: I have no idea what anybody`s talking about like that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Warm to the touch.
PETERSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says that he believes he helped you dispose of your wife`s body.
No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you at least respond to that?
PETERSON: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Not at all?
PETERSON: No response. Talk to my lawyer. I got nothing to say to that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No truth to it whatsoever?
PETERSON: None. Nobody helped me with anything.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And breaking news in the case of a beautiful young mom and her two little sons found dead in their white-finished two-story home strangled each in their own bedroom. A heartbreaking gesture, 31-year-old Sheri Coleman and the two little boys, Garrett and Gavin, ages just 9 and 11, laid to rest side by side.
In the late evening hours, police converge on the home of murder victim 31-year-old Sheri Coleman`s in-laws. Husband-slash-daddy, former Marine Chris Coleman behind bars as we speak on three counts murder one. Manner of death, ligature strangulation.
As we go to air, a significant development. Time of death now placed between 3:00 and 5:00 AM, but that`s when husband Chris Coleman still at the home. Forensics leading cops to arrest a preacher`s son who works personal security for renowned worldwide televangelist Joyce Meyer Ministries. A glove discarded, flung along I-255 five minutes from the Coleman home where Mommy and the little boys lay dead. That glove set to crack this case wide open, allegedly splotched with red spray paint, potentially a direct link to a chilling message scrawled in red paint across the wall of the murder scene.
Investigators fanning out to local Wal-Marts, hardware store for leads linked to red spray paint and rubber gloves. This after the specter of a mistress rears its ugly head in the midst of the murder investigation. Now prosecutors must prove who -- who -- crept into the family home in the darkened early morning hours to smoother and strangle the life out of a stunning young mother and two little boys, leaving all three dead in their own bed. They say it was Daddy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For several days now, we`ve been close.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police got evidence that they said was good enough for them to arrest Chris Coleman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were waiting on some forensic evidence, forensic testimony, different things, and it just all started coming together.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police zoned in on him from the beginning, with his alibi of going to the gym. If you look at the timeline here, 5:45, goes to the gym. He`s calling back to the house not even an hour later, and then he`s calling the cops within the hour to check on the family?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s saying that he called back to make sure the kids were getting up, getting ready for school. Had he done this before? Had he ever called back to check on his family when they didn`t answer the phone? They`ll be able to tell by his cell records.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We know some of the clues that they`ve been chasing. We know that they`re very interested in this rubber glove that they`ve found. We also know that police are very interested in spray paint.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That glove could be a treasure trove of evidence. You`ve got DNA. Also, you could have possible fingerprint evidence inside of a latex glove from either putting it on or taking it off, up in the very tips. You could also have hairs and fibers.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re just satisfied that we have a solid case.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. Has the body of a beautiful young mom, 23-year-old Stacy Peterson, missing since October 2007, finally been found?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some badly decomposed human remains found near the area where Peterson`s fourth wife, Stacy, is believed to have disappeared. They were found yesterday on a bank of the suburban Des Plaines River. Police divers are back there today. They`re still searching for more clues.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: State police did notify Stacy Peterson`s family that they did find the bones, but told them that it was going to be some time before they would know for sure exactly who it was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Fairly quickly, forensics experts should be able to determine the person`s height, body type, and if it`s a woman, whether she`d had children. Dental records and DNA will also be tested.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A blue barrel was also found. That might be significant because Drew Peterson`s own stepbrother said he helped Drew remove a blue barrel from Peterson`s home after Stacy disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is no blue barrel that he carry helped you carry down the stairs from your bedroom to your Yukon?
PETERSON: No. I don`t have a Yukon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tom Morphey is not telling a truthful story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tom Morphey is a -- there`s a documented history of mental illness, suicide attempts, psychiatric admissions, alcoholism and drug addiction.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. So you`re -- this doesn`t worry you at all.
PETERSON: No. Nothing worried me 18 months ago either, so...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, what`s the latest?
KATHY CHANEY, "CHICAGO DEFENDER": Well, an autopsy is under way on the badly decomposed, mainly skeletal remains that were found yesterday around 2:30 along the Des Plaines River in Channahon. And now we`re just waiting to find out an identification. I know DNA samples were collected. Stacy`s family provided those samples, and now we`re just waiting. Results may be back within a week.
GRACE: When you say Stacy`s family provided DNA samples, what family?
CHANEY: Stacy Peterson`s family -- from my understanding, her relatives, the ones that have been actively searching for her. They have provided some DNA samples to Illinois State Police.
GRACE: That`s interesting since she was living in the home with Drew Peterson. I`m wondering, did Drew Peterson supply DNA samples to police, Kathy Chaney, or it was her own extended family?
CHANEY: I believe it was her own extended family.
GRACE: Well, there you have it right there, Peterson refusing to help police, apparently, get a DNA sample from Stacy Peterson. Clearly, could have gotten it out of the home through a hairbrush or other material found in the home.
Straight out to Rupa Mikkilineni, on the story. Rupa, I understand that the woman`s torso, clad only in underwear, washed ashore against a river, has neither a head nor arms. Doesn`t that preclude a positive identification through either dental work or fingerprint?
RUPA MIKKILINENI, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s correct, Nancy, it does, and this is why they`re saying that the autopsy results and the identification could take some time. We`re looking at a DNA identification.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, renowned medical examiner and author of "When to Call the Doctor," joining us out of Miami. Dr. Perper, Stacy Peterson has been missing since October 28, 2007. At this juncture, would the medical examiner be able to tell if there were tool marks along the shoulders or the neck? Was the head and arms cut off the body? Will they be able to tell that?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, BROWARD COUNTY CHIEF MEDICAL EXAMINER: Well, they could tell whether this was a result of decomposition. Sometimes decomposition can break the body because the soft tissue and the cartilage decompose. Or they can see the marks of a tool or of a knife or an axe, or whatever was used to dismember the body. Yes, they can do that.
GRACE: Back to Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender." Kathy, what were the circumstances of finding the woman`s body?
CHANEY: Well, it was a clean-up crew that was cleaning along the shoreline of the river, and a worker pretty much just stumbled upon it, looked at it and said, Is that what I think that is? And looked closer and it was the torso and the legs. And then he just started making the phone calls to get the police out there to find out what was going on.
GRACE: So Kathy Chaney, you say a clean-up crew -- cleaning up what?
CHANEY: Just, I guess, debris or something along the riverbank. So it was not like they -- it may have been a routine cleaning.
GRACE: Straight out to Michelle Williams, a very special guest joining us in a primetime exclusive. This woman spotted a blue barrel at the Dupage River. Ms. Williams, thank you for being with us. Tell me what you observed along the river.
MICHELLE WILLIAMS, FOUND BLUE BARREL IN RIVER: On Sunday, my husband and I, we took our 1-year-old baby daughter for a walk along the I&M (ph) canal when we spotted to our left a blue barrel floating on the opposite bank of the Dupage River. And it was weird enough that we thought we should take a picture of it, and we also called local police here in Channahon to have them come out and take a look at it, as well.
GRACE: Michelle Williams, did you already know about the Stacy Peterson disappearance and the story that the stepbrother helped lug a blue barrel out of the home, helped Peterson get rid of a heavy blue barrel?
WILLIAMS: Yes. Living around here, how can you not hear about that? That`s the first thing we thought when we saw the barrel.
GRACE: So when you saw this blue barrel, Michelle Williams, what was your first reaction?
WILLIAMS: To call the police.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PETERSON: There`s not really a case yet. There is no case yet.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There is an investigation.
PETERSON: There`s an investigation, as there should be. So it`s just, like, I`m a suspect officially, but I figured I was a suspect from the beginning.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just because you`re the husband??
PETERSON: I`m the husband, you know? I`m the husband (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Morphey goes on to say that the day before Stacy`s disappearance, he and Peterson visited a storage facility on Illinois 53 and that Peterson offered him $2,000 to rent the locker himself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: His suspicions, they say, were based on helping Drew carry a large blue barrel that was warm to the touch from the couple`s Bolingbrook home on the night of October 28th.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We talked about his condition. We talked about what was going to be done in court today. And you know, he knows what`s going on. He is an experienced veteran law enforcement officer. He understands the legal procedure and that it takes time. And he`s not anxious. He`s very well-adjusted. He`s confident. He`s got a good mental attitude. And we`re prepared for whatever happens.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: A body has just been discovered about 20 minutes from Drew Peterson`s home. Is it Stacy Peterson? It is a woman`s body clad only in underwear. It is notably missing a head and arms, precluding a positive ID through dental or fingerprints.
Straight to Marc Klaas, president and founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. Weigh in, Marc.
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, this is not unlike in his namesake, Scott Peterson. You know, it was some period of time after Laci and her unborn baby, Conner, disappeared before the remains finally washed up on shore. And then there was another period of time prior to the final identification.
This guy, Drew Peterson, almost seems insane to me. He seems like he`s putting his middle finger up to society and daring them to catch him. Let`s hope, finally, we`ve been able to because this guy has a documented history of having wives disappearance or wives die under very suspicious circumstances.
GRACE: Out to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. We keep hearing his lawyer attacking every witness against Drew Peterson. This one`s a drug addict, that one owes money, this one has a gambling problem, this one`s an alcoholic. If they`re so terrible, what`s he doing hanging around with them?
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Exactly right, Nancy. You know, I mean, if you look back at Tom Morphey, you know, they basically discounted his whole story.
GRACE: You mean the stepbrother.
BROOKS: Exactly.
GRACE: Tom Morphey, the stepbrother.
BROOKS: They basically discounted his whole story. But also, let`s keep in mind there`s still another missing woman there in Illinois in the same area, from Plainfield. Recall Lisa Stebic disappeared back in April of 2007, mother of two. Her husband, Craig, was a person of interest, if you will, but they never have found her body, either.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Joining us tonight, former prosecutor Holly Hughes, Jason Oshins, defense attorney out of New York, and Doug Burns, renowned defense attorney also out of New York. Weigh in, Holly.
HOLLY HUGHES, FORMER PROSECUTOR: Nancy, you know what? This is the old argument that you can`t reward Drew Peterson for being a good criminal. They`re saying, Oh, you know, he went and -- this crazy guy, this brother- in-law is nuts, he`s psychotic. Well, who better to help you dump a body because nobody`s going to believe him, Nancy? He picks these people on purpose because they do have flaws and they`re not going to be believed and he`s law enforcement. So he thinks he`s, you know, in great shape. Everybody`s going to believe him over them. Again, don`t reward him for being a good criminal. He picks these people on purpose.
GRACE: You know -- to you, Jason Oshins -- I`ve argued to many a jury, Who do you think the defendant`s hanging around with, nuns and priests and virgins?
JASON OSHINS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, he doesn`t have any past criminal record. Obviously, he`s a decorated law enforcement officer. So you know, in that sense, it doesn`t really make...
GRACE: No criminal record? Neither did Scott Peterson. Neither did Ted Bundy to that point.
OSHINS: Yeah. Neither of them...
GRACE: So?
OSHINS: ... were decorated...
GRACE: That means nothing to me.
OSHINS: Nancy, neither of them were decorated law enforcement officers. I don`t think that there`s a direct correlation between all the circumstantial evidence and the players who want to get involved in this case right now. I think it`s just great theater for all these people to get involved.
GRACE: Well, let`s see the lawyers, please, Elizabeth. To you, Doug Burns. Oshins calls it great theater. Let me remind you two defense attorneys of a little thing called a murder one indictment...
OSHINS: I`m aware of that.
GRACE: ... that`s been handed down against Drew Peterson in the case of murdered wife number three.
OSHINS: I hear you, Nancy.
DOUG BURNS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, I agree. I mean, there is a lot of theater, but so what? The big thing here is that this development about finding these remains is very, very important. And we need to see what the scientific and forensic information comes back because it`s a lot easier to prosecute a case with the remains than without, so let`s just see what happens.
GRACE: And another issue here, Doug Burns, is the discovery of this blue barrel found by Michelle Williams. She doesn`t have a dog in the fight. She doesn`t have any skin in the game. So attacking her credibility will be very, very difficult.
BURNS: Well, that`s a great point because it`s so phony. You call people, They`re a liar, a drug addict, and this and that. But guess what? If physical...
GRACE: Not Michelle Williams.
BURNS: If physical evidence corroborates that person`s version -- now I`m talking about the stepbrother, Nancy...
GRACE: Yes.
BURNS: ... then it`s going to be a very uphill battle for the defense.
GRACE: And to Dr. Bethany Marshall. What do you make of Drew Peterson`s so-called calm, cool demeanor even after the discovery of this body that washed ashore?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: I think it`s the fact that he`s arrogant. He feels that he`s above the law. He has a total history with the Bolingbrook Police Department. When he`s had domestic events against women, they covered for him. They`ve covered his behind. And he thinks that because of all of that, that he can get away with it again and again. It really is, in my mind, the grandiosity of a person with an anti-social personality disorder.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There`s no blue barrel that he helped you carry down the stairs from your bedroom to your Yukon.
PETERSON: No. I don`t have a Yukon.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Or whatever -- whatever vehicle it was.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jeep, whatever.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I do know one thing, if there was enough evidence to arrest you, I know that they would have.
PETERSON: Oh, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes. Without -- without question. I mean you know, lookit, Jim Glasgow is a very fine attorney. John Connor (ph), the guy that`s running the grand jury, is no fool. He`s a great attorney, too. And they`re not going to cut through any slack. If they thought that they could prove the case beyond a reasonable doubt, they`d charge him in an instant.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight back out to Kathy Chaney with "The Chicago Defender.` So, apparently, Drew Peterson`s response is, I`m not worried?
CHANEY: Factually. I mean, he said bodies have, you know, been washed ashore before, so this is no different. And besides, he`s always said that he doesn`t believe she`s missing. So why be concerned?
GRACE: I want to go to Derek Armstrong, author of "Drew Peterson exposed." He interviewed Peterson for hours and hours. Derek Armstrong, what is your reaction to this woman`s body about 20 minutes from the Peterson home washing ashore, with the arms and head missing, clad only in underwear?
DEREK ARMSTRONG, AUTHOR, "DREW PETERSON EXPOSED": Well, I think it`s -- it`s a big break. I hope it`s a big break because they`re not going get anything out of Drew Peterson himself. They need this kind of concrete evidence to proceed with that case.
GRACE: I want to go back to Michelle Williams. She is the woman who also spotted a blue barrel not far from the location of this woman`s body that has just washed ashore. She thought, wisely at the time, to take a photo of the barrel after having heard about Stacy Peterson`s disappearance.
Back to Michelle Williams standing by there at her home. Ms. Williams, when you saw the blue barrel, you immediately in your mind connected it to Stacy Peterson, or possibly to Stacy Peterson, were you afraid? Did you get a chill down your spine? What happened?
WILLIAMS: Not on Sunday. My husband and I just -- it popped into our minds and we just thought it was something that we should report about to the local police department. But it wasn`t until yesterday afternoon, when the news broke that there had been skeletal remains washing up on shore not that far away from where we had seen the blue barrel, that I had a sick feeling to my stomach when I heard that.
GRACE: Ms. Williams, about how far was the blue barrel that you spotted from the location of this woman`s body?
WILLIAMS: I`m not too familiar with the geographics of it all. I haven`t lived here very long. But according to several different news outlets out here, they`re saying approximately a mile away.
GRACE: To you very quickly, Mike Brooks. You would need a wind and current expert to explain how a body may have come out of a blue barrel and continued along in a different path from the barrel itself.
BROOKS: That`s exactly right. And what they`re going to do -- the divers are still out there. They`re probably looking forward to see if there was any top to that barrel and to see if there`s any other remains further down river.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some badly decomposed human remains found near the area where Peterson`s fourth wife Stacy is believed to have disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stacy will not be in any trouble. She will not be prosecuted for anything if she returns.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our affiliate WLS is reporting that a blue barrel was also found just a mile downstream. That might be significant because Drew Peterson`s own stepbrother said he helped drew remove a blue barrel from Peterson`s home after Stacy disappeared.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Morphey was quoted as saying that he feels betrayed by the state police and feels betrayed by the state`s attorneys office. Obviously that means that they don`t think he`s credible either. They`ve made that determination that they haven`t taken him before the grand jury for that reason and therefore I`m not the only one, Drew and I are not the only people that say Tom Morphey is not telling a truthful story.
STEVE DAHL, WJMK-FM RADIO: I don`t want to compromise anybody`s, you know, situation here, so I do believe in innocent until proven guilty.
DREW PETERSON, ACCUSED OF MURDER: Well, thank you. I wish the rest of the world and country did.
DAHL: Yeah. Well, we love a missing wife. We can`t help ourselves.
PETERSON: I understand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Did you just hear Peterson`s lawyer say Stacy Peterson will not be prosecuted if she comes back -- from the dead? The breaking news tonight, a woman`s body has just washed ashore at the Des Plaines River in dense brush. It`s missing a head. It`s missing arms, fingerprints precluding an identification through dental records or fingerprints. Back to Rupa Mikkilineni, the type of discovery, I`m trying to find out why was the guy out there cleaning up? Explain to me more about the discovery of this torso.
MIKKILINENI: Sure, Nancy. I spoke to the man that discovered the body, and he is a member of an environmental cleaning group that goes up and down, travels up and down this river periodically to clean the river of debris and other pollutants.
GRACE: Now the time that he saw the torso, of course he couldn`t make out exactly what it was. Did he call the police immediately, Rupa?
MIKKILINENI: He did not. He actually got a closer look at the remains to make sure that it is what he thought it was and he determined after taking a closer look that it was human remains and he called the police about 10 minutes later.
GRACE: To Dr. Joshua Perper, chief medical examiner of Broward County. Dr. Perper, how long it will take to make a DNA comparison if they`ve got DNA from Stacy Peterson?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: It depends on the decomposition of the body and of the DNA. It might take several weeks for sure.
GRACE: To make a DNA comparison?
PERPER: Well, first of all, they have to extract the DNA from the decomposed tissue. That`s quite difficult if there is a great deal of decomposition.
GRACE: Understood.
PERPER: And then they`ll have to have a reference from the victim of tissue DNA whether it`s hair or roots of hair or other remains.
GRACE: You know, also to the lawyers, Holly Hughes, Jason Oceans, Doug Burns. We keep hearing Peterson`s lawyer say that Tom Morphey, Peterson`s stepbrother who says, his story is that he helped Peterson lug a big blue barrel out of the home at the same time Stacy Peterson disappears. He keeps saying he didn`t go to the grand jury. He did go to the grand jury. He did positively testify under oath in front of the grand jury. So I -- I don`t quite understand Peterson`s credibility attack on his own stepbrother, Jason Oceans?
OCEANS: I hear you, Nancy. I don`t know what the timeline of those different videos are, but whatever you`re doing you`re just trying to discredit as much as you can and get it out to the potential jury pool that this guy is nuts. You can`t trust what he says.
GRACE: Doug Burns, every witness you put on the stand, unless it`s Mother Teresa is subject to cross-examination, to a credibility attack. I`m not impressed.
BURNS: You`re right and it`s a back and forth. Also grand jury proceedings are usually secret and the witness can disclose himself. He shouldn`t really be testifying about who did or didn`t testify at a grand jury.
GRACE: And to Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. The barrel found by Michelle Williams who immediately contacted the police. She`s showing you right now a photo that she and her husband wisely snapped with their cell phone at the time they called police. If this is the barrel that contains Stacy Peterson`s body, what forensic evidence do you expect to get out of it.
BROOKS: It depends how long it`s been in the elements, Nancy, it depends if there`s any water in there. They might not get anything at all. But keep in mind this area along the canal, this was searched back a number of years ago and they did find a blue barrel back then but then they called the search off. Law enforcement has been in this area before and they did find another blue barrel.
GRACE: And that means to me what?
BROOKS: I`m just saying, you know it could be associated, it may not be associated.
GRACE: So that`s what that meant. OK, thank you Mike Brooks for the interpretation.
BROOKS: You`re welcome.
GRACE: Very quickly, I want to take you to another story, a story of 31-year-old mother Sheri Coleman, her two little boys, nine and 11 years old, all three found dead in their own beds. Finally, the break we`ve been looking for, a renowned scientist places the time of death. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We felt for several days that we knew who was responsible for this crime and we`re just glad that it came to an end and that we were able to place the suspect under custody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Think about this manner of death, ligature strangulation. Who does that? Somebody who wants low noise, low mess, no blood, no gun shot residue or anything like that. Imagine how cold and calculated that father would have to be to do that to his kids.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We heard about a glove that was found on I-255. That`s the route Chris Coleman takes to go to the gym. Apparently, there`s spray paint on this glove that`s consistent with the spray paint with the message on the wall.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were some messages on the walls inside.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It said, quote, "I told you this would happen," according to press reports that we`ve seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And Major Connor (ph), you`re saying that`s not what was written on the wall?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s not exactly what was written on the wall.
GRACE: You said not exactly. Was it close to what was written, Major?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, it was close. They were threats toward the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Elly Jostad, incredible development in the story of Sheri Coleman, her two sons Garret (ph) and Gavin (ph). We now have a time of death. It`s placed between 3:00 and 5:00 a.m., why is that so significant in this case?
COLEMAN: Well, we know that Chris Coleman says that he left for the gym at about 5:45 that morning. By the time police got there and discovered the bodies it was 7:00 a.m. So you`ve got a very narrow window of time. Now, Dr. Michael Baden, renowned forensic scientist has reportedly taken a look at the autopsy reports and he pinpoints that time of death between 3:00 a.m. and 5:00 a.m.
GRACE: Back to renowned chief medical examiner out of Broward County, Dr. Joshua Perper. How did Baden do it, Dr. Perper.
PERPER: My understanding is there were no special tests done in this particular case such as the level of a chemical called potassium in the eye (ph) which helps with the exact determination of the time of death. I must say they think that Dr. Baden went on a leg here and this kind of determination within two hours is really highly questionable. However, all of the other circumstantial evidence certainly points to the father and the fact that he called the police the short time, but I think that the determination of the so-called postmortem clock is very wide and unreliable and to restrict it to two hours, I would say is highly questionable.
GRACE: To Chris Hayes standing by at the jailhouse in Waterloo. He`s joining us from KTVI. What are the jail conditions under which Chris Coleman`s living?
CHRIS HAYES, KTVI CORRESPONDENT: Pretty OK. We walked in and we wanted to see if we could get a tour, actually and because of the security and the nature of the security, they would not allow us to walk in. We`re talking about 22 maximum security cells, individual cells only half full in there. Eleven people in there, two females and they`re in one wing. On this other wing there`s a circular formation of these 22 cells with a detention officer in the middle and then Chris Coleman`s in one of those cells.
GRACE: With us outside the jail, Chris Hayes with KTVI. We`ll be right back with Chris Hayes. But as we go to break, a special happy birthday to Dublin, Georgia, friend of the show Dr. Bill Chism. Dr. Chism, you have touched so many lives. Happy birthday.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have a Christopher Coleman in custody. He was charged with three counts of first-degree murder in the deaths of his wife and his two small children.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They brought him here this morning and people were ready for him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby killer! Murderer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Illinois husband and father accused of killing his wife and their two children by strangulation. He appeared before a judge today and pleaded not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: His wife Sheri and two young kids Gavin and Garrett were found strangled to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police are still awaiting test results from a glove reportedly found along a stretch of nearby interstate. It appears to have spray paint stains on it consistent with a threat left on a wall at the crime scene.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was a message written on the wall in spray paint that said something to the effect of "I told you so" or "I told you this would happen." Case quad investigators have been in stores asking about spray paint sales and even taking samplings of red spray paint.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For several days now we`ve been able to solidify just a more solid case. The prosecutor felt, as we did, that at this point there was enough time to charge him with these crimes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Joining me right now is a very special guest. This is the family spokesperson, cousin of 31-year-old mother of two, Sheri Coleman. With me Enrico Mirabelli. Sir, thank you for being with us. What is your reaction of placing the time of death between 3:00 and 5:00 a.m. It`s a major, major development in the state`s case against husband Chris Coleman.
ENRICO MIRABELLI, COUSIN OF MURDER VICTIM: I have to tell you, you catch me by surprise because I haven`t heard that news. Let`s put it this way, Mr. Coleman told many authorities that when he left the home between 5:00 and 5:30 that his wife and children were alive. If they can actually pin the death between 3:00 and 5:00, then clearly, he was not telling the truth.
GRACE: Mr. Mirabelli, so many people have asked us how she met him, about their courtship. How did they meet?
MIRABELLI: Sheri was in the Air Force, Chris was in the Marines. Sheri was an M.P., Chris was an M.P. And they met in Quantico, Virginia, while they were both in the service, started dating, got married and I believe she was still in the service when her first child was born, when Garrett was born.
GRACE: So Chris Coleman was a member of the military police?
MIRABELLI: He was a member of the military police in the marines.
GRACE: Enrico Mirabelli joining us. He is a family spokesperson for Sheri Coleman, the 31-year-old mom found dead in her own bed. Mr. Mirabelli. I`m trying to find out more about Chris Coleman? Have you spoken to him since his wife and children were found dead?
MIRABELLI: I personally have not spoken to him. Upon learning of the deaths of my family, when you say I`m the spokesperson, just to let you know I`m Sheri`s first cousin. For two days our family called Chris Coleman finally after two days he called back. He spoke to Sheri`s brother Mario and there has been no communication since then. So, no, I haven`t talked to him. Nobody has talked to him except Mario and that was just the single phone call.
GRACE: Enrico, why has he shaved his head?
MIRABELLI: You`re asking me to speculate. I don`t know. I think the more important question is why did he do what he did? That`s the real question, isn`t it? Not why did he shave his head?
GRACE: Well, Mr. Mirabelli, frankly, I find it very unusual about the timing of shaving his head as it relates to the prosecution of this case. If he were trying to alter his appearance in some way is my gist. So that`s why I`m trying to determine the time he so drastically altered his appearance. Elizabeth, let`s see if we can show a shot of Chris Coleman before he shaves his head in this manner. I want to go out to mike brooks. Mike Brooks, weigh in.
BROOKS: You know, Nancy. This is very unusual. You`ve seen cases where people will do -- commit a crime and then they will alter their appearance. So why he shaved his head, that`s a mystery to me, too. Maybe the psychologist can weigh in because what goes through someone`s mind after they commit a crime like this is unfathomable to me.
GRACE: Back to Chris Hayes standing by. He`s from KTVI and he`s there in the jailhouse in waterloo. Chris Hayes, what are hearing outside jailhouse walls about Chris Coleman inside the jailhouse?
HAYES: He`s had no visitors as of this afternoon. We wanted to see if his parents have come from Chester, Illinois, and that is not the case at this time. Right now he`s in an area that -- they don`t have a place for lockdown. Everybody is treated alike. So there`s not necessarily a suicide watch or anything like that. There`s only 11 people in this 22- house jail cell. So everybody`s got equal eyes on him. There is a rec room where he can go and he can go there at any point and be there as long as he wants. It`s kind of an as-needed case, if people are on good behavior and can get along they can continue to do that. The cell is self- contained, he`s got toiletries in there, the shower, everything is in there, so he could stay there at all times if he need to.
GRACE: He can go to a recreaction room whenever he wants to? What`s in a rec room?
COLEMAN: We asked. There`s basic TV, books in there. Typically they play cards is what the sheriff told us.
GRACE: So he`s lounging. He`s watching TV. He`s catching up on his reading and playing cards in the recreation room. Chris Coleman is having recreation, is that what I`m hearing?
COLEMAN: And we also asked about the actual jail cell itself, whether or not he could have a radio in there. There are not individual electrical receptacles, but you can request a radio to be plugged in on the outside, if someone turns it up too loud they`ll unplug it but you can have things in your cell as well.
GRACE: Chris Hayes standing by at the jail. I understand there`s more information about the spray paint. What do we know?
HAYES: There`s more than just one message here. People have been reporting I told you this would happen and as you heard earlier on your program that the major case squad representative said that that`s not exactly what it said. It`s more like I told you so, but the problem in it is and why you don`t hear a specific, what it said it is like helter- skelter. These are big letters, it`s almost dripping and it`s in red spray paint. This is in a section going up the stairs to the bedroom.
In the living room there`s a whole other section with a bad word and it says something like "punished" below. So this is something that when these pictures finally come out and people will look at this and say this took some time.
GRACE: And I want to go to the lawyers. Holly Hughes, Jason Oceans, Doug Burns, what does it mean to you, Doug Burns, that the killer felt so relaxed and unhurried in the home he took time to write multiple messages in spray paint on the walls?
BURNS: I agree that theoretically that is going to undermined any argument whatsoever that was the heat of passion or rush of the moment thing and I think that`s a really bad mistake by the person who did the crime.
GRACE: Jason Oceans, take the side of a defense attorney, which you are, how do you combat that?
OCEANS: That`s really hard, Nancy. There`s no easy way to do that. Plea negotiations or something at that point when the evidence is overwhelming. You have to cross that bridge when you come to it. In the meantime, you dissect every piece of evidence and you try to discredit the information the prosecution has.
GRACE: Holly Hughes.
HUGHES: This is great stuff, Nancy, because not only did he take his time to go spray paint his messages.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, let`s not call a message scrawled on the wall of a murder scene involving two little boys and a mom great stuff. That just sets my teeth on edge. Go ahead.
HUGHES: Evidentially speaking, Nancy, you want things that are going to nail down who did this. If this man was comfortable enough to take the time, he went out, it was premeditated, he bought the paint ahead of time, he bought the gloves ahead of time. If you look at the timeline, a lot of times the timeline is what catches a criminal. He didn`t leave until 5:45. If he killed them by 5:00, that gives him 45 minutes to use those things and doctor up that scene.
GRACE: Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst, author of "Deal Breakers", what`s your analysis?
DR. BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: It`s not unusual for sociopaths to put on what we call in my field the mask of sanity, meaning they know there`s something unusual, they`re not like the others but they pretend they are like the others. They assemble a normal life, they marry a wife under their firm control. With you when they want to get rid of the family, they just dispose of them dispassionately. He probably didn`t want to have to pay child support. He probably wrote a bad word and took his time and was calm, cool and collected because he didn`t have a sense of anxiety about what was going on, which is typical of the sociopath.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: To Marlaina Schiavo, you have talked to some store owners about cops investigating spray paint?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. I talked to a local store called "The Rural King" and it`s in Waterloo right where the jail is. And they said that the day after the murders, the major case squad came by and was asking about spray paint, specifically red spray paint, the sales, the brands, and anything about that. So we have confirmed, at least one store has been asked about this spray paint.
GRACE: To Sheri Coleman`s first cousin, Enrico Mirabelli, I understand the family is filing a wrongful death case. Explain.
MIRABELLI: Nancy, that is correct. Jack here (ph) and I are in the process of preparing the suit, which we hope to file very soon. The sole purpose of the suit, Nancy, is not to profit, but to deny any ill gotten gain to Christopher Coleman. And it would go after any assets that he might have in his possession and attempt to take a judgment against him and take those assets away.
GRACE: With me, Sheri Coleman`s first cousin, who is speaking for the family, attorney Enrico Mirabelli joining us from Chicago. And to you, Marc Klaas, what are your thoughts?
MARC KLAAS, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: I think this is a very good move on their part. First of all, I would like to offer my condolences to Mr. Mirabelli and the family. But I think it`s a very good move on their part to lodge this suit against this character. The evidence continues to mount against this guy. Remember, he was dismissive of the family. He refused to even call them for a couple of days. He refused to let the bodies be moved to the Chicago area so that they would be able to have a viewing of it.
I think that he emotionally disconnected from them and I think that`s a real big red flag.
GRACE: And remember, Marc Klaas, not just founder of Klaaskids Foundation a crime victim himself. His daughter Polly killed the way these two boys were killed.
Let`s stop and remember Army Corporal Michael Mayne, 21, Burlington Flats, New York, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, loved life, the outdoors, motorcycles and big trucks. Planned a hunting trip in Colorado with his dad when he got home. An Eagle Scout, mentored Boy Scouts in his hometown, remembered for his sense of humor, he would sing Britney Spears songs and "Eye of the Tiger" to make his friends laugh. Leaves behind loving parents Lee and Cathy. Michael Mayne, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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