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American Morning
Highlights of Obama and Cheney's Duel on National Security Issues; Father Pleas to Wife to Return Cancer-Stricken Son; Defective China-Made Drywall Poses Health Risks to Homeowners; Cheney on Ruling Out Enhanced Interrogation; Debate Over Bringing Detainees to U.S.; Montana Prison Could House Gitmo Detainees
Aired May 22, 2009 - 06:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, good Friday morning to you. Thanks very much for being with us on the Most News in the Morning. It is the 22nd of May, I'm John Roberts.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Kiran Chetry. Glad you're with us.
We're following several developing stories right now. A look at what's on the agenda. These are the big stories we're breaking down in the next 15 minutes.
First, it's the growing debate -- past versus present over how to keep the U.S. safe from terror attacks. Right now, President Obama and former Vice President Dick Cheney are both defending their terror policies. The president's plan to close Gitmo took a huge hit overnight from his own party. We're going to have more on that in a moment.
Please bring Danny home, that emotional plea from the father of a 13-year-old who's dying from cancer and on the run with his mother to avoid chemotherapy. We're following the story and the search which has now become a race against time.
And their own homes are making them sick. The culprit may be defective drywall made in China, imported during the housing boom. Studies suggest it's corroding pipes, causing respiratory problems and actually driving people out of their homes. It's affecting thousands of people in more than a dozen states. It's a follow-up to a story we've been watching closely here on AMERICAN MORNING.
ROBERTS: We begin this morning with a new challenge to the president's new approach to fighting terrorism, and it's coming from fellow Democrats who helped derail the president's plan to close the prison camp at Guantanamo Bay.
Last night, the Senate approved a $91 billion bill to fund the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, but only after lawmakers stripped it of cash that was needed to close Gitmo. The vote coming just hours after an extraordinary debate between the president and former Vice President Dick Cheney. The president blasting the Bush administration for creating Gitmo in the first place.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Instead of serving as a tool to counterterrorism, Guantanamo became a symbol that helped Al Qaeda recruit terrorists to its cause. Indeed, the existence of Guantanamo likely created more terrorists around the world than it ever detained.
So the record is clear. Rather than keeping us safer, the prison at Guantanamo has weakened American national security. It is a rallying cry for our enemies. It sets back the willingness of our allies to work with us in fighting an enemy that operates in scores of countries. By any measure, the cost of keeping it open far exceed the complications involved in closing it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Moments after President Obama's attack from just a few blocks away, the suddenly outspoken former Vice President Dick Cheney fired back. He didn't let politics or politeness get in the way. He offered an unapologetic defense of Bush administration tactics which he claimed saves thousands of innocent lives.
It was a truly unprecedented and extraordinary face-off between a sitting president and a former vice president. The debate we never got to see.
Here's CNN's Candy Crowley with highlights of the dueling speeches.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
OBAMA: Thank you all for being here.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It was the present colliding with the past, a cross-town exchange which needs little narrative. Closing down Guantanamo Bay prison.
OBAMA: We're cleaning up something that is quite simply a mess, a misguided experiment that has left in its wake a flood of legal challenges that my administration is forced to deal with on a constant, almost daily basis.
DICK D. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The administration has found that it's easy to receive applause in Europe for closing Guantanamo. But it's tricky to come up with an alternative that will serve the interest of justice in America's national security.
CROWLEY: Harsh interrogation techniques banned by the Obama administration as ineffective and counter to American values.
OBAMA: Those who argued for these tactics were on the wrong side of the debate, and the wrong side of history. That's why we must leave these methods where they belong -- in the past. They are not who we are, and they are not American.
CROWLEY: Those would be the same tactics the former vice president says were used as a last resort on a handful of high-value detainees yielding information that saved thousands of lives.
D. CHENEY: What's more, to completely rule out enhanced interrogation in the future is unwise in the extreme. It is recklessness cloaked in righteousness.
CROWLEY: The poetic president versus the prosaic former vice president. Serious men with serious differences both willing to take it to the mat.
It's rare to see a sitting president go after his predecessors with such force.
OBAMA: It can't be based...
CROWLEY: Standing at the cavernous National Archives housing the constitution, the declaration of independence and the bill of rights, he virtually accused the Bush administration of abandoning American values.
OBAMA: All too often our government made decisions based on fear rather than foresight. But all too often, our government trimmed facts and evidence to fit ideological predispositions. Instead of strategically applying our power and our principles, too often we set those principles aside as luxuries that we could no longer afford.
CROWLEY: While several former officials have criticized sitting administrations, this former started earlier than most and excels in verbal slice and dice.
D. CHENEY: In my long experience in Washington, few matters have inspired so much contrived indignation and phony moralizing as the interrogation methods apply to a few captured terrorists. I might add that people who consistently extort the truth in this way are in no position to lecture anyone about values.
CROWLEY: This was not a tale of two cities. It was a tale of two universes.
Candy Crowley, CNN, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHETRY: All right. Well, it was one of the first things to go when President Obama took office. A key point of contention yesterday and that's the use of waterboarding and other tough interrogation tactics on terror suspects.
President Obama is saying that they are at odds with the core values that define this country. But the former vice president insisting they were fully justified and not torture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I know some have argued that brutal methods like waterboarding were necessary to keep us safe. I could not disagree more. They undermine the rule of law. They alienate us from the world. They serve as a recruitment tool for terrorists and increased the will of our enemies to fight us, while decreasing the will of others to work with America.
D. CHENEY: In the fight against terrorism, there is no middle ground. And half measures keep you half exposed. You cannot keep just some nuclear-armed terrorists out of the United States. You must keep every nuclear-armed terrorist out of the United States.
Triangulation is a political strategy, not a national security strategy. When just a single clue that goes unlearned or one lead that goes unpursued can bring on catastrophe, it's no time for splitting differences. There is never a good time to compromise when the lives and safety of the American people hang in the balance.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: Well, opinions are strong on both sides and we want to know what you think. Join the conversation by calling into our show hotline, 1-877-MY-AMFIX.
Also, stick around. We have Liz Cheney, the daughter of the former vice president, and an outspoken defender of his policies. She's going to be joining us in about 25 minutes.
And we're also following developing news this morning in the life-and-death search for a cancer-stricken teen and his mother.
ROBERTS: Authorities in Minnesota have issued a felony arrest warrant for Colleen Hauser. She fled with her 13-year-old son, Daniel, to avoid court-ordered chemotherapy treatments.
The warrant allows other states to detain the pair if they're found. It's believed that mother and son may be headed for Mexico for alternative treatments of his Hodgkin's lymphoma. Doctors though say without chemotherapy, Daniel's chances of survival are slim. His father now making a public appeal to his wife to bring home their dying son.
CNN's Jason Carroll joins us now. He's got the story for us.
Good morning, Jason.
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. I think what's going on with his father is basically he's reeling that time is really of the essence here.
Daniel Hauser and his mother, Colleen, are still on the run. And his father is hoping wherever they may be, they can hear his message and listen to what he has to tell them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANTHONY HAUSER, DANIEL HAUSER'S FATHER: Please bring Danny home so that we can decide as a family what Danny's treatment should be. I know you're scared and I feel that you left out of fear, maybe without thinking it all the way through. We sure can't do the best for Danny with both of you on the run. So, please, give me a call.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Well, authorities believed his wife and son may be in the Los Angeles area trying to head to Mexico. The last-known contact anyone has had with Daniel or his mother was Monday. At the press conference, authorities promised Colleen Hauser leniency if she turns herself in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF RICH HOFFMANN, BROWN CO., SHERIFF'S DEPT: If you call and make arrangements to return, please be assured that we will not take an enforcement action if you have shown a good faith effort to come back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CARROLL: Doctors diagnosed Hauser with Hodgkin's lymphoma this past January and began chemotherapy treatment. The cancer did respond to initial treatments but caused side effects prompting his parents to refuse more chemo saying they wanted to pursue natural forms of treatment.
The Hausers are Roman Catholic but also believe in natural Native American healing methods. Hauser's father says he still supports the family's decision to seek alternative forms of medicine, but what he wants for his son is what's best for him and he says that is for him to come home right away.
The doctor who initially treated Daniel says without further treatment soon, his odds of survival would plummet to about five percent. With treatment, they say his chances of survival would be about 80 percent to 95 percent.
ROBERTS: You know, we hear a lot about the side effects that he suffered when he got the initial round of chemotherapy. Do we know if they were any worse than the typical side effects?
CARROLL: No, not any worse than the typical side effects. But when you listen to what the Hausers said initially, they were worried that his son -- that their son's condition was so bad that what he was suffering from would make his condition even worse.
ROBERTS: All right. Jason Carroll this morning. Jason, thanks.
This story has sparked an emotional debate among you, our viewers. Calls have been lighting up the "amFIX" hotline. Here's some of what you're saying about Daniel Hauser and his mother.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
THERMON (via telephone): The mother also should bring the young fellow back home so that he can get medical treatment. She's playing Russian roulette and she may be on the losing end -- maybe not her, but definitely her son.
VALERIE, ALABAMA (via telephone): I think you should leave the child alone and let him decide. Give him a verbal explanation of what they're trying to do and then let him decide.
ANONYMOUS (via telephone): Someone needs to lock her up and throw away the key. This is your child. I have five children. I cannot imagine not going to the end of the world trying to find a cure.
SHELLY, CANADA (via telephone): That mother gave birth to her child. And she has every right to seek any method possible for her child before putting poison into his body.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Let us know what you think. Get involved and join the discussion by calling our "amFIX" hotline at 877-MY-AMFIX. That's 877-692-6349.
CHETRY: It's now ten minutes past the hour. New this morning, President Obama is expected to sign a credit card reform bill into law today but it will be nine months before it actually takes effect. Customers will then be able to have -- who are more than 60 days behind on their payments, ought to be 60 days behind on their payments before they get an interest rate hike. And if they make payments on time for six months after that, the rate -- the lower rate will then be restored. Credit card companies also face tougher restrictions on issuing cards to people under 21.
Alaska Governor Sarah Palin defending her decision to reject nearly $29 million of federal stimulus money tied to energy conservation. Palin claims that accepting the stimulus money will require the state to push new building codes on local governments. She did accept $900 million in other stimulus funds.
And defective drywall. The Chinese-made products may be damaging homes and causing health problems. Congress and homeowners now demanding answers.
It's a story we've been following closely here on AMERICAN MORNING. We have an update for you.
It's 11 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Well, how about that for a beautiful day this morning in Boston? Thanks to our friends at WCVB for that. Sixty degrees right now in Boston, going up to a high of 91 and lots of sunshine out there today.
A look at some of the other stories new this morning. A computer virus targeting the law. The FBI and U.S. marshals were forced to shut down Internet access and some staffers' e-mail while they worked to identify the virus and its origin. So far, officials say no data was compromised.
The government is scrapping those so-called puffer machines, you know, the ones that blast you with several quick spurts of air to detect explosive residue at airports. The Transportation Security Administration which spent an estimated $30 million on the machines is now spending $1 million to remove them from the airports. The TSA now says they're unreliable and break down because of dirt and humidity.
And former President Bush says leaving the White House has been liberating. Bush made the remark in a rare public appearance yesterday addressing a graduating high school class in New Mexico. He told the students he feels like a heavy burden has been lifted every since he left the Oval Office -- Kiran.
CHETRY: I'd say that's pretty safe to say.
Well, EPA tests confirm that Chinese-made drywall contains sulfur as well as other chemicals not found in the American product. The defective wall borders believe to be causing health problems and forcing many families to leave their homes. It's affecting thousands of people in more than a dozen states.
It's a story that CNN's John Zarrella has been following closely. He joins us live in Miami right now.
So, I'm sure a lot of people are looking for answers this morning. First of all, do we know how widespread this is and what should homeowners do?
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Kiran, at this point, we do not know how widespread it is. According to the U.S. Gypsum Association, there was enough Chinese drywall imported in 2006, which was the big year that you could basically have built 30,000 complete homes. But that may not be the entire picture.
So, imagine this -- your home is unlivable. You have to move out. No one is taking responsibility. And only a few people are getting any help at all.
Well, the finger of blame is being pointed at a product made in China.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ZARRELLA (voice-over): Homeowners, frustrated, angry and desperate, packed a hearing in Coral Springs, Florida.
AMY MASSACHI, HOMEOWNER: Somebody has to step up and help everyone. I'm sad.
ZARRELLA: Amy Massachi and the others here live in homes built using drywall made in China. A drywall, they believe, is making them sick.
MASSACHI: I can't breathe. Every morning I wake up with sinus, allergy, my voice is hoarse. ZARRELLA: Thousands of homeowners in more than a dozen states are complaining of upper respiratory illnesses, a rotten egg smell in their homes, and electrical outlets and air conditioning coils corroded and covered in black.
MASSACHI: All of this was supposed to be brand new and I'm only in this house a year and a half. This is disgusting.
ZARRELLA: State and federal studies have found sulfur and other compounds in the Chinese product which are not found in U.S.-made drywall. Sulfur can cause corrosion. But officials say not enough testing has been done yet to say for sure the elements are causing illness and home damage. But at a Senate hearing in Washington Thursday, health officials said it was certainly possible.
DR. MICHAEL MCGEEHIN, U.S. CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL: Based on the information I've looked that came out of Louisiana and Florida, that there's no doubt that that corrosive material is causing health problems.
ZARRELLA: Some homes are already being gutted right down to the studs and rebuilt. Dozens of lawsuits have been filed against Chinese manufacturers. Knauf, a German company with affiliates in China, is being sued. They insist there's nothing wrong with their product.
KEN HALDIN, KNAUF PLASTERBOARD TIANJIN: Our independent tests including a toxicologist say that there is not an acute health concern or something that carries a risk with it.
ZARRELLA: The drywall was imported mostly in 2006. There wasn't enough U.S. product to satisfy demand following a bad hurricane season. A few builders and mortgage companies are working with homeowners but most are not.
Amy Massachi is now looking for a new place to live. It's tough on her family. Their dream house 18 months ago, now, only brings tears.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ZARRELLA: Now Massachi's mortgage company has just informed her that she's not going to have to make a mortgage payment for at least three months. And at least for Massachi, she's not in the same boat that many others, making the decision on whether to move out or to pay the both the mortgage payment and a rent payment someplace else -- Kiran.
CHETRY: All right. I know you've been looking into this and continuing to dig around and see what else we can find out. But what a terrible situation for those homeowners.
John, thanks.
ROBERTS: Christie Romans is here this morning "Minding Your Business" just in time for the holiday weekend. We are talking gas prices and they're going this way, right? CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: They are still going up, John. They are up some 17 percent in 24 days. I'm going to tell you why they're up. I'm going to tell you if they can keep rising what you can expect to pay this summer.
You know, a lot of you are pretty angry about this. So we're going to look at gas prices. Also, we're going to have the "Romans' Numeral" for you. And this one is pretty interesting. Breaking a very big barrier in corporate America. The rarified air of those executive suites.
Breaking the barrier. Let me tell you all about it when we come back.
ROBERTS: All right. The number is one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Twenty-two minutes after the hour. And Christine Romans here "Minding Your Business" this morning. Before we get going, we've got something for you.
ROMANS: What's this for?
ROBERTS: Typhoid Mary.
CHETRY: I know. I caught a little cold. I'm sorry. You know what it's like when you have two small children.
ROMANS: I know. You live in a petri dish, right?
CHETRY: Yes.
ROBERTS: Wow. OK, well...
CHETRY: Sorry. I don't want John to get sick right before he goes away. So take that on the plane with you.
ROMANS: I'm not going to use your laptop and I'm definitely washing my hands as soon as I'm out the set (ph).
CHETRY: You know what I have. Every time I blow my nose or touch anything, I wipe down. OK, guys? I'm sorry.
ROMANS: Kiran is a sterile environment wherever she goes.
I'm here to talk about gas prices that keep rising. Earlier this week, you guys, we found here and I told you that, you know, all the experts are telling me gas prices are not going to go up much more. Well, they keep going up. They're up 17 percent in 24 days, 33 cents in just a month.
Look, what does this mean for your wallet? A tank of gas costs almost $6.00 more today than it did a month ago. Six dollars is something you definitely feel. But look at that compared to last year; $3.83 is where we were last year. So this is actually a historic jump in gas prices. We've never gone so much so in such a short period of time. But it is nothing compared with what we saw last year in terms of going above $3 in the sustained, horrible move of that.
CHETRY: Are your experts revising what --
ROMANS: Now they are. Now they are. Tom (INAUDIBLE) at the oil price...
ROBERTS: It's worth the ceiling now.
CHETRY: Yes, $250 now. So -- and the government has said they thought the peak would be $2.30 this summer. But the bottom line here though is demand is not up.
You know, the fundamentals of the economy still are quite weak so people aren't using more oil. But, you know, you tend to see oil prices and gas prices rise, you know, this time of year so that's what we're seeing.
So don't call me a liar. I'm just saying that we've had a really big move.
ROBERTS: Just saying.
ROMANS: It hurts. And it going to -- they're going to keep rising but a lot of people think we're not going to see a whole lot more from here.
CHETRY: All right. Every day, Christine, by the way, brings us her "Romans' Numeral." This is a number that's driving one of the big stories about your money. So today's roman numeral, number one.
ROMANS: It's number one. And this has to do with breaking a very big barrier in corporate America in the Fortune 500. The number is one.
CHETRY: Don't tell me we have one person guessing. This is Bill Woodcox (ph), 17. He guessed on "amFIX Twitter -- our Twitter page. I think it's the National Asian Pacific Islander. He said that Asian Pacific Islander Heritage Month so the number is based on U.S. Fortune 500 companies with an Asian CEO.
ROMANS: No. But I didn't know was National Asian Pacific Islander Heritage Month.
ROBERTS: Now you do.
ROMANS: I learned something today.
ROBERTS: You sound surprise.
ROMANS: No. The number has to do with a woman named Ursula Burns who has been promoted from president of Xerox to the CEO effective July 1st. She will be the first African-American woman in history to run one of the Fortune 500 companies. It's the barrier broken -- very broken with Ursula Burns.
According to the "Wall Street Journal," she grew up in public housing in New York, got a masters degree in engineering and has run up the ranks at Xerox. And she replaces another woman at Xerox, Anne Mulcahy, who is another one of the rare women running a Fortune 500 company.
So there are about a dozen women running these 500 companies, a dozen women running them and five African-American men running Fortune 500 companies. You can see that there's still the rarified air of those big companies still, by in large, white men running these companies but breaking the barrier here with Ursula Burns.
ROBERTS: What month is it again?
CHETRY: National Asian Pacific Heritage Month.
ROMANS: Asian Pacific Islander
ROBERTS: Heritage Month.
ROMANS: So if you didn't learn something from the "Romans' Numeral," you've learned something from our Twitter. So twitter@amFIX.com.
ROBERTS: Fantastic.
ROMANS: Great.
ROBERTS: Thanks, Christine.
CHETRY: All right. Well, former Vice President Dick Cheney not walking off the public stage quietly. He's unapologetic and still talking about why he believes the Bush administration policies on war and intelligence are the best way to keep our country safe.
We're going to be talking with Liz Cheney, the daughter of the former vice president who also served in the State Department during the Bush administration.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's part silo, part house. But mainly, it's environmentally friendly and about 70 percent more energy efficient than your average home.
According to Daniel Wallach with Greensburg GreenTown, his organization is helping the city find sustainable solutions as it rebuilds and in some ways reinvents itself.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We call it a 100-year-plus building. It's that durable.
NGUYEN: You dropped a Ford Escort on the roof of this building?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, twice. And there was absolutely no damage.
NGUYEN: At all.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At all.
NGUYEN: It helped prove these homes can withstand the kind of wind and debris created by an F-5 tornado.
This is what a storm of that magnitude did to Greensburg in May 2007, killing 11 people and destroying 90 percent of the town. Today, the view is much different. 50 percent of the city is rebuilt, and it's coming back green.
MIKE ESTES, GREENSBURG JOHN DEERE DEALERSHIP: I think we have the opportunity to show the nation and the world there is a new way to build here.
NGUYEN: Owner Mike Estes says they've invested in energy- efficient technology.
ESTES: The very wind that destroyed this town we're using to rebuild this town.
NGUYEN: Obviously, it costs significantly more to build this way. But in return, Estes estimates his business will save about $25,000 a year in energy costs. And for many here, that's a big part of what it means to go green.
Betty Nguyen, CNN, Greensburg, Kansas.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHETRY: A gorgeous shot of New York Harbor this morning. There you see the Statue of Liberty and the sun making the water look bright blue and just making the whole scene look extra beautiful this morning. Sixty-two degrees right now here in New York City. It's going up to a high of 89. A lot of sunshine here in Manhattan today.
Right now, it is 30 minutes past the hour. We check our top stories.
Republicans vowing to keep the pressure on Nancy Pelosi, House speaker, to explain exactly how the CIA misled her. House Minority Leader John Boehner says he's disappointed that Democrats rejected his request for an investigation into Pelosi's claim that the CIA did not tell her the truth about waterboarding back in 2002. He's vowing to continue looking into that charge.
Health officials in Mexico City ending their swine flu alert. Mexico City's mayor saying, quote, "We can relax. There's no need to wear mask anymore now that there have been no new infections for a week." The Mexico Health Department did confirm three more deaths yesterday, raising the nationwide toll to 78.
Meanwhile in New York, a sharp spike in students showing flu-like symptoms prompted the city to shut down two more schools. Thirty-one city schools will be closed today.
And a time-honored tradition at Arlington National Cemetery. Soldiers from the Army's elite 3rd U.S. Infantry placing more than 260,000 flags at the foot of each and every tombstone. The flags-in ceremony has taken place every Memorial Day since 1948 to honor our fallen heroes - John.
ROBERTS: Great tradition.
It was the national security debate that we never had last election season. President Obama and former Vice President Dick Cheney dueling over how to handle terrorism. The former vice president offered a direct rebuttal to President Obama's policies, saying that they make America less safe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
D. CHENEY: To completely rule out enhanced interrogation in the future is unwise in the extreme. It is recklessness cloaked in righteousness and would make the American people less safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Joining me to talk more about this is the daughter of the former vice president, Liz Cheney. She's also a former deputy assistant secretary of state for Near Eastern affairs.
Liz, it's good to see you this morning. Thanks for coming in.
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE FOR NEAR EASTERN AFFAIRS: Thank you. Nice to be here, John. Thanks for having me.
ROBERTS: So, as you heard your father, the former vice president, said that America is less safe under the Obama administration policies. The American public seems to have a different opinion though. Recent CNN Opinion Research Corporation poll, out yesterday actually, 63 percent of respondents say Obama policies move the country in the right direction, 39 percent say Republicans.
Your father would appear to be sailing into a headwind.
L. CHENEY: Well, I think it obviously depends on what poll you look at. And, you know, clearly, this actually is not about polls. I think the vast majority of the American people believe that it's important, for example, if we were faced with a ticking time bomb situation, where we had a terrorist like Khalid Sheik Mohammed who had information that could prevent attacks on the homeland that could save American lives, that a president ought to use every legal tool at his disposal to get that information.
And what President Obama has done is released memos that lay out in great detail some of those techniques. He's really released those to the terrorists, so they now can train to them. And, you know, I can cite you poll numbers showing that, you know, 58 percent of American people believe that that act in and of itself has made us less safe. But it's important to point out it's not about politics, it really is about the substance of how do we defend the nation.
ROBERTS: But on the memos, I mean, weren't most of those, if not all of those techniques, already widely known? You know, the grand daddy of all of those techniques was waterboarding and we've known about that for years.
L. CHENEY: You know, there's a big difference between sort of a general knowledge of types of techniques and legal memos themselves that lay out this is what the U.S. government will do, these are the limits of what the U.S. government will do.
And, frankly, you know, you had five -- the current and then four former CIA directors -- asked the president not to release the memos because they understood the costs to our intelligence operatives, to our intelligence operations.
So, I think that, you know, it's a little bit disingenuous to say, well, people knew already. If that were the case, I don't think we would have had all those CIA directors saying, please don't do this, Mr. President.
ROBERTS: But another point that's made, Liz, is that a lot of these techniques already had been shelved. And David Brooks of the "New York Times," and he's no liberal...
L. CHENEY: Well, that's questionable.
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERTS: He certainly would seem to be on the conservative side of things. He used to be a liberal years ago.
L. CHENEY: We'll call him a "New York Times" conservative.
ROBERTS: There you are.
He argues that the vice president is actually attacking the Bush administration when he talks about these things, because they had already started to reverse some of the policies that they had in place. They weren't using waterboarding or some of those enhanced interrogation techniques anymore. They also wanted to close Gitmo, though they couldn't figure out how to do it.
He writes, quote, "In his speech on Thursday, he repeated in public a lot of the same arguments he had been making within the Bush White House as the policy decisions went more and more the other way. The inauguration of Barack Obama has simply not marked a dramatic shift in the substance of American anti-terror policy. It has marked a shift in the public credibility of that policy."
So, is -- to some degree, is your father arguing against things that happened between 2005 and 2009 in his own administration?
L. CHENEY: Not at all. I think what you saw in the Bush administration was, first of all, an adjustment on things like military commissions once the Supreme Court issued some rulings that I think were ill-advised rulings, but became the law of the land. So, you saw an adjustment in those policies.
You did see also at some point, and I don't think anybody knows quite when, we didn't need to rely anymore on the enhanced interrogation program. We got to a point where we had the kind of intelligence that that program was needed for back in the very early days after the attacks of 9/11.
But I would point out there's a big difference that it sounds like David misses. And that is that even though we stopped some of those techniques, we did not release the information about the techniques to the enemy. So we kept the possibility open that in the future if the nation is facing a dire emergency, a possibility of attack, a president could use those techniques. President Obama has foreclosed that option going forward.
ROBERTS: One of the big arguments, too, is what do you do with the detainees in Guantanamo Bay if you do get around to closing it down. President Obama yesterday made the case that there are places in the United States that could hold them and hold them safely. Let's listen to what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Lindsey Graham said, the idea that we cannot find a place to securely house 250 plus detainees within the United States is not rational.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: She didn't hear quite the very beginning of that. He was saying as Republican Senator Lindsey Graham said you've got to be able to find a place. So, he's got some Republican support for this.
L. CHENEY: Not much, 90-6 senators vote against him in the Senate.
ROBERTS: Senator John -- I mean a lot of those Democrats. Senator John McCain may also be malleable on this issue. But here's the real core of the issue -- is there a legitimate reason why you can't put these guys in a place like supermax, where they can be isolated from the general prison population?
L. CHENEY: Well, a lot of legitimate reasons. And one, the president knows but didn't talk about in his speech is once these guys are in U.S. federal penitentiaries, then you've got judges across the United States who have got jurisdiction over them. And the president talks about it as though it's only a question of can they escape.
It's actually a question of whether you're going to have a judge in a court in the United States say, well, I don't believe this guy should be under indefinite detention, show me your evidence, why can you keep him? And in many cases, producing that evidence will require that we produce classified information.
So you could very well have a situation where judges then order the release of those terrorists, not to mention the fact that they'll radicalize the prison population and there's not a single member of Congress across this country who's willing to say, sure, bring them into my district.
ROBERTS: That is if they have access to the general population, but they could be kept in isolation.
L. CHENEY: Well, but I think the radicalization possibility is a very clear one as is the release by a federal court order.
ROBERTS: It's certainly something that the FBI director mentioned this week.
Liz Cheney, it's great to see you. Thanks for coming in.
L. CHENEY: Thanks. Glad to be here. Appreciate it.
ROBERTS: Appreciate it. Always good to catch up with you.
L. CHENEY: Thank you.
ROBERTS: Kiran.
CHETRY: Well, again, the debate over relocating the Gitmo detainees has many members of Congress saying not in my backyard. But there's a small Montana town saying bring them here. We'll take you to that place that could become Gitmo west.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: President Obama is defending his plan to close the Guantanamo Bay prison, and telling Americans they have nothing to fear from having hard-core terrorist suspects on U.S. soil.
Well, people in one Montana town don't need any convincing. They're embracing the idea. In fact, they're hoping that Gitmo detainees will call their town home.
CNN's Jeanne Meserve explains why.
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: John, Kiran, the heart in Montana, population 3400 is opening its doors to some people no one else wants.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE (voice-over): This could be Gitmo west. Right now, it's a prison with no prisoners in tiny Hardin, Montana. City officials want to fill it with detainees from Guantanamo Bay, terrorists like self-proclaimed 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed.
GREG SMITH, ECONOMIC DEVELOPING DIRECTOR: It would bring jobs. Believe it or not, it would even bring hope and opportunity.
MESERVE: This is the poorest county in Montana, and the $27 million prison has turned into a white elephant. But not everyone wants detainees here.
DARLEEN MCMILLEN, HARDIN, MONTANA RESIDENT: I would move out of Hardin. My son is in the military. He came back from Afghanistan. He said that people have no respect for any human life, even their own.
MESERVE: Some in the community worried that if detainees were put here, they would attract other radicals to the area, or even worse, escape.
SMITH: The person that wants to make it an issue, we would be happy to lock them up and see how long it takes them to come out. And then if they can, I'll buy them coffee at the coffee shop. Not a problem.
MESERVE: There are plenty of cameras and wiring for more, and row upon row of razor wire.
(on camera): They're even ready for trouble here. They've got gas masks and riot helmets, shields, batons. They even have guns.
(voice-over): Because there are no prisoners, Glenn and Rae Perkins got laid off after moving to Hardin to take guard jobs. They oppose moving detainees here even though it might mean getting their jobs back.
RAE PERKINS, FORMER PRISON GUARD: Bottom line, I just want the facility to open. But no, I don't really want Gitmo in my backyard.
MESERVE: But if Guantanamo was closed, detainees will have to go somewhere.
SMITH: Coming into a community that really wants them is going to be a lot easier than go to one that doesn't.
MESERVE: And this may be the only city in the country that's ready, willing, and able to take them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
MESERVE: Though federal officials are on the hunt for somewhere to put the detainees, Hardin hasn't heard from Washington -- not yet.
John, Kiran, back to you.
ROBERTS: Jeanne Meserve for us this morning.
Jeanne, thanks very much.
Their shouts turned heads and made them a hit on YouTube.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Secretary...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: War criminal! War criminal! War criminal!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: But this morning, the group that has caused former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld at the White House Correspondents Association Dinner is in the crosshairs of our independent analyst John Avalon. We've got the wingnuts of the week just ahead on the Most News in the Morning.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Starting the Memorial Day weekend here. It's 46 minutes after the hour on the Most News in the Morning. What's the weather going to be like across the country if you're traveling?
Rob Marciano monitoring the severe weather. He's at the Weather Center in Atlanta.
(WEATHER REPORT)
CHETRY: Well, it happens every week, you can count on it. People on the far right and the far left doing or saying something off of the wall. And they get the dubious honor from our own John Avalon, our independent analyst of being called The Wingnuts of the Week. So, who got it this week? He'll show you.
Also, they are known for prowling around cafes and bars. Are they really prowling? Come on, give them a break. Cougars taking over your TV?
Cougars, that's what they call older women who date younger men. Well, it's the next big thing in entertainment. Carol Costello has a look.
It's 49 minutes past the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning.
It's time once again for our weekly segment that we call "Wingnut of the Week." It's a title that independent analyst John Avlon gives to someone of the far right and the far left, who he says is trying to divide us rather than unite us. His motto "The center is under attack and it's time to take it back."
John Avlon is also a columnist for the DailyBeast.com and he joins us this morning.
You had a lot to choose from this week...
JOHN AVLON, COLUMNIST, DAILYBEAST.COM: Yes. CHETRY: ...from the real big week of debate over war, interrogation, Guantanamo Bay, but let's get to this week's wingnut. You picked one particular protester at President Obama's commencement speech that he gave at Notre Dame last Sunday. His name -- let's check it out, Randall Terry. He's the president of the Society for Truth & Justice. And let's listen to what he said during an interview when asked why President Obama should be prevented from speaking at Notre Dame because of his views on abortion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RANDALL TERRY, PRESIDENT, SOCIETY FOR TRUTH & JUSTICE: To invite him and to give him honor in this manner would be like inviting Pilate to speak after he ordered Jesus to be crucified.
If you and I agree with him on every issue, but he just wanted to kill Jews, would you say, listen, he builds great roads, he's got great economic policies, let's forget that Jewish thing for now.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: All right. There you go. So, why did you pick him as the wingnut of the week?
AVLON: You know, talk about demonizing people who disagree with you. I mean, the money shot comparison to wingnut politics is comparing your opposition to Hitler were now Pontius Pilate. I mean, Randall Terry manage to do both to our president in under a minute. That is a real wingnut move. That is all-time wingnut stuff.
CHETRY: We also had some pretty disturbing video as well of him protesting at Notre Dame, which you say really reaches a new low. Let's take a look at it and you can tell us what's going on here.
AVLON: Sure.
This video -- this video shows Randall Terry putting fake blood in his hands and putting on an Obama mask to scare children who had been set up for an ostensibly pro-child photo-op.
I mean, that is so far out crazy town callousness. I think that's just a new low. And the irony is all of this is done, you know, before they even heard what the president had to say. And President Obama's speech was all about finding and forging new common ground even and especially on these cultural issues.
So -- but the wingnuts aren't interested on common ground. They're here to polarize and protest. And that's why Randall Terry is this week's wingnut of the week.
CHETRY: All right. He certainly brought -- he brought out all the stops for that one this week.
All right. Let's go to this week's wingnut on the left. You selected the anti-war organization, we've heard about it before, Code Pink. They've got a lot of attention a couple of weeks ago. We've added the wingnuts, by the way, the hats, we have a very creative graphics department. That's what a wingnut actually is, you know, in terms of hardware parlance.
AVLON: Yes.
CHETRY: OK. Anyway, so, Code Pink got a lot of attention a couple of weeks ago for protesting former Defense chief Donald Rumsfeld at the White House Correspondents' Dinner. Let's listen to what it was like there at the Washington Hilton as he was walking in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED CODE PINK PROTESTER: Criminal! War criminal! War criminal! Arrest this man! Arrest the war criminal! I wish I had some handcuffs right now to arrest this man.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHETRY: All right. They also attempted to assault Condoleezza Rice, former Secretary of State, with blood-stained hands and they were also breaking up the fake blood as well.
AVLON: Yes, yes. There seems to be a theme here. But, you know, this really on a day that President Obama was being criticized on the right for his policies in the war on terror. Code Pink saw fit to make it the national day of action on Afghanistan and do a Net- route protest across the Web.
This is just a continuation of their MO. They have protested, you know, Marine recruiting stations in Berkeley. They've apologists for Venezuelan dictator Hugo Chavez and now they want to immediately withdraw from Afghanistan and Iraq.
And what a lot of folks on the far left are getting frustrated with -- the Obama administration's policy of moving forward with Afghanistan, this doubling down of troops. That's been one of the greatest successes of this administration. And anyone who thinks that you can achieve peace and justice by ceding Afghanistan to the Taliban, especially if you're ostensibly a pro-woman organization, that is naive in the extreme.
CHETRY: And so you thought it was important to basically highlight these two groups of protesters as wingnuts this week. Explain that.
AVLON: Well, I think, we are in a stage in the country where people want to move to the center. Independents are out in greater number than ever before. But these folks, protesters on the far left and the far right, what they don't understand is that they are their own side's worst enemy. When they try to intentionally polarize, all they do is alienate people from their cause. They alienate the moderate majority. And these folks -- America's built on a foundation of reaching out, of deliberate faith and persuasion, not violent polarization. That's what these folks personify.
CHETRY: We also have the right to protest, though. AVLON: We do.
CHETRY: So, if they want to go out there and do this, they have every right to. But if you want to call them out, you have every right to as well.
AVLON: Obligation to call them out as well. Absolutely. Of course, some balance here.
ROBERTS: Defining First Amendment thing.
CHETRY: Exactly.
ROBERTS: I love the hats, too. It's kind of the ACE hardware version of the mouse ear, is it not? They look great.
CHETRY: Thanks, John.
ROBERTS: From reality TV to movies, and now network primetime. It seems the whole country is going cougar crazy. But some ladies are not too happy with that particular word. We'll tell you why.
It's 56 and a half minutes after the hour.
