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Nancy Grace

Police Interviews With Casey Anthony`s Former Lovers

Aired May 22, 2009 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight the desperate search for 2- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct-taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple-bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.

Tonight, secret police files inside tot mom`s murder one investigation, tot mom`s parade of boyfriends, fiance, live-ins and lovers on video, revealing tot mom`s non-stop party lifestyle, her thoughts, her movements before and after little Caylee`s disappearance, tot mom pointing the finger at the very same exes, trying to implicate them in Caylee`s disappearance. Also on video, tot mom`s brother unwittingly opening up on undercover camera.

Tonight, more stunning raw video and audiotape found inside tot mom`s murder investigation.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Padilla tell you how you killed the baby? Did he say how they were putting that together?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY`S EX-FIANCE: I think he did, but I don`t remember.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Try to remember for me because that`s pretty crucial.

GRUND: I think he may have said that I drowned Caylee. I think that`s what they`re trying to say.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That you intentionally drowned Caylee?

GRUND: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was that supposed to have happened?

GRUND: I think in the pool in the back yard.

Lee, shortly after my second interview with Orange County, confided in me that the reason that he thought -- Cindy confided in him that the reason he thought she felt that Casey ran off was there was a big fight between the two of them and the fight concerned Casey not being home a lot and not bringing Caylee by. It got into a very heated argument which turned physical, and Cindy started choking Casey.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was there anyone else in the house when this happened?

GRUND: He didn`t actually expand upon that. As far as I understood from what he told me, it was just Cindy and Casey.

We went back over to my apartment to pick up her car. And I didn`t get to tell you this, but her dad pulled me aside and said, Look, I don`t know what`s going on between the two of you, but you`re a really good guy, Jesse, and you`ve got a lot going for you and you treat her really well and you treat my granddaughter extremely well. But you don`t need to be around Casey because she has some problems that we need to get her help for.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Such as what?

GRUND: He wouldn`t expand upon it. The only thing he further on said was, She`s not a good person right now, she`s not in the right place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Someone had told you there was maybe some posturing towards laying some blame on you?

GRUND: Absolutely.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us about that, please?

GRUND: I was told by an individual who was working with the Anthony family, who had got to sit in on a couple of the attorney meetings, that Casey was telling her attorneys, and Cindy was backing her up on this, that I killed Caylee, that I planted the evidence in the car, that I had access to the car because I had keys, and that I was framing her because of my obsession with Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Access to the car because of keys. Why would they say that?

GRUND: She was -- her reasoning for me being able to have access to her car is saying that I have a copy of her car keys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you?

GRUND: I don`t. I`ve never had a copy of her car keys.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So your understanding from this person is the family`s posturing towards -- they know that the child is deceased, but they`re posturing toward the defense?

GRUND: Correct. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And who told you this?

GRUND: Well...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s out, brother, because I`ve got to type what you already said off tape.

GRUND: OK. All right. Leonard Padilla told me that.

September 2005, Casey told me she didn`t feel comfortable with Lee being around Caylee. When I asked why, she said that Caylee -- recently -- she wouldn`t expand upon recently, I assumed it was before Caylee was born -- Casey and Lee were at the house alone together and Casey -- and Lee attempted to have sex with her.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you get an indication what "attempted to have sex" meant?

GRUND: There was never any explanation. My impression was that somehow, he was trying to pressure her into it somehow. That was my impression from what she was saying. I didn`t have anything else concrete on it. And it was so vile and disgusting to me that I didn`t really want to go any further into it than what she was telling me.

I woke up, tried to get up. She was kind of draped (INAUDIBLE) her legs were (INAUDIBLE) to me and her head was on the sofa. So I just picked up her legs, moved them to the side while she rested. As I got up, her eyes popped open. It looked like she was just staring straight. And I said her name a couple times. And then she started foaming at the mouth and shaking uncontrollably. And from my limited first aid experience, it looked like a grand mal seizure to me. So I moved a table out of the way, turned her on her side. Her lips turned slightly blue. She continued seizing for probably about, I don`t know, six to eight seconds. When she got done, she let out this sigh, and then her eyes popped back open again and then closed and she was non-responsive.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You keep saying it`s a seizure, but you don`t know for sure it was a seizure, right?

GRUND: I don`t know for sure if it was grand mal seizure or not. I mean, the things that she did, I don`t know how she would have recreated over again. The lips turning that slight shade of blue, the foaming at the mouth, the way her body was uncontrollably shaking, the non-responsiveness -- I don`t know how she would have been able to fake all of that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Could it have been an overdose?

GRUND: I`ve never seen an overdose before. So...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Was it the first time you`ve ever seen her...

GRUND: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... have a seizure or whatever?

GRUND: Absolutely. Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Was it the last time also?

GRUND: Last time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Had she ever told you what the results of the -- what came out of the hospital? Did anyone ever say what it was?

GRUND: They said she didn`t have syphilis. She wasn`t pregnant. And she didn`t have -- she didn`t have epilepsy. They said it -- she claimed to me that it may have been because she drank too many Red Bulls.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When was the last time you talked to Lee?

GRUND: Last time I talked to Lee? Last week.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the nature of that conversation?

GRUND: Short, sweet. I just -- I called him just to check on him, see how he was doing, because since the conversation that we had about the misinformation thing, I`ve -- I have tried to keep things very civil between the two of us. I don`t want to make an enemy out of him because he doesn`t seem to be an enemy towards us right now.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you say "us," who do you mean, "us"?

GRUND: Me and my dad, my family, whatsoever at all. So I actually -- we`ll speak briefly on the phone, just kind of talk about, you know, How`s things going with your family, how are you doing, you know, how`s the efforts to find Caylee going, because I still -- you know, until we locate Caylee having a body, I still want to believe in my heart of hearts that she`s out there somewhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is Lee telling you?

GRUND: Just that they work hard on -- you know, he`s trying to keep his family together because, you know, Cindy Anthony is not mentally stable and George is starting to come apart at the seams, and he`s trying to keep everybody together.

I have a wealth of Casey Anthony information just because of how close I`ve been to her for an extended period of time and I`ve seen that family dynamic. You know, Cindy -- Cindy is -- Cindy Anthony is -- I think I mentioned, you know, at one point during our relationship, I fell asleep on top of the covers while Casey and I were engaged, and Cindy came home and immediately just went off and started screaming at me from the kitchen. And from that point on, it seemed like that woman`s had some sort of vendetta against me. So anything that comes out of her mouth in regards to me -- I just wouldn`t be surprised by anything that she says.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Do you know if Casey has talked to anyone since she`s been out of jail on the computer, through IM, aside from Dakota? We know that she kind of corresponded with Dakota. Do you know of anyone else that she`s corresponded to?

GRUND: Well, she hasn`t corresponded to me at all. I`ve blocked her on everything, MySpace, FaceBook, AOL Instant Messenger. And she doesn`t have my phone number. So she hasn`t reached out to me or any of my friends, and I can`t -- I don`t know of anybody else. Before I blocked her on AOL Instant Messenger, though, I did see her on line on AOL Instant Messenger the day after she got out of jail. So as soon as I saw that, I realized I needed to block her on AOL as soon as possible.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You said something there about maybe this being something to be spiteful towards Mom, this whole thing, maybe Casey being spiteful towards Mom. What`s that about?

GRUND: Well, I -- I believe she has -- she`s always had a kind of love-hate relationship with Cindy. I mean, for the -- and if you ask my dad or anybody else, when we were together, when we were engaged, she didn`t want to be anything like her.

I believe it goes all the way back to when Caylee was born. When Caylee was born, Casey wasn`t the first one to get to hold Caylee. It was Cindy. And Casey`s even voiced to me in the past that Cindy has actually called herself Mommy to Caylee in front of Casey before.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Repeat that?

GRUND: Cindy has called herself -- referred to herself as Mommy to Caylee, even while Casey is there.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what about the chloroform? You had said something to me about that, your thoughts on that.

GRUND: From my personal perspective? Nothing professional.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And knowing her...

GRUND: Nothing professional about it. She doesn`t have a degree in chemistry. The only thing she probably knows about chloroform is what she`s seen in the movies. So I can`t think of any other reason for there to be chloroform in the car unless she was planning on -- she had or was planning on using it on someone or something.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And this is completely speculative, but if something did occur, where do you think she would have put that child?

GRUND: My first guess was the house. But again, the house has obviously been searched, so it`s not there anymore. You know, she knew that area of town pretty well. But I think she would stay familiar and close to home.

Do I believe it`s possible that someone -- that Caylee did have a nanny and Casey lied to her enough about her family that she thinks that she`s protecting them right now, that she thinks she`s protecting Caylee? I don`t see why not.

We can all tell that from the last couple years, Casey is a very effective liar. I think I`d use the word "diabolical" to describe the way she lies.

Could she have ripped off the wrong person there or pissed off the wrong person? Absolutely. Could she have become a drug user to appease Tony? She became a Yankee fan to appease me, and she hates the Yankees. She does things to chameleon -- she`s like a chameleon when she`s with a guy. You know, Ricardo smokes pot. She starts smoking pot when she`s with Ricardo, you know? My family`s Christian. She started doing things in regards to religious practices with us to fit in with our family.

I never -- I didn`t know enough about Caylee and the pool. I knew that they liked -- I knew that Caylee loved the pool, but I`d never actually seen Caylee in the pool. And I was under the understanding that I actually had to move the ladder because Caylee kept trying to get into the pool and things of that nature. I believe at any point in time, something possibly could have accidentally happened to Caylee. And if something accidentally happened to Caylee, I literally believe that Casey would have an emotional breakdown, a mental breakdown to the point where I almost believe that she would take Caylee and put her somewhere and then tell herself a new story, a new reality of what happened to her.

Caylee loved that playhouse. That was like her own little house. She loved everything about it. She had her own little phone in there. She had a little kitchen set. I mean, she absolutely and totally loved the playhouse. Every time I`d go outside and play with Caylee anytime I got the chance, right to the playhouse every time. She spent a lot of time out there with her grandparents and with Casey. And I believe that Casey, if something would have happened to her, that would have been the first place that she would have put Caylee if she wanted to place Caylee`s body somewhere.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) blurts out something, kind of puts you in an embarrassing way. Can you tell me about that again?

GRUND: Her and Casey started having an argument about something, and I stuck up for Casey. Please don`t do this while I`m here, don`t talk to her like that, you know I love your daughter. And then she immediately just throws Casey under the bus -- for a very real term, just lays her out there. How do you want to be with somebody who`s got no future? She didn`t even go back to get her high school education. You know, she`s got a job at a place where she doesn`t really even make enough money to support Caylee. I`m the one supporting Caylee.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 27th, Casey called you?

GRUND: Correct.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Worried about you.

GRUND: Right.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Due to your situation?

GRUND: Correct. Yes, sir.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And she wanted you to go to Fusion?

GRUND: Correct. Yes, sir. I declined. And I asked her -- well, first I asked her, Where`s Caylee? Why? You know, you`re going to Fusion. At this point, I know she had had a falling out with her mother. How did - - who`s watching Caylee? And that`s when she tells me Caylee is with the nanny at the beach.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where were we, the 4th?

GRUND: Yes, the 4th. I received a phone call from Casey from her cell phone at 3:17 PM, at which time she asked me -- the first question she asked me, what am I doing for the 4th of July, which I told her I was spending the day with my family. And I asked her about the text message she`d sent me the day before. Her exact words to me were, I don`t want to talk about it. If I -- I`ll probably talk to you about it later, once I get drunk.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: Next, tot mom`s ex-lover, Tony Lazzaro, her live-in at the time Caylee goes missing. What does he reveal to police? All caught on tape.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Tot mom`s boyfriend and live-in, Tony Lazzaro, tells all to investigators on tape, describing the day tot mom abandons her car at a local check cashing shop, her long history of stealing, and finally, her decision not to tell a soul for a solid month Caylee was gone.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

TONY LAZZARO, CASEY ANTHONY`S EX-BOYFRIEND: She would wake up -- or wake me up either in the middle of the night, or I would just wake up in the middle of the night, and see that she was sweaty in bed. And I would ask her why, and she said that she would have nightmares -- she was having a nightmare or something, and that would bring up the nightmare pertaining to our relationship.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So how often did she wake up like that?

LAZZARO: Actually, she would actually be -- I would say that would happen a couple times.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: I would say maybe two, three, four times.

What happened was, I was just sitting there with my roommate, Nathan. We were playing video games, and she -- and Casey was sitting there at the couch also on the laptop. And then all of a sudden, there was a knock at the door and I said, Come in. And there was Amy just standing there with a miserable face. And we all looked confused, and then Casey then proceeded to go outside and was -- me and my roommate went back to playing video games.

Then I would say about a half hour later, Casey and her mother, Cindy Anthony, came to the -- Casey stormed in and looked like she was in tears, and her mom said, Get your things. Let -- you`re coming with me. and Casey said, No, I`m coming back. She said, OK, but I`m coming back. And she goes, No, get all your things.

The grandmother said -- made a comment to me while I was sitting on the couch because she was waiting at the door, and I said -- (INAUDIBLE) because I never -- I`ve seen pictures of the woman but I never met her. So I was saying -- you know, being friendly, like, you know, Hello, you can come in, like, because she was waiting at the door.

And she came in and she goes, I hope you`re rich because Casey`s going to take all your money and leave you high and dry. And me and my roommate were just looking at her, like, Wait, what? What? I have no -- what are you talking about, like, because I had no idea about her with, I guess, the -- I guess the whole situation with the mother, Amy and Casey were about the money situation. I guess that`s what they talked about because that`s why I guess Amy was there with the grandmother, but -- so that happened. She said that. And then Casey said, Shut up, and they -- she stormed outside and the grandmother followed her.

I then received a call after that, maybe 20 minutes or half an hour, from an unknown number that I didn`t -- I mean, it wasn`t -- it didn`t show up "unknown," but it showed up a 407 number. And it was Casey`s brother, Lee. He addressed himself -- introduced himself on the phone and told me what was going on, how she admitted to him that she didn`t know where Caylee was and that she hasn`t seen Caylee for 31 days. And after that, everything went downhill.

I found out the -- the night of the 15th when Casey actually was at my apartment and her mother and Amy showed up to my house. They left. And I had no idea. So I looked up Amy`s phone in Casey`s phone and gave her a call, and she notified me to check my bank account and everybody else in my apartment to check their bank account because she took money from her.

She actually used to say that she didn`t -- that she was getting ready to not live at her house anymore with her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where was she going to go?

LAZZARO: No particular place.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

LAZZARO: She was just looking to move out because she was 22 and wanting to get her own place.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: When we come back, audiotapes surface of the cop who lies about his affair with tot mom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: The cop fired for having a secret love affair with tot mom comes clean to investigators, and it`s all on tape.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

ANTHONY RUSCIANO, CASEY`S FORMER LOVER: I met her -- like I said, I don`t know exact dates -- when we went to the firing range. One of the days with Jesse, she met us with her child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jesse being?

RUSCIANO: Grund.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

RUSCIANO: Her ex-fiance. He was in the academy with me.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

RUSCIANO: I think he met us at the Subway on I think it`s Moss Park Road, the one that`s right there by the Publix.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

RUSCIANO: And they sat on one side and I sat with four or five guys on the other side. And after that, probably a couple weeks after that, I was working downtown at Latitudes. It`s a bar off Church Street. And she came in -- I think -- I guess she came in with him. And they were just hanging all over each other and he was flaunting her around, trying -- I guess showing her off, whatever he was doing. I saw her a few days after that. So I want to say it was in a week, a week of the beginning of January. And we went and ate at the Hiawassee Alehouse, the one off Hiawassee and 50.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

RUSCIANO: And then we hooked up after that.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Meaning you hooked up -- what do you mean you "hooked up"?

RUSCIANO: We had sex.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You had sex. OK. Where did you guys have sex?

RUSCIANO: My apartment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your apartment. OK. And that would have been -- when would that have been?

RUSCIANO: January.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During January?

RUSCIANO: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Do you know where her daughter was at that time?

RUSCIANO: Absolutely not.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As for the sex, let`s -- Hey, let`s do it right now, when it is as good as it has been. I need it -- I told you I need a routine. But it`s not my main concern for seeing you. Once in three weeks is a tease. Are you meaning...

(CROSSTALK)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You hadn`t had sex with her in three weeks? Is that...

RUSCIANO: I`m not sure if it either having sex with her or talking with her, but you know, it`s, like, when you talk to somebody and all of a sudden they just disappear off the face of the planet for a while.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

RUSCIANO: That`s why I said it was like a tease.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see. OK.

Down here, Casey Marie, she`s -- you`re telling her, Come over and I`ll cook. Ha. Want me to bring the little snothead?

RUSCIANO: I didn`t say anything, like -- it was like...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I understand that. But she -- Casey seems to be asking you here if you want her to bring the little snothead. I`m assuming there the little snothead...

(CROSSTALK)

RUSCIANO: Yes. The child.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. So you believe that when she`s referring to the little snothead here, it`s about her daughter.

RUSCIANO: Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did she ever make any comments to you about how stressful it was or how she was dealing or coping with having a child?

RUSCIANO: Just that -- how do I put this? You know how like when you`re young and you have a child -- I don`t know because I don`t have kids. But when you`re young and you have a kid, that it`s harder to, like, go out and have a good time, or anything along those lines.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What are your ideas about this nanny, having known her or...

RUSCIANO: What are my...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, does she exist?

RUSCIANO: Personally, what do I think?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

RUSCIANO: You`re just asking my personal opinion about the whole thing or just about the nanny?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The nanny. She exist?

RUSCIANO: I don`t think so.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

GRACE: When we come back, tot mom`s former fiance, Jesse Grund, the man she names as Caylee`s biological father. Does tot mom try to frame him for Caylee`s murder?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MRS. ANTHONY, CASEY`S MOTHER: How about Jesse? He`s been real close. What do you want me to tell Jesse?

CASEY ANTHONY, TOT MOM: I would like Jesse to stay as far away from you guys as possible. I`m saying that wholeheartedly, and as calmly as possible. I don`t know how much I trust him right now. And I even told Lee that. Lee`s going to investigate a few people for me. In my gut I don`t know if I can trust him.

M. ANTHONY: Has Jesse ever watched Caylee in the last month or so while he was off work?

C. ANTHONY: No.

M. ANTHONY: OK.

C. ANTHONY: The last time he watched Caylee was at his parents` house when she was a baby. So that was 2006.

M. ANTHONY: OK. You know, his dad has been trying to reach out to your dad. His mom sent me an e-mail and said tell us that they, as much as the differences that they had with you, they still know that you`re a good mom and that, you know, they want Caylee back as well. So I want you to know that.

C. ANTHONY: I appreciate that. I mean, coming from his family that means a lot. As far as Jesse as an individual is very questionable for me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Joining me right now in a primetime exclusive appearance is Jesse Grund. He is the ex-fiance of the tot mom, Casey Anthony. As you know, she at one point told him he was the biological father of little Caylee. He is being represented by veteran trial lawyer Darryl Cohen, who is joining us from New York. The Anthony`s go on to mention your name to police. At this point what are your thoughts?

JESSE GRUND, CASEY ANTHONY`S FORMER FIANCE: When I heard that they had mentioned my name to police and when I heard the jailhouse tapes of what she had said, I was fairly shocked. I thought Casey and I had maintained some sort of trusting friendship over the years after our relationship had broken up. I didn`t for one second think that either her or her parents would suspect me of doing any harm to Caylee whatsoever at all.

GRACE: Is that how you interpreted their comments, that they were naming you as a potential suspect to police?

GRUND: Well, their actual statement to police, Cindy does directly mention me as the person she thought was Zanny, the person who was watching Caylee. And that was after she actually had the meeting with Casey in the jailhouse.

GRACE: Why do you believe that tot mom would go to the trouble of saying I don`t trust him?

GRUND: That`s really something you`re going to have to ask her. Nancy, to be honest with you, I don`t know that person. The person that I was with and the person that sits in that jail, I don`t know her.

GRACE: Tell me about the person you thought you were with. How is she different from the tot mom we`ve come to know?

GRUND: Casey was a totally different person when we were together. She was a loving mother. Her life revolved around how she was going to be a mom. Her career as a photographer, which is what she wanted to do --

GRACE: Whoa. Whoa. Career as a photographer? For all I know she sat on the sofa for the last two years.

GRUND: I`m not saying she doesn`t sit on the sofa.

GRACE: Career as a sofa?

GRUND: I`m not saying she doesn`t sit on the sofa. When we were together she worked for Kodak as we all know and she wanted to further that as a career as a photographer. She did have a job until April 2006 which is confirmed.

GRACE: What did she do for Kodak?

GRUND: She was an assistant manager for one of their on-site stores that they had inside the theme park.

GRACE: Are you sure?

GRUND: Positive. That`s where I met her.

GRACE: Tell me something, Jesse. When you first learned that Caylee was missing, what did you believe?

GRUND: I didn`t believe in my heart that Casey could actually hurt her. I didn`t really think that it was anything more than Casey left her at Target or, you know, dropped her off. I didn`t know the extent of it.

GRACE: Why did you two break up?

GRUND: The first time it was because she -- she broke off the engagement because she thought I loved Caylee more than I loved her. Which is the furthest thing from the truth. I loved them both.

GRACE: That`s the first time I ever heard that. She thought you loved Caylee more than her?

GRUND: Absolutely. Yes, ma`am.

GRACE: You thought initially she was not involved. And I`m guessing that you still believe it was accidental?

GRUND: That`s tough for me to say. Again, I don`t know what this Casey is capable of. I know the evidence, of course, points in one direction. But I don`t know what she`s capable of anymore.

GRACE: Well, let me ask you this. Search your heart. What do you believe?

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I don`t mean to jump in, Nancy, but I think what Jesse`s trying to say is his heart is saying one thing, his head is saying something entirely different, and that makes a tremendous difficult decision for him to come out and say that.

GRUND: Trying to reconcile the two individuals together has been difficult for me because I remember the Casey that she was and I try and see her for the person that she is now. That`s not the same person that I wanted to spend the rest of my life with. And that makes it a little bit harder when I try and put those two things together.

GRACE: Well, Jesse, you just said something, actually, that`s pretty profound. I once had a trial judge that would tell the jury that they must believe beyond a reasonable doubt in their head and in their heart to a moral and reasonable certainty. So are you telling me that while you believe in your head that the evidence shows she`s guilty in your heart you still cannot believe it?

GRUND: It`s hard for me to accept that she would do anything to Caylee. It`s very difficult for me to accept that, Nancy. And I don`t mean that to be patronizing or condescending to anyone out there who believes otherwise. But when you knew Casey as she was and you knew what she was like around Caylee and how much the two of us loved Caylee and doted on her, it`s difficult for me to actually commit to something like that.

GRACE: Jesse, what is your most vivid recollection of little Caylee?

GRUND: I`ve got a couple. You just said that your kids went to -- your children went to see Santa for the first time. Caylee`s first Christmas they couldn`t make it to the mall for Santa pictures. So I went and bought a cheap Santa outfit and took pictures with her on my lap as Santa for her little holiday scrapbook. And, you know, I`m -- I`m sorry. It`s rough because every time I think about her I realize that she`s gone. And that I`m not going to get her back. And that`s hard. That`s hard.

GRACE: Jesse, why did the tot mom accuse you of loving little Caylee more than you loved her?

GRUND: It sounds like -- when I heard it, my response to her was -- because I got a paternity test done to prove that I was not Caylee`s biological father. And if I didn`t love Casey, wouldn`t that have been the perfect time for me to just go at that point? But she didn`t want to hear that. She didn`t care at that point, and she wanted me to go from being Caylee`s father to just another guy in Caylee`s life.

GRUND: Because it seems to me, Jesse, that the kind of man I would want is somebody that does love the twins more than me, because they are now the most important thing on earth to me. So why did that -- why did Caylee end up being a reason that you guys broke -- I just don`t understand why that would be a break-up.

GRUND: You know, I think that may have been a front for something else. I mean, her behavior completely changed at the end of the relationship. She went from being a home body who enjoyed watching movies and hanging out as a family and going out to dinner to somebody who blew off my brother`s graduation because she had a party the night before and she was too hung over to show up. So there were some definitive changes in her behavior. And I still have no explanation. I still can`t reconcile who she was and then who she became. It`s very difficult for me.

GRACE: Did you love little Caylee like she was your own child?

GRUND: A piece of paper couldn`t tell me not to love her like she was my daughter.

GRACE: Jesse, take a listen to this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Is it any reason that you have outside of intuition to believe that Jesse may or may not be involved in Caylee`s disappearance?

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I believe that Jesse -- again, this is just my feelings. I believe Jesse is very jealous of the relationships that Casey has had after their engagement --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: When you hear this, do you bear anger toward the Anthony`s, or is your heart softened to them after their loss?

GRACE: Look, I believe that the Anthony`s are grieving grandparents. So our differences aside, I want to give them time to grieve. You know. Things can be addressed at another time. But as of right now, they are grieving grandparents. Again, a lot of what they`ve said is not congruent with what I would consider the truth about my feelings and about who I am as an individual.

However, they are going through something right now that I would not wish on my worst enemy.

GRACE: Jesse, how has this affected your life?

GRUND: You know, I`m never going to be able to replace Caylee. I`m never going to be able to replace that portion of my heart that I had that I gave to her. But this case is -- all of us who were involved it has followed us around and it will continue like a cloud. There`s a -- those accusation that`s they have thrown against me have been proved to be incorrect and it`s always going to be there.

GRACE: Jesse, you`ve remained strong throughout. Thank you for being with us.

Next, undercover police video of tot mom`s brother, Lee Anthony.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRACE: Inside tot moms murder investigation. Casey Anthony`s former lover goes undercover, wearing a secret wire, and catching brother Lee talking about the stench of death in tot mom`s car, her history of lies, and pointing the finger at ex-lovers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LEE ANTHONY, CASEY`S BROTHER: Here`s the problem. Like because I haven`t been able to talk to her until this past Saturday -- it`s the first time I`ve been able to talk to her. That`s like, what, ten days almost?

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Yeah.

L. ANTHONY: Nine days. So that`s ridiculous, number one. Because she`s the one that -- she opened up to me the first time anyway talking about how - -

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I remember you giving me that call, telling me that she just admitted that she doesn`t -- that she hasn`t seen Caylee.

L. ANTHONY: Exactly. 31 days is what she says. Right. Exactly. And she`s - - everybody is -- she`s with the nanny. She`s wherever. You know? So it`s - - that aside, you know, just the fact that she opened up to me with that and then I haven`t been able to talk to her, frankly, the police never even interviewed me. They took a written statement, but it was -- I was still talking to my sister afterwards. It was before I went to your place. Like a lot of stuff still went down that night. You know what I mean? I picked up all her stuff. She had receipts in her bag. Like the check about Amy. I didn`t know about any of that [bleep] you know what I mean in and this would be nice to put in my statement.

No one actually interviewed me. So when I was trying to describe how my sister had opened up. You can`t put it on paper. You`ve got to be able to talk about it. So I`ve been trying to get that out to them to make them say, listen, if she`s going to open up to anybody it`s going to be -- I would think it would be me. One thing that I found out recently that I want to tell you about, it had to be when you were on -- when you were in New York.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): OK.

L. ANTHONY: And remember I mentioned this to you. I said did you give Casey a key? Remember when I was asking that? Did you give her a key? Would she have gotten one? I mentioned the whole thing about maybe she crawled into a window or something.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Mm-hmm.

L. ANTHONY: Check this out. When did you leave for --

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): No, sorry. I was in the wrong month.

L. ANTHONY: The 30th. That Monday morning. See --

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Well, then I don`t know. Jesse told me that -- well, actually, I have the notes in my car somewhere. But Jesse told me -- and you know, I think he might have said the first week in July now that I think about it. But Casey had called him one day. I think he did say it was the first week of July. And said that Casey locked herself out of your place because that`s where she said that she was staying, she locked herself out of your place and instead of crawling in your window, like this is exactly what she said to him, instead of crawling in your window she asked if she could go over to his house to take a shower.

Like to get cleaned up as if she was going to work or something. And he at first explained it to me like he hadn`t talked to her in a few days and he thought that that was out of the ordinary. But I just remember after he told me that and then after I got her phone records I looked on my -- dude, you`ve been talking to her every day. Maybe not on the phone. Maybe a text. So I don`t know about all that. But anyway, he made it sound like, OK; Casey was talking about how she did want to climb in your window, almost like why would you say that if you didn`t consider or maybe do that at some point? So I just thought that was -- I thought that was fishy.

L. ANTHONY: Remember when I had mentioned to you, you know, check your -- make sure to check your bank statements, don`t -- you know, checks and stuff.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): No, I`m not missing any checks.

L. ANTHONY: Because there`s a check. I know four that she wrote that were Amy`s. But there`s a fifth one. And I can`t figure out whose it`s for. It`s not Amy`s check.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): What bank account?

L. ANTHONY: I don`t know. See, that`s the thing.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Wachovia --

L. ANTHONY: I`m saying I don`t know. I`m going off of receipts. OK. And the receipt that I have, all it says is a form of payment and the amount. It doesn`t actually tell me routing numbers and -- you know, or any of that where I`d be able to trace it back. So the only reason I know the other ones are Amy`s is because I`ve talked to her. And she said, yeah, these checks, these dates, and it matches. So I`m like OK, check, check, check.

And then when I bring another one up to her thinking that`s another one, the 12th of July, was Winn-Dixie, $92.86 or something like that or $82.92. Something likes that. It was close to 100 bucks. And I don`t know whose check that was. So I`m wonder if she took it from somebody else. It definitely wasn`t mine because I checked -- as soon as it happened Amy told me and I was like I`m checking this. I was worried something -- right. I was worried something on the 12th it might take a few days to post, too.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Right.

L. ANTHONY: So if you haven`t checked it recently, I`d just double-check. If you`re out 92 bucks, I know where it is. I know what it was used for.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): You probably ate it because it was Winn-Dixie.

L. ANTHONY: Probably ate it.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): So sounds like you bought yourself groceries.

L. ANTHONY: Yeah. Right. But I don`t know. So there`s that --

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): Had you ever met -- I know I asked you that night if you`d ever heard of Jesse. Had you ever met Jesse prior to --

L. ANTHONY: Yeah. I met him at Arden Villas way back in the day for like two seconds. Is that where he lives?

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): I think so. I don`t know.

L. ANTHONY: She said she knew it was her ex-boyfriend that she`s really good friends with now and she brought him down and I met him -- really that was it. I was doing some DJ at the pool.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): What was your impression of him?

L. ANTHONY: Just he seemed all right. He was a quiet guy. He just said -- you know, hello, what`s up. He said he had to go out, he had to head back out.

Right. I`m just worried about him in a way. And it`s -- actually, I talk to him every day, some of the stuff that he tells me and some of the stuff that he doesn`t tell me or even the investigators just kind of rubs me the wrong way, you know. Like he was engaged to my sister for other a year. Like for a while there, my sister led us to believe that he was the father of Caylee. Like, so there`s a lot of history there. And, like, she`s always told my parents, yeah, Jesse`s still trying to get with me, but I`m not letting that happen. And Jesse always tells his parents, Casey is still trying to get with me and I`m not letting that happen. Where in reality, they`re still seeing each other on a semi regular basis at least a couple of times a month, like -- it`s not like it`s anything new, you know what I mean.

(UNIDENTIFIED MALE): So it`s a reoccurring thing that they do?

L. ANTHONY: Absolutely. Absolutely. They don`t ever really get serious but they -- what I`ve found, talking to her ex-boyfriend and all this stuff, it almost sounds like he is always the one either right at the start or right at the end of when a relationship would start or end, that he`s in the picture there. This long history that he has with my sister, you know, that`s -- there`s plenty of opportunity for motive in there.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Another ex-lover, Ricardo Morales opens up to cops on tape. Yet another lover, tot mom points the finger at in connection with Caylee`s disappearance.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLICE: Where do you think Caylee was?

RICARDO MORALES, TOT MOM`S EX-LOVER: She would just tell us she`s either with the nanny or with her mom. And being that I hadn`t seen her in like three weeks ever since I saw Caylee. I didn`t see her enough to think anything of it. Like I didn`t see her consistently without Caylee I saw her like two times after that and she didn`t have Caylee and I didn`t really think much of it because well one of the times I was just going to work and she was here talking to Amy and the other time she just didn`t have Caylee and I didn`t, I don`t know I just didn`t think anything of it.

POLICE: Have you ever seen the nanny?

MORALES: No, ever seen her never talked to her.

POLICE: Did you and um and Casey ever go out on a date with, ever like go out on a date period?

MORALES: Yeah, we`d go out I mean to pretty much food is the only date we`d do.

POLICE: Uh-huh. Did you ever go out on a date without Caylee?

MORALES: Yeah.

POLICE: Where was Caylee at if you guys went on a date?

MORALES: I don`t know specifics, I, I would assume was with the mother or with Zanny, who is the nanny of Caylee. Which is what Casey had told me the whole time I know her. If she`s not here, she`s with one of those two so.

As far as her relationship with Caylee in front of me at least, she seemed like a fine mother. I mean she took great care of her and all that stuff so. I mean outside of here, I don`t know I assumed she had a nanny. I assumed her mother was watching her. But um, yeah, lots denying of it.

POLICE: If you were me, you`re the police; you`ve been tasked with trying to figure out what`s going on. Where would you point me to look?

MORALES: If I was, from what I feel right now, I don`t, I know just about as much about Casey as you probably do. Everything I thought I knew about this girl was not the truth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GRACE: Let`s stop and remember army private first class Jonathan Roberge, 22, Massachusetts, killed Iraq.

Awarded the bronze star, Purple Heart, Iraq campaign medal, a former boy scout. Lived life to the fullest. A people magnet. He never met a stranger. Loved restoring cars, leaves behind grieving parents John and Pauline, sisters Sarah and Megan, brother Andrew. Jonathan Roberge, American hero.

Thanks for being with us and inviting us into your homes on this special Nancy Grace investigates. I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. And in the then, good night, friend.

END