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Nancy Grace
Before Murders, Coleman Promised Mistress He`d Divorce
Aired May 28, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight in the case of a beautiful young mother and her two little sons found dead in their white-finished two-story home, strangled each in their own bedroom. In a heartbreaking gesture, 31-year-old Sheri Coleman and her two little boys, Garett and Gavin, ages 9 and 11, laid to rest, the three of them, side by side. Manner of death, ligature strangulation. A glove discarded, flung along I- 255 five minutes from the Coleman home, that glove now set to crack the case wide open, allegedly spattered with red spray paint, a possible direct link to a chilling message scrawled across the wall of the murder scene.
Shocking details about the murder scene emerge. We confirm mother of two Sheri Coleman found left naked, lying face down in her own bed. In the home, police find airline boarding passes, a Home Depot receipt for red spray paint and latex glove. Also a handmade noose discovered linked to the family home. Time of death pinpointed between 3:00 and 5:00 AM. But wasn`t Daddy still home before allegedly leaving for an early-morning workout? We also learn husband-slash-daddy, former Marine and preacher`s son who worked for a worldwide televangelist, Joyce Meyer Ministries, keeps a secret P.O. box apparently unknown to wife and family.
Bombshell tonight. Is motive served up on a silver platter? As the specter of a mistress rears its ugly head, sources reveal daddy Chris Coleman convinced his Florida girlfriend he filed for divorce. Not true. And we confirm the so-called threatening letters to Coleman and his family typewritten, allegedly hand delivered to the family mailbox with no postmark. We confirm Daddy turns up with bruises and scratches on the right forearm. Did Mommy fight back to save her two little boys?
Prosecutors now must prove who crept into the family home in the early morning hours to smother the life out of a stunning young mother and two little boys, leaving all three dead in their beds. Prosecutors say it was Daddy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Breaking news in the murders of 31-year-old mother of two Sheri Coleman and her two little boys, ages 9 and 11, all found strangled to death.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just unsealed, court records reveal what investigators found in the Coleman murder case. According to this search warrant, it says investigators found orange baling twine on the side of westbound I-255.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s a similar location to where they found the glove with red spray paint. They found a piece of orange baling twine, the end made into a loop fashioning a type of noose. At the Coleman home, they also found some hay bales stacked against the back of the house with the same type of twine.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will the police surveillance video crack the Coleman case? Reports are surfacing that a police camera not far from the Coleman home could play a key role in the case.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police are reviewing this surveillance, and we`re going to find out pretty soon what time his vehicle left the subdivision for him to go to the gym.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: During their visit, the family saw obscene graffiti spray-painted on the walls of the home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The walls on the first floor of the home covered in red spray paint. In the downstairs living room, the words "F" you bitch. Below it, the word "punished."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, breaking news in the desperate search for a 2- year-old Florida girl, Caylee. Six months of searching culminate when skeletal remains found in a heavily wooded area just 15 houses from the Anthony home confirmed to be Caylee, manner of death homicide. A utility meter reader stumbles on a tiny human skeleton, including a skull covered in light-colored hair, the killer duct taping and placing a heart-shaped sticker directly over the mouth, then triple bagging little Caylee like she`s trash.
In the last hours, tot mom goes from the jailhouse to the courthouse, tot mom in full shackle, dressed in gray business slacks and business shirt, a far cry from the photos of her in mini-dress and boots on a wild party spree after Caylee goes missing. In court, tot mom smiles constantly, adjusting her hair, playing directly to the camera. The defense fighting to keep secret tot mom`s reaction to live TV coverage the day Caylee`s remains discovered, tot mom allegedly hyperventilating, asking for medication for herself. It`s all on video. And tonight reports that behind bars, tot mom plans to outsmart Lady Justice, allegedly vowing that before the state can administer the death penalty, she will kill herself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She walked into the medical clinic and immediately looked at the TV, which was on channel 9, broadcasting the breaking news. And she collapsed into the chair and started to what appeared to be hyperventilating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Casey Anthony is in court today. Her defense team has filed a motion to suppress the jailhouse video that shows Casey`s reaction to the news that her daughter Caylee`s remains had been found.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She (INAUDIBLE) hyperventilation with heavy, deep breathing that was taking place. She then bent over and made complaints that she was feeling sick to her stomach and was going to throw up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She was taken there under the belief and told that she would receive medical treatment in the medical office. There was an orchestration to place Ms. Anthony in front of the TV for 30 to 45 minutes while Channel 6 news was unfolding the story that the body of a child had been found. This is cruel. This is inhumane. This is illegal. This is unconstitutional.
CASEY ANTHONY, CAYLEE`S MOTHER: My entire life has been taken from me! Everything has been taken from me!
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. A beautiful young mother and her two little sons found dead in their white-finished two-story home, strangled each in their own bedroom. Tonight, stunning new details from inside secret police files. Is motive served up on a silver platter?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The police revealed what they found when they got there at the crime scene.
GRACE: ... a mom left to be found naked, face down in her own bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they also revealed what was taken from the home, the vehicle, even from the body of Christopher Coleman.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Christopher Coleman had two scratches and some other injury on his right forearm. Illinois State Police swabbed them in an effort to recover DNA.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) victim`s going to have fingernail scrapings. They`re going to look for the DNA of the assailant in case the victim scratched the assailant.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police, who`ve said Sheri, Gavin and Garett Coleman were strangled with an object, not with someone`s hand, discovered a piece of twine fashioned into a noose during a search of Interstate 255 near the JB bridge. The twine was orange. Behind the Coleman home, they found four bales of straw wrapped in orange twine. And then there were the letters. One in January read, "Deny your God publicly or else." A second in late April read, "It is the last warning. I will be watching. Your worst nightmare is about to happen."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That was all a cover story that he was manufacturing meticulously. He had planned this quite a bit. He prepared for it. He had evidence in place to make it look like a stranger was going to do it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If this evidence proves true, this was a remarkably cold, remarkably calculated killing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to our chief editorial producer, Ellie Jostad. Ellie, I`m braced. Is it true that sources are stating husband-slash-daddy Chris Coleman told his Florida girlfriend he`d already filed for divorce?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. Our sources are telling us that this alleged girlfriend in Florida met with police and she told them exactly what you just said, that he had already filed for divorce.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers, Robin Sax (ph), prosecutor and author, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle, Randy Zelin out of New York, defense attorney.
Robin Sax, I guess she is cooperating. She doesn`t want a little aiding and abetting charge to catch her in court.
ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR: That seems to be the case. It seems that she is more than willing to talk to law enforcement here to help, hopefully, pinpoint the motive for the killing of the two kids and Sheri Coleman.
GRACE: To Anne Bremner out of Seattle. Anne, the state doesn`t need motive. And of course, I commend -- and I would like to clarify yet again the Florida girlfriend is not a stripper, as we were first told. She was a hostess at a strip club. Got to commend her for cooperating, OK? That`s good, but she could have come under suspicion for helping the whole thing along.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, that`s the thing, Nancy. They don`t have to prove motive, of course, but the question is, Were you involved before the fact or after the fact, because it makes a huge difference as you know. If it`s before, you can be found complicit and guilty as a principal.
GRACE: To Randy Zelin. Weigh in on motive.
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, certainly -- you`re right, you don`t have to prove motive as a prosecutor. But boy, does it help when you can explain to a jury from a common sense perspective why the defendant committed this crime. It goes a long, long way towards getting you a conviction.
GRACE: Back to Ellie Jostad. Ellie, what more do we know?
JOSTAD: Well, we also know a little bit more about what was in those search warrants from yesterday. We heard about that post office box, a letter coming there from St. Pete, Florida, area. We also now know that there was...
GRACE: Wait a minute. Hold on, dear. Wasn`t it a greeting card? A greeting card?
JOSTAD: Right. Described as a greeting card.
GRACE: So while Mommy`s on her hands and knees scrubbing the bathroom floor, the girlfriend sends a -- Hi! -- greeting card? That`s nice.
JOSTAD: Yes. Well, another item that was also, according to these search warrants, sent to that post office box -- a credit card in Sheri Coleman`s name also delivered to that post office box.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The minute we found out about the murders, he called for two straight days to get a response from Chris, and it took two days to get a call back. We felt very disrespected. And the whole episode of having to hire lawyers, including myself, to go down to St. Louis and bring the bodies back to Chicago -- shouldn`t have to be like that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Police revealed what they found when they got there at the crime scene.
GRACE: The killer left 31-year-old mother of two Sheri Coleman to be found face down, rigor mortis already setting in to her body, naked.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We`d heard that Christopher Coleman had made reports in the past.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s very detailed what was in the letters. They`re shocking letters. Received one of them on January 2nd that said, "F you, deny your God publicly or else."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This isn`t somebody who thought it out very carefully or it makes a lot of sense. This is somebody who leaves a glove or leaves a ligature on the side of the road. And "Deny your God"? It`s as though he`s adopting a pseudo-personality to make this work for him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did surveillance video capture the killer of the Coleman family? Reports emerge that a police surveillance camera mounted near a water tower in the community is capable of shooting a 360-degree view. Within the camera`s eye, the only road going into and out of the subdivision and the surrounding highways.
GRACE: The real killer should turn up on that video unless he crept up the side of the mountain to get to the home.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dr. Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst and author of "Dealbreakers." Bethany, we need a shrink in a big way, right? If this guy is guilty, he`s sending letters to himself saying, You must denounce your God. In other words, he`s planning to kill his wife and two little boys, ligature strangulation allegedly with a garrote, and then make himself out to be a Christian martyr like Stephen?
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST: Well, I think he`s trying to imply that there`s some stalker going after her, and because he`s a part of the ministry, if they don`t give up their God, this stalker is going to come in and kill her.
GRACE: But...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I mean, who says anything like that? Decry, denounce your God? I mean, where does that come from?
MARSHALL: Well, it`s so shallow, and it`s trite and it`s stereotyped and it`s...
GRACE: Why does God have to be dragged into everything? Why is it always God`s fault?
MARSHALL: He`s just trying to frame it and make it look as if someone is after them because they`re a part of the church. I think that`s how God got into it. And I don`t think the mistress perhaps has much to do with this at all because sociopaths are quite promiscuous. He may have had a string of girlfriends and a big on-line porn habit. That might come out in a trial. I think what`s really probably likely is that he...
GRACE: Bethany, how do you manage to wiggle porn into everything? Nobody`s said the word porn until now.
MARSHALL: Well, you know, with these sociopaths, it`s not even just pornography, it`s pornography with a twist of sadism involved because they love the power position. He probably just hated her and wanted to get rid of her.
GRACE: To Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI. Let`s talk about the letters, sources stating that they were typewritten, not surprising.
MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: No.
GRACE: And hand delivered, hand delivered and put in the family mailbox. So either it`s got to be a neighbor or this mysterious killer drove a couple hundred miles instead of just dropping it in the post.
BROOKS: Well, I`ll tell you, they`re going to lead -- there`s a lot of evidence in these letters, Nancy. Again, one was on January 2009, and one in April of 2009. Now, in these letters, you can get fingerprint evidence, hairs, fibers that are inside the envelope. And if the person who sealed it happened to lick the adhesive and seal it closed, you can get DNA. Also, Nancy, remember the camera that we talked about last night that`s outside and looks in the community on the only road in and out of it?
GRACE: Oh, let`s see a shot of that, Liz. Go ahead, Brooks.
BROOKS: Yes. That camera could also come into play, depending on how long the community keeps the records of this camera. You know, did -- was there a strange car coming in and out? Are these cameras able to capture the tags? The other thing with these letters, Nancy, they also seized printers...
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, Brooks!
BROOKS: Yes, ma`am?
GRACE: What tags? According to police, it`s going to be his car and tags.
BROOKS: Well, I`m just saying, you know, was there any strange tags coming in and out? We doubt that. But one other thing, too. They seized -- in the search warrant, we noticed they seized printers from the house. They`re also going to compare the paper that -- from the letters with the paper that was found in the house and also the ink from the printer compared to the ink that was on these letters.
GRACE: Clark Goldband, our staffer on the story, what can you tell me about the latex glove? We believe they were used in the three murders of the mom and the little boys, but weren`t they also found in the home?
CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Yes, Nancy. First, we heard they were on the side of the road of I-255, the route that Chris Coleman drove over to the gym. Now we`re learning from these newly released search warrants that, in fact, there were two pairs of gloves inside the Coleman home.
GRACE: So if they match up, Mike Brooks, the one by the freeway to the one in the home, what do we have?
BROOKS: I think you have a pretty good -- a pretty case. No, not -- I mean, you`ve got a great case, Nancy. And there was also a box in the house of latex gloves. So is it a match? Most likely.
GRACE: Quick break, everyone. But to tonight`s "Case Alert." Human bones wash ashore in dense brush 20 minutes from Stacy Peterson`s home, the bones not the young mother of four. The remains are male, leaving Stacy`s disappearance still a mystery. Husband-slash-cop Drew Peterson, the prime suspect in wife four`s disappearance, finally charged in the 2004 drowning death of wife three, Kathleen Savio, Savio found covered in bruises, drowned to death in a bone-dry bathtub. Even from behind bars, Peterson`s still yakking, calling a local radio station collect.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
DREW PETERSON, CHARGED WITH THIRD WIFE`S MURDER: Hey, Mancow.
MANCOW, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Yes.
PETERSON: I know we can`t do the "Date With Drew" anymore.
MANCOW: Yes?
PETERSON: But I`m thinking what we should do is, like, win a conjugal visit with Drew. Let`s do that.
(LAUGHTER)
MANCOW: Oh, my. How`s the food, Drew?
PETERSON: Well, the food`s different. I didn`t understand why they had seatbelts on the toilet until after I had a couple of meals here, so...
(LAUGHTER)
(END AUDIO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murderer! Murderer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murderer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The emotion not inside the courthouse, but outside. He was greeted by crowds who showed up to heckle him.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murderer!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby killer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Murderer!
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Baby killer! Baby killer!
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: People obviously upset in this county. They tell me they haven`t had a murder trial here in five years, very unusual, and of course, Christopher Coleman charged with murdering his wife and his two children, his two sons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to renowned medical examiner Dr. Joshua Perper, joining us out of Miami, also author of "When to Call the Doctor." Dr. Perper, two little boys, ages 9 and 11, found dead, one mom, age 31, found naked, lying face down in her own bed -- Doctor, is there any way to determine who was killed first?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER: I don`t believe so because in this case it looks most likely that the death of three occurred in very rapid succession. And it`s not a death which is associated with bleeding because bleeding might sometimes indicate by its amount a longer survival. So I would say it`s very unlikely.
And don`t forget that this is a police officer which is aware of the importance of the determination of the time of death. So most likely, he would have an interest, if he planned the murder, indeed, that he would kill the people as soon as -- before he leaves the house, or even pretend that he left the house much later than, in fact, he did in order that the post-mortem changes would be as fresh as possible and would not inculpate him.
GRACE: To Marlaina Schiavo, also on the case. Marlaina, what can you tell me about wounds found on Chris Coleman?
MARLAINA SCHIAVO, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right. There are wounds on his right forearm, which they swabbed. They`re trying to get a DNA match on him. There are two scratches, as well. So they`re trying to analyze where those came from, as well, Nancy.
GRACE: To Bethany Marshall, psychoanalyst out of LA. A possible struggle obviously by the mother. Now, for him to continue in the attack, if, in fact, he is found guilty, even when she`s fighting back, what does that say to you?
MARSHALL: Well, what was spray painted on the walls was "whore" and "you paid," and it suggests a relationship with this woman of deep and utter hatred, paranoia, the feeling that she`s threatening him in some way, even though the opposite is true, and a need to just denigrate and triumph over her. And it`s just wanting to render her into a helpless state.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sir, do you think the death penalty is appropriate?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that`s going to be up for the prosecutor to decide where there`s some information that`s going to be considered. And you know, for me to stand up here and say what`s right or wrong, that would be inappropriate.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Illinois husband and father has pleaded not guilty to charges he strangled his wife and two young boys to death. The judge ordered Chris Coleman held without bond after a short court appearance today. There are allegations he`s been having an affair.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police sources have said that there was a girlfriend in Florida.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Detectives have traveled to Florida to ask about this female friend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Nobody has said anything that they knew of anything to point to trouble within the marriage.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Coleman who works as a security guard, chief of security for a major evangelist in town resigned and the evangelist said it was a -- that he broke, he violated policy.
We were told from an employee of that church that he admitted to two co-workers that he had an inappropriate relationship.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My aunt and my cousin, they know this young lady. She went to high school with Sheri, so it`s not some random girl he met off the Internet. This was a friend of the family.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Back to Ellie Jostad, our chief editorial producer following the case. Ellie, along with a greeting card allegedly from the Florida girlfriend in the secret PO box, I understand credit cards were there as well?
ELLIE JOSTAD, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Right. Well, they found a credit card in the house and apparently it sounds like it was still in the envelope. It was from HSBC. It was in Sheri Coleman`s name and yet it wasn`t sent to the home address. It was sent to that post office box.
GRACE: Ellie, what can you tell me about equity lines on the home?
JOSTAD: Right. Well, Sheri Coleman`s family says that on that day that she signed the papers taking her name off the deed, she also signed some refinance papers. Now they claim that in that refi about $28,000 to $30,000 of credit were then freed up and they don`t know what happened to that money.
That`s -- some of the documents that police seized as well were those refinance documents as well as insurance papers and other financial records.
GRACE: To Clark Goldband, also on the story, what else was taken from Coleman? I understand that his body was searched pursuant to warrant?
CLARK GOLDBAND: Yes, Nancy. Exactly right. There were all kinds of things taken from Chris Coleman, not only at the house, but also from Chris Coleman including swabs of saliva, fingerprints and two types of handwriting samples. One print, one cursive.
Now, in the bedroom, there were also all kinds of cords apparently all over and inside drawers. Some of those were shoelaces which were left on top of the dresser.
GRACE: Let`s talk about handwriting samples. Along with Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, Robin Sax joining us prosecutor and author, Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle and Randy Zelin, defense attorney out of New York.
Anne Bremner. Let`s see Bremner`s face. I want hear her explain this one as she does so well in court. Anne Bremner.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes, Nancy.
GRACE: He`s giving writing samples out the ying-yang, OK, if, of course, he is in fact the killer. He`s got all over the home, more than we first realized, spray painted messages, "F you bitch," about his wife, "I`m watching you." Not only that, his mode of speech in all these typewritten letters.
What about it, Anne Bremner?
BREMNER: Well, you know, I did think in this case, I mean, all you needed to do is just spray paint an arrow to his face saying I did it in red. I mean, but the fact is that.
GRACE: Now, wait a minute. That`s not the Anne Bremner we all know and love.
BREMNER: But I wasn`t done, Nancy.
GRACE: Give me your best defense, Bremner.
BREMNER: My best defense is handwriting is not a DNA match. It`s not fingerprints. You know this is a very strange case and there`s a lot more going on here than we know. The evidence is.
GRACE: Now wait a minute. You always say that. You always says very strange.
BREMNER: I do.
GRACE: There`s more than we know.
BREMNER: It is strange. You know, something`s happening here where it isn`t exactly clear in Buffalo -- or Springfield, excuse me, but the big thing in this case, Nancy, I`m thinking it is some kind of mental defense. I can`t imagine staging a scene like that that points only to him. And that`s my point.
GRACE: Put Bremner back on the camera. Anne Bremner, if you stage a mental defense, translation, I did it, but I was crazy when I did it. You`ve got to admit you did it to stage your mental defense.
BREMNER: That`s true. But you know what, the way it`s looking right now, from what we`re hearing, if it`s true, there`s a lot of linkage here and if that linkage is true and connected then that`s where the case is going to go.
GRACE: You know what?
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: One of the things I love about you, Anne Bremner. One of the reasons I`d hire you if I committed a triple homicide.
BREMNER: Thanks, Nancy.
GRACE: You refer to the chilling evidence as a linkage. It`s so sterile and almost makes you forget for one moment a 31-year-old mother of two is left dead naked for cops to find in her own bed, the little boys` face is purple when the cops got there.
Back to Dr. Joshua Perper. One of the little boys` face was purple when police got there. Why?
DR. JOSHUA PERPER, MEDICAL EXAMINER, AUTHOR OF "WHEN TO CALL THE DOCTOR": Because the ligature on the neck, it compresses the vein. It may compress only the vein and then blood still is coming out into the head, why it cannot bleed and then purple discoloration and strangulation and ligature is fairly commonly seen.
GRACE: Randy Zelin, how are you going to strike the jury and to get 12 people who have never loved a child before? Because, you know, husbands and wives they have marital disputes all the time. We hear about domestic homicide. We`re almost numb to it, but when you try to explain not guilty to murdering a 9 and 11-year-old little boy?
RANDY ZELIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Look, I`ve got an 8-year-old daughter. I`ve got an 11-year-old daughter and a 14-year-old son so this is one of those moments where we have to separate ourselves lawyer from human being.
From a lawyering standpoint, this case, in my opinion, is going to rise and fall on two things. One, whether or not his statements is going to come into evidence to establish a timeline and whether or not that surveillance camera is going to show anyone coming in or out at the time of death. If it doesn`t, this guy better start talking plea and get the death penalty off the table.
GRACE: Zelin, you`re right. Robin Sax, weigh in.
ROBIN SAX, PROSECUTOR, AUTHOR OF "PREDATORS & CHILD MOLESTERS": That`s the best hope here is for a plea bargain in this case. The way I see it now with all the state of the evidence, besides the hand writing and of course, you mentioned the personality that you`re going to undoubtedly hear be brought to the forefront by the prosecutor, the only hope here is for the defense, I believe, to get the death penalty off the table and to find the sentence that would be less than a death.
GRACE: You know, Robin Sax, you`re right. Right now there`s a moratorium on implementing the death penalty in that jurisdiction, and I predict that the next candidate to run for governor will run on the soapbox of reinstating implementation of the death penalty because of people like the killer in this case.
Very quickly, everyone, more breaking news in the case of tot mom Casey Anthony out of the jailhouse, in the courthouse just hours ago. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is Orange County utility emergency dispatch. We found a human skull.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Oh, my gosh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The skeletal remains found on December 11th are those of the missing toddler Caylee Anthony.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she collapsed into the chair and started to what appeared to be hyperventilating.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We all heard reports that she hyperventilated, she doubled over, she asked for medication.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I saw her a couple of times take some deep breaths. She was -- had real shallow breathing. Her hands started to sweat. She started rubbing them profusely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Attorney Jose Baez doesn`t want that tape released to the media. It allegedly shows Casey doubling over and hyperventilating after seeing the news on TV. The defense claims that event was staged to get Casey`s reaction on camera.
JOSE BAEZ, ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: This should not be released. As simply stated as I can put it. The media frenzy in this case has painted her in a false light. The release of this videotape will undoubtedly have a media spin to it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: To Drew Petrimoulx there on the scene outside the courthouse. He`s with WDBO. How can the video be prejudicial? It`s black and white. It can`t lie. It shows her reaction when she saw live coverage of the discovery of little Caylee`s remains.
DREW PETRIMOULX, REPORTER, WDBO RADIO: Well, I think the point they`re trying to make is her rights were violated. They said this was a cruel, illegal and unconstitutional. Basically what they`re saying is that there was orchestration between the sheriff`s office and jail staff to make sure that she saw this TV news coverage before her attorney Jose Baez was able to make it to the jail and tell her for himself.
GRACE: So? We will go back to tot mom right when we get back, but as we go to break, happy birthday to Lynden, New Jersey friend of the show, Gail.
Happy birthday, Gail.
And happy first birthday to a crime fighter, Tennessee, friend of the show, Emma. Her father, a firefighter, her grandfather, a veteran police officer, and her grandmother, Martha Duggar, never misses a show.
Baby Emma, happy birthday.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She kept screaming out, "I`m pissed. I`m pissed."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have you ever seen her react that way before?
LT. TAMMY UNSER, ORANGE COUNTY CORRECTIONS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So that`s the first time she`s ever reacted so strongly?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. She had kneeled on to the seats to allow the correctional officers to release her leg cuffs, then they removed her waist cuffs.
UNSER: Prior to today, most of my conversation with her was very -- she was weird to talk to. She was very -- not cold -- I don`t exactly know how to explain it. A non-emotional would probably be the best way to say it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they strapped her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So today was definitely different?
UNSER: Definitely different today. First time I had ever seen emotion on her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She was laid down on this leather -- it was a leather bed per se. But the bed was concave so it wasn`t a bed as if you were going to sleep on it.
UNSER: She lost her breath. We told her a couple of times to take some deep breaths.
CASEY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CAYLEE ANTHONY: Mom -- I`m sorry. I love you guys, I miss you.
CINDY ANTHONY, MOTHER OF CASEY ANTHONY: Here`s dad.
CASEY ANTHONY: No, I`m going to hang up and walk away right now.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were tying her or.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They were trying her down.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They were tying these little straps she was struggling?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Absolutely, crying and agitated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Natisha Lance also at the courthouse in court today. What was tot mom`s demeanor in court and why were you in court today?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, her demeanor in court today -- well, first of all, she was business attire once again, blue button-down shirt, gray slack pants. She was very -- she seemed very free about the whole situation.
She smiled a couple of times. She communicated with her attorneys on several different occasions. She`s played with her hair a little bit, but she paid very close attention to what was going on in the courtroom.
Now these motions that Drew talked about earlier with the video being released, the defense is saying that this is unconstitutional and it`s a violation of her rights. Now you heard Tammy Unser in that audio, but the defense also took depositions of Tammy Unser and they`re saying that in their depositions they were able to find out that this was something that was orchestrated by the Orange County Sheriff`s Office and the jail in order to get a reaction out of Casey Anthony.
GRACE: Out to a veteran trial lawyer, Bill Sheaffer, also joining us from Orlando. He`s a criminal defense attorney there and knows his way around the courtroom. He`s a legal analyst with WFTV in court today.
Mr. Sheaffer, thank you for joining us. Mr. Sheaffer, wasn`t she videoed in a common area a kind of a waiting room area before she went in to sick bay? I`m not sure of where she was, when she was videoed.
BILL SHEAFFER, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTY. WFTV LEGAL ANALYST, IN COURT TODAY: It was a common area and that in and of itself, in my mind, defeats this claim that there was some violation of her right to privacy. I mean, where was she? She`s in the Orange County jail, for heaven`s sakes.
GRACE: And let me point out not too delicately, Mr. Sheaffer, that she`s in jail. They can watch her take a poop if they want to much less sit in a common area with other people.
And also, Mr. Sheaffer, I know you and I have traditionally been on different sides of the fence, but let me remind you of the U.S. Supreme Court case and the Christian Burial case which we all learned in law school. The cops can even trick somebody, for instance, into a confession as long as their constitutional rights are not violated.
So in this case, so what if cops said, hey, she`s going to see live coverage of the discovery of Caylee`s remains. Let`s let her see it and see what she does. Is that unconstitutional, Mr. Sheaffer?
SHEAFFER: You`re going to be surprised, I`m going to agree with you. I do not believe that it`s unconstitutional. The law enforcement has a right, in my opinion, to compare the lack of reaction when ostensibly the child`s remains were found the first time with the reaction of Casey the second time when the remains were found and her reaction, the prosecutors are going to argue, and I believe rightly so, that it shows guilty knowledge because she knew that`s where the child`s body was. She knew because she`s the killer.
GRACE: Sheaffer, you`ve been in court a million times in that courthouse. What`s your prediction on how the judge is going to rule on this?
SHEAFFER: If the judge finds that it`s staged, I don`t know that that`s going to cause him a lot of problem. I think the problem may come because it was eluded to that Baez was trying to get to her during the time that this was allegedly staged.
If the judge finds that he may find that she had a due process violation and a right to counsel and it could be suppressed or not released to the public, but you know what? They say that a picture is worth a thousand words. There have been 10,000 words describing her reaction.
Who cares at this point whether the videotape is released because we all know what her reaction was and her reaction is what is the damning part of this evidence.
GRACE: Well, Sheaffer, I understand where you`re coming from, but the fact that Baez may have been somewhere in the jailhouse waiting to get in to see her. I don`t see how constitutionally legally that`s going to make a difference. It may irritate the judge, but as far as a legal ruling goes, irritation doesn`t matter.
He`s got to go down the black and white of the constitution, but I see how it could sway his opinion as you are saying.
Very quickly to Leonard Padilla, bounty hunter who will be under oath in this case. Leonard, reports are surfacing that tot mom says that she will outsmart lady justice. If she gets the death penalty, she will kill herself behind bars. Is that the tot mom Casey Anthony that you have come to know?
LEONARD PADILLA, BOUNTY HUNTER, WILL BE DEPOSED IN TOT MOM CIVIL SUIT: No. No, that`s not going to happen. If you were to ask anybody that was around her whether it was Rob, Dick or Tracy, they would tell her the same thing. There is no way she`s going to commit suicide and even if she was on the gurney and the needle is put in her arm she`d be fluffing her hair. She`s not going to get off that easy.
GRACE: Why the fluffing hair comment, Padilla? Why do you say that?
PADILLA: Because she`s just that vain. She`s just going to lay there if she gets the death penalty, if she`s just going to go out the way is. She`s Casey.
GRACE: I want to go to Terence Lenamon, a special guest joining us. He is the former defense attorney, death penalty qualified for tot mom Casey Anthony. He argued to get the death penalty in a written memo to the state.
There is a new death penalty lawyer on the case, Terence Lenamon. Mr. Lenamon, you have not divulged anything secret about the case, but I`m gathering you and Baez butted heads about what you think would be the appropriate and best defense for her.
What do you make of the new death penalty lawyer?
(ON THE PHONE)
TERENCE LENAMON, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR CASEY ANTHONY: Nancy, I think it`s an excellent choice he made with Miss Lyons. Miss Lyons is an experienced trial lawyer, who`s handled a lot of death penalty cases, brings a lot to the table. And if he butts heads with her I suspect she`s going to prevail because she`s the one with the experience and knows how to handle a case like this.
GRACE: Terence Lenamon, what do you think of the defense argument that catching her on video at the time that she was watching live coverage when Caylee`s body was discovered is inhuman?
LENAMON: You know, Nancy, I don`t -- I don`t disagree with what Mr. Sheaffer was saying, his legal observations on the right to privacy while you`re in jail. I think that what the defense is trying to say here is that this -- the press coverage of this has to stop somewhere and we need to move forward and actually try this case with 12 jurors instead of.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Terence. Terence, please don`t get me wrong, I respect you greatly. But this isn`t just about press coverage, this is about whether this video will end up in court.
LENAMON: I think his analysis was correct. If the judge has concerns that she had a right to counsel at that time and her right to counsel was effectively taken away by the Department of Corrections because of a delay, I think that he may have some concerns about that. I don`t know all the details and facts.
GRACE: Right.
LENAMON: . of that specific situation.
GRACE: With me, Terence Lenamon, former attorney for tot mom.
As we go to break, a very get-well wish to our show`s number one fan, Matt Grace. A big thank you to Dr. Griffin and a wonderful staff who attended to my father during surgery today at the Medical Center of Georgia.
Daddy, get well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BAEZ: I`m not out on a fishing expedition. These are state witnesses in a death penalty case where law enforcement has sought on their own to investigate. I think we should have the same -- the ability to do the same.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Tot mom out of the jailhouse in the courthouse just hours ago.
To Ellie Jostad. Ellie, Annie Downing, a former best friend forever of tot mom, went under oath. Is it my understanding that she actually nearly got a confession out of tot mom and other relevant information that may come in at trial?
JOSTAD: Well, what Annie Downing said was that she talked to Casey Anthony one of these times that she was out on bail. And she felt that Casey Anthony may start to confide in her, but Annie said she didn`t want to know what happened. She didn`t want to be the person with all the information. So whenever Casey Anthony would go down that path, she would change the subject.
GRACE: Ellie, didn`t she allegedly -- tot mom allegedly say that someone was telling her what to say to come up with all these cockamamie stories?
JOSTAD: Right. Right. Exactly. That`s what she told Annie Downing. Annie says that Casey Anthony told her all this stuff you`ve heard me say, she said, she told me to say.
GRACE: To Bethany Marshall. Weigh in, Bethany.
BETHANY MARSHALL, PSYCHOANALYST, AUTHOR OF "DEALBREAKERS": Well, I think with Casey Anthony, it`s really hard to tell fact from fiction. So we`re going to have to hear everything she said to Miss Downing and try to find out what`s the secret confession, what is just blabbing, and what in fact might be a secret satisfaction she is taking in her alleged crimes.
GRACE: A very special thank you to Terence Lenamon, death penalty lawyer out of Florida, and Bill Sheaffer, in court today.
Let`s stop and remember Navy Petty Officer 2nd Class Tyler Trahan, 22, East (INAUDIBLE) Town, Massachusetts, killed, Iraq. A third generation military man. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Combat Campaign Medal, lost his life two days before his 23rd birthday.
A member of the National Honor Society, proud of his Irish-French heritage. Loved the Red Sox and Patriots. Leaves behind grieving parents John Pierre, Anne Marie, sister, Molly.
Tyler Trahan, American hero.
Thanks to our guest but thank you to you for being with us, and happy birthday to one of our stars, Clack Goldband.
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern. And until then, good night, friend.
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