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Campbell Brown
Interview With Former President Jimmy Carter; Dick Cheney Saving Republican Party?
Aired June 01, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. Should Bush administration officials be prosecuted for war crimes? I ask former President Jimmy Carter in an exclusive interview.
Is Dick Cheney saving the Republican Party?
RICHARD B. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: They wouldn't call me Darth Vader for nothing.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: By leading the charge against the Obama administration, is the former vice president the great hope of the GOP?
And Susan Boyle's hospitalization, this little girl's heartbreaking meltdown, the family turmoil on "Jon & Kate Plus 8." Do real people pay a heavy price for our guilty pleasures?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now.
Here's Campbell brown.
BROWN: Hey, everybody. It is good to be back. And we are tackling the big questions tonight.
In a moment, Supreme Court nominee Sonia Sotomayor is under fire for speaking her mind. One question we will explore tonight, does your race determine your politics?
But we're going to start tonight with a brief look at the big stories of the day and some of the moments that have stayed with us, our own "Mash-Up" tonight.
Something that would have seemed almost unthinkable just a year ago tonight all too real, and no surprise it led the network new casts. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS: Welcome to "World News." Tonight, fallen titan. General Motors, once the world's largest automaker, files for bankruptcy.
KATIE COURIC, CBS NEWS: Those of us who grew up when General Motors ruled the road, never imagined we would see this day.
BRIAN WILLIAMS, NBC NEWS: For the men and women who built that company and all those cars and trucks, this news takes some getting used to.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Our goal is to get GM back on its feet, take a hands-off approach, and get out quickly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The federal government will soon own 60 percent of General Motors and GM will get another $30 billion in bailout money. In Washington, it was hailed as progress, but in Detroit, it felt like a lot of pain to a lot of people. Check out our local affiliate, WXYZ, their reporting. This was just after the news broke.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow. I mean, the loss...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The loss of jobs and the loss of workers' lives, retirees' lives, it's just unbelievable.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Every one of those numbers refers to a person and their life.
TIM MORROW, JOB IN JEOPARDY: Well, find another job. Oh, wait. You can't do that. Michigan is down on its luck. Last one out, shut the lights off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: GM is closing or idling 14 plants.
At this hour, the mystery we have been following all day long is still just that, a mystery. Right now, it's the number-one story on CNN.com, the search for Air France Flight 47 still under way at this hour.
Early this morning, the plane left Rio, bound for Paris. And then it vanished somewhere over the Atlantic Ocean. One theory, the jet was struck by lightning. Tonight, families of the passengers have gathered at Charles de Gaulle Airport in Paris anxiously awaiting word of their loved ones. There were 228 people aboard the flight.
And now to the interview of the day. This is TV's Lisa Ling. Her sister, Laura Ling, this is an American journalist, she's being held kept captive in a North Korean prison tonight. In March, she and fellow reporter Euna Lee were arrested. They were accused of illegally crossing into the country from China. Today, Lisa Ling and her family went on NBC's "Today Show" and begged for the women's freedom. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISA LING, REPORTER: When they left the United States, there was no intention of crossing the border into North Korea. And if any point they may have, we, the families, apologize profusely on their behalf.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Laura Ling, Euna Lee go on trial on Thursday. Larry King has much more with Lisa Ling. That is on CNN tonight 9:00 Eastern time.
And our final "Mash-Up" moment tonight: Susan Boyle, the Scottish singing sensation, has checked herself into a private clinic suffering from exhaustion. Reports are she had a bit of a meltdown after Saturday's big loss. Well, today, Boyle's British judges were everywhere milking her misery. You couldn't escape them. That was Amanda Holden on "The CBS Early Show," Piers Morgan on ABC's "Good Morning America."
Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She needs little bit of time out of the spotlight and then she can actually maybe sit back and relax and enjoy what's happening to her. Because surely she is the biggest and best loser of a talent show in the world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And all the reports of her running around half-naked and screaming at people and throwing things at people, a lot of that has been massively exaggerated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And the judge's publicity tour probably not helping so much either. That is tonight's "Mash-Up."
And now to tonight's first big question. Every night at this time, we are going to dig into one of the top stories of the day and tackle the question at the heart of it. Tonight, it is all about Sonia Sotomayor and race.
The judge was at the White House today working on the 10-page questionnaire she's going to have to submit to the Senate Judiciary Committee. We have got a question probably not on that list. Does race determine your politics?
And joining me now, we have got NPR contributor John Ridley, Republican strategist Karen Hanretty, CNN senior analyst Jeffrey Toobin with us tonight. He is of course the author of "The Nine: Inside the Secret World of the Supreme Court." And syndicated columnist and journalism professor Miguel Perez with us as well.
Welcome to everybody.
(CROSSTALK)
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: And welcome back.
BROWN: Thank you. Thanks very much.
OK. Jeff, let me start with you, since you have got this piece that just came out or that you wrote for "The New Yorker" that says identity has always been a factor in choosing a judge. This doesn't -- this is not a new thing, a debate that we just started having. Explain what you mean.
TOOBIN: Well, if you look at the history of the Supreme Court, the big political issue of the day was always identified with the people who are on the court.
For example, in the early days of the court, we were having regional fights in the country. So, they were state representatives. You had a New York justice, a Virginia justice. Then religion became a big issue. So, you had a Catholic seat and a Jewish seat.
Now race and gender are bigger, so groups that are coming into their own politically, African-Americans, Hispanics, women are demanding their seat at the table. It's part of American politics. There's nothing unusual about it.
BROWN: But don't you think this is different, the first Latino woman to be appointed or to hopefully be confirmed, from the Obama administration's perspective?
JOHN RIDLEY, COMMENTATOR, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO: I think it's different because it's a Latino woman, but I would agree with Jeffrey that this is just another example of change coming.
It was the same thing with Thurgood Marshall and in some ways with Clarence Thomas. And the question about race determining politics, I think you look at those two individuals, clearly, race didn't determine their politics. But their narrative, their background, their story and how they're arriving at these decisions was clearly determined by what they -- how they grew up and what they saw as young people in their developmental stages.
BROWN: No one thinks the scrutiny is different for white men than it would be for a Latino woman?
MIGUEL PEREZ, SYNDICATED COLUMNIST: Look, the Hispanic woman right now is getting tremendous scrutiny. There's been 100 and, what, six white men on the Supreme Court. This is the first time that a Latina is about to change the course of history.
TOOBIN: One hundred and six out of 110.
(CROSSTALK)
PEREZ: Right, 106 white men, two black men, two white women, and now a Latina. And, all of a sudden, everybody is so shook up over this? Why?
Obviously people are threatened by the fact that she -- they're trying to look for some kind of evidence to show that she's going to rule in favor of Latinos, when in fact there have been cases that demonstrate that she has been terribly objective, in fact, ruling against minorities in some issues.
So, you know, I don't know why they're trying to build up this racist case.
BROWN: So, why? Karen, explain why.
KAREN HANRETTY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: I take great exception that they're trying to build a racist case against her. And I don't think that you're seeing...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, they -- several have flat-out called her a racist. I mean, look at...
HANRETTY: Newt Gingrich has called her a racist.
I don't -- who on -- look, Lindsey Graham is out there backing away from this. Look at all of the Republican members who are going to -- they are. They're backing away from it because they don't believe that.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But not all are. Newt Gingrich is a very prominent Republican.
HANRETTY: Newt Gingrich doesn't get a vote.
BROWN: Rush Limbaugh.
HANRETTY: And he doesn't get a vote either, thank goodness, right? We haven't...
(CROSSTALK)
PEREZ: But where are the Republicans telling those guys to shut up? You know, this is the time when they have to step up and say, listen, this is totally uncalled for.
(CROSSTALK)
HANRETTY: No. I think that there's two things going on.
First of all, I think Republicans can engage in a fight with Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich at a time when they ought to be debating, rightfully so, like we do with every Supreme Court nominee, what are the qualifications? How's she judged in the past? And that's a legitimate discussion. And it's also legitimate I think to have this discussion about some of the things she's said about, is a Latina wiser than a white man? These are interesting debates that we should have.
RIDLEY: Wait a second. Yes, I think should have a debate.
HANRETTY: Or Republicans could just completely go off the deep end and debate with Rush Limbaugh and Newt Gingrich, neither of which have a vote, neither of which are ever going to get an opportunity to appoint anyone.
(CROSSTALK)
PEREZ: And both of which are about to sink the Republican Party.
(CROSSTALK)
RIDLEY: Let me just go back to that comment.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: The wise Latina comment, I know. It's what everyone is focused on.
(CROSSTALK)
RIDLEY: And I understand some people had some consternation about that.
But I think we can look at that comment and go, there's some truism there. The fact of the matter is that in the history of America, white men have made some very good decisions. However, there are a lot of instances they could have made better conclusions.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: ... better conclusion by the virtue of the fact that she's a Latina woman?
RIDLEY: Well, she's talking about the experiences that she has. She said that she would, not that she will, not that she is better, she would hope under certain circumstances she would arrive at better conclusions.
And, by the way, I would hope that a white male who led a more varied life would arrive at some better conclusions...
(CROSSTALK)
RIDLEY: ... a black man...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Do you agree with that?
TOOBIN: Well, virtually every Supreme Court justice who testifies before the Judiciary Committee talks about how their background informs them. Clarence Thomas talked about growing up in Pin Point, Georgia, and said he would look at -- sometimes at young black men accused of crime and think, there but for the grace of God go I.
Samuel Alito talked about being the son of Italian immigrants and that experience informed him. Now, it doesn't mean you come out the same way. But this is part of America. Everybody has their story. But, ultimate, what matters is how you come out, not where you come from.
HANRETTY: And we should be able to debate those things without being accused of racism.
And I understand what Newt is saying.
(CROSSTALK)
HANRETTY: But, look, they're not all Republicans. That is not the majority of Republicans. And you make -- you make that statement. That would mean I'm a racist.
(CROSSTALK)
PEREZ: ... insinuating, as many Republicans are, that somehow because -- she is only being picked because she is a Latina and therefore she doesn't have the mental capacity to be on the Supreme Court.
This is what they're implying. It is an insult to all of us.
HANRETTY: I don't think that is what they're implying.
BROWN: All right. We're going to end it there, guys.
The panel will be back to talk about another subject in just a few minutes.
But, first, should former Bush officials be prosecuted for war crimes? That's the question to former President Jimmy Carter. We have an exclusive interview.
Also, hear where he disagrees with President Obama on a key policy decision.
Plus, the big question, is Dick Cheney actually saving the Republican Party? It's our debate. Liz Cheney joins us live, with Paul Begala, for the "Great Debate."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Every night on this program, we're going to have an in- depth conversation with one of the day's newsmakers. And tonight that newsmaker is Jimmy Carter.
The 39th president was the driving force behind the 1978 Camp David Accords and the 1979 Egypt-Israel peace treaty. For decades, since leaving the White House, he's traveled the world promoting human rights and peace, winning the Nobel Peace Prize. So, he probably knows quite a bit about President Obama's foreign policy challenges right now. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The Muslim world is going to be paying very close attention to President Obama's speech in Egypt on Thursday of this week. If it were you giving that speech, what would you say?
JIMMY CARTER, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, first of all, let them know that there's no disharmony inherent between the Muslim world and the rest of the world, particularly the United States.
Secondly, I think the main issue on which they are concentrating their mind and have been for the last number of years is a lack of progress on the peace talks between Israel and the Palestinians.
In the meantime, in the last eight years or more, the situation has deteriorated rapidly, with no progress toward peace and with the increasing building of settlements, the strangling of the Palestinians within their own territory with checkpoints, and also the particularly devastating attacks on Gaza that have not still been repaired.
About 1.5 million Palestinians who live in Gaza, they have been bombed terribly. About 41,000 of their homes have been either destroyed or severely damaged. And not a single sack of cement or of a two by four has been let go in to repair the damage.
So, I think those are the kind of things that overwhelmingly are of interest, particularly of peace to Israel and peace to Israel's neighbors.
BROWN: I want to go beyond that, though, because if you look at the U.S. relationship today with the Muslim world, you could argue that there's been a lot of other -- have been a lot of other issues that have caused a lot of damage.
CARTER: That's true.
BROWN: One of those being the images of prisoner abuse at Abu Ghraib when they became public. And now we're hearing or learning that there are more pictures of detainee abuse, many arguing they should also be made public.
President Obama wants to keep them under wraps. Do you agree with his decision?
CARTER: No, but I respect what his decisions are. I don't have the responsibility to deal with the consequences.
But I think the -- most of his supporters were hoping that he would be much more open in the revelation of what we have done in the past. But he's made a decision with which I really can't contend that he doesn't want to resurrect the past, he doesn't want to punish those guilty of perpetrating what I consider crimes against our own laws and against our own Constitution.
And the revelation of those pictures might very well inflame further animosity against our country, causing some harm to our soldiers. So I don't agree with him, but I certainly don't criticize him for making that decision.
BROWN: But you don't agree with that point? Because he's made it, many in the military have made it, that it does fuel anger at American troops and could endanger them more.
CARTER: Well, I think it's hard to realize how much anger there already is based on the revelations that have already been made.
And any knowledgeable person within the Arab world or around the rest of the countries on Earth know that these pictures exist. They can now only imagine how bad they are. And maybe the actual publication of them wouldn't exacerbate an already bad situation.
BROWN: Weigh in, if you will, on the torture debate. What about prosecuting Bush administration officials who approved water-boarding and other harsh interrogation tactics? There's a real split in your party about this issue. What do you think?
CARTER: Well, I think prosecuting is too strong a word. What I would like to see is a complete examination of what did happen, the identification of any perpetrators of crimes against our own laws or against international law, and then, after all that's done, decide whether or not there should be any prosecutions. But the revelation of what did happen, I think, is what I would support.
BROWN: President Obama was the anti-war candidate. He's now a wartime president. And he has a new strategy in Afghanistan, sending in 17,000 additional troops. In your view, is that the right move?
CARTER: Well, I think Afghanistan should have been the concentration point ever since 9/11.
And the horrible mistake was abandoning Afghanistan after we had gone in and removed the perpetrators of some of the crimes and supporters of those who did commit 9/11 crime, and then abandon Afghanistan under a mistaken belief perpetrated by lies told by our own leaders that really the problem was over in Iraq, that the -- those who committed the crime of 9/11 had been associated with Saddam Hussein, that he was producing weapons of mass destruction and things of that kind.
So I think the concentration on Afghanistan is certainly well- placed.
BROWN: So now, you do agree, though, with his decision to expand efforts there?
CARTER: I think so. But I would like to see, you know, as much a concentration as possible on economic development and cooperation with the people of Afghanistan, and not rely so heavily on just military attacks, and some of which obviously have been revealed as severely harming civilians.
And I think this turns the Afghan people against us more than necessary. So, I would -- I would concentrate on the economic development of Afghanistan with roads and schools and hospitals and things of that kind.
BROWN: Right.
The Carter center promotes democratic elections. And this weekend you're traveling to Lebanon to observe their elections. Hezbollah expected to win those elections. The U.S., as you know, considers them terrorists. In the Palestinian elections, Hamas won, again considered terrorists by the U.S.
Does that trouble you?
CARTER: No.
The outcome of a free election doesn't trouble me. The Carter Center has been involved in about 75 elections, all of them troubled elections. Some of the three -- three best ones were in Palestine. And there's no doubt that, in January of 2006, Hamas did win the election fairly and squarely, and they offered to form a peaceful government, a unity government with Fatah.
But the United States and Israel didn't want to see that done. So now Hamas has been forced into an outcast roll, which I don't criticize the United States or condone Hamas.
But we will be going to Lebanon, at the request of all the parties in Lebanon. There are eight major parties, as you know. I think the outcome is certainly in doubt. Hezbollah and its coalition called the March 8 coalition now has a substantial role to play in the government. They might very well pick up some more seats.
My impression since we have been there since December observing very closely is that Hezbollah is not looking to -- their major goal is not to gain a majority in the government. I think they want to have enough participation in the government to avoid constitutional changes, that is, at least a third. They want to pick up some strength to show that they're popular. But their major goal is not to take over the government.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: If you want to see this interview again, log on to CNN.com any time.
Tomorrow, our newsmaker is former and perhaps future Republican presidential candidate Mitt Romney. Today, he blasted President Obama on foreign policy and accused the president of going on an apology tour.
Mitt Romney, again, our newsmaker right here tomorrow night.
President Obama on the eve of his first big trip to the Middle East, he says it is time to be honest with Israel. We are going to have the interview.
Plus, tonight's "Great Debate." The premise: Dick Cheney is saving the GOP. You agree or disagree? Liz Cheney, Paul Begala joining us live with both sides.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. Time now for tonight's briefing, some of the stories making news right now.
And here's Erica Hill to bring us up to speed.
Hi.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Nice to be back with you.
BROWN: yes.
HILL: OK.
Well, President Obama kicking off his big trip to the Middle East tomorrow. The headline here, his first address to the Muslim world. That happens Thursday in Cairo.
Israel of course is a huge sticking point. And today the president told National Public Radio the U.S. still strongly supports Israel, but a little truth wouldn't hurt.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Part of being a good friend is being honest, and I think there have been times where we are not as honest as we should be about the fact that the current direction, the current trajectory in the region is profoundly negative, not only for Israeli interests, but also U.S. interests.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
homeland The president also says he will continue to push for a Palestinian state and for a freeze on Israeli settlements in the West Bank.
There's an arrest in today's drive-by shooting at a military recruiting center in Little Rock, Arkansas, where one soldier was killed and another wounded. Military officials say they believe the suspect, a 24-year-old man from Little Rock, was specifically targeting military personnel and acting alone.
Former Vice President Dick Cheney speaking out again today, this time at the National Press Club, with a not-so-conservative take on same-sex marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHENEY: Freedom means freedom for everyone. And as many of you know, one of my daughters is gay and something that -- that we have lived with for a long time in our family. I think people ought to be free to enter into any kind of union they wish.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HILL: The former vice president went on to say it is for the states to decide, not the federal government. And if that sounds familiar, it should. He said the same thing during the 2004 campaign.
Before he was infamously identified at client number nine, former New York Governor Eliot Spitzer reportedly met regularly with prostitutes in multiple cities for at least a year-and-a-half. A lawyer for an escort booker tells the Associated Press one prostitute didn't know he was governor of New York until she saw him on TV.
And, finally, some long-lost pictures of Marilyn Monroe on what would have been her 83rd birthday. The shots were taken around 1950. She was just another 24-year-old starlet at time trying to make it big. They were discovered last month in a warehouse in New Jersey. The photographer tells "The Sarasota Herald-Tribune" he sent several rolls to "LIFE" magazine after the shoot. The response? Basically, who the heck is Marilyn Monroe?
Hindsight's 20/20, isn't it?
BROWN: Come on. They couldn't see the star within?
HILL: I know. She was a beautiful young woman at the time. So, just didn't make the cut.
BROWN: She was, indeed.
Erica Hill, we will see you again in a bit.
Coming up, tonight's "Great Debate." Is Dick Cheney saving the Republican Party? Liz Cheney joins us live, plus Paul Begala.
Also tonight, a doctor shot in cold blood at his church. Anderson Cooper investigates the alleged killer and why police had him years ago, but let him walk free.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody.
Every night at this time, "The Great Debate."
And, tonight, our subject is former Vice President Dick Cheney.
Camera-shy while in office, he's come out swinging as a private citizen, starting with his first big interview here on CNN. This was back in March.
Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JOHN KING")
JOHN KING, HOST: Do you believe the president of the United States has made Americans less safe?
RICHARD B. CHENEY, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And he has been at it ever since, seemingly on every channel at every opportunity.
So, tonight's "Great Debate" premise: Dick Cheney is saving the GOP.
Joining us now from Washington, D.C., the former vice president's daughter, Liz Cheney. She was deputy assistant secretary of state under President George W. Bush. We have also got CNN contributor and Democratic strategist Paul Begala with us, one-time adviser to former President Clinton and one of the masterminds of his '92 presidential campaign.
First, guys, we're going to have an opening statement from each of you.
We're going to put 30 seconds on the clock right now.
Paul Begala, I'm starting with you. And I'm going to going out on a limb here and guess you disagree.
(LAUGHTER)
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Dick Cheney may well be the salvation and future of the Democratic Party.
But, look, the Republicans they need change, the same way that the Democratic Party did. Vice President Cheney has his adherents and his admirers, but voters of the future tend to be younger. They tend to be more Hispanic. They tend to be more female than male.
And that's kind of outside of his comfort zone.
I will make this suggestion, though. Run, Dick, run. If he really wants to debate President Obama -- and he seems dying to do so -- file for president and run against him in 2012.
BROWN: All right.
Liz Cheney, your 30 seconds. Liz, go.
LIZ CHENEY, DAUGHTER OF FORMER VICE PRESIDENT DICK CHENEY: Well, I think, in a way, it's a little bit of a silly question -- sorry, Campbell -- because I think that the GOP party, first of all, doesn't need saving. I think that we have got a lot of young people, up and coming, and we have got the ideas on our side.
And, secondly, I think that, you know, what the vice president, what my dad is out there doing is talking about substance. And the points he's making are points that are important for the nation, points that are important for the party.
But, you know, being able to stand up and say, wait a minute, you know, closing Guantanamo and bringing terrorists to the United States is a bad idea. Releasing photos is a bad idea of our military members. Those things are good for the nation and good for the GOP.
BROWN: Let me follow up here with you, Liz. You know, when you say what he's doing is sort of raising a lot of policy questions, but what he's also doing is sort of a break with tradition in terms of what we've seen from former presidents or former vice presidents who have taken at least a break in the beginning of a new administration and not criticized a new president. Even George W. Bush right now holding his tongue. What do you think about that?
CHENEY: Well, I'm not so sure actually that's true. I mean, you just interviewed former President Carter and he's certainly has been one of the more outspoken critics of both presidents on the left and the right. So I think that we actually do have a pretty long-standing tradition of former presidents and vice presidents speaking out.
I also think that these circumstances are unique ones in which we've got issues facing the nation that in many instances really do put our national security at greater risk. And I think that my dad felt very strongly that it was important not to be silent in the face of mischaracterizations about the policies of the last eight years in the face of decisions that could potentially be taking us down the wrong path going forward.
BROWN: So is he or is it possible, Paul, in your view, that he could be putting a new sheen on some of the decisions made by the Bush administration?
BEGALA: I think he's certainly trying to. He's a student of history himself. I understand his wife, Liz's mom, is writing a history of James Madison. I actually can't wait to read that. She's a serious scholar.
And so I understand the desire. Churchill said, I intend to look good in the history books because I intend to write them."
Understand that the problem with that from a strategic point of view is it's all back often. It's not all often backward looking and today, for example, he made a big mistake factually. He said that Dick Clarke, the counterterrorism czar under Reagan, Bush, Clinton and Bush again, that he "missed it" on 9/11 and said he was not aware of Clarke sending warning signs.
Well, that's ample evidence 9/11 commission went on and on. Clarke was sending out e-mails warning everyone in sight. He was stopping, parking attendants and pizza delivery guys to warn them about the Al Qaeda threat. He even briefed Vice President Cheney himself in February of 2001. So I think he's got to be careful about reopening these debates with the past particularly on topics were he's at odds with the facts.
CHENEY: Well, I don't think that these debates are actually looking backward because I think we're still at war. And so I think that the way that you judge what happened in the last eight years and the way you make decisions about whether or not you should fight terrorism as a war or as a law enforcement matter, really matters very much going forward.
I think that, you know, if you look at recent reports we've seen that the administration has decided now to put the FBI back in the lead in its counterterrorism efforts, under the initiative called Global Justice Initiative, you know that ought to make a lot of people very concerned. The FBI was in the lead in a number of instances when, you know, they'd go in after the Khobar Towers bombing or after the Cole bombing, or after the East African embassy bombings. And what the FBI does is they go in afterwards and investigate and try to make a law enforcement case.
You know, we need our intelligence agencies out there in front so that they can go out ahead of time and try to prevent the attacks.
And, you know, with respect to Dick Clarke, you know, I think that there were a lot of people warning about noise in the system. I mean, we've all been through that. We've all heard about it. But I think it's flat wrong to say that there was anybody who was able to predict with the kind of specificity that would have enabled the policymakers to act on that prediction that 9/11 was coming.
So, you know, I'm sure, you know, you've seen Dick Clarke's book and he talks about it in his book. But in hindsight, you know, everybody has 20/20 vision as I'm sure, you know, he asserts that he did.
BROWN: OK, guys, stay with me. We are debating this premise tonight. Dick Cheney, is he saving the GOP?
Two very different opinions here but what I want to do when we come back from a break, for both of you, Liz and Paul, is try to find some place where you agree. Is there common ground? Hopefully we'll find it after the break. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with tonight's "Great Debate." The premise, Dick Cheney is saving the GOP.
We're hashing it out with the former vice president's daughter, Liz Cheney, and also Democratic strategist, CNN contributor, Paul Begala. And I just want to look if it is possible for a little common ground between the two of you.
Paul, is there any? BEGALA: Well, it wasn't a very long break for me to think of anything.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Come on, Paul.
BEGALA: Let me give you a couple -- the very first point that you raised with Liz. I think it's nonsense and not even a real tradition that former officeholders should go away and shut up. If they choose to, I respect that. But if they feel an obligation to speak out, they should do so without being attacked for breaking some dopey tradition.
When Vice President Gore, he waited 21 months and then he spoke out forcefully against the war in Iraq. And too many Democrats were too cowardly. They were, I think, buffaloed by the president or vice president at the time into supporting that war. I wish Al Gore had not felt as constrained by propriety. I wished he had spoken out more forcefully. So on that, Dick Cheney is right.
Second, he was absolutely right today and quite passionate I thought when he said people should be treated equally. He spoke out for marriage equality and he did so, I think in an almost inarguable American tradition of saying, people ought to be able to enter into whatever unions they want. And it's kind of an embarrassment for the Democrats, that most of my fellow Democrats are now not as progressive on gay marriage as Dick Cheney.
BROWN: Liz, do you agree with your father about that? Do you think the Republican Party should be adopting that position more generally?
CHENEY: Well, I do agree with him on it. I mean, I think that it's wrong for us to discriminate against people based on their sexual orientation.
You know, I also think Paul and I have some other areas of common ground. I think we both believe strongly that, you know, the future of the nation and the future of each of our parties is going to be built on substance and that we ought to be talking about the substance of these issues, that, you know, these debates really matter hugely. And sort of talking about, you know, the politics of who's up and who's down is much less important and I think interesting to people watching out there than, you know, the real substance of where our parties are on these issues.
And one other thing, I think Paul and I both agree that the world would be a better place if there are more fly fishermen in it.
BROWN: OK, that's an easy one. I do want you to pin you down, though, Liz. Do you think the Republican --
CHENEY: Yes.
BROWN: Especially given what he said today about gay marriage because -- your father putting himself out there sends a pretty strong message. Do you believe the Republican Party should embrace this?
CHENEY: Well, look, I mean, I can't speak for the whole Republican Party. I can tell you what I believe. And what I believe is that it's wrong to discriminate against people and that, you know, as my dad said today, people should be able to form, you know, whatever kind of relationships they'd like to form. So, you know, I agree with him. I think freedom ought to mean freedom for everybody.
BROWN: All right. We'll see where this issue goes.
Liz Cheney, Paul Begala, many thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
CHENEY: Thanks, Campbell.
BEGALA: Campbell, welcome back.
BROWN: Thank you.
BEGALA: Congratulations.
BROWN: Thank you very much. Good to be back.
We're going to have a new "Great Debate" every night on the show. Tomorrow's premise, America is too pro-Israel. Disagree or agree?
Two guests head to head. That is coming up tomorrow.
Not all the questions we're asking will shape world history but they're all worth talking about. The hottest star of reality TV is just the latest person to become overwhelmed by the price of fame.
Is reality television hurting people? We're going to get a little help ourselves answering that question next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And right now, we're going to tackle our third big question of the night. It's a provocative one. Does reality TV harm people?
Exhibit A, this weekend's finale of "Britain's Got Talent" and that's the show made a star of Susan Boyle, an unknown singer from a small town in Scotland. But her happily ever after moment went wrong when dance group Diversity won the competition. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How do you feel right now?
SUSAN BOYLE, FINALIST, "BRITAIN'S GOT TALENT": The best people won.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's very gracious of you. You said to me there, you became runner-up to very deserved winners. Do you feel that?
BOYLE: I really do. They're very entertaining. Guys, I wish you all the best.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's very, very gracious.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Boyle was gracious on camera but last night she was taken to a private clinic, reportedly suffering from exhaustion. So do real people pay too high a price for our guilty pleasures?
Back with me right now, John Ridley, Karen Hanretty and Jeffrey Toobin. And joining us from Los Angeles, Sharon Waxman, who's editor in chief of an entertainment Web site called the thewrap.com.
Sharon, let me start with you because I understand that you have some reporting that you're going to release tomorrow that shows -- what I found to be a shocking number of reality show participants have committed suicide.
SHARON WAXMAN, THEWRAP.COM: That's right. We have done an investigation and we have a two-part series that's going to start tomorrow as you say or late tonight, and we have found at least 13 people who have committed suicide in relation to their appearances on reality shows. That's everything from "Hell's Kitchen" to "Super Nanny" to "Extreme Makeover." It's everybody from a chef to a deputy district attorney to a boxer to a dad.
Now, you can say that you can't make a direct connection between these two events, but when you have that number of people who -- and they write things on the Web sites like I've been driven to despair or I'm suffering from depression as a result of all of the attacks on me, I'm getting 20 hate mails a day, at a certain point you have to really stop and think about what is the price of what you called our guilty pleasure of right now is just kind of been, you know, circus performers for us, what is now regular entertainment that used to be filled by trained actors and is now just regular folks.
BROWN: John, you worked in Hollywood for years.
JOHN RIDLEY, NPR CONTRIBUTOR: Unfortunately, yes, I do. You know, I would agree.
Look, you look at those numbers and they look kind of scary. But the reality is even people who want to be performers, who spend their life working towards entertainment really can't handle fame all the time that well. I mean, there have been a litany of individuals who committed suicide or gone over the edge or pick up their cell phones and throw them at people because they're trying to help them.
So look, there is a problem with fame. I think that's the thing to be recognized but there's another issue, too. You can look at some people who had fame dropped on them with Jennifer Hudson, who didn't even win "American Idol" but went on to have a fantastic career and has handled success and tragedy extremely well.
BROWN: I think you can make the case obviously these are adults who made a decision to participate in these shows or whatever, but I think what bothers me in talking about this is when young kids are involved in this and these have been also big stories. "Jon and Kate Plus Eight."
And then check out this 10-year-old girl who broke down in tears. This is again on "Britain's Got Talent." Just watch what happened.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "BRITAIN'S GOT TALENT")
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. That's all right.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Honestly, I can barely watch it.
RIDLEY: The only missing is the lines.
BROWN: No. I mean, she forgets the words to the song and she loses it. And my heart breaks. I've watched it twice now.
I know. All right. I'm a mother. I'm a little emotional, Jeffrey.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: I know. I'm sorry.
BROWN: But still, don't laugh.
TOOBIN: It's sad. I agree.
BROWN: In all seriousness --
TOOBIN: But kids sing on TV all the time. I mean, that's been true since the dawn of television. Right?
WAXMAN: There's a couple of different --
BROWN: Go ahead, Sharon.
WAXMAN: There's a couple of categories here. Well, I mean, I personally always thought that things like "American Idol" are generally pretty benign in the reality show circus that we've had whether from "Fear Factor" from way back in the day when Jerry Springer was the only thing going, and that was the only spectacle around.
But here we find that even on what's basically a pretty straightforward talent competition where the purpose is not to humiliate, you still have fallout from that and you still have -- it's just overwhelming and it's actually in some cases beyond the ability of the show itself to control because the Susan Boyle thing happened and that wasn't even created by "Britain's Got Talent."
TOOBIN: The whole idea behind reality television is you take ordinary people and put them in extraordinary situations whether it's "Survivor" which is my particular field of expertise, or other reality shows. And I guess it's not surprising that some people freak out a little bit.
BROWN: But you look at --
TOOBIN: But you know, a lot of people freak out without being on TV. You know?
BROWN: But Karen...
RIDLEY: No restrictions on reality TV?
WAXMAN: But Jeffrey --
BROWN: ... you look at "Jon and Kate" -- hold on. Hold on one second, Sharon.
"Jon and Kate Plus Eight" show, which has been a huge story over the last few weeks...
HANRETTY: Right.
BROWN: And these children that are involved, I mean, can you make a case that children shouldn't be involved even if their parents do give permission.
HANRETTY: Well, this is kind of --
WAXMAN: I would -- I would --
BROWN: Hold on one second. Karen, go ahead.
HANRETTY: It seemed, you know, look, in the beginning it was the kind of novel, this family was very novel and we got to sneak peek into something that most of us I think couldn't even imagine having to, you know, raise all of these children at the same time. But then as their personal lives really kind of take this nosedive, whether it's real or contrived, you think, do you want your children seeing everything about your personal life?
You don't want to expose your children I think to a lot of these very private things that you're going. They're going to have to have questions about in the future. Their friends are going to ask them. I don't know why you do that to your children.
TOOBIN: You do that if you're crazy and the people on reality TV are crazy.
BROWN: OK, Sharon, last word. Go ahead.
WAXMAN: That's too much. That's not fair to say either, even though I say out at the same time that octomom now has her own reality show. But I mean so much in television is now populated by reality shows. So I think that's a vast overstatement, Jeffrey.
And you can't blame people who just want to come on a show like Susan Boyle who just wanted to sing after all. I mean, why do you want to blame the woman for -- (CROSSTALK)
TOOBIN: You know, I totally, I totally apologize to the reality community. And you, I think I was making an overstatement.
BROWN: And as much as I would love to continue this discussion, we've got to go.
Guys, many thanks to the panel. Appreciate your time tonight.
"LARRY KING LIVE" just minutes away. He's got the families of two American journalists. We talked about this a little earlier that are being held prisoner in North Korea.
Larry, tell us a little more.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": First and foremost, welcome back, Campbell.
BROWN: Thank you. I appreciate that.
KING: It's really good to see you.
BROWN: Good to see you too.
KING: Congratulations. Baby healthy?
BROWN: Yes. He is adorable.
KING: That's all that counts.
By the way, as you mentioned, we've got a primetime exclusive tonight with the families of the two Americans, Laura Ling and Euna Lee, both held in North Korea scheduled to go on trial this week.
Lisa Ling says the situation regarding her sister and her sister's colleague is "terrifying." Will the relatives pleas for freedom be heard in North Korea? And we're seen there. We'll try. Next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: And, Larry, we'll be watching. Thanks very much. See you shortly.
KING: Thanks.
BROWN: Tonight's breakout story, the abortion doctor shot to death in his church during Sunday services. There are new developments tonight. Anderson Cooper is going to be here with the very latest when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back. Every night we do want to bring you a breakout story from around the globe. These are the kind of stories that break through the noise for us and tonight's, of course, is the killing of a Kansas doctor who was among the few performing late-term abortions.
You may have heard, he was gunned down this weekend not at his clinic but at his church where he's served as an usher. And this evening more than 100 people, some of whom knew Dr. George Tiller gathered outside the White House to mourn his death.
We're following new developments in the case right now. My colleague, "AC 360" anchor Anderson Cooper, is here with a lot of new developments for us.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR, "AC 360": Yes. There are a number of new developments and I'm also learning new information, primarily about the suspect.
This is basically an act of domestic terror, a cold-blooded assassination. The new information tonight is about the shooting as well as the alleged shooter. This is the man, Scott Roeder, accused of killing Dr. George Tiller who performed as you said, Campbell, late-term abortions in Kansas for decades now.
Tonight, we're learning a lot more about him. He's 51 years old. He's a factory worker. And he's no stranger to the law.
Back in 1996, police stopped his car and they reportedly found bomb-making material as well as a gun and a gas mask. Now, even though a judge at the time said he was, and I quote, "a significant threat to the safety of the community," the case against him was thrown out because of an unreasonable search.
BROWN: So what are we hearing from Roeder's family members?
COOPER: We're hearing from the family members and also people who knew him. Scott Roeder's family actually released a statement calling him "kind and loving," but they acknowledge he suffers from mental illness.
He was also reportedly a member of the Montana Freemen, that group, an anti-government group. Also someone using his name posted some chilling messages on Operation Rescue's Web sites saying that Dr. Tiller needed to be stopped.
One entry Tiller's clinic as a death camp. He has his supporters, though, Roeder does, among them a friend. He says the killing of Dr. Tiller was not murder and believes it was the best thing that could have happened.
Campbell, that is just the beginning. We're going to have a lot more. In fact, we're going to talk to another doctor who performs this same kind of late-term abortion and he says that every day he expects to be shot. He's living under constant threat.
BROWN: All right. We'll see you at 10:00 Eastern time tonight. Anderson Cooper, thanks.
COOPER: Thanks. BROWN: And we're going to move on to the Saturday night date that you didn't get to go on even though you may have helped pay for it. What the White House is saying about Barack and Michelle Obama's big night out right here in New York City. That is in tonight's "Political Daily Briefing" when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Time now for the "PDB," our "Political Daily Briefing." Erica Hill back with me right now, and we are getting a rare peek inside the world of a former first lady, her views on the man now in the Oval Office.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a lady we don't hear from very often, and that would be Nancy Reagan. She's opening up in a new interview with "Vanity Fair" on life without her husband of more than 50 years.
She tells the magazine it doesn't get any easier and that she still speaks to the former president, saying, "It sounds strange but I see Ronnie. At nighttime, if I wake up, I think Ronnie's there, and I start to talk to him. It's not important what I say but the fact is I do think he's there and I see him."
She also talks about feeling slighted by President Obama when he didn't invite her to the ceremony and asking the reversal of President Bush's policy on embryonic stem cell research because, of course, Campbell, she's a big proponent of that research.
BROWN: And then to lighten things up a bit from the former first lady to the current vice president, we saw a relaxed Joe Biden over the weekend.
HILL: Yes, very relaxed and I don't think she talked about this at all in terms of advice for dealing with the paparazzi on the beach but for some reason people love to look for a world leader in a bathing suit.
So we have a shot for you of the veep down the shore as they say in Jersey. Of course, the president had a few beach shots of his own from his family's Hawaiian vacation not long before taking office. You can see the two side by side there.
BROWN: Yes. I wonder which one's been doing their ab work. No. No. Not fair.
OK, the president caused, of course, quite a stir over the weekend with the first lady here in New York. They drove right by my apartment.
HILL: They did.
BROWN: Yes.
HILL: It's funny. I felt like everybody I talked to was looking out for them. Well, the president getting a lot of attention for that trip today right here in New York City, as Campbell said, right by her apartment.
Mr. Obama and the first lady making -- Mr. Obama made good on his campaign promise to take her to New York. They dined in the hip west village neighborhood and then made her way to the Broadway production of Joe Turner's "Come and Gone."
While they may have enjoyed the evening, plenty of folks up in arms over the outing including a number of Republicans because it happened, of course, just before GM's official bankruptcy announcement. And while the president may have paid for dinner and the show, travel and security costs may fall on the hands of taxpayers.
Asked about it at today's White House briefing, Press Secretary Robert Gibbs said the Obamas would have been perfectly happy to use a commercial shuttle to New York but the Secret Service, he said, wouldn't allow it, Campbell.
BROWN: Yes, can't imagine they would.
HILL: Probably not.
BROWN: (INAUDIBLE) for the first couple anymore.
HILL: So you have a little bit of a controversy there.
Welcome back, though, by the way.
BROWN: Thank you.
HILL: And I heard you tell Larry King that your little man -- your new little man is adorable.
BROWN: I knew you're going to ask me for a picture.
HILL: But I still haven't seen the picture.
BROWN: I know. Is it the second child, you just don't take pictures of? I'll have them tomorrow night.
HILL: I'm a second child but my parents have pictures. So come on, cough them up.
BROWN: OK. OK. Tomorrow night. Tomorrow night, I promise.
That is it for us. Erica, thanks as always.
I'm Campbell Brown. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
