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Campbell Brown
Interview With Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney; Should U.S. Get Tough With Israel?
Aired June 02, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. Is President Obama trying too hard to appease the Muslim world? As he leaves for his big speech at Cairo, he's getting criticism at home.
MITT ROMNEY (R), FORMER MASSACHUSETTS GOVERNOR: I take issue with President Obama's recent tour of apology.
BROWN: I will ask Mitt Romney what's wrong with mending fences.
The other big question, should the U.S. get tough with Israel?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We are a stalwart ally of Israel, and it is in our interests, in our interests to assure that Israel is safe and secure.
BROWN: They're our strongest ally in the region, but is it time to draw a line in the sand?
And is President Obama more like Ronald Reagan than Bill Clinton?
OBAMA: We may see the world differently, but we must never stop seeing one another as fellow Americans and as patriots.
BROWN: Is it morning in America in the Obama White House?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now.
Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. And we're tackling those questions tonight.
Plus, is President Obama letting Iran go nuclear? The president's remarks on Iran in an interview with the BBC getting a lot of attention today. We're going to tell you what he said coming up.
But we start tonight, as we do every night now, with the "Mash- Up." It's our look at the stories making impact right now, our must- see moments of the past 24 hours. We're watching it all, so you don't have to. And, right now, President Obama aboard Air Force One, he's headed to Saudi Arabia on a mission to mend fences with the Muslim world. In an interview with NBC News, the president tried to manage expectations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: One speech is not going to transform very real policy differences and some very difficult issues surrounding the Middle East and the relationship between Islam and the West.
What I hope will happen as a consequence of this speech is people will have a better sense of how America views its relationship to the broader world and to Islam.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Right on cue, al Qaeda has released a new audiotape saying Obama is not welcome in Egypt.
Octavia Nasr, CNN senior editor for Arab affairs, boils it down to the basics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: He's basically saying, we hate you.
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: He's saying, we hate you.
Experts will look at this and say that al Qaeda is nervous about President Obama's ideas of openness, President Obama's idea to speak to the Muslim world.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And the president delivers his big speech on Thursday.
Just hours ago, the search for a missing Air France jet came to a tragic conclusion.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Brazil's defense minister is now confirming the crash of the Air France Flight 447, based on a three- mile-long debris field found in the Atlantic Ocean near the plane's flight crash, confirming this was the debris from the plane.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: There were 228 passengers on the doomed flight. And tonight there are almost as many theories into what actually brought it down. Listen to this. This is a senior Air France pilot who has flown the same route many times. He spoke with our international affiliates.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And anything could have happened, maybe a collision with another aircraft, maybe a military aircraft, maybe a drug-smuggling aircraft. Maybe it's a shooting star flying from the sky and hit the aircraft. Any possible thing could have happened. When it's one chance out of one million, anything is possible.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The crash of Flight 447 is our breakout story tonight. We're going to have a lot more on this coming up a little bit later in the show.
To Capitol Hill now, where Judge Sonia Sotomayor stepped into what looked like a bipartisanship lovefest. She was swarmed by cameras. The judge kept quiet as the senators gushed.
Here's a mini-recap of the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. HARRY REID (D-NV), MAJORITY LEADER: I have been very impressed with learning everything I have about you.
SEN. JEFF SESSIONS (R), ALABAMA: It was a delight to talk to her. I enjoyed the conversation.
SEN. RICHARD DURBIN (D), ILLINOIS: It was a great meeting. I think the president has made an extraordinarily good choice.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Behind closed doors, though, Judge Sonia Sotomayor doing a little damage control. Her clear message to senator after senator, her ethnicity won't guide her hand on the high court.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: It is so obvious in what she says and in her 17-year record as a judge that she puts rule of law first in every way.
SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT), JUDICIARY COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: She said ultimately and completely, a judge has to follow the law, no matter what their upbringing has been.
SESSIONS: She used those words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: No date yet for those confirmation hearings.
And, for us, this was the picture of the day: Nancy Reagan at the White House, where President Obama signed a bill setting up commemorations of her husband's 100th birthday in 2011. Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And you have plenty of presidential pens.
(LAUGHTER)
OBAMA: God bless you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Does President Obama take after Ronald Reagan, or is he more in the mold of Bill Clinton? We will tackle that a little bit later tonight. And that's tonight's "Mash-Up."
We're now going to turn to tonight's big question. Is President Obama letting Iran go nuclear? His comments to the BBC are creating a lot of buzz today. Listen to what he said in response to a question about Tehran's nuclear program.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Without going into specifics, what I do believe is that Iran has legitimate energy concerns, legitimate aspirations. On the other hand, the international community has a very real interest in preventing a nuclear arms race in the region.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And it's that phrase "legitimate aspirations" that is causing the controversy.
So, is the president opening a door now to a nuclear Iran, as some suggest?
Joining us now to talk about this, CNN senior -- or chief international correspondent Christiane Amanpour, Fawaz Gerges, professor of international affairs and Middle Eastern stories at Sarah Lawrence College, CNN senior analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and Cliff May, president of the Foundation for Defense of Democracies, a conservative political group that tracks terrorism.
And, Cliff, let me start with you.
I can guess what your reaction is, but I want to get your take on the president's comments.
CLIFF MAY, PRESIDENT, FOUNDATION FOR THE DEFENSE OF DEMOCRACIES: Campbell, I'm not going to hyperventilate. My belief is that it would be unfair to say that Obama has opened the door for Iran to have nuclear weapons at this point simply because he said, look, we would have no objection to Iran having nuclear energy.
We have said the same thing about North Korea for the past two administrations. And I think if this regime were not threatening death to America and threatening to wipe Israel off the map, we certainly wouldn't have any concerns. The problem is that nobody seriously believes that all Iran is trying to do is develop nuclear energy for peaceful uses, so that everybody can power up their iPods and commuters. It's the nuclear weapons we worry about.
I think Obama is trying very hard to show respect and to show that it's a new day and to reach out a hand in friendship and engagement. But I also think that hand is going to get slapped down rather quickly.
BROWN: And, Christiane, isn't that the problem, is no one thinks we can trust Iran?
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, that's obviously a big issue, the whole trust deficit.
Iran has is a member of the NPT, Non-Proliferation Treaty. It has said for a long time that it needs nuclear development for civilian use. And the real thing is that it is, under the international laws, allowed, but the whole issue is the trust deficit.
President Obama has said several times that Iran should not be allowed to get a nuclear weapon. And he said it again with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu a couple of weeks ago in the White House. He said that there's going to be a new method of reaching out and dealing by his administration.
They are going to try dialogue and engagement to resolve some of these issues, rather than the threat of force and isolation.
BROWN: But is this -- this is being viewed as a concession by some, what he is saying about legitimate aspirations, and we should give that some consideration, right?
AMANPOUR: I don't think it's a concession. I think others have said that in the past and pointed out to the -- I mean, I don't know what President Obama meant, to be frank. I'm not a spokesman.
But, certainly, for the -- the way it's been seen is that Iran does have the right. But the thing is, it needs also to comply with all the IAEA protocols, with all the -- the inspectors, and with all those things.
And the whole trust deficit is the issue, which they're trying to bridge.
FAWAZ GERGES, EXPERT ON MIDDLE EASTERN STUDIES, SARAH LAWRENCE COLLEGE: Let me turn the question on its hat and say that it's not President Barack Obama who is basically sanctioning Iran's becoming a nuclear power. It was President W. Bush, policies of confrontation and threats, that basically brought Iran a step closer to clearing the technological hurdles to acquiring a nuclear weapon.
What Barack Obama is trying to do is to basically shift the debate and basically provide assurances to the Iranian leadership that, yes, you have the rights. Yes, we guarantee that you have the civilian rights to develop nuclear activities, and basically take it a step further and reassure the fears and the concerns of the Iranian leadership.
I think this is the way to go, political engagement. The policies of W. Bush failed. Let's see whether Barack Obama could deliver to convince the Iranian leadership.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: If you remember, back in the campaign, the primary campaign, between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama, this was one of the big points of contention, because Obama said about Iran specifically the way to make progress is negotiation.
You don't negotiate with your enemies -- you don't negotiate with your friends. You negotiate with your enemies. Now the test begins. Let's see if Iran can take yes for an answer, if it can engage, reach out to Obama, the way he's reaching out to them. A lot of people think they won't.
(CROSSTALK)
GERGES: You know, Jeff, what we need to understand here is that the Iranian leadership basically says that it does not want to basically develop a nuclear bomb.
We know that it's trying to develop a nuclear bomb. I mean, there is -- basically, Iran is -- there's a race now between Iran trying to clear the last technological hurdles and the American strategy to basically provide Iran with a package, a package of incentives in order to shift basically the reality that exists on the ground.
BROWN: And, Cliff, let me bring you in, though. Do you think he's pursuing the right strategy?
MAY: I don't think talking is a strategy. I think talking is a tactic. At the end of the day, it's what you say.
And I think it's true that you can have incentives. Look, if you will cooperate, if you will give up the idea of developing nuclear weapons and the missiles to deliver them, stop talking about death to America and wiping Israel off the map, we can have very good relations.
I don't think that the real powers in Iran, which are (INAUDIBLE) powers that believe and have believed for the whole 30 years since the revolution, and Khomeini believed long before that, that Iran's goal in life is to be the agent by which Islam is restored to the glory it enjoyed between the 8th and 18th centuries, to destroy Israel, to destroy America.
(CROSSTALK)
MAY: That is its goal. Now, beside -- but I have to say this.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Quickly, Cliff.
MAY: Just besides this, you have incentives, and then you have disincentives. And I think both will be necessary at the end of the day.
BROWN: Christiane?
AMANPOUR: Well, look, the reality is this. And let's just pare it down to its basics.
For 30 years, the United States and Iran have been confronting each other and at loggerheads. And isolation and -- and distance has been the -- the word of the day and the policy of the day. Now they are going to try something different, because, guess what? Isolation and just punitive measures didn't work.
So they're going to try, as they say, all the tools in their kit, which is diplomacy. The president has already put a little bit of a timeline on it, which some people think is a bit strange. He has talked about end of a year for a process that has lasted three years.
On the other hand, many in the -- in Iran who I have spoken to and right up to the top of the leadership chain have told -- have said that they are willing, if there is perceived to be real change from the United States, to enter a new strategic relationship...
BROWN: Right.
AMANPOUR: ... based on mutual interests, mutual respect, and -- and mutual dignity.
BROWN: And we have to end it there.
Fawaz, I'm sorry. We're out of time. But we are going to talk about this a little bit more with tonight's newsmaker. mitt Romney is going to be here. And he's slamming President Obama's Mideast trip before it even starts.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROMNEY: Making the headline of the trip apology and denigration of America, that's the wrong course.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Also, hear where Mitt Romney disagrees with Dick Cheney -- that interview coming up next.
Plus, tonight's "Great Debate": Should the U.S. get tough on Israel?
When we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back. Now it's time for tonight's newsmaker interview, where we go in- depth with the most important and thought-provoking people in the world.
And, tonight, it's the man many expect will take another shot at the White House in 2012, former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney. Just yesterday, Romney, sounding much like a candidate in waiting, slammed President Obama on foreign policy.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: You have been speaking out -- and correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you are suggesting the president's outreach to the Muslim world -- including this trip -- is, in your view, one big apology tour.
What's wrong with the president's efforts to mend fences?
ROMNEY: No harm in speaking with other people, but if you look at his last trip to Europe, and also the comments that he made on Arabia TV as he became president, I think you could become very troubled, as I have been.
On Arab TV he said that America dictates to other nations. In fact, America has sacrificed more to free people from dictators than any nation I know. And with regards to his apology to in Europe, it was simply misguided. Even London's "Guardian" newspaper said that no American president has been more critical of his own country while on foreign soil than President Obama.
That's a distinction I wouldn't want under any circumstances. But now with Iraq and particularly North Korea pursuing nuclear weaponry, that's not the kind of apology tour I think is appropriate.
BROWN: But can't you argue that we at least have some mistakes to account for?
What about Abu Ghraib?
ROMNEY: Of course we've made mistakes. There's no question about that. Any nation's going to make mistakes. They're not a lot of perfect nations.
There are perfect people in the history of the earth. But one thing's for sure and that is that America's greatness, America's contributions towards peace and towards security, towards prosperity for people of the world, far overshadow the mistakes. And going overseas as the "Guardian" indicated and being more critical of America, than any nation in our history, is not necessary.
Playing to the crowd, trying to get Europeans who are critical of America to think better of us because we criticized ourselves is not the way to go. Standing up for freedom and democracy and indicating that we're going to stand with our friends around the world is the right course. So, sure, reaching out to other nations and to Muslims in particular is a wise course. But making the headline of the trip apology and denigration of America, that's the wrong course.
BROWN: Looking forward, and you reference this, the central question in the Middle East is likely going to be Iran. If you had to make a prediction one year from now, will or won't Iran in your view, have a nuclear weapon?
ROMNEY: I don't think we know how quickly they're developing a nuclear weapon. I think my prediction would be that the Obama administration is going to say, as the president did today, that Iran has the right to nuclear power, legitimate need for nuclear power. There will be some kind of an agreement, perhaps, that we try and work out, where they say they're just going to be using their nuclear technology for power purposes.
And, of course, behind the scenes they'll move just as North Korea has to develop a nuclear weapon.
And diplomats like to slap themselves in the back and congratulate each other for agreement even though they recognize that there's not a chance in the world that the other party's going to honor it. I'm afraid we're going to do the same thing in Iran. That the right course for Iran is just like the right course for North Korea. It's tough regime -- regime-crippling sanctions that are comprehensive, that means involving other nations. That's the right course for us, not get -- you know, get the soft kind of approaches.
BROWN: Governor, let me turn to domestic politics. A fair amount of infighting doing on right now in the Republican Party. Rush Limbaugh said recently, Colin Powell needs in his view, to become a Democrat.
Do you agree with that?
ROMNEY: No, I think a minority party needs everybody we can get. So, I'm not cutting anybody off in the Republican Party right now.
Maybe if we had 80 percent of the votes, we could think about that. But, we need to bring people together and I want those that are on all dimensions of our party to come together.
I remember what Ronald Reagan said. It was, you know, if somebody agrees with me 80 percent of the time, he's my ally, not my opponent. And I want to bring in every Republican, whether it's Newt Gingrich or Colin Powell or whoever it might be and to make sure that they agree on the most important issues. And I think by in large Republicans do. And certainly, we're not squabbling amongst ourselves anywhere near as much as some would have other folks believe.
BROWN: Well, to that point, on the issues specifically, let me ask you about what Dick Cheney said yesterday. He said that same-sex marriage is OK in his view, as long as it's decided state by state.
What do you make of that statement?
ROMNEY: Well, that's his opinion. You don't expect of course...
BROWN: Do you agree?
ROMNEY: No. That's not my view. I base my view clear from the very beginning. I'm not in favor of same-sex marriage. I believe that marriage should be a relationship between a man and a woman.
And given the fact that people travel from state to state in this country and move to different states, I would prefer there be a national standard on marriage, a national amendment to make sure that marriage is between a man and a woman.
But, the fact that Vice President Cheney has a different view is certainly his prerogative. We still stay Republicans, even though of course we don't all agree on every single issue.
BROWN: Let me -- let me ask you as a final question, we're trying to challenge people to find common ground on this show when possible. So, let me ask you to tell us one thing that you think the president is doing right.
ROMNEY: Oh, I think he's done a number of things correctly. I think he was right to reverse course on not releasing the pictures of detainees. I think he was right to reverse course on the military tribunals. I think he was right to reverse course on the idea of indefinite detention for terrorists.
I think he was right to reverse course on withdrawing our troops immediately from Iraq. Frankly, whenever he reverses course and adopts the positions that John McCain put forward on the campaign, you're going to find me saying, nice job.
BROWN: All right. Governor Romney, we appreciate your time tonight.
Thanks so much.
ROMNEY: Thanks so much, Campbell. Good to be with you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And you can watch more of that interview anytime online. Just go to CNN.com.
An American icon no longer owned in the USA. GM sells the Hummer to China.
Plus, the "Great Debate" tonight -- should the U.S. get tough in Israel?
When we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back.
Time to check on some of the stories making news right now.
Deb Feyerick's here with tonight's briefing -- Deb.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey there, Campbell.
Well, a guilty verdict for a Chicago cop caught on camera beating up a female bartender. You might remember the video two years ago. Anthony Abbate claimed self-defense, saying the female bartender pushed him first. He weighs 250 pounds. She's about half that, tipping the scales at 125. The officer faces five years for aggravated battery, and he will probably get fired from the force.
The suspect in the shooting of Kansas Dr. George Tiller has been charged with first-degree murder. Scott Roeder is accused of killing Tiller in church. Tiller was one of the few U.S. doctors who performed late-term abortions. Tiller's associates Roeder was a regular protester at the doctor's Wichita clinic.
And California is just about broke, and, today, Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger didn't try to sugarcoat it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER (R), CALIFORNIA: Our wallet is empty. Our bank is closed. And our credit has dried up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: The governor wants lawmakers to pass another bare- bones budget, with huge cuts to schools, health care and state workers.
With a budget deficit of more than $24 billion, the governor says the state will run out of cash in 14 days. They're on their last paycheck.
And the symbol of America's big SUV era will live on. Today, General Motors announced a deal to unload its Hummer brand to a Chinese company. That will save some 3,000 jobs, as the new owner plans to keep building Hummers in Shreveport, Louisiana. GM is downsizing now that it has filed for bankruptcy.
And, finally, well, if you saw the "MTV Movie Awards" the other night, you have been wondering, was it real, that whole thing with comedian Sacha Baron Cohen landing rear end first on rapper Eminem's face -- naked rear end, I should add. One of the writers on the show revealed today that it was all a stunt and rehearsed in advance in full costume, apparently, which means Eminem had to go through with it twice.
BROWN: I never thought I would say I feel bad for Eminem. But that was brutal.
(LAUGHTER)
FEYERICK: Yes, the hilarious scene from "Borat," that's...
BROWN: Yes. Deb Feyerick for us tonight -- Deb, we will see you a little bit later.
Tonight's "Great Debate" coming up, the premise: The U.S. should get tough on Israel, do you agree or disagree? We are going to hear from two very different and very passionate points of view.
Also, take a look at this: a White House moment today. What do you think. Is Obama more like Reagan or more like Clinton? We will talk about that as well.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. I'm Campbell Brown.
Every night at this time, the "Great Debate."
And we have been talking tonight about the Middle East, with our new president as we speak headed there to reach out to the Muslim world. Just before leaving, Mr. Obama met with the Israeli defense minister, Ehud Barak, at the White House, again pressing for a freeze on West Bank settlements.
Just yesterday, the president promised a more -- quote -- "honest dialogue" with Israel.
So, tonight's premise, the U.S. should get tough with Israel.
Joining us right now to debate that, from Cambridge, Massachusetts, Alan Dershowitz, attorney and Harvard Law professor, his book "The Case For Moral Clarity: Israel, Hamas and Gaza," and, from San Francisco, Rabbi Michael Lerner. He's the editor of the Jewish-American political magazine -- political magazine, rather -- "Tikkun."
And, first, we're going to have an opening statement from each of you. You have got 30 seconds each on the clock.
Rabbi Lerner, please begin.
RABBI MICHAEL LERNER, EDITOR, TIKKUN.ORG: Well, I rejoice in President Obama's new direction, in his willingness to rethink the old dogmas that guided the United States in the 20th century.
In the 21st century, the best interests of the United States and Israel will depend on three key things, number one, recognizing that our well-being as -- as Americans or as Israelis or as Jews -- I'm a rabbi -- depends upon the well-being of everyone else on the planet.
Number two, that homeland security cannot be achieved through domination and military power alone. It requires a new spirit of generosity and caring for others. And I think part of what President Obama's trying to do is to bring that to the -- to the Middle East.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: OK.
All right, professor Dershowitz, go ahead.
ALAN DERSHOWITZ, AUTHOR, "THE CASE FOR MORAL CLARITY: ISRAEL, HAMAS AND GAZA": We should get tough on Iran, Hamas, al Qaeda and other terrorist groups that endanger America.
But, at a time, when -- I agree with Rabbi Lerner -- we are appropriately reaching out in a conciliatory tone to many of our terrorist enemies, we should not be singling out a democratic ally, in Israel, to get tough.
But Rabbi Lerner doesn't want us to get tough with Iran or North Korea. This is what he recently wrote -- quote -- "What exactly gives us the moral right to be lecturing North Korea or even Iran on who should or should not have nuclear weapons?"
So, let me understand Rabbi Lerner. He wants to get tough on Israel, our ally, but not get tough on Iran or North Korea. That's backwards.
BROWN: Go ahead, Rabbi.
LERNER: What I actually -- yes, what I actually want is for us to be really caring about Israel. To really care about Israel at this historical moment means to say no to its right-wing government and to the right-wing forces that we have nurtured over the course of the past 30 or 40 years, and instead say yes to those Israelis, strong number of Israelis, who are for peace and recognize that Israeli's best interests involve ending the occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, creating a Palestinian state, providing reparations for Palestinians as well as for Jews who have fled Arab lands, when they were oppressed there, and creating a whole new spirit. And that new spirit is what will bring peace not more military obstinance, not refusal to dismantle the settlements in the West Bank, not demanding that...
BROWN: OK.
LERNER: ... when Israel has the right to expand those settlements. That's not going to help Israel. It's the opposite.
BROWN: Let's give Professor Dershowitz a chance to respond.
DERSHOWITZ: I, too, am in favor of reaching out. I, too, am in favor of making peace. I, too, am against the settlements and the occupation.
The question is not to condition American defense of Israel from Iranian nuclear weapons or from Hamas terrorism on political issues with Israel. The vast majority of Israelis want to see peace. They want to see a two-state solution.
Remember that in 2000-2001, Israel offered to end the entire occupation of the West Bank, the entire occupation of the Gaza, simply in exchange for recognition. The Palestinians said no, as they have for 60 years. It's tough to get tough. It's time to get tough on those who are barriers to peace, not those who sought peace for all of these years.
BROWN: But let me have you assess, as Rabbi Lerner did, Professor Dershowitz, President Obama's strategy or the way he's approaching it now.
DERSHOWITZ: Well, I favor President Obama's strategy. Generally, what he's saying is not getting tough with Israel but getting smart with Israel.
Yes, the United States will prevent Iran from getting a nuclear weapon no matter what it takes. Secretary of Defense Gates said that about North Korea, and they've said it about Iran as well.
Let's be smart. Let's obviously work with Israel and with the Palestinians to have mutual concessions. Let the Palestinians dismantle their infrastructure of terrorism. Let Israel have a freeze on the settlements. But getting tough sends the wrong message at a time when the Obama -- when the Obama administration is being conciliatory to our enemies. Getting tough with our friends and allies sends exactly the wrong message.
BROWN: Rabbi Lerner, go ahead.
LERNER: I don't think -- yes, Obama is not being conciliatory towards our enemies. He is being smart towards our enemies.
DERSHOWITZ: Oh, why not be smart toward Israel?
LERNER: And it would be a very good idea for the United States to have a certain degree of humility in the world when we -- when we have brought the deaths of millions of people to Iraq in the past few years, millions of deaths in Vietnam before that. And we have 10,000 of these nuclear weapons all around, post all around the world. The appropriate approach --
(CROSSTALK)
DERSHOWITZ: See, the truth is now coming out. Rabbi Lerner is anti-American.
LERNER: The appropriate approach for us is to call for universal nuclear disarmament and for the United States to take the leadership in that way. In other words, you cannot continue to dominate...
DERSHOWITZ: You know, Michael -- Rabbi Lerner --
LERNER: ... and think that you rely on military force as the only way to achieve security.
BROWN: OK.
DERSHOWITZ: Rabbi Lerner, one final -- one last word, your own -- your own --
BROWN: OK. Let's not talk over each other. Go ahead. Professor Dershowitz, go ahead.
DERSHOWITZ: Your own editor agreed with me recently in an e-mail with the following two statements -- if Israel's enemies would lay down their arms, there would be peace. If Israel would lay down their arms, there would be genocide.
There is no moral equivalence. Israel doesn't start wars, it defends itself. Israel is a potential victim of genocide from Iran. You can't make a moral case. Stop blaming America.
LERNER: And I don't want us to lay down its arms.
DERSHOWITZ: Stop trying to blame America for its efforts to bring about peace in the world. Ultimately the reason you don't like Israel, because it's an ally of the United States of America.
BROWN: All right. OK, gentlemen --
DERSHOWITZ: I love America and I support Israel.
BROWN: All right, hold your thoughts. Hold your tongues for just a moment.
LERNER: Yes.
BROWN: We're going to take a quick break. But what I'd like you to do, what I want to try to do when we come back after the break, is see if the two of you can find common ground in an area where you both agree. We'll be back with more right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with tonight's "Great Debate." The premise, the U.S. should get tough with Israel. Harvard Law professor Alan Dershowitz says no. Rabbi Michael Lerner says yes.
Rabbi Lerner, why don't you tell us? Where do you think you and Professor Dershowitz can agree?
LERNER: I think we could agree that one of the things that President Obama could do in the Middle East right now, would be to get both sides, both the Israelis and the Arabs, to understand the other side's legitimacy and what the story that both sides have, understanding that both sides have suffered and that both sides have felt depressed and both sides feel scared of the other, and that both sides need to overcome that sense that they are the only righteous victim and that the other is always the evil other.
BROWN: Professor Dershowitz?
DERSHOWITZ: I agree. I agree. I agree.
BROWN: I love hearing that.
DERSHOWITZ: Bill Clinton -- Bill Clinton didn't have to be tough on Israel to bring them to the bargaining table and get Israel to give up the entire occupation of the West Bank and Gaza, a divided Jerusalem, $35 billion reparation package. You don't get peace by being tough on the victims and being soft on the perpetrators. You don't get peace by being tough with America's allies and soft on America's enemies. It sends exactly the wrong message to terrorists.
If their terrorism produces a change of policy and gets the United States to turn against Israel...
LERNER: That sends off the wrong category.
DERSHOWITZ: ... that would be a victory of terrorism and we don't want to see terrorism.
BROWN: OK. Quickly -- quickly, Rabbi Lerner, I'll give you the last word here.
LERNER: Yes, just to say that the way for America and for Israel to get security is through genuine caring and generosity towards others, not being tough and not being soft.
DERSHOWITZ: I agree.
LERNER: But being so genuinely caring.
DERSHOWITZ: So you agree with me? You shouldn't be tough?
LERNER: Absolutely agree.
DERSHOWITZ: You agree? Thank you for conceding my point.
BROWN: Right, gentlemen, thank you for sharing your very passionate views. Professor Dershowitz and Rabbi Lerner, I appreciate your time tonight. Both of you, thank you.
LERNER: Thanks.
DERSHOWITZ: Thank you.
BROWN: And we should tell you Thursday's "Great Debate," also about the Middle East. A lot going on there with the president's trip. The premise, Islam and democracy cannot co-exist. Agree or disagree? Two guests head to head on that Thursday night, right here.
Sure, he is a Democrat, but some say President Obama takes after another recent president, a popular Republican we all remember. Find out why when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our third big question of the night is prompted by Nancy Reagan's return to the White House today. You saw the former first lady earlier at the signing of a bill creating the Ronald Reagan Centennial Commission. Listen to President Obama praising his predecessor.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT-ELECT: President Reagan understood that while there are often strong disagreements between parties and political adversaries, disagreements that can be a source of conflict and bitterness, it is important to keep in mind all that we share.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: He's talking, of course, about President Reagan, but the tone very pure Obama, which leads to our third big question -- is President Obama more like Ronald Reagan than Bill Clinton?
And here to talk about that, we've got Kellyanne Conway, president of The Polling Company which does work for among others, the Republican National Committee, CNN's senior analyst, Jeffrey Toobin, Republican strategist and CNN contributor Ed Rollins, and NPR contributor John Ridley with us.
So let me just go around the table on this one, guys. Barack Obama more Bill Clinton, more Ronald Reagan? Kellyanne?
KELLYANNE CONWAY, PRES., "THE POLLING COMPANY": Well, he made famous comments during the primary that he thought Ronald Reagan was more of a transformational president than was Bill Clinton. I don't think that was a cheap shot towards Hillary Clinton in a heated battle or primary. I think he meant it.
I think that Barack Obama is a student of history who recognized that a combination of optimism but ideological mooring and certainly the ability to communicate this mooring did make Ronald Reagan a transformational figure including billions of Reagan Democrats, places like Macomb County, Michigan really getting people who had never voted Republican to do so because of Reagan.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think when you talk about Ronald Reagan, you think about two things. You think about the buildup to the end of the Soviet Union and you think about prosperity in the 1980s. Those were results. The country changed and that's why Reagan is regarded so positively.
We don't know if Barack Obama's going to succeed domestically or foreign, so I am happy to punt on this question for longer than -- for longer than 125 days of the presidency.
BROWN: Ed Rollins, you're the Reagan expert. You probably know.
ED ROLLINS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Both came in at very difficult times. Ronald Reagan came in when there were five presidencies that have failed, Kennedy's assassination, Johnson, being driven from office, Nixon and Ford and Carter being defeated. So, the country didn't think the presidency could work. He made the country -- he made the presidency work again. He made people feel good about themselves again.
This president comes in at a time that certainly for the last three or four years, people have been ready to turn the page. He's got big, big challenges ahead of him and I wish him all the luck in the world. If he has the same kind of successes that Reagan had, he'll be a historic president. If not, obviously, he may be targeted.
BROWN: John?
JOHN RIDLEY, NPR CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. Policy issues aside, we're just talking about the iconography of a president. You know, Obama famously said when he was running for president, you don't start with the playbook of a black man named Barack Obama. But you turn that page, he's got everything else.
He's got the looks. He looks good in a suit. He's funny, he's forceful. He's got a great-looking family. He's presidential.
So in that respect, I think what Reagan brought, as Ed was saying, after almost 20 years of baggage, he made us feel good again.
I think right now after eight years that didn't work out very well, Obama makes us feel good. Right now, I agree it's hard to talk about the whole presidency, but right now we feel good about what's going on.
BROWN: Does he -- go ahead.
TOOBIN: But also the degree to which he just dominates the political scene, who else is an important political figure?
I mean, we keep talking about the Republican problems, you know, with Cheney, with Limbaugh, with Newt Gingrich being the biggest public spokesman. What other Democrat? There are no other Democrat. He completely dominates politics now in a way that I think Reagan did as well.
BROWN: But sort of the irony is Obama may be unraveling whatever's left of Reagan's legacy in terms of his policy.
CONWAY: And I think that shouldn't go unstated here is that they are very different men ideologically. Ronald Reagan ran for office, he says, because he was tired of being taxed in California.
Originally, he ran for office as governor. He wanted to shrink the size of government and its reach, and President Obama would like the government to be more involved in areas like health care, for example, Campbell.
But I think another really compelling thing about both of these men, Obama and Reagan, is as candidates and then as presidents, I suppose, their ability to gravitate towards youth and have the youth magnetized about this dirty word called politics is pretty unique, very compelling even more so than Bill Clinton.
TOOBIN: Really? I don't remember that about the Reagan presidency.
CONWAY: Sure.
TOOBIN: A lot of people like Ronald Reagan. CONWAY: Absolutely. I think you saw that five years ago when he died. He died five years ago. People weren't old enough to vote for him.
ROLLINS: 1984, every Republican that's of age today became a Republican because of him.
CONWAY: Because of him.
RIDLEY: I was 16 at the time. That was the first vote that I cast. And it was really -- I didn't understand politics. But I understood that the '70s didn't really work.
I grew up in the Midwest and Ronald Reagan represented an icon and a change. When I learned a little bit more politics, things changed a little bit.
BROWN: But, so, is it really style over substance that we're talking about here. They're just both incredibly charismatic.
ROLLINS: Style -- style is very important, though. Because the presidency today has become the ultimate personality, as Jeff started to say. Every day this person is in your face, good or bad. And if you like him, you feel good about him. You listen to him.
By the end of the Bush presidency, people couldn't stand to see him come on the TV. And I -- including some of us that are die-hard Republicans. I think there's goodwill towards this president. I think his policies, we'll have to see whether they work or not.
BROWN: Guys, we got to end it there. Many, many thanks to the panel. Appreciate it.
When we come back, tonight's breakout story. We're going to have the very latest on Flight 447. There are new developments tonight. We've got a live report from Rio coming up in just three minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Breaking news now, the crash of Air France Flight 447. We're putting it -- putting it in our "Breakout" segment because a lot of new details are coming in from the investigation.
CNN's John Zarrella is joining us by phone from Rio de Janeiro. And, John, give us the very latest.
JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, Campbell, what we heard late this afternoon from Brazil's defense minister, was that, in fact, what they do now believe to be the wreckage or pieces, at least, of Air France Flight 447 was found about 700 miles off the Brazilian coast.
Now it was first found early this morning just after daybreak by Brazilian air force planes flying in the search area. What they found was a three-mile path of debris and in that debris they reported finding a seat, a life vest, what appeared to be an oil drum, and oil slick on the water. But what they did not find, tragically so far, are survivors.
Now, they're going to continue to comb that area throughout the night. Now, if and when they do find the main body of the airplane, Brazil will handle, at least take the lead, in bringing up and salvaging, if they can, whatever they can. And the French, of course, the French government, and Air France would handle the investigation into what went wrong -- Campbell.
BROWN: And, John, as we understand, the families of the passengers are being told tonight, there's probably no chance the bodies of their loved ones will ever be found, is that right?
ZARRELLA: That's exactly right, Campbell. Again, they've searched thousands of square kilometers, hundreds and hundreds of square miles. So far all they've found was this little bit of debris. And, again, as I mentioned, they're going to continue to search throughout the night, and by tomorrow, in the late afternoon, we're told they will have searched an entire area of thousands of square miles.
And, again, so far, no signs of any bodies. No signs of any survivors. And that water depth there is very, very deep. Some 6,000 to 9,000 feet deep where the plane is believed to have gone down. So at this point it's beginning to look very, very unlikely that they will find much more of the wreckage, at least not on the surface -- Campbell.
BROWN: John Zarrella for us tonight with the very latest. John, thanks very much.
And there will be much more on the story tonight on "AC 360," that's at 10:00 Eastern Time.
But "LARRY KING LIVE" is just minutes away. And, Larry, we want a preview from you. I know you've got the latest on the queen of reality TV, Susan Boyle tonight.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Yes. The queen in second place yet.
Hey, Campbell, it's really good having you back, by the way.
BROWN: Thank you, Larry. It's good to be back.
KING: You're a comfort zone.
BROWN: OK.
KING: I think so.
What is reality TV doing to those people on the shows? The focus on Susan Boyle may have caused her to have a breakdown.
"Britain's Got Talent" judge, Amanda Holden, is with us to talk about it tonight. Also, Dr. Drew and Andrew Firestone are going to examine effects of celebrity on people like Jon and Kate, their eight children, and others who become more famous than they might have bargained for. It's next on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few minutes.
Talk about trying to juggle work and home life, President Obama opens up about looking for normality in a role that's anything but normal. That's in tonight's "Political Daily Briefing."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Time for "the "PDB," our "Political Daily Briefing." And Deb Feyerick is back with me right now.
And, Deb, President Obama now starting a very important trip, but before he left, he talked very openly about life within the bubble.
DEBORAH FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, and it's definitely a bubble. You know, Campbell, one of the things President Obama was looking forward to when he moved into the White House was getting back to normal with his family. But when you're president, normal is not so easy, as he told NBC's Brian Williams.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, FROM NBC "THE TODAY SHOW")
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: There's a certain rhythm of life...
BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST: Sure.
OBAMA: ... of, OK, you know, it's Saturday morning, I'm going to go walk my dog, run some errands. I kind of, you know, do some things that will make my wife happy.
WILLIAMS: Right.
OBAMA: I'm going to take my kids to the museum.
WILLIAMS: I get that.
OBAMA: And then I'm going to, on the spur of the moment, take them to have some ice cream because they had a good game.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
OBAMA: Those kinds of rhythms are thrown off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: Spur of the moment kind of hard when you have so many people watching, kind of like the president and first lady's date night this past weekend and not even the first dog is in. Take a look at this video we just got in.
When the president left the White House this evening, the press corps decided to grill Bo and get his thoughts on the master's upcoming speech in Cairo. Well, the first dog bit at the chance at a reporter's microphone. BROWN: Destroying it, little Bo.
OK. Another story that I was a little confused by. Heidi Montag, Spencer Pratt and Patti Blagojevich, what could these three possibly have in common?
FEYERICK: Probably very little. But, you know, truth is always so much stranger than fiction, especially when you're talking about reality TV. All three star in a new show called, "I'm a Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here."
In last night's premier, newlyweds Spencer and Heidi who starred in "The Hill" and who weren't exactly well liked, prayed with Mrs. "B," the wife of disgraced Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich. Patti Blagojevich began to cry and said the prayer hit home.
Strange.
BROWN: Absolutely.
And then finally, there's a new king of late night TV, Conan O'Brien's debut show and he's using the news to punch it up a little bit.
FEYERICK: Oh, absolutely. And there's so much in the news right now. You know, Conan moved from New York to Los Angeles for the job. He slipped into Leno's chair on "The Tonight Show" poking fun at his career move on late night TV.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW": I have to admit I think I have timed this moment perfectly. Think about it, I'm on a last- placed network. I've moved to a state that's bankrupt and "Tonight Show" is sponsored by General Motors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FEYERICK: So, it can only get better, right?
And, Campbell, speaking of new production, yesterday you promised us your own venture, a couple of pictures.
BROWN: That's right, baby pics. And I got to tell you, Deb, one of the best things that people told me when I was pregnant is when you have a second child, one of the most wonderful things is watching your older child become a sibling and welcome the new one into the fold. And that's exactly what happened in our family. Take a look.
This was the arrival of the new one at home. And there's my older son, Eli, sharing the love, looking like mom, what on earth have you done to me? You have ruined my life. But after group therapy and many ice cream cones, he did finally come around and he likes his little brother now. He's been much sweeter than he was in those first few days. Here's the happy picture, anyway.
FEYERICK: He probably realized you couldn't send him back.
BROWN: I know. So, that's it. My grandmother will be happy now. She was yelling at me because I didn't show pictures last night.
FEYERICK: Beautiful kids. Absolutely gorgeous.
BROWN: Deb, thank you for being with us tonight.
Thank you for watching. That does it for us. I will see you right back here tomorrow night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
