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Campbell Brown
Interview With Former U.S. Secretary of State James Baker; Can Obama Win Muslim Hearts and Minds?
Aired June 03, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Can Obama win Muslim hearts and minds while embracing the region's dictators?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I thought it was very important to come to the place where Islam began and to seek His Majesty's counsel.
BROWN: The president in Saudi Arabia tonight, where democracy is nowhere to be found, but the people on the streets are waiting for a message of hope.
Another big question: Is affirmative action racism? With an African-American president and a Latina nominee to the Supreme Court, hear why some people say it's time to move on.
And does Bill Clinton still count? He was down and out a year ago. How he is adjusting to life out of the big spotlight.
Plus, the picture of the night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thank you.
BROWN: No, Mr. President, thank you. We have got the story behind the bling tonight in our "Mash-Up."
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NARRATOR: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody.
Three big questions tonight, plus a conversation with James Baker, he was part of Ronald Reagan's inner circle. And on a day Reagan is honored, he tells me how thinks President Obama and President Reagan are alike.
But we're going to start tonight, as we do every night, with the "Mash-Up," our look at stories making impact right now and our must- see moments of the past 24 hours.
Tonight, across the country and frankly around the globe, all eyes right now on President Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama right now in the heart of the Muslim world, trying to ease tensions and in some cases outright hatred of the United States.
LARA LOGAN, JOURNALIST: Everywhere you go in this city, it's what everybody is talking about.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're walking around the bazaar, you say the word Obama and speech and everybody starts pointing their thumb up and saying, Obama, yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They love him. That's really the first impression that you get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Tomorrow, the president delivers his much-anticipated speech to the Muslim world in Egypt.
Today, though, he began this hearts and minds tour in Saudi Arabia, saying, it was -- quote -- "important to come to the place where Islam began." In a day of public pomp, so many arresting images, but here's the moment everyone could end up talking about.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: That's something there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Check out the bling from the king, quite the gift there, Mr. President. Now, while the Saudis were gracious hosts to Obama, they are keeping reporters there on a very tight leash right now.
Journalists covering Obama were told to stay in their hotel whenever they're not out with the president.
Stephen Colbert thinks the Saudis are being a little too cautious.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE COLBERT REPORT")
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE COLBERT REPORT": Come on, Saudi Arabia. We don't need you to tell us to report only on Obama. We're fully prepared to spend three days deciding whether or not the president bowed to your king, while ignoring your human rights record until the oil runs out.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: For the record, President Obama may have bowed to King Abdullah back in April. Not today, though.
With the Middle East awash in Obama mania, al Qaeda trying very hard to be heard right now. For the second day in a row, they released a tape barking the president. Today's missive was from Osama bin Laden himself. He accused the president of forcing a million Muslims from their homes in Pakistan by encouraging the government there to crack down on militants. And that earned bin Laden a verbal lashing from the administration's envoy to Pakistan, Richard Holbrooke.
This tape now from Pakistani network Geo TV. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD HOLBROOKE, SPECIAL REPRESENTATIVE FOR AFGHANISTAN AND PAKISTAN: The idea that anyone is responsible for the refugee crisis other than al Qaeda and the Taliban and the other people who have caused such tragedy in western Pakistan is ludicrous. This entire problem begins was al Qaeda and its associates, and everybody in the world knows that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The president himself did not address the latest al Qaeda production.
In the battle over Judge Sonia Sotomayor, two conservatives who rarely back down today backed down. Just last week, Rush Limbaugh was branding the judge a reverse racist, but today he reversed course, saying he could end up backing Sotomayor after all. Limbaugh told his radio listeners it will come down to her position on one issue, abortion.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW")
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: I can see a possibility of supporting this nomination, if I could be convinced that she does have a sensibility toward life in a legal sense, of course, in a real sense.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, Limbaugh wasn't the day's only about-face. Newt Gingrich backed off his statement calling Sotomayor a racist. And he now says he was perhaps too strong and direct.
The judge was asked about it today as she continued her meet-and- greets on Capitol Hill. But her handlers were not about to let her answer. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Newt Gingrich has retracted his statement in a sense, calling the judge a racist.
(CROSSTALK) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Don't answer any questions.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, guys.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you. No questions today. Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Yes, you heard it there. "Don't answer that one," getting some tips from your flack. As one Democratic senator said, we are not going to let loose lips sink this ship.
And that's the "Mash-Up."
And we go now to tonight's first big question. Can President Obama win Muslim hearts and minds? A little over three hours from now, he heads from Saudi Arabia to Egypt, trying to do just that.
And joining me right now, Republican strategist and CNN political contributor Mary Matalin, journalist Mona Eltahawy.
Am I saying that right, Mona? Apologies.
NPR contributor John Ridley, and Lily Mazahery, founder of the Legal Rights Institute, joining us from Washington as well.
Welcome to everybody.
Mona, let me just start with you.
What does this mean, winning the hearts and minds? What is he really trying to do on this trip? What is he trying to accomplish?
MONA ELTAHAWY, JOURNALIST & COMMENTATOR: In a nutshell or to quote your show as it used to be called, NO BIAS, NO BULL, Campbell, I would think that he's trying to reverse everything that George Bush had seemed to address to the Muslim world, i.e., we're at war with Islam and the Muslim world.
I think this would be the nutshell, that we're not at war with Islam and that we respect Muslims.
BROWN: But how do you do that?
And, Mary, I know you feel strongly about this. Here's the challenge. Saudi Arabia, one of the most oppressive regimes, he's there meeting with King Abdullah, but at the same time trying to deliver a message to the people on the street and balance those two.
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Right.
Well, the antipathy to the United States and many Western democracies predates President Bush. It predates President Clinton. It predates President Reagan. It goes way back to, as UBL told us, 80 years.
It was -- and often inflamed and fanned by those -- their leaders to distract from their failures, their own failed states. So, there's a long history of this. If he can -- he cannot and he will not be able to and nor should he set an expectation that he can win hearts and minds in one trip. But it's -- you have to keep working it.
BROWN: Lily, what do you make of all this?
LILY MAZAHERY, LEGAL RIGHTS INSTITUTE: Well, I hope that this is -- the president is going to use this opportunity to really address the various violations of human rights and egregious conduct by these totalitarian rulers and dictators in the Middle East.
He is in a very unique position, perhaps a position that no U.S. president has been, at least in my lifetime, as I remember it, with respect to the governments of Iran, Egypt, Saudi Arabia. And, instead of bowing to the king of Saudi Arabia, which has yet to take responsibility or even make any kind of recognition of its ties to the hijackers of September 11 and the various terrorist activities that have been -- come about after that, he should take this opportunity to really criticize those leaders for their violations of human rights, for their support of terrorism, for funding of al Qaeda, or related -- for Hezbollah, for example, instead of inviting Iranian officials to hot dogs and apple pie on Fourth of July.
BROWN: Do you think that's going to happen, John?
JOHN RIDLEY, COMMENTATOR, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO: No, I can guarantee that's not going to happy.
Ben Rhodes, his speechwriter, gave a little preview today. And actually the human rights issue are labeled under broader sets of issues that's going to be way down in his speech.
And I think also Secretary of State Clinton, when she was talking about China the other day, said we can't let economic recovery get in the way -- or human rights get in the way of economic recovery, I think these are very important issues. But also if you look at and if you're going to believe some numbers, the Brookings Institute did a poll, and even among Arabs in terms of human rights not the most important issues on the top of their list.
I happen to think it's very important, but I don't think it's going to part of the agenda in this upcoming trip.
BROWN: So, given that, what is he really going to accomplish?
ELTAHAWY: I think it's really important to address what Mary was saying and to understand that many people in the Muslim world believe that those very same dictators who do use anti-Americanism to turn their people outwards, rather than look at violations inwards, that President Obama remembers that people associate the United States with supporting those dictators, which is why a lot of people think, myself included, although I'm a proud Egyptian, think that Egypt perhaps wasn't the wisest choice to have this speech. I think, if President Obama can -- can somehow manage to, yes, handle the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, which unfortunately does dominates a lot of the discussions, so make it seem like there will be some kind of movement on this, but also talk about civilian deaths in Pakistan and Afghanistan. This is a huge -- this is something that really gets the Muslim world going, because when they see civilians dying, when they see what the drones do and when they see what this war against the Taliban is doing, this really upsets people.
And that really does touch hearts and minds. And just as importantly, too, to consider that the Muslim world is not just outside. But there are Muslims here in the U.S. as well.
BROWN: Right.
ELTAHAWY: I am a Muslim who lives here.
So, if President Obama can go to the Muslim world and as he has said many times say we have many Muslim Americans who proudly contribute to the U.S., and make that connection with his own connection of having lived in Indonesia, it's very difficult to do all at one goal. But I wish him the best.
BROWN: Right.
MATALIN: There's two things to remember when you're working in this region.
One is that close to 30 percent of the population is under 30. So, to talk about reform and to talk about a different future is something he can do without making those human rights arguments front and center and being violative of diplomacy.
The second thing to remember is, what they say in private meetings is very different from what gets said publicly. It's ever been thus. The president said he would like to stop that Kabuki dance, but that's just the way it is. It's a respect for that culture, and there are many things to be respectful of, if you're going make any progress.
And diplomacy has an impact. And you have to be careful not to offend while you're trying to show the way to this -- particularly this under-30 demographic.
BROWN: We're going to be watching this closely, continue watching this, obviously, tomorrow. CNN, we will let you know, will cover the president's speech to the Muslim world live. That's starting tomorrow at 6:00 a.m. Eastern time on "AMERICAN MORNING."
Thanks to the panel. You guys are sticking around, I know.
Tonight's newsmaker, former Secretary of State James Baker. He is taking issue with the way some Republicans are blasting President Obama for reaching out to the Muslim world.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAMES BAKER, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Of course, we haven't seen yet what he's going to say, but I would be surprised if it is an apology.
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BROWN: Plus, tonight's "Great Debate": Is affirmative action racist? We're going to hear two very different points of view when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back.
Tonight's newsmaker, James Baker, served as secretary of state, treasury secretary, and was White House chief of staff for Ronald Reagan. Today, in the Capitol Rotunda, he sat next to Nancy Reagan for the unveiling of a statue honoring the late president. He's here not only to look back, but to consider some striking similarities between Presidents Reagan and Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: President Obama on this trip right now to reach out to the Muslim world, and yet some Republicans are calling this an apology tour. You're a Republican. What do you think?
BAKER: Well, I don't think I would characterize it that way.
Of course, we haven't seen yet what he's going to say, but I would be surprised if it is an apology. What I think he's going to say is that the United States has a great interest in stability in the Middle East, and in resolving the long-simmering Arab-Israeli dispute, and in -- in seeing our -- our moderate Arab allies work with us to foreclose the nuclear ambitions of Iran.
BROWN: Well, to that point, you were so instrumental in building the coalition for the Gulf War. And, as you say, that's a key goal, helping to increase pressure on Iran during this trip to -- to get many of these countries to help us fight terrorism.
But right now we have no capital with these countries or these people. How do we get there?
BAKER: Well, you get there by doing what the president is doing. Show these people that we value the relationship, that it's existed for many years, between their countries and our country, pay them attention, which he is certainly doing, meet with them, listen to their concerns, and explain to them the importance of U.S. policy goals.
That's the way you get there. And I think it's very healthy that he's doing this.
BROWN: Former Vice President Dick Cheney has been very critical of how the president has been handling the war on terror, specifically. And you have certainly worked with Dick Cheney. You know him well.
Do you think he's been out of line with his criticism?
BAKER: I don't think -- look, I don't think a former vice president of the United States is out of line when he feels strongly about something and wants to speak out about it.
I think the more open debate we have in this country, the stronger a country we will have. So, no, I wouldn't -- I wouldn't say that. On -- now, having said that, Dick and I are very close friends, and he and I have never totally agreed on everything.
And there are some things in this area that we don't agree on. But I wouldn't characterize it as being out of line.
BROWN: Let me switch gears with you here. Nancy Reagan on Capitol Hill today, you were there with her. It was an incredibly moving picture.
A lot of Reagan's policies, though, have been undone, are being undone currently. What do you think will be former President Reagan's lasting legacy?
BAKER: I think the lasting legacy is what you saw up there in the Rotunda of the Capitol this morning and in Statuary Hall. What Ronald Reagan did for this country is really beyond dispute.
Nobody can dispute the fact that, when he came into office, we were in really bad shape, both economically and from a strong defense posture. With his focus on lowering marginal tax rates, turning our economy around and restrengthening our defenses, he was -- he -- he promoted the collapse of communism, the end of the Cold War, the peaceful end, by the way, of the Cold War, and -- and economic recovery.
And, for 18 or 20 years after Ronald Reagan left office, we had only the mildest of recessions. We had, I think, something like 22 -- let's see -- 18 to 20 years of uninterrupted non-inflationary growth. Now, you can't argue with that. It was there, and it's still there.
We now have some serious problems. And we have to deal with them. And, having said what I said about the foreign policy of the Obama administration, with which I find myself in -- in agreement, not total agreement -- there are some areas where I would differ. But I like the realism and pragmatism that I see in this foreign policy.
I do not feel the same way about the domestic policy of this administration. I have some serious problems with that.
BROWN: But you have heard a lot of people make comparisons between Presidents Obama and Reagan over the last 24 hours.
BAKER: Yes.
BROWN: Do you -- do you see similarities?
BAKER: Well, I see some similarities.
They are both -- they are both wonderful communicators. Nobody could -- nobody can quarrel with Ronald Reagan's oratorical skills. And we have certainly learned that President Obama is an excellent orator and a communicator with the American people. He still enjoys -- he's been in office now for six months dealing with some very tough problems, and he still enjoys relatively high approval ratings.
So, they have those things in common. They also have in common, Campbell, that they both came into office when the country had faced some extraordinarily serious problems. We faced -- people forget this, but, in 1981, January of 1981, when we walked into that White House, we were looking at inflation of about 18 percent, interest rates of 21 percent, a general malaise in the country.
And -- and Ronald Reagan was the -- was such a great president, that we overcame that. Now, Obama faces some of the same types of problems. Ronald Reagan also faced a deterioration in our military capacity. America was not perceived -- we were not feared by our adversaries and respected by our allies, the way we were at the end of its presidency.
President Obama, on the other hand, comes in. He faces two active wars that he has to deal with. So, there are a lot of similarities from that standpoint. The two presidents are taking different approaches to these problems on a domestic -- from a domestic standpoint, but they are taking similar approaches, in my view, from a foreign policy standpoint.
BROWN: James Baker, Mr. Secretary, so appreciate your time tonight. Good to see you. Thanks for joining us.
BAKER: Thank you. Thank you, Campbell.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Nuclear mistake -- some of the nation's biggest secrets published online today. Hear why the energy secretary is calling it a little embarrassing. You think?
Plus, does Bill Clinton still count? Tonight, a very personal look at how he's adjusting to life outside the spotlight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back.
Now we want to check of some of the other stories making news right now.
And here with tonight's briefing, Randi Kaye -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, Campbell, as always.
BROWN: You, too. KAYE: Gripping testimony today at a Capitol Hill hearing on the fate of U.S. District Judge Sam Kent of Texas. Lawmakers are considering impeachment over accusations of sexual harassment in the courthouse.
Today, they heard from one of his accusers. A warning: This is graphic, rated R for sex and O for outrageous.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CATHY MCBROOM, FEDERAL CASE MANAGER: He pulled up my blouse. He got his hand underneath my bra and pulled everything up at once, so that my breasts were exposed.
I was begging him to stop, telling him: "Please don't do this to me. Please don't. I really love my job. I don't want to lose my job. Please don't do this."
He wouldn't listen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Judge Kent's already headed to prison for lying to investigators about harassment claims. If impeached, he will lose his paycheck and his pension.
As of tonight, New Hampshire is the sixth U.S. state where same- sex marriage is now legal. Governor John Lynch signed the law just hours ago.
But the celebrating started this earlier afternoon, when the final tally in the legislature was announced. Watch this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: New Hampshire joins four other New England states, as well as Iowa.
The Obama administration says no secrets about nuclear weapons were exposed when detailed information about civilian nuclear sites somehow ended up on the Internet. The 226-page list contains maps of uranium storage sites and nuclear research plants and was marked highly confidential. No word how it ended up on the Government Printing Office's Web site, but Energy Secretary Steven Chu calls it -- quote -- "a little embarrassing."
And a new sign today that U.S. relations with Cuba are thawing. The Organization of American States lifted its 47-year suspension of Cuba. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who left for Egypt before today's unanimous vote, says she is -- quote -- "pleased" with the outcome. There's no word yet from Havana on whether Cuba wants to rejoin the multinational group. And, finally, ladies rule the annual "Forbes" list of the world's most powerful celebrities. Angelina Jolie, number one, yes, she bumped Oprah to number two, even though Oprah made more money. There's Madonna, number three. She's making a comeback. Number four, Beyonce Knowles.
A man does not make the list until number five. And that would be Tiger Woods.
BROWN: Wow. Wow.
KAYE: Ladies rules the house there.
BROWN: Interesting. It's about time.
All right, Randi Kaye for us tonight -- Randi, thanks.
Tonight's "Great Debate": Is affirmative action racist? We are going to talk to two people with very different points of view on this.
Plus, China clamping down on the 20th anniversary of Tiananmen Square. Our own reporter had to battle secret agents and umbrellas to get the story. We will explain. That is tonight's breakout.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I'm John Vause near Tiananmen Square.
This is about as close as we can get to the square because these plainclothes officers are using their umbrellas to try and stop our view, so that we cannot actually do any videotaping here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody
Every night at this time, the "Great Debate." And tonight we take on race and equal opportunity in America. We have elected a black president. A Latina is nominated for the Supreme Court. And that has a lot of people wondering whether we even need affirmative action anymore.
Here's a Quinnipiac University poll out today -- 55 percent say abolish it -- 36 percent said say no.
So, tonight's premise: African-American is racist.
And here to debate, Cathy Areu, a contributor editor "The Washington Post" magazine. She says she landed her first job thanks to affirmative action. And with us from Los Angeles, Joe R. Hicks. He is vice president of the civil rights groups Community Advocates, Inc. He once supported affirmative action. Now he fights against it. And we want to know what you think. Cast your vote by calling the number on the bottom of the screen. First, we're going to have an opening statement from reach, 30 seconds, on the clock.
Mr. Hicks, you believe affirmative action is racist. Make the case.
JOE R. HICKS, VICE PRESIDENT, COMMUNITY ADVOCATES, INC.: Well, I think racist is kind of a harsh term here. We often associate the word racism and racist with really insidious kind of things, lynchings, those sort of things.
What I -- what I -- my premise is that we live in a world that I argue is a post-racial world, a world in which things like racial preferences, which is really what we're talking here, as opposed to affirmative action, are simply unneeded.
The whole idea that they were going to make up for bad -- for past issues, discrimination against women, discrimination -- discrimination against minorities, really doesn't make a lot of sense. And it's unneeded in today's world.
BROWN: All right, Cathy, go ahead.
CATHY AREU, "THE WASHINGTON POST MAGAZINE": How is it unneeded, when 95 percent to 97 percent of corporate jobs are held by one group, when the majority of the Supreme Court is one group, when you have -- you have such a discrepancy in employment, in college admissions, when you have women making 74 cents to every dollar that a man makes, this is today, this is not our past -- when a Latina is making 58 cents to every white man's dollar, when an African-American woman is making 63 cents to every white man's dollar, how is affirmative action not needed? Affirmative action opens the doors to different groups so that we can knock down these barriers.
BROWN: Joe, let me let you respond to that?
HICKS: Well, you know, it's quite interesting that, you know, she uses all these terms about differential pay. Those are very controversial figures that she's talking about here. And the real question is, there are differential -- differences in pay. The question is why does that exist?
For Cathy to describe that the racism in modern America I think simply doesn't account for, oh, a thing like we got a black president. A man, by the way, who's voted into office, not affirmative action vote.
People view this man, white voters view this man as the right person for the job. He got that because white voters where you could talk about white people now, voted him into office because they thought he was the best leader, had the best leadership qualities and would lead this country where they'd like to see it go.
So this notion that you can use racial preferences to somehow right the world and then go against in fact with the 1964 Civil Rights Act said, that you could not in fact use race in these kind of determinations, I think takes us back to another world.
We don't live in a world where women or men of any color face that kind of discrimination that's once visited -- was once visited upon us in this country.
BROWN: Right.
HICKS: It just doesn't exist.
BROWN: Let me -- let me ask Cathy to respond to that point. Cathy, I mean, we have elected a black president.
AREU: Right.
BROWN: And when affirmative action was first implemented, it was intended to be temporary. At what point, I mean, what has to happen before you see a time when there isn't a need for it?
AREU: What has to happen is the equal pay. These things do exist. These aren't controversial figures, these are real figures.
I mean, I -- as you mentioned earlier, I did receive my first job through affirmative action. I had a masters degree in English education and the job was a public school English teacher. The person I was up against was a non-Hispanic with a bachelor's degree. And that person was actually supposed to get the job, but because they had to fill the quota with a Hispanic, I was given the job but I would say the most qualified person received that job.
That person was friends with someone else, which is an affirmative action of the good old days when a friend knows a friend and gives them a job. I didn't have friends in that school system. I simply had affirmative action forcing them to do the right thing. They had to hire a more qualified person.
BROWN: Joe, let me ask you to address the point that Cathy was making a moment ago because she's right. There are numbers. We have our own numbers from the Labor Department that do show these pretty extraordinary pay discrepancies. Why don't you believe that to be a real issue?
HICKS: If you are going to or anyone is going to tell me that employer in contemporary America is going to hire someone of one color, pay them a one level pay and then bring somebody else with a different color and pay them for the exact same job, exact kind of qualification for the exact same job and pay them at a different level, that's not going on in America. People are paid different based on their experiences, their background, their education. They're all a number of things that impact on the different kind of levels of pay that's happening in America today.
My question isn't that there isn't some disparity. The question is, why is it taking place?
Cathy seemed to say it's because we got a bunch of bigots out there hiring people. That isn't the kind of America we live in today. She's, in fact, basically arguing from the kind of America that existed in 1952 that doesn't exist in 2009. That's the problem here. It's squaring our vision of the world what really exists and then figure it how do you elevate others in pay based on the real kind of things going on.
BROWN: All right. Cathy, quickly, let me give you a chance to respond.
AREU: My experience didn't happen in the '50s. I wasn't looking for my job in the '50s. It happened recently. And unfortunately, I know firsthand. And unfortunately when we work besides others, we actually don't know what they're actually getting paid.
But there are many cases when women find out what a colleague is getting paid. They do find out there is a discrepancy and this isn't the '50s. This is happening right now. And it's not just women. We're talking minorities, all people of color, disabled people, veterans.
Affirmative action helps so many people. It's not just a certain group.
BROWN: All right. OK. I know you two have completely different points of view on this. But every night, we do try to find common ground in this debate. So think about it. When we come back after the break, I want to hear where it is that you can actually agree.
We'll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back to our "Great Debate." Tonight's premise, affirmative action is racist.
Civil rights activist Joe Hicks say yes. Cathy Areu from the "Washington Post" magazine says no. What we're going to do right now is try to find some common ground between the two of you.
And, Cathy, was there anything Joe said that resonated with you?
AREU: Well, I don't think everyone's a bigot, so I would have to say that I don't believe that. So I have to agree with him that not everyone in the world right now is a bigot.
And I do believe that most qualified people should get the job. I don't believe in underqualified people getting jobs and filling quotas, which I don't think is happening with affirmative action. But I guess that's something we could agree on that the right person for the right job every time?
BROWN: Joe, what about Cathy's arguments? Anything persuasive to you at all?
HICKS: Well, yes, I like to expand it a bit. I think, Cathy and I, while we certainly have disagreements over the kinds of things that we need to do to make the nation the kind of nation that we like to see it be, but I think our agreement would be on, I think we would probably agree that our aim, the kind of America that we both want to see exist is the same.
Bob Marley, who I'm a big reggae fan once said there'll be conflict until the color of a man or woman's skin is of no more significance than the color of their eyes. Now that's the kind of world that I'm fighting for, the same kind of vision that Dr. King had, that the content of your character is more important than the color of your skin...
BROWN: Right.
HICKS: ... which is why, in fact, I argue against the concept of racial preferences.
BROWN: All right. To Joe and Cathy -- Cathy Areu, Joe Hicks, an excellent debate. Thank you both for your time tonight.
AREU: Thank you.
BROWN: Really appreciate it.
AREU: Thank you. Thank you for having us.
BROWN: So let's see how you voted in tonight's "Great Debate." Pretty evenly split actually. Forty-nine percent agree affirmative action is racist. Fifty-one percent disagree.
Not a scientific poll we should say, just a snapshot from our viewers who called in tonight. Thanks very much to everybody who called.
We'll have a new "Great Debate" every night on the show. Tomorrow's premise, Islam promotes terrorism. Agree or disagree? We're going to hear arguments from both sides. That is tomorrow night.
Tonight's next big question, does Bill Clinton still count? Hear how the former first president is handling life out of the spotlight while his wife takes center stage. Plus, some tough love for Conan O'Brien from the commander-in-chief.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I just want him to know that there's not going to be any bailout coming out from Washington if he screws it up.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Time now for our third big question of the night. Does Bill Clinton still count?
You wouldn't have thought so a year ago when Barack Obama clinched the Democratic nomination crushing the Clinton's hopes of getting back into the White House. Well, what a difference a year makes.
And here to talk about the former president's second act, Peter Baker, White House correspondent for the "New York Times" and he wrote this week's cover story about Clinton in the "Times" Sunday magazine. The panel is also back with me here, Mary Matalin, along with writer P.J. O'Rourke. His latest book is "Driving Like Crazy." He's also a contributor to the conservative political magazine "The Weekly Standard." And also back with us, John Ridley.
So, Peter, you spent a lot of time with Bill Clinton for this piece, I know. How is he dealing with not being the top dog in the Democratic Party anymore?
PETER BAKER, "NEW YORK TIMES": Well, it's a little bit of an adjustment, obviously. You know, this is an unusual situation.
In the last 140 years, there have only been two Democratic presidents who lived long enough to see another Democrat in the White House. So he's trying to adjust but he's got a lot of things on his plate.
He's got his foundation. He's still traveling the world. He's going to South America and Europe and Asia all the time. And he's got a certain vested interest in this administration being successful obviously. He has a certain contact in the cabinet that he keeps in touch with.
BROWN: Well, yes, clearly. And you also say that despite -- I think one Obama aide telling you that he's irrelevant. He also talks to Joe Biden weekly.
BAKER: He does, actually. He talks with Joe Biden much more frequently than he does with President Obama. When I went to see him at his office in Harlem in April, I said, well, how often have you talked to the president since the inauguration? He said, oh, I think only about once.
But Biden he talks to about once a week. They have a relationship obviously that goes back a ways.
And President Clinton says look, I don't want to bother President Obama. He's got a lot of things on his plate. But he keeps in touch. He sends memos to Jim Jones, the national security adviser.
BROWN: Right.
BAKER: He talks to Larry Summers and Carol Browner and people who work for him in his administration from time to time.
BROWN: But has he, Mary, been effectively marginalized by Obama? Can you marginalize Bill Clinton ever?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: No. And, you know, one would hope that at 62, your priorities and your aspirations are different than they were at 42. Peter's piece is beautiful. He watches "24." He loves to shop.
BROWN: Who can resist a man like that?
MATALIN: And he's had the occasion to see him launch the college version of CGI at Tulane, and he's happy. He loves what he's doing and, you know, that's -- he's not marginalized to himself.
BROWN: What do you think?
P.J. O'ROURKE, AUTHOR, "DRIVING LIKE CRAZY: Well, marginalized on the national stage, definitely. And, you know, I'm thinking I thought it was a great piece. I really enjoyed the piece. But I'm thinking, you know, bright pink tie on the cover of "The New York Times" Sunday magazine, this is like slightly a strange way to let the spotlight shine on your wife.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Yes, you're supposed to be playing second fiddle. John?
O'ROURKE: Yes.
JOHN RIDLEY, NPR CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. You know, again, I'm feeling also it was a great piece. But one of the things I found interesting was talking about finding peace. And in the article he talked about how he's found peace with a lot of his enemies, Newt Gingrich, Christopher Ruddy. People were very -- was just evil to him in a sense and doing what he did in the administration, finding that third way.
But with people that were close to him, Bill Richardson, the Kennedys, he hasn't really found that peace with those individuals at these personal slights. It's almost I'm afraid you're my brother, how could you?
Now he is not going to let go of these. I found that very interesting that those personal transgressions --
O'ROURKE: You know, by the time I got done with the piece, I was waiting for the call from Bill myself.
RIDLEY: P.J. always jokes on the Monica Lewinsky jokes, hilarious.
O'ROURKE: I was laughing. I was laughing through my tears.
BROWN: What is about him, Peter, that makes him still want to win people over, certain people, at least as you pointed out the discrepancies in your piece?
BAKER: Yes. He definitely seems to be the kind of person who wants to find that one person in the room who is most resistant to him and focus in like a laser beam, to coin a phrase, until he's convinced that person that he's right with something.
Sometimes it just wears him down. Sometimes, you know, people come around to the idea that maybe he isn't the caricature as some people saw him as.
What Christopher Ruddy will say, he was a journalist in the 1990s who, you know, wrote a lot of very tough things about the Clintons, explored a lot of cover-up theories when it came to things like Vince Foster's death. He says he believes now that Clinton wasn't as liberal as he thought at the time and he's come to really admire what he's doing with the foundation in terms of fighting AIDS around the world, climate change and things like that.
BROWN: Do you agree with that, Mary?
MATALIN: Yes. We tend to attribute political motives to him. Bill Clinton is just one of those naturally gregarious people. He has always found the person in the room whether or not he could persuade him.
He always try to -- me, everybody when I come in the White House and his wife (INAUDIBLE) you know, they would part. Nobody would possibly look at me. She'd shun her, shun her. That's just -- that is part of his personality. We don't get to see political people as they are, really.
O'ROURKE: Let's not forget the "Happy Days" factor, you know. One of the things to remember about the show "Happy Days" was how soon after the '50s, the show, "Happy Days" was on the air about the '50s and we're in that same situation, you know.
All that stuff that seems so big at the time during the Clinton administration, the itsy bitsy little tax increase, you know, little, little bitty things that happened in the economy, some girl named Monica. I don't know what -- and now you look back and say oh, man, that was great.
BROWN: If things were only that simple.
O'ROURKE: Carefree days.
RIDLEY: I would be curious. I would want to know what Peter is thinking there's a new book about Obama that came out that says -- Obama says he was lying. Bill Clinton was lying during the campaign saying -- "Renegade" in the book.
MATALIN: It's his "Renegade," Richard Wolfe's book.
RIDLEY: And knowing or based from Peter's piece what he's saying about Clinton not forgiving some of those kind of slights, how does he feel about Obama and will those two ever reconcile down the road, if there needs to be some reconciliation?
O'ROURKE: When they're both out of work.
RIDLEY: When they're both out of work.
O'ROURKE: They'll be on a foundation. They'll get together on the foundation when they get out of work.
BROWN: Peter, go ahead.
BAKER: Well, yes, there's something to that. Actually, there is something to this idea of a former president's club, right? I mean, look, just the other day, you had Bill Clinton and George W. Bush on a stage right in Toronto, best of friends. And they actually had a very rough relationship. Clinton talks about this in the piece about the early days of Bush's presidency when they didn't really get along. And Clinton says, look, I had a sitdown with him very frankly then we kind of began to sort of bury the hatchet.
I think with Obama, I think they got a friendly relationship but they're not like close. I don't think that you would find them getting together at this point for a beer. That may change overtime.
But Clinton understands that's in his interest to hope for Obama's success. Obviously, again, he has a vested interest in the administration through his wife. And so he's doing his best to be quiet.
You know, I asked one of the White House officials, I said, well, you know, does Clinton's name come up in the senior staff meeting, you know, as kind of, you know, a problem to be dealt with from time to time? He says no, not at all. We sort of expected that might be the case, hasn't been the case. Jimmy Carter would come up a couple times so far, but not Bill Clinton.
BROWN: All right. We got to end it there, guys. Many thanks, Peter Baker, and congratulations again on a great piece.
RIDLEY: Yes, excellent.
BROWN: Mary Matalin with us tonight, P.J. O'Rourke and John Ridley, appreciate it, everybody.
And "LARRY KING LIVE" just minutes away -- Larry, what's on tap tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Campbell, that's a great big segment -- a great piece by Peter, Sunday.
BROWN: Absolutely.
KING: Well, what we got, Campbell, a custody dispute between two countries and two families. A little boy caught in the middle.
David Goldman is going to tell us how one court gave his son back and another took him away. It's incredible.
And Rod Blagojevich is here. The former Illinois governor has got a lot to say about his legal troubles and his jungle-bound wife. Never goes away. Next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: He definitely does not. We will be watching. See you in a few, Larry.
O'ROURKE: And I'm looking for some hair styling. BROWN: Take a look right now. These pictures, this is from tonight's breakout story. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: These plainclothes officials are using these umbrellas here to block our view whenever we try to do any videotaping anywhere near the square.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: No, it's not raining in Tiananmen Square. It is undercover Chinese agents trying to keep you from seeing this video, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our breakout story takes us to Tiananmen Square in Beijing. And believe or not, tonight is the 20th anniversary of the harrowing showdown when tanks moved in to crush students who were asking the government for more freedom. The Chinese would prefer you don't remember. Watch just how difficult it is for CNN's John Vause to merely try and report from the scene today.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN VAUSE, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm John Vause near Tiananmen Square. This is about as close as we can get to the square because these plainclothes officers are using their umbrellas to try and stop our view so that we cannot actually do any videotaping here.
There is an incredible security presence here on the eve of the 20th anniversary. There are so many police and soldiers.
These plainclothes -- are you rolling (ph) -- these plainclothes officials are using these umbrellas here to block our view whenever we try to do any videotaping anywhere near the square. They're also carrying these walkie-talkies right there. That gentleman has a walkie-talkie, so does this other gentleman here.
Authorities are also rounding up dissidents. Many, they say, according to some reports, in fact, have been sent out of town. Others have been detained.
University students, too, have also been warned to watch what they say, and there is also heavy security around many of the schools in some of the bigger campuses here in Beijing. And right now, as you can see, these officials continually blocking our view to try and stop us from filing any kind of report from Tiananmen Square.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: John Vause, and that is tonight's breakout piece.
As President Obama prepares for tomorrow's major speech to the Muslim world, his daughters are getting ready for something they haven't done since moving to the White House. That is in tonight's "Political Daily Briefing" next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's time now for the "PDB," our "Political Daily Briefing." And Randi Kaye is here. A packed day for the first lady, right?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Her schedule just keeps getting bigger and bigger. First Lady Michelle Obama back on the commencement circuit today, taking time out out of her schedule to address the graduating class of a D.C. math and science charter school.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHELLE OBAMA, FIRST LADY OF THE UNITED STATES: Remember this day, and remember all the hard work that went into getting you to this moment. Don't ever let all that go to waste.
Having made it through these tough times and getting to this point, having worked hard and fought hard to create something better for yourselves, having made the most of every opportunity so far that has come your way, given all that, just think you should have more confidence, not less.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: And later in the day, Mrs. Obama hosted a lunch for former First Lady Nancy Reagan. Of course, wouldn't you have liked to have been a fly on the wall for that conversation?
BROWN: Absolutely. But it didn't stop there. They are off, the whole family traveling now.
KAYE: Yes, I'm ready to pack my bags and actually go along with them. Wouldn't that be nice?
We are seeing reports that Michelle Obama and first daughters, Sasha and Malia, are headed to France to meet up with dad-in-chief on Saturday. European press reporting and the "New York Times" saying that they'll all head to Paris for a family weekend in the city of lights. And the first lady and the girls reportedly will stay in Paris to explore just a little bit.
BROWN: And finally, Conan O'Brien's debut show. Everyone talking about it, the president making a cameo.
KAYE: Even the president is actually talking about Conan O'Brien. He's getting a lot of attention. Even the president is talking about him. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I think that Conan will do an outstanding job. This is something we've discussed several times in the Oval Office, how to manage this transition between Leno and Conan. And I think he's up to the task. But --
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Vote of confidence.
BROWN: Absolutely. Randi, thanks.
That's it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.
