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Campbell Brown
President Obama Reaches Out to Muslim World
Aired June 04, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. President Obama extends a hand to the Muslim world. But did he make the U.S. look stronger or weaker?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: America is not and never will be at war with Islam.
(APPLAUSE)
BROWN: Plus, the "Great Debate." Can moderate Muslims be the ones to defeat terrorists?
OBAMA: The holy Koran teaches that whoever kills an innocence, it's as if he has killed all mankind.
BROWN: And propaganda war.
OBAMA: And it is my first duty as president to protect the American people.
BROWN: Should al Qaeda be more afraid of Obama than Bush? Find out why Osama bin Laden is on the defensive.
Plus, an encounter thousands of years in the making. Who did the president see inside the great pyramid?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
NARRATOR: This is your only source of news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody.
The speech heard around the globe tonight dominating headlines from Washington to Cairo, from Jerusalem to Baghdad, President Obama sending a message, invoking a new dawn in American foreign policy.
And we start tonight, as we do every night, with the "Mash-Up," our look at the stories making impact right now and our must-see moments of the past 24 hours. We are watching it all so you don't have to.
At this hour, President Obama is in Germany, where he will -- he will visit Buchenwald, a concentration camp where Nazis murdered thousands of Jews. Today, though, it was all about reaching out to the Muslim world. In case you missed it, here is the seven-point CliffsNotes version of his 55-minute speech.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Salaam alaikum.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: I have come here to Cairo to seek a new beginning between the United States and Muslims around the world, one based on mutual interest and mutual respect.
The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism in all its forms.
The sooner the extremists are isolated and unwelcome in Muslim communities, the sooner we will all be safer.
The second major source of tension that we need to discuss is the situation between Israelis, Palestinians and the Arab world.
Palestinians must abandon violence.
Just as Israel's right to exist cannot be denied, neither can Palestine's. The United States does not accept the legitimacy of continued Israeli settlements.
The third source of tension is our shared interest in the rights and responsibilities of nations on nuclear weapons.
It's about preventing a nuclear arms race in the Middle East.
The fourth issue that I will address is democracy. No system of government can or should be imposed by one nation by any other.
And we will welcome all elected, peaceful governments, provided they govern with respect for all their people.
The fifth issue that we must address together is religious freedom.
People in every country should be free to choose and live their faith based upon the persuasion of the mind and the heart and the soul.
The sixth issue that I want to address is women's rights.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Our common prosperity will be advanced by allowing all humanity, men and women, to reach their full potential.
Finally, I want to discuss economic development and opportunity. Americans are ready to join with citizens and governments, community organizations, religious leaders, and businesses in Muslim communities around the world to help our people pursue a better life.
The people of the world can live together in peace. We know that is God's vision. Now that must be our work here on Earth.
Thank you. And may God's peace be upon you. Thank you very much.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Thank you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Three thousand people were in the audience for the president's speech. It was translated into 13 languages and composed of almost 6,000 words. Some of the most used are the ones you would expect.
People, Muslim, America each got double-digit mentions. Others underscored the president's message, peace, progress, together. But perhaps the most important word is the one the president did not say today, terrorism, not one mention, a clear sign America's approach to the Muslim world may have changed.
Around the globe today, the president's message did seem to break through.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A new beginning, the words of President Obama speaking today in Cairo as he took the first steps towards building a new relationship between America and the Islamic world.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The overall view here from the Lebanese capital is that Obama took huge strides, especially in shredding off the old Bush administration by traveling to Cairo and giving this speech to the Arab world. But people here want concrete steps taken by this new American administration.
RICHARD ENGEL, NBC REPORTER: In Afghanistan and across the Islamic world, there's been a positive reaction. People were describing it as historic, honest, respectful.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For the most part, those we spoke to in the West Jerusalem cafe and also Palestinians in Ramallah said that they were hopeful, they believed him, they trusted him, they thought that he was serious about trying to make peace, but they need more details.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Here at home, well, the right went right, the left went left. Candy Crowley cut to the chase.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: So, he's dumping on Bush again. He's blaming his predecessor. And he's siding with -- with -- with Islam and with Muslims that they are justified in their attitudes of anger toward the United States. JOY BEHAR, "THE VIEW": I think that he is on the playground of the world. And just like kids need to apologize when they hit somebody else, so...
(CROSSTALK)
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Great speech. It will please a lot of people, but, OK, what is your next act?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, we are going to dig into the president's speech tonight, the ripples sure to be felt for years to come.
Before the president left for Germany, though, he did take in some of the storied sites in the cradle of the Nile. And here you see him in front of the Sphinx, a memorable image from a memorable day.
Before we wrap this up, though, we have got more to share with you, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, her head covered in traditional Muslim tradition, as she and the president visited a mosque.
And that is the "Mash-Up."
And from that to tonight's first big question: Did President Obama make the U.S. look stronger or weaker today?
And here to answer that, CNN contributor Bill Bennett, host of the national radio talk show "Morning in America," Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS," CNN national security contributor Fran Townsend, who was President Bush's homeland security adviser, and NPR contributor John Ridley, who has been joining us all week.
Guys, thanks very much for being here. Before we start, listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Nine-eleven was an enormous trauma to our country. The fear and anger that it provoked was understandable. But in some cases, it led us to act contrary to our traditions and our ideals.
We are taking concrete actions to change course.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, 9/11 made us act contrary to our ideals.
Bill Bennett, what do you think?
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I think that is the wrong emphasis for 9/11 -- 9/11 was a slaughter, a slaughter of innocents. And I think for the most part we did very well in terms of our response. He didn't apologize as much on this trip as he did the last time he left the United States. There were still some echoes of it. But I think the bottom line is, what's the net result of it? I was checking out what Osama bin Laden had to say. That was the day before yesterday. He didn't seem much anticipating the speech at all, unlike the rest of us.
And he still seems pretty upset that we are helping Pakistan, that we're going into Afghanistan, that we're on the Arabian Peninsula. I don't think this will make much difference at all.
Despite all the joy out there and surprise, George Bush actually went to Egypt and gave a speech. He actually called Islam the religion of peace. Could you be nicer to Saudi Arabia than George Bush was? Is this a new olive leaf to Saudi Arabia? So, all these nice words have been said before. The problem is, we are still engaged in a global war against Islamist terror. The president did bring up that we have enemies. He didn't use the terror word. I just don't think it will make much difference.
BROWN: Do you agree?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: No.
And I actually think Bill nicely encapsulates why, because I think he missed the point of the speech. The point of the speech was not to convert Osama bin Laden. I think that we both would agree that it will have no effect, not just on bin Laden, but on the thousands and thousands of people who follow him.
The point of the speech was to win over the majority, the mainstream communities in the Muslim world, who, while not agreeing with bin Laden, and they have shown this in 100 different ways, whether in polls, whether in elections, are still uneasy about the fact that that places them in a kind of tacit alliance with the United States, that they are trying to find some middle ground and he is trying to make it safer for them to feel that the United States respects them, honors them, the little things, the symbols, the speaking a few Arabic words with the correct pronunciation.
Bill is again right that Bush did say some of these things. And it's fascinating to notice how much more what Obama is saying is resonating, as -- as your own reaction suggested. So, the audience here is really the -- the mainstream Muslim communities, who he asked as item number one to expel and isolate the extremists within your midst.
BROWN: Fran, what did you think?
FRANCES FRAGOS TOWNSEND, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I do think that the speech was an important one.
I do have a problem with it. You can call it anything you want. He -- the president in his speech calls it violent extremists. These are terrorists, and they are meant to terrorize populations. They're meant to intimidate governments. That's what they are. And so it doesn't really matter, but it's important that we label them and call them for what they are. And so I was troubled by the fact that he didn't use the word terrorists.
ZAKARIA: But, Fran, may I ask a question? Wasn't it the right's insistence for the last four or eight years that the problem with calling these people terrorists was, you were talking about a tactic? What you needed to describe them as was extremists or Islamic extremists, because that's whom we are against.
We are fighting a battle against people who are...
BENNETT: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAKARIA: ... who use terror as a tactic. I thought it was entirely...
BENNETT: Yes, Islamic terrorists would be more accurate.
ZAKARIA: Right. It was -- it was entirely appropriate.
Terror is a tactic. We are not fighting a tactic. We are fighting the people who represent a perverted ideology.
(CROSSTALK)
TOWNSEND: Well, that's right.
(CROSSTALK)
ZAKARIA: I mean, he kept the focus front and center on that.
TOWNSEND: That's right, but we do have a problem with the tactic. And those who use it, those who use terrorism are terrorists, and we do have a problem with that. And we shouldn't shy away from calling it -- I think this is -- but I think there is -- there's an importance in terms of understanding what our objectives are.
I think the speech was a good idea. On the other hand, I also thought it was a very interesting point. He took on the myth in the Arab world that there was some conspiracy behind 9/11. I thought that was a very good thing. I think it was important that he acknowledged there is this myth, and it's not true, that it's a fact that there -- it was the murder of innocents on 9/11. He didn't say it quite as strongly as Bill Bennett would have said it.
BROWN: Right.
TOWNSEND: But I think that was important that he -- he actually called them on that.
BROWN: John, was his emphasis in the right place?
JOHN RIDLEY, COMMENTATOR, NATIONAL PUBLIC RADIO: I think it was. And I think, first of all, we can have an argument about semantics, about what these individuals should or shouldn't be called. They don't care. The extremists are going to do what they are going to do. I think more importantly is, what is achieved? And that is trying to get a coalition of people together.
And, interestingly, the three most important issues in that region are how we deal with Iraq, the Palestinian issue, and how Muslims and Arabs are viewed in the rest of the world. And you can see by the response when the president talked about we are not going to let these stereotypes go forward, that there was a real resonance with these individuals. That's going to get these people together.
More importantly, what President Obama can do that no other president could do is he can personify nonviolent resistance and what it means. And when he talked about what happened in America, also in South Africa and how violence is nothing but a dead end, it really means something.
And I think being able to carry that message, as an African- American, not just a black American, as an African-American, really makes a difference.
BROWN: All right.
BENNETT: What does the nonviolent message, how does that resonate with sending troops into Afghanistan, back the Pakistani government?
RIDLEY: Well, I think it resonates with the moderates. As was being said, I think it resonates with the moderates that, if you want to change something, you are not going to do it by blowing up, as he said, old women on buses and things like that.
(CROSSTALK)
RIDLEY: That makes a difference and it's worked and has been effective. So, the extremists are not going to be swayed. We all know that. But the moderates can be swayed.
ZAKARIA: But, Bill, I think -- I think it's a good question.
BENNETT: Thank you. Thank you.
BENNETT: I got something right. Thank you.
ZAKARIA: But think about the -- the place he says it. He says it when talking about the Palestinians.
And I think what he was doing, though, that was -- that was important. He was not just doing the ritual denunciation of Palestinian terrorism, which everybody does and every president has done. What I thought he was trying to do was to explain to the Palestinian people why it is totally ineffective. And that's where the point is. He says, this doesn't work. Look at what worked in India. Look at what worked in South Africa. BROWN: Right.
ZAKARIA: And look at what worked in the United States.
BROWN: Guys, stand by.
BENNETT: Yes.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Because you are staying with me. We are going to talk a lot more about this, and specifically what translates from here, what -- when we go beyond words into actions, which a lot of people have questions about. We will be talking about that more.
We should mention, also, Fareed is going to have a lot more of this, this weekend on his show, "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS." That's Sunday afternoon 1:00 and 5:00 Eastern time.
And tonight's "Great Debate": Can moderate Muslims defeat extremists? We are going to hear from a former Muslim and author who says not the way things stand right now. Hear why she compares Islam to fascism.
And on the other side, the only Muslim in Congress who says moderates are the majority, a really fascinating conversation still ahead. Plus, also tonight's newsmaker -- you guessed it -- Barack Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody.
Time now for tonight's newsmaker. And there is only one clear choice this evening. It is President Obama. We have heard people all day on cable news talking about his big speech. But we wanted to spend a little more time tonight actually listening to the president, in his own words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: As the Holy Koran tells us, "Be conscious of God and speak always the truth."
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: That is what I will try to do today, to speak the truth as best I can. Humbled by the task before us and firm in my belief that the interests we share as human beings are far more powerful than the forces that drive us apart.
And I consider it part of my responsibility as president of the United States to fight against negative stereotypes of Islam wherever they appear.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: But that same principle must apply to Muslim perceptions of America. Just as...
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: Just as Muslims do not fit a crude stereotype, America is not the crude stereotype of a self-interested empire. The United States has been one of the greatest sources of progress that the world has ever known. We were born out of revolution against an empire.
We were founded upon the ideal that all are created equal. And we have shed blood and struggled for centuries to give meaning to those words, within our borders and around the world.
We are shaped by every culture. Drawn from every end of the Earth, and dedicated to a simple concept, E pluribus unum: Out of many, one.
Now, much has been made of the fact that an African-American with the name "Barack Hussein Obama" could be elected president.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: But my personal story is not so unique. The dream of opportunity for all people has not come true for everyone in America, but its promise exists for all who come to our shores. And that includes nearly 7 million American Muslims in our country today who, by the way, enjoy incomes and educational levels that are higher than the American average.
The first issue that we have to confront is violent extremism in all its forms. In Ankara, I made clear that America is not and never will be at war with Islam.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: We will, however, relentlessly confront violent extremists who pose a grave threat to our security because we reject the same thing that people of all faiths reject, the killing of innocent men, women, and children. And it is my first duty as president to protect the American people.
The situation in Afghanistan demonstrates America's goals and our need to work together. Over seven years ago, the United States pursued al Qaeda and the Taliban with broad international support. We did not go by choice. We went because of necessity. I'm aware that there's still some who would question or even justify the offense of 9/11. But let us be clear: Al Qaeda killed nearly 3,000 people on that day. The victims were innocent men, women, and children from America and many other nations who had done nothing to harm anybody. And yet al Qaeda chose to ruthlessly murder these people, claimed credit for the attack, and even now states their determination to kill on a massive scale. They have affiliates in many countries and are trying to expand their reach.
These are not opinions to be debated. These are facts to be dealt with.
I know there has been controversy about the promotion of democracy in recent years. And much of this controversy is connected to the war in Iraq. So let me be clear. No system of government can or should be imposed by one nation by any other. That does not lessen my commitment, however, to governments that reflect the will of the people.
Each nation gives life to this principle in its own way, grounded in the traditions of its own people. America does not presume to know what is best for everyone, just as we would not presume to pick the outcome of a peaceful election.
But I do have an unyielding belief that all people yearn for certain things: the ability to speak your mind and have a say in how you are governed, confidence in the rule of law and the equal administration of justice, government that is transparent and doesn't steal from the people, the freedom to live as you choose.
These are not just American ideas. They are human rights. And that is why we will support them everywhere.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: You just heard the president speaking all about al Qaeda, about 9/11. A big question tonight: Should al Qaeda be more afraid of President Obama than President Bush? That next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody.
Time to check on some of the other stories making news now.
Our Erica Hill is back with tonight's briefing.
Hey.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell.
And we start tonight in Philadelphia, where the police commissioner is not filing any charges against the people who beat up a man wanted for questioning in the rape of an 11-year-old girl. A surveillance camera caught the moment he was confronted and then chased by people, as you see in the video here, who recognized him as the man in a flyer police had handed out.
Well, off-camera, they allegedly beat him for several minutes. Police say his injuries, though, are not life-threatening. The ACLU, however, is questioning the commission's decision.
A former Bay Area Rapid Transit cop, BART, if you're familiar with the area, is going to stand trial for murder in the shooting death of an unarmed man on a train platform. That New Year's Day shooting was captured, of course, by surveillance camera in Oakland, as well as a number of cell phone cameras.
Johannes Mehserle said he would reach -- he had reached for his stun gun, but grabbed for his pistol instead. Mehserle has pleaded not guilty.
Police in Thailand say actor David Carradine's death appears to be a suicide. Police say his body was found hanging in a hotel room closet in Bangkok, where he was shooting a movie. Carradine starred in Quentin Tarantino's "Kill Bill" movies, but was probably best known for the '70s TV series "Kung Fu."
Larry King will have much more coming up at 9:00 Eastern.
And, finally tonight, a mystery and a treasure hunt in New Zealand. A man claims he has hidden the $3,000 diamond engagement ring you see here somewhere in Wellington, New Zealand. He plans to post clues on Twitter and give it away in a treasure hunt on Saturday. Why, you ask?
Well, his girlfriend said no when he popped the question. So, now he hopes a man who has -- quote -- "found a cool chick" will find the ring. It will be theirs to have.
Apparently, she said no, Campbell, because he wasn't the only guy she was dating.
BROWN: Oh. Oh, I feel bad for him.
HILL: Yes. And he feels like the ring brought him bad luck. He doesn't want to keep it. But it will be lucky to someone else, in his words.
BROWN: Yes, those aren't really returnable, I guess, yes.
HILL: Not so much.
BROWN: OK.
Erica Hill for us tonight.
We will see you back again a little bit later.
Tonight's "Great Debate," the premise: Moderate Muslims cannot defeat extremists. We are going to talk to the only Muslim in Congress and an author who is under death threat for renouncing her religion -- two very different points of view. And, as always, we want to know what you think. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody.
Every night at this time, the "Great Debate."
Tonight's premise: Moderate Muslims cannot defeat extremists.
Here to debate, Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Her foundation defends the rights of women in the West against militant Islam. Her memoir is called "Infidel." She says moderate Muslims can't win, the way it stands right now -- on the other side, Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison.
The president mentioned him in his speech today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: When the first Muslim-American was recently elected to Congress, he took the oath to defend our Constitution using the same Holy Koran that one of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, kept in his personal library.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Congressman Ellison thinks moderates can win this war.
We want to know what you think. Cast your vote by calling the number at the bottom of the screen. First, we're going to have an opening statement from each. Thirty seconds on the clock. Ayaan, you first.
AYAAN HIRSI ALI, AUTHOR, "INFIDEL": As things stand now, I do not think that moderate Muslims can defeat extremists. There are many reasons for that, but I'll mention just two.
The first reason is both moderate Muslims and extremists hold the Koran to be the true word of God and to be applicable as a book of law, but only in the seventh century but today.
The second reason is the position that Muslims give to the Prophet Muhammad as a model leader. The extremists do that and the moderates do it, and that means the extremists will win. And I would suggest and I know, and most people know it's very difficult to agree on who is an extremist, who is a moderate.
BROWN: Right.
ALI: But that is an academic discussion.
BROWN: OK.
ALI: The definition of convention right now...
BROWN: All right.
ALI: ... is that moderate Muslims are people who are assimilated, you know, who wanted (ph) Americans here.
BROWN: Ayaan, we're going to -- 30 seconds just for an opening statement. We'll talk a lot more about this, but I want to go to Congressman Ellison. Go ahead.
REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: Well, the real frame is not whether moderate Muslims or extremist Muslims will win out in any battle. It's all people who believe in moderation, believe in balance will be able to win out over all people who believe in extreme use of violence in order to achieve their ends.
It's not a proper frame to begin with, but I will say this. Look at the applause lines that President Obama got today in Cairo. The moderates were cheering when he talked about human rights around the world, when he talked about freedom of expression, when he talked about casting the vote. And I'm sure that the people who didn't like what he had to say were upset because Osama bin Laden issued his denunciation right away. He was upset about it.
BROWN: It seems to me that you both have a different definition of Islam, of what it really means to be Muslim. Am I right in saying that? Ayaan, go ahead.
ALI: I think you are right in saying that. I don't want to define.
I want to say Islam has three dimensions. It has a spiritual side. It has a social side, and it has a political dimension to it.
And for all Muslims who just believe in the spiritual side, praying, fasting, that's fine. But if you believe in the social, especially the more political dimension which is jihad, and the idea that you must convert non-Muslims to Islam by force, then you are not and cannot be called a moderate. And all of that is in the Koran. All of that has been the example that the Prophet Muhammad gave in the seventh century.
ELLISON: I'm afraid that my friend is wrong.
ALI: And I think we need to have to --
ELLISON: I'm afraid my friend is incorrect on the facts. In fact, the Koran says that there's no compulsion in religion and truth stands free from falsehood. In fact, forced coercions, force conversions are anti-Islamic and un-Islamic. So my dear friend, it was -- is misstating what the Koran actually says.
ALI: My dear congressman, I think you are misstating it. I grew up with the Koran. I know passages of it by heart. And there are passages that say convert the infidel, ambush him, kill him, take his property.
ELLISON: Well, my friend, I know it by heart. ALI: Now it doesn't matter. A lot of holy books say that. That doesn't matter. It depends on the number of Muslims that believe that and take that seriously. And there are few Muslims --
ELLISON: No matter how loud you say it, it doesn't make it true.
ALI: Congressman, congressman, there are --
ELLISON: No matter how loud you say it, it doesn't make it true.
ALI: Mr. Ellison --
BROWN: All right. Let her make her point, congressman. Go ahead.
ALI: I want to finish my point. And my point is that so many Muslims who will not distance themselves from this because they see the Koran to be the true word of God and they believe that even on the 21st century, the Prophet Mohammed's example should be followed.
BROWN: Go ahead, congressman.
ELLISON: Well, the Koran says that we created you from a single pair, male and female, and made you into nations and tribes so that you would know each other. That is what the Koran is about. The Koran is about social justice and peace.
Now, look, if you look at the Bible and you read about the way Joshua took the promised land, there's violence described there. So I'm not saying that there is not -- there are not religious texts that make reference to violence. It's in all religions.
ALI: But --
ELLISON: But the people who -- but the people who adhere to the overwhelming majority of people who practice Islam every day, do it as a way to inspire themselves to greater humanity, greater peace, greater love of neighbor, greater love of self and greater self- respect...
ALI: I think --
ELLISON: ... that's what it's all about. I embrace it because there's an optimistic vision.
ALI: I don't think that's what it --
ELLISON: An optimistic vision.
BROWN: Ayaan, go ahead. Respond.
ALI: If that's what it were all about, we would not have had 9/11. Islam would not be the leading ideology.
ELLISON: That's a logical fallacy and overgeneralization.
ALI: Let me finish. Let me finish it, please.
Islam as a theology would not be the leading ideology for terrorism.
(CROSSTALK)
ELLISON: In a statement (INAUDIBLE) for the individuals and neighbors.
ALI: Let me finish it.
BROWN: Let her finish her point.
ALI: Let me finish my point. And I will tell you, yes there are things in the Torah. There are things in the bible that are violent, but Christians have managed and Jews have managed to marginalize --
ELLISON: The (inaudible) inquisition?
ALI: Let me finish my point. They have managed to marginalize the extremists communities or the extremist rules (ph) in the --
ELLISON: The extremists in Islam are already marginalized and will continue to do so.
ALI: They are not marginalized.
ELLISON: Yes, they are.
ALI: Saudi Arabia, which is the home of Islam, the Sharia law, hands of people are cut off, people are beheaded, adults are stoned.
Look at Iran. They're developing a nuclear bomb to annihilate another state. They're not marginalized. They are mainstream (ph) and we cannot win.
BROWN: All right.
ELLISON: Look at Indonesia, look at Maldives, look at Turkey, look at Muslims.
(CROSSTALK)
ALI: Look at Indonesia, and they're having a hard time. They're having a hard time surviving.
ELLISON: These are democratic countries. They're Muslim- majority countries.
ALI: They are Muslim-majority countries.
ELLISON: And we should count an example --
ALI: They are Muslim-majority countries.
BROWN: All right. ALI: But they're not ruled according to Islam.
BROWN: OK.
ALI: They're not following the example of the Prophet Mohammed.
BROWN: All right. Guys, we're going to take a quick break and take a breath. But when we come back, we are going to do something we try to do here every night which is to find common ground when there are very passionate differences here. So think about that during the break and when we come back, I want to hear from you where you think you can agree.
And the results of our viewer votes also when we come back. Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We're back with tonight's "Great Debate." The premise, moderate Muslims cannot defeat extremists. And Ayaan Hirsi Ali says no, not the way things are now. Minnesota Congressman Keith Ellison says yes, yes they can.
Now, we're going to look for common ground between the two of you. I hope there is some common ground here.
Congressman, tell me an area where you think the two of you can agree.
ELLISON: Well, I just want to say "assalam alaykum" to Ms. Ali. Peace be unto her. That's a Muslim greeting. We greet each other in peace every day. I wish her peace.
ALI: (SPEAKING ARABIC).
ELLISON: And I wish her peace and I hope that we can one day embrace the good, embrace an optimistic vision of what Islam is, and not embrace what negative individuals who all the world regard as terrorists and reject what they have to say. The greater majority are about peace, and I think that if you search your heart you'll see that.
BROWN: Ayaan, what do you think? Where can you agree?
ALI: We can agree on the fact that the congressman and I are both admirers of Thomas Jefferson. And if those individuals in Islam who consider themselves to be moderate, give the Holy Koran and the Hadith example that the Prophet Muhammad left behind, that Thomas Jefferson treatment, which is take a razor blade, cut off all of those things that are violent and violate human rights, then we have common ground. Maybe good old Thomas Jefferson can unite us.
BROWN: All right, guys, we appreciate your time tonight. Thank you for a very passionate debate. Thank you both for your time.
And we want to see right now how you at home voted in tonight's "Great Debate." Forty percent agree that moderate Muslims cannot defeat extremists. Sixty percent disagree.
Again, this is not a scientific poll, just a snapshot from our viewers who called in. We appreciate the phone calls.
We have a new "Great Debate" every night on the show. Tomorrow's premise, segregated proms should be allowed. We're going to talk about that tomorrow night.
Another big question coming up, is Al Qaeda more afraid of President Obama than President Bush? The battle for hearts and minds that has Osama bin Laden playing defense. Maybe? We'll talk about that.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Now, time for our third big question of the night. Should Al Qaeda be more afraid of Obama than Bush? And back to talk about that, John Ridley and Bill Bennett once again. Also joined by CNN international correspondent Michael Ware and Fran Townsend, also back with us as well.
Mike -- Michael, let me start with you. No coincidence probably that bin Laden releases a tape...
MICHAL WARE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: No, not at all.
BROWN: ... just as he's heading toward the region. Who do you think --
WARE: Yes, cheap PR stuff, you know.
BROWN: Whose message do you think is resonating right now more with the Arab street this week?
WARE: Well, I certainly think that without doubt President Obama has the ball in his court right now. I mean, the Arab street is hungry for something new. Now, whether this is going to be enough, only time will tell.
As we've been saying, this was a landmark speech. It was telling in its oratory and in its format. But is it going to be backed up by action? That's what the Arab street is waiting for. And if it's not, then we're going to be left with what we are.
We need to see President Obama take real action, for example, in the Arab mind on Israel. Because if there is no action there, then there's no difference to them between a President Bush and a President Obama, and that's again in the Arab mind.
President Obama may be the good guy that he is, but to many on the ground, it's still the military and the CIA that runs the show. So we need to see real action before we determine who wins this debate.
BROWN: So to that point, we all analyzed the speech earlier. Talk about the action part of it. What has to happen now, Fran, in your view, for this to go to the next level?
FRAN TOWNSEND, FORMER HOMELAND SECURITY ADVISER: Well, when we heard President Obama again talk about changing interrogation techniques and changing Guantanamo, closing Guantanamo, but we don't hear -- he hasn't even told his own party, he hasn't told Congress the details of that. We're still waiting for the details. And to Michael's point, we don't understand how he's going to implement that.
You know, the fascinating thing you asked about bin Laden's statement, the fascinating thing about that is he's angry and accuses President Obama of following the policies of the prior administration. That's really a reference to the Predator strikes and the support of Pakistan in the tribal areas.
That ought to be good news to the American people. We're talking about the reaction in the Arab world. The American people ought to feel pretty good that we've maintained an aggressive posture and that, frankly, makes Osama bin Laden mad.
BROWN: Bill?
BILL BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I don't know. George Bush can't do much to him right now. He doesn't have Fran Townsend anymore and he isn't in office. But, you know, Osama bin Laden declares war on the United States no matter who's president. That's, you know, twice when Bill Clinton was in office.
Flannery O'Connor said once, "I hate to say I find tedious what's giving so much exhilaration." But I found the speech tedious. I don't know how you say it's landmark until we see what comes of it. It's a speech George Bush could have given in all its particulars.
WARE: But he never did.
BENNETT: Yes, he did. He sure did.
WARE: Could have, would have.
BENNETT: And he did. He did.
TOWNSEND: He did.
BENNETT: He gave a speech in Egypt. By the way, there is still an interrogation going on in Egypt, which this administration supports.
WARE: Of course.
BROWN: So what policies are you looking for? I mean, what do you want to say he did?
BENNETT: Well, first of all, I'm basically pleased with what he's doing. Despite all this rhetoric, he is carrying on the war in Iraq. He is pumping the troops in Afghanistan. He is supporting the Pakistanis against the Taliban. Good stuff.
Now if George Bush does it, it's terrible. But when he does it, they love it. Fine with me.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, explain the difference.
BENNETT: Certainly, they love his tone. They love his tone better, but I like the act.
WARE: I think it's part of the stint (ph).
BROWN: Is it about more than tone?
JOHN RIDLEY, NPR CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I disagree. I don't think it was a good speech. I do agree that it was very short on specifics. I don't think that's unusual for President Obama.
WARE: Yes, can we expect --
RIDLEY: It's a first stage speech but I will say this -- you know, the question is, should they fear former President Bush or Bush in his office or Obama? The reality is they are fearing the united front. And that's what has got to happen here is, is the president now with all that he's facing, can he get not just America, not just the world, but specifically the Arabs behind?
I think he said some things that can move the moderates in that direction. I don't think it's an either/or opposition. Can he get the united front to help on the war on terror?
BENNETT: If he can get more people behind him because they like him better and they like his name better and they like his approach better, even though what he's saying is actually the same thing as George Bush, (INAUDIBLE) that's fine with me.
BROWN: But why does he miss that? I mean, the fact that here's a guy who looks like them, who has a name like them, that means something.
BENNETT: Well, fine, that's good. But what will it come to?
RIDLEY: Yes.
BENNETT: That is, will all of a sudden people say, by gosh, you're right and I hope you do stay in Iraq until things are safe. And we support you sending more troops into Afghanistan. If they say that, then fine. Otherwise, it's just a feel good. Let's wait and see.
TOWNSEND: Campbell, I think it can't be lost on people, including in the Arab world, he did make much of his middle name Barack Hussein Obama in his speech today.
BROWN: Right.
TOWNSEND: Do you think that the Arab world it was lost on them that he refused to use his middle name in his inauguration, he refused to use it during the campaign?
WARE: No, I think they're going to give him now -- I think they're finally living in the now.
TOWNSEND: Well, I don't think so.
RIDLEY: I don't know that he could use his middle name. I don't think he had too. I think it was critical (ph) to place.
WARE: Listen, after President Bush -- I'm sorry -- in the Middle East, America's name was less than mud. I'm sorry. Loathed and despised even by the moderates who are desperate to support.
(CROSSTALK)
TOWNSEND: Wait a minute.
BENNETT: You were there.
WARE: Yes.
BENNETT: But it had to make some difference to people in Iraq and Afghanistan. George Bush liberated 40 million or 50 million of them.
TOWNSEND: Thank you.
BENNETT: Barack Obama has liberated none of them.
WARE: That's not how they see it. He brought occupation (ph). He brought Abu Ghraib.
BENNETT: They want to go back.
WARE: He brought their children --
BENNETT: They want to go back.
WARE: Listen, that's what he brought.
BENNETT: They want to go back. They don't want democracy.
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: The Iraqis have long said...
BENNETT: Well, you guys are saying what they think.
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: ... if this is democracy, we want to take tyranny.
I think -- I think it's going to take some deft footwork by the new administration to reshape that thinking. But at the end of the day, they need to deliver with previous administrations haven't and that's in Israel and Palestine. And that we still haven't seen any real movement in Afghanistan.
BENNETT: I hope not.
WARE: What's happening in Pakistan? There's the answer. Therein lies the solution.
BROWN: We've got 30 seconds.
WARE: And we're not ready yet.
BENNETT: Well, again, we shall see what he does.
WARE: Exactly. Yet to believe.
BENNETT: But again, the basic outlines of the policy have not changed, have they?
WARE: Well --
BENNETT: I mean, if you talk about you as policy toward Iraq, toward Afghanistan, toward Pakistan...
BROWN: All right.
BENNETT: ... it hasn't changed.
BROWN: And we will -- we will --
WARE: Obviously, Iran --
BENNETT: A smiley face on it.
WARE: To Iran it certainly has.
BROWN: To be continued. To be continued. A great panel, guys. Thanks very much. Appreciate it.
"LARRY KING LIVE" minutes away with new developments in the death of actor David Carradine.
Larry, tell us what you got.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": You know, Campbell, the sudden and mysterious death of David Carradine has taken a lot of people by complete surprise. His "Kill Bill" director, Quentin Tarantino, and other friends and colleagues are going to join us to talk about Carradine's influence in television and movies, and the strange circumstances surrounding the death in Thailand.
And Queen Noor is going to be here with her take on President Obama's trip to the Middle East and that speech today. Next on "LARRY KING LIVE," Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see in you a few.
So how is this for a business plan? Make your customers wait in line for hours in the rain, don't take reservations, be late half the time? Find out how one restaurant is turning that idea into profit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Now, "Money and Main Street." Every week at this time we look at how some of the smallest businesses in America are thriving in the challenging economy and there are success stories out there. Ted Rowlands found one in Los Angeles, a fast food joint that's unique because its success comes, in part, because it's actually hard to find.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): (INAUDIBLE) must have that has people scrambling to find and waiting hours to buy is a $2 taco, sold from a difficult-to-find food truck called Kogi.
The tacos and other specialties are the creation of Chef Roy Choi who along with two business partners started Kogi last November.
CAROLINE SHIN-MANGUERA, KOGI CO-FOUNDER: It doesn't make any sense whatsoever. We make our people wait in line for two hours, and we make them wait in the rain. We don't give them chairs to sit on. We don't take reservations. We're late half the time, you know, but we must be doing something right.
ROWLANDS: It's not just the food, a mix of Korean and Mexican cuisine, there's also the chase. There are two Kogi trucks. One is named Verde, the other Roja. Finding either requires some work. Locations are posted online and updated on Twitter. Changes are frequent.
The night we followed Chef Roy plans to go to Orange County were scrapped at the last minute because they couldn't get a permit.
ROY CHOI, CHEF OF KOGI: We sent out our Twitter and we are going right to the county line of L.A. County and we're going to sell our food.
ROWLANDS: When the truck arrived, a line was waiting. Kogi is so popular that most nights the truck runs out of food. Kogi YouTube videos show how long the lines can get. They also show what length some people go to find a Kogi truck.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, there it is. Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: There's even a rap song about Kogi.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MUSIC: Kogi didn't do. Next time in L.A. you know exactly what to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROWLANDS: Kogi fans run the gambit from the professional lunch crowd to "Lord the Rings" star Elijah Wood who recently hired the truck for his birthday.
Business is so good two more trucks are on the way for Los Angeles and plans are being made for a possible truck in New York.
Ted Rowlands, CNN, Los Angeles.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Go to CNNMoney.com/moneyandmainstreet for more on how Americans are finding creative ways to survive in this challenging economy. One that caught our eye, millions of green jobs in the nation's budding renewable energy field. And you can see a new "Money and Main Street" report right here every Thursday night.
We'll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And we leave with you this tonight. Following his big speech today, the president made his way to the Great Pyramids where he also stumbled upon a familiar face in an ancient hieroglyphic.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: That looks like me. Look at those ears.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, wait, let's get a side by side comparison there. Yes, the president called his top aides including Rahm Emanuel and David Axelrod to take a look, to make the comparison. No one seems to disagree.
That's it for us. I'm Campbell Brown.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
