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CNN LARRY KING LIVE

American Journalists Sentenced to 12 Years Hard Time in North Korea; Reality TV: How Real Is It?

Aired June 8, 2009 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


JOY BEHAR, GUEST HOST: Tonight, Lisa Ling's sister Laura and Euna Lee convicted -- the two journalists sentenced to 12 years hard time in North Korea. Four-year-old Hannah wants her mom to come home. Anguished husbands, parents and siblings do, too.

What can our government do now to free them?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, SECRETARY OF STATE: We're engaged in all possible ways, through every possible channel, to secure their release.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Dan Rather is here to tell us if there's hope in this high stakes standoff.

Plus, the obsession with Jon and Kate, Susan Boyle and other celebrity wannabes -- is a steady diet of reality TV creating monsters, making us crave them all the more?

Joan and Melissa Rivers know firsthand. Wait until you hear what they have to say.

Then, the strange, suspicious death of David Carradine -- did he tie himself up in a bizarre suicide attempt or was someone else involved?

Next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Thanks for joining us.

I'm Joy Behar sitting in for Larry tonight.

Today, American journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee were sentenced to 12 years hard labor by a North Korean court.

Is this just the beginning of what could turn into a larger international crisis?

Joining me to discuss the situation is Dan Rather. He's the anchor and managing editor of HDNet, "Dan Rather Reports" and has reported from North Korea. And Franklin Graham will join us shortly. He's president of Samaritan's Purse, a relief organization that's been allowed to work inside North Korea. Franklin has visited the country twice, most recently last year.

What is your reaction to this North Korea thing with these two girls?

DAN RATHER, ANCHOR & MANAGING EDITOR, "DAN RATHER REPORTS": Well, first of all, I think this was expected. I certainly expected it.

BEHAR: You mean the verdict?

RATHER: The verdict. The trial, the verdict, the sentencing.

BEHAR: Yes.

RATHER: I think to be expected.

I think it needs to be seen, Joy, in the context of the North Korean regime is testing the Obama administration. They almost desperately do not want to get lost in the shuffle of a new presidential administration. And they're eager to call attention to themselves and what they consider to be the unfairness that previous American administrations have put on them.

And therefore, unfortunately, these two young women journalists become a bit of a bargaining chip with them.

It would not surprise me at all to see a high level American emissary sent to North Korea. Bill Richardson, the governor of New Mexico, is trusted by the North Koreans. He's been there many times; perhaps former Vice President Gore, who would give added weight to it and the North Koreans would like that.

I think it needs to be seen in this context. The North Koreans are furious because, A, the United Nations is considering sanctions on them because they sent a multi-stage rocket into Japanese territory. They've threatened, excuse me. They've threatened to resume nuclear testing. So (INAUDIBLE) fears about the possibility of U.N. sanctions. They also don't like the fact that Secretary of State Hillary Clinton has been talking about the possibility of reinstating them on the official United States terrorist state government list.

BEHAR: They don't -- they don't like that?

RATHER: They don't like that, as we'd would say at home, naran (ph), absolutely none.

So I think it needs to be seen in that context.

One can be hopeful, however -- I wouldn't say expectant, not yet -- but hopeful that they will be released, because the pattern in the past has been that if the North Koreans can get some engagement from the U.S. government, then they'll begin to negotiate about the release of these two.

Let's hope that works out this time, as well.

BEHAR: Well, Bill Richardson said that there is some cause for hope. He said that they were not charged with espionage -- of espionage. So that's the good news, I guess.

RATHER: Well, if there's any good news, that's the good news.

BEHAR: Yes.

RATHER: I (INAUDIBLE).

BEHAR: But he also -- he has other things. He also said that this is a high stakes poker game with Ling and Lee as bargaining chips.

What do you think?

RATHER: Well, that's the reason I used the phrase bargaining chips.

BEHAR: Yes.

RATHER: Look, it could be something else, but I don't think so. I think it needs to be seen as they're looking for leverage. And these two unfortunate journalists, who are now prisoners, give them some -- some leverage.

I think this business of the sanctions worries them quite a bit, that they really don't want the United Nations to put new sanctions on them.

BEHAR: Yes.

RATHER: And that worries them a lot. And they are worried about this business of secretary of State talking about naming them -- putting them back on the terrorist list.

BEHAR: The axis of evil list?

RATHER: Yes. I don't think anybody uses that phrase anymore...

BEHAR: No.

RATHER: But that list.

BEHAR: Do you think that that antagonized them so much, to the point where they...

RATHER: I think it antagonized them and I think it frightened them, quite frankly.

BEHAR: It frightened them?

RATHER: They don't like to talk in terms of being frightened, of course. You know, they put forward, listen, we're brave. We don't -- we didn't buckle in front of the United States during the Korean War.

BEHAR: Everybody does that.

RATHER: One thing you may want to know...

BEHAR: Yes?

RATHER: And this is my opinion, clearly labeled. I think the Chinese are key here. The North Koreans depend mightily on the Chinese. In a broad, general way, they are ideologically tied to both the Chinese and the Russians. But particularly, if China -- if another in power in China picks up the phone and says, listen, guys, you've gone too far, let these two Americans go, they would be out before the phone could hit the cradle.

BEHAR: Do you think they'll do that?

RATHER: I have no way of knowing.

BEHAR: Well, what is your guess?

I mean what would prevent them from doing it or what would make them do it?

A call from Obama, something like that?

RATHER: Well, I don't think they can be made to do it. I don't think the Chinese can be forced to do anything. But, certainly, an intercession by President Obama or perhaps Secretary of State Clinton. All of this would done quietly, behind-the-scenes, telling the Chinese.

But the North Koreans would want something. Let's say, hypothetically, the Chinese called and say, look, we think you've gone too far, let these two people go. And let's just say they let them go.

The North Koreans will say well, how about let's having -- for example, the North Koreans say that they were promised -- they were promised some help with their energy problem. You know, this is a desperately poor country. I'm not trying to get sympathy for them. It's a desperately poor country. It can't feed itself. There are literally hundreds of thousands, if not millions of people, in North Korea who are starving, many of them women and children.

They need food. They need energy resources. So the North Koreans say, well, listen, how about making Japan come through with that promise of help on our energy front or something like that?

It's just a little footnote bottom of the page. China is key here. As in anything to do with the North Koreans, they always are.

BEHAR: The families of Laura Ling and Euna Lee were guests on the program last week. Laura's sister, journalist Lisa Ling, shared her fears and the story of the phone call she received from her sister late on May 26th. Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM JUNE 1, 2009)

LISA LING, LAURA LING'S SISTER: I picked up the phone and I heard this little voice say, "Lee, it's me. I need your help."

And the call lasted about four minutes. And it was extremely emotional. I'm surprised we were even able to get our words out.

But in the course of that four minute conversation, she said that the only way that she may be able to get released is if our two countries communicate. And that's one of the reasons why we wanted to go public, to encourage our governments to do so.

LARRY KING, HOST: How did she sound?

LING: She sounded scared, Larry. I mean she sounds absolutely terrified. You know, it's been almost three months and the communication with her has been so limited. We got that one phone call. That was the first time I had heard her voice in two-and-a-half months. And we'd gotten one letter. Our family got one letter and her husband got one letter. And then that's it.

The only people who have seen them, outside of the North Koreans, is the Swedish delegation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: These are very close sisters.

RATHER: Yes, sure.

BEHAR: I know Lisa from "The View." And they're very close girls. And it's such a heart-wrenching thing to watch them go through this. It's a terrible thing.

What about the timing of these journalists being held and the test -- the missile test?

Is there some connection?

RATHER: My opinion is yes.

BEHAR: Yes?

RATHER: I think there's a lot of connection. As I say, once the North Koreans put this missile test in Japanese territory and the U.N. objected to that, there started to be talk of sanctions. It's all part of a chain. I think it's -- it's all definitely connected in there.

But the best we can hope for -- and I think there is some hope -- is that a high level American -- Bill Richardson, perhaps with Vice President Gore. And by the way, my information is that both of them -- both Governor Richardson and Vice President Gore, former Vice President Gore -- have been cleared by the White House for travel to North Korea...

BEHAR: Oh, they have?

RATHER: So they could go almost immediately. They could go by private plane. It might not be announced in advance.

But once any kind of engagement is made with the North Koreans, particularly if we get the Chinese help, there's some hope that they may not be in prison very long. Let us hope not, because a labor prison in North Korea...

BEHAR: Oh my goodness.

RATHER: ...is about your ugliest nightmare.

BEHAR: It's like a concentration camp, I would assume, something very similar to, a hard labor camp and...

RATHER: Well, while I have been to North Korea, I've never seen one of these camps. But once you see what a strange -- and to any Westernized, in fact, almost in the eyes of anybody from another country -- it's a very strange, weird country. And, as I say, desperately poor. And there's no way that you can imagine a labor camp there that would be anything other than nightmarish.

BEHAR: Right.

OK. I want to remind you about "Dan Rather Reports" on HDNet tomorrow night. Dan has the first interview with former Guantanamo detainee Lakhdar Boumediene.

Did I say it right?

RATHER: Close. Boumediene.

BEHAR: Oh, Boumediene?

OK. Well, anyway, you said it.

(LAUGHTER)

BEHAR: He was held there for seven years and says he was tortured. See Dan's interview Tuesday.

Franklin Graham joins us after this.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: Obviously, we are deeply concerned about the length of the sentences and the fact that this trial was conducted totally in secret, with no observers. And we're engaged in all possible ways, through every possible channel, to secure their release. And we once again urge North Korea to grant their immediate release on humanitarian grounds. (END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Joy Behar sitting in for Larry tonight.

We're talking to Dan Rather and now Franklin Graham about the plight of Laura Ling and Euna Lee, sentenced to 12 years hard labor in North Korea.

Franklin -- may I call you Franklin or Dr. Graham?

FRANKLIN GRAHAM, PRESIDENT, SAMARITAN'S PURSE: You can call me Franklin, please, Joy.

BEHAR: OK, Franklin.

You traveled to North Korea.

Can you give us your impressions?

GRAHAM: Joy, this is, no question, a very difficult country. But it's also a country that wants to have a better relationship with us, I believe. They do want to talk to America. I think the six party talks -- all that was a good start, but they want to talk directly to us about the issues between the two countries.

Every time I'm in North Korea or I meet with North Korean people in this country, they -- they want to have discussions.

And I would encourage President Obama to do just that.

This -- this whole situation with these two girls is very unfortunate. You know, these two girls weren't going to Disneyland and they took a -- they took a wrong turn. They knew what they were doing. They knew the dangers and the risk involved. And, unfortunately, they got caught.

The real issue is really the missiles and the nuclear weapons. And we're off message right now. Our country is worried about these two girls -- and we should be. But we should be focusing on the real issue -- and that's these nuclear weapons.

There's got to be a way to negotiate with the North Koreans to back up and -- and walk away from this path. And the only way we're going to do that is to have a high level U.S. delegation in Pyongyang to meet face-to-face with the North Koreans. I don't know any other way to do it.

RATHER: Franklin -- Dr. Graham, Dan Rather.

GRAHAM: Yes, sir?

RATHER: What about the argument -- and I'm not suggesting this is my argument. What about the argument that says, listen, we've tried negotiating with the North Koreans and every time we tried the so- called, "soft approach," they do something that's a hard-line approach for them.

What about that argument?

GRAHAM: Well, I mean, there's no question. They have their points, too. They say we don't live up to all of our promises, Dan.

So I know it's a two-way street and there's a lot to go. And I'm not a -- I'm not a diplomat. I just believe that we've got to talk face-to-face.

And you can have a hard line with these people. They have stood up against the whole world. They don't care. And if thousands of people starve to death or a million people starve to death, it seems like this government, when they get backed up against the wall, they just get more entrenched in concrete, so to speak.

BEHAR: Do you think that they...

GRAHAM: And we've got to find a way to break this ice.

BEHAR: Do you think that they care about public opinion at all?

GRAHAM: No. They don't care about public opinion for one second.

BEHAR: No.

GRAHAM: They have their own -- their own agenda. But they -- they do want respect. And that's one thing I found. They feel that the world has looked down upon them, that we don't take them serious and, as a result, they feel like we treat them like second class citizens.

And we do need to treat these people with respect. We'd better treat them with respect. We need to listen to them. We need to talk to them. I'm not saying that we give in to their demands, but at least send Secretary of State Hillary Clinton or Ambassador Richardson or Governor Richardson. I have highest respect for both of these people. And I think they're excellent negotiators. But we need to have that kind of presence in that country right now.

BEHAR: OK. The families of Laura Ling and Euna Lee are shocked and devastated by the outcome of their trial. They released a statement today reacting to the sentence.

Part of it reads: "We ask the government of North Korea to show compassion and grant Laura and Euna clemency and allow them to return home to their families."

GRAHAM: I hope these kids -- these girls will come home soon. And, Joy, I really believe that they'll probably be home by Christmas.

BEHAR: You do?

GRAHAM: I think once this -- yes, I do. I think once this -- this story passes, the North Koreans will look for a way to negotiate them and let them come home. It's not going to serve their advantage to keep them in jail for -- for 12 years.

BEHAR: No, but how do you think they're being treated...

GRAHAM: So I really believe...

BEHAR: How do you think they're being treated right now?

I mean you say they won't be home until Christmas. That would even scare me if I was the family. I want them home yesterday.

GRAHAM: Well, these girls should have thought twice before they crossed the border. This isn't like coming into the United States. This is the most heavily guarded border in the world and it's going into one of the most dangerous countries in the world. And it's unfortunate that these two very nice girls got caught. But there are consequences to a person's actions.

And we need to be focusing about what the real issues are. And those are the nuclear weapons that they're developing. We have got to stay focused on that. And I think these girls -- we can talk quietly behind-the-scenes. And I think the secretary of State and the wonderful people in our Department of State can get these girls home, probably fairly quickly.

But we've got to talk about the real issues and those are those weapons.

BEHAR: OK.

Thank you.

Reality TV -- how real is it?

We're changing -- we're changing gears right now.

RATHER: Only you could handle that change, Joy.

BEHAR: Thank you, Dan.

And thank you, Franklin.

Reality TV -- how real is it?

Back in 60 seconds with Melissa Rivers, a real housewife of New York, and others.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Reality TV may be bigger than ever, but what -- what is the appeal, exactly?

Some have called it train wreck TV, for obvious reasons.

See for yourself why women in particular seem to be the focus of these kinds of shows.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're the most famous people in the world, so they want to try to be as famous as us. So eating bugs and doing all that stuff will maybe, they think, make them more famous.

But to us, it will just give us a stomach ache.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can you open the basement door, please, because there's too many people in here?

There's just too many.

I need a pack of size fives from the basement.

Could you get me one, please?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hey, why don't you put them in the back seat?

Listen, I have eyes everywhere. I can watch.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, yes. OK.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And then we can do things like this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm really not interested in sneering and superiority, because I'm natural in superiority.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I can only repeat what was told to me...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And I have been told that your money is all mafia money and I don't know...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excuse me?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ...I've never seen it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're a poker player. A poker player.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's tough.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's beyond white trash.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: OK. More from people who know the reality business from the inside. Melissa and Joan Rivers are among our reality guests.

It's ahead.

Stay tuned. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: We're getting real about reality TV. With us are Melissa Rivers, who was a contestant on the second season of "Celebrity Apprentice" and runner-up on the original season of "I'm A Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here."

Countess Luann de Lesseps is one of the stars of Bravo's "The Real Housewives of New York City."

And Jess Cagle is here. He's the managing editor of "Entertainment Weekly." Their cover story is all about reality TV.

OK. Heidi and Spencer -- hey, Melissa, Heidi and Spencer are saying they were tortured.

Do you think they were tortured?

MELISSA RIVERS, FORMER CONTESTANT, "CELEBRITY APPRENTICE": Oh, please. First of all, you know what you're signing up for. You know you're living in the jungle.

And, also, let's take a step into like real reality. They're not going to put you in any real serious danger. This is a major network show. And I don't think they're, you know, they're sitting up in the corporate tower worried that Heidi and Spencer are suddenly going to be the owners of NBC.

So let's just take a step back into -- you know, no. They weren't tortured. And you signed up for this. Like, I knew when I went to the rainforest in Australia, it wasn't going to be a good time. It's not a Four Seasons.

BEHAR: Why did you do that, anyway?

M. RIVERS: Why?

It was more like a celebrity survivor. And I was playing for charity.

BEHAR: Oh, you were playing for charity?

M. RIVERS: I won -- I won almost $100,000 for charity on -- in 14 days on that show, so.

BEHAR: But you seem to like these reality shows. You did "The Apprentice" show. It's another one. I mean you like them, don't you?

M. RIVERS: You know what, I like testing myself. I like pushing myself.

BEHAR: That's good.

M. RIVERS: You know, I like to see just how far I can go. And, also, again, when am I going to be able to raise $100,000 for a charity of my choice any other way? BEHAR: That's true.

M. RIVERS: You know, and to me, that's an easy giveback.

BEHAR: I think that there's a lot of bad behavior on these shows. They seem to -- the worst the behavior, the more people seem to like it, the more they watch.

Am I right?

M. RIVERS: Absolutely. I mean the Heidi and Spencer thing, as far as I'm concerned, it's just -- it's gone too far and it just simply makes me yawn because the...

BEHAR: But don't you think they do it for the attention, also?

The worse they behave, the more camera and face time that they get?

M. RIVERS: Absolutely. I was reading something -- and it may have been "Entertainment Weekly" -- I'm not sure which magazine it was -- where they were talking about, though, the sad thing of it is they keep quitting and coming back. The only people getting hurt now, at this point, are their charity, because they won't win, they won't make the money for their charity. And that's lousy.

But they are getting a lot of attention.

But, again, it's -- is any attention good or only good attention or bad attention?

I mean that's a whole thing for my therapist, anyway.

BEHAR: Countess?

COUNTESS LUANN DE LESSEPS, STAR, "THE REAL HOUSEWIVES OF NEW YORK CITY": Yes?

BEHAR: My little countess, Contessa.

DE LESSEPS: Thank you.

Hi, Joy.

OK. Why are you a contessa, exactly?

Your husband is a count?

DE LESSEPS: My husband is a French aristocrat. They built the Suez Canal and the Panama Canal. And they actually gave the Statue of Liberty to this country.

BEHAR: Really?

DE LESSEPS: Yes.

BEHAR: Single-handedly?

DE LESSEPS: Single-handedly, where they handed it over. Somebody had to.

BEHAR: But why does a countess need to do reality TV -- or want to?

DE LESSEPS: Well, you know, I worked in television before I did this show. So I worked in Italian television. I've lived in Europe since 1990.

BEHAR: Oh.

DE LESSEPS: So I worked on an Italian soccer show. And then I came back to the States and started the countess report, which is a local cable show in The Hamptons.

And so when this opportunity came along, I saw it as a challenge and something that I had never done that I really wanted to try.

BEHAR: Yes.

DE LESSEPS: And I, you know, and I think it's great fun working with the girls. They're a little crazy, but that's what we love about them. And, you know, it's great to work with an ensemble cast like that.

BEHAR: But your kids are on the show, also?

DE LESSEPS: The kids are on the show, but they're not the focus of the show.

BEHAR: They're twins.

DE LESSEPS: My kids -- you know, it's called "The Real Housewives." It's about my life. It's not about -- it's not, you know, the same as, you know, this couple who have eight children, Jon and Kate. It's different. Because that focuses, really, on their life as a family.

BEHAR: Right.

DE LESSEPS: This focuses on many things, which is one part of my life is being a mom. Now, I -- the kids aren't that much on the show. I just -- I...

BEHAR: Did they want to -- did they want to be on it?

DE LESSEPS: Yes, they wanted to be on the show. It was a family decision that we made together. And we talked about it. And my husband loves me so much he even agreed to do a reality show. So you can imagine.

BEHAR: Really? I mean if you...

DE LESSEPS: Well, now -- you know, now everybody knows we're -- we're getting divorced and that didn't work out. But it's not what caused...

BEHAR: Tell me -- tell me what happened?

DE LESSEPS: It's not what caused the divorce. I mean...

BEHAR: What happened with that?

DE LESSEPS: Well, what happened with that is that, you know, things weren't going well. And -- and so, you know, unfortunately, I live on a reality show, so everybody knew about it. And then of course the press got a hold of it and what happened is that, you know, things weren't working out. We had separated. And then he met somebody else.

BEHAR: On TV?

DE LESSEPS: No.

BEHAR: Not on TV?

DE LESSEPS: Not on TV. This was in the press.

BEHAR: OK.

DE LESSEPS: It was never on the show.

BEHAR: I see.

DE LESSEPS: No. In fact...

BEHAR: So you separated and didn't he send you something -- an e-mail or something -- while you were on the show?

DE LESSEPS: Well, have...

BEHAR: So it was very public what happened.

DE LESSEPS: It was very public...

BEHAR: Yes.

DE LESSEPS: ...because, you know, I think "New York Social Diary" got a hold of it. And then it came out in "The Post" that -- that he was having an affair and he sent me an e-mail. He wanted me to be the first to know before anybody else found out.

So, because, you know, he knew that I would.

BEHAR: So what happened...

DE LESSEPS: So he wanted to tell me first.

BEHAR: Yes, OK.

DE LESSEPS: Which was, you know, an e-mail. It was, you know, quite shocking, but... BEHAR: That certainly is.

DE LESSEPS: Yes.

BEHAR: Reality show winner Joan Rivers is here.

What's her advice for Jon and Kate?

Find out next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: OK, what is the deal with reality TV?

Our next guest knows. Comic, author, businesswoman and winner of "Celebrity Apprentice," Joan Rivers is here. And Joan is hosting the upcoming show, "How Did You Get So Rich?"

That's a really interesting title.

JOAN RIVERS, HOST, "HOW'D YOU GET SO RICH?": August 6th, 9:00 p.m. Just spit it out. TV Land.

BEHAR: Is it -- though, "How'd You Get So Rich?" is your new show?

J. RIVERS: Yes. Brand new show.

BEHAR: All about people who can make a lot of money?

J. RIVERS: All that -- people who have made it the good old hard American way -- from nothing. It's an amazing show.

BEHAR: Like -- sort of like Sarah Palinish?

J. RIVERS: Well, no, she made it, God knows, not on brains. But...

(LAUGHTER)

J. RIVERS: People that make...

BEHAR: But in this economy, Joan, isn't that a little bit -- what do you think about it?

RIVERS: Totally. It's about -- oh, I can't. These are people -- one man started working at 7:00 mowing lawns. Another man started at 11:00, didn't have water in his house. They had ideas and they had work ethic and they had the American dream. Amazing show.

BEHAR: Started at seven to mow lawn?

RIVERS: Seven.

BEHAR: A little young.

RIVERS: What are your kids doing tonight?

BEHAR: Nothing. Was the fix in on "Celebrity Apprentice."

RIVERS: The fix was really -- I didn't sleep with Donald.

BEHAR: No, you didn't?

RIVERS: That was the deal. If I don't sleep with you, can I win? Yes.

BEHAR: There were rumors, you know, the fix was in and you were going to win anyway.

RIVERS: For god sakes, literally, we did not know until he decided. And someone said it was because Ivanka said you're a role model. It was that close. It was Donny and Ivanka and Donald Trump. No --

BEHAR: I watched the last part because --

RIVERS: It was something.

BEHAR: You were really mad.

RIVERS: Yes, I was angry.

BEHAR: Was that real for you? Was that Joan?

RIVERS: It was probably the last truth you ever see on reality television, because I think part of the stupidity that's happening now is because I really was mad and I really -- and it shows and it's the truth. That makes great reality television.

BEHAR: Let's look at it. You got pretty fired up. Let's take a look on "Celebrity Apprentice."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RIVERS: I have lived my life with honor and I live my life. Everybody I work with has come back. I have people -- left my employee --

DONALD TRUMP, "CELEBRITY APPRENTICE": Do you think that did not happen, Joan?

RIVERS: I do not believe for a second. I had a fight with him and she had -- and the other people came and showed me.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Can I --

RIVERS: No, you cannot, sir. You cannot. This is an out and out lie and I will not have this on television. And I will not be berated by this character here.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not berating you.

RIVERS: Oh, stop it. How dare you?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BEHAR: You make great television.

RIVERS: That's real. Annie Douche.

BEHAR: You couldn't stand that girl, could you?

RIVERS: You know me, how many years?

BEHAR: A long time.

RIVERS: Tell me the truth and we'll go from truth. She plays life like she plays poker. When you get up on the table, you start flying, start being duplicitous.

BEHAR: Looking back, you gave yourself a lot of Ajeda (ph). Don't you want to be calmer in that situation?

RIVERS: Of course you want to be calm. I didn't go into it to be dramatic. But you're five, six weeks working, and you're 5:30 in the morning to 11:00 at night. You're tired.

BEHAR: Why did you do it? You have such a big career all the time.

RIVERS: Yes, a big career. I'm 75 years old playing to gays and drunks. What are you talking about?

BEHAR: Must you keep telling your age on television?

RIVERS: Because they do it for me. Melissa added a year. I haven't forgiven her.

BEHAR: I mean, we do stand up. You and I work together. We do stand up. You always have a one-woman show. You have this other show coming up.

RIVERS: Comedy Central August 9th, too.

BEHAR: You're always busy.

RIVERS: Always busy. Thank god.

BEHAR: What did you do this for?

RIVERS: I wanted to see two things. Truly, one, is my charity. My charity made 500,000 dollars.

BEHAR: That's nice. That's true. That was Melissa's motivation, she said, too, to make money for the charity.

RIVERS: Second was Melissa got to live with me in New York for six weeks.

BEHAR: Oh.

RIVERS: And third, I loved seeing what I could do. You know?

BEHAR: You were intrigued by the business aspect?

RIVERS: They come to you and say, you've got 24 hours to make a meal and sell it and get it ready and give us a presentation. Go.

BEHAR: When did you ever make a meal for Carl? Did you ever make a meal?

RIVERS: Are you out of your mind? If God wanted me to cook, my hands would be aluminum.

BEHAR: So what's the fakest thing you've ever seen on reality TV?

RIVERS: All this nonsense now, what it is, Heidi and --

(CROSS TALK)

RIVERS: They're prisoners.

BEHAR: And they're being tortured now.

RIVERS: We should exchange them for the other girls.

BEHAR: I think watching them we're tortured.

RIVERS: You want torture, have a Brazilian wax. I will give you torture. I find that you can't lie. Reality television, you can't make it up because these people are amateurs and don't now how to act it. So I think that's ridiculous.

BEHAR: Did you see what happened to Susan Boyle, how she had the mini breakdown, dropping the F-bomb? That was sad.

RIVERS: Also she wasn't exactly -- I loved when they said they didn't know she had a great voice. She's standing there with the one eyebrow and suddenly a 64-piece orchestra comes up behind her. I think there were a couple rehearsals there.

BEHAR: Do you think Simon knew it?

RIVERS: Of course.

BEHAR: He looked shocked.

RIVERS: Sixty four piece orchestra. They didn't noticed.

BEHAR: Over her head in a way. The poor thing.

RIVERS: I felt so sorry for her because a lot of these people think it's going to be so easy. I should have dinner with Kathy Griffin, who I adore, very good friend. We always say, people don't know how difficult this business is and the problems. Poor Susan Boyle, they made her hot, which was so sad. They put her in a leather jacket and they tweezed her eyebrows.

BEHAR: What she needed was to pluck those brows.

RIVERS: She needed a lot more than that.

BEHAR: She was like a child in a way. I thought, you know, it's like you don't put a child in that position, why put her? It's the same thing. She'll be OK.

RIVERS: She's already got an album. She's got more than you and I have. We're on Larry King as guests. She's got an album.

BEHAR: What do we have? Our reality roundup continues with Jon and Kate talk. Why so much hate? It's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: OK, we're back. Joan, let me ask you, before we go to these other lovely people, what about Jon and Kate? Do you feel they're in trouble or what? People hate them.

RIVERS: The whole stupidity of this thing, the whole thing, you've got the boost. They've all becomes celebrities. You know what I'm saying?

BEHAR: The kids are going to suffer, the marriage is on the rocks. It's a mess.

RIVERS: Eight children. Stay home, you dumb bitch, and take care of your children.

BEHAR: That's how they got the eight children by staying home.

RIVERS: There are eight children there. Stay home. You don't get a tummy tuck, new breasts and pose in a bikini.

BEHAR: Yes.

RIVERS: You stay home and take care of your children.

DE LESSEPS: I think you have to have really daring to put eight kids out there on television and try to run -- it's very hard to manage that all in the general public.

BEHAR: Just as a general note, don't you think this reality TV thing, if it continues, is killing scripted television? It's so inexpensive to run these shows.

JESS CAGLE, "ENTERTAINMENT WEEKLY": It's so inexpensive. Once they're done, they're done. You can't sell it on DVD and put it on reruns, all of that, like "Sex and the City." It's a short sighted business model. If you look at the top-ten shows right now, despite all the reality out there, only one of them, "So You Think You Can Dance," is a reality show. NCIS, CSI, the Mentalist --

I don't think the scripted television is going away. But I think it is harder to get it on because you can produce this other stuff a lot cheaper.

RIVERS: Are the competitive shows lasting? You know what I'm saying? It's not just what's happening. It's also who's going to win the dance contest? So, there's another layer going there.

BEHAR: Those are better.

(CROSS TALK)

DE LESSEPS: The elimination shows where people go, oh my god, she got kicked off. There's something there that, of course, draws people to it.

BEHAR: Melissa wants to chime in. Go ahead, Melissa.

MELISSA RIVERS, "CELEBRITY APPRENTICE": Also what's interesting is a lot of the very high-end reality shows are almost as expensive as the scripted shows, but they seem to create more water cooler moments, because it's almost like we become invested in real people's lives. We're gossiping across the picket fence.

BEHAR: Yes.

M. RIVERS: Like you would do with your neighbors when it used to be a bigger sense of community.

BEHAR: I also notice that women are portrayed -- either they're bitches or bimbos or they're mean or they're nasty.

M. RIVERS: Kind of like living in L.A.

RIVERS: It's all bad behaviors. If I want to sit and watch boring, stay in my living room. You know what I'm saying? You want to see people blow up and you want to see people --

DE LESSEPS: You want to see drama. But I think there is room also to set a good example for people. I think people can be inspirational.

(CROSS TALK)

DE LESSEPS: How did you get so rich? That's why you cast these shows. These shows are cast. They look for certain personalities. Like you would actors, but they're actually real people.

BEHAR: Are they really real?

DE LESSEPS: I'm totally real on the show.

BEHAR: The producers will say do this. I mean, also the other day, I was watching this "Celebrity, Get Me Out of Here" thing. What's his name? Lou Diamond, what's his face? I can't remember.

CAGLE: "La Bamba."

BEHAR: I think he's such a wonderful actor. He did "The King and I." He is in "La Bamba." Why is he doing that show, sticking his hand and getting bitten by rats. What's possessing him to do that?

RIVERS: -- on that show, the original one. They stick your hand in. Believe me, you're not going to get bitten by a rat.

(CROSS TALK)

BEHAR: They were real rats, Joan.

RIVERS: Then they were rats that didn't have teeth. I don't know. They're not going to let a celebrity get bitten by a rat.

(CROSS TALK)

RIVERS: Let's face it, they're not going to put you in danger where you're going to die, and you're going to sue NBC. That's ridiculous.

DE LESSEPS: If you put yourself out there for that kind of show, you know you have to expect to be bitten by a rat.

M. RIVERS: Wait, wait, wait. Remember, I did the show. I --

BEHAR: Melissa's trying to tell us she actually did that show.

M. RIVERS: No, I actually did do that show. Yes, you do sign your life away. On the other hand, you know, everyone who's going into it is also a professional. There's a mindset you have, you're going to get bitten. You come home with bug bites.

RIVERS: They haven't given me an earpiece because they wouldn't give me a clean one. I don't know what she's saying. I asked for a clean ear pieces.

CAGLE: She said she got bug bites.

RIVERS: Yes.

CAGLE: She got bitten.

M. RIVERS: Can I finish my -- mom, quit talking. Mom, mom, mom --

BEHAR: She's fighting with you from Los Angeles. She's saying mom, stop talking.

M. RIVERS: But she's not listening. So it's perfect. You know what, it's just like my -- this is a little slice of reality TV.

(CROSS TALK)

BEHAR: I understand what she means. Getting bitten by a bug --

(CROSS TALK)

M. RIVERS: It doesn't put you in harms way.

RIVERS: Shows are not stupid.

M. RIVERS: It's controlled chaos. It's controlled chaos is what it is. You know that you are not going to die. Again, I'm talking and my mom's not listening. It's so, like, normal.

BEHAR: She's saying she's talking and you're not listening.

(CROSS TALK)

M. RIVERS: They didn't get her a clean ear pieces, so she can't even handle listening to you.

BEHAR: What do you think is the future of reality TV? Is it going to go away?

CAGLE: No, no, no, not at all. Reality TV will always be with us. I think it will go lower and lower and lower.

BEHAR: How much lower can it go?

CAGLE: There's been defecation, everything you can imagine. You really get way up there on cable, and you will see, like, the most insane stuff. But I don't think it's going to replace scripted TV.

BEHAR: No. What about the octo-Mom? Isn't she getting one? I think she's getting one.

CAGLE: Of course, of course.

BEHAR: Do you think some of these women are getting implanted with all these fetuses so they can have a reality show?

DE LESSEPS: Do you think they would take it that far, have multiple children to have their own reality show?

RIVERS: Seriously, don't you think -- Octo-Mom, again, this is despicable if they give her a show. This is a woman who is a loony tune, allegedly. This is a woman -- you're rewarding bad behavior. You're rewarding insane behavior.

BEHAR: I know, but don't you feel sorry for her a little bit?

RIVERS: No, I feel sorry for those children. Tragically -- it's like the old woman who lived in the shoe.

DE LESSEPS: I think she should take a hint from Jon and Kate.

RIVERS: I think she should have her tubes tied. I'm sorry.

BEHAR: She should have her tubes tied?

RIVERS: And the doctors should have had his license revoked.

BEHAR: I think the doctor should have his tubes ties.

Melissa, do you have anything else to add to this conversation before we go?

M. RIVERS: That, you know, again, I don't --

Blah, blah, blah.

My mom's hair looks nice today.

BEHAR: All right, you know what, we have coming up a serious story. After you people leave, David Carradine's bizarre death.

RIVERS: Oh, god.

BEHAR: I know. We'll talk about the shocking turn of events in Thailand over the weekend in 60 seconds. Joan just handed me this.

DE LESSEPS: Where's mine?

BEHAR: We have this book. Go out and buy these books. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(NEWS BREAK)

BEHAR: Joining us now with more on David Carradine's death are Dr. Cyril Wecht, forensic pathologist and attorney, and Dr. Robi Ludwig, psychotherapist and best selling author.

But first, let's hear from Marina Anderson, who was David Carradine's fourth wife. She is with us on the phone from Los Angeles. You were David Carradine's fourth wife. When were you married to him and for how long?

MARINA ANDERSON, DAVID CARRADINE'S FOURTH WIFE: We were together from 1995 to 2001. We got married February 20, 1998.

BEHAR: You are quoted in divorce documents saying David had potentially dangerous sex habits. Can you explain that?

ANDERSON: I don't elaborate. I have told the press I would not elaborate, but I stand by my document, definitely.

BEHAR: You said he had, quote, deviant sexual behavior which was potentially deadly. Plus, you alleged Carradine engaged in an incestuous relationship with a very close family member. What were you talking about?

ANDERSON: That is what the document says. It is pretty clear what the document is saying.

BEHAR: That is quite an accusation.

ANDERSON: I stand by my document.

BEHAR: You do?

ANDERSON: Yes, I do.

BEHAR: Can you identify who you are talking about?

ANDERSON: I could, but I'm not. Now certainly would not be the time. He is an ex-husband. I have major feelings for the man, and do respect that he just died, and very suddenly and very shockingly. I don't think now is the time to come out with anything like that, certainly.

BEHAR: Well, people talk about him being tied up in this situation. And it is possible that it was an accident, a suicide. Did David like to tie himself up? Was he into some kind of S&M thing or what?

ANDERSON: Going online and seeing things and the pictures and things like that, I'm just horrified. But like I said, I hold by my documents. I can't say that I'm really surprised at the scenario. But whether it is foul play, whether it is accidental, who knows until they get all this information in. I definitely do not believe he committed suicide.

BEHAR: You don't?

ANDERSON: That I'm really sure of. Yes.

BEHAR: They are saying that he may have accidentally suffocated while he was engaged in auto-erotic asphyxia.

ANDERSON: That can happen if the person is doing that. That can happen.

BEHAR: Is it your recollection that he was into that thing?

ANDERSON: I will not detail it. I will hold to that. I will not detail. There are so many wonderful things to say about the man right now. I know everyone wants the details. I know another ex-wife has been spilling the beans to the news. I don't feel right doing that.

BEHAR: Gail Jensen was his third ex-wife. She says, quote, "David was pretty strange. He liked to be tied up. He could tie himself up. He spent days planning a different feature. He would go to a hardware store and buy the stuff." Do you know her? Does that sound like David?

ANDERSON: I know Gail, sure.

BEHAR: Does that sound like him?

ANDERSON: I'm going to keep holding to my document. When we separated, I started writing notes to help with my own healing and recovery, shall we say, and went through counseling, spiritual and conventional. That turned into a book that I'm hoping will help other people. I do recount my experiences and, even to this day, what I'm healing from.

And I just, like I said, out of respect of the -- this incident, I just cannot do that at this point.

BEHAR: OK.

Friends and family say David would not have killed himself. Is that indicator enough to rule out suicide? Find out next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BEHAR: Dr. Wecht, tell us what the autopsies are going to be able to tell us? Go ahead.

DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Based on what I've seen and read, this is a classical case of auto-erotic asphyxiation. It has the hallmark features that you find. The body is not suspended. The feet, in fact part of the calves, are on the floor. The binding phenomena around the neck, the genitalia, the hands are tied. The body is nude. There has been report there might have been an article of feminine attire.

This is absolutely an accidental death, as far as I'm concerned. It is auto-erotic asphyxiation. It is the kind of thing that we see in forensic pathology not frequently. It occurred 99.9 percent of the time with men, all ages from teenage into the 80s.

BEHAR: Mostly men?

DR. ROBI LUDWIG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Yes, mostly men.

BEHAR: It's men who do this?

WECHT: Overwhelmingly.

LUDWIG: Occasionally women. But really, it is a sexual paraphilia. It's a form of sexual masochism really, where you are flirting with death. But really, the people who engage in this, they experience more of a high when they cut off the oxygen to their brain. So the orgasm feels that much more intense. But they do flirt with danger and death. That is probably another psychological component, because you can die from this. People who do it know that and perhaps get off on that a little bit.

BEHAR: It sounds very dangerous. Do teenagers do this? Do we have to worry about kids with this?

LUDWIG: Yes. Certainly, the age range is anywhere from 20 to people in their 70s. It tends to -- this kind of sexual paraphilia and sexual masochism can present itself when kids are in their 20s and they start experimenting.

BEHAR: People who knew David, who knew him, they say they are ruling out suicide.

LUDWIG: It sounds, from what we're hearing, as we hear more of the sexual information, that he didn't want to hang himself to kill himself. That was not the intent. It was a byproduct of losing control. BEHAR: Would someone like this be interested in S&M?

LUDWIG: Certainly, they can be interested in S&M. In some cases, they have another partner who plots this out. They really rely on the other partner to save them. Sometimes that partner fails them or just can't do it.

BEHAR: Do you think he was alone though?

LUDWIG: It is not clear. I would need to hear more information.

BEHAR: Dr. Wecht, do you think he was alone?

WECHT: Yes, I believe he was. What happens is, in the attempt to achieve this state of heightened eroticism --

BEHAR: I've got to go, Dr. Wecht. Thank you very much, all of you. I want to remind you that Larry's book is a big best seller. Check out his memoir, "My Remarkable Journey" at bookstores everywhere. Thank you for letting me sit in, Larry. Time for "Anderson Cooper 360."