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Shooting at U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum
Aired June 10, 2009 - 15:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: We have got much more ahead with Rick Sanchez. He takes it from here.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Thanks so much, Kyra.
In fact, we expect that there's going to be new developments in this story. That is why we have mobilized our entire operation out of Washington, D.C., as well as, as you can see right here behind me, in the headquarters of CNN in Atlanta.
You are going to see from time to time editors bringing me information as it comes in. We're also going to be joining Mike Brooks. Mike Brooks, as you probably know from following our newscast, has worked as a detective in Washington, D.C.
The Southern Poverty Law Center, which usually makes at least a weekly appearance on our newscast, we have been in contact them, with Mark Potok and Heidi, who you were just talking to a little while ago. They have got some information to share with us.
And we have really -- as this story develops during this hour, and as the story about a crime in another American city starts looking like another crime based on nothing else but hate, which is a very, very large possibility at this point, we will begin to focus our attention on who this suspect possibly is and what his motives actually were.
In fact, let's start there.
Drew Griffin has been already since we learned of this story drilling down on this suspect, James Von Brunn, 88 years old with ties to white supremacist group.
We want to know more about him, Drew. What have you found?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Well, first, let's just lay the journalism out on the table, Rick.
Two law enforcement sources in Washington, D.C., telling CNN that this is the man, Von Brunn, we have been talking about. If it is the same Von Brunn who is well-known to a lot of anti-hate groups, then he, indeed, has a long, long track record, including convictions, felony convictions, as you said.
He even wrote a book, if it's the same person, "Kill the Best Gentiles," which is kind of his view of the world, how Jews actually tore apart modern-day world, a lot of hate. And back in -- you say, in 1983, he was convicted trying to kidnap members of the Federal Reserve.
So, this is his -- not his first time in Washington, D.C., with guns. And -- and he was brought in and sentenced to four years in prison. We are not sure at this point how much he served. But he is very, very well-known by anti-hate groups.
We had the group on from Alabama talking. And what is surprising -- and I will let you go on to your other guests after this, though is what will be surprising for a lot of people to learn is these Holocaust museums across the -- across the country and across the world, they are not just places where people go to mourn and remember those killed in the Holocaust.
A lot of these neo-Nazis go there to look at the memorabilia. There's a lot of people that go there very interested for different reasons in these museums and are often found there looking at and -- and even marveling in the displays that were -- that show Nazi memorabilia or what was done to the Jews. They think in their minds what was done to the Jews was right.
SANCHEZ: Does this guy think that? Does he believe that?
GRIFFIN: Again, if it is the same guy, he absolutely believes that. They believe that Hitler's biggest mistake was not finishing the job. Quite frankly, that's what they believe.
And -- and they don't like any kind of memorials to Holocaust victims. They like memorials to Hitler.
SANCHEZ: Wow. Drew Griffin.
Drew, stay with us.
I want to bring Mike Brooks into this. And before we take it to Mike, I also want to share with our viewers who are perhaps joining us now -- maybe you are just now getting home from work. You're turning on CNN.
There is a major developing story that we are following from our nation's capital. About 1:00, a man walked into the Holocaust Museum in Washington, D.C. And I think you might be able to see some of the pictures that we are sharing with you now.
These are some of the cars set up outside. We also actually have pictures. And I don't -- I don't know, Dan, if you are going to be able to pop that up, but stay with me here. We also actually have pictures of the scene at the hospital just as the guard who was shot and the suspect arrived.
And we have pictures, video of the suspect arriving at the scene. And there it is now. Apparently, and according to witnesses, the suspect was shot after another guard returned fire. He apparently walked into the Holocaust Museum, and he shot at a guard, according to police.
Another guard, maybe two, then returned fire and downed him. There he is right now. He is described again as being 88 years old. You see him going into the hospital.
Ed -- I understand Ed Henry is following the story. He has been there for the last hour or so trying to pick up some information as well.
Ed, what do you got?
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Rick, you are absolutely right.
Essentially, what we have learned from law enforcement and the mayor here, Adrian Fenty, is that at about 12:50 p.m. Eastern time here at the Holocaust Museum, the suspect walked in with what's described as a rifle and that it was visible when he walked in, and right near the X- ray machines, magnetometers, he was met by a security guard.
And there was an exchange of fire. We have been told by eyewitnesses inside the Holocaust Museum, which is just behind me, that there were five gunshots total. That would be the combination of the suspect's original shot or shots at the security officer and then the return fire from security personnel.
They have their own security force that's trained here at the Holocaust Museum. The eyewitnesses described a really chaotic scene. They said people were screaming, people were ducking for cover. There were security officers yelling at the suspect to put his weapon down.
And, specifically, we were told by one 19-year-old witness, Maria, who -- who is local here -- she had -- was here with relatives from Puerto Rico visiting the museum. She said she saw the security officer bleeding face-down on the ground bleeding profusely, and that it appeared that he bleeding from the back.
And she said that he looked like he was in terrible shape. We also heard from officials here that the security guard was in grave condition, even though we haven't gotten the name of that person yet.
We asked specifically -- I did -- asked these officials at this press conference a few moments ago whether or not they believe the Holocaust Museum was targeted. And they say they do not have that information yet. They would not confirm James W. Von Brunn as a suspect either, even though Drew has independently confirmed that.
Obviously, it is still very, very early in this investigation, Rick. And just real quick, I will have Giaco Riggs, our photojournalist, show and pan in exactly what we are talking about. We are standing in the middle of 14th Street in downtown Washington, D.C.
Where the American flag is, just beyond that construction, that's the Holocaust Museum. And around 12:50, 1:00 p.m. Eastern time, I was at the White House with Giaco. And we got the call saying that there had been gunshots here at the Holocaust.
The White House of course just beyond the Washington Monument, it's just a few blocks away. We jumped in a cab, raced over. And I can tell you, during that entire cab ride, there were sirens blaring from every direction here in Washington, various law enforcement responding, ambulances responding. They were on the scene very quickly, Rick.
SANCHEZ: All right, Ed Henry following that situation for us, as you can see, he is one of those who was first at the scene reporting as some of the information came in.
He mentioned a couple of -- a couple of interviews that we have shown. We are going to repeat a couple of those for you in just a little bit, including victims or people, visitors, tourists who were inside the Holocaust Museum at the time that this happened who described hearing the shots ring out, hiding, and then being told to suddenly make a run for it.
They used the word sprint when they were asked to get out of the building.
I want to check in with Rick real quick here.
Hey, Rick Martin (ph), you mind if I ask you a question? I heard you talking just a little while ago about the possibility that we might be getting more information on this suspect. Are -- are there any plans to go to his house and maybe get some information from that, that you can report?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a matter of fact, yes. We have a couple of our affiliates responding to his house, to his home.
SANCHEZ: Right there in Washington?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Actually in Maryland, the state of Maryland.
SANCHEZ: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For comprehensive reasons, I am reluctant to give an exact address right now. But we are gathering facts and information about the suspect's home, where he lives.
SANCHEZ: And I understand we are going to be hearing from somebody at 3:30. Is there a news conference coming in the next 20 minutes or so?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As a matter of fact, we are going to be hearing from one of our affiliate reporters, WJLA, Kris Van Cleave, who is going to be reporting the latest details from George Washington Hospital.
One of the -- the director of marketing for the hospital there held a news conference a short time ago. And we expect this reporter to give us the latest details regarding the conditions and the status of...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes.
Rick Martin, handling our national desk here, we thank you for that information. As it comes in, better to be here than there, where Mike Brooks is standing by. He is going to bring us up to date on what's going on as well. Mike, let me ask you this question. A lot of people are going to be wondering how this man, if there was so much security -- and you would there would be a lot of security at the Holocaust Museum, of all places...
MIKE BROOKS, CNN SECURITY ANALYST: Oh, there is.
SANCHEZ: ... how he was able to actually get through the -- the magnetometers, if in -- if he did. Do we know?
BROOKS: Well, what we're hearing -- what I am hearing from sources is that the shooting took place right by the magnetometers.
Now, there were some witnesses that -- that Ed talked to a little bit earlier as this thing was developing who said they thought they heard shots on the second floor.
Well, what I am hearing is -- and we heard the U.S. Park Police spokesperson say -- is, it took place right by the magnetometer as they go through the door.
Now, Rick, a lot of the security guard -- this is a contract security company. But a lot of these officers, these security officers, are retired Metropolitan Police and U.S. Park Police officers. So, you know, I don't know if -- if the officer who was shot was a retired officer or not.
You know, we will probably find that out as -- as things go along. But we are talking about this guy Von Brunn. I can tell you, back when they first dedicated the -- the Holocaust Memorial Museum, you had William -- we heard about William Pierce just moments ago from the woman from the Southern Poverty Law Center, that this guy was probably a follower of William Pierce with the National Alliance.
You had all the who's-who, if you will, white supremacist world that protesting the opening of this museum back the early '90s. I was there watching the demonstrations and helping with the security there. And you had folks from the Aryan Nations. You had folks with the skinhead groups, the Covenant, Sword, and the Arm of the Lord.
You name it, they were there protesting this.
SANCHEZ: But -- but why is it catalyzing now? What is it about this shooting?
And it would be -- it would not be proper for us to not include this with a series of shootings that we have seen in the last week-and-a- half, right, Scott Roeder's shooting of -- or alleged shooting of Dr. George Tiller, Abdulhakim Mujahid Muhammad shooting and killing William Long.
And now you add this. Is it starting to become a trend? And is it something where, in each and every case, you can point to hate as a motive?
BROOKS: I think you can look at hate as a motive, but don't know if you can take all three of these shootings and lump them all together.
You know, we talked the other day, Rick. You and I were talking about one of the things that me as a former investigator and what law enforcement really are concerned with right now are the lone wolves.
SANCHEZ: Well, this is -- but this is domestic terrorism, is it not?
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: You and I have -- you and I have covered these stories together.
BROOKS: Yes.
SANCHEZ: We have traveled around the country. This is, by definition, domestic terrorism, whether some folks like that word or not. Is that not what we're talking about?
BROOKS: You know what? If you look at the FBI definition of terrorism, the unlawful use of force of violence to intimidate or coerce a government, civilian population or any segment thereof in the furtherance of political or social objectives, and if he is part of a hate group or is just a lone wolf, just filled with hates against Jews and blacks, yes.
And that's why, Rick, they're on the scene right now. You have the Washington field office, the FBI Washington field office, domestic Joint Terrorism Task Force that is there working this investigation. And I guarantee you, right as we speak, leads are being sent to the Annapolis office. And they are probably putting together a search warrant to search this guy's house down in Maryland to find out exactly if what the other -- if there was any other motivation other than hate that was involved in this.
SANCHEZ: Well, you know what? A lot of folks are going to be talking about a lot of angry rhetoric that they have been hearing in this country over the last several months. That is going to be coming up in our conversation that I'm going to have with Mark Potok. He is going to be joining us in just a little bit.
We're also going to be joining civil rights attorneys who are going to be taking us through this discussion as well.
And for those of you who are just now getting home and joining us, there has been a very important story that's taking place and still developing right now in our nation's capital. It has occurred at the Holocaust Museum, where a man, about 1:00, walked in with a long gun described as either a shotgun or a rifle, shot a guard, according to police, and then other guards returned fire.
The story is still developing. You hear the ambulances and the police sirens in the background. We are going to take a short break, get it in as fast as we can, then come back. And, again, as you heard from Rick Martin, my colleague, behind me moments ago, we are expecting a news conference. We will bring you that as well.
I am Rick Sanchez. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Let's get you right back to the scene in Washington, D.C.
As you can see, there is a lot of commotion here in the CNN newsroom. We are working on this story now, and we're also working it obviously from Washington, D.C.
In case you haven't heard, there has been a story that is still developing in Washington, D.C. A man said to be, by the way, a white supremacist named James Von Brunn, 88 years old, apparently shot a guard after going into the Holocaust Museum. And then other guards returned fire.
As you can see the video that is coming in now, many police officers and special forces unit have responded to the scene there.
Let's do this. I want to let you hear what was said by one of the witnesses who was in the area. Remember, when this happened, there were people, visitors, inside the Holocaust Museum, who had to, in their own words, hide and then make a run for it.
They heard the shooting and have described it to our own reporters. This is one of the folks we talked to. Her name is Maria.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARIA, EYEWITNESS: We were in the remember the children exhibit. We were just exhibiting. And we heard shooting. I ran towards the glass doors to see what was going on. I thought it was a joke or something.
And there I could see a security man pull out his gun and shoot towards the shooter. I also saw another security man lay flat on his belly. There was blood everywhere. So, I didn't actually see him getting shot, but I saw that he was badly hurt. He did get shot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, have we got -- have we got Mark Potok on the phone?
Mark Potok, as far as we have been able to tell, at least as a correspondent working here at CNN, I have relied on him many, many times to give me information on who these white supremacists are, and not just white supremacists, but all types of hate groups throughout the country.
We understand that he is now on the phone, will be joining us shortly.
Let's take a quick break. Let's get the line set up, because Potok on this particular subject is someone we should listen to. And we will.
Stay right there. I'm Rick Sanchez. We will be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We are right in the thick of things here in the middle of the CNN newsroom at the world headquarters in Atlanta. I am just overhearing some news -- Hank (ph), if you would, handling our national desk here -- that there is going to be a news conference at the hospital any moment now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's what we are hearing, any time now. We have got a CNN signal up on a receiver coming into Atlanta. We have also got affiliate signals up as well. We think it will be the marketing, public-relations person for G.W. Hospital.
SANCHEZ: To tell us about the conditions of both the suspect and the victims?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We hope so, any of the latest that they will be willing to share with the media.
SANCHEZ: And, so far, they are saying one or two victims in this case?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have heard two. We have heard that two were transported to George Washington Hospital. So -- and we have -- we have been told by two sources that one of those is the shooter. So, we are hoping for some sort of update on their condition.
SANCHEZ: All right, thanks, Hank. Appreciate it.
All right, let's do this now. We have been promising that we would be able to go to Mark Potok, who probably knows as much about this subject as anyone in the country. He's part of the Southern Poverty Law Center there in Montgomery, Alabama.
Mark, are you there? Are you with us?
MARK POTOK, SOUTHERN POVERTY LAW CENTER: I am here, Rick.
SANCHEZ: What can you tell us about James Von Brunn?
POTOK: Quite a bit, actually. We have known him for quite a few years. He has been relatively inactive in the first -- in the recent decade or so.
But this is a guy who at one point in the early '80s worked for Noontide Press. This is the premier Holocaust-denial press in the country. He also wrote a book which he called "Kill the Best Gentiles," which he describes in his ads as -- quote -- "a new hard- hitting expose of the Jew conspiracy to destroy the white gene pool."
Additionally, we found his own writings in which he talks about how he was arrested in December of 1981. He decided that the Federal Reserve Board was a secretly controlled by -- quote, unquote -- "the Jews." He was going to go in there and force the governors of the board and Paul Volcker -- he was going to handcuff them and force them to admit all kinds of terrible things on TV. And, by his own account, he went. He was sentenced to 11 years in prison by, as he says, a -- quote -- "Negro jury" and a -- quote -- "Jew judge."
SANCHEZ: So, his -- his contempt is not limited to Jews?
POTOK: That's true.
SANCHEZ: Apparently, it -- tell us more about that, because I keep hearing that combination of words as I go through what has been described as his Web site and confirmed by you all, The Negro Jew, the Jew Negro. That combination of words keeps popping up.
POTOK: Yes. Well, I think his attitude seems to be very much the attitude of most people on the neo-Nazi right, which is "the Jews" -- quote, unquote -- control all other unpleasant groups. In other words, black people, brown people, yellow people, gay people and so on are all controlled by the nefarious, evil Jews, who kind of, you know, have them on puppet strings and so on.
And this is all with the object, according to neo-Nazis, of destroying sort of Christian white America, for the benefit of the Jews.
SANCHEZ: Well, it appears at this point that a white supremacist, according to police, has walked in the other Holocaust center -- museum -- in Washington, D.C., shot a guard, and then was shot at by another guard. As many as three people are in a hospital.
Any moment now, we're going to be getting a news conference from the hospital.
We are talking to Mark Potok, who is the ultimate authority on, really, hate in the United States, representing the Southern Poverty Law Center. We are going to be joined by Avery Friedman, civil rights attorney, Alex Kingsbury from "U.S. News," Dr. Judy Kuriansky, a clinical psychologist who is going to take us through this. And our Drew Griffin and Mike Brooks are also joining us.
In fact, Drew Griffin has a question for you, Mark. I don't know if you can hear him. But let's try and see if we can open those two lines of communication up.
Take it away, Drew.
GRIFFIN: Mark, I have two quick questions.
The records show that this guy, if it is, indeed, him, lived in Hayden, Idaho, back in 2004, 2005, which resonates with the white supremacist community.
POTOK: Sure does.
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: I'm wondering if you were tracking them?
(CROSSTALK)
POTOK: Hayden Lake, which is right next door to Hayden, is in fact where Aryan Nations was sited for many decades. So...
GRIFFIN: Have you been able to track him to there?
POTOK: We have not.
GRIFFIN: OK.
POTOK: What we know so far is, is that he was definitely friends with William Pierce, the head of the National Alliance, who died a few years ago, in 2002. And he was also acquainted with well-known, but now dead, leaders of the white supremacist world, people like Revilo Oliver and a man named Wilmot Robertson.
GRIFFIN: And just -- I may have you speculate a little bit, but, like you said, this guy has been dormant for a long time. He is 88 years old. He's living out in Annapolis, supposedly painting pictures.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Yes. You know, it's funny. Is there anything...
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: What sparked?
SANCHEZ: Yes, is there a spark here? Or is there something that motivated this act?
POTOK: Well, I think it is a perfectly reasonable question. Of course, we don't know much right now.
But my own speculation would be, this is a guy who clearly has been in the movement for decades, who has been raging and raging about the ills of people of color and Jews and so on. And my suspicion is, is that he felt he was nearing his life.
He saw Obama, a black man, in the Oval Office, felt that, you know, American had gone to hell in a handbasket, and, by golly, he was going to strike one great blow for freedom before he died himself. Now, obviously, that is merely speculation.
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: No, I understand.
But, look, let's be honest with this. And I think it behooves us to at least mention it. You have been telling us for months now on our show that there is a heightened rhetoric in this country at this time. And, in the past two weeks, we have seen two shootings, one of an abortion doctor and one of a -- of two recruits or two soldiers...
(CROSSTALK) POTOK: And, in the weeks before that, five police officers -- or, really, three police officers in Pittsburgh and two sheriff's deputies in Florida, also murdered by extremists. It's been an extraordinary period.
SANCHEZ: Give -- well, given your experience, and not ours, but yours, because you study this on a daily basis, is there any significance to all of this? Are they tie-able in any way?
POTOK: Well, I mean, I think the thing you can say that is certainly true is that there has been a lot of activity over the last few months. As we have tried to point out, it seemed that the movement had heated up a fair amount as a result of Obama's election.
The economy certainly hasn't helped and the continuing issue of non- white immigration. So, yes, I think we're -- you hear a lot. We are writing a story right now talking about the possibility of a militia resurgence, not because we're back in the '90s, but because there are definite signs of a stirring of this movement. And this is the merely latest manifestation of that.
SANCHEZ: Let's do this. Let's -- let's sneak in another break. We are going to hang on with Mark Potok, who is the ultimate authority on much of this. Avery Friedman is going to be joining us as well.
You heard from Mike Brooks in a little bit. And I think he has picked up some new information.
If that news conference from the hospital begins during this break, we will then come right out of the break and let you hear exactly what officials there at the hospital are saying about the conditions of both the suspect and two of the guards who tried to fight him off, so he wouldn't be able to get into the Holocaust center and wouldn't do any harm to some of the visitors who were at the time.
We also have some interviews, including some with people who were there visiting the Holocaust Museum at the time.
Stay with us, all of this for you when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Just to unpeel the onion here a little bit for you, I'm being told now by Rick behind me here that we do have some new video that shortly we're going to be showing you.
But what we want to do is just be journalistically sound about this, and, before we show you the video, we want to make sure it wasn't a car that was borrowed. But it appears to be tied.
Rick, give us the best explanation you can on this, on why it is that we are holding on showing this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, we are trying to be as responsible as we can, especially in breaking news coverage.
SANCHEZ: It appears to be his car, though?
POTOK: Yes, yes, from all indications, it appears it could be his vehicle.
And that's according to one source that informed us of that. But, initially, when this story broke, information provided to us from authorities themselves were conflicting. So, we are just being very responsible with this information.
SANCHEZ: OK. Thanks, Rick (sic). We appreciate it. Let us know when we get a go on that and we'll go with it.
By the way, what you see there behind me, you see that?
Go ahead in on that if you can.
You see that monitor right there? You see the guy with the hat? Right behind him is all the microphones that are set up for that news conference that we're going to be taking. That's just outside George Washington University Hospital.
And Hank, you're going to let us know as soon as the officials start walking over there.
Hank will let us know and we will take that as well.
I promised an eyewitness, and this isn't just any eyewitness. This is somebody who was actually visiting the Holocaust Museum at the time. And there is a caveat here that's extremely important. From what I understand, Bonnie's relatives are Holocaust survivors, and she was visiting today and she experienced this.
Bonnie, are you there?
BONNIE: I'm here.
SANCHEZ: Tell me what you saw.
BONNIE GUDIS, WITNESS: Well, we first heard some gunshots. We weren't sure if it was part of the Museum exhibit or what. And then they started closing off the exit ways, and we saw an emergency exit and we went down the elevator and went out the building. And they just -- the security guards told us to run away from the building, that some kind of shooting had occurred.
SANCHEZ: You're about the fourth or fifth person I have heard on TV say that they were told to run.
What was that sense of urgency? Can you put us there? What was it like?
GUDIS: It was horrible. People didn't know what they were running from. They were just running and trying to get away from the building. They thought maybe there was a bomb or -- there were school kids there that were being separated from each other. They were very, very scared. SANCHEZ: It must have been scary. Is it true that you have relatives who are Holocaust survivors?
GUDIS: My father was a Holocaust survivor, as well as my husband's parents. And it was a very emotional day for us. And then, for this to happen on top of it, it was just unbelievable.
SANCHEZ: How does it strike you then as someone whose father was a Holocaust survivor, visiting the Holocaust Museum on a day where preliminary reports indicate the action taken was that of a white supremacist who was very anti-Semitic?
GUDIS: Very, very sad. It's never-ending. And like my father always told me, we can never forget what happened, because it could happen any time, any place. And no matter what the future brings, there is always going to be some crazies that have hatred in their hearts.
SANCHEZ: Bonnie, thanks so much for joining us. We appreciate your time.
GUDIS: Thank you.
SANCHEZ: Chris Van Cleave is with WJLA. He is filing a story now. Let's see if we can pick him up.
Chris Van Cleave, are you there?
CHRIS VAN CLEAVE, REPORTER, WJLA: Yes, Rick. Can you hear me?
SANCHEZ: Pick it up for us. Let us know what you have learned. I know you're there on the scene, you're talking to officials.
What's going on there on the ground now?
VAN CLEAVE: Well, we are at George Washington University Hospital. And so far, officials have told us very little.
They have confirmed that two people were transported here, the first one arriving right about 1:00. That's when we got here on the scene. And as we were getting out of our crew vehicle and starting to set up, the van we believed to be the security guard was brought in.
We watched paramedics performing CPR as they rushed him from the ambulance inside the hospital. And then a few minutes later, under police escort, another ambulance arrived, lights and sirens blaring. Inside, the man we believe to be the suspect.
As he was wheeled out, the first people out of the ambulance, two police officers, then the paramedics, then this gentlemen laying on his side. He appeared to be handcuffed to the gurney. He was then taken inside.
Clearly an older gentlemen. We believe him to be the suspect.
Right now, we are waiting to hear from the hospital, hoping to get some kind of update on the condition of the two people. We undertan they were considered in grave condition, rushed what's called priority one here in the district to this hospital.
This is the nearest trauma center to the scene of the shooting, and also the closest hospital. So it makes sense they would be brought here.
They were transported as what was called priority one here in the district, meaning potentially life-threatening injuries. We don't know their condition, but certainly they were concerned enough at the scene to rush them here to the hospital.
And we had heard a third person was injured possibly by falling glass. It remains unclear if that person has been treated here, was treated elsewhere, or was simply treated at the scene and then sent on their way.
SANCHEZ: That would make four potential victims, if it is, indeed, obviously.
Chris, thanks so much for that report. We appreciate it.
We're going to be learning a lot more about this because, as promised, we're going to be hearing a news conference coming from G. W. in just a little bit.
In the meantime, Avery Friedman is going to be joining us on the back side of this next break we are going to try to sneak in, as is Alex Kingsbury and Dr. Judy Kurianski, to take us through this situation, where the story now is not just about a particular crime, but a particular crime that happens to be about hate.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: And as you can see, there is a bevy of activity that's going on right now. This is the heart of our operation, the CNN NEWSROOM here at the world headquarters in Atlanta, where for the better part of two hours we have been essentially putting together all the elements of this story that's developing in our nation's capital.
In case you haven't heard, there has been an incident at the Holocaust Museum. A man said to be 88 years old, walked into the Museum with a long gun and attempted to shoot a guard. He did, in fact, shoot that guard, but two other guards -- and we are going to be clearing some of this up in just a moment because we are expecting a news conference. Some of this is still somewhat iffy as to what conditions were and who shot when. But two guards apparently returned fire and downed him.
He has been taken to the hospital. These are police officials there arriving at the scene.
We have several guests who are joining us now to take us through this story, because obviously there's a lot of import and a lot of attention being paid to the fact that the suspect appears to be James von Brunn, 88 years old, with ties to white supremacist organizations. Long-held ties, by the way. Let me take you through some of the folks who are going to be talking you through this.
Avery Friedman is a well-known civil rights attorney. He is joining us from Cleveland. Alex Kingsbury is with "U.S. News & World Report," has been filing, in fact, stories on this very subject. Wayne Slater, as you can see right there, also is joining us from Dallas with "The Dallas Morning News." And also Dr. Judy Kuriansky is a clinical psychologist and author.
Dr. Judy Kuriansky, let me begin with you.
Can you take us into the mind of someone like this and what would perhaps make them do something like this act, which most of us can see from the outside can be based only on his own sense of hate, right?
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, it's definitely, Rick, a hate crime, but also an act of terrorism. And they go together.
There are different kinds of hate crimes and terrorists. The lone wolf, which you've referred to, usually motivated by individual retribution or revenge. And then more likely in this case, someone motivated by a group cause. And here we have two big groups, hating Jews, hating blacks, or hating minority groups, which escalates the hate and the level of the violence of the act.
These people are prejudice. They act for a cause. They are willing to die for a cause in the name of whatever they consider honor, which is tremendously dishonorable in our view. And they're very violent.
SANCHEZ: Can they be motivated or do they need to be motivated?
Wayne Slater, why don't you pick that one up?
WAYNE SLATER, SR. POLITICAL WRITER, "DALLAS MORNING NEWS": They absolutely need to be motivated and are being motivated. Each of these episodes in recent weeks, whether it's killing an abortion doctor, whether it was this Holocaust denier today, or whether it was others, whether you're talking about Tim McVeigh or anti-tax secessionists in Texas, the interesting this is they are all separate, but they are all hearing portions of the same echo chamber, a kind of dialogue. A toxic dialogue that's subterranean in large parts.
Remember, the man who is accused of the most recent shooting of the abortion doctor, according to his ex-wife, had connections with the Montana Freemen, a kind of wild, radical secessionist group. You hear not only these conversations about blacks and Jews, but about the government and about other hate-filled issues. Although they are separate, they are connected by a kind of dialogue of toxic ideology.
SANCHEZ: But they come in many forms and sizes. Abdulhakim, for example. Abdulhakim Muhammad, who just last week, according to police, shot a U.S. soldier.
Avery Friedman, he wasn't someone who we would normally see as someone motivated by some of the hate within this country. He got his, according to ABC News and our own confirmed reports now at CNN, from Yemen.
AVERY FRIEDMAN, CIVIL RIGHTS ATTORNEY & LAW PROFESSOR: Yes. Well, you know what? It doesn't really matter, Rick, what motivates the hate.
I mean, just from a pure legal perspective, think about this. Number one, you've got a convicted felon. Number two, he comes on U.S. property, which is -- the U.S. Holocaust Museum is part of the U.S. Parks system. Third, he comes out with a firearm.
So, right there, you are dealing with an individual who is trying to coerce, intimidate by the unlawful use of force. You add hate on to that. The Congress has amended the U.S. code to make this a serious crime. He better pray that security guard recovers, because we may be looking at a capital offense.
SANCHEZ: We're expecting any moment now that we're going to be hearing from officials there at the hospital as they take us through this.
Is there something that comes out of -- any one of you, is there something that comes out of acts like this, especially now that we're starting to see -- usually we don't call it a trend until we see three different acts. Tonight, we see three different acts. We see the shooting of the abortion provider. We see the shooting of the soldiers. And now we see this incident at the Holocaust Museum.
KURIANSKY: I think what comes out of it is an undercurrent of violence in this country, and certainly even abroad. And secondly, what results from it is tremendous fear in people, because you recognize that you could be anywhere and something terrorist can happen.
SANCHEZ: Alex Kingsbury is joining us well, "U.S. News & World Report."
You have been writing about this. I read part of a blog that you had filed earlier today.
What's your take?
ALEX KINGSBURY, "U.S. NEWS & WORLD REPORT": Well, I would just point out that this is something that the Department of Homeland Security has been focused on for quite a while. In April, they released a report warning that lone wolves and small cells of right-wing extremists in the United States was the most dangerous domestic terrorist threat. So, you know, this is right out of what DHS has been watching and their intelligence units have been watching.
SANCHEZ: They got some heat though for including in that report that we needed to be particularly careful of U.S. soldiers returning home and then mixing with a bad element and being radicalized themselves. And yet, interestingly enough, if this is, indeed, him, as I go back through the bio of this gentlemen, von Brunn, I understand -- and somebody can help me out with this -- during World War II, he served as a PT boat captain, a lieutenant, received commendations and four battle stars.
This guy was, until we learned about this, a hero.
SLATER: Rick, that's what he is saying on his Web site. Whether that has been confirmed, we certainly don't know. But even so, that doesn't excuse...
(CROSSTALK)
SANCHEZ: Would it shock you? Would it shock you if it was true?
KURIANSKY: I don't think it would shock me from a psychological point of view. We love our troops and we honor them, but we have heard many individual cases now that are happening that soldiers return from the war, they suffer from Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, they become either suicidal or homicidal. They mix the experience that they had in the war with what's going on in real life, they have a hard time readjusting.
SANCHEZ: True.
KINGSBURY: Well, I think they were also talking about the climate. You know, DHS was talking about the climate on the right wing, but they also issued reports on left-wingers as well. I mean, it was a non-ideological thing. And veterans just are a group of people with military training. So there is a concern.
SANCHEZ: You looked into this. Let me just ask you before I bring in our own Drew Griffin. Are they doing enough? Is homeland security taking care of this properly, or is there room for criticism now that we see these three incidents?
KINGSBURY: Well, I think as one of your guests pointed out before, these lone wolves, the person that just wakes up one day and decides to do this, whether it's at Virginia Tech or whether it's an abortion doctor or here in the nation's capital, there is very little you can do to prevent it. But to mitigate it is why we saw these guards on the front line of this incident.
SANCHEZ: As we follow this breaking story, let me bring in investigative reporter Drew Griffin.
Drew, you had some comments?
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: I was just shaking my head. I think that some of these analysts are getting a little ahead of the game here. We are talking about an 88-year-old vet of World War II. I don't think that this was the guy that Homeland Security was worried about.
SANCHEZ: Oh, no, no, no. And to be fair, Drew, I don't think anybody was making the point that this is who homeland security was talking about. The point being made here is that you have a guy who, if his Web site is correct, is a decorated war veteran. GRIFFIN: That's absolutely correct, but decorated 60 years ago or so. What we do know about him is -- you know, from Mark Potok (ph), who you just had on your show -- this guy has been dormant for a while.
From the records, it looked like he was widowed about five years ago. It looks like his wife died in 2004. And he has been living out on the Maryland coast.
He wrote this very nasty book that looks like it was printed back in 1999. But still, you know, the big mystery is what sparked this old guy to go into D.C. and shoot up a Holocaust Museum?
SANCHEZ: Maybe the thing to be learned from this, that it could be anyone, that we can't look at someone and imagine, well, this guy obviously has a great record in the past, so he's not capable of something like this. A lot of people out there could be capable of something like this, and they come in just about any color, any stripe, any nationality and any ideology, as we were just going through that list a little while ago.
I understand we've got Jim Acosta standing by now. Jim Acosta is joining us by phone, and he is apparently at the suspect's home in Maryland.
Jim, are you there?
JIM ACOSTA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That's right, Rick.
I am in Annapolis, Maryland, standing just outside the apartment building where the suspect apparently lives. There are law enforcement officials on the scene, a squad car from the Anne Arundel County Police. Not a very busy scene, I must say, Rick.
But I did talk to a "Washington Post" reporter who covers state politics at the Capitol. You know, Annapolis is the capital of Maryland. And as soon as he got the word, he came racing over to this apartment building and talked to a couple of neighbors of this suspect before law enforcement officials arrived. He says -- and this according to John Wagner of "The Washington Post" -- he says he talked to a couple of neighbors who recalled this suspect espousing anti- Semitic and Holocaust-denying views -- Rick.
SANCHEZ: Who was saying this? I missed that. Who was saying that they heard him say this?
ACOSTA: John Wagner with "The Washington Post" came over here. He was covering state politics over at the Capitol. As soon as he got the word, he came over to the apartment complex. Wagner ran into a couple of neighbors here at the building who confirmed they heard the suspect -- this is second-hand information -- they heard the suspect espousing these sorts of Holocaust-denying views.
SANCHEZ: And Jim, I understand you just sent us a picture. Angie Massey (ph), my executive producer, just told me here in my ear that there is a shot.
We have got the shot up now. So it looks to be what appears to be either an apartment building or something like that.
Describe it for us, Jim, if you would.
ACOSTA: Yes. It's just your basic garden variety apartment complex, suburban apartment complex, Rick. Nothing too exciting.
And there is not really a whole lot of activity on the scene for all of the ruckus that this suspect may have caused down in Washington at the Holocaust Museum. There is just not a whole lot of activity out here. Reporters are just getting to the scene here now.
And as you know, Rick, reporters who got to the scene before law enforcement were able to get some tidbits of information.
SANCHEZ: All right. We're going to be sharing some of those tidbits throughout this hour and with our continued coverage here on CNN.
Let me just check with Rick or Hank.
Are they both on the phone?
Are you guys on the phone?
Can I ask you just a quick question? What's going on with the -- we had told viewers moments ago that the hospital was going to be having a news conference. Do we know if that -- is that off?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we just heard from one of our producers on site at the hospital that they just heard from the hospital, George Washington University Hospital, and said and announced that they are not coming out to brief us.
SANCHEZ: So at this point, we don't know what their actual conditions were or any description of their injuries?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Correct. Correct. I just hung up with our producer in D.C. to ask and find out, you know, exactly what's going on.
SANCHEZ: Wow. Let us know when you find out.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely. Will do.
SANCHEZ: Rick Martin (ph), thanks so much, national desk here at CNN, trying to get us all the information on this moving story.
All right. As we get the information, we are going to be sharing it with you. Stay with us.
Let's get a quick break in. On the other side, hopefully, you will be able to hear from one of the visitors to the Holocaust Museum who was there at the time and describes for us exactly what happened and what they experienced.
Hold on.
What have we got? Do we have something before we go to break that we should show? Do we have a live picture?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we've got a live picture outside his house in Annapolis.
SANCHEZ: All right. I think we had shown that picture just a little while ago. So -- that's the one. We have live video now?
What router is that on?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: VP-106.
SANCHEZ: VP-106 is where we're going to, Dan. I don't know if you can pick that up.
Let's see if we can see the picture. We got it there?
All right. There it is. That's the picture.
Once again, not very different from what we were seeing moments ago in the picture that Jim Acosta showed us. You see some of the news crews showing up at the scene.
Let's go to break on that.
We'll be back in just a moment with more details. As you can see, the story continues to develop. And as the information comes in, we'll share.
I'm Rick Sanchez.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
We're right in the thick of things here in the heart of the CNN NEWSROOM. We're following a developing story.
Three, maybe four people have been injured. A man walks in with a long gun, rifle or shotgun, shoots a guard at the Holocaust Memorial center there in Washington, D.C., and then other guards return fire.
There has been a bevy of activity going on in Washington, D.C. -- sirens going back and forth, ambulances, police trying to figure out what happened here. And the story has really heightened in import because we have learned when police -- two police sources have reported to CNN that it is in fact -- the shooter is named James von Brunn, 88 years old, and we have learned from several sources, including the Southern Poverty Law Center, who we always have had contacts here about this time, that he does have ties to white supremacist groups.
In fact, we've been reading what appears to be his bio on one of his own Web sites, and it does sound hateful, extremely hateful towards Jews and "Negroes," is the term that's used on this several times.
There's always one witness who watches things happen and his account stands out. This is who -- this is the one that's really stood out for me.
I want you to listen. What struck me about this, it's eyewitness David Unruh describing what at first -- he was inside the Holocaust Museum when we heard the gunfire. He didn't even think it was actual gunfire, and he takes us through story.
Let's listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID UNRUH, WITNESS: Probably just -- I don't know exactly, maybe 30 feet from the entrance. The incident happened up right by the entrance and the gift shop area.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you think it was shots right away or...
UNRUH: The first shot I -- you know, you don't expect that. You're in a secure place, a place of reverence and respect. You don't expect gunshots. But as they repeated, it's like, that's gunfire. Then they said "Hit the floor," and we did.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: He goes on to describe then that soon after that, authorities told him, "Go. Make a run for it. Run as fast as you possibly can."
He's not the only one who's told us that, by the way. His account takes us through his fear and his family's fear at the time while they were inside the Holocaust Memorial Museum.
We're expecting to get some more information on the conditions of the victims. We've also got our own guests standing by. As you know, Avery Friedman, civil rights attorney, is going to be taking us through the story. Alex Kingsbury with "U.S. News & World Report." Dr. Judy Kuriansky is a clinical psychologist, as well. And Mike Brooks has been working details for us from his own old police department, D.C.
We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
SANCHEZ: Just moments ago I was handed some grim news about this story. It is being reported by local media there in Washington, D.C., including our own affiliate, WJLA, that one of the guards who was transported to the hospital after being in an apparent gunfight with this alleged white supremacist has died.
Again, the information coming in to us now by several sources.
I think you can hear in the background there the report coming over now. There you have Rick Martin (ph) making the announcement that goes to all the different CNN sources here and in different bureaus around the world that it is confirmed that one of the guards has died.
Let's just do a round-robin before we go and pick up some of our own guests with that information.
Avery Friedman, let's begin with you.
FRIEDMAN: Yes. You know, Mike Brooks had made an interesting remark about the particular guards being contract officers. I don't know if that's been confirmed.
But if it's a federal officer, we're dealing with a capital offense. It may be capital anyhow, but I'd be interested in knowing whether it is an employee of the Federal Park System or a contractor. I don't know.
SANCHEZ: Down to about 30 seconds.
Alex Kingsbury?
KINGSBURY: I would just note that, you know, that's exactly what these people are there for, these guards, the metal detectors. This prevented what could have been a much worse incident had they not been there.
SANCHEZ: It fits the definition of a hero, doesn't it, if he actually sacrificed himself to protect others who were there?
KINGSBURY: Right.
SANCHEZ: And finally, Dr. Judy Kuriansky.
KURIANSKY: I think exactly as you said, really, Rick. There are two opposite dynamics here. There is a tremendous hate and then there is a celebration for the public on the part that there are heroes.
SANCHEZ: Wayne Slater, I want to thank you for being with us. Unfortunately, we're out of time.
It's great to have a panel of guests like we've had with Alex and Avery and Dr. Judy.
Again, CNN is staying on top of this story. We take you, in fact, now to Washington, D.C.
Here now with this developing story, my colleague, Wolf Blitzer.
