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Iran Bans Foreign Journalists From Rallies; Letterman Apologizes to Palin; Florida Scholl Beatings Lawsuit

Aired June 16, 2009 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.


(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Four days after Iran's election and the protests seem to be growing more violent, foreign journalists banned, and recounts by the very government accused of rigging votes in the first place.

Has anybody thought about this? What if Ahmadinejad really did win? Are Western media outlets getting this thing all wrong?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (INAUDIBLE) man. You just started it all over again.

HOLMES: Decades ago, they say they were beaten as boys. Now they are men, facing their accused childhood tormentor and looking for justice.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you spanked these boys with this leather strap, did you use all of your power?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

HOLMES: A CNN exclusive -- you will see it right here.

DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": I would like to apologize.

HOLMES: And Letterman says he is sorry to the Palin family. Is this very public spat finally over?

Your national conversation for Tuesday, June 16, 2009, begins right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: And good afternoon, everybody. I'm T.J. Holmes, sitting in today for Rick Sanchez.

We have been following, of course, the developments we have been seeing in Iran over the past several days. We will continue that coverage today. But it is a little more difficult for us right now. It's a little trickier. Why?

Because, today, there is no foreign press coverage allowed there. The Iranian government has shut us down, CNN and other foreign media, non-Iranian news agencies banned from coverage anything related to this election, CNN reporters and producers not allowed to leave their hotel rooms, some online services blocked, text and video services on the Internet blocked.

We are, however, still able to get some video, get some things out of there through some other ways and other means. This is some video we have seen that was taken today. This was at a march for supporters of the opposition candidate, Mir Hossein Mousavi. He is still disputing the election results.

Those results that we saw of course that were put out by the interior ministry saw President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won, and won in a landslide pretty much. We have also seen some pictures that maybe Iran's leaders might not want the world to see.

Take a look at what we are talking about here. What you are seeing here, amateur video, this was shot yesterday on a cell phone camera. This is in Tehran near Freedom Square. You have heard that several times over the past few days, where a lot of these demonstrations have been happening.

We are told those were gunshots you were hearing there. We don't know if this scene is related to the death of seven people in Tehran, who allegedly attacked a military base. Now I want you to listen to President Obama today explaining why for now his position on Iran is watch and wait.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's not productive, given the history of U.S.-Iranian relations, to be seen as meddling, the U.S. president meddling in Iranian elections.

What I will repeat, and what I said yesterday, is that when I see violence directed at peaceful protesters, when I see peaceful dissent being suppressed, wherever that takes place, it is of concern to me and it's of concern to the American people. That is not how governments should interact with their people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, I want to turn now to Octavia Nasr, who is here with me to join this discussion. She's our senior editor for Mideast affairs.

We just got a bit of information here across the AP. You and I were just talking about it before we sat down, that the supreme leader now bringing in all sides and is calling for unity. Again, this is according to the AP we are just getting.

Why would that be such a significant development?

OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: Because things got out of hand. All of those images that we are looking at, Iranians do not want this.

Iranians wanted their vote to be counted. That's simple. And, right now, where things -- what's going on is that you have two sides inside Tehran, one side supporting President Ahmadinejad, another side supporting Mr. Mousavi. And what they're doing, they are demonstrating.

The demonstrations were peaceful in the beginning, and then violence occurred. And then violence escalated. And Iranians are looking at this and saying, no, this is not acceptable. Now, for the supreme leader (INAUDIBLE) to step in and bring in all parties, that means he understands the severity of the situation and he wants to find a resolution to this.

Remember, T.J., earlier today, we reported that Iran agreed to a partial recount of the votes. Mr. Mousavi said, that's not enough. He wants the vote annulled, and he wants new elections, because they don't even believe. They think the election was rigged to start with. So, a recount is not going to help their cause.

His people kept demonstrating and the violence escalated. And now, if there is a meeting among all candidates...

HOLMES: Yes.

NASR: ... that means they are trying to find some kind of unity, some kind of resolution. They want to stop the bloodshed.

HOLMES: And, obviously, the people's movement, a grassroots movement, if you will, has been able to make their voices heard loud enough to force action by the supreme leader.

NASR: Absolutely. This is a cyber-revolution. If you look at it, it -- it happened on the Internet. It mushroomed on the Internet. We watched it develop.

We watched it develop during the campaign and then on Election Day and then after that. And we are watching it grow so fast and so bloody that it's making people very worried, very concerned right now.

And when you talk about the all the stuff you have been reporting, a crackdown on the media, not allowing us, for example, to leave our hotel room, how are we going to report about what's going on in Iran? If all the reports coming out of Iran are filtered by the Iranian government, how do you trust those reports?

So, what the opposition is doing, they are resorting to social media. They figured out a way to take pictures on their cell phones. That's why most of the video is either taking on a cell phone, amateur video. And they are uploading it on sites such as our own site, CNN's iReport, on YouTube, on Facebook, on Twitter, you name it.

They're having all kinds of conversations online with people. You know, the Iranian government also blocked the Internet.

HOLMES: Yes.

NASR: So, they tried to hack these people, tried to stop them from communicating with the outside world. They figured out a way. As a matter of fact, today, for example, one way I have been talking to my contacts inside Iran is through GTalk or through Google messenger.

HOLMES: Yes.

NASR: And those -- both those are down today. But my contacts told me that they used a proxy in order to get around the blockage. And we were able to talk. We were able to communicate, and they were telling me what's going on today.

So, Iranians are -- are very savvy.

HOLMES: Savvy.

(CROSSTALK)

NASR: And they are really using this technology to their advantage.

Another thing, T.J., that is important is that the world is embracing this cyber-revolution, if you will.

(CROSSTALK)

NASR: The world is standing there in support. You go to Twitter, for example, you see many people changed their profile pictures to green in solidarity with the green movement of Mousavi in Iran.

(CROSSTALK)

NASR: You see people telling each other, please don't use names. Don't use user names. And, of course, CNN is going to definitely do that.

(CROSSTALK)

NASR: We are going to protect people. We are not here to expose them or say their names on air or anywhere else.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: You know, no matter what, it is remarkable what we have been seeing on the air and in pictures as well.

NASR: It is. It sure is.

HOLMES: And we want to go now live to Iran, to Tehran.

Our Reza Sayah is there for us right now, Reza, of course, one of the -- one of the many who have -- I guess, Reza, your movements have been restricted pretty much by the government there.

So, we have been seeing these pictures, these protests, demonstrations and some violence over the past several days. Tell us what today was like and tell us what, I guess, is happening, is still possibly happening, even though it is late there right now.

REZA SAYAH, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, a lot happening today, T.J., several major developments. One of them is not good news for CNN and other members of the foreign media, the Iranian government today pointing the finger to CNN and other foreign media outlets, saying, you are no longer allowed to cover these rallies, you are no longer allowed broadcast images of these rallies.

Of course, it has been largely the foreign media outlets, including CNN, over the past few days that have shown pictures of the violent and oftentimes brutal crackdown against the supporters of Mir Hossein Mousavi, the disgruntled presidential candidate.

And, basically, today, the Iranian government said they have had enough. They have made it no secret that they weren't happy with the coverage, calling it biased and one-sided. And, today, they pulled the plug, making our job very challenging, T.J.

HOLMES: Challenging, as you say, there.

Is there any sense that today was much different than what we saw the past several days, which, of course, was several clashes? But does it seem like maybe -- and the word we are just getting now with the supreme leader maybe having conversations with all sides in the election, that maybe people are starting to wanting to move past, I guess, what we have been seeing in the streets the past few days?

SAYAH: Well, I think the two sides want to move past the situation here, but in different directions.

Indeed, the supreme leader did meet with representatives of all four candidates. And, earlier this week, he did call on the Iranian Guardian Council, the highest legislative body in Iran, to carefully review the vote. And Guardian Council did agree to do a recount, a partial recount, but that certainly not satisfying the Mousavi camp. They don't want a recount. They want a new vote.

And, today, we did see more rallies on both sides. You had a pro-Ahmadinejad camp coming out with a very large rally. A couple of hours later, you saw the Mousavi supporters with a huge rally. And for a moment there, it had the makings of a very volatile, explosive situation, possibly, people feared, a collision course between these two rallies.

But that didn't happen. So, what was different today, based on what we were able to observe, we were able to able to hear, not as much violence as we have seen in the past few days.

HOLMES: All right. And we will take that right now.

Reza Sayah, again, one of our journalists, our -- our reporters who is there in Tehran, but, again, like so many other foreign media, being restricted in what he can and can't do and where he can and can't move.

Reza, thank you so much. Meanwhile, we are, of course, as always, here on Rick's show, want to share with you some of the video we're getting, some of the comments we are getting from you as well.

Do want to head now -- we do have a comment up on Twitter from James Bowen, if we can turn there to that Twitter page and show you this, saying: "What if Ahmadinejad -- win? What if he did win? Then he is who we talk to. That's all.

Also, To the right there, someone else on MySpace, on Rick's MySpace, commenting, saying: "This is awful. People should be able to voice how they fear without fearing for their lives. Sad, very sad."

Thank you for sending your comments in. Continue to send them in. And our thanks once to Reza Sayah there in Tehran and also our Octavia Nasr, who has been -- who is sitting here with me, for her comments and really her reporting on what is happening there in the Middle East, specifically in Iran.

Well, stay with us here. The massive protests, we're talking about, the international concerns, Iran's elections has sparked all of that. But what -- what if the results announced are accurate? Is that even possible? That's not necessarily what a lot of people are talking about right now. But I have got a guest coming up who says, not only is it possible that Ahmadinejad won; it is likely. And he has got numbers to back it up.

Also, later, systematic, continual beatings at school, that's what a group of men say they were subjected to as children. Now, decades later, they're taking on the man they say was responsible.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER UPDATE)

HOLMES: And, again, a -- a question that maybe not being asked very loudly right now: What if the election in Iran is legitimate, and President Ahmadinejad is the rightful winner?

Well, we are going to pick that apart with a guest who says, yes, it is likely the people of Iran did choose Ahmadinejad. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Well, Iran's government says President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad won reelection by a landslide. Many Americans, many American journalists, many analysts, and many politicians here in this country think there was massive voter fraud there.

So far, there's not much evidence to support that allegation, at least. So, the question is now, is it possible that Ahmadinejad really did win this thing?

Our next guest is Ken Ballen. He says that is a distinct possibility. He is president of Terror Free Tomorrow, the Center For Public Opinion, a nonprofit group that does some polling. He joins us now from Washington.

Sir, the reason you say it is a possibility is because your organization did one of the last, one of the most extensive and also transparent polls just a couple weeks before the election in Iran.

What did your poll tell you?

KEN BALLEN, TERROR FREE TOMORROW: Well, our poll told us, T.J., that Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, President Ahmadinejad, was ahead by a 2-1 margin over his nearest rival.

Now, I have to caution you that was three weeks before the election. And a lot of people believe that Mr. Mousavi, his main challenger, gained strength after that time. So, that's perfectly possible. Our result does not predict the election.

HOLMES: Yes.

BALLEN: It can't three weeks out. But what it does show is, it is a distinct possibility that Ahmadinejad, if he maintained that early lead and that early momentum, did, indeed, win.

HOLMES: But is it not true that your poll was done as well before presidential elections happened -- excuse me, not elections -- but a debate happening there that many thought Ahmadinejad did very well in?

BALLEN: That's right. Well, that's right. So, we just don't know.

But what we -- we -- it's too bad we don't have other polls that are -- that are independent and uncensored, so we know. I want to point out something very interesting now that is happening today...

HOLMES: Go ahead. Uh-huh.

BALLEN: ... which is that what we found in our poll, in addition to Ahmadinejad being ahead, is that even most of his supporters were in favor of more democracy for Iran, free press and free elections as their top priorities.

So, the government is in a very dangerous position right now. It may be alienating by its actions Ahmadinejad's very base of support, who also want free elections, just like the rest of Iranians. Almost 90 percent of Iranians said: Give us free elections. Give us a free press. We want democracy.

These include Ahmadinejad supporters. So, if the government clamps down too hard, if this is perceived as a stolen election, then Ahmadinejad may be sealing this election from himself.

HOLMES: From himself. That was the point. I think I heard you made that -- make that point before, that, in fact, yes, he could have won this thing, and fair and square. I mean, nobody is saying the elections there are necessarily that open and fair, if you will, but nobody necessarily saying maybe there was fraud. So, he could have won it. But the way he has handled it since might put kind of a stain on his next four years.

BALLEN: Well, that's exactly right.

And it might -- what the irony is, we found in our poll, even among his own supporters, they want a more democratic system. Most of them do, not all. There are some that are kind of the true believers who will go to the barricades no matter what. But most of his supporters want a more open, free system as their top priorities for their government.

So, he is now, maybe, along with the supreme leader, in the danger of stealing this election...

HOLMES: Right.

BALLEN: ... from his rightful victory, and diminishing his own standing among his own supporters.

(CROSSTALK)

HOLMES: Last thing I want to ask you here -- and this is something maybe that didn't show up in your polling -- but, in your opinion, in the coverage you have seen, maybe the coverage you saw leading up to the election in Iran, did you feel that maybe there was some overstating and some wishful thinking, as some have termed it, on behalf of some of the -- the folks in the West, some of the politicians in the West, by really wanting to build up and really hope that Mousavi was making a movement and was making and gaining some ground?

BALLEN: T.J., it is hard to really know the answer to that.

Absent polls, absent a more transparent and open system in -- in Iran, we just don't really know whether Mousavi was gaining strength or not. A lot of very knowledgeable Iranians who I respect tell me that that's the case. So, it -- it may very well be the case.

But what's happening now is, the government's actions since the election, particularly if the bloodshed becomes more widespread, risk alienating some of their own supporters. And that is putting the government, I think, in a very difficult position, which may be why -- may be why you see the supreme leader today wanting to bring people in and try to work this out, because I think that they realize this could be a potentially explosive situation between two camps.

HOLMES: Well, again, Ken Ballen, the president of Terror Free Tomorrow, the Center For Public Opinion, sir, I know you have been busy the last few days because of that poll. Everybody wants to talk to you. But we appreciate you being here to talk to us.

(CROSSTALK)

BALLEN: Well, T.J., thanks so much. It's a pleasure to be on.

HOLMES: All right, thanks so much.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. SARAH PALIN (R), ALASKA: ... David Letterman's crude, sexist, perverted joke about a 14-year-old girl being "knocked up" by Alex Rodriguez. I think he's like 30-some years old. I think that that's, you know, pretty perverted.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, as you saw, that's Sarah Palin there. She's responding to a joke told by late-night host David Letterman.

Well, last night, Letterman took his own show to apologize and also to answer critics who are calling for his firing.

Well, of course, the last guest you just heard, Ken Ballen, was telling us that it is a distinct possibility that Iran's election results are accurate. But no one in this demonstration, at least, believes that.

Well, later on in the show, I will have an Iranian-American student. She is actually sitting right next to me right now. She is here to chime in on what's been happening. We will talk to her in just a bit. There she is. She has been sitting here listening to the show and listening to some of this debate. But we will be talking to her in just a moment.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right, Palin vs. Letterman may be over, finally. We might have an end to the flap over his off-colored joke about Sarah Palin's daughters. Well, then, again, maybe not. Letterman began his CBS show last night with this, an apology.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN")

LETTERMAN: I told a bad joke. I told a joke that was beyond flawed. And my intent is completely meaningless compared to -- to the perception.

And -- and, since it was a joke I told, I feel that I need to do the right thing here and apologize for having told that joke.

I would like to apologize, especially to the two daughters involved, Bristol and Willow, and also to the governor and her family and everybody else who was outraged by the joke.

I'm sorry about it. And I will try to do better in the future. Thank you very much.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: Yes, he went on for a good four-plus minutes last night on the show with that apology.

Then, hours later, we heard from Governor Palin, who released a statement accepting the apology, but not without a bit of a swipe, some say, at Letterman.

Palin said she was accepting the apology -- quote -- "on behalf of young women like my daughters, who hope men who joke about public displays of sexual exploitation of girls will soon evolve."

A conservative radio host says a protest rally for tonight will still happen outside the theater where Letterman tapes his show.

More to come, I'm sure.

Well, coming up next: Iranian-American students involved in the protests here, they are weighing in on the Iran election results.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Well, welcome back, everybody, T.J. Holmes, sitting in for Rick Sanchez today.

We have been covering extensively what's happening over in Iran with the protests. We want to share with you -- again, we said that there has been a ban on foreign media there now with covering a lot of what is happening with a lot of the rallies. Even our reporters, other foreign reporters have been told they have to stay in their hotel rooms.

So, we are depending on a lot of iReporters and getting a lot of information. We are checking it as much as we can before we bring it to you. But we are getting some pictures we do want to share with you right now.

Let's go ahead and go to this first one here, as a demonstrator -- we have seen some of these demonstrators turn -- demonstrations turn violent, certainly, but this described as a demonstrator here who was shot during a protest in the streets in the capital there. This was apparently on the 15th.

The rally was attended by hundreds of thousands of Iranians protesting against the alleged fraud. Again, we have heard -- we know that seven people have been killed, confirmed that. Don't even know -- exactly know how in that situation.

But as you see here, we are just getting these pictures. So we are going through them here with you as we're going through them ourselves really. They have been checked out. But these are protesters burning a car. This was at a pro government militia, this was at a building of a pro-government militia. Again, this was in Tehran as well.

Let's go ahead and go through to the next picture as well, more Iranian demonstrations. You can see someone there in the middle of your screen that looks pretty battered and bloody. Again, some of these images here are tough to see.

Let's go to one more. We can show you that we are just getting in, appears to be riot police there in the middle of a crowd. We have heard these reports for the past several days. Riot police clashing with some of the demonstrators and a lot of these have gotten violent and even deadly in some ways. Again, we are getting a lot of information, tough reports to get it.

But as we get it, we go through it as strictly as well can and as tough as we can and vet it the best we can before we bring it to you. But we have been getting stuff from people sending us stuff, i- Reporters from Iran. They are not giving their names. We will not be giving their names. But again, we vet this stuff and bring it to you as best we can given some of the restrictions we do now have in moving around the country and covering a lot of what's happening there.

We do have another demonstration we can show you now. A group of people, this is in Dubai. At the United Arab Emirates today, about 400 people, most of them exiles from Iran, watching events of course in their home country, showing how they feel about the election with a silent protest. This is in front of the Iranian embassy there in Dubai. Their message, stop killing my people, also give me my vote back. We've been hearing that one for the past several days.

The frustration of people disenchanted with their country's political direction. I have a guest with me right now, Ladan Mohkami. She is an Iranian-American and a U.S. citizen. You do have extended family in Iran. You are upset and angry, disappointed about what you have been seeing for the past couple of days. You are going to be participating in a protest I believe today, coming up in just a little while.

You tell me, when you see these pictures, I guess, have you really been that involved and really watched that closely, kind of the internal political strife over the past few years or is that situation the one that's really got you the most upset and involved?

LADAN MOHKAMI, IRANIAN-AMERICAN: My parents do follow the elections closely. But this particular election really hit home with me. It was a critical election for the people. You know, it's an election about change and freedom and stuff like that. Now that the people aren't being heard and aren't being given freedom, you know, it hits close to home.

And when you say that change, does it need to be just a change of president or does much more need to happen? I mean, would you feel better if Mousavi was, in fact, president? Or do you think a lot more needs to happen, just a change of the name of the president?

MOHKAMI: No, this election created a lot of uproar in Iran because of the corruption involved and voters and not being heard. The people right now just want to be heard. So the government needs to do a lot to change. It really doesn't matter on who is president. It matters that their voices are being heard right now.

HOLMES: Now that is an interesting point there. For you, I don't know who you might have supported, Ahmadinejad or Mousavi or if you got into it to that degree. But really it is much more about this than just who is president. Do you have any hope, though, that if Mousavi was, in fact, president, that anything would change?

MOHKAMI: The presidential election, the person that was elected to president, wasn't as crucial as people think. The people in Iran, the majority of the votes, are being pushed towards Mousavi right now but Mousavi, itself, is not the reason why people are protesting. They just want to be heard. They want to know that their votes were counted and they feel like they were not heard at this point.

HOLMES: What do you think? You are a long way from Iran right now. What impact do you think you and some of your fellow students, some fellow Iranian-Americans, what impact are you hoping for and realistically what sort of impact do you feel like you can make by making your voice heard?

MOHKAMI: All I want my voice to be heard is that people that are voting right now -- there was a very high turnout, 85 percent of people voted in Iran. So obviously, it was a big election. And when people were upset after the election was counted and everything like that, people are still upset. They are protesting because they feel like their voices were not heard by the government. Right now, people just want to know that they have the right to pick who should be in office and they are not being given that freedom right now.

HOLMES: All right, well Ladan Mohkami, again, an Iranian- American going to be participating in a demonstration. I believe they're having, not far from where we are here, in just a little bit, but a recent college grad. Congratulations to you in that regard.

MOHKAMI: Thank you very much.

HOLMES: Thank you so much. Thank you for being here.

All right, well coming up here next, we are going to switch gears a bit and head to another story that's making a lot of headlines around the world. Two U.S. journalists held in North Korea sentenced to more than a decade of hard labor. Now, North Korean authorities are letting us know what they say Laura Ling and Euna Lee were doing there in the first place.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: You know, we are going to get to the story about North Korea in just a second, but I do want to share and thanks for pointing this out to me, Mike. One of the Tweets we just got from someone, more Iranian-Americans, talking about of course the situation happening there. But let's go to it here, it's the one in the middle there. It says, "As an Iranian-American, I hope this event educates Americans about the difference between Iraq and Iran. Not all Arabs are Iraqi." Now there is a lot of education going on for a lot of people, bringing to their attention exactly what is happening and what has been happening in Iran for so many years and maybe this will educate a lot of people. Meanwhile, let's go ahead and turn back to what's happening in North Korea. Laura Ling, Euna Lee, waded across a freezing river to get into North Korea, with the intention of making an illegal smear campaign on the country's human rights. That's the description that's coming from a news report today by North Korea's state run media. The report also claims the current TV journalist recorded their river crossing and the video shows one of the women picking up a rock as a souvenir. Ling and Lee were arrested in March, found guilty in a closed court last month, are now serving sentences of 12 years hard labor. We will continue to keep an eye on that story.

Well allegations of savage beatings at a boy's reform school decades ago. Now, one of the accused meets one of his accusers for the first time in over 40 years.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: Child abuse allegations that go back a lifetime. Men in their 60s accuse a man in his 80s of beating them repeatedly half a century ago. CNN's Ed Lavandera has the story you will only see right here on CNN.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ED LAVANDERA, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Troy Tidwell lives a quiet life in the Florida panhandle town of Marianna. He retired as a supervisor from the Florida Reform School for Boys in 1982. But today, he is at the center of an abuse investigation. More than 100 men now in their 60s are accusing two former school employees of savagely beating them at that school 50 years ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were children being spanked or beaten?

TROY TIDWELL, FORMER SCHOOL SUPERVISOR: Spanked?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spanked. And the entire time that you were there, were children spanked?

TIDWELL: Never was a boy beat in my presence.

LAVANDERA: For months, Tidwell and his attorneys have refused our request for interviews. But CNN has received a video recording of a 5-hour long deposition, Tidwell questioned by attorneys representing former students are suing him and another former employee along with several Florida state agencies for the alleged abuse. One of those students, Bryant Middleton was in the room face to face with Troy Tidwell for the first time in almost 50 years.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you spanked these boys, did you ever hit them 30 or 40 or more times?

TIDWELL: No, never.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never happened?

TIDWELL: I never did. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you ever tell any of the boys that if they resisted or turned their head or cried out, you were going to start the beating all over again?

TIDWELL: No.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you spanked these boys were this leather strap, did you use all of your power?

TIDWELL: No, no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were the boys usually crying as you were beating them?

TIDWELL: He was what?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Were they crying?

TIDWELL: No.

LAVANDERA: Tidwell's attorney wants the lawsuit filed by the former students thrown out in part because too much time has passed. Tidwell says in the deposition that he was instructed to spank the students when they broke school rules. He says none of the students ever needed medical attention and that the worst injury he ever saw was a small bruise.

But more than a dozen former students at the boy's school have detailed to CNN a much different story.

BRYANT MIDDLETON, FORMER SCHOOL STUDENT: I just remember the sound of the whip coming through the air.

LAVANDERA: They say the beatings Tidwell and other school administrators dished out often left them bloody. They say the beatings took place in this building, still standing today, known to the boys as the White House. Bryant Middleton was there.

MIDDLETON: Mr. Tidwell beat me and beat me and beat me beyond a point of not even knowing what was happening to me.

LAVANDERA: Tidwell is now 85-years-old. According to the deposition, most of his colleagues at the school are dead, leaving him virtually alone in fighting the abuse allegations.

TIDWELL: Years that I worked at that school, I tried to be as fair as I could with those kids. I would want anybody working with mine in a school like that to be the same way.

LAVANDERA: The Florida Department of Law Enforcement says it is investigating but has yet to issue a record. Troy Tidwell says that in his 40 years at the Florida Reform School, he doesn't remember how many boys he spanked and he didn't remember Bryant Middleton who says he still remembers each swat clearly. Ed Lavandera, CNN, reporting.

(END VIDEOTAPE) HOLMES: There is much more for you to get on this incredible story. And our all-platform journalist, Rich Phillips, has been following this story for months now. And you can read his coverage at CNN.com.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: To most Americans, you are the health care system. The fact is, Americans, and I include myself and Michelle and our kids in this, we just do what you tell us to do. That's what we do. We listen to you. We trust you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: That is President Obama talking to the American Medical Association. He's trying to win the organization over to his effort to reform health care. But, you know, there are some folks, like Bill Maher, what he is saying about this type of approach, he is saying essentially that the president needs to man up a little bit. In fact, you know what else Bill Maher said he needs? He said, President Obama needs to be a little more like George W. Bush. We will explain.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: As always, we appreciate you all participating in this show, 3:00 here in the CNN NEWSROOM, usually Rick Sanchez here. T.J. Holmes sitting in for him today.

And we wanted to share some of the comments you all were making about -- just about every story we have had on so far today. So let me take you to one here about the school beating story we just saw a moment ago.

One person saying, "I guess I feel bad about the school beatings but why did they wait so long?" Here, we're talking about them waiting essentially 40 years.

Let's go to the tweet right below that. Saying "It's a dawn of a new time in Iran." Of course, a lot of coverage we've been having here about what's happening there. Saying "The people are standing up to the dictatorship regime. God, let their voices be heard."

And one other story we just brought you, you can turn to the screen there to the right on MySpace, someone simply saying, "I think Letterman made a mistake in apologizing."

Of course, we know the spat between Governor Sarah Palin and Letterman over a joke he made about Palin's daughters.

I want you to look at something else here now. President Obama yesterday trying to get support for his health care plan. He was talking to the American Medical association, that's the same group that fought medical care and fought health care reform in the Clinton administration. The president mounted a charm offensive, praising the AMA and rest of the health care establishment just for making a promise. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: We promised to work together to cut national health care spending by $2 trillion over the next decade relative to what it would have otherwise been. That will bring down cost. That will bring down premiums. That's exactly the kind of cooperation we need.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well there's some critics out there on the left, even, that say the president is wimping out. Take a listen to Bill Maher on his HBO show.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BILL MAHER, TV PERSONALITY: Barack Obama needs to start putting it on the line in fights against the banks, the energy companies and the health care industry. I never thought I would say this, but actually, what he needs in his personality is a little George Bush. He needs to stop worrying about being loved and bring out that smug insufferable swagger that says "suck on it, America."

George Bush had horrible ideas -- torture, deregulation, preemptive war, tax cuts for the rich, but he pushed them through in their full measure, never mind the Congress or the Constitution, the Geneva Convention, Magna Carta, Hammurabi's Code. The point is, he didn't care if it made him unpopular with every human on the planet not named Cletus or Fred Barnes. I'm glad Obama is president, but the audacity of hope part is over. Right now, I'm hoping for a little more audacity.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Well, all right. We're hoping for a little more Bill Maher. Maybe you are too. And you will get that, a little later, I believe I have that right at 6:00 he will be with our Wolf Blitzer in "The Situation Room." But meanwhile, right after the break, we're going to be asking and having a debate about whether or not Bill Maher is right. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right, our Chad Myers, we touched base with him a short time ago about a tornado warning. Now we have some storm damage. That's the same storm in Nashville we talked about?

(WEATHER REPORT)

HOLMES: Well just before the break, we were talking about Bill Maher. We showed you what he had to say about the president, basically calling the president a wimp, if you will, for being too accommodating on health care.

Well joining us from Washington now, Ethan Rome and Donna Smith. Ethan, he's the deputy campaign manager for Health Care for America Now. Donna there is the national co-chair of Progressive Democrats of America. Welcome to you both. Donna, you heard there what Bill Maher had to say. Does he have a point and do you agree to some extent?

DONNA SMITH, PROGRESSIVE DEMOCRATS OF AMERICA: I think he does have a point, T.J. Part of the problem the nurses see in the California Nurses Association where I work, is that we heard candidate Obama say that health care is a basic human right, and we were energized by that, that we finally were looking at getting a progressively financed, guaranteed single standard of care for every single American in this country.

And now we're worried that what we're actually going to get is health insurance and the mandate to purchase health insurance. That's not what people walked the precincts for, got on the phone banks for, went on buses for and traveled all over this nation to say what we wanted.

HOLMES: Well Ethan, let me let you get in here. Does she now, does Donna make a point?

ETHAN ROME, HEALTH CARE FOR AMERICA NOW: I think Donna is right about the fact that people want health care, they want a guarantee of quality, affordable health care for everybody. They want lower costs and they want to keep insurance companies honest, and the president is stepping up to do that.

HOLMES: He is stepping up to do that, but is he doing what he said he said he would do, and in some measure is he trying to make everybody happy, Ethan?

ROME: I think what the president is doing is taking advantage of the fact that everyone in this country agrees we have got to solve America's health care crisis. He's got a plan to do it, and it's to lower costs, keep insurance companies honest and give everybody a choice of coverage and keep their doctor.

HOLMES: Well Donna, I will bring you back in here to this and you can answer anything you heard Ethan say there, but also, does it seems like the president, in your opinion at least is trying to make too many sides happy? There's nothing wrong with bipartisanship, and wanting to have compromise, but he told you one thing, it sounds like during the campaign, and now he's compromising a little too much.

SMITH: Yes, I worry very much, and I think the citizens all over the country worry very much that we were told by a candidate that he didn't like the idea of individual mandates, yet now we're told he may decide he can do that.

We campaigned for him on the basis that he didn't like the idea of taxation of benefits and that John McCain was going to do that. Now we may consider that. He talks about malpractice insurance being a big part of the problem. That's only 2 percent of the cost in this nation. America needs health care, we don't need to bail out the huge health insurance companies. If we want to just do a bailout for Cigna and Aetna and all those companies, let's just do that, like they did Wall Street.

HOLMES: Well Ethan, how about that point? At least you brought up the one on taxing health care, taxing those benefits. That does appear like it's something that is on the table now.

ROME: We don't know yet what Congress is going to do in terms of how they pay for it. The thing to focus on are the goals. What do we want to accomplish? And what folks want is lower costs, keeping insurance companies honest, fix the system we have, because it's broken.

HOLMES: But Ethan, is that there the part of the problem, the part of the problem you just brought up there, we don't know what Congress is going to do? A lot of people are saying the president should tell Congress what to do, instead of making suggestions and guidelines, should tell them this is what I want, instead of putting it in their hands, here's what I would like, now you come up with it.

ROME: I think the president made clear last night in the speech at the AMA, the televised town hall the other day in Green Bay, he's made it clear what he thinks this plan has to be from Congress and it's got a lower cost, keeping insurance companies honest and give people a choice of health care.

HOLMES: Donna, what do you think about the point I was making there to Ethan in that yes, the president can tell them what he would like for them to do, but he's not necessarily telling them they have to do it in Congress. He's essentially letting them write this bill.

SMITH: Yes, I think that's absolutely true. We're seeing some of that reaction today as the Congressional Budget Office gives us some scoring of what even the Kennedy bill might look like, that actually we would still leave 30 million people potentially uninsured at the cost -- at a huge trillion dollar price tag over many years. We want health care in this nation. That's what the people of this nation want, health care, not health insurance. We all know that we can fight to buy health insurance. But that's not what this fight is all about. That's not what this president was all about for all of us. We don't want him to just be a historic president, we want him to be a great president. You don't get there by giving insurance companies everything they want.

HOLMES: All right and Ethan, I'm going to let you have the last word, if you can wrap this up quickly for me. Do you, are you, in any way right now disappointed in the way the president has handled this health care debate, or are you still willing to be a little more patient?

ROME: We're not disappointed in the president. We're excited and thrilled with what we're doing. I agree with Donna on just about everything. We've got to have quality, affordable health care. That's what the president is doing.

HOLMES: All right, Ethan Rome, Donna Smith, I appreciate you both being here. This debate will continue. We will see what comes out of Congress. Both of you guys enjoy the rest of your day. Thank you so much.

SMITH: Thank you very much.

HOLMES: All right, we are about to wrap this thing up in about 20 seconds and hand it over to "The Situation Room."

But I'll share one more comment from our viewers talking about this point, that Bill Maher was making. Saying "Maybe Obama can push his ideas through," on the screen to your right there, "push his ideas through and be popular like another former president, Ronald Reagan."

That's it for us today, T.J. Holmes sitting in for Rick Sanchez. Heading over now over to "The Sit Room" with Wolf Blitzer.