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Campbell Brown
D.C. Trains Collide; Iran on the Brink?; Obama and Health Care
Aired June 22, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Breaking news: Two metro trains collide during rush hour in the nation's capital. How does it happen? We have the very latest.
Is the ayatollah losing his grip on Iran? The whole world have seen these pictures of a young woman dying after getting shot during this weekend's protests. But the streets are still full of defiant crowds.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I saw 10,000 people gathering in (INAUDIBLE)
BROWN: Is Iran on the verge of a new revolution?
Plus, will President Obama's plan fix our ailing health care system?
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Yes, we can. We are going to get this done.
BROWN: Tonight's "Great Debate." We will hear from two doctors. Do we want the government running health care?
And "The Daily Show" in Iran.
BROWN (on camera): So, you're going over there and your job is to make Iran funny. How do you do that?
JASON JONES, "THE DAILY SHOW": First of all, that's gotcha journalism.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Jason Jones is tonight's newsmaker.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. A lot of ground to cover tonight.
And we start with the "Mash-Up," our look at the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed from today. We're watching it all, so you don't have to. We begin tonight with breaking news, a rush hour tragedy in Washington, D.C., as two Metro subway trains collide -- this was just before 5:00 p.m. today -- both barrelling down the same track in opposite directions colliding with such force, one piled on top of the other. You can see the pictures there. Emergency personnel rushed to the scene to pull victims from the wreckage.
But some lives could not be saved. Here's Washington's mayor, Adrian Fenty.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ADRIAN FENTY (D), MAYOR OF WASHINGTON, D.C.: There are scores of people who have been injured. There are already four confirmed fatalities. With the four confirmed fatalities, it is my preliminary understanding that this would then be the deadliest accident in the history of our Metro train transit system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And just in to CNN, rescue workers have recovered another two bodies. Stay with CNN for the latest on this unfolding story.
Defiance and chaos in Iran tonight, as protests continue, despite increasingly stern warnings from the military, thousands facing tear gas and billy clubs today, after a bloody weekend sent images of brutality around the world. Perhaps the most searing of all, the final moments of a young woman named Neda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Everybody around the world who is commenting about Neda is talking about her as the symbol of that opposition in Iran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Her name was Neda, which in the Farsi language means the voice or the call.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is clearly becoming a symbol for people on the street.
OCTAVIA NASR, CNN SENIOR EDITOR FOR ARAB AFFAIRS: She appears to have been a young student who joined thousands of her countrymen to voice her disapproval of Iran's election results.
Eyewitnesses say Basij militiamen hiding on a building roof top shot Neda in her chest, silencing her forever.
And just like that, Neda, who came to the square thinking she's one voice among thousands, turned into the voice of an entire opposition movement.
She's out to demonstrate. She's not carrying any rocks. She's not carrying in arms.
REZA PAHLAVI, FORMER CROWN PRINCE OF IRAN: ... our beloved Neda, whose only sin was the quest for freedom.
BARBARA WALTERS, "THE VIEW": There were so many people hurt in this uprising. But when you can identify with one person, it brings it home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This woman is really becoming the symbol for people on the streets of this entire revolution.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Across Tehran and the world tonight, rooftops dotted with candles lit in Neda's memory.
In a Los Angeles courtroom today, pop singer Chris Brown copped a plea, owning up to assaulting his former girlfriend Rihanna.
BETTY NGUYEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Word of a plea agreement in the case against singer Chris Brown. Brown has been given five years' probation and 180 days of community service. Now, he could be allowed to live and serve in his home state of Virginia. At an earlier hearing, Brown had pleaded not guilty.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If the judge meant what she said, that she wanted Chris Brown to be treated like everyone else, this is pretty typical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Rihanna, did, indeed, go to court and she's hearing from the judge now, getting the details of this plea deal and also of the stay-away order, talking about what Chris Brown can and cannot do and how close he can or cannot get.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: As part of his deal, Brown has to take a yearlong class on domestic violence.
Today, with a flick of his pen, President Obama gave the federal government sweeping new power to regulate big tobacco. The law passed with broad bipartisan support, amid hopes it will discourage the next generation from lighting up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Almost 90 percent of all smokers began at or before their 18th birthday. I know. I was one of these teenagers. And, so, I know how difficult it can be to break this habit when it's been with you for a long time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, you may have noticed the president didn't actually reveal whether he has been able to break that habit once and for all, himself.
And that had Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, shall we say, struggling to stay on message. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
QUESTION: Could you be more clear than you have been about whether the president does still occasionally continue smoking?
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I haven't probed any deeper than the statements that I have given you all in the past several days, that, as he has told me, it's something that he continues to struggle with.
I think -- I think the president has on any number of occasions discussed the struggle that the vice of smoking, what that's -- what that's done to him, and that he struggles with it every day. As I have said throughout the last couple weeks, something that he continues to struggle with.
QUESTION: When you say he still struggles, does that mean he still smokes sometimes? Is that what that means?
GIBBS: I -- I'm not going to parse the president's words on this today.
I got from him that, obviously, this is a struggle that he continues to have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And we will just leave you to read between the lines there.
And now a little viral video candy for all you political nerds, a little bit of tension between our own Paul Begala and one Ms. Meghan McCain. They appeared together on Bill Maher's HBO show. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER")
MEGHAN MCCAIN, CONTRIBUTOR, THEDAILYBEAST.COM: The Obama administration really has to stop completely blaming everything on its predecessor completely. And I am really sick of hearing, oh, well, we were handed this. We were handed this.
I know. Everyone knows. But we need to move on. Same thing the theme with me. We need to move.
BILL MAHER, HOST, "REAL TIME WITH BILL MAHER": You think that's what Obama's doing? You think he's doing...
MCCAIN: I do, to a degree.
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Boy, not to enough of a degree. I'm sorry. Not nearly enough.
Ronald Reagan blamed...
(CROSSTALK)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
BEGALA: In the speech -- in the speech, what President Bush said, one of the things he's had...
(CROSSTALK)
MCCAIN: You know, I wasn't born yet, so I don't know.
BEGALA: Well, that's...
(LAUGHTER)
BEGALA: I wasn't born during the French Revolution, but I know about it.
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
MAHER: He's a mean man, that Paul Begala.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: You clearly know everything, so -- and I'm just the blonde sitting here.
MAHER: No, that's not what he...
BEGALA: Bush did leave a heck of a mess for this guy.
MCCAIN: I'm just -- I'm the one Republican sitting at this table trying to defend it, you know?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ouch. People.
Well, after that processed, we wrap up with the big old warm and fuzzy from "The Today Show," a boy, his basketball, and nothing but net.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Here's a story that might make you smile, a shot you have just got to see to believe. An eighth-grader, Aaron Shutway, recently made this incredible shot in gym class in Broadview Heights, Ohio, doing a forward flip and then nailing his basketball shot from about 60 feet away, and sending his gym class into a frenzy.
Very popular dude now. It is now 7:12. Look at that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The flip alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was great.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Whoa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And it was real. It really happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Very impressive.
And that is the "Mash-Up."
The big question tonight, is the ayatollah losing his grip on Iran? Even if the protesters are crushed, is it too late now to turn back the clock on reform?
Also, the "Great Debate" tonight, can President Obama's plan fix health care?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: I have to repeat and revive an old saying we had from the campaign: Yes, we can. We are going to get this done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Now to tonight's first big question. Is the ayatollah losing his grip on Iran?
We just saw that heartbreaking image from Tehran, a young woman shot to death during a protest over the weekend. The cell phone video has been one of the most viewed clips on YouTube. It is an unforgettable image of revolution. But is it a pivotal moment like these from other revolutions around the world? Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RONALD REAGAN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That final image of Tiananmen Square became a worldwide symbol of revolutionary defiance. But it's important to remember, obviously, China's pro-democracy protest failed 20 years ago. So, what will happen in Iran?
We're going it talk about that with our panel. Tonight's first big question: Is the ayatollah losing his grip on Iran?
Fareed Zakaria, host of CNN's "FAREED ZAKARIA GPS," with us tonight, Parag Khanna, senior fellow at the New America Foundation, and CNN senior political analyst Jeffrey Toobin joining us as well.
So, let's bottom-line that question. Is the ayatollah losing his grip a little bit, Fareed?
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, there's no question that he is weaker today than he's ever been before, because his authority has been questioned by very senior members from within the establish, Rafsanjani, who was a president himself, who is the head of a very important constitutional body, Mousavi, who is a former prime minister, Khatami, the former presidents.
These are big figures. These are not street protesters. So there is a kind of a factionalization of the state itself. Now, Khamenei still control the guns and, best we know, he controls the money. Remember, these are the two forces they have going for them, the army and paramilitary and the oil money.
So, at the end of the day, he's probably going to win. But it's going to look very different, I think, than it has for the last 10 years. It's going to be a more divided state and one that has to use a lot more repression to keep things together.
BROWN: So, bad news. I mean, repression, you see the direction they're going, not opening it up and allowing more freedom.
ZAKARIA: Precisely. Precisely.
BROWN: What do you think, Parag?
PARAG KHANNA, NEW AMERICA FOUNDATION: Well, Khamenei must surely what we already know here, which is that Rafsanjani and others are already getting together and sketching out what the next regime is going to look like.
How much power will the supreme leader have? How -- what will the balance of power be or separation of power, as we might say -- although I'm sure Jeff can comment more on separation of powers -- but between the secular authorities and the divine and so forth. That does have to be re-mapped.
No doubt the ayatollah controls the guns. And Rafsanjani, however does have a lot of money, himself. The rumor is that he's obviously been using some of that to spur and support some of the protests. So, clearly, there's a lot of factionalism here.
BROWN: But do you think there is -- does it feel like there's a pivotal moment where it could either way at this point? And, obviously, we have no way of knowing. We're gets bits and pieces from the outside.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: The heroism of students, the heroism of protesters is something I think we respond to particularly well here in the United States.
But my money is usually on the tanks. And it doesn't seem like major changes have come yet. And I don't see, at least, where they're coming, at least in the near term.
BROWN: Do -- does -- OK, let me throw this out there. Social media, because that's how we're getting so much of our information, Facebook and Twitter and all this stuff, is that a game-changer in many ways, because you can't control the message, no matter how repressive the government? ZAKARIA: It's a game-changer in the sense you can't put Humpty Dumpty back together again. You can't just pretend -- remember -- I think Jeff is exactly right. We remember the successful ones. But, as you point out, there are many unsuccessful ones, Tiananmen Square, 1956 in Hungary, 1968 in Czechoslovakia.
The shah of Iran, Khomeini, the guy who eventually overturned him -- overthrew him, tried once before about 10 years earlier. Didn't work. He got crushed. So, what will make this a game-changer? It's not going to be Twitter.
I have an enormous respect for what Twitter has enabled to happen, and it will bear witness to this, and it will allow for some degree of organization. But ultimately the real decision is, will the regime decide that they're willing to be brutal enough to repress it?
If you are willing to be brutal, you can almost always repress this stuff, because human beings are human beings. You tell them, you get -- you stand in these squares and protest, and you will be mowed down, many fewer people come out in those central squares.
BROWN: Parag, do you agree with that?
KHANNA: I think that in the -- you can have a period of chaos that can last for weeks, months, even years.
I point again to Ukraine, a case where five years after the Orange Revolution, which we backed, lots of students, lots of young people out there, the security forces eventually were worn down morally and physically. They just refused to open fire at some point.
And, yet, five years later, it's still a government. We don't know really who's in charge. Any given week, after any given election, we still don't know. And the opacity of the Iranian system dwarfs that of any other in the world. So, I can imagine a really sort of a hectic...
TOOBIN: Count me, too, as a Twitter skeptic.
You're talking about 5,000 people, 50,000 people on Twitter. This is a country of millions and millions of people. This is a big country. This is much bigger than Iraq. This is a big, sophisticated country with a big military. I just think ultimately Twitter is going to be a curiosity, but not the game-changer...
(CROSSTALK)
ZAKARIA: Right.
The game-changer, Campbell, is that there is a division in the -- among the very powerful elites of the country. So, if we see a change, if we see a shift, if this starts snowballing -- and it could -- it will be not so much -- I hate to say this.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: From the bottom down.
ZAKARIA: Not from the bottom down. It won't be these heroic students. And God knows they're heroic. But it will be because the ayatollahs, you know, broke with Khamenei, the senior leader, because important members in the government did. Some members of the army decided that this was not the right thing.
That's where we have got to see real cracks and further cracks.
BROWN: All right, we will end it there.
Parag, Fareed, and Jeff, thanks so much.
And you can expect tough questions on Iran for President Obama at his Rose Garden news conference. That's tomorrow afternoon. CNN will bring you the whole thing live beginning at 12:30 Eastern time.
"The Daily Show" in Iran -- a look at what it's like to go from Jon Stewart to Tehran, tonight's newsmaker, comedian Jason Jones.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONES: First impression, I studied Arabic for 10 months, only to learn that they don't speak Arabic.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: So, that is just wasted, wasted space in my brain. When am I ever going to use that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker is one part of a team not afraid to take on sacred cows. It is all in the name of laughs on "The Daily Show With Jon Stewart." This time, instead of poking fun at powerful politicians or the press, Jason Jones had a far more challenging assignment, covering the Iranian election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART")
JONES: As I touched down at Khomeini Airport, on my 36th birthday, I was completely alone, no American embassy, no alcohol, not even exposed ankles to leer at.
I have a wife and children. Please don't hurt me.
Even leaving the hotel presented potential risk.
Red wire. Blue wire.
But I assured my producer, Tim Greenberg, that, as long as he was with me, there was nothing to fear.
(LAUGHTER) (END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, first of all, how do you get a visa? How do you explain to the Iranian government who you are, what "The Daily Show" is?
JONES: You lie.
BROWN: And say what?
JONES: You say, I'm a journalist. Actually, I didn't bring it, but I actually have a journalist card.
BROWN: So, that's what you said?
JONES: Well, no, we didn't lie. We said we are a satirical news program. We angle in a comedic way. And they said, interesting.
BROWN: Hmm.
JONES: So, you're a journalist? And we said, yes.
BROWN: Yes.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: And they gave us a card. It's crazy, because America does not give us journalist cards.
BROWN: No, not by any means.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: So, how long you have been planning this?
JONES: The whole thing had been planned for about a year. And it was actually on -- sort of on the American side holding up things...
BROWN: Yes?
JONES: ... with no diplomatic or -- relations with the country.
So, we were not allowed to bring -- from the U.S., they didn't allow us to bring any electronics into the country. I don't know why. Because they're Treasury rules. No cell phones, nothing. And, so, basically, we had to do everything old school.
BROWN: So, what was it like? What's your -- we have so many misconceptions about this place.
JONES: Yes.
BROWN: So, what were your general impressions?
JONES: First impression, I studied Arabic for 10 months, only to learn that they don't speak Arabic.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: So, that is just wasted, wasted space in my brain. When am I ever going to use that?
Impressions. Impressions.
BROWN: Were people warm? Were they friendly to you?
JONES: In a word, no.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: No, of course, they were -- they were wonderful. But there's no real -- there's really no difference between the general American and the general Iranian.
They all want the same thing. They want peace. They want a happy family life and live free. And they wonder -- I will tell you this about the Iranians. They will not let you go anywhere without drinking tea. So, what would take maybe three hours to shoot an interview took seven, because they wanted tea afterwards and before.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: So, before you go, just have some tea.
Like, I have -- I have already had 12 glasses of tea today. I need to move on.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: They're like, don't insult me.
All right.
BROWN: So, you're going over there and your job is to make Iran funny. How do you do that?
JONES: You know, first of all, that's gotcha journalism.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Secondly, there's sort of humor in everything. And some jokes may be offensive, but most jokes, we like to think ours are a little bit illuminating.
BROWN: And, once you got there, you had freedom to move around or not really? You were pretty well-managed?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: We had a fixer. That's what we call them over there.
BROWN: Yes. JONES: And they orchestrate where you go. We asked him ahead of time, basically, where would you like to go? We -- we coordinated back and forth. There's a lot of paperwork.
The only trouble we ran into is, we were in sort of a holy city, Esfahan, and doing our usual games that we play. And we went in to pick up just some random paperwork. And our fixer came rushing out. And he was like, OK, it's time to go.
And we're like, what do you mean?
He was like, we just got kicked out of the city.
So, we had to rush back, get our luggage from the hotel and check out.
BROWN: No real explanation?
JONES: No real reason, no, no.
BROWN: No.
JONES: Not at all.
But, let me say, the fixer was great. Like, at any time, we -- he was so accommodating, in the sense of like, hey, there's a chess game going on over there. Do you mind if I like -- can I -- can you just ask those guys that I -- I'm going to come over and wreck their game and show them how to play checkers?
And he's like -- goes over to them, yells at them for a second. And, he's like, OK, it's fine.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: God knows what he told them.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: I know. Do it or die.
BROWN: So, was this your idea?
JONES: It was kind of a coordinated idea. You know, we -- we -- we -- listen, before all this took off, like, it was a place that wasn't reported on. Very few Western journalists went over there, did anything about it.
And it seemed really interesting to me, like a place that just is shrouded in mysteries -- and shrouds.
BROWN: Do you ever feel unsafe at any point in time?
JONES: No, not even close to being feeling unsafe.
BROWN: Really? JONES: It was just -- it was like any other city. It was like Chicago. Like, it was, like -- I feel more scared in New York sometimes than I did in Tehran.
BROWN: Really?
JONES: Yes. It was -- everyone goes about their business. And they're like Americans. They really are.
BROWN: And you have had some great material on over the last few days that I have seen...
JONES: Thank you.
BROWN: ... and a lot more to come this week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART")
JONES: So, when did you start hating Americans?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hating Americans? What do you mean? Hate it?
JONES: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Never.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, no, we never hate them.
JONES: We're just trying to do a thing here where we say, Iranians, like, hate Americans. Can you just do that for me?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You would like me to hate?
JONES: Yes, could you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To hate?
JONES: Yes, please?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'm not hate of Americans.
JONES: That's not...
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: What was the highlight of your trip?
JONES: Tough question. You and your gotcha journalism again. You busted me again.
(LAUGHTER)
JONES: Highlight of the trip was probably walking down the -- what do you call it? The -- the airway -- the tram where you go get on the plane to go home.
BROWN: Yes. Yes.
JONES: That was really nice.
BROWN: You have two little kids.
JONES: I do.
BROWN: I'm with you.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: And it was also my birthday there. And a family, like, baked me a cake. And it was -- it was actually really sweet.
BROWN: But partying and celebrating in Iran not quite the same?
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: It was the first time since my 18th birthday that I did not have an alcoholic beverage in my system.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Duly noted.
JONES: A sober birthday. Very sad.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: The highlight.
Jason Jones, thanks very much. You're going to have great stuff this week. We will be watching all week on "The Daily Show."
Congrats. Good job.
JONES: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Tomorrow, our newsmaker is David Axelrod, senior adviser to President Obama and of course one the key players as the administration tries to get its message out, a full plate of topics to get into right here with David Axelrod. That's tomorrow night.
Tonight's "Great Debate": Can President Obama's plan fix health care? We're going to hear from two doctors with two very different points of view.
Plus, riot police running from protesters in Iran -- all caught on tape. It's tonight's breakout.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Tonight's "Great Debate": Will President Obama's plan fix health care in this country? The president gave his old motto new meaning today. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: to those who -- here in Washington who've grown accustomed to sky-is-falling prognoses and the certainties that we cannot get this done, I have to repeat and revive an old saying we had from the campaign: Yes, we can. We are going to get this done.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And, of course, on the other side, you also know what they're saying.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN CORNYN ((R), TEXAS: I think when people find out that essentially what they're being given is a choice to have the government direct which doctor they see, whether they can see a doctor, or when they can see a doctor, they're going to turn this down and say let's get to business solving the problem and that is covering about 12 million people who don't have coverage and please leave the rest of us alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Enough with the politicians. Let's hear from some doctors right now.
In Los Angeles tonight is Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, a board-certified internist who backs the president's plan. Dr. Eric Novack is in Phoenix tonight. He's an orthopedic surgeon and a senior fellow with Americans for Prosperity which fights against government-controlled health care.
We want your opinion too, so vote by calling the number on the bottom of your screen. First, we're going to have a 30-second opening statement from each doctor.
Dr. Rodriguez, will the president's plan fix health care? What do you think?
DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: Well, Campbell, I think that the president's plan is a very good first step toward fixing a health care that is really on the precipice of complete disaster. Forty-six million Americans are living in this country without health care, and 25 million are sub-optimally insured.
Now we know that 50 percent of Americans that go into bankruptcy go into bankruptcy because of medical issues. Therefore, I think we really need to stop looking so much at the economics of health care and realize that making Americans healthy is good for everyone including the economy.
BROWN: Dr. Novack?
DR. ERIC NOVACK, ORTHOPEDIC SURGEON: Well, the problem here, of course, is that we don't really know what the president's plan is because he hasn't really shared it with us. From what we do know from what's come out of Congress thus far, there's really very little in this that does anything to actually protect the rights of patients and their families to remain in control of their health and health care. And all we have seen essentially are endless trillions of dollars in additional unfunded liabilities in a system that I would agree with Dr. Rodriguez, can't handle it.
BROWN: And gentlemen, let me ask you both because we are speaking in generalities and fairness here. We don't have a lot of the details, but we do know the basic idea here.
And, Dr. Rodriguez, what do you say to critics who charge that what we're talking about, what we're debating is really socialized medicine?
RODRIGUEZ: Well --
BROWN: That people envision hours of waiting to get into, you know, to get to see a doctor, the rationing of our health care?
RODRIGUEZ: What I say is that people are already waiting. People that are uninsured are already waiting hours to see physicians and not even their own physicians. And secondly, you're speaking to a Cuban- American, so I -- if there's anybody that is anti-socialism or anti- communism, it's me.
This proposed program does not say that every American has to take this health care. On the contrary, I think it's going to provide much more competition. It provides a health care exchange, where the government provides a program. Other insurances that qualify can belong to that program and Americans can choose any health insurance that they want as long as they can afford it.
BROWN: Dr. Novack, go ahead.
NOVACK: Well, the problem here, of course, is what Dr. Rodriguez is saying, there's nothing. We have seen absolutely no evidence that anything that the president or the Democrat leaders in Congress have proposed will do anything to address the issues that he just mentioned.
The president was in Chicago last week speaking to the American Medical Association where he spoke about the incredible importance of evidence-based medicine. Now, don't we think that before we take away the health care that 250-plus million Americans already enjoy and force them or coerce them into a different style system that there ought to be some actual real evidence demonstrating that the reforms he's proposing will work?
RODRIGUEZ: Well, Dr. Novack, first of all, I don't think that there is time for evidence-based medicine when it comes to health care. I mean, you're talking about five to ten years into the future. NOVACK: But the president is saying that we need to actually have evidence for care but there shouldn't be evidence that might change the health care for 250 Americans?
RODRIGUEZ: What the president -- first of all, nobody's insurance has to change at all. So we don't have to change the health care for one American, let alone 250 Americans unless they choose. And there's no greater choice than to choose to be part of this plan.
NOVACK: But Dr. Rodriguez, you haven't seen the plan. And from what we know about what the president seems to favor, up to 100 million plus people who currently have private insurance might find themselves forced into some kind of a public plan.
RODRIGUEZ: I don't see how anybody can be forced into any of it.
NOVACK: Now if as an employer which I am, I give it up --
RODRIGUEZ: And so am I --
NOVACK: So if I say that it's no longer cost effective for me to be able to have insurance for my employees or myself, my employees are effectively forced out of the system and into the government system.
RODRIGUEZ: You know what --
BROWN: All right. Let me ask you. Let me just interrupt for a second.
And Dr. Novack, again, without getting into the specifics which we don't have all the details on, you heard what Dr. Rodriguez said about the number of bankruptcies. And there's plenty of evidence to suggest this, that 53 percent or two-thirds of all bankruptcies in this country due to people's medical bills.
RODRIGUEZ: That's right.
NOVACK: It's actually --
BROWN: I mean, it's clear that the current system isn't working.
NOVACK: I would agree with you.
BROWN: So why not be open to trying this?
NOVACK: Well, first of all, Campbell, the study that showed -- that claim to demonstrate the number of medical bankruptcies -- the number of bankruptcies due to medical conditions was actually done by people who are the most avowed people in favor of Canadian-style single payer health care. And a lot of people have disputed that.
BROWN: So you think the current system is working?
NOVACK: I think the system has serious flaws. But the question of what's being discussed is the health care that you enjoy, your children enjoy, my children enjoy, is essentially at risk. So what we're trying to -- what we're saying is that...
RODRIGUEZ: But excuse me, Dr. Novack.
NOVACK: ... we should throw all of this away because of a plan that might work? I think they are pretty helpful.
BROWN: OK. Go ahead, Dr. Rodriguez.
RODRIGUEZ: You know, I think it's very ironic that you say the health care that your children enjoy, the health care that I enjoy, but there are 47 million people and children that don't enjoy any health care whatsoever.
BROWN: All right, gentlemen --
RODRIGUEZ: Now who is going to protect them?
BROWN: Very quickly because we're almost out of time. I do this at the end of every debate. And I'm going to ask you, is there anywhere where you think you can agree, both of you, that we could find a little common ground on this issue? One incremental step that you could both agree on?
RODRIGUEZ: Well, listen, I think that we probably both agree that we need more primary care physicians in this country and we need more gatekeepers that actually take care and prevent the illnesses that drain our medical system. So I think, A, those physicians just like teachers should probably be paid more so that we have more of them.
BROWN: Right. Dr. Novack?
NOVACK: I guess I wouldn't find common ground there. What I would say is that we need health care reform that is based first and foremost on the rights of patients and not one that is being driven by the same old entrenched interests that are cutting deals with the White House.
BROWN: OK. All right, gentlemen, appreciate your time tonight, Dr. Rodriguez and Dr. Novack to you as well.
RODRIGUEZ: Thank you, Campbell. Thank you.
NOVACK: Thank you very much.
BROWN: And here's, of course, how you voted in tonight's "Great Debate." Seventy percent say President Obama's plan will fix health care. Thirty percent say no, it won't. This is always not a scientific poll, just a snapshot from our viewers who called in.
Tomorrow night's "Great Debate," is the stimulus plan working? Two sides here to hash that out. That's tomorrow night.
Hillary Clinton's fractured elbow. "Jon & Kate Plus Eight" plus divorce, the big announcement. And great white serial killers? We're going to explain all that in tonight's "Download."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And now we got a look at some of the other must see stories of the day. Here is "AMERICAN MORNING"'s John Roberts with tonight's "Download."
Hey, John.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR, "AMERICAN MORNING": Hey, Campbell, good to be here tonight.
Officials at the scene of the metro train crash in Washington said that the death toll is now up to six. Rescue workers have pulled two more bodies from the wreckage. Two trains were headed in the same direction when they collided just after 5:00 p.m. Eastern Time where it's the height of rush hour. Federal investigators are now on the scene of what they're calling Washington's worst metro accident ever.
Secretary of State Hillary Clinton is back on the job. The White House released these pictures of Secretary Clinton outside the Oval Office today with her arm in a sling. The secretary broke her elbow in a fall last week. She had surgery over the weekend and has canceled this week's scheduled trip to Italy and Greece.
Proof that sharks may be more "Jack the Ripper" than "Jaws," researchers think the great white stalk their prey like serial killers, lurking in the dark surprising young, helpless victims when they're alone and then learning from each attack. The big difference, though, between a shark and a serial killer, motive. Great whites hunt to survive. The shark researcher in a criminal profile combined on the study.
And it had to happen. Reality TV fans have been speculating for weeks. Now there is word that the stars of "Jon & Kate Plus Eight" are, in fact, splitting up.
"People" magazine reports Jon and Kate Gosselin filed divorce papers today in Pennsylvania. No word yet on what that means for their eight kids or their show. But it could probably be summed up in one word, Campbell, ratings.
BROWN: Oh, God, those poor kids. I'm furious at these people. I mean, they've had cameras stalking their children for how long now and then they're splitting up?
ROBERTS: I have to confess I have never had the time nor the inclination...
BROWN: To watch the show?
ROBERTS: ... to watch the show.
BROWN: I haven't actually seen the show either, but like I know everything about them because it's all we talk about.
ROBERTS: I studiously avoid getting caught in that trap.
BROWN: All right. John Roberts for us tonight. And you're going to be back a little bit later with a little Bon Jovi interview to share.
ROBERTS: A little bit. Yes, we got that for "AMERICAN MORNING" tomorrow. I'll be filling in for Anderson tonight, so we'll see you at 10:00 p.m. Eastern.
BROWN: Awesome. All right, John.
Born in Tehran, she stars in a new movie about the violence in Iran's recent past. Tonight, we get her take on this new crisis. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHOHREH AGHDASHLOO, IRANIAN AMERICAN ACTRESS: The pro-reform protesters have decided not to give in. They are determined to go ahead, and they are willing to pay any price for this no matter what to gain their freedom.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We are back. At our newsmaker tonight, stars in a film opening across the U.S. this week. The timing of it is extraordinary. "The Stoning of Soraya M." is based on a true story. The stoning death of an Iranian woman in her village in 1986. The woman's aunt risked her own life to share the story with a journalist.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why should I listen to you?
SHOHREH AGHDASHLOO, "THE STORY OF SORAYA M.": (INAUDIBLE) do it first. You should know why you should listen. Voices of women do not matter here. I want you to take my voice with you.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And the aunt is played by Shohreh Aghdashloo. Today she is among those watching in horror as new real life violence in Iran claims more victims including the woman known simply as Neda.
Shohreh Aghdashloo joins me right now from Los Angeles. Shohreh, welcome to you.
SHOHREH AGHDASHLOO, IRANIAN AMERICAN ACTRESS: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
BROWN: We appreciate your time. And I want to get your reaction to some of what's going on. You know, the whole world has been so moved by the video of this young woman who was killed while protesting in Iran. And I know you say that you have watched the video over and over. How has it affected you?
AGHDASHLOO: It's devastated me. I have a young daughter. She's only 20 years old and most of these people who are under the age of 30 who are running on the streets of Iran, who are fighting for their basic rights and who are getting killed are almost the same age as my daughter. So you can imagine what kind of a feeling I can have for Neda.
BROWN: And you left Iran as a young woman but you've been in touch with family and friends there. What's happening to them? What are they telling you?
AGHDASHLOO: Well, after all, what we're seeing now is that regardless of what is happening to them, regardless of all those horrifying pictures and bits of films that we are receiving all around the world, including Neda's bit of film in which she dies in front of the camera, despite of all these things, the pro-reform protesters have decided not to give in. They are determined to go ahead and they are willing to pay any price for this no matter what to gain their freedom and their rights.
BROWN: And I know you say you've also been watching so many of these videos on-line YouTube, that people are posting from Iran right now. And obviously, unlike a lot of us, you can understand what the people in the videos are saying. Share with us a little bit about what's been most striking to you.
AGHDASHLOO: The two that have been the most striking were the one that -- the first one was when they are clubbing an old woman. As we know, they're doing it now. And we see the woman being clubbed but we hear voices in the background.
There's a man who's also being beaten at the same time but is shouting -- (Speaking in a foreign language) for God's sake, don't hit the old woman with club. That was horrible.
And the second one was the one that they attacked people during the night in their own homes. And, of course, it's dark.
We can't see, but we hear voices. We hear commotions. We hear kids crying. We hear women shouting, asking for mercy, asking for forgiveness. But -- and it all happens in the dark. It is, I cannot tell you how we feel when we see these pictures and these clips of films.
BROWN: It certainly stays with you. Your movie, you portray this character who won't stay silent, who tries to speak out against violence. Do you relate to these women in Iran as they try to speak out for their rights?
AGHDASHLOO: It is amazing how this time this film has turned timely now regarding what's happening in Iran. I played Zahra. My character approaches a reporter and tells the reporter her story and what happened to her and the injustices that happened to her niece, and the reporter tells the world.
Same thing is happening now. All those Zahras including Mr. Mousavi's wife, Zahra Rahnavard, are on the streets of Iran asking for their rights, shouting for transparency and law. And the irony is that they're telling their stories to the reporters, be it professional reporters or amateur ones, to take their stories across their borders and to send the message across.
BROWN: Do you or is there one thing that you think people maybe don't understand about women in Iran?
AGHDASHLOO: Maybe how strong they are and how proud they are.
BROWN: Well, it has -- it has been amazing to watch these images, I know, for me. And I can't even imagine what it must be like for you given your connection and especially having so many family and friends there.
We really appreciate your time tonight. And certainly good luck with this movie. The timing of it bringing to light so many of these issues is so important.
Shohreh Aghdashloo joining us again from Los Angeles. Thank you so much.
AGHDASHLOO: Thank you.
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" up at the top of the hour.
Plus, riot police running from protesters. That is tonight's breakout.
And Michelle Obama joining forces with Jon Bon Jovi. Find out what the first lady and the rock star have in common.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Every night, we bring you a breakout story from around the globe, the kind of story that we believe breaks through all the noise out there. And tonight's breakout, the most dramatic images and newest developments from Iran.
Our vast network of sources combined with a steady stream of iReports flowing into our world headquarters has allowed us to continue giving us the best pictures and perspective everywhere, as our Ivan Watson showed my colleague, Tony Harris. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Let's take a look at some of the video that we've gotten from outside of Tehran, Tony. This is coming from Tabriz. We don't know exactly when it was shot. It was during the course of this week, though. And it shows riot police fleeing from protesters, not in Tehran, but in the northwestern city of Tabriz, an Azerbaijan province.
It's very difficult for us to know just what's going on in Tehran right now because of the media blackout outside of Tehran in the provinces. We really have no idea. This is a clue to the turmoil that may be going on in some of these other key cities around the country.
Finally, I want to show you something very important. These are a series of photos taken that have emerged in the course of the past day of clerics. You see the white turbans there. Three men. Clerics with demonstrators side by side with them apparently trying to protect them from the security forces.
TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Yes.
WATSON: And that's a very important sign for a country that calls itself the Islamic Republic of Iran.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Ivan Watson grabbing up all those images for us.
Coming up, she's something of a rock star in her own right. Well, now, First Lady Michelle Obama is hanging out with a real rocker, Jon Bon Jovi. He's going to tell us why in a CNN exclusive interview, part of our "Political Daily Briefing" when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Time now for our "Political Daily Briefing." John Roberts is back.
And, John, we know the president loves a good burger run. But this time he decided to sweeten things up a bit.
ROBERTS: He did. You know, he loves his burgers but even the president needs a dessert break once in a while.
President Obama and first daughters Sasha and Malia making a trip to a local custard parlor in a pre-Father's Day outing. The winning flavor, vanilla. Malia's in a waffle cone, Sasha's in a cup, and the president's with hot fudge and toasted almonds. And that's the reason why he works out so much.
And the gang didn't forget about first dog, Bo, bringing him back a special frozen treat, puppy pops.
BROWN: I've been to that place. Really good too.
ROBERTS: There's a lot of places I need to go now based on where the president has been.
BROWN: He knows all the cool spots. All right.
ROBERTS: We have Ben's Chili Bowl.
BROWN: Yes. Michelle Obama also was out in California today with a special message. Tell us about that.
ROBERTS: She was. First Lady Michelle Obama joined forces with California's first lady, Maria Shriver. They were in San Francisco to kick off the United We Serve Initiative focusing on the president's call for greater community service. Along with volunteers, the first lady helped refurbish a playground at a local elementary school. Later on, she took her message at the 2009 National Conference on Volunteering and Service. Appearing with her among others, rock star Jon Bon Jovi. I spoke with him exclusively about his volunteer efforts and why he doesn't draw attention to what he does.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON BON JOVI, ROCK STAR: Well, I don't think that the need for the media spotlight is why I do this. I do it because we're making a difference. I do it because it feels good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Join me tomorrow morning on AMERICAN MORNING to see the full interview with Jon Bon Jovi. That will be in our 8:00 a.m. Eastern hour.
BROWN: We'll not miss it. I love him.
ROBERTS: He's great. Yes, he really is.
BROWN: Yes. John Roberts for us. We'll see you tomorrow morning, John, and, of course, at 10:00 filling in for Anderson as well.
That's it for us tonight. "LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.
