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Campbell Brown
Michael Jackson Dies at Age 50
Aired June 25, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: Breaking news tonight: Michael Jackson is dead, the king of pop rushed to the hospital in cardiac arrest. The world reacts -- up-to-the-minute details on the breaking news, the death of an American icon, Michael Jackson.
Hi, everybody. Anderson Cooper here with me for our special coverage tonight, the sudden death of Michael Jackson making headlines around the world.
The pop star apparently went into cardiac arrest at his home in Los Angeles. He was rushed to UCLA Medical Center, the Los Angeles coroner confirming to CNN he did die at age 50 this afternoon.
Here now a look at some of the most memorable images of his career.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Campbell, when you see just the length of time Michael Jackson was in the public eye for and the length -- the breadth of his talent, extraordinary.
BROWN: And his life was so fascinating, so controversial, and, frankly, bizarre, that we often forget how amazing a performer he was and how incredible the music is.
COOPER: Yes.
We have been getting a lot of details just in the last few minutes alone. And we expect more details over this next hour.
Let's check in with Ted Rowlands right now. She's live in Los Angeles at UCLA Medical Center, where Michael Jackson was taken this afternoon.
Ted, what is the latest there?
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Anderson and Campbell, we're still awaiting word from the family and/or medical professionals from inside the UCLA Medical Center.
We have not heard anything publicly from them. We have heard from Michael Jackson's attorney, who is inside with the family. He says that family members are in there in a room secluded and they are obviously upset and grieving.
Oxman said that Michael Jackson collapsed in his rented home, which is about six minutes away by vehicle, about two miles away from here at about 12:20 this afternoon. And then he was pronounced dead here at the UCLA Medical Center just about two hours later.
Oxman also said that this will be a case like Nicole -- Anna Nicole Smith. He alleges that family members have been trying to help Michael Jackson in recent months. It was an extraordinary interview that Michael -- that Brian Oxman, the family attorney, did with CNN just about an hour ago, alleging that the family had been trying to get Michael Jackson help and that he was having trouble with prescription medication.
There is -- undoubtedly after the autopsy will be an investigation, a full investigation. At this point, though, cardiac arrest is the cause of death. Obviously, from here on out, there will be extensive investigation as to everything that went into the death of Michael Jackson.
COOPER: Well, Ted, I just want to mention -- the interview you were just talking about, I just want to read something that the spokesperson said a short time ago to CNN.
"He said the people who have surrounded him," him being Michael Jackson, "have been enabling him. If you think that the case of Anna Nicole Smith was in abuse, it is nothing in comparison to what we have seen taking place in Michael Jackson's life."
That's in stark contrast to kind of things we normally hear from a Jackson family spokesperson.
ROWLANDS: Absolutely.
Over the years, covering Michael Jackson, every time something came up, whether it was when he showed up in his pajama bottoms during the child molestation trial in Santa Barbara County obviously dazed or when he was taken to the hospital previously, the company line from the family, from everybody, from the spokespeople were: Michael is fine. These rumors are false.
Today, obviously, in a distressed mode, the family attorney saying that clearly wasn't the case, especially over the last few months. Jackson relocated here to Los Angeles, preparing for that upcoming tour. He's been in Los Angeles since about May, moving from Las Vegas.
And according to his attorney, he may have been abusing prescription drugs, which may, of course -- a big may -- have helped lead to his death, but extraordinary information coming from inside the Jackson camp, and, as you alluded to, something you usually do not hear.
COOPER: Yes, the spokesman said he had a broken vertebra and had broken his leg from a fall on stage.
And we're looking at a live shot now. That's outside the hospital. How many people do you think have gathered there? Ted, what is the scene? Are they just kind of milling around waiting for word? Or why are they there? ROWLANDS: Well, it's a strange scene, as you might imagine. As you can see, there are -- there were hundreds of people gathering steadily over the last few hours. And they have been growing in numbers.
There's a lot of media, of course. National and international media, from around the world have outlets in Los Angeles. So, immediately people were dispatched here. But what's extraordinary is the amount of public -- members of the public that have been gathering here, gathering here, just wanting, I guess, to be here during this time.
There's been no public statements. And the mood is very bizarre as well, because it's relatively quiet, people snapping a lot of photos of the crowd, but, otherwise, sort of a somber, quiet scene here.
COOPER: All right, Ted Rowlands reporting from the scene.
We're going to have continuing coverage really throughout this evening.
And, again, that interview that Brian Oxman, the family spokesman, gave earlier to CNN is really just remarkable to hear, a family spokesman at this point in time saying that it would be -- this is a case of abuse of medications. Point blank, that is what he said.
BROWN: And we will be talking to Sanjay Gupta shortly, who may be able to explain or a little bit or elaborate on whether there could be any connection to the sort of medications we think he may have been taking with the cardiac arrest.
COOPER: Yes.
BROWN: Let's bring in CNN's Larry King. He and Michael have known each other over the years. Larry has interviewed him. And Larry is out on the set of "LARRY KING LIVE" in Los Angeles.
And, Larry, you interviewed him in 1970, when he was 12 years old?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Yes. It was on the radio, my radio show in Miami. The Jackson 5 were coming through.
I don't remember if they were playing a club or a concert. And they came in. I couldn't get over this adorable little boy who stole the show. They were all fine and they're all personalities in their own rights, but the show was it.
And the remarks afterwards were, who is this kid? And then of course later to see him go on to that -- the incredible fame that is almost unbelievable -- I saw him perform live at RFK Stadium to a packed house in Washington. I was scheduled -- I had various things where I would get into his life somewhere.
I was going to testify at that trial back in 2005. I had overheard a conversation at the next table at a restaurant. And one of the people there, a lawyer, had said that the people involved were trying to extort Michael. So, I had some information, so they offered it -- they asked me to come up.
But the judge wouldn't let me testify because it was hearsay. I had heard it from someone else at a table at a restaurant. Then, in 2007 -- they just showed that picture with him -- that's when Jesse Jackson has these annual awards. And I was lucky enough to get one and Michael got one. And so we were at the same table.
And that was the last time I saw him. And as an added bit of information, the concert he was scheduled to give in London was postponed one week while he was still reversing. And Elizabeth Taylor, his dear friend, was scheduled to fly from here to there for the opening night of that concert.
And that, of course, Campbell and Anderson, is now all history.
BROWN: And, Larry, you know, for someone who is that massive a celebrity, he was still such a mystery on so many levels. I mean, give us a sense -- you last saw him, I know, a couple of years ago. Give us a sense of what he was like.
KING: Well, he was -- strange is a word. Here's an enormous talent who on stage was a projection and off stage was inward.
In other words, you had to reach in to get some -- he would not have been -- he was when he was 12 a great interview. He would not have been, I don't think, a great interview now. He was hesitant. He was shy.
Of course, he was extremely bright. You buy the Beatles catalogue at a good price and get to get all that music residuals later that come to you later, that isn't bad thinking.
I went -- one other thing. I went to a hotel once where he was staying here in L.A. And they were trying to arrange that we would interview him for "LARRY KING LIVE." It never came off.
But in the room were his two little children then and huge statues of Batman and Superman. And I looked at them and said, "Batman and Superman."
And he said something like, "I love them."
BROWN: Wow.
Larry...
KING: He was different.
BROWN: I -- we can't let you go without asking, frankly, about Farrah Fawcett.
I mean, I'm sure your show was going to be devoted to her tonight until this happened. KING: It was.
BROWN: I mean, Farrah Fawcett died on the same day as Michael Jackson.
KING: What a sad -- what an incredible -- you couldn't write this.
And, of course, Farrah was expected. That was not unexpected. In fact, there was a vigil around the clock at her bedside. So, it wasn't a shock. It was very sad. You felt very bad, so young and really talented person. But she had this cancer for a long time.
And we had some excellent guests scheduled, including Dominick Dunne, who, by the way, was in the hospital with her in Germany, where she went many times to get treatment to try to save her life, treatment that eventually failed.
But, then, this afternoon, that gets blown out of the well. And Michael Jackson takes over. We will make reference to her tonight. But we're going to have -- it's an all Michael Jackson night. I'm going to do two shows live, at 9:00 and at midnight. And we will have Celine Dion on.
Cher is going to be on. And what can you say? I mean, it's such a paralyzing story. And there's so many depths to it. Of course, the investigation, as was just pointed out by Ted, I think, Anderson and Campbell, that's going to go on for a long while.
And the stories -- if you think the stories about the other lady that died were big stories, and you think the stories about Anna Marie were big, this is going to make it disappear.
BROWN: All right, Larry, we will be watching you at 9:00 and of course again another live show at midnight, much more on Michael Jackson on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Anderson.
COOPER: Well, CNN's chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, is in Mount Pleasant, South Carolina, near Charleston. He joins us now.
Sanjay, first of all, the initial report said cardiac arrest. Is that the same thing as a heart attack?
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's different.
Cardiac arrest is something that typically takes place as a result of a sudden change in electrical rhythm to the heart. A heart attack is typically something that is more associated with a clogging of the arteries. The age group of people who suffer heart attacks are going to be older than people who typically suffer cardiac arrest.
So, that -- that is different. What's interesting, as well, Anderson, is, when you think of sudden cardiac arrest, it usually does occur in people around this age group, 45 to 55. COOPER: To what extent does something like stress, does prescription medications play in this? I mean, what causes this sudden change in a cardiac rhythm?
GUPTA: Well, that's a great question.
And the answer is really just about anything can cause it. You know, there's about 300,000 people or so a year in the United States who suffer cardiac arrest. And lots of different things can cause it. Some people may have an underlying problem with their electrical problem of their heart that just never was diagnosed.
Some people may be on medication that somehow caused their heart to go into an abnormal rhythm. It was said that he was exercising six hours a night or rehearsing six hours a night in preparation for his tour. Did that throw off some ions in his body, his potassium, his sodium?
There are so many things on that list potentially that can cause this sort of thing, Anderson.
COOPER: And now we're hearing from the family spokesman who says point blank that in his opinion, this is a case -- and I'm quoting -- "of abuse of medication, unless some other cause is involved which I don't know about."
He's talking about a lot of prescriptions that the family has been concerned that Michael Jackson has been taking and that he's been surrounded by enablers, according to the spokesman.
What sort of impact can prescription drugs have? I mean, certainly, we saw that with Anna Nicole Smith.
GUPTA: We did.
And what is going to be interesting here, because you and I reported a lot about this around Anna Nicole, is that we may never really know the answer to the question I think you're asking, which is, are we going to have a definitive cause of death here?
Cardiac arrest is the cause of death, but as to what sort of caused that to happen now, we may never really know the answer. What will likely happen is, he will likely get an autopsy. And in deaths like this, that is often done.
And then they will do toxicology tests. They're looking at his blood, looking at his urine, and trying to figure out the levels of these various drugs that people are now talking about.
But the question, could these drugs, either in isolation or in combination, have caused cardiac arrest? For someone to say that definitively is going to be a stretch, I think, Anderson, at any time, unless the levels were just so high that it was clearly an overdose type situation.
COOPER: All right, Sanjay Gupta, thanks very much. We will be talking to you throughout the evening.
BROWN: And, of course, breaking news tonight, Michael Jackson's sudden death. If you're just now joining us, the pop star has a heart attack at home, passes away at age 50. It is making headlines around the world. We will be talking with people who knew him, close -- people close to the Jackson family and to Michael.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The last time that many of us saw Michael Jackson was this March in London, when he announced the run of concerts he was rehearsing for. And that announcement, like most things with Michael Jackson, was a spectacle.
Here's Jackson on that day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, ENTERTAINER: This is it. This is really it. This is the final -- this is the final curtain call. I love you.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
JACKSON: I really do. You have to know that. I love you so much, really, from the bottom of my heart.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: On the phone with us right now is Susan Blond. She was Michael Jackson's publicist for many years, starting all the way back to when he was with the Jackson 5.
Hi, Susan. Are you there?
SUSAN BLOND, FORMER JACKSON PUBLICIST: Yes, I'm here. The hank you.
BROWN: I know you were with him for decades and through the "Thriller" years, when he became just a larger-than-life -- maybe the biggest superstar in the world. Talk to us about that time, how he handled it, that level of fame.
BLOND: Well, he always from -- it seems like from when he was 3 years old, he understood that his life was not like regular lives.
So, during "Thriller" -- it started during "Off the Wall." That was the record right before "Thriller." And he was already doing stadiums. And he was already -- it was like at that point, we finally got him on the cover of "Rolling stone." And he started to get accepted in a kind of white world, right, that he kind of wanted.
He wanted to be much bigger than just one thing, just big -- just singles. And he got bigger and bigger and bigger. But through "Thriller," he was just the superstar, the biggest ever, ever, ever. And it was OK, except he had a lot of -- he started getting a lot of people around him. So, it was harder to get through to that sweet sweetheart we loved.
BROWN: Did you see him change, sort of this physical transformation that he made over time? What did you think of it?
BLOND: I thought -- I have so many pictures of us when he was just this handsome guy. And -- and then he wanted a little change.
And I just -- I saw him through a lot of that. And it's just -- by "Thriller," he had actually already gone overboard. You know, at that point, he was already -- it just didn't -- he looked completely different by "Thriller."
I have so many shots when he was just a kid. He just looked like a human, you know? But he did overdo it, I must say. But that doesn't -- it didn't matter, because he was still the greatest artist who ever lived, you know?
BROWN: So, what happened to him, Susan? What do you think happened that led us to this point?
BLOND: I don't know.
I can't even say, because I didn't work with him during that crazy time. I didn't work with him through any of the accusations or any of that -- the awful things that happened.
I worked with him -- I'm like a Pollyanna when it comes -- I worked with him through him becoming the bigger star and through that whole period. Then I started my own firm, Susan Blond, Inc. And then I didn't work with him, except the one other highlight he had at 2001, you know, that 30th anniversary.
So, I just -- how you say what happened to him, I just -- I could never believe that that was the real him. I saw him as the most optimistic, sweet, loving, just very loving kind of person.
BROWN: What did you think when you heard today? Must have been shocked. And, we, again, have these reports from a lawyer for the family saying that prescription drugs appeared to be a real issue for him.
BLOND: That, I can't say.
All I know is, when I heard, it's like your heart -- your heart just -- you know, you can't -- it's a lot. He's a very, very, very special person, and just as entertainment -- that talent, there's -- talent like that is only once in history, you know, once in this generation or -- you know, I have worked with so many people, but Michael is in a category completely of his own.
BROWN: Susan Blond joining us. And, Susan, you say -- you have repped so many different artists.
And, to everyone here, he was really, truly in a category all his own.
COOPER: And the live pictures you're looking at right now are outside the Apollo Theater in New York, in Harlem, where people are playing Michael Jackson's music, singing.
All right, I want to bring in our panel, as we're going to look at some of these live pictures and also look back at the career of Michael Jackson, CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, Emil Wilbekin, managing editor of Essence.com, John Norris, former MTV News correspondent, and entertainment attorney James Walker.
I appreciate you all being with us.
John, I mean, you met him. But just -- you know, we look at these videos of Michael Jackson, and we have seen them so many times now that -- that it seems natural. But, at the time, no one -- people hadn't seen people move like Michael Jackson. I mean, Michael Jackson did things that it seemed like they hadn't been done before.
JOHN NORRIS, FORMER MTV NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Absolutely.
It was otherworldly. And, you know, we -- it's hard to even talk in 2009 about what the area -- era of the superstar was like. You know, in the 1980s, there were -- superstar meant something. And no one embodied that sort of term -- I can't imagine it really existing for anyone, maybe except for Elvis, other than Michael Jackson.
And, of course, he took that on. Once he had that level of unprecedented success, you know, there were the trappings of it. There was -- there were -- you know, he wore royal garb and militant garb and epaulets and ermine.
And there's a famous -- a portrait of him with a crown. And he certainly -- he embraced that. You know...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: And, also, Emil, I mean, he had a die-hard group of supporters who, no matter what the charges against him, no matter whether he was at the pinnacle or at the nadir of his career, stood by him and truly loved him.
EMIL WILBEKIN, MANAGING EDITOR, ESSENCE.COM: No, absolutely.
I mean, you can see what's going on outside of the Apollo right now. People are mourning the king of pop. And, you know, you can talk about the allegations. You can talk all these things. No one cares. Today, we lost Michael Jackson, the guy with the glitter glove who did the moonwalk.
And if you think about the Motown 25th anniversary, I mean, this is the man who changed entertainment.
COOPER: Have you seen anyone -- I remember that Motown anniversary. That was the first time I had seen a moonwalk. I guess James Brown maybe had come close to doing some stuff like that. WILBEKIN: I think James Brown is the only other person you could put in comparison. No one moved and danced the way Michael Jackson moved.
COOPER: And there was almost a -- James, there was a Fred Astaire quality to some of his moves. And I understand he watched those old movies and appreciated the dancing of so many different artists.
(CROSSTALK)
JAMES WALKER, ENTERTAINMENT ATTORNEY: Well, he appreciated the dancing of so many artists. And I want to point out what's going on at the Apollo, as well as the impact he had on all genres of music.
If you watched pop or R&B or even gospel...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Who are the people most influenced by him today, do you think?
WALKER: If watch Kirk Franklin, a major gospel artist, he every now and then will kick his leg like Michael Jackson at a major gospel show.
So, Michael Jackson influenced everyone across the board. And, like Emil said, we can talk about some of the scandals and some of the trials, but, today, we lost a once-in-a-lifetime person in our music industry.
Jeff, you said this earlier today, that his music is a big part of his story. The controversy is also a huge part of his legacy.
BROWN: Jeff, you said this earlier today, that his music is obviously a huge part of his legacy, but there are -- the other stories, the other parts of him, the controversy is also a huge part of his legacy.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: It was.
I covered the trial. And there was a moment in that case where I thought sort of summed up the paradoxes with him. It was the day of his arraignment. And he had never appeared in a courtroom as a defendant before.
And there were thousands of people outside. And he came outside. He was very subdued. To see him up close, you just saw how frail he was, how small he was, how thin he was. And he walked out. And then, all of a sudden, he jumped on top of one of the cars and started dancing for his fans.
This is the day of his arraignment. And I was standing with his lawyer at the time, Ben Brafman, who had absolutely no idea Michael was going to do this. But you then saw this shrunken man blossom with the charisma. And it just seemed to me there were the two sides of Michael Jackson. And he won that case, but I don't think his reputation ever recovered.
BROWN: And here he was saying that he was going to make another comeback, you know, on the verge, writing new songs, planning this tour. Do you think he could have done it?
NORRIS: Comeback is a tough thing that -- you know, I'm not even sure what constitutes one nowadays, you know?
And we have said that Michael could make a comeback a number of times in the last 15 years. This string of sold-out dates in London was a pretty impressive feat. And I think there were a lot of people who were saying, you know what, Michael, is -- it's -- it's not happening for him anymore.
And, for whatever reason, man, they turned out. And he just kept adding dates, and they kept selling out. And...
(CROSSTALK)
COOPER: And, yet, the first couple of dates were then canceled. And folks who had those tickets had to -- you know, were rescheduled for next February, I think it was.
NORRIS: Which so often seems to -- things sometimes come off the rails with events surrounding Michael.
COOPER: Right. There were an awful lot of concert dates that he would promise. Some promoter would back him, give money to him, and then would end up in a lawsuit because he would back out of it.
(CROSSTALK)
WALKER: Sure. He had those issues. But I want to point out, he had been in the music industry almost 40 years, and he was still able to sell out shows overseas in a matter of days.
COOPER: Yes.
WALKER: He had these issues, as you point out, Anderson. But these shows sold out and surprised everyone.
COOPER: It's also a level of fame, Emil, that I don't think anyone has ever had before. It's not just -- I mean, you -- I guess Madonna comes close. But we're talking about since the age of, what, 5 years old, he began -- he was on television at the age of 11.
It's an extraordinary -- to be in the public eye that long, it's unprecedented.
WILBEKIN: Well, I think that is why this is so devastating to so many people, because we grew up watching Michael Jackson.
I mean, I saw some clips recently when they were on "Cher" performing. And you think of how he transformed from this child star to, you know, a solo artist, into the biggest artist in the world. And we -- we haven't seen that. I mean, you think of Elvis and you think of Madonna. And that's it. And you think of the impact that he's had on Chris Brown, Usher...
WALKER: Usher.
WILBEKIN: ... Ne-Yo, all these artists who were influenced by him.
BROWN: Let me bring in right now -- we have got Howard Bragman with us, who was a former publicist for Michael Jackson. He's on the phone with us right now.
Howard, welcome to you.
I know -- I just want to get your reaction of somebody who sort of redefined what international star means.
HOWARD BRAGMAN, FORMER MICHAEL JACKSON BUSINESS ASSOCIATE: Well, first, Campbell, thank you.
I want to say, I was not his publicist. I worked with L.A. Gear and I launched his shoe line for him. So, I wasn't his personal publicist. But I did work with him.
And I need to say one thing that I don't think has been said. You know, we're talking about Michael the performer. And I want to think about Michael the person. He was somebody's son. He was somebody's father. He was somebody's brother, somebody's uncle.
And I want to express my condolences, because he was a man who loved and got love in return. And there's a lot of people hurting right now in his family. And I want to acknowledge that.
And then let's go back. As a performer, he changed history. You know, there's a lot of good singers and there's a lot of good dancers, but, as has been said, he did so many things so brilliantly, his singing, his song writing, his choreographer, his dancing, his business acumen.
He rewrote the history of the entertainment industry in his time. And if he was -- if he was at his heyday today, with the Twitters and the Facebook and the way the media, the metabolism has sped up today, he would be an even bigger star, if that's possible.
But, for me, after many years in the business, that somebody can sustain a career for 40 years is pretty remarkable, Campbell. And I think we have to look at that.
BROWN: A good point, Howard.
Stand by for a second.
I also want to bring in Bryan Monroe, who had the last interview with Michael Jackson.
Brian, tell us about it.
BRYAN MONROE, CONDUCTED FINAL JACKSON INTERVIEW: You know, we did a sit-down interview with him across three days back when I was the editorial director of "Ebony" magazine here in Chicago.
We did it in New York. And I was really struck by how outgoing and talkative he was. A lot of people talked about Michael Jackson being quiet and shy. Well, our interview was supposed to be about 15 to 20 minutes. It probably went for a good hour or two hours, because he talked a lot about his creativity.
And one thing that is interesting that he talked about was immortality. He said, nobody wanted to be mortal, that he wanted his -- he wanted to live on forever through his music.
And I -- I went back and listened to the audio recording of that, now years later, and it's really, really striking that the one thing that people can remember him in a positive way is that he was an amazing creative talent.
BROWN: What did you think of his physicality? I mean, we have heard a number of people say how frail he had seemed, especially recently.
MONROE: You know, he was -- he was very -- a very tiny man, thin, maybe 130, 140 pounds or so.
But I was really struck by -- his skin color was very light, almost translucent. But, once you sat down and talked with him -- and I sat right on the couch next to him, probably a foot or two away, and his son "Blanket" was there with us. And you talk to him, and he came alive when talking about music.
He talked about the phone call he got from Fred Astaire just after the Motown 25 performance where he did the famous moonwalk and "Billie Jean" performance and how that really stirred his soul and really pushed him to do more.
He also controlled a lot. You heard and read about how much influence he's had on everything about his career. During that Motown 25 shoot, he actually told me he picked all of the camera angles and camera shots with both his performance and his brothers.
BROWN: I just want to ask you, Bryan, too, you mentioned his son was with him, I think you said?
MONROE: Yes, yes, his son "Blanket."
BROWN: I'm just curious about -- I mean that's such a -- such a rarity I think for us to even envision him with his family, much less see him with his kids. What was their interaction like?
MONROE: Well, you know, it was really comforting to see him acting like a father. When we came into the room, his son had -- it was a hotel room so there were little candy dishes. And the son came over to us and offered us some -- I think it was peppermint candy. Hello, sir, would you like one of these? And no, thank you, we're good. And then Michael turned to him and said, they're fine, I want you to go and sit down and watch cartoons. So his son sat and watched cartoons for the rest of the interview.
BROWN: Wow. I want to bring back the panel in. To me, that's so striking. I mean, that -- we forget, he had three children because we never saw him.
COOPER: The other thing, is what happens to those kids. There are three kids -- Paris, Michael, Catherine, Prince Michael Jr., and Prince Michael II, also known as "Blanket."
BROWN: Who he had custody of.
COOPER: Do we know what happens to the kids now?
TOOBIN: I think that's a very difficult question. At least for some time, the mother of, I believe, two of those...
COOPER: Debbie Rowe.
TOOBIN: ... Debbie Rowe, had no contact with him. Now I believe that was modified in recent years. But like everything with Michael Jackson, I expected it will wind up in litigation. I mean, this was someone who attracted lawsuits and who filed lawsuits to an extraordinary degree.
COOPER: And it's not known who the mother of "Blanket" is. It's an anonymous surrogate is all that's publicly known.
TOOBIN: That's right. So I think you could rest assured alas that the financial affairs which have been very tangled, you know, Neverland Ranch was bought by a developer after a great deal of controversy and he -- the fate of Neverland remains uncertain. Of course, his most famous asset is that he owns half of The Beatles catalog. That, too, will go into his estate. Does he have a will? Who are the beneficiaries? These are going to be questions.
COOPER: Does he own his own catalog?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, that's what I want to touch base on when we talk about some of the legal, legal wrangling that may go on in the litigation. Let's not underestimate what Howard Bragman, I believe said.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bragman.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bragman. Michael was one of the first artists to really take control of publishing. And we don't want to overlook on this day the business acumen that he had as a major artist to stay I'm going to buy a portion of The Beatles catalog.
He also owns some Eminem's catalog. He also owns, I think, some of Elvis Presley's catalog. And he also owns a lot of his own catalog. And when you look at his royalties and his copyrights, I understand, he's probably got half a billion to a billion dollar catalog.
COOPER: We don't know how much of that, though, was mortgaged off to pay living expenses and the like over the last couple years.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't know that, Anderson, but we do know he was one of the first pioneers to do that.
COOPER: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And how his historic is it that this Black Music month. We've been celebrating him on our Web sites and on our different entertainment circles for this whole week. And it's ironic that, unfortunately, today, we're sending our condolences out to his family because of the death. But you can't underestimate what he did for black artists and artists as a whole, as a businessman.
And I think that gets lost, Jeffrey, in the last five or ten years in a lot of litigation battles. We overlook what he did the first 30 years to kind of set the landscape for these other artists.
COOPER: We should point, we're standing by for a press conference at the hospital. You see a crowd has gathered outside the hospital. The crowd has been steadily growing over the last several hours since word of Michael Jackson's death has been spreading.
And again, we'll bring you that press conference as soon as it happens. Trying to get exact details of what happened. There are obviously a lot of rumors, innuendo floating around.
I don't want to go down the road to speculation, but again, what we know is cardiac arrest. Michael Jackson was not responsive, not breathing when paramedics arrived at the scene. And then, obviously, the declaration that he, in fact, had died, confirmation coming from the coroner in Los Angeles. We'll bring you that press conference.
As we go to commercial break, let's just take a look at one of Michael Jackson's iconic videos. "Don't Stop "Til You Get Enough" back 1979.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "Don't Stop 'Til You Get Enough")
MUSIC: Don't stop 'til you get enough. Ain't nothin' like a love desire. I'm melting like hot candle wax. Sensation lovely where we're at. So let love take us through the hours I won't be complain' 'cause this is love power keep on with the force, don't stop don't stop 'til you get enough keep on with the force, don't stop don't stop till you get enough.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: As we have been reporting all night, Michael Jackson died this afternoon in Los Angeles.
We want to go check in with Richard Roth right now. He's at the Apollo Theater talking to fans of Michael Jackson's who have gathered there. What are you hearing tonight? RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, Michael Jackson played here in the late '60s. And he was here as late as 2002 in a fund-raiser for the Democratic Party. This has been a wild scene, mixed emotions, sadness, stun, shock, and happiness at Michael Jackson's music and the legacy that he leaves behind. With me are people who were dancing in the streets here. Why were you dancing in this huge group here?
LEVON (ph), MICHAEL JACKSON FAN: In honor of Michael Jackson. I mean, he was a legend and icon. And I grew up watching Michael Jackson.
Michael Jackson was around since before I was even born and I grew up on him, mimicking his moves and stuff, dancing to all his videos and everything. As I'm driving down here, I'm on a cross island parkway, traffic is crazy. And I'm just like, oh, man, I've got to get somewhere.
So I couldn't get to UCLA, so I figured what better (ph) place than Apollo where, you know, where he put on that legendary performance? And I came down here and the crowd, you know, is just like so full of energy. And I just figures, you know what better way to do it than to celebrate his life instead of mourn his death.
ROTH: Do you -- Richard, over here. Do you believe this marquee? Michael Jackson, an appreciation. It sort of unbelievable, isn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Of course, I came down to support Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson, music, great boundaries. I'm from Ecuador. I listen to him back in Ecuador -- no America. And I came here, that's wow. It's something so emotional for me to come here and represent his legacy, pop star.
I love Michael. That's what I've got to say.
ROTH: What about Michael Jackson? You know, he had a lot of problems. He was accused of child abuse. He was never convicted. What's his legacy?
LEVON (ph): His legacy is that Michael Jackson was accused of everything. I mean, with every good there comes some bad. You know, there's a balance between negative and positive. You know, so it's just like although he had a lot of negative energy, you know, a lot of negative energy was pointed towards him, I think that today is the day that everybody (INAUDIBLE), you know--
ROTH: I've got to stop there. Levon (ph), thank you very much. We have to go back to the continuing coverage on the desk. Thank you very much.
This is a large crowd here that is still -- I saw one woman in tears being told that Michael Jackson had died. Back to you.
BROWN: All right. Richard, thanks very much.
I want to bring in Roland Martin right now. Roland, I understand you just talked to his brother.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (via telephone): Yes. I talked to Marlon Jackson about 30 minutes ago, and he is absolutely devastated. He said that he was watching television -- I'm sorry, he was at his home in Georgia. His daughter was downstairs and she said, dad, they're saying that Uncle Mike is dead. And he said, wait a minute, that could not be. He said, you know, let me just find out what's going on because he said there were accustomed to all kinds of rumors.
He then called Frank DiLeo, who was Michael Jackson's manager. He talked to him and he said, Marlon, it's true, we lost him.
He said apparently Michael Jackson was ill last night. He called Frank, said he was not feeling well. They called a doctor over. The doctor came to the house, checked him out. He obviously was not taken to the hospital.
Marlon then said, Frank said, "Marlon, from last night to this morning I don't know what happened. When they got to him this morning, he wasn't breathing. They rushed him to the hospital and couldn't bring him around. That's what happened. They don't know what happened.
Marlon also said the last time he saw Michael Jackson was May 14th at a family gathering. He had just gotten back from Africa, and apparently the family was together. We had previous reports, Campbell, that Michael Jackson was in a wheelchair, he was frail. Marlon said, "He wasn't in a wheelchair. He was walking around with his kids. And we saw him he wasn't in a wheelchair. He all thought he was doing great.
He said the family is just simply stunned, stunned at the death. He's talked to his brother, Jackie. He's talked to Tito. He said they feel the same way, "A piece of our heart, a piece of us went with him." It was a shock to them too.
BROWN: Wow. The family, I know, Roland, must just be devastated. To bring back our panel here and talk a little bit more about what and the family, it hasn't -- we talk about Michael Jackson, the superstar. This whole family has lived out their lives in the public eye in a way that's just incomparable.
COOPER: James, you worked with two of the brothers?
JAMES WALKER, ENTERTAINMENT ATTORNEY: I had an artist signed to Marlon, or in Randy's record label, Motown Records for about five years. So I was running back and forth to L.A. and didn't work with Michael at all, did not know him personally. But the family is a very close-knit family.
COOPER: I'm told on the phone, we have Ne-Yo, a recording artist, also producer.
Ne-Yo, I know Jackson was a huge fan of yours. You worked together. You were working on the London concert with Michael Jackson. Isn't that right?
NE-YO, SINGER/SONGWRITER: I wasn't working on the concert with him. The last time I spoke to Michael was about an album, comeback album that he wanted to put together. And, you know, he reached out to me about doing some work, work that we will unfortunately never get to do.
COOPER: What was he like, I mean, as a person, just talking to him?
NE-YO: You know what? He was really cool people, man. Like, when I first met him, of course, I was shaking like a leaf. You know, Mike is half the reason I'm even here, you know? I wouldn't be here if not for him.
But, you know, just after talking to him for a little while, I found out that we had a lot in common. You know, just the way that we viewed music and, you know, music being more to us than just sounds and words. You know, it was really cool people.
COOPER: You say you wouldn't be here if it wasn't for him. What about him influence to you as a young kid who wanted to get into the business?
NE-YO: Man, growing up, Michael Jackson could do no wrong. Everything the man did was magic.
My earliest memory of Michael Jackson is was when I first really started taking singing seriously, I hated my singing voice. I had kind of a high, nasally type of tone and I didn't really like it. So my mom gave me Michael Jackson's off the wall album as well as Stevie Wonder's "Hotter Than July" and told me to study just the way that they used their instruments to help me get better, get more comfortable with using mine.
And from then on I was just -- I was in love with Michael Jackson. His tone, his creativity, just the whole thing. There would never be another Michael Jackson. It's a sad day for, not just R&B music but just the pop music, music period. This is really a sad day for us.
COOPER: And we're looking -- we're also looking at early pictures of Michael Jackson back from the days of the Jackson Five, when he was just watched him, indeed, from the "Off The Wall" album. Is that the Michael Jackson you remember?
When you think, you know, your first impulse when you think about Michael Jackson, is it the Michael Jackson of "Thriller"? Or is it pre-"Thriller"?
NE-YO: Michael Jackson was -- I mean, and not only for this to sound funny or anything like this, but Michael Jackson was a man of many faces. And I'll remember him for each way that he was, each way that he was until, you know, until today.
COOPER: Ne-Yo, appreciate you coming in to talk with us. Thank you very much.
NE-YO: No problem.
BROWN: And we want to tell you we just got a statement from Lisa Marie Presley, who is, of course, married at one time to Michael Jackson. And it reads, "I am so very sad and confused with every emotion possible. I am heartbroken for his children who I know were everything to him and for his family. This is such a massive loss on so many levels. Words fail me."
Again, that was from Lisa Marie Presley.
COOPER: Also here with our panelists, Emil Wilbekin, managing editor of essence.com, James Walker, entertainment attorney, and John Norris, former MTV news correspondent.
You know, Emil, when you look at those early videos of Michael Jackson, even the "Off the Wall" video, you know, there's such exuberance and joy. And he seems to be having such a good time. Was he, though? I mean, did later on -- do you think that joy, did it remain in the music?
EMIL WILBEKIN, MANAGING EDITOR, ESSENCE.COM: Well, I think, you know, he's a classic child star. There is a lot of energy and exuberance when he performs, but there's kind of a sadness and disconnectedness to it as well.
And I think that the thing of Michael is that when we saw him perform, it was just like the lights were off. But then as his career went on and the stories got more crazy and there were, you know, marriages and allegations and different things, there was a certain darkness that came about it. But if you ever see pictures with him and his kids, always happy. If you see him perform, always happy. So there's this weird dichotomy which I think makes him the most incredible entertainer.
JOHN NORRIS, FMR. MTV NEWS CORRESPONDENT: And I don't -- you know, I don't know if I'll ever know -- you know, I think reams have already been written about what happened to this person, who we see there at 8 years old or whatever just joyous.
COOPER: Yes.
NORRIS: And I want you back, because just right to this day, that song makes me smile. And then how a few years ago he's this figure -- pale figure under an umbrella walking into a child molestation trial and how that happened over 30 years.
I don't know that we'll ever know the whole story. But as you're saying, I mean, it was the '80s this withdrawal began. I think that was at the root of it. It's the withdrawal. And then, you know, someone else earlier talked about -- I think Susan Blond (ph) talked about the wall of people around him. And then he had actual --
BROWN: He had this wall of people around him. Then yet at the same time, he was this recluse. I mean, who was really close to him, if anyone?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, he went through a series of assistants, as I understand, you know. And I think that there was a lot -- probably a lot of paranoia there, you know.
BROWN: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And a lot of -- and he felt most comfortable, of course, with children, with small children. And, you know, Jess said earlier he had a healthy relationship with children. And on some level that may have been. But I also think he genuinely loved them and --
BROWN: He also had these very high-profile friendships as we know. Elizabeth Taylor and Brooke Shields.
And I want to bring back Bryan Monroe who had the very last interview with Michael Jackson, again, at Ebony magazine.
And, Bryan, what, in your conversations with him, I mean, why did you want to do this piece? What were you trying to get out with him? And what was the most striking to you about what he told you?
MONROE: Well, you know, the piece was done on the occasion of the 25th anniversary of "Thriller," you know, the biggest selling album in modern music history. And he talked a lot about the making of that album, the music-making process working with a German guy from the group, Heat Wave, named Rod Temperton, and how they would battle back and forth and who could write the best song. And they'd send them up to Quincy Jones who is producing that album and have Quincy almost bless them.
And so there was a competitive spirit about him, too. And, you know, the other part essentially you had Ne-Yo on earlier. He talked about Ne-Yo and how much he respected Ne-Yo's music and how he was keeping abreast of the modern music and talked about wanting to go into the studio and working on this comeback album that, unfortunately, was never meant to be.
COOPER: We're also joined by Gideon Yago, former MTV correspondent. You interviewed Michael Jackson.
GIDEON YAGO, IFC MEDIA PROJECT: Yes, this was back in 2001 at his last big sort of coming out affair where he had this 25-year anniversary concert that he was doing around Madison Square Gardens.
COOPER: How did you -- how did he seem to you? I mean, you obviously seen him from afar a lot.
YAGO: Yes. I mean, you know, everything that, you know, we've been talking about or that you hear about, about the isolation and the distance that he put between people, it was just a bizarre appearance. It was like talking to someone on a satellite delay.
COOPER: Even though he was right next to you. YAGO: Right there, yes. You know, and my initial impression was, you know, this guy is on something. And then, you know, 10, 15, 20 minutes later he was out on stage popping and locking and dancing like the most professional and incredible entertainer I'd ever seen. And I think that's part of kind of the dichotomy of it, you know.
Five months ago he was uninsurable. And then once the concert series in London actually went public and they found someone to insure against it, it sold out in five hours. And it just gives you an idea of the kind of the complexity of him as an icon and the complexity of him as a celebrity. That there was so much darkness and yet the capacity to perform in such an amazing way, and for so many things.
WALKER: Anderson, no one has said, at least on this panel, and I'm still nervous, I'm still shaken by it. I'm not delighted (ph). This is very daunting and a tough day for the music industry.
Michael transcended race before Michael Jordan, before Oprah, before Tiger Woods, before Barack Obama. Michael Jackson was the one who sold 60 million records.
I don't know if we'll ever see anything like that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ever.
WALKER: So when you talk about, Yago, of how he could go on that stage in a matter of minutes, could turn it on, that hasn't been really focused on a lot today from driving down here and listening on the radio.
BROWN: Yes.
WALKER: That he has -- he transcended an entire culture with the network.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I'd say, in my book, as you know, I say he made MTV. I say he really made MTV with the "Thriller" album.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was certainly the first African-American act to be featured prominently on MTV at a time when that network was getting a lot of heat for having a racial divide.
BROWN: All right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And he predominantly was --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was the same standoff. Walter Yetnikoff went to bat, instead drew a line in the sand and said we believe in this guy and you're going to play his videos. And we're pulling all our videos and that --
BROWN: Well, let me bring Roland Martin back in who's on the telephone with us. Roland, of course, has talked to some of the family members. And I know, Roland, just to follow the point being made here, he was a huge crossover star, massive African-American fans, huge white fans. I mean, probably one of the first certainly on that level.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST (via telephone): I don't think people truly understand how major Michael Jackson was in terms of breaking down those kinds of barriers. When you talk about MTV, there was no doubt, they would not play any black artist and they initially denied Michael Jackson. But when he was on the air, it all exploded. He broke down those barriers.
When you look at how he was so huge overseas, in terms of bringing the kind of attention. And so, you know, we can sit here and talk about the trials and all the craziness and everything, but you know what, I can think about Jerry Lee Lewis. I can think about Elvis Presley.
You could think about all kinds of artists over the year who had these kinds of -- these mutual (ph) moments outside of the stage. But the bottom line is when he was on that stage, he was no doubt a major figure. And I think that's why you're seeing this kind of visceral reaction.
In Gary, Indiana, I'm not far from Chicago, I mean, people have been flooding to the Jackson family home just to simply be in the presence there. When you talk about -- you know, you read some of the history books with so many different artists who were looking at him. And frankly, it is tragic him dying at 50 but it reminds me, frankly, of the death of Billie Holiday, same thing that's kind of iconic feeling.
COOPER: I'm sorry, Roland, I've got to jump in here. Roland, I just kind of jump in. Kara Finnstrom is standing outside. Let's listen.
(LIVE FEED)
LT. GREG STRENK, LOS ANGELES POLICE DEPARTMENT: At about 1300 hours today, Mr. Jackson was transported from this location by paramedics to UCLA Medical Center. At about 1400 or about 2:30 in the afternoon, Mr. Jackson was pronounced over at UCLA Medical Center, about 4:00 this afternoon, the Robbery Homicide Division was notified of this incident and directed by the chief of police to come out and handle the death investigation.
Currently, the L.A. County coroner's office is taking possession of Mr. Jackson's body. They will handle any other inquiries into the type of death or anything as it relates to that at that point in time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are there any signs in sight that he was overmedicated?
STRENK: I have no further information than what I gave you at this time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us what you were looking for inside, lieutenant, and what you saw, you found?
STRENK: Again, like I said, I have no further information to give you at this time. I'm sorry, but at this point in time, it's a coroner's investigation. So any of those questions have to be directed to the L.A. County coroner's office.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How long was he living in the residence?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is this a suspicious death, lieutenant? Is this a suspicious death, what room he was in, and where he was when he was stricken?
STRENK: The Los Angeles Police Department handles death investigations every day. Robbery homicide was assigned to this because of the high-profile nature of it.
Don't read into anything as it relates to my team being here. Just by the fact of all of you being here caused the chief to decide that we should handle this investigation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can you tell us the nature of how --
STRENK: I've got nothing else for you, guys. OK? Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Everybody let's give more respect and get back off the property. Thank you very much.
(END OF LIVE FEED)
BROWN: They -- that was Greg Strenk you just heard right there from the L.A. Police Department, who, again, not giving us a whole lot of detail and their investigation ongoing. But he said don't read in too much into it the fact that homicide is investigating. It's more that this is a media circus. Let's be honest about it. They're going to put their top people on it.
COOPER: We're also anticipating a press conference from the hospital any moment.
BROWN: Let's go back. Kara Finnstrom is outside the house where the news conference just took place.
Kara, what can you tell us?
KARA FINNSTROM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Well, Campbell, as you just heard from the L.A. detectives, they have been in there for a little while this afternoon conducting an investigation that they say is just regular protocol, especially after the death of someone as high profile as Michael Jackson.
This area has been completely sealed off to the public, so not a lot of his fans here. What we do have here is a lot of media. A lot of international media as well, which is, kind of again, speaks to the reach of Michael Jackson. But, again, at this hour, they are still inside continuing to conduct their investigation.
BROWN: All right. Kara Finnstrom for us coming from the house in Los Angeles. Again, as Anderson mentioned, you can see the crowd gathered. That's actually the hospital, the shot you're looking at right now where we are expecting a press conference shortly with more information hopefully from the hospital.
COOPER: The other thing to consider, I mean, again as we look at some of these young pictures of Michael Jackson where he is, you know, I think started performing at 5 years old on TV, the first time at 11. He talked later in his life in that famous interview to, I think, to Ed Bradley and to others about basically being kind of an abused child, of abuse at the hands of his dad and ridiculed at the hands of his father.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There was obviously a lot of toxicity in that family. And that's something that they had vetted over the years. But I think without getting into the particulars of that, when you look at Michael Jackson's career as a whole, the fact he was a signed recording artist for the first really major cross-racial boundary breakout band on Motown's label since the age of 11, you are never, I think, ever going to have a recording artist that is going to have that kind of legacy and that kind of an impact. Records just don't sell that much anymore.
COOPER: Right. The whole business has changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The whole business has changed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you were talking about Walter Yetnikoff going to the mattresses to get Michael Jackson on MTV, you know, that was at a time when the record divisions for every major entertainment company were trying to poach movie studios, when the entertainment business was the music business. And now because of technology, you know, it's in shambles. So the idea of having a star of this caliber that comes from American music ever again, I don't think we'll see it not in our lifetime.
BROWN: I just want to mention, too, that we've been receiving a massive number of statements from various celebrities who knew Michael and obviously admired him.
Madonna just releasing a statement to "People" magazine a moment ago saying, "I can't stop crying over the sad news. I've always admired Michael Jackson. The world has lost one of the greats, but his music will live on forever. My heart goes out to his three children, other members of his family. God bless." Again, that's from Madonna. Quincy Jones, Al Sharpton, John Lynn (ph) are all releasing statements. Dick Clark, obviously, you know, shocked, everyone, generally.
COOPER: And the images you're looking at, again, this is a live picture outside the Apollo where the crowd is gathered singing in tribute to Michael Jackson. I think the banner above the Apollo says it's a celebration of life of Michael Jackson.
That's the scene outside the Apollo in New York. His financial history has become incredibly tangled and it's kind of unclear at this point how much money he had, what kind of an estate he leaves. What happens next?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was $400 million in debt as of last year. And two billionaires, a guy named Tom Barrack, who worked for a company called Colony Capital and Phil Anschutz, who runs AEG Live and is attached to the course for --
COOPER: Owns all the stadium, the stadium that Michael Jackson was going to be performing at in London.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, in London, the O2, the Staples Center. These guys about five years ago, Elvis' back catalog was sold for $100 million. They looked at Michael Jackson's situation and said, OK, this guy is $400 million in debt, but there's not a lot of people who were out there who are in multimillion dollar business as a star.
So they assumed a lot of his debts. They paid off -- you know, there was -- Neverland was about to be foreclosed on. They paid off the debts on that. And they were the team that engineered this comeback, these concerts at the O2 arena and all of this investment in, beginning a Michael Jackson career, again, after 12 years of not touring. After a lackluster release of an album was invincible, just not kind of --
COOPER: Do you think he could have come back?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I do. I mean, I perfectly do. But, I mean, I'm, you know, I'm just a journalist.
And it's funny. You know, you look at somebody like Elvis who at the end of his career was very isolated. I think it's probably a really good analogy to look at in terms of when we talk about Michael Jackson and the iconography and the legacy and what not, you know, and was sort of existing day-to-day in a very, very small universe. And, you know, the same is I think very, very true of Michael Jackson as well.
COOPER: I want to thank our panel -- Gideon Yago, Bryan Monroe on satellite, also Howard Bragman in Los Angeles, Emil Wilbekin, James Walker, John Norris as well, and our Jeffrey Toobin who was here earlier.
BROWN: And we want to leave everybody with the music and a video that is in place in many of our brains. We watched it a million times, I think. The "Thriller" video.
"LARRY KING LIVE" will be up next.
