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CNN Larry King Live
Interview with Michael Jackson's Doctor
Aired July 08, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, a prime time exclusive -- Michael Jackson's doctor breaks his silence, answering the questions everyone wants answered.
Is Dr. Arnie Klein the father of the pop star's children?
And what does he have to say about drugs, his former employee, Debbie Rowe, and the singer's ever changing face?
And then, the bombshells that dropped today -- shocking details about Michael's body at the time of his death.
Dr. Arnie Klein on the friendship of almost 25 years and the loss that has left him devastated, next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Good evening.
The saga the death of Michael Jackson continues. And we welcome a very special guest tonight. Dr. Arnie Klein, they call him the dermatologist to the stars, easily the best known dermatologist in Southern California, maybe elsewhere, too. He's Michael Jackson's long-term dermatologist, friend and he's a professor of medicine and dermatology at UCLA.
Doctor, how did you first meet Michael?
DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DERMATOLOGIST: I met Michael because someone had brought him into my office. And they walked into the room with Michael. And I looked one -- took one look at him and I said you have lupus erythematosus. Now, this was a long word.
KING: Lupus?
KLEIN: Lupus, yes. I mean, because he had red -- a butterfly rash and he also had severe crusting you could see on the anterior portion of his scalp. I mean I always am very visual. I'm a person who would look at the lips of Mona Lisa and not see her smile. I would see the lips.
KING: Was he there because of that condition?
KLEIN: He was there only because a very close friend of his had told him to come see me about the problems he had with his skin. Because he was -- he had severe acne, which many people...
KING: Oh, he did? KLEIN: Yes, he did. And many people made fun of him. He used to remember trying to clean it off and he'd gone to these doctors that really hurt him very much. And he was exquisitely sensitive to pain.
So he walked into my office. He had several things wrong with his skin. So I said -- and you have thick crusting of your scalp and you have some hair loss.
He says, well, how do you know this?
I said, because it's the natural course of lupus. So I then did a biopsy. I diagnosed lupus. And then our relationship went from there.
KING: Grew from there.
You -- let's fast forward. You saw him the Monday before he died.
KLEIN: Absolutely. Yes, sir.
KING: What was the purpose of the visit?
KLEIN: He came to me because, basically, I was sort of rebuilding his face, because he had severe acne and scarring. He had scarring from having a lot of cosmetic surgery. And my expertise is -- like it is with every one of my patients. My patients are my treasures. And I was rebuilding his face so he looked much more normal. And contrary to what people said, he could not take off his nose. His nose was attached. But it looked too small. And I just was trying to get him ready to do the concert, because in the way he looked in his face, he wanted it to be absolutely as perfect as it could be.
KING: Did he consult you when he was doing his plastic surgery?
KLEIN: No. I mean I came onto the scene long after he'd begun plastic surgery. In fact, what I wanted to do is, you know, stop it, because I felt that, you know, we were losing body parts in the situation...
KING: Do you know why -- he was such a good-looking young man -- why he even started the plastic surgery?
KLEIN: I don't know because I can't definitively say. But I know that people made fun -- or family members -- of the size of his nose. He was very sensitive to that. And so he doing cosmetic surgery. And when you -- you know, it's like, remember Totti Fields (ph) very well.
KING: Yes. We knew her well.
KLEIN: And her facelift.
KING: Yes. KLEIN: Then she lost her leg. The thing is there's -- plastic surgery, it's unfortunate. If you want it done, there's someone who will do it.
KING: Correct.
And how do you find the right one?
I'll get to that in a while.
How would you describe Michael's mental, physical condition on that Monday?
KLEIN: He was dancing in the office, so it's hard to say. So he was in very good physical condition. He was dancing for my patients. He was very mentally aware when we saw him and he was in a very good mood, because he was very happy and...
KING: Was it good?
KLEIN: It was a very, very happy mood.
KING: So, therefore, you had to be shocked when he died.
KLEIN: Oh, I sat and -- I remember when I found out. I sat at my desk. For about five hours, I couldn't move, because I was very close to him. And it's not just because he's Michael Jackson, probably the most talented actor -- or, excuse me, performer of our age. I mean when I lose anyone that I know I go -- having lost my brother and my father when I was in medical school, I don't do well with death.
KING: A doctor should feel that way, right?
KLEIN: Well, that's the only way I could feel...
KING: Any loss is a loss to him or her?
KLEIN: Anyone -- I've -- I've taken care of many of your friends. And I have to tell you one thing, I give my life to my work. I have nothing else.
KING: Was -- was Michael in any kind of pain when you saw him?
KLEIN: Not whatsoever.
KING: Yes. Now, there are reports, doctor, that his body was riddled -- I want to get this right -- with needle marks when he died.
Did you see any evidence of needle marks on this visit?
KLEIN: Well, I didn't examine his entire body. You know (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: Had you seen any in prior exams? KLEIN: No, I never saw needle marks on his body. I mean I never saw them. But I could tell you -- but I didn't see a riddling of anything. People sound like he looked like he was made of, you know, there were holes in him. And there weren't anything like that.
KING: Reports he was emaciated.
KLEIN: He wasn't emaciated. I mean, I know dancers because I've worked with dancers many times and dancers are very concerned about their weight. And so I knew that he always wanted to be thin. And I talked to him about eating enough and making sure he didn't over exercise, as some dancers, in order to remain thin, will over dance, in order to keep their weight down.
KING: Would you call him a good patient?
KLEIN: I thought he was a great patient.
KING: All right, you...
KLEIN: I don't have any bad patients.
KING: OK. Well, some patients are not as cooperative as others.
KLEIN: Oh, absolutely.
KING: Or don't listen to their doctors.
Well, what -- what about pain killing medications?
Did you prescribe any?
KLEIN: I mean I've some sedatives for, you know, when he had surgical procedures that were immense (ph), because, don't forget, he had a lot of -- he had the burn -- the serious burn when he was burnt on the Pepsi commercial and the severe hair loss when he, you know, contracted lupus, also.
So when you have to fix all these areas, you have to sedate him a little bit.
But if you took all the pills I had given him in the last year at once, it wouldn't do anything to you.
KING: What was the strongest medication you gave him?
KLEIN: I once -- you know, I, on occasion, gave him Demerol to sedate him. And that was about the strongest medicine I ever used.
KING: You've worked with addicts, have you not?
KLEIN: I wrote a book on heroin addiction. And I mean I think what's happening with drugs now is a disaster. I mean when you look at the actor from the "Batman." I mean look what happened to him.
KING: Yes. KLEIN: You have him. You have Michael. And the thing to remember from this, you have all these drugs now that they're being prescribed -- the pills, like OxyContin, available on our high school campuses.
And I think we have to do something about the ready availability of these drugs.
KING: Did Michael -- we're going to get to that in a while.
Did Michael have an addiction you were aware of?
KLEIN: Michael, at one time, had an addiction. And he went to England and he withdrew that addiction at a secure setting, where he went off of drugs altogether.
And what I told Michael when I met him in this present situation when I was seeing him, that I had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on, because he came to me with a huge tolerance level.
KING: Yes.
KLEIN: I mean, when you take drugs repeatedly, if you're -- unless you have something like a kidney stone for it -- you may require some larger doses than normal.
The other thing that you have to remember, when you're using certain drugs, you have what are called active intermediates. And what these are is it takes a long time for the body to adjust. There are certain drugs, like they've been talking about Diprivan
KING: I want to get...
KLEIN: That...
KING: Let me get a break and come back.
KLEIN: Yes.
KING: Because I want to talk about Diprivan.
KLEIN: Sure.
KING: Did Dr. Klein father any of the children of Michael Jackson?
He'll tell us later. He's not exactly denying or admitting it. That's later.
Next, Diprivan.
Don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Dr. Arnie Klein. A small world. Dr. Klein went to the same high school as my son Andy, North Miami High, where Steve Carlton pitched. And he's in the Hall of Fame and you're in the dermatological Hall of Fame.
KLEIN: (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Diprivan.
KLEIN: Diprivan.
KING: OK, now let me just -- I never get personal, but I had cataract surgery. They knock you out for a little while. You wake up and suddenly it's gone and you feel fine. And they gave me Diprivan to knock me out.
KLEIN: It's a wonderful drug when used correctly.
KING: It is. And it's used by anesthesiologists.
KLEIN: Right, because it's a very short-acting drug. It's very -- metabolized very quickly.
KING: And you go to sleep.
KLEIN: You go to sleep and it's gotten rid of from the body very quickly. But you...
KING: What would it be doing in someone's house?
KLEIN: I have no idea. And that's what doesn't make sense to me. And it's like anything, I mean, it's the danger of all these substances that are available that people can get, because the very rich and the very poor, the very -- well, the rich and the famous can buy anything they want to buy.
KING: Yes, but how would you buy Diprivan?
KLEIN: Well, you can get it from an anesthesiologist.
KING: But he'd have to come to your house?
Would you do it in your house?
KLEIN: No, certainly not, unless you have an anesthesiologist administering it to you.
There are certain things that you have to not do. And the one thing you have to know is what you're doing with medication. And medicine isn't something casual. I mean I developed, you know, certain things in my life -- not a lot, but the way -- the sites that use botox on certain injectable fillers. And I mean that's my life. And I mean the big thing that I see is you see so many people giving botox parties and things like this. And this makes no sense because this is just medicine.
KING: I don't talk about that.
All right, did Michael tell you he used Diprivan?
KLEIN: I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany. And so he was using it, with an anesthesiologist, to go to sleep at night. And I told him he was absolutely insane. I said you have to understand that this drug, you can't repeatedly take. Because what happens with narcotics, no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them.
KING: How could a reasonable anesthesiologist give that to someone other than prior to surgery?
KLEIN: Because I have to tell you, there are certain people in this world who are not reasonable. You know, integrity in medicine does (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: Wouldn't you lose a license if you were giving it for other than?
KLEIN: Anesthesiology?
I mean people have used everything for everything. But there are so many -- I mean let's not -- don't get me into the topic of integrity in medicine now, because, I mean, that's what's happening in the FDA and all the recommendations of drugs. So that's not a...
KING: Are you surprised that Diprivan was found in his home, supposedly?
KLEIN: I am very shocked by it. But I have to tell you that it's not something that would be unheard of because I told him that this drug was very dangerous to use on a regular basis.
KING: And what did he say when you told him?
KLEIN: Well, he listened to me. But you can't...
KING: And?
KLEIN: Well, you can't...
KING: You can't force him.
KLEIN: ...be absolutely sure that you're enforcing it. I spent half -- I spent half a year living with heroin addicts and writing a book about my experiences when I was in medical school, when I went to England after the death of my father and brother.
And what I learned from experience is you couldn't really ever be assured that you're getting honest information from someone who is an addict.
KING: Yes. Because they lie.
KLEIN: Well, they lie, because they want to procure medication.
KING: Did you ever see any I.V. type equipment in his house? KLEIN: Never.
KING: Did you ever see Diprivan in his home?
Did you ever see it anywhere...
KLEIN: No.
KING: ...associated with him?
KLEIN: I mean I never did. And I also told him specifically the dangers of the Diprivan -- the dangers of it being used by someone who is not an anesthesiologist or someone very (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Did he have an insomnia problem?
KLEIN: Not that I knew of, except that once we went on tour with him. We were in Hawaii. He couldn't get to sleep. So the whole -- me and my whole office went to sleep in the room with him.
So I never knew that he had a problem with sleep until this whole tour came up or basically this problem with sleep at that time. I did know that he did certain, you know, local anesthesia. But this is not something we discussed repeatedly, except I just got shocked. He assured me he had stopped.
KING: And he never asked you to administer it, did he?
KLEIN: No. I mean...
KING: And you wouldn't, I guess? That's an...
KLEIN: It's not what I do.
KING: No, I know.
KLEIN: I'm a doctor. I'm a dermatologist. I'm not going to be (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: There are at least five doctors reportedly now under investigation.
Does that -- have you been contacted by any authorities, police or anyone?
KLEIN: The only thing I've done is I've turned my records, a long time ago, over to the medical examiner. I've not been contacted by the medical examiner (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Nothing with regard to this?
KLEIN: No, sir.
KING: Do you know anything about these -- these doctors, supposedly? KLEIN: I know there are supposed doctors. I know there's various doctors who went on tour with him. I mean, I know there were a few doctors. I specifically don't remember their names. But I think they're going to review the records and go over specifically what happens.
But you have to go back historically.
What happened to Kanye West's mom?
What happened to his mother?
She died during surgery.
How many people really have this problem when they have -- you know, when they die during surgery, for whatever the reason is, whether or not they have liposuction. Then they sit around with a dead person and...
KING: Are there a lot of doctors practicing who shouldn't?
KLEIN: Well, I don't want -- that's (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Would you guess?
KLEIN: I would say there's certainly a large number of people. I don't think it's huge. But I'd say a significant number of doctors, where you really have to wonder what they're doing, because a lot of people have come into my field, which is mainly based in esthetics, because I think it's the only place they belong, for untold reasons.
KING: I want to ask you in a minute about Michael and his looks, when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with the famed dermatologist, Dr. Arnie Klein, in a nighttime, prime time exclusive here on LARRY KING LIVE.
What is vitiligo?
KLEIN: It's a loss of pigment cells. And the pigment cells, you -- for every 36 normal cells in your body, you have one pigment cell pumping pigment into them. Unfortunately, it's an autoimmune disease and lupus is an autoimmune disease. And they tend to go together, because you make antibodies against your pigment cells.
KING: Did Michael have it?
KLEIN: Absolutely. We biopsied (INAUDIBLE).
KING: What causes it?
KLEIN: It causes -- it's caused by your immune system and your immune system destroying your pigment cells.
KING: Do black people have it more than white people?
KLEIN: No. But it's just more visible on black people, because they have a dark skin. The other thing is, it certainly occurs with a family history. And I believe one of Michael's relatives did, in fact, have vitiligo.
KING: How bad was his?
KLEIN: Oh, his was bad because he began to get a totally speckled look over his body. And he could...
KING: All over his body?
KLEIN: All over his body, but on his face significantly; on his hands, which were very difficult to treat.
KING: So let's clear up something.
He was not someone desirous of being white?
KLEIN: No. Michael was black. He was very proud of his black heritage. He changed the world for black people. We now have a black president.
KING: So how do you treat vitiligo?
KLEIN: Well, I mean there's certain treatments. You have one choice where you can use certain drugs called (INAUDIBLE) and ultraviolet light treatments to try to make the white spots turn dark or -- his became so severe, that the easier way is to use certain creams that will make the dark spots turn light so you can even out the pigments totally.
KING: So your decision there was he would go light?
KLEIN: Well, yes, that's ultimately what the decision had to be, because there was too much vitiligo to deal with and...
KING: Otherwise, he would have looked ridiculous?
KLEIN: Well, you can't -- he would have to wear heavy, heavy makeup on stage, which would be ridiculous. And he couldn't really go out in public without looking terribly peculiar.
KING: More with Dr. Arnie Klein right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with Dr. Arnie Klein.
How did you treat the vitiligo?
KLEIN: Well, we basically used creams that would even out the same color and we destroyed the remaining pigment cells.
KING: And did his color change a lot over the years? KLEIN: No, because once we got -- we got it more uniform, it remained stable. But you still had to treat it because once in a while -- and he had to also be extraordinary careful with sun exposure because of a lot of things. And that's why he had the umbrellas all the time (INAUDIBLE) skin now.
KING: So when you have vitiligo, you have it all your life?
KLEIN: Usually. Almost uniformly. You don't just have a little bit of it. And it's most disconcerting not in white people, but in black people because you begin to look like a leopard.
KING: You can see it. Yes.
Did he have blotches?
KLEIN: He had blotches but we evened out almost all of them. And he was very, very devoted to treating it. I mean he wanted to look well. He wanted to look well for one group of people, his fans. He wanted to embrace and love his fans more than any performer I've ever known.
KING: Did he have hair?
KLEIN: He had lost a great deal of it. You forget this first fire...
KING: That was the Pepsi fire, right?
KLEIN: Yes. But then what happened is he used a great deal of what are called tissue expanders in his scalp, which are balloons that grow up -- blow up the scalp. And then what they do is they try to cut out the scar.
Well, because he had lupus, what happened is every time they would do it, the bald spot would keep enlarging.
So, I mean, he went through a lot of painful procedures with these tissue expanders until I put a stop to it. I said no more tissue expanders, because he had to wear a hat all the time and it was really painful for him.
KING: So what would his -- without the hat, what would he look like?
KLEIN: Well, he had a big raised ball on the top of his head because of this device. It would expand the tissue, which you cut out.
But (INAUDIBLE) would you -- (INAUDIBLE) too much stretch back in the scar, you understand?
KING: Did you see him one other time?
KLEIN: Of course I did. But he would have a stretch back on the scar. I mean the scar would get worse after they removed it. And I had to put a stop to it. So I told Michael, we have to stop this. And that's when I fired this plastic surgeon altogether. And I said I can't deal with this anymore. We're going to deal with me as your doctor or you're going to have to find another doctor if you want to work with him.
KING: What you can tell us about his changing face?
KLEIN: Well, I mean, I didn't know a whole lot through the whole changing face schedule, because I'm telling you that when I met him, he had done a -- a decent bit of surgery by then. I know...
KING: Was it done poorly?
KLEIN: Well, it's not done poorly, but I think that there's a time -- the magic is not knowing when to begin the big game. The secret is knowing when to end it.
And I think that he believed that his face was a work of art, which is fine with me.
But I think at one point that I wanted to stop the doctors from continuing it. Because it wasn't the doc -- Michael, I think, that wanted all these things. It was the surgeon who kept doing it. So I got rid of the surgeon.
KING: The surgeon got him to do it?
KLEIN: No, he did some of it himself. But he didn't know -- the surgeon did not know when to stop doing it. The judgment call there was (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Did you ever say to Michael, we're going too far?
KLEIN: I stopped him from going to the surgeon because I said this isn't working anymore, you have to stop it. And what I spent the last part of the year doing is rebuilding a lot of things that I thought were done poorly. And to look at it, because I didn't think he -- he had a -- OK, to him, his face was a work of art. You want to talk about Andy Warhol's work of art. And there are women in Paris and elsewhere -- and men -- who do works of art. Some of them implant things under their skins through surgeries.
KING: But there are plastic surgeon addicts, right -- people who keep going?
KLEIN: Yes. And there are also people who are -- it's called a dysmorphic disorder -- (INAUDIBLE) dysmorphic disorder, that you don't like the way you look, which represents 18 percent of patients that see a doctor.
KING: You can be beautiful, but look in the mirror and not think you're beautiful.
KLEIN: Oh, absolutely.
KING: Do doctors take advantage of somebody then? KLEIN: Well, I don't take advantage of anyone because I think that...
KING: But do -- does some doctors?
KLEIN: I think some doctors do, because I think there's so much distortion going around. I mean, you know, you have to understand, just go around and look at the lips that you say see around this city. You know, when you go out for dinner and you see these women who create these lips.
When I invented lip augmentation in '84, I had no idea what I was doing, in the sense that I had no idea it would become the number one use of soft tissue agents.
And when I see these people walking around with lips that look more like something, you know, something that belongs below the waist...
KING: They look ridiculous.
KLEIN: It's ridiculous, but you know...
KING: OK.
KLEIN: You can't -- here's the thing.
KING: Why...
KLEIN: You have to restore a face. You don't want to renovate it. You don't want to make people look like they're (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Why did he...
KLEIN: (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Why did he wear the mask?
KLEIN: He wore the mask because it sort of became like the white glove. He would...
KING: Oh, it was a -- it was a gimmick.
KLEIN: A gimmick. He had no reason other than to wear the mask than gimmickry.
KING: He also had his children wear masks.
KLEIN: No, he didn't have them -- that goes to the Bashir interview. We have to talk a little bit about that.
KING: That goes to what?
[A PORTION OF THIS TRANSCRIPT HAS BEEN REMOVED]
KLEIN: And I think in that interview, when he had the kids walking down the street with masks on, with like nylon masks on their face, the only time with masks they ever -- and they used to come to my house. And they used to come. They loved my dogs. I used to go over to their house.
I've never seen the children wearing those strange masks they had them walking down the street with ever.
KING: Huh.
I want to take a break. And when we come back, I want to talk about the nose.
KLEIN: OK.
KING: And I want to talk about some of the things you're angry about and want changed.
KLEIN: OK.
KING: And what was his relationship, Dr. Klein, with other members of the family?
Was there a relationship?
Coming up, along with that paternity issue and how he's handling all the beleaguering he's getting through all of this.
Don't get -- don't go away.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: We're back with the famed dermatologist.
The subject is Michael Jackson -- the changes to his nose.
Why did he do that?
And is it true that he wanted to look like Peter Pan?
KLEIN: I don't think he wanted to look like Peter Pan. I didn't see him implanting wings on the back of his back or doing anything like that, right?
KING: All right, what about the nose?
KLEIN: The nose was a very special thing, because his father and his brothers supposedly, from what I've read, made fun of his nose all the time. So he was very sensitive to the nose. And...
KING: What was wrong with his nose?
KLEIN: I originally didn't think there was much wrong with his nose.
KING: Yes. KLEIN: I thought he had a nice-looking nose. But in the beginning, it was never able to come off his body. But it got to the point where it was far too thin. It didn't look natural to me.
KING: Now, you helped him rebuild it?
KLEIN: I rebuilt it, yes.
KING: How?
KLEIN: Using fillers. I used Rezulin. I used hydronic acids because -- and they worked very well. And it's not -- it's an arduous procedure, because you don't want to put too much in. And you have to do it exactly, so you can flow the material so it's perfectly smooth.
So we rebuilt them. And I'm telling you that he was beginning to look like the nose was normal again. And that's all I wanted -- and regain the breathing, you know, passages of his nose, because there was a total collapse of the cartilage.
KING: In the last photos that we've seen, his nose has been built up, right?
He's looking better?
KLEIN: Yes.
KING: Was he still working at that?
KLEIN: No, because I think we got to the point where he was very happy with the way he looked and he filled in the cheeks a little bit and did a lot of little things.
But I mean what I do to an individual patient is what I do. And what I do is just restoration work, because I don't think people should look, again, like anything has been altered.
KING: Well, you're -- you're not a plastic surgeon.
KLEIN: No, but...
KING: So are you extending yourself when you're doing a nose like that?
KLEIN: No, I invented all this. I mean it's -- I'm not a -- I invented injectable esthetics, I mean, for better or for worse, it's what I've been doing since 1979. So I'm not extending myself whatsoever.
But if you ask a plastic surgeon, he'll say he invented everything, including the wheel.
KING: Are you on the war about injectables?
KLEIN: Well, the problem is they have approved a lot of injectables which are just... KING: The FDA?
KLEIN: The FDA has -- which are synthetics. Now, they've gotten approved without knowing what happens once they're injected under the skin. And when you inject something synthetic under your skin, whether it be injectable Plexiglas -- they're taking (ph) that off the market. Injectable bone or injectable suture material, your body will react against it and you'll get a foreign body reaction. And I get lumps.
KING: I thought the FDA is tough on drugs?
KLEIN: No, the FDA is run, more or less, by the drug companies. When you look at toxins now, the various toxins you use that relax muscles, if you read the black box FAA warning, the warning in Canada is to the patients, they're given it to them. The warning in Germany also in England. But the warnings here are only to the doctors who don't know what they're doing to begin with. Because what doctor isn't injecting a toxin?
So I think what we adequately have to do is teach doctors how to do it. The other thing is with these toxins, a lot of the science of research are done by doctors or even licensed Americans or foreign countries. How can you trust the data? Some of this data has been altered. So I'm in a war, yes. I'm working with a congressman and with a member of the House of Representatives, as well as the FBI and Justice Department to change this from happening because I think that the most important thing is patients.
KING: Is it ignorance or do the doctors know they're doing wrong?
KLEIN: The doctors are ignorant because you can't believe everything you read. That's what's happening in medical literature. Medical literature has turned into reading a mystery novel on all sorts of things. I mean, pain medication --
KING: You have a lot of clout, don't you?
KLEIN: I don't have that much clout, but I know people who have clout.
KING: Well hopefully keep us posted on the war.
KLEIN: I will.
KING: Was Michael happy with the way he looked?
KLEIN: Absolutely. Michael, they painted him as a very sad creature like Charlie Chaplin or something.
KING: He loved Chaplin.
KLEIN: Well, we once went to Disneyland and it was Disneyland Paris and at night, he brought Michael Jackson. What he did is, he loved way he walked because he just walked like Charlie Chaplin. So he took the cane and he starts imitating the way Michael Chaplin walks.
Every time Michael would turn around, Michael Jackson would hide the cane. So he's very, very funny that way. And I spent Christmas Eve with him with Carrie Fisher and his kids wanted to meet Princess Leia, it's all they wanted to meet. So I dragged Princess Leia over and he played with her and the kids were all on the floor because he was a person who was both a father and he loved them here dearly.
KING: We're going to talk about Debbie Rowe in a minute, but I want to ask, is it true what we've heard about how bright he was?
KLEIN: Michael? Michael was probably one of the most talented people because there are producers who he gave ideas to who told me if only if they had listened to him. But he wasn't educated in the way that we're standardly educated.
KING: But he was intelligent in his craft?
KLEIN: Oh, beyond. Fred Astaire told me, he's the greatest dancer of our time.
KING: Astaire said that?
KLEIN: Yes, and if you hear that from Astaire, who else are you going to hear it from?
KING: More about Michael's life and death after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Now, the Debbie Rowe part of the story. She was your nurse, right?
KLEIN: Yes.
KING: They met, I guess, in your office?
KLEIN: Yes.
KING: Was that a real love affair?
KLEIN: I don't know what love is in that sense of the imagination. I think that she loves him very much. She admired him very much. But if you think they're riding off in a horse-drawn carriage, I mean we have to put -- what is a normal relationship? We have to go back to Marie Bonaparte, who once said to Danny Kaye (ph) when he went to say, what do you have to tell me that's different? And she didn't even know who Danny Kaye was. She's the first woman of royal heritage to undergo analysis. She said to Danny Kaye, the normal (inaudible) have to be found and be found cured. Which means, who of us are normal? What is normal? So I'm telling you, was that a love affair, you want to know. I think she really cared about his welfare.
KING: It was not a sexual relationship?
KLEIN: I think they did have sex.
KING: You do?
KLEIN: Yes, I really do, and I can't guarantee that. I think they did have sex in their relationship.
KING: You think Michael ever had sex to father the children?
KLEIN: I don't know that answer, because I would that that it's possible that he did. You can't guarantee that. You can only guarantee things you see. I don't want to make any suppositions about anything in this interview, because I want this to be as truthful as possible.
KING: Now, what about all the rumors about you and the fathering of those children?
KLEIN: Here's the most important thing. Michael loved those children as a father. Those children loved him as a father. As far as I am concerned, that's the most important grouping that is.
KING: That's not answering the question.
KLEIN: No, because I'm not going to answer it the way you want me to answer it, because...
KING: Well, you can say no.
KLEIN: I can say no, then. I will say no if that's what you want to hear.
KING: No, I want to hear what you know.
KLEIN: What I will tell you is I think what's most important thing about this whole thing, to end this thing, is that the most important thing in who the father is who the father is -- who the children want their father to be.
And I will tell you this, I will say no, because the most important person to these children is how Michael loved them and how he loved his children and how they loved him. Because they would never pass him without saying, I love you, daddy. He would say I love you. I've never seen such emotional care...
(CROSSTALK)
KING: Earlier today, you said you couldn't answer that one way or the other.
KLEIN: I still can't answer it absolutely one way or another.
KING: So that means you donated sperm?
KLEIN: I once donated sperm. I don't know that you have to know...
KING: You donated to him.
KLEIN: No, absolutely not.
KING: Oh, you donated sperm to a sperm bank.
KLEIN: Once, to a sperm bank. But I don't think I should go over my legal affairs, because I think to the best of my knowledge, I'm not the father. I want to tell you that this discussion, however, is between Michael, his children and this person. It's not to be discussed who the father is over national television.
KING: Or, it's nobody's business.
KLEIN: It's no one's business.
KING: Except it's become the public's business. Isn't that a fact of life?
KLEIN: Let me tell you something, there's something called private lives. Noel Coward wrote about that. So can't we leave this alone? Can't we leave these children alone? These are brilliant, talented children. And forget this, and understand, this man loved these children. These children loved him.
KING: You don't feel you have to take a DNA test to prove anything?
KLEIN: if they want me to take a DNA test, they can have my DNA. I don't care at this point.
KING: Your concern is the kids.
KLEIN: My concern is his kids because I've never met children like this. These are the brightest children I've ever met, the best behaved children I've ever met. They come over my house, they behave wonderfully. I know how deeply he loved them and how deeply they loved him.
KING: That's obvious.
KLEIN: I don't want to destroy this relationship in any way, shape or form. I'll tell you this, no matter what, I will protect these children.
KING: How are you personally, Arnie Klein, dealing with all of this surrounding you, paparazzi following you?
KLEIN: I ignore it all.
KING: Stories that you're the father, I mean, come on. You can't put it away?
KLEIN: I know, but you have to understand, I've been through a few things in my life. I've been through Debbie Rowe marrying Michael. I've been through the pregnancy before. I've been through the suit in Botox. I've been through enough nonsense in my life. Understand, this is just another episode.
Now this is a little bigger because they're following me for a change but I think it's all, it's sensationalism, but it's happening to the world. We should more worry about what's happened at the FDA and drugs existing all over the playgrounds of high schools than what's happening to this, me.
KING: You wanted to tell me something about Michael and Ryan White, he died of AIDS.
KLEIN: Michael wanted to bring Ryan White to Neverland. And his plastic surgeon, the brilliant person, said you can't bring him in the Jacuzzi because you might you catch AIDS.
KING: You're kidding?
KLEIN: So Michael called me. No, he said that, honest to God. So Michael called me, and I had given Michael $1 million for AIDS, a check and said, will I catch AIDS if I go in the Jacuzzi with Ryan White? I said, no way. And he was very good friends with Ryan White until he did. And that's what people don't know.
KING: Did he go in the Jacuzzi?
KLEIN: Absolutely because you know what, he really cared. I have a brother whose learning disabled. He always asks me, every time he sees me. How is Stephen (ph) doing? So I want to tell you, this is a person who really cared about other people. He's unlike anyone person I ever met.
KING: Did you go to the memorial service?
KLEIN: I couldn't, I watched it on television and it was still too emotional for me. Because I understand that's who he was. I thought it was a very beautiful service. I know you were there, but you know, services like that, my father was a rabbi and I do not do well at memorial services.
KING: I don't either. What is Michael Jackson' legacy? You can tell us at CNN.com/LarryKing. Read our blog exclusive with Miko Brando's thoughts about that, as told to our own Todd Sperry. CNN.com/LarryKing, check it out, back in 60 seconds, Dr. Arnie Klein.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: The gut-wrenching moment at the memorial yesterday came at the end when Michael's 11-year-old daughter Paris talked through her tears. We've seen it many times. We want to get Arnie's reaction, watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS JACKSON, DAUGHTER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: Ever since I was born, daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just wanted to say I love him so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What do you feel when you look at that?
KLEIN: I can't, it's difficult to look at that because here's a man who changed the world. He enabled black people to do things they've never done before. We have the black caucus, we have a black president. He enabled so many things to do. He gave so many gifts to the world. He's the finest entertainer we ever had. But that's not unlike what they did to this poor Sarah Bernhardt. She died painless, except they had a big funeral for her. But now everybody wants all the gossip. The real gossip is, we've lost a greater entertainer of our life. We lost one of the greatest people, who was more generous of himself and of his heart than anybody I've ever known. And he's produced three incredible children and this is the thing.
KING: About the children, this is hypothetical. If you were the parent, this is hypothetical, would you go and talk to them? Would you do something about it? Would you let it ride?
KLEIN: If I was the parent, I would spend every moment of the day with the children.
KING: You'd become their father?
KLEIN: Absolutely.
KING: We'll be back right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: Before we get back to Dr. Klein, let's check in with Anderson Cooper, host of "AC 360" back in New York City. What's up tonight, Anderson?
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Larry, tonight we continue, as you are following the breaking news on the investigation into Michael Jackson's death. Randi Kaye is working some sources, learning more about the doctors who are being investigated by police. We'll have the latest on that.
And Sarah Palin, she says she's quitting because she's been forced to waste time and money defending herself against a host of accusations of ethics violations. So just what are those accusations against her? We'll tell you tonight.
And new details on the murder/suicide case of former NFL star Steve McNair. Tonight, new details on the double life he was leading and the chilling 911 tapes from the night he was killed. Those stories and more about what's next for Michael Jackson's kids, ahead on the program, Larry.
KING: Anderson Cooper, that's 10 Eastern, 7 Pacific.
We're back with Dr. Arnie Klein. How did the story, you think, surface about you and fatherhood? Where did that come from?
KLEIN: I don't have any idea whether it came from Debbie Rowe, I have no idea.
KING: Could it have come from Debbie Rowe?
KLEIN: Absolutely because I phoned her as soon as Michael passed away. My greatest concern was what was going to happen to the children. I told her that I didn't want to see in three years, the children doing the next version of the Jackson 3, their intelligence dancing away because these children are bright. They've gone to film school.
KING: Do you think she said something about it?
KLEIN: I don't know that, but all I told her was this. I want you to get active and be the mother, if she is the mother, of these children.
KING: Do you think she should get custody?
KLEIN: I don't know if she should get custody. I'm very worried that the custody may go into a situation that is incorrect. I think the most important thing is there's this woman Grace who was their nanny, who is incredible. She should remain their nanny and help raise the children. I worry about the Jackson family only because I worry slightly about the father from what Michael told me about that father.
KING: In what way?
KLEIN: That he was very difficult to deal with Michael. They announced his new record label at the memorial. And he seems more and more interested in making money than dealing with the --
KING: What do you think of the rest of the family?
KLEIN: I think Janet is wonderful who I happen to know. I know Randy. He seems nice to me. But I think they're going to go on and put a performance on again because they want to do is they want to perform.
KING: They're performers.
KLEIN: Yeah, they're performers. But you heard some speeches yesterday from very controversial speakers. I think the most wonderful speech was the person I thought would be the least was Al Sharpton when he talked about Michael at his studio. Because Michael was having fights with Tommy Mottola, it's not how he spoke, but he spoke really eloquently yesterday. So I just want to assure that Debbie Rowe or someone take good care of these kids.
KING: Was Katherine the stronghold of the family?
KLEIN: I think she is but she's, how would old she now?
KING: 79.
KLEIN: Do you think it's difficult for a 79-year-old to raise adolescent children? That would be my question. Also, Debbie Rowe has gained her rights back to the children. Now, you may not think she's the best person in the world, but having worked with her for 25 years as a nurse, she can be a very loving person. So if she's combined with Grace, it could be a wonderful combination. But you know what, I can't make these decisions nor do I want to.
KING: Have you gone to see the family?
KLEIN: I have not gone to see the family because I didn't want to go see the family because I had difficulty with Jesse Jackson because I don't know him very well nor Al Sharpton who I didn't know very well. And once the family invites me to visit them, I'll most certainly visit them so I get to see the children. And Ii would love to. I have to get invited to visit.
KING: What do you think should happy with Michael's body?
KLEIN: The burial.
KING: Neverland?
KLEIN: Wherever he wants to be buried or wherever he wants to put the body because I believe very firmly that they should go be buried. I mean, I'm an Orthodox Jew, once you've died, the body's just a body. It belongs in the ground.
KING: Orthodox you bury the next day.
KLEIN: I know, so I believe he should have been buried already. But I think that they want to keep it stored in Neverland until they bury it. I think you have to stop, put an end to this carnival atmosphere.
I think it's time to put the body in the ground and you know, and get on with the rest of the world and get on with the great things that he's done and remember how he changed the world in such a positive manner.
KING: Arnie, will you come back?
KLEIN: Absolutely.
KING: I'd like to go into your mind on lots of things including when we do shows about treatment with drugs. We have some people coming on, panel discussions.
KLEIN: I'd love to. I'm not a drug expert, I only am an expert in injectables, but those are drugs.
KING: Thank you, Arnie.
KLEIN: I really appreciate it, thank you.
KING: We want to thank the millions of you who watched CNN here in the United States yesterday during our all-day coverage of the Jackson memorial. We appreciate the online viewers too and thanks to everyone out there for making CNN number one. When we come back, the little boy from "Britain's Got Talent" who performed at Jackson's memorial yesterday. He is here next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KING: An extraordinary young man joins us now, Shaheen Jafargholi. He was a finalist on "Britain's Got Talent." He was on this program at that time. He performed at yesterday's Michael Jackson memorial. Michael had invited Shaheen to London for his upcoming tour. Shaheen was a big hit Tuesday. Let's take a look at him singing it Michael's song "Who's Loving You."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHAHEEN JAFARGHOLI, SINGER: (SINGING)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: How did they get you to do that? How did they call you? What happened?
JAFARGHOLI: Well, you know, Michael was meant to be doing his string of tour dates and because I was on "Britain's Got Talent," he saw me on YouTube and he wanted me to appear with him on his --
KING: In London.
JAFARGHOLI: Yeah in London. And so you know, unfortunately he passed away. And so they were setting up a memorial very short notice, you know. And they were discussing it with Kenny Ortega, the guy who was going to direct the show in London and you know, they finally agreed -- apparently he used to watch me on YouTube every day. He used to really like me.
KING: Did you like the idea?
JAFARGHOLI: I just, when I first heard, I couldn't believe it. I mean, I was to be honest, honored to be invited. When I found out I was in the '02 dates, that was amazing as well.
KING: You were going to sing in that concert.
JAFARGHOLI: I was going to be singing a duet of "Feel The World" with him.
KING: So they flew you over and you rehearsed. And what did it feel like to perform at the memorial?
JAFARGHOLI: I just felt really honored, blessed, that I'd been given the opportunity and also just the chance to say good-bye to my idol and my hero in a way that no other person on earth ever could. I had a great opportunity. I'm really glad it happened.
KING: How old are you, Shaheen?
JAFARGHOLI: I'm 12. KING: What's the background of the name, Jafargholi?
JAFARGHOLI: I'm half Iranian and the rest of me is Welsh.
KING: Born in London?
JAFARGHOLI: No, born in Wales which is a small country in London.
KING: You live there now?
JAFARGHOLI: Yeah, I live in Wales.
KING: What's your goal?
JAFARGHOLI: I think it's just to keep doing what I'm doing, to be able to sing and just you know, just record maybe, just be out there and be able to show people how much I love to do this.
KING: Well, you have obviously extraordinary talent. Do you dance?
JAFARGHOLI: Well, I'm not saying I can't dance but you know, my main stronger point is singing and just basically what I love to do all the time. I just love getting the chance to get up on the stage and sing to lots of people.
KING: When you were singing, Berry Gordy was singing right in front of me, the famed founder of Motown. So I leaned over to him and I said do you know this kid? And he said I don't know who this is, but if I had a record company, I'd sign him tomorrow. Do you have a recording contract?
JAFARGHOLI: Not at the moment. I mean, we're waiting to see what's going to happen with me in the future. I mean, hopefully, you know, I'll be able to carry on singing basically just get better and progress.
KING: Are you good at school?
JAFARGHOLI: I'm like really high level at school. I love going to school. I just love being normal and being with my friends and you know, just sitting in. I love going from one extreme to the other.
KING: Do you vocalize every day?
JAFARGHOLI: I sing all the time. I just sing to myself. I just forget sometimes.
KING: You just start singing. I'm going to have you sing in a minute. But when you're 12, couldn't your voice change?
JAFARGHOLI: Well, everybody, every person goes through that change. But when I was on the show, "Britain's Got Talent," the vocal coach she said I can hear in your voice that it is going to obviously break, which everyone thinks, I think it's going to break but get stronger. So hopefully.
KING: More tenor or less tenor.
JAFARGHOLI: More tenor.
KING: Sing something for us. Anything you walk down the street and sing, sing.
JAFARGHOLI: I'll sing "Who's Loving You."
KING: OK, we have about 45 seconds, go.
JAFARGHOLI: (SINGING)
KING: It was that natural to you as a kid? When did you start singing, when you were 5, 6-years-old?
JAFARGHOLI: In front of an audience, yes, but ever since I could talk, I mean I was always singing words to all my favorite songs, tunes would just stick in my head. I mean, it helped that my mom always used to play lots of Motown and Michael Jackson around me so I grew up listening to all these amazing songs.
KING: Wow, you have an extraordinary future in front of you. You're quite a young man, proud to know you.
JAFARGHOLI: You thank you very much.
KING: Thank you, Shaheen. Shaheen Jafargholi, it is safe to say, it is hard to predict, you are going to be hearing a lot from him. By the way, I'm going to guest tomorrow night on "The Tonight Show" with Conan O'Brien. You might want to tune in. Right now, tune in for Anderson Cooper and "A.C. 360." Anderson.
