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Campbell Brown
New Information About Murdered Florida Couple; Behind Sarah Palin's Popularity; What It'll Take to Beat the Taliban
Aired July 11, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN HOST: We'll talk to a doctor who may know.
Also, why is Sarah Palin still so popular with Republicans even after her controversial resignation?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SARAH PALIN, (R-AK) FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I'm certainly not a quitter. I'm a fighter. And that's why I'm doing this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Is she outsmarting the beltway pundits and clear the decks for 2012?
Plus, the tape you have to hear, a man holding his wife hostage call a reporter during the standoff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is your only source for news. CNN "Primetime" begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. We've got those questions tonight, but we start, as always, autonomous with the mash up, of course, our look at the stories making an impact and the moments you may have missed. We are watching it all so you don't have to.
The top story this week, well, no contest. It was as close as we come to a cultural happening these days, both moving, captivating, and a little bit strange, something we're all going to be talking about for a very long time.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: From the Staples Center today, part church, part concert hall, for the final good-bye to Michael Jackson.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no model for this. I don't think we've ever seen anything like this, 20,000 people, a service, the kind of speculation and outpouring and whatever we have seen in recent days. We didn't know what we were going to get.
BROWN: Michael Jackson's brothers were his pallbearers, all wearing his trademark white glove. This would be the last time the Jackson 5 would share the stage together.
BROWN: The fans and the curious gathered to say good-bye. Dancing in Harlem, crying in London.
Jamilla Abdullah flew from London on her own without a ticket to the memorial. Finally someone gave her one.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was grade to be amongst the other fans and to just share the grief and loss, but also to celebrate Michael and his life.
BLITZER: Today's final tribute to the king of pop was something of an international spectacle, wasn't it?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sure was, Wolf.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: To give us a sense of what this all means for us in India, it's our top story.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the dark of Australia's winter night with balloons in Moscow, and makeshift shrines in London.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Early viewer estimates have been estimated at above a billion people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Online activity also through the roof, global web traffic surging nearly 33 percent. And the ceremony itself, well a true Jackson-worthy production, a showbiz spectacle that will felt surprisingly intimate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I feel the king of pop is not big enough for him. I think he is simply the greatest entertainer that ever lived.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Maybe now, Michael, they will leave you alone.
REV. AL SHARPTON: I want his three children to know, wasn't nothing strange about your daddy. It was strange what your daddy had to deal with. But he dealt with it!
(APPLAUSE)
BROWN: Of course, for all the star power in that room, for all the glowing tributes and the soaring harmonies, this was the moment that really hit home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DAUGHTER: Ever since I was born, daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just wanted to say I love him so much.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP) UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Little Paris Jackson, obviously, a totally unscripted moment as we just heard.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Broke your heart when she started to cry to say my father is the best father. Absolutely, it was the closing words of the memorial.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think 11-year-old Paris Jackson, I think, just reminded the world that this was a man, and not just a musician or a dancer or a performer.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's been so much curiosity surrounding the children for the life they have already led and so much ahead with so many questions left unanswered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jackson's three children now living with their grandmother, Katherine. The next custody hearing when we might hear from Paris and Prince Michael's mother Debbie Rowe is set for a week from Monday.
Also Monday, President Obama will be back at work in Washington. He's now on his way home from Ghana. That's following his trip to the G-8 summit in Italy.
When this Rome, Mr. Obama did he Romans do, or as presidents do. He had an audience with Pope Benedict XVI. They sat for 30 minutes, quoting now, "disagreeing without being disagreeable" on subjects like stem cell research.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president met up with Benedict XVI in Rome. The Vatican says the two discussed immigration, Middle East peace, and aid to developing nations. They also reportedly discussed abortion rights.
The Pope met the first family, and he gave them a special blessing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You can see some of the pictures there with the Pope and President Barack Obama, very significant, especially given the reception that president Obama received from some Catholics in this country just a month and a half ago. You remember the controversy at Notre Dame.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It certainly was friendly, respectful. Obviously, there are differences, but there was this search for common ground, no doubt about that. Vatican in the preparations, I think, going out of its way to show respect for the American president.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: CNN's Anderson Cooper traveled with the president in Ghana and will be here Monday with his one-on-one exclusive access with the president.
And with president Obama abroad, Republicans seized the moment, saying Rome is burning back home in the USA. They hammered him on the economy, saying his plan to create jobs is failing big-time.
Funny thing though, that very same day some Democrat governors were on Capitol Hill saying pretty much the exact opposite. Here's the view now from the right and the view from the left.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The purpose of the stimulus was putting the unemployed back to work. Mr. Chairman, these troubling job numbers have shown beyond a doubt that, so far, the stimulus has failed to do that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are killing jobs with every proposal we see here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're doing everything other than helping to create jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The American Recovery and Reinvestment Act has really been a lifeline. It is helping us to create and save jobs in Maryland.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Helped us retain thousands of teachers, social workers, health care workers, and others.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Remember, it's just barely July -- July, August, September, October. You will you see unbelievable amounts of people coming back to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Well, I guess that depends on who you ask.
In North Korea, a rare sighting of leader Kim Jong-Il this week appearing at a memorial service for his father, not looking too healthy himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is the second major state event Kim Jong-Il has attended since reports surfaced last summer that had he suffered a stroke.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Obviously appearing much thinner than we had seen in pictures the past.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The 67-year-old leader walked with a slight limp, thought to be a lingering affect of that stroke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Kim Jong-Il's youngest son expected to take over North Korea when the time comes.
Well, it is July. It's getting pretty buggy out there. And this week, that has some powerful folks dodging some fearsome flies. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a fly here. Are you going to swat it like President Obama?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm trying to see if I can find it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Asked me to sit -- who are you killing?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A fly. There's a fly. Someone I know.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Let me just tell you that Barack Obama went boom and got it, and you're doing this all day.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Yes, our staff did add those sound effects.
OK, people, let's take a break and learn from the master.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Hey. Get out of here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's the most persistent fly I've ever seen.
Nice.
OBAMA: Now, where were we?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that is how it's done. That is also the mash up.
Janet Jackson trying to intervene to save her brother from drug abuse, that is next. But first, here's what one of Jackson's long- time doctors told Larry King about his addiction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I knew at one point that he was using Diprivan when he was on tour in Germany, and so he was using it with an anesthesiologist to go to sleep at night.
I told him he was absolutely insane.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Of course, Michael Jackson dominated the headlines this week. And CNN reported earlier that Janet Jackson was so worried about her brother's drug use that she tried to stage an intervention. But Michael ordered security guards to keep his family out.
We wanted to find out how an intervention might have helped. Howard Samuels runs the Wonderland Center in Los Angeles, and he's joining us tonight.
Welcome to you, Dr. Samuels.
HOWARD SAMUELS, EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR, WONDERLAND CENTER: Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: I do want to ask you about those reports that you were in contact with Michael Jackson's family to try to get him some help. Can you confirm that?
SAMUELS: No. All my conversations and all my clients are all confidential, and I cannot talk about any of that. But I can talk about the process of addiction.
BROWN: We just heard that Janet Jackson had tried to stage an intervention of sorts, but that Michael Jackson had refused to speak with her, refused to take calls from his mother. I mean, is that typical behavior, I guess, for a long-term drug addict?
SAMUELS: Without question. You know, families, it's so important for families to continue interventions on the people that they love. And the addict will do everything possible to run from the family, not take phone calls, to cut communication, because when their drugs are threatened, then their whole existence is threatened, because they are so dependent on the drug itself.
BROWN: So given his resistance, if you had had an intervention, or if you had been asked to do an intervention for Michael Jackson, like you've done with so many celebrities, what would you do? What could you say? What might have worked?
SAMUELS: Well, first of all, it's in any intervention, the power is with the family. If you don't have any financial power over the addict, then the only power you have is emotional leverage.
And so in doing an intervention on somebody, you have to bear the family to come in and to try to hit some kind of emotional connection with the client where they can have an understanding that their drug is blocking that intimacy and that love from their families and from the people that care about them the most.
I mean, I'm a recovering addict myself, and I'm 24 years clean and sober. My family saved my life by doing an intervention on me. They continued to intervene, and the only way they were able to get through to me was being able to hit that emotional chord that I was so sick and I was so damaged during that time.
BROWN: We've heard so many reports about the people around him who were enabling him, it's charged. What do you think about the people who surround Michael Jackson? Or, from what we know -- and I'm -- presumably this applies to a lot of celebrity who have drug problems. This is the biggest obstacle to getting help.
SAMUELS: Oh, it's horrible. I mean, when you have somebody that has so much money, so much fame, they surround themselves with a minion of individuals that will help that addict continue in their addiction.
They'll get drugs, they'll lie, they'll do whatever they can to protect the celebrity, because if they don't do what the celebrity asks them to do, then they're out of a job. And then they are replaced with somebody else.
So it's, you know, you have you these people, it's like the cult of celebrity, that need to be around these individuals, and they don't care how they do it. They don't even really care about the individual. They just care about the "celebrity-ness" of it.
BROWN: Let me say thank you to Dr. Samuels for joining us tonight.
SAMUELS: You're welcome.
BROWN: I really appreciate your time and your insight on this issue.
SAMUELS: Absolutely.
BROWN: Michael Jackson asking about Lisa Ling in North Korea in the days before he died. A close friend of the pop star joins us on what was really going on in those final weeks.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker was a long-time friend of Michael Jackson and has some revealing insights into the final weeks of the pop star's life, including, of all things, Jackson's desire to help free two American journalists being held in North Korea.
Gotham Chopra is the son of well-known doctor Deepak Chopra and runs his own blog defeated to social wellness. He joins us earlier from Los Angeles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Gotham, you last spoke with Michael Jackson a few weeks before he died. Tell me about that conversation.
GOTHAM CHOPRA, MICHAEL JACKSON'S LONGTIME FRIEND: Yes. It was an unexpected conversation. I've known Michael for many years. He called me in the middle of the night, as he often did, inquiring about another close friend of mine named Laura Ling, who, as you guys have reported extensively, is one of the journalists who's been detained in North Korea for the last several months.
Michael had read online somewhere or heard about Laura's predicament and become curious and sympathetic to it, and he wanted to know if I had spoken to Laura, her family, and how she was doing. And then he went on further to say while he was looking online, he saw pictures of Kim Jong-Il wearing the same sorts of military jackets that Michael often wore either in public or in his shows, and he suspected or he thought, maybe hoped that perhaps Kim Jong Il, the Dear Leader in North Korea, might be a fan of his, in which case he might be able to get involved in some sort of diplomatic mission.
BROWN: I mean, it's shocking, when you think about it. But what do you think he would have done? Would he have really tried to reach out to him, to Kim Jong-Il?
CHOPRA: Well, it is shocking, I suppose, to hear.
But if you've known Michael, and I had known him for many years, I mean, he's many things to many people, but one of the things certainly is a humanitarian from big huge things like "We are the World" to smaller issues like this that he felt deeply about, especially when there was a personal connection.
What he would have done -- I mean, Michael was, yes -- I mean he talked to many people. He would call them in the middle of the night, even strangers, and, you know, ask questions. He was beside who was hungry for knowledge.
As we all know, he lived a pretty isolated life, so he was not above just picking up the phone and making a phone call. Now how you get Kim Jong-Il's phone number, I'm not sure, but if anybody could, he might have been able to.
BROWN: You're probably right on that front.
Gotham, let me ask you about this. Earlier in the show, one of our reporters reported that in 2004, Michael Jackson's employees told authorities that he was taking ten or more, even up to 40 Xanax pills a night to sleep, and that he was drugged up, that he was incoherent. Did you see him that way?
CHOPRA: No. I mean, you know, I think, as has been talked about, and I certainly talked about it to some degree, I think there was an awareness that he had a problem, and it was something that some of us close to him tried to get involved with. But I certainly wasn't aware to what intensity.
And, you know, even now, to be honest, talking about it, I don't think, I certainly as a friend of his and, you know, somebody who empathizes with what the family's going through right now, don't really feel comfortable.
It's an investigation, like we all know, and certainly it will come up with some conclusive answers, hopefully, so that the family and Michael can rest in peace.
BROWN: You have said that you weren't entirely surprised when you heard the news about his death, and that he had a lot of agony in his life. I mean, give us a sense what he was going through that made you feel that way. CHOPRA: Well, I mean he was going through everything that has been talked about for the last ten or 15 years. And yes, Michael's life was one of agony and ecstasy. And I would say, except for his children, which were the light of his life over the last 10, 15 years, it was mostly agony.
And I think that was difficult for him, and it was something that he talked about, and it was painful to watch as a friend. But, you know, it's something that he did deal with, and, unfortunately, it may have led in some ways to his premature death.
But, you know, yes. I don't think it was surprising necessarily. It was some degree shocking to hear about it, obviously.
BROWN: Do you think people feel differently about Michael Jackson now than they might have before he died? Do you think people have the right image of your friend?
CHOPRA: Yes, I don't think there is a right or wrong image. I mean, he was a very charismatic, very conflicted person, you know. He achieved a lot, obviously, during his life.
He'll -- I'm sure as time goes by, he won't have a single legacy. You know, today we're talking about his humanitarian endeavors, and certainly, hopefully, those will be some of the ongoing legacies. Certainly his music will live on forever, and I'm sure there will be other things that people will talk about.
But, you know, I think it's been nice certainly in the last week or so the way he's been remembered, you know. I think it's been meaningful to his family, and ultimately that's very important to anybody who cares about him.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Our news maker Monday, Judge Robert Bork. His nomination to the Supreme Court fails. We'll ask him about current Supreme Court nominee Judge Sonia Sotomayor after the first day of her nomination hearings. That is Monday at 8:00 p.m. right here on CNN.
Did a suburban Philadelphia swim club really ban kids because they're black? Shocking charges of discrimination, and tonight, a response.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello everybody, I'm Don Lemon live here at CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. We'll get to Campbell Brown in just a moment, but first I want to give you some of the headlines here.
Police in Beulah, Florida, say they're closer to finding who murdered a Florida couple in a brutal home invasion. The couple is leaving behind 16 children, many of them adopted, some with special needs. A van captured on surveillance video at the home has been found. Two people are now being questioned, and police say they are making a lot of progress.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SHERIFF DAVID MORGAN, ESCAMBIA COUNTRY, FLORIDA: Our investigators slogged for the first 36 to 40 hours and hit a numerous number of walls. And then here within the last ten hours, you know, the dam has broke. And so we've got some very, very good leads that we're currently pursuing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: Police are still looking for a third person sought for questioning in that case.
Some emotional moments for President Barack Obama as he visited Africa for the first time since taking office. Crowds of people clamored just to get a glimpse at America's first African-American president, who wrapped up his visit tonight.
In a speech to the parliament of Ghana, President Obama praised the Sub-Saharan nation as a beacon of democracy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The people of Ghana have worked hard to put democracy on a firmer footing with repeated peaceful transfers of power even in the wake of closely contested elections.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: The president and the first family also toured the Cape Coast castle which the British used as a slave dungeon. He compared it to a recent visit to a German concentration camp.
It is a no-go for the space shuttle Endeavour. Today's launch was scrubbed after a stormy Cape Canaveral night. You can see bolt after bolt -- look at that -- of lightning hitting right near the launch pad.
Technicians are checking for damage, but so far they haven't found any problems. This is the third time Endeavour's liftoff has been delayed. NASA will try it again tomorrow night. Let's wish them luck.
I'm Don Lemon. I'll see you back here at 10:00 p.m. Eastern. Campbell Brown continues right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We have new developments tonight in the controversy over a swimming club in the Philadelphia area, where dozens of kids were asked not to return to the pool after a visit last month.
In all, 65 kids from a day camp, many of them black or Hispanic, were kicked out, and there are claims that the children were subject to racist remarks.
The club's president John Duesler only added to the tension when he told a local TV station, quote, "There was concern that a lot of kids would change the complexion and the atmosphere of the club."
Well, today he tried to clear the air, and you're going to hear that in a moment. But first, I want you to hear from the woman who runs the day camp and her son, who was at the pool that day, as they described how it all began.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALTHEA WRIGHT, CREATIVE STEPS DAY CAMP: Thirty-five minutes into our swim session, the children came down the hill and said Miss Wright, Miss Wright, some of the members are saying things. They don't want any black kids in the pool.
I said, wait a minute, shh. Who's saying this? And they said right up there, Miss Wright.
So Dr. John Duesler was sitting on the picnic benches, and I addressed one of the members that was saying derogatory remarks. And Dr. Duesler assured me that he would handle it.
BROW: Marcus, when you were at the pool, you heard some of the grown-ups talking about you and your friends. Tell me what they said.
MARCUS ALLEN WRIGHT, DAY CAMP DIRECTOR'S SON: They were saying, like, they didn't want like these black kids in here, and that they were upset that they were in here. And they were also saying like how, like they, like were afraid that they might like we might do something to their children, or try stealing something from them.
BROWN: Alethea, how did you find out that you weren't welcome back to the Valley Club?
WRIGHT: As I explained before, Dr. John Duesler said he would take care of it. A couple of days later, one of the members was shouting out, they assured they would make sure that we never returned.
But Dr. Duesler told me that he would handle it. But two days later, Dr. Duesler called me and said, regretfully, Miss Wright, the membership has overthrown me, and we're going to have to rescind from you guys coming to the club.
BROWN: Alethea, I know you just finished a parents' meeting. What happened?
WRIGHT: The parents are still outraged. Some of them are trying to explain racism to their children. We have children that are upset. We're probably going to have to have, more than likely, a psychologist come in to speak to the children.
And this -- we should not be experiencing this in 2009. We are just coming together as a country. We just made a statement to the world and here we are, back at this again. It feels like it's a slap in the face that a country for where we're trying to move.
And the Valley Swim Club is going to get left behind, because America is going to move forward, and we're going to send a message that this is not acceptable.
And the message that I'm told, the other statement, the initial statement they sent, we did not want to change the complexion and the atmosphere of our club? I'm appalled that they would even put something like that in writing.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN HOST: Now, when a CNN camera crew showed up yesterday to try to get some answers, the club told us to leave. Since then, the story has swept through the national media, and now, finally, the club's president, John Duesler, and his wife have decided to tell their side of the story to our own Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN DUESLER, PRESIDENT, THE VALLEY CLUB: We severely underestimated the number of children and our capacity to handle these groups. We were not prepared for it. And that's the only reason. It was a safety issue, and that's the only reason that the children, we felt it was not safe for them to be here.
I think it's important for everyone in the nation to know that this is totally untrue, and it's unfounded, and this is not what we represent here at the valley swim club.
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: What would you say to the little boy who you saw cry, the youngster that couldn't believe that this kind of thing was happening in this day?
DUESLER: Well, like I said, the week before, you know, he was here with his class. We were kidding around together. You know, I was making jokes with him. It was Miss Wright's son, who, actually I had spoken to about the camp coming.
And I would tell him that I apologize deeply for any misunderstanding. It was never our intention to hurt anyone or for anyone to be offended here. And this is a terrible misunderstanding.
And I would actually, I would send my best wishes to the camp, and all the camps really, because they have gotten an outpouring of supported from all over the country.
BERNICE DUESLER, SWIM CLUB PRESIDENT'S WIFE: And they deserve it. She's doing wonderful work giving these children a safe place to be, which is what we were trying to do also. The response against my husband is unbearable because as I said, he's not one of the good guys. He's one of the great guys. He doesn't deserve this. He is kind, tolerant person that would do anything for anyone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, this controversy is far from over. Pennsylvania's human relations commission has now launched an investigation and Senator Arlen Specter, who calls the allegations "extremely disturbing," is also looking into the case.
A reporter covering a hostage crisis becomes part of the story when the suspect calls her. You'll see it all play out on video.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SHENKMAN: The only the one I want to die are cops. I don't want anybody else to die, just cops. The cops challenge me and try to, try to take me, and six to eight cops lose their life. And, of course, I die. To me that would be the ultimate success.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This next story is almost too incredible even if it were a movie plot. But it is real, a lot of it caught on tape. Police say this man kidnapped his ex-wife. He held her at gunpoint for most of a day, holding off police by threatening to blow up the house.
Well, luckily, she escaped, and he later set fire to the house, which burned to the ground.
During the standoff, the suspect, Richard Shenkman, repeatedly called a local newspaper reporter. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAREN FLORIN, "THE DAY": What made you call me?
SHENKMAN: I trust you.
FLORIN: You do trust me?
SHENKMAN: I do absolutely. I think you're a good reporter and I think you mean well.
The only one I want to die are cops. That's it. I mean, I don't want anybody else to die, just cops.
To me a success, this would be the ultimate success -- I get my 12 demands met and I walk out of here. The cops challenge me and try to, try to take me, and you know, six to eight cops lose their life. And, of course, I die. To me that would be the ultimate success. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Karen Florin who writes for "The Day" in New London, Connecticut, is joining us right now. Karen, first off, you had a little bit of history with this man. You did know Richard Shenkman sort of socially or casually, I guess. What on earth is going through your mind as this is happening?
FLORIN: I was panicked that he was going to kill his wife and kill himself and take anybody else out that he could possibly take out. He was crazed.
BROWN: Well, did you -- based on what you knew of him? Because, as I said, did you know him. Did you think he was unstable? I mean you were very concerned this could go in any direction, huh?
FLORIN: I'm the court reporter here, and I've been covering his nasty divorce and an arson case. And he's been growing increasingly unstable and had promised me during several other phone calls that something big was going to happen.
BROWN: Richard Shenkman called you four times that day, and at three of those times he actually did let you speak to his ex-wife Nancy. And I want to play for our viewers some of that. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICHARD SHENKMAN: Whatever you want to say, Nancy, I don't want this to be that I'm controlling what you say. Karen's a friend. You can say anything you want to say to Karen.
NANCY SHENKMAN: I don't want either of us to be hurt. I want both of us to come through this and move on.
RICHARD SHENKMAN: I don't want to take innocent people's lives.
FLORIN: Well, then do you have your wife there, ex-wife?
RICHARD SHENKMAN: Because she had her head on my shoulder, and I waited three years for that, and it was worth it. On my last day, it is worth it to me.
There's nothing at risk to have a priest at the police station giving her her last rites.
FLORIN: I don't understand why you want a priest to give her her last rites if you're going to harm her.
RICHARD SHENKMAN: Because they're going to harm here. They're going to do it. They're going to call my bluff. They're going to storm the house. They're not going to let me continue this much longer.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: She had to have been terrified. What was your sense of how she was handling this situation?
FLORIN: I thought it was amazing that she was composed enough to string together sentences, honestly. And I was so happy that he put her on the phone so that she had a voice and she had a say in what was going on, as well.
BROWN: And Karen, Nancy did eventually escape. Explain how she escaped, and what, quickly, what happened after that last phone call.
FLORIN: OK. Well, I guess they had sent a mechanical robot up to the front door. And it freaked out Richard and he went to go investigate noises, and pulled her down into a bunk earn chained her to a wall.
And when he went to investigate the noise, she unscrewed it, broke loose, and ran for her life. She said she was afraid he was going to come up behind her and shoot her in the back of the head.
BROWN: Wow. Karen, I got to give you credit for saying so calm while all of this is happening and giving her time, or, you know, the police time to deal with this. And the facial expressions were worthy, as well.
Karen Florin from "The Day" in New London, Connecticut, thanks so much for joining us. Appreciate it.
FLORIN: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: Tonight's breakout story. CNN's Michael Ware's incredible reporting from Pakistan deep inside Taliban country and his warning about what it will take to defeat them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL WARE, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: To put it simply, America cannot win the war in Afghanistan. Certainly can't win it with bombs and bullets, and it can't win it in Afghanistan alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: If you watch CNN, you have seen Michael Ware. He has spent more time covering the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan than probably any other western reporter.
Well, tonight he's our breakout with an incredible piece of reporting. He tracked the Taliban leaders who were targeting and killing U.S. soldiers to their hiding places in a remote mountain region of Pakistan.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WARE: I came to these mountains to unravel how the Taliban in Afghanistan are based from here across the border in Pakistan. In these remote mountain valleys of Pakistan's northwest frontier province, the Taliban can hide, train, smuggle weapons, and launch military strikes against U.S. forces in Afghanistan.
For generations, the border here has been little more than a vague blur among the peaks. And that is what is crippling the American effort in Afghanistan.
To put it simply, America cannot win the war in Afghanistan. Certainly can't win it with bombs and bullets and it can't win it in Afghanistan alone.
So part of the answer lies here where I'm standing in these mountain valleys in Pakistan on the Afghan border, because this is Al Qaeda and Taliban territory.
WARE (on camera): Right now there's as many as 100 Taliban on that mountaintop between the snow-capped peaks and amid those trees. They're currently under siege from local villages who are driving them from their bunkers.
But at end of the day, it's the Pakistani military who tolerates the presence of groups like the Taliban, and it's not until America can start cutting deals with these people that there's any hope of the attacks on American troops coming to an end.
WARE (voice-over): The key leader the U.S. may have to deal with is this man, Mullah Mohammed Omar, the one-eyed cleric who actually created the Taliban and led its regime, the man who after the 9/11 attacks sheltered Osama bin Laden, choosing war with the U.S. rather than surrender bin Laden.
Even with a $10 million reward on his head, Mullah Omar has defied all-American attempts to capture or kill him. He still commands the Afghan Taliban as they continue killing U.S. and NATO troops. He and other top commanders do all of this, according to U.S. intelligence, from sanctuaries here in Pakistan.
It was the Pakistan military who helped create the Taliban. When the CIA was funding many of these same Afghan groups in the 1980s in their war against the Soviets, it was the Pakistan military that delivered the money, expertise, and weapons, like stinger missiles.
Now, for the first time in this CNN interview, the Pakistan military concedes it still maintains contact with the Taliban. At the military headquarters we met Major Athar Abbas, who concedes the army's links with the Taliban were toned down after 9/11, but --
MAJ. GEN. ATHAR ABBAS, PAKISTAN ARMY SPOKESMAN: But having said that, no intelligence organization in the world shuts its last door on any other organization.
WARE: And more than talking to the Taliban, the general says the Pakistan military can actually get the Taliban to sit down with the United States and broker a ceasefire.
WARE (on camera): And that's where Pakistan can perhaps provide valuable assistance to the American mission?
ABBAS: I think, yes, that can be worked out. That's possible.
WARE (voice-over): And this is one of the men who says he can help work that deal.
GEN. HAMID GUL, (RET.), FORMER DIRECTOR OF ISI: People like me who serve the cause of the freedom of Afghanistan.
WARE: Former CIA ally General Hamid Gul, once the head of Pakistan's equivalent of the CIA known as the ISI, he is famed as the godfather of the Taliban.
GUL: The guarantees can be given, no problem.
WARE (on camera): How? In terms of American national interest, who does America need to dialogue with?
GUL: Mullah Omar, no one else.
WARE (voice-over): Mullah Omar, the most important Taliban leader.
But to get him and the other Taliban to the table, Pakistan wants something in return. It wants the United States to use its influence to reign in Pakistan's number one military rival, India.
India's close association with the U.S.-backed government in Afghanistan worries the Pakistanis. And the Pakistanis accuse India of supporting armed separatists in one of Pakistan's provinces.
And senior U.S. officials tell CNN the Obama administration is willing to raise those concerns with India, and the U.S. is willing to talk with Mullah Omar and other Taliban commanders.
Michael Ware, CNN.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Has celebrity overtaken experience as a qualification to be a successful politician? We're going to tackle that question and consider Sarah Palin next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOV. SARAH PALIN, (R-AK) FORMER VICE PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So I think of the thing on my parents' refrigerator, a little magnet says "Don't explain. Your friends don't need it, and your enemies won't believe you anyway.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Ever since Sarah Palin announced she is stepping down as Governor of Alaska, the questions have been flying fast and furious. Why is she quitting? Why now, and what will she do next?
Our Drew Griffin was one of the reporters who tracked her down during a fishing trip this week. Listen to what she told him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: It was all a bit surreal, Alaska's feisty governor in a white t-shirt and overall waders in what may end up being her last photo op in office.
PALIN: Everything changed on August 29th in politics in Alaska. That's the day that I was tapped to run for vice president of the United States.
Everything changed August 29th in Alaska, the day that I was tapped to run for V.P. That was obvious.
Since I was tapped to run for V.P., when that opposition research just, those researchers bombarded Alaska and started digging for dirt and have not let up. They're not going to find any dirt. We keep proving that.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Is this your unconventional way of announcing you're going to run for president in 2012?
PALIN: As I said, I do not need a title. Nobody does to effect positive change.
GRIFFIN: Are you out of politics, political office?
PALIN: I can't see me being totally out of public service because that is within me. It is the way that I'm wired is to have the desire to help.
GRIFFIN: Governor, I'm asking you, are you ever going to run for president? Are you ruling it out?
PALIN: All options are going to keep on continuing to be on the table.
I don't know what the future holds. Can't predict what the next fish run's going to look like, much less what's going to happen in a couple of years.
Don't know what the future holds. I'm not going to shut any door that, who knows what door is open. Can't predict what the next fish run is going to look like, so I certainly can't predict what's going to happen in a couple of years.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Sarah Palin's got some very good reasons to keep her options open right now -- 72 percent of Republicans in a recent poll said that they would consider voting for her for president in 2012.
So is quitting the new winning? Joining me to answer that, Republican strategist and CNN contributor Mary Matalin with us tonight, the "Daily Beast" editor-in-chief, Tina Brown with me as well, and NPR contributor John Ridley also here. Welcome everybody.
Mary, let me start with you, because you're a little bit out of lock step with some of your Republican friends about this decision and sort of how she handled had. Karl Rove called, said he was rather perplexed by it, Ed Rollins calling it a disaster. But you disagree.
MARY MATALIN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, it was unconventional, to be sure, in the veracity and the -- velocity rather, with which the opinion class -- and I'm excluding Karl, they took it as unconventional, and they were asked to give an opinion more quickly than it needed to be digested.
What I find more interesting is it the resistance to which everybody in the chattering classes refuses to accept her at face value. She couldn't do her job anymore. Her family was under assault. She was receiving the political equivalent of a stoning. And she could not function in her job.
So the reason I thought it was smart was that she can continue to be a strong voice, build political capital out there in the next two years, and get her equilibrium reset, the word of the week, and do what she does well, which is communicate a conservative message.
BROWN: Tina, you've compared Palin to Princess Diana. Explain what you mean.
TINA BROWN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "THE DAILY BEAST": Well, what I mean is that that speech that an she made when she resigned from the governorship just reminded me of a speech that Diana made in 93 when she suddenly got up at a charity benefit and said she was bowing out of public life because she needed more time and space, and then burst into tears.
There's a certain feeling I have, anyway, when I listen to Palin that was a kind of suppressed hysteria, almost, about the way she conducts herself right now, as if she does feel that actually her life is somewhat unraveling.
I'm sympathetic to that. I think her life has been hell for the last ninth months. But I would much preferred it, actually, if she had said, look, my life has become so complex, I need this time with my family.
In fact, of all the politicians who want to say they want to spend more time with my family, I would just welcome that. I think a lot of women would, because it's really been tough.
But she didn't say that. She did all this wacky stuff about it's better for Alaska, and I'm going to have a higher calling. And it's almost as if she couldn't say I want to spend time on getting myself straight.
BROWN: Which left a lot of people going, huh?
TINA BROWN: Which did.
But I also do think that she's kind of canny, too, because I think she understands that her own celebrity right now is sort of bigger than politics. It's a new kind of politics out there, which really is a kind of hyper-politics, which is I don't need office to be a major political figure.
BROWN: And that's a fascinating point. Do you agree with that, that celebrity may have overtaken like actually doing the job?
JOHN RIDLEY, NPR CONTRIBUTOR: I absolutely believe that. You remember when Senator Obama was running for president, and the ad came out, oh, he's just a celebrity. Well, it turns out that celebrity is a big thing.
And I don't think that's new in politics. There is a celebrity culture that people are attracted to what they like and that reflection of their values and their beliefs.
I do think, again, Sarah Palin made the right decision for Sarah Palin. I agree with Tina. I think there probably would have been more cache in actually telling a truth or some version of "I'm doing this truly for my family."
But again, for the people who like Sarah Palin and the people who like any politician, the wackiness or craziness or the failings, those don't matter. It's, do you connect with these people? And when you don't have to respond to the electorate directly, then you don't have to worry about explaining yourself. Just do what you're going to do.
BROWN: But Mary, what does she do next? Now, if this was such a brilliant move, how does she capitalize on it.
MATALIN: It's brilliant in the sense of, if have you two bad options, you take the least bad option.
I want to speak to what Tina said. This is still an unfortunate situation that women are judged differently in politics. So it would be great if she could say, and she did say a version of, no family has been treated like this. I need to get with my family.
But if she had said it the way Tina said it, which was quite eloquent, she would have been wiped out. She would trying to do some, say it in some conventional way.
And everyone is discarding the fact that her saying she did this for Alaska, there's something false about that. She put in place a system to finish what she started there, and she literally, for the past six months, could not get work done, and it was costing lots of money.
And a small state like that, I don't know why anybody rejects it as an authentic answer. But it's sad that you couldn't say it the way Tina said it, because I think that was a huge big part of it.
BROWN: Got to end it there. Many thanks to Tina Brown, to Mary Matalin, a discussion, and to John, really, of course, a discussion I fear we will be having many, many more times in the future. Thanks, guys.
That is it for us. We'll be back Monday, 8:00 eastern. Goodnight, everybody. Have a great weekend.
