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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Encore: Interview with Michael Jackson's Doctor
Aired July 11, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Tonight, a prime-time exclusive. Michael Jackson's doctor breaks his silence, answering the questions everyone wants answered.
Is Dr. Arnie Klein the father of the pop star's children? And what does he have to say about drugs, his former employee Debbie Rowe, and the singer's ever-changing face.
And then the bombshells that dropped today, shocking details about Michael's body at the time of his death.
Dr. Arnie klein on the friendship of almost 25 years, and the loss that has left him devastated next on "LARRY KING LIVE."
Good evening. The saga of the death of Michael Jackson continues. And we welcome a very special guest tonight. Dr. Arnie Klein, they call the dermatologist to the stars, easily the best-known dermatologist in southern California, maybe elsewhere, too.
He's Michael Jackson's long-term dermatologist, friend, and he's professor of medicine and dermatology at UCLA. Doctor, how did you first meet Michael?
DR. ARNIE KLEIN, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DERMATOLOGIST: I met Michael because somebody had brought him into my office. They walked into the room with Michael, and I took one look at him and I said, have you lupus erythematosus. This was a long word.
KLEIN: Lupus, yes, I mean, because he had a butterfly rash, and he also had severe crusting you could see it on the anterior portion of his skull.
I always am very visual. I'm a person that would look at the lips of Mona Lisa and not see her smile. I would see the lips.
KING: Was he there because of that condition?
KLEIN: He was there only because a very close friend of his had told him to come see me about problems he had with his skin, because he had severe acne.
KING: Oh, he did?
KLEIN: Yes, he did, that many people made fun of. He used to remember trying to clean it off, and he'd gone to these doctors, and it really hurt him very much. And he was extremely sensitive to pain.
So we walked into my office. He had several things wrong with his skin. So I said, you have thick crusting of your scalp and you have some hair loss. He said, well, how do you know this? I said because it's the natural course of lupus.
So I then did a biopsy. I diagnosed lupus, and then our relationship went from there.
KING: Grew from there.
Fast forward. You saw him the Monday before he died?
KLEIN: Absolutely, yes, sir.
KING: What was the purpose of the visit?
KLEIN: He came to me because basically, I was sort of rebuilding his face, because had he severe acne scarring. He had scarring from having a lot of cosmetic surgery.
And my expertise is like it is with every one of my patients. My patients are my treasures, and I was rebuilding his face so he looked much more normal.
Contrary to what people said, he could not take off his nose. His nose was attached. But it looked too small. I was just trying to get him ready to do the concert, because the way he looked, his face, he wanted to be absolutely as perfect as it could be.
KING: Did he consult you when he was doing his plastic surgery?
KLEIN: No. I mean, I came on to the scene long after he had begun plastic surgery. In fact, what I wanted to do is, you know, stop it, because I felt that, you know, we were losing body parts in the situation.
KING: Do you know why -- he was such a good-looking young man, why he even started with plastic surgery?
KLEIN: I don't know, because I can't definitively say, but I know that people made fun of, or family members, made fun of the size of his nose. He was very sensitive to that. And so then he started doing cosmetic surgery.
And you know, it's like, remember Totie Fields very well.
KING: We knew her well.
KLEIN: She had a facelift. And she lost her leg. And the thing is, plastic surgery, unfortunately, if you want it done, there's someone who will do it.
KING: Correct. And how do you find the right one? I'll get to that in a while.
How would you describe Michael's mental, fiscal condition on that Monday?
KLEIN: He was dancing in the office, so it's hard to say. So he was in very good physical condition. He was dancing for my patients. He was very mentally aware when we saw him. And he was in a very good mood, because very happy.
KING: Looked good?
KLEIN: It was a very, very happy mood.
KING: So, therefore, you had to be shocked when he died.
KLEIN: I sat -- I remember when I found out. I sat at my desk for about five hours. I couldn't move because I was very close to him. It's not just because he's Michael Jackson, probably the most talented actor, or, excuse me, performer of our age.
I mean, when I lose anyone that I know, I go -- having lost my brother and my father when I was in medical school, I don't do well with death.
KING: A doctor should feel that way, right? Any loss is a loss to him or her.
KLEIN: Anyone -- I've taken care of many of your friends, and I have to tell you one thing, I give my life to my work. I have nothing else.
KING: Was Michael in any kind of pain when you saw him?
KLEIN: None whatsoever.
KING: There are reports, doctor, that his body was riddled, I want to get this right, with needle marks when he died. Did you see any evidence of needle marks?
KLEIN: I didn't examine his entire body.
KING: Had you seen any in prior exams?
KLEIN: No, I never saw needle marks on his body. I mean, I never saw them that I could tell you. But I didn't see a riddling of anything. People sound like he looked like he was made of, you know, there were holes in him. There weren't anything like that.
KING: Reports he was emaciated.
KLEIN: He wasn't emaciated. I mean, I know dancers because I have worked with dancers many times, and dancers are very concerned by their weight.
And so I knew he always wanted to be thin, and I talked to him about eating enough and making sure he didn't over exercise, because some dancers in order to remain thin will over dance in order to keep their weight down.
KING: Would you call him a good patient?
KLEIN: I thought he was a great patient.
KING: You --
KLEIN: I don't have any bad patients.
KING: OK. Well, some patients are not as cooperative as others --
KING: -- don't listen to their doctors.
What about pain-killing medications? Did you prescribe any?
KLEIN: I've used some sedatives when he had surgical procedures that were immense, because, don't forget, he had a lot of -- he had the burn when he was burnt on the Pepsi commercial, and his severe hair loss when he contracted lupus also. So when you have to fix all these areas, you have to sedate him a little bit.
But if you took all the pills I gave him in the last year at once, it wouldn't do anything to you.
KING: What was the strongest medication you gave him?
KLEIN: I occasionally gave him Demerol to sedate him. And that was about the strongest medicine I ever used.
KING: You've worked with addicts, have you not?
KLEIN: I wrote a book on heroin addiction. And I mean, I think what's happening with drugs now is a disaster. I mean, we look at the actor from the Batman, I mean, looked what happened to him. You have him, you have Michael.
And the thing to remember this, you have all these drugs now that are being prescribed, the pills like Oxycontin, available at high school campuses, I think we have to do something about the readily availability of these drugs.
KING: Did Michael -- we're going to get to that in a while. Did Michael have an addiction you were aware of?
KLEIN: Michael at one time had an addiction. And he went to England and withdrew that addiction in a secure setting where he went off drugs altogether.
And what I told Michael when I met him in this present situation when I was seeing him that I had to keep reducing the dosage of what he was on, because he came to me with a huge tolerance level.
When you take drugs repeatedly, unless you have something like your kidneys don't work, you may require some larger doses than normal. The other thing that you have to remember, when you're using certain drugs, you have what are called active intermediates. And what these are, it takes a long time for the body to digest them. There are certain drugs like, they've been talking about diprivan --
KING: Let me get a break and come back to this.
KING: I want to talk about diprivan.
Did Dr. Klein father any children of Michael Jackson? That's later. He's not exactly denying or admitting it. That's later.
Next, diprivan. Don't go away.
KING: We're back with Dr. Arnie Klein.
Small world --- Dr. Klein went to the same high school as my son Andy, North Miami High, where Steve Carlton pitched. And he's in the hall of fame, and you're in the dermatological hall of fame.
KING: OK, now let me -- I never get personal, but I had cataract surgery. They knock you out for a little while, you wake up suddenly it's gone and you feel fine. They gave me diprivan.
KLEIN: It's a wonderful drug when used correctly.
KING: It is used by anesthesiologists.
KLEIN: Right, because it's a very short-acting drug. It's metabolized very quickly.
KING: You go to sleep.
KLEIN: You go to sleep, and it's gotten rid from the body very quickly.
KING: What would it be doing in someone's house?
KLEIN: I have no idea. And that's what doesn't make sense to me. And it's like anything. It's the danger of all of these substances are available that people can get, because the very rich and the very poor, well, the rich and the famous can buy anything they want to buy.
KING: Yes, but how would you buy diprivan?
KLEIN: You can get it from an and anesthesiologist.
KING: But he'd have to come to your house. Would you do it in your house?
KLEIN: No, certainly not, unless you had an anesthesiologist administering it to you.
There's certain things that you have to not do. And the one thing you have to know is what you're doing with medication. And medicine is not something casual.
I developed certain things in my life. Not a lot, but the sites that use Botox and certain injectable fillers. And that's my life. And I mean, the big thing that I see, you see so many people giving Botox parties and things like this. And this makes no sense. It's medicine.
KING: I won't talk about that. Did Michael tell you he used diprivan?
KLEIN: I knew at one point that he was using diprivan when he was on tour in Germany. And so he was using it with an anesthesiologist to go to sleep at night.
And I told him he was absolutely insane. I said you have to understand that this drug you can't repeatedly take because what happens with narcotics no matter what you do, you build a tolerance to them.
KING: How could a reasonable anesthesiologist give that to someone other than prior to surgery?
KLEIN: Because, I have to tell you, there are certain people in this world who are not reasonable. You know, integrity in medicine --
KING: Wouldn't you lose a license if you were giving it for other than --
KLEIN: Anesthesiology? People have used everything for everything. But there are so many -- I mean, don't get me into the topic of integrity of medicine now, because I mean, that's what's happening in the FDA and all these recommendations with drugs.
KING: Are you surprised that diprivan was found in his home, supposedly?
KLEIN: I'm very shocked by it. But I have to tell you that it's not something that would be unheard of, because I told him that this drug was very dangerous to use on a regular basis.
KING: What did he say when you told him?
KLEIN: He listened to me.
KLEIN: But you can't be absolutely sure that you're forcing anyone. I spent half-a-year living with heroin addicts and writing a book about my experiences when I was in medical school, when I went to England after the death of my father and brother. And what I learned from experience is that you couldn't really ever be assured that you're getting honest information from someone who's an addict.
KING: Because they lie?
KLEIN: They lie because they want to procure medication.
KING: Did you ever see any IV type equipment in his house?
KING: Did you ever see diprivan in his home? Did you ever see it anywhere?
KLEIN: No. I never did. And I also told him specifically the dangers of the diprivan, the dangers of getting it used by someone who is not an anesthesiologist, or someone --
KING: Did he have an insomnia problem?
KLEIN: Not that I knew of, except that once we were on tour with him, we were in Hawaii. He couldn't get to sleep, so me and my whole office went to sleep in the room with him.
So I never knew he had a problem with sleep until this whole tour came up, or basically this problem with sleep at this time. I do know that he did, certainly, local anesthesia, but this is not something we discussed repeatedly, except I just got shocked. He assured me had he stopped.
KING: And he never asked you to administer it, did he?
KING: And you wouldn't, I guess?
KLEIN: That's not what I do. I'm a doctor. I'm a dermatologist. I'm not going to --
KING: There are at least five doctors reportedly now under investigation. Have you been contacted by any authorities, police or anyone?
KLEIN: The only thing I've done is I turned my records a long time ago over to the medical examiner. I've not been contacted by the medical examiner.
KING: Nothing with regard to this?
KLEIN: No, sir.
KING: Do you know anything about these doctors, supposedly? KLEIN: I know there are supposed doctors. I know there's various doctors who went on tour with him. I know there were a few doctors. I specifically don't remember their names. But I think they're going to review the records and go over specifically what happens.
But you have to go back historically. What happened to Keenan West's mom? What happened to his mother? She died during surgery. How many people really have this problem when they die during surgery for whatever the reason is, whether or not they have liposuction? And then they sit around with a dead person --
KING: Are there a lot of doctors practicing who shouldn't?
KLEIN: I don't want --
KING: Would you guess?
KLEIN: I would say there's a large number of people. I don't think it's huge, but I'd say a significant number of doctors who you really have to wonder what they're doing, because a lot of people have come into my field, which is basically aesthetics, because they think it's the only place they belong for untold reasons.
KING: I want to ask you in a minute about Michael and his looks when we come back.
KING: We're back with the famed dermatologist Dr. Arnie Klein in a nighttime, prime-time exclusive here on "LARRY KING LIVE."
What is Vitiligo?
KLEIN: It's a loss of pigment cells. For every 36 normal cells in your body, you have one pigment cell pumping pigment into them. Unfortunately, it's an autoimmune disease, and lupus is an autoimmune disease, and they go together because you make antibodies against your pigment cells.
KING: Did Michael have it?
KLEIN: Absolutely. We biopsied it --
KING: What causes it?
KLEIN: It's caused by your immune system, and your immune system destroying your pigment cells.
KING: Do black people have it more than white people?
KLEIN: No, but it's just more visible on black people because they have the dark skin.
The other thing is, it certainly occurs with a family history, and I believe one of Michael's relatives did, in fact, have Vitiligo. KING: How bad was his?
KLEIN: His was bad because he began to get a totally speckled look on his body.
KING: All over his body?
KLEIN: All over his body, on his face, significantly on his hands, which are very difficult to treat.
KING: So, let's clear up something. He was not someone desirous of being white?
KLEIN: No. Michael was black. He was very proud of his black heritage. He changed the world for black people.
KING: How do you treat Vitiligo?
KLEIN: I mean, there are certain treatments. You have one choice where you can use certain drugs, ultraviolet light treatments to make try to make the white spots turn dark. Or his became so severe, that the easier way is to use certain creams that will make the dark spots turn light so you can even out the pigment.
KING: So the decision was he would go light?
KLEIN: That's ultimately what the decision had to be because there was too much Vitiligo to deal with.
KING: Otherwise, he would have looked ridiculous?
KLEIN: He would have to wear heavy, heavy makeup on stage, which would be ridiculous. He couldn't really go out in public without looking terribly peculiar.
KING: More with Dr. Arnie Klein right after this.
KING: We're back with Dr. Arnie Klein. How did you treat the Vitiligo?
KLEIN: Well, we basic use creams that would even out the same color, and we destroy the remaining pigment cells.
KING: And did his color change a lot over the years?
KLEIN: No, because once we got it more uniform, it remained stable. But you still had to treat it, because once in awhile -- and he had to be extraordinarily careful with sun exposure, because there are a lot of things, and that's why he had the umbrellas all the time, was he had ultra-sensitive skin --
KING: So when you have Vitiligo, you have it all your life?
KLEIN: Usually, almost uniformly. You just don't have a little bit of it.
It's most disconcerting, not in white people, but in black people, because you begin to look like a leopard.
KING: Did he have blotches?
KLEIN: He had blotches, and we evened out almost all of them. He was very, very devoted to treating it. I mean, he wanted to look well. He wanted to look well for one group of people, his fans. He wanted to embrace and love his fans more than any performer I've ever known.
KING: Did he have hair?
KLEIN: He had lost a great deal of it. First of all --
KING: That was the Pepsi fire, right?
KLEIN: Yes. But then what happened was he used a great deal of what are called tissue expanders in his scalp, which are balloons that blow up the scalp. And then what they do is they try to cut out the scar.
But because he had lupus, what happened is every time they would do it, the bald spot would keep enlarging. So I mean, he went through a lot of painful procedures with these tissue expanders until I put a stop to it. I said, no more tissue expanders, because he had to wear a hat all the time, and it was really painful for him.
KING: So what would his -- without the hat, what would he look like?
KLEIN: He would have a big raised ball on the top of his head because of this device would expand the tissue which you'd cut out. but you get too much stretch back in the scar. Do you understand?
KING: Did you see him one time without his hat?
KLEIN: Of course, I did. But he would have a stretch in the back of the scar, meaning the scar would get worse after they removed it. And I had to put a stop to it. So I told Michael, we have to stop this.
And that's when I fired this plastic surgeon altogether. I said, I can't deal with this anymore, so we're going to deal with me as your doctor, and you can find another doctor if you want to work with him.
KING: What you can tell me about his changing face?
KLEIN: Well, I didn't know him a lot through the whole changing face scheduled, because I'm telling you that when I met him, had he done a decent bit of surgery by then. I know --
KING: Was it done poorly?
KLEIN: Well, it was not done poorly. But I think that there's a time -- the magic is not knowing when to begin. The secret is knowing when to end it.
And I think that he believed that his face was a work of art, which is fine with me. But I think at one point I wanted to stop the doctor from continuing it, because it wasn't Michael, I think, that wanted all of these things. It was a surgeon who kept doing it. So I got rid of the surgeon.
KING: So you got him to do it?
KLEIN: No, he did some of it himself. But he didn't know -- the surgeon did not know when to stop doing it. The judgment call there was --
KING: Did you ever say to Michael, we're going too far?
KLEIN: I stopped him from going to the surgeon, because I said this isn't working anymore. You have to stop it.
And what I spent the last part of the year doing is rebuilding a lot of things that I thought were done poorly, and to look at him, because I didn't think he had -- OK, to him, his face was a work of art.
You want to talk about Andy Warhol's work of art, and there are women in Paris and elsewhere, and men who do works of art. Some of them implant things under their skins.
KING: But there are plastic surgeon addicts, right? People who keep getting them?
KLEIN: Yes. There are also people who are what is called dysmorphic disorder, that by dysmorphic disorder, you don't like the way you look, which represents 18 percent of the patients I've seen.
KING: You can be beautiful but look in the mirror and not think you're beautiful?
KING: Do doctors take advantage of some of these people?
KLEIN: I don't take advantage of anyone, because I think --
KING: But do some doctors?
KLEIN: I think some doctors do because I think there's so much distortion going around.
You have to understand, just go around and look at the lips that you see around this city. When you go out for dinner and you see these women who create these lips. When I invented lip augmentation in 1984, I had no idea what I was doing. In a sense, I had no idea it would be the number one use of soft tissue agents.
And when I see these people walking around with lips that look more like something that belongs below the waist -- KING: They look ridiculous.
KLEIN: It's ridiculous. But here's the things --
KLEIN: You have to restore a face. You don't want to renovate. You don't want to make people look like their --
KING: Why did he wear the mask?
KLEIN: He wore the mask because it sort of became like the white glove. He would --
KING: It was a gimmick.
KLEIN: A gimmick. He had no reason other than wearing the mask than --
KING: He also had his children wear a mask.
KLEIN: No, he didn't have them. That goes to the Bashir interview. We have to talk a little bit about that.
KING: That goes to what?
KLEIN: The Martin Bashir did an interview on him, remember. I think that interview when he had the kids walking down the street with masks on, like nylon masks on the face.
The only type of masks I ever -- and they used to come to my house. They used to come, and they loved my dogs. I used to go over to their house. I've never seen the children wear those strange masks he had tem walking down the street ever.
KING: I want to take a break. And when we come back, I want to talk about the nose.
KING: And I want to talk about some of the things you're angry about, and what changed.
KING: And what was his relationship, Dr. Klein, with other members of the family? Was there a relationship? Coming up, along with that paternity issue, and how he's handling all the beleaguering he's getting through all of this. Don't go away.
DON LEMON, CNN ANCHOR: Hello. I'm Don Lemon at the CNN world headquarters in Atlanta. More "LARRY KIND LIVE" in just a moment, but first I want to give you some of the headlines. Police in Beulah, Florida, say they are closer to finding who murdered a Florida couple in a brutal home invasion. The couple is leaving behind 16 children, many of them adopted, some with special needs.
A van captured on surveillance video at the home has been found. Two people are being questioned right now, and police say they are making some good progress on this. We're going to update you on the new developments at the top of the hour.
Police are still looking for a third person in this case sought for questioning. And again, at the top of the hour, more details on this story.
Meantime, some emotional moments for President Barack Obama as he visited Africa for the first time since taking office. Crowds of people clamored just to get a glimpse at America's first African- American president, who wrapped up his visit tonight.
In a speech to the parliament of Ghana, President Obama praised the Sub-Saharan nation as a beacon of democracy. The president and the family also toured the Cape Coast castle, which the British used as a slave dungeon. He compared it to a recent visit to a German concentration camp.
It's a no go for the space shuttle Endeavour. It's not going to happen. Today's launch was scrubbed after a stormy Cape Canaveral night. You can see bolt after bolt of lightning hitting right near the launch pad. Technicians are checking for damage, but so far they haven't found any problems.
This is the third time Endeavour's liftoff has been delayed. NASA will try again tomorrow. Good luck.
I'm Don Lemon. "LARRY KING LIVE" continues rights now. I'll see new about 30 minutes.
KING: We're back with the famed dermatologist. The subject is Michael Jackson, the changes to his nose. Why did he do that? And is it true that he wanted to look like Peter Pan?
KLEIN: I don't think he wanted to look like Peter Pan. I didn't see him implanting wings on the back of his back or doing anything like that.
KING: All right, what about the nose?
KLEIN: The nose was a very special thing, because his father and his brothers supposedly, what I've read, made fun of his nose all the time. So he was very sensitive to the nose.
KING: What was wrong with his nose?
KLEIN: I originally didn't think there was much wrong with his nose. I thought he had a nice-looking nose. But in the beginning, it was never able to come off his body. But it got to the point where it was far too thin. It didn't look natural to me.
KING: Now, you helped him rebuild it?
KLEIN: I rebuilt it.
KLEIN: Using fillers. I used hyaluronic acids, because -- and they worked very well. It's an arduous procedure because you don't want to put too much in, and you have to do it exactly so you can flow the material so it's perfectly smooth.
So we rebuilt him. And I'm telling you that he was beginning to look like the nose was normal again. And that's all I wanted, and regain the breathing passages of his nose, because there was total collapse of the cartilage.
KING: In the last photos we've seen, his nose has been built up, right? He's looking better?
KING: Was he still working at that?
KLEIN: No, because I think we got to the point where he was very happy with the way he looked, and filled in the cheeks a little bit, and did a lot of little things.
But I mean, what I do in an individual patient is what I do. And what I do is just restoration work, because I don't think people should look like, again, like anything has been altered.
KING: Well, you're not a plastic surgeon.
KLEIN: No, sir.
KING: So are you extending yourself when you're doing a nose like that?
KLEIN: No, I invented all this. I invented injectible aesthetics. For better or for worse, it's what I've been doing since 1979. So I'm not extending myself whatsoever.
But if you ask the plastic surgeons, they invented everything including the wheel.
KING: Are you on the war about injectibles?
KLEIN: The problem is they've approved a lot of the injectables --
KING: The FDA? KLEIN: The FDA has, which are synthetics. Now they've gotten approved without knowing what happens once they're injected under the skin.
And when you inject something synthetic under your skin, whether it be injecting it with Plexiglas, which you get off the market, or injectable bone or injectable suture material, your body will react against it, and you'll get a foreign body reaction. And I get lumps.
KING: I thought the FDA is tough on drugs?
KLEIN: No. The FDA is run more or less by the drug companies, because if you look at toxins now, like the various toxins we use that relax muscles, if you read the black box FDA warning, the warning in Canada is to the patients. They're giving it to them, the warning in Germany, also in England.
But the warnings here are only to the doctors, who don't know what they're doing to begin with, because what doctor is injecting a toxin? So I think what we have to adequately do is teach doctors how to do it.
The other thing is, with these toxins, a lot of the scientific research was done by doctors or even licensed in America are from foreign countries. How can you trust this data? And some of the data has been altered.
So I'm in a war yes, and I'm working with a congressman and with -- a member of the House of Representatives, as well as the FBI and Justice Department to change this from happening, because I think the most important thing is patient safety.
KING: Is it ignorance, or do the doctors know they're doing wrong?
KLEIN: The doctors are ignorant, because you can't believe everything you read. And that's what's happening in medical literature. Medical literature has turned into reading a mystery novel on all sorts of things. I mean, pain medication --
KING: You have a lot of clout, don't you?
KLEIN: I don't have much clout, but I know people who have clout.
KING: Hopefully, keep us posted on the war.
KLEIN: I will. I'm running the war.
KING: Was Michael happy with the way he looked?
KLEIN: Absolutely. I mean, Michael, they painted him as this very sad creature like, you know, Charlie Chaplin and something.
KING: He loved Chaplin. KLEIN: Well, we once went to Disneyland. It was Disneyland Paris, and at night he brought Michael Chaplin. What he did is he loved the way he walked because he just walked like Charlie Chaplin.
So he took a cane and he starts imitating the way Michael Chaplin walks. Every time Michael would turn around, Michael Jackson would hide the cane. So he was very funny that way.
I spent Christmas Eve with him, with Carrie Fisher, and his kids only the wanted to meet Princess Leia. That's all they wanted. So I dragged Princess Leia over, and he played with her and the kids on the floor, because he was a person who was both the father, and he loved him here dearly.
KING: We're going to talk about Debbie Rowe in a minute, but I want to ask, is it true what we've heard about how bright he was?
KLEIN: Michael was probably one of the most talented people, because there are producers who he gave ideas to who told me only if they had listened to him. But he wasn't educated in a way that we are --
KING: But he was intelligent?
KLEIN: Oh, beyond. Fred Astaire told me he was the greatest dancer of our time.
KING: Astaire said that?
KLEIN: Yes. And I mean if you hear that from Astaire, who else are you going to hear it from?
KING: More about Michael's life, death, after this.
KING: Now, the Debbie Rowe part of the story. She was your nurse, right?
KING: They met, I guess, in your office?
KING: Was that a real love affair?
KLEIN: I don't know what love is in that sense of the imagination. I think that she loves him very much. She admired him very much.
But if you think they're running off in a horse-drawn carriage, I mean --- we have to put what is a normal relationship. We go back to Marie Bonaparte who once said to Danny Cay (ph), and he went to say what do you have to tell me that's different?
And she didn't even know who Danny Cay (ph) was. She was the first woman of Royal heritage to undergo analysis. She says to Danny Cay, the normal manager you have to be found and be found cured.
Which means who of us is normal. What is normal? So I'm telling you, was that a love affair, you want to know. I think she really cared about his welfare. I think she --
KING: It was not a sexual relationship?
KLEIN: I think they did have sex.
KING: You do?
KLEIN: Yes. I really do. And I can't guarantee that, but I think they did have sex in their relationship.
KING: You think Michael ever had sex with her to father children?
KLEIN: I don't know that answer, because I would think -- you know, it's possible that he did. I can't guarantee that.
You can only guarantee things you see. I don't want to make any suppositions about anything in this interview, because I want this to be as truthful as possible.
KING: Now, what about all the rumors about you and the fathering of those children?
KLEIN: Here's the most important thing. Michael loved those children as a father. Those children loved him as a father. As far as I'm concerned, that's the most important grouping there is.
KING: That's not answering the question.
KLEIN: No, because I'm not going to answer it the way you want me to answer, because --
KING: Well, you can say "No."
KLEIN: I can say no then. I'll say no, if that's what you want to hear.
KING: No, I want to hear what you know.
KLEIN: What I will tell you is that -- you see, because what's most important about this whole thing to end this thing is that the most important thing is who the father is who the father is, who the children want their father to be.
And I will tell you this, I will say no, because the most important person for these children is how Michael loved them, and how he loved his children, and how they loved him, because they would never pass him without saying, I love you daddy. He would say, I love you. I've never seen such emotional --
KING: Earlier today, you said you couldn't answer that one way or the other.
KLEIN: I still can't answer it absolutely one way or the other.
KING: That means you donated sperm?
KLEIN: I once donated sperm. I don't know -- but you have to know --
KING: You donated to him?
KLEIN: No, absolutely not.
KING: Oh, you donated sperm.
KLEIN: Once I donated sperm to a sperm bank. But I don't think I should go over my legal affairs, because I think, to the best of my none, I'm not the father.
I want to tell you that this discussion, however, is between Michael's children and this person. It's not to be discussed who the father is over national television.
KING: You believe it's nobody's business.
KLEIN: It's no one's business.
KING: Except he's become the public's business. Isn't this a fact of life?
KLEIN: Let me tell you something, there's something called private lives. Noel Coward wrote about that. So can't we leave this alone? Can't we leave these children alone? These are brilliant, talented children. And forget this, and understand, this man loved these children. These children loved him.
KING: You don't feel you have to take a DNA test to prove anything?
KLEIN: If they want a DNA test to get at my DNA, I don't care at this point. What I want --
KING: Your concern is the kids.
KLEIN: My concern is the kids, because I've never met children like this. They're the brightest children I've ever met, the best behaved children I've ever met. They come over to my house, they behave wonderfully. I know how deeply he loved them and how deeply they loved him.
KING: That's obvious.
KLEIN: I don't want to disturb this relationship in any way, shape or form.
I'll tell you this -- no matter what, I will protect these children, because --
KING: How are you personally, Arnie Klein --
KING: -- dealing with all of this surrounding you? Are Paparazzi following you?
KLEIN: I ignore it all. I ignore it all. Because you know what --
KING: Stories that you're the father. I mean, come on, you can't put it away.
KLEIN: I know. But you have to understand, I've been through a few things in my life. I've been through Debbie Rowe marrying Michael. I've been through the pregnancy before. I've been through the (inaudible) Botox. I mean, I've been through enough nonsense in my life. You understand? This is just another episode.
Now, this is a little bigger because they're following me for a change. But I think it's all sensationalism. But it's happening to the world.
We should more worry about what's happening at the FDA and drugs existing all over the playgrounds of high schools than what's happening to this and me.
KING: You wanted to tell me something about Michael and Ryan White, the young boy dying of aids.
KLEIN: That's very important, yes. Michael wanted to bring Ryan White to Neverland. And his plastic surgeon, a brilliant surgeon, said you can't bring him in the Jacuzzi because you may catch AIDS.
KING: You're kidding?
KLEIN: No, he said that. Honestly, honest to god. So Michael called me, and I had given Michael $1 million for AIDS, and check, and he said, will I catch AIDS if I go in the Jacuzzi with Ryan White. I said, no way. And he was very good friends with Ryan White until he died. And that's what people don't know.
KING: Did he go in the Jacuzzi with him?
KLEIN: Absolutely, because, you know what? He really cared.
I have a brother who's learning disabled. He always asks me every time he sees me, how is Stephen doing? So I want to tell you, this is a person who really cared about other people. He's unlike anyone I ever met.
KING: Did you go to the memorial service? KLEIN: I couldn't. I watched it on television, and it was still too emotional for me, because I understand, you know, who he was. I thought it was a very beautiful service. And I know you were there, but, you know, services like that -- my father was a rabbi, and I do not do well at memorial services.
KING: I don't either.
What is Michael Jackson's legacy? You can tell us at CNN.com/LarryKing, read our blog. Exclusive with Miko Brando's thoughts about that as told to our Todd Sperry. CNN.com/Larryking, check it out. Back in 60 seconds with Dr. Arnie Klein.
KING: A gut-wrenching moment at the memorial yesterday came at end when Michael's 11-year-old daughter Paris talked through her tears. You've seen it many times. We want to get Arnie's reaction. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PARIS JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON'S DAUGHTER: Ever since I was born, daddy has been the best father you could ever imagine. And I just wanted to say I love him so much.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: What do you feel when you look at that?
KLEIN: I can't. It's difficult to look at that, because here's a man who changed the world. He enabled black people to do things they'd never done before. We have a black caucus, we have a black president. He enabled so many things to do. And he gave so many gifts to the world. He was the finest entertainer we ever had.
But it's not unlike what they did to poor Sarah Bernhardt. She died painless, yet they had a big funeral for her.
Now everybody wants all the gossip. The real gossip is we've lost the greatest entertainer of our lives. We've lost one of the greatest people, who are more generous of themselves and their heart than anyone I've ever known. And he's produced three incredible children. And this is the thing --
KING: About the children, and this is hypothetical. If you were the parent, this is hypothetical.
KING: Would you go and talk to them? Would you do something about it? Would you let it ride?
KLEIN: If I was the parent, I would spend every moment of the day with the children. I'd spend 24 hours a day.
KING: You'd become their father?
KING: We'll be back right after this.
KING: We're back with Dr. Arnie Klein. How did the story, you think, surface about you and fatherhood and all? Where did that come from?
KLEIN: I don't have any idea. Whether it came from Debbie Rowe, I have no idea where it came from.
KING: Could it have come from Debbie Rowe?
KLEIN: Absolutely, because I got on the phone to her as soon as Michael passed away. And my greatest concern was what was going to happen to the children.
And I told her that I didn't want to see in three years the children doing the next version of the Jackson 3 on television dancing away, because these children are bright. They've gone to film school.
KING: So you think she said something about it?
KLEIN: I don't know that. But all I told her was this, that I wanted her to get active and be the mother if she is the mother of these children.
KING: Do you think she should get custody.
KLEIN: I don't know if she should get custody, but I'm very worried that the custody may go into a situation that's incorrect.
I think the most important thing is there's this woman Grace was their nanny, who is incredible. She should remain their nanny and help raise the children.
I worry about the Jackson family only because I worry slightly about the father and what Michael told me about the father.
KING: In what way?
KLEIN: That he was very difficult to deal with Michael. They announced his new record label at the memorial, as you remember. And they seem far more interested in making money than dealing with --
KING: What do you think of the rest of the family?
KLEIN: I think Janet is wonderful, who I happen to know. I know Randy. He seems nice to me. But I think they're going to go on and put a performance on again because what they want to do is they want to perform.
KING: They're performers. KLEIN: Yes, they're performers.
But you heard some speeches yesterday from some very controversial speakers. I think the most wonderful speech was a person I thought would come the least was Al Sharpton when he talked about Michael's and his story, because when Michael was having fights with Tommy Mottola, that's not how he spoke. But he spoke really eloquently yesterday.
So I just want to assure that Debbie Rowe or someone take good care of these gifts from the gods.
KING: Is Katherine the stronghold of the family?
KLEIN: I think she is. But she's -- how would old she now?
KING: She's 79.
KLEIN: Do you think it's typical for a 79-year-old to raise adolescent children?
KING: Yes, so that has, the courts have to --
KLEIN: That would be my question.
And also, Debbie Rowe has gained her rights back to the children. Now, you may not think she's the best person in the world. Having worked with her for 25 years, as a nurse, she can be a very loving person. So if she's combined with Grace, it could be a wonderful combination.
But you know what? I can't make these decisions, nor do I want to.
KING: Have you gone to see the family?
KLEIN: I have not gone to see the family because I didn't want to go see the family, because I had difficulty with Jesse Jackson, I don't know him very well, nor Al Sharpton, who I didn't know very well.
And once the family invites me to visit them, I most certainly will visit them so I get to see the children. And I would love to. But once -- I have to get invited to visit.
KING: What do you think should happen to Michael's body?
KLEIN: I believe in the burial. I mean, you have to understand --
KLEIN: Wherever he wants to be buried, or where everyone wants to put the body, because, I mean, I believe firmly that he should be buried. I'm an Orthodox Jew. Once you've died, the body is just a body. It belongs in the ground. KING: Orthodox should bury the next day.
KLEIN: I know. So I believe he should should have been buried already.
But I think that they want to keep him stored in Neverland until they bury it. I think you have to stop, put an end to this carnival atmosphere. I think it's time to put the body in the ground and get on with the rest of the world, and get on with the great things that he's done and remember how he changed the world in such a positive manner.
KING: Arnie, will you come back?
KING: I'd like to pour into your mind on lots of things, including when we do shows about treatment with drugs. We have some people coming on, panel discussions.
KLEIN: I would love to. I'm not a drug expert. I'm only an expert on injectables. But those are drugs.
KING: Thank you, Arnie.
KLEIN: I really appreciate being here. Thank you.
KING: I appreciate it.
KING: We want to thank the millions of you who watch CNN here in the United States and around the world yesterday during our all-day coverage of the Jackson memorial.
We appreciate the online viewers, too. And thanks to everyone out there for making CNN number one.
When we come back, the little boy from "Britain's Got Talent" who performed at Jackson's memorial yesterday. He is here next.
KING: An extraordinary young man joins us now, Shaheen Jafargholi.
He was a finalist on "Britain's Got Talent." He was on this program at that time. He performed at yesterday's Michael Jackson memorial. Michael had invited Shaheen to London for his upcoming tour.
Shaheen was a big hit Tuesday. Let's take a look at him singing Michael's song "Who's Loving You."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: How did they get you to do that? How did they call you? What happened?
SHAHEEN JAFARGHOLI, "BRITAIN'S GOT TALENT" CONTESTANT: Well, you know, Michael was meant to be doing this for our tour dates. Because I was on "Britain's Got Talent," he saw me on YouTube, and he wanted me to appear with him on his --
KING: In London.
JAFARGHOLI: Yes, in London. And so, you know, unfortunately he passed away. And so they were setting up a memorial, very short notice, you know.
And they were discussing it with Kenny Ortega, the guy who was going to direct the show in London. And, you know, they thought it would be a great idea for me to perform there, because he used to watch me on YouTube every day. He used to really like me.
KING: Did you like the idea?
JAFARGHOLI: I just, when I first went, I couldn't believe it. I was, to be honest, honored to be invited. When I found out I was in the '02 date, that was amazing, as well, but --
KING: You were going to sing in that concert?
JAFARGHOLI: I was going to be singing a duet of "Feel the World" with him. And it was just --
KING: So they flew you over and you rehearsed. Then what did it feel like to perform at the memorial?
JAFARGHOLI: I just felt really honored and blessed that I'd been given the opportunity and also this chance to say good-bye to my idol and my hero in a way that no other person on earth ever could. I mean, I had a great opportunity. I'm just really glad it happened.
KING: How old are you, Shaheen?
JAFARGHOLI: I'm 12.
KING: What's the background of the name, Jafargholi?
JAFARGHOLI: I'm half Iranian, and then, you know, the rest of me, as well.
KING: Born in London?
JAFARGHOLI: No, born in Wales, which is a small country in London.
KING: You live there now?
JAFARGHOLI: Yes, I live in Wales. KING: What's your goal?
JAFARGHOLI: I think it's just, you know, to keep doing what I'm doing, to be able to sing and you know, just record, maybe just be out there and be able to show people how much I love to do this.
KING: You have obviously extraordinary talent. Do you dance?
JAFARGHOLI: Well, I'm not saying I can't dance, but you know, my main strong point is singing. And that's just basically what I love to do all the time. I just love getting the chance to get up on the stage and sing to lots of people.
KING: When you were singing, Berry Gordy was singing right in front of me, the famed founder of Motown.
JAFARGHOLI: Yes, yes, yes, Motown.
KING: So I leaned over to him, and I said, do you know this kid? And he said, I don't know who this is, but if I had a record company, I'd sign him tomorrow.
KING: Do you have a recording contract?
JAFARGHOLI: Not at the moment. I mean, we're waiting to see what's going to happen with me in the future. I mean, hopefully, you know, I'll be able to carry on singing, and basically just get better and progress.
KING: Are you good at school?
JAFARGHOLI: I'm like really at a high level at school. I love going to school. I just love being normal and being with my friends and, you know, just fitting in. And I love going from one extreme to the other.
KING: Do you vocalize every day?
JAFARGHOLI: I sing all the time. I sing to myself. Every now and again I just forget, sometimes. I mean --
KING: You just start singing. I'm going to have you sing in a minute.
But when you're 12, couldn't your voice change?
JAFARGHOLI: Well, everybody, every person goes through that change. But when I was on the show, "Britain's Got Talent," the vocal coach said I can hear in your voice that it is going to obviously break, which everyone thinks. But I think it's going to break, but get stronger.
KING: More tenor or less tenor?
JAFARGHOLI: More tenor.
KING: Sing something for us. Anything. You walk down the street and sing. Sing.
JAFARGHOLI: I'll sing "Who's Loving You."
KING: OK. We have about 45 seconds. Go.
JAFARGHOLI: When I had you, I treated you bad. Oh, my dear and I wonder, who's loving you?
KING: Was that natural to you as a kid? When did you start singing? When you were five, six years old?
JAFARGHOLI: In front of an audience, yes. But ever since I could talk, I mean, I was always singing words to all of my favorite songs, seemed to just stick in my head.
I mean, my mom always used to play lots of Motown and Michael Jackson around me, so I grew up listening to all these amazing songs.
KING: Wow. You have an extraordinary future in front of you. You're quite a young man. Proud to know you.
JAFARGHOLI: Thank you very much.
KING: Thank you, Shaheen.
JAFARGHOLI: Thank you.
KING: Shaheen Jafargholi.
It is safe to say, it's hard to predict, you're going to be hearing a lot from him.
DON LEMON, CNN HOST: Tonight, a big break in a case that left a couple slain and 16 children orphaned. CNN is live at the center of investigation.
No swimming while black, that's what parents say their children overheard at a private swim club. Both sides speak to CNN, and we talk in depth.
Cemetery plot -- where are our babies' bodies? That's what some parents are asking about their loved ones over a grave robbing scandal.
And the Michael Jackson saga -- his body, his family, his death. A prominent family friend fills us in right now.
Hello, everyone. I'm Don Lemon.