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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
La Toya Says Michael Jackson Was Murdered
Aired July 13, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, La Toya Jackson drops a bomb -- she says Michael was murdered. The journalist who interviewed La Toya face-to-face will tell us all about it -- how Michael's sister thinks the king of pop really died, why someone wanted him dead.
How does La Toya know?
Plus, Anita Hill has been through a memorable hearing for Supreme Court nominee -- what does she think of Sonia Sotomayor?
Next on LARRY KING LIVE.
We welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Caroline Graham, the Los Angeles correspondent and West Coast editor for the "London Mail on Sunday." She did a lengthy interview with Michael Jackson's sister, La Toya.
How did you get it?
CAROLINE GRAHAM, L.A. CORRESPONDENT, "LONDON MAIL ON SUNDAY": Well, Larry, we have a relationship with La Toya. We've -- she spent a lot of time in the UK over the last few years and she knows my newspaper and she trusts us. And I think that La Toya wanted to get the story out there, but she wanted to do it with a paper that she trusted and that she knew would report it accurately.
KING: Where was it conducted?
GRAHAM: We actually met in the Beverly Hills Hotel near her home. She lives very close to where Michael was living at the time that he died. And we met for four, four-and-a-half hours last Thursday.
KING: How was she paid?
Was she paid?
GRAHAM: Larry, I wouldn't discuss any negotiations that I had with La Toya. It's -- it's confidential and I wouldn't discuss it. And I don't think it's really relevant.
I think what happened in this case is that La Toya came to us. She wanted to get the story out there. And the story was a bombshell.
KING: But, you know, in the United States, if you hear someone is paid for something, there's always a suspicion around it, you know...
GRAHAM: I don't think La Toya had any suspicious...
KING: ...she did it quid pro quo.
GRAHAM: No. She had no suspicious motives. I mean, I didn't know what to expect when I got into that hotel room.
And I tell you what, when I walked out four hours later, I was impressed. I -- I believed her. She's a very compelling witness. She -- she speaks very adroitly. She's intelligent, she's smart and she loves her brother.
KING: All right, Caroline, the bombshell headline from the interview, "La Toya Says Michael Was Murdered."
That's very serious.
GRAHAM: It stopped me in my tracks. When she said this, it was about mid-way through the interview. And she said, "I truly feel my brother was murdered."
And I said...
KING: Are you talking about murder or are you talking about negligent manslaughter?
GRAHAM: Larry, that was the question I said to her.
I said, are you sure murder is the word you want to use?
Do you realize what you're saying?
And she said, oh, yes, I realize what I'm saying. And that...
KING: And how was the murder committed and by whom?
GRAHAM: The second question I asked her, who do you think is responsible?
She didn't want to -- shed is dealing very closely with the police officers who are investigating this. She doesn't want to name names at this stage.
However, there are certain people that she thinks have to step forward and step up to the plate and give some answers. And one of those is Dr. Murray, Conrad Murray, Michael's personal physician.
KING: She wasn't accusing him?
GRAHAM: She was saying that she thinks his behavior has been extremely suspicious. He disappeared from the hospital. She was at the hospital with the screaming children, asking to speak to Michael's doctor.
When she went up to him and said, what the hell happened to my brother, he mumbled something that she said was a whole bunch of nothing.
And then the next time she looks around, after she's been to see her brother's dead body, the doctor's cleared off.
KING: Did she say that he left the room or that Michael was in his room?
GRAHAM: That was very interesting. Up to this point, we thought that Michael was in his own bedroom. No, no, no. He was in Dr. Murray's bedroom.
KING: How does La Toya know this?
GRAHAM: She went to Michael's house on the evening of the day he died. She spoke to people in the house that were there. One of Michael's -- or, basically, Michael's closest personal assistants, a guy who could (ph) brother Michael, saw Michael in Dr. Murray's bedroom. He was there when the emergency services got there.
And, basically, Michael had walked from his bedroom into Dr. Murray's room. And this was the room where -- where he passed.
KING: In response to La Toya's comments that Michael was found in Dr. Conrad Murray's room, a spokesperson for the doctor tells CNN's "A.C. 360": "That's just not true. Dr. Murray administered CPR on Michael Jackson in Michael Jackson's room. I'm not sure where La Toya is getting that. She wasn't even there."
However, Dr. Murray's attorney refused to comment on La Toya's statements about seeing an intravenous drip stand in the room and oxygen canisters lining the walls.
Well, what do you make of this?
GRAHAM: Why doesn't Dr. Murray talk to La Toya?
She wants to talk to him. The family would love to speak to him.
She told me that the room was beside Michael's big bedroom. He had a big bedroom. Across the hallway was a small room. Maybe Dr. Murray wasn't sleeping there. It was described to her as Murray's bedroom.
Paris -- Michael's daughter Paris said that that was Dr. Murray's room and that when daddy was in there getting his "oxygen," the children were not allowed in there.
KING: Well, without saying it, is she accusing Dr. Murray...
GRAHAM: I think she's certainly...
KING: ...of murder?
GRAHAM: I think she certainly has a lot of questions that she would love to ask Dr. Murray. And he's just not available to speak.
KING: But she says there are others, right?
GRAHAM: She says there are others. In her mind, what she -- the way she's put it to me was that it's a conspiracy of very shadowy characters around him.
KING: Who were giving him drugs to kill him?
That's her theory?
GRAHAM: She says they were giving him drugs to control him. Michael was isolated from his family. The family tried to intervene. They knew that he was in trouble. They tried to stage an intervention.
And every time they tried to get close to that house, they were prevented.
Joe Jackson went to the front door on many occasions, she told me. He went to the front gates. They wouldn't let him in.
When -- when La Toya called the house, she couldn't speak to her brother. This is all very suspicious.
KING: Dr. Murray has not specifically -- we have another statement -- has not specifically responded to La Toya's description of what she says was their encounter in the hospital the day Michael died.
But over the weekend, Dr. Murray's attorney issued a statement, declaring: "Dr. Conrad Murray continues to be fully cooperative with the Los Angeles Police Department and the medical examiner's office."
Well, shouldn't La Toya be at least impressed by that?
GRAHAM: Why won't he answer whether he gave Michael Jackson Diprivan -- a drug that should...
KING: Well, answer to who?
GRAHAM: To the family and to the general public. I think people -- there are millions of fans out there that want to know what happened to Michael Jackson. We've seen the footage taken at their household two days before he died. And he looked like a seemingly healthy man.
How can he go from that to -- to laying on a cold slab in the mortuary within two days?
KING: Why would doctors -- I mean, frankly -- you're a great journalist. You've been doing this a while.
KING: Why would doctors want to kill a patient?
GRAHAM: I don't... KING: I mean what -- what...
KING: The farthest memory -- take it all -- any -- to extreme.
GRAHAM: I don't think -- I think you have to go between intentional and unintentional. I think, you know, maybe...
KING: Well, unintentional isn't murder, though, is it?
GRAHAM: No. Well, in this -- in California, isn't it second degree murder?
KING: I don't know that.
GRAHAM: That's what I was told. And maybe, you know...
KING: Well, we'll have a lawyer on later.
GRAHAM: It will be difficult to prove first degree murder. But I think if the intent was there -- whether the intent was there or not, he -- if he administered a drug that led directly to Michael Jackson's death, what would you call it?
KING: Caroline Graham is our guest, the L.A. correspondent and West Coast editor for the "London Mail on Sunday."
Want to see your comments on our show, go to CNN.com/larryking, click on blogs, type in your remarks. They just might make it on the air.
La Toya vows to protect Michael's kids -- and that's next.
KING: In this dramatic printed interview, Caroline Graham describes La Toya telling you about accompanying the children in to see the body.
GRAHAM: La Toya...
KING: What was that like?
GRAHAM: It was an amazing moment of the interview. She -- she got very choked up. She said that the children were outside with the grandmother, Katherine. They were hysterical. They were crying. They were screaming. And Paris said, I want to -- Auntie La Toya, I want to go and see daddy.
And so La Toya went to one of the nurses -- one of the experienced nurses in the E.R. room and said, look, is this a good idea or is it -- is it bad? And the lady said, no. I've been doing this a long time. I think you should allow the children to see Michael. It will give them closure.
So La Toya said she took the children into this small anteroom off the main emergency room. Michael was still in there. She said the body was still warm. He had a towel over his face. And La Toya removed the towel and she said the children, once they saw their father, immediately became calm. And they rushed over to him and they held his hand. They kissed him. They told him how much they loved him.
And -- and this is when she started -- she was overwhelmed with emotion at this point. She said it was a very touching scene. But she said from that moment on, the children were calm.
KING: Does that surprise you?
GRAHAM: Yes. I mean I've never had this experience, thank goodness. But I mean they're such young children. I -- I wouldn't expected that reaction. But she said that Paris, on the Monday before the memorial service, they had an open viewing of the casket.
KING: Oh, they did?
GRAHAM: And the little girl -- the boys didn't want to go, but Paris said, yes, I want to go and see daddy again.
And the most poignant thing she said was that Paris bought this little hearts necklace with a heart in two parts. And that she said that put it around Michael's -- her daddy's wrists and that she put it around her neck and said I'm going to wear this now for the rest of my life.
KING: Did she give you any indication of where the burial is going to be?
GRAHAM: No. I asked her. She -- she says that it definitely will not be Neverland. There's been all sorts of speculation that he'll go back to Neverland. She said he hated Neverland, that after the trial -- the second child abuse case -- he felt that his home had been violated. He didn't feel safe there. And that she's in charge of the body and she and Katherine will decide where Michael goes and he's not going to go to Neverland. She said it would be cruel. That's -- that's not (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Might they bury him in another country?
GRAHAM: I don't know. She -- she said that wherever he goes, it will be -- it will give him the peace and privacy in death that he never had in life.
KING: How are the children coping now?
GRAHAM: She said the children are remarkable. I mean kids are -- kids are strong. They're with their cousins. They're strong. Paris writes letters every day to her father. The little boy, Prince Michael, the oldest one, apparently hasn't cried since the day in the hospital. He's become the little man of the family. And the little Blanket, apparently, he's -- he's doing OK.
KING: Did La Toya talk about her father?
GRAHAM: She talked a little bit about him. I mean I think this is a family...
KING: Why is he kind of like the outside person in this?
GRAHAM: I think this family has been through many ups and downs. But what people don't realize is that when a crisis happens like this, they stick together. And they are, ironically in -- in this situation, they are united.
Whatever you think of the Jackson family, I think they're all together on this. What they want is to find out who and what killed Michael. And they want justice. And if somebody is responsible, they want to see that person held accountable.
KING: Did they see any autopsy results?
GRAHAM: They -- I don't know if you know, Larry, there were two autopsies.
GRAHAM: There's the official coroner's report and there's the autopsy ordered by the family. Now...
KING: And there's still a toxicology report to come.
GRAHAM: And there's still the toxicology.
Now, La Toya said to me that the -- the autopsy ordered by the family she has seen. She's not prepared to go into detail.
And I said when you saw that, did anything in that change your opinion that it was murder?
And she said, no. I still feel he was murdered. She said there were four fresh needle marks in his neck.
KING: In his neck?
GRAHAM: Neck -- and some fresh marks on his arm.
KING: That would be a guessing as to what that is, right?
GRAHAM: She didn't elaborate. She's talking -- she is cooperating extremely closely with investigators. And she doesn't want to do anything -- she -- she has full trust, as do the family, in the LAPD.
KING: Did the family know of Michael's addiction problems? GRAHAM: The family knew he had a problem. I don't know if they knew the extent of it in the final weeks. What she said is that her belief was that in the run-up to the London concerts, he was on a cleanse. He was trying to cleanse his body of any kind of, you know, old substances or whatever.
And her belief is that somebody, toward the end, was giving him drugs to either control him or for whatever reason and that, perhaps, that the input of a large amount of drugs after him cleansing his system perhaps set him over the edge.
KING: Have any other family members been quoted about her statements to your knowledge?
GRAHAM: No. I mean, I know Joe Jackson...
KING: Have they called...
GRAHAM: Joe Jackson has gone on the record to say that he believes in foul play. And La Toya is speaking from the -- for the family. She's talking to her mother all the time. They -- they're united.
KING: She is speaking for the family, you believe?
GRAHAM: All the time.
KING: Back in 60 seconds with more about the death of Michael Jackson -- murder?
Caroline stays with us and Dr. Drew and Jim Moret join us, next.
KING: We're back.
Caroline Graham remains with us.
We're joined by Jim Moret, chief correspondent for "INSIDE EDITION." He's also an attorney. He hosted this show last week, for which we thank him.
And Dr. Drew Pinsky, the host of VH1's "Celebrity Rehab" and the author of "The Mirror Effect: How Celebrity Narcissism Is Seducing America."
What do you make, Jim, of La Toya's charges?
JIM MORET, "INSIDE EDITION" CHIEF CORRESPONDENT: I think that -- I've spoken with a close friend of the family. They have been concerned that people are controlling Michael Jackson through medication.
KING: Were, you mean.
MORET: Were. And I don't know that I'd use the term murder, but they're clearly concerned that there was, as Joe Jackson said, foul play.
KING: Well, foul play implies we're going to come in there and kill someone. That's the way I read foul play.
MORET: I don't think murder was on anyone's mind. I don't know -- I don't believe that this was a premeditation. I don't believe that there was malice. But I believe that there could have been. And I think investigators are looking into whether there was recklessness, whether there was carelessness, whether there was negligence where you would or should know that somebody could die.
KING: Negligent like manslaughter?
MORET: Like homicide. Like Manslaughter, right.
KING: What do you read into all this, Drew?
DR. DREW PINSKY, HOST "CELEBRITY REHAB": You know, I was really kind of inspired to hear La Toya's interview. I thought everything she said was spot on. She was clear. She understood what she was talking about. It fit with everything I understand about this case. And it was -- it was...
KING: Did you read it?
PINSKY: I did read it. I read it in quite a bit of detail. And I -- and I was really -- I was inspired and really shaken to my core in terms of how accurate her sense of what was going on, in fact, seemed to be.
KING: Caroline, why do you think she really did the interview?
Why did she do it?
GRAHAM: I think -- I think she was -- she's spent her whole life reading rubbish about her family. This is about her brother, who has just passed away.
In the interview, she went through a range of emotions. She was tearful. She was -- she was angry at times. She was grief-stricken.
I think she did it because she wants people to know the truth.
MORET: I'll tell you something else.
KING: What do you...
MORET: I think -- I talked to this person who is a friend of the family.
KING: You're not going to name the...
MORET: No, I won't name them, but they're close to the family. And I believe that she is speaking with the family's blessing, because I don't think she's the only person who feels -- listen, she signed the death certificate. It's not like... KING: She signed it?
MORET: It's not like she's out of left field speaking on her own.
PINSKY: My other sense, Larry, is -- with my clinical eye is that she's a woman that has had treatment. She seems very psychologically savvy, insightful and it was a very...
KING: She's had drug treatment?
PINSKY: No, no. I think I -- my read is this is somebody who really understands psychology deeply.
KING: I see.
PINSKY: I mean she a language and understanding that doesn't -- the average person doesn't have.
KING: What do you make of four needle marks in the neck?
PINSKY: I wonder -- you know, sometimes they try to start a central line during a resuscitation. They hit the jugular vein here by doing that.
PINSKY: They may have been trying to do that. If they -- if they actually got one in, they're not allowed to remove it after death, but they may have been trying to get one in.
KING: Do you think, Caroline, La Toya feels any guilt herself...
GRAHAM: I think so...
KING: ...we should have done more -- could have, should have, would have?
GRAHAM: I think so. I asked her that and she said, of course. You know, when -- when something like this happens, of course feel guilt. They tried an intervention. They were trying to get close to him.
But, you know, bearing in mind -- and I think Dr. Drew can talk to this more.
When you're an addict, you isolate. So it wasn't just the people around Michael that were isolating him, he was cutting himself off, as well.
PINSKY: I completely agree. You've got to have the addict's participation in treatment. And they will choose to keep people around them that keep them insulated.
But I think we're going to have a new sense of what people's responsibilities are, particularly of medical caretakers, in these kinds of environments.
KING: If all this, Jim, turns out to be true, what's the posthumous effect on Michael's image?
MORET: I think -- I think the memorial saw a major shift in how people view Michael Jackson. I think he was humanized the day of the memorial. I think we saw him as a brother, as a son, as a daddy -- a father. And I think that many people feel sorry for him now who used to vilify him.
KING: Dr. Drew, he was 50 years old.
KING: So what responsibility does he have in this?
He's not a child.
PINSKY: Absolutely. He's the -- he and (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: He has to be a willing -- no one ran into the house and injected him, I assume.
PINSKY: No. That's -- that is absolutely true. And this is one of the liabilities of being a celebrity, that the very, very rich and powerful have a tendency to seek special care. And when you go for special care, you tend to get substandard care.
And, yes, addicts tend to keep people around them, keep them buttressed up, keep them in their condition.
But somebody has to have an ethical compass that allows them to be enlightened enough to intervene on behalf of that human being, not keep their access to the celebrity intact.
KING: So, Caroline, she's got to be angry at people who supported this?
GRAHAM: She's very angry. She -- she was very angry in the interview. She said people were around him that didn't have his best interests at heart.
To them, he wasn't Michael, a brother, a father, a child, he was Michael the cash cow -- the money making machine.
KING: Do you agree with La Toya that Michael might have been murdered?
That's tonight's Quick Vote question.
You can go to CNN.com/larryking and cast your ballot.
Back after this.
KING: OK. We're back with Caroline Graham, Jim Moret and Dr. Drew Pinsky.
Do you have any explanation for contradictory claims about Michael Jackson's health?
Because in the video of his rehearsal, he looked terrific.
PINSKY: He did look good and it fits with the...
KING: He didn't look like anybody under the influence.
PINSKY: No. In fact, it fits with what La Toya has been saying, which is that he seemed to be -- he may be on some sort of maintenance medication of something. But whatever excessive medication he was on, I believe he was be coming off of. The fact is, some of the things that have been described -- his symptoms of being hot and cold and not sleeping, that is all people -- someone coming off of medication.
Then, if you take what would otherwise be a customary dose, having been no longer tolerant to that medication, it could be sufficient to either kill you or interact with another medication (INAUDIBLE) we'll find out about when the toxicology (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Why was the custody hearing postponed, Jim?
MORET: It was postponed because, I believe, the parties are talking. One of the lawyers said as much.
And, interestingly, enough, one person that may be unifying both Katherine and Debbie Rowe is Joe Jackson and his statements.
Debbie Rowe said she might want to get a restraining order. Katherine wants custody alone. And that might be enough to bring them together.
KING: Did -- did La Toya say anything about Debbie?
GRAHAM: La Toya was quite scathing about Debbie. The one thing she said...
GRAHAM: Scathing. She told me that those children do not know that Debbie Rowe is their biological mother, which I was shocked by. I thought everybody knew that. But those children -- they've met Debbie Rowe on a couple of occasions. But at Debbie's request, they were never introduced as, this is your mom. It was always, this is Debbie.
And the children don't know. And she's never -- La Toya said to me, she never comes around unless she wants money.
KING: We've tried to get a comment from Deborah Rowe. Her attorney's office says: "We have no statement to offer at this time."
What, Dr. Drew, is the long-term emotional effect on the children of this -- if all things are true and learn their father was an addict?
PINSKY: Well, boy, you're asking a compli -- more time than we have to get into here what it means to have a dad who's an addict and a dad who's a superstar and a dad who's dead. I mean these are all very powerful...
KING: All of the above.
PINSKY: ...all very powerful things.
But I do know this -- and Deepak Chopra confirmed this when I met him in this room a couple weeks ago, which is that Michael was extremely careful of who he selected to take care of those kids. And it's very clear they had excellent caretakers and a sustained relationship with a quality adult over time can be sufficient to buffer a child against very severe traumas.
KING: Caroline, the reaction to La Toya's (INAUDIBLE) that Michael is worth more dead than alive?
GRAHAM: That's how she feels. She said that to some people, he was worth more dead than alive, because of...
KING: Album sales?
GRAHAM: Album sales, ticket sales. I mean, the -- AEG, the people that had the last concert produced, they put 100 hours -- I spoke to Randy Phillips, who I think has been on your show. They've got 100 hours of footage.
The one person that was making Michael Jackson not financially viable was Michael Jackson. He spent a fortune.
KING: Now there's no spending.
GRAHAM: Tens of hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, there's no spending, just gaining, gaining.
KING: Are you shocked, Jim, that many people in London who bought concert tickets aren't trading them to get their money back?
MORET: No. They're getting a commemorative ticket. And in that way, AEG is coming out just fine because they set -- they have $40 million in tickets that they don't have to give back.
KING: Will this ever go away, Drew?
PINSKY: I think it will be with us. I mean those of us that are adults and alive today will remember it always. It will go away as a news story. But it's something that will be -- I think it, for a fact, I think it's going to change -- I hope it changes the practice of medicine for the better. I think it will. KING: You think it will affect other doctors who enable?
PINSKY: I think there will be something -- either ethical standards or even maybe some -- some laws that come out of this.
KING: Help me.
What happened to Presley's doctor, who was an enabler?
Did -- he lost his license.
MORET: I believe he did. I believe...
KING: But no criminal charges.
MORET: But you're talking about a different time. You're also talking about a different expectation. I think that if you had run a special two months ago on the abuse of prescription drugs, five people would have watched. Now you can get an entire nation interested because there are millions of people affected. And they're -- and they're focused because of Michael Jackson.
PINSKY: Yes, I completely agree.
KING: What's La Toya, overall, Caroline, make of all of this?
What's her read on it?
GRAHAM: I think she's very suspicious. I feel that she -- she said to me that -- I think she's just -- there's many things. But I think the main thing is she's a grieving sister. And her main thing is justice for Michael.
He's gone. Nothing's going to bring him back. The two focuses of La Toya and that family are justice for Michael and looking after those children.
KING: Did she say how he looked in death?
GRAHAM: She said he looked like he was sleeping.
I said, was he scary?
Did he look frightening?
And she said, no. He just looked like he was sleeping. He looked very peaceful. There was nothing freakish about him. He -- he just looked like he was resting.
KING: So those stories about a body emaciated are wrong?
GRAHAM: No. She said he was always skinny. And, of course, he'd been working out and whatever. He was -- he was always a skinny guy. He wasn't anorexic.
KING: Thank you all very much. We'll have all of you back.
You're here in L.A. So you can always come back, right?
GRAHAM: Thank you.
KING: Caroline Graham, Jim Moret, Dr. Drew Pinsky.
Could drug allegations impact the custody case?
The legal experts are in the wings.
We'll get into it, right after this.
KING: We're back.
And we now welcome to LARRY KING LIVE Mark Geragos, the former defense attorney for Michael Jackson.
In New York, Judge Jeanine Pirro, who presides over the TV court show that bears her name and served as Westchester County D.A. and county judge, as well.
And here in Los Angeles, Judge Joe Brown, who presides over his own TV court show, also that bears his name.
What do you make, Mark, of the La Toya charges?
MARK GERAGOS, MICHAEL JACKSON'S ONETIME ATTORNEY: Well, you know, people keep talking about the -- whether it's manslaughter or anything else. California has a specific -- what's called implied malice second degree murder doctrine, which being used more and more for situations that normally you would not think would be a traditional murder.
KING: And this could be a case where it would be...
GERAGOS: This is clearly a case where I could see, under the right circumstances, that some prosecutor would bring murder charges -- not intentional in the sense that people always want to talk about what they think is murder, but what's called implied malice, second degree murder.
KING: Judge Pirro, what's your read?
JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO, HOST, "JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO": Well, I think that Mark is right. There is an implied malice second degree, which is really a manslaughter charge.
If they can show that there was Diprivan or other drugs in Michael's system -- and I think that they will be able to show that once they do the dissection of the brain, then they've got to show causation, who administered the drugs, who gave him the drugs. I think any prosecutor worth his or salt will seek an involuntary manslaughter charge, because it is time to raise the bar.
It is time for these doctors to recognize that they cannot use their position as a medical doctor to support illegal prescription drug use, that ultimately ends up in death.
KING: Judge Brown, your input?
BROWN: I'm sure somebody, if they had an angle, would prosecute the good doctor.
KING: Or doctors.
BROWN: Or doctors. Basically what they found in the home is the same thing they found, I believe, in 2003 raid that the police did on the home place. Now, I think it's going to be necessary for preservation of his image to try to go after a scapegoat, just like they did when Elvis Presley died in Memphis. The autopsy showed drug overdoses. But I think Jerry Francis, Dr. Francis, who came out without even participating in the autopsy and said, it was a heart attack. I anticipate that kind of --
PIRRO: You know what, with all due respect, it's not about a scapegoat. It's about a doctor who is not licensed by the Drug Enforcement Administration to administer anything more than a powerful cough medicine, and who was using, allegedly, Diprivan, which is only used in operating rooms and in outpatient surgery rooms, and not having the proper resuscitative equipment.
This isn't about a good doctor. It's about doctor who have taken a Hippocratic Oath and who are using it for their own greed.
GERAGOS: Part of the irony of this, at least legally, is people keep talking about the manslaughter. If you look at the mental state in the jury instruction for manslaughter, in a lot of ways, it's more rigorous than the implied malice murder. That's why I keep suspecting that somebody, some clever prosecutor, is going to say, you know, given the latest pronouncements of the California Supreme Court, this is a murder case.
KING: Help me with something, Judge. Is it a crime if you -- if I ask a doctor to give me a drug that I'm not supposed to get, and he gives it to me? Is that a crime?
BROWN: It can be under certain circumstances.
KING: He's giving me Diprivan. I want to go to sleep.
BROWN: What's going on here is he apparently had triplets of various prescriptions, which raises red flags. Back in the '80s, you'd use the DEA or get the locals going out to someone when they found out they had triple prescriptions. They'd go back into this and find out and go after the user and the person that did the prescriptions.
So right now, though, I'd like to point this out. I think everybody is getting a little out of hand right now. All we have is hearsay basing -- basis for some kind of allegation.
KING: We don't know any facts yet. We don't know if Diprivan was in the house.
GERAGOS: We don't know if Diprivan was in the house. We don't know who prescribed it, whether they know who prescribed it. We don't know if there was a prescription on it that was his.
KING: All of these are assumptions. One of the dangers --
GERAGOS: Which is always the danger --
KING: Just to be -- trying to do our best. Call us a cable pundit fest? You invented it. Just to be clear, Dr. Conrad Murray's attorney has said investigators told them that Murray was a witness and not a suspect in the investigation.
Our guests are sticking around. We'll see if they think criminal prosecution is likely as we continue with our cable -- stop it. We'll be right back.
KING: Looking at Michael Jackson's fans in London today. Very, very popular, of course, in the UK. Maybe more popular in the UK than in the United States. We're with Mark Geragos, Judge Janine Pirro and Judge Joe Brown.
Does all this speculation harm things, Mark, for the prosecution, for the defense, for everybody?
GERAGOS: Of course, it does. There's no question that you've got people saying things that there's absolutely no basis to know if they're true or not. They become -- they get into the ether and everybody assumes they're true.
KING: Judge Pirro, frankly, what do we know know? What do we know?
PIRRO: Well, you know, the only thing we do know are things someone like La Toya tells us or Joe Jackson tells us, or that the family tells us, or, you know, some of the leaks in law enforcement. Until we get that toxicology, until that brain is analyzed by a neuropathologist, we're not going to know the cause of death.
Then what Bill Bratton will do is look into the viability of a homicide charge, causation, if it's appropriate, or he'll rule it an accidental overdose, or he'll rule it just a heart attack, which makes no sense if a guy is healthy and 50 years old.
KING: Judge Brown, do you agree with that? All we know is we don't know.
BROWN: We need to develop some patience. We have tabloid journalism taking over everything in this country. Do patience. Everybody's got to know. Inquiring minds are running amok. We need to keep it out --
KING: You like the British system better, where none of this would be covered? If this were Great Britain --
GERAGOS: The Contempt of Court Act would be instituted, and that would be the end of that. The only thing I would ad to what Janine was saying is that one of the things that will first be determined is that the coroner will make a determination. Once the coroner makes the determination, then it will go to the police. The police are already working hand in hand with the Department of Justice, the state Department of Justice.
So either they or the L.A. County DA is already involved, I guarantee you. They'll make a decision jointly.
KING: How far can this go? If an employee of Michael Jackson's got a false prescription and filled it, are they guilty of something?
PIRRO: It depends. If they were doing it to accommodate their employer, that's one thing. I'm concerned about the pharmacies. If indeed -- again, it's rumored that one of the pharmacies is owed 100,000 dollars by Michael Jackson -- you've got all these pharmacies. If they are prescribing drugs to people of different names, but the bills are all going to one person, these pharmacies could lose their licenses. Some of the doctors could lose their licenses.
That's at the very low end. If, indeed, there's criminal negligence or a gross deviation from the standard of care that a doctor should conduct himself by, then we can possibly see more serious charges. I think we are now seeing a culture change, where society will no longer tolerate these celebrity doctors who do anything for money.
KING: That may be gone. If all the allegations, Judge Brown, about the drug abuse are shown to be fact, could that have an impact on child custody?
BROWN: I think it should. In fact, I would be very disappointed with California's system if they don't appoint a guardian to protect the interest of these children.
KING: Where do the children go?
BROWN: Where do they go?
KING: If there's a guardian ad litem, what happens?
BROWN: Well, I think this whole thing that's banded around, again, an acquiring mind type approaches about he willed his children to someone, which you can't do that. They're not property. Considering his own admissions out of his own mouth about being naked in bed with somebody else's children, the drugs found in the home when they raided it in 2003, allegedly, and then what we are getting right here, I think there needs to be an investigation in terms of the psychological status of the children, who was a fit children, the whole nine yards. KING: Mark, you agree?
GERAGOS: Look, my experience with these kids is -- was over a period of time. We defended successfully the Child Protective Services investigation. My experience is that these are tremendously well-adjusted kids, especially the older two who I knew and dealt with.
As long as Katherine is in the mix, and as long as Grace is in the mix, who was the long-term care giver, I don't have any doubt that that's the best place for these kids.
KING: You need a good judge here.
GERAGOS: I think you do have a very good judge here.
KING: Our great panel will be back on other nights. You can count on it. Just ask Mark. What do you have to say about the Jackson case? Your comments are next. Back in 60 seconds.
KING: We're back. The blog has been busier than ever since Michael Jackson died. Here's our own David Theall to tell us what you're saying about the King of Pop and more. David?
DAVID THEALL, LARRY KING LIVE CORRESPONDENT: Larry, we're tracking a couple of different stories on the blog tonight. Of course, everybody is talking about these explosive allegations from La Toya Jackson about the death of her brother. Toward that, we're hearing from people like Camilla, who is responding to these investigations by La Toya Jackson that her brother Michael was murder. She agrees with La Toya. "There so many other things about this whole situation that are so questionable. There's far too much not adding up," says she.
We're also hearing from people like Travis, who says this: "La Toya is obviously in pain. But the responsibility for any medications he was taking lies with Michael Jackson, first and foremost."
This conversation continues on the blog, like it always does, CNN.com/LarryKing. Look for the blog link, jump into the conversation.
Larry, I also want to tell you about a web exclusive on the blog, again, CNN.com/LarryKing, a guest that's about to join you at the desk, Professor Anita Hill. She, of course, rose to prominence during the 1991 confirmation hearing of Justice Clarence Thomas. She is a former Yale classmate of Judge Sonya Sotomayor.
On the blog, in advance of her appearance tonight, she wrote a web commentary in which she talks about her former Yale classmate and she talks about her potential new role on the Supreme Court. CNN.com/LarryKing. Jump in, we look forward to hearing from you.
Back to you, Larry. KING: As David said, our next guest knows something about Senate confirmation hearings for Supreme Court nominees. Anita Hill was a subject of controversy during one of them way back when. She's here right after the break.
KING: The president will throw out the first pitch tomorrow night in St. Louis at the All-Star Game.
We now welcome, coming from Walter, Massachusetts, where she's a professor at Brandeis University, Anita Hill. Accused Clarence Thomas of sexual harassments during his '91 Supreme Court confirmation hearings. He was closely, of course, confirmed for the post. Was a year, by the way, behind Sonya Sotomayor at Yale University Law School. What did you make of the first day of the hearings?
ANITA HILL, BRANDEIS UNIVERSITY: I think it was what we expected. People were sort of lining up, sort of laying out their positions. It was a -- it was pretty predictable. But I don't think that took away at all from the fact that this is a historic day and an historic event that we're witnessing.
KING: Let's take a look at a brief excerpt from the opening statement by the judge before the Judiciary Committee.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SONYA SOTOMAYOR, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: In the past month, many senators have asked me about my judicial philosophy. Simple: fidelity to the law. The task of a judge is not to make law. It is to apply the law.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: You were a year behind her at Yale Law School. Did you know her there?
HILL: You know, I knew who she was. I saw her in the school. It's a fairly small law school. And I knew that she was a woman from the Bronx, and she really was someone who was quite popular at the school, quite active and engaged. Always struck me as very, very vivacious and very, very smart.
KING: As a professor of law, how do you regard her as a judge?
HILL: I have not looked at every one of her opinions. I don't think anybody one person really has. But I've looked at summaries of them and I've looked at some of her work. I think the body of work itself is so impressive.
What I see in her work is really just what she said today, that she is -- she has great respect for precedence. She considers that the rule of law is her guiding principle. And she really strives to make sure that comes through in her opinions.
KING: Do you believe -- Senator Lindsey Graham, GOP senator from South Carolina, said that if he had said anything like her remarks about wise Latinas, his career would have been over. Do you agree with that?
HILL: I'm not sure exactly what he was trying to get at. I think those comments about a wise Latina have been exaggerated and exploited for, quite frankly, political purposes. I think what Judge Sotomayor was trying to indicate was that she comes into her position as a judge as a person who brings a lot of experiences, and her own perspective that derives from those experiences. She is not trying to deny any part of who she is.
The law is not something that is applied by a computer. Judges are human. And all of those judges on the bench bring human aspects into their decision making.
KING: I guess that is all anyone can bring, their own background. You're trying to be objective, but you still are what you are, right?
HILL: You are what you are. You know, I think this is a good conversation for us to be having, and for us to think about what President Obama meant when he used the term empathy, what it means for a judge to have empathy.
I think the human characteristic of empathy is something that individuals develop between the ages of one and two. I suspect that every judge has it. The question is how is it applied, and when is it used, and are you even aware of it? I think she shows that she is aware of it, but, in fact, it doesn't hinder her from applying the rule of law.
KING: Back with more Anita Hill after this. Don't go away.
KING: Here is another reminder about Professor Hill's web exclusive. Go to CNN.com/LarryKing and you read it. You won't find it anywhere else. We thank her for submitting it to us.
By the way, Judge Sotomayor, did people know about her? Was she talked about in legal circles as a possible appointee?
HILL: For some time I think she has been discussed. I think one of the reasons she was discussed is she was appointed by judge -- excuse me, President Bush, the first President Bush, and the second appointment to the court of appeals she was appointed by President Clinton. I think people believe that would give her broad bipartisan support. So she was considered to be one of those individuals always at the top of the list of individuals who might be considered for the Supreme Court.
KING: What -- go ahead, I'm sorry. HILL: I don't think we should underestimate the fact that we have an opportunity to appoint another woman to the Supreme Court. Both Sandra Day O'Connor and Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg have indicated that they are very happy that another woman may be coming on to the court. They think it is important that we have women represented, well represented. I think that is something the country should aspire to.
KING: What, Anita, has been the lasting effect on you and your approach to the law since your involvement with the hearings with Judge Thomas?
HILL: One of the things that has really happened to me since that hearing was my appreciation for the fact that we really need to connect people with the law. For people to really understand and appreciate that the decisions made by the Supreme Court impact their lives, whether or not they ever see themselves as plaintiffs.
Another thing that has been brought out, at least as I read the letters that I've gotten since the hearing, is that we need to do a better job as lawyers and law professors and judges of helping people to understand what their rights are. There were so many people who have written me, who said they didn't know they had a right not to be sexually harassed on the job. I think that is a failing of our legal system.
KING: Does the incident still remain with you?
HILL: It still remains with me. I work to try to make sense of it. I have worked to try to make it a positive. You know, it was not a positive experience by any stretch of the imagination. I'm not sure we can ever get involved in these huge discussions in this context and resolve all of the issues that are presented by them. But I do think that we can learn from events like those hearings that occurred in 1991 and this one as well.
KING: Will the judge be confirmed?
HILL: I believe she will. I think she certainly has enough Democratic votes to be confirmed. I would like for there to be more bipartisan support of this nomination. I think it sends a strong message not only to Sonya Sotomayor as she takes her position on the bench, but I think it sends a message to women throughout the country, people of color through all of America, that this really is the land of opportunity that it promises to be; and if you work hard and achieve in your life, that you can be rewarded by this kind of position.
She is well deserving of it. We will see. I don't think there is going to be that meltdown that someone suggested would have to happen in order for her to be defeated. I think she is going to really shine in the next few days.
KING: Finally and quickly, how are you doing?
HILL: I'm great. I'm great. I work hard at being great, but I'm doing very well. I love teaching. It's a great time.
KING: You're an incredible part of American history. Thank you, Anita, good seeing you.
HILL: Thank you, Larry.
KING: Anita Hill, professor of law at Brandeis University. Hey, we're excited to announce the newest member of our LARRY KING LIVE family. London Kate Alden (ph) was born on Thursday. Her parents our producer B.J. Alden and his wife Christine. London is eight pounds, five ounces; might be a little more than that now.
Mother, father and big brother Emerson are doing well. Emerson, congratulations.
Time now for "AC 360." Anderson?