Return to Transcripts main page
Campbell Brown
Supreme Battle; Custody Fight Over Jackson Kids?
Aired July 14, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
How did this plane land safely with a football-sized hole blown through it?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It was crazy. And then oxygen masks dropped. It was just crazy.
BROWN: A terrifying moment on a Southwest Airlines jet. We will speak to one of the passengers.
Plus, new details and more arrests in Florida -- what really happened to Byrd and Melanie Billings?
DAVID MORGAN, ESCAMBIA COUNTY, FLORIDA, SHERIFF: We have information that indicates that there was an amount of practice that was involved.
BROWN: Were the execution-style killings part of a robbery plot? Or was there another motive? And what will happen to their children? We have the latest.
And culture clash over a Supreme Court nominee. Does Judge Sotomayor's wise Latina comment really make her a racist?
SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: But do you understand, ma'am, that if I had said anything like that, and my reasoning was that I'm trying to inspire somebody, they would have had my head? Do you understand that?
BROWN: Also, the battle over Michael Jackson's kids. Debbie Rowe's lawyer tonight says she won't trade custody for cash, but is the family trying to pay her off to make her go away?
And the amazing video of the day. Watch this. We will tell you the story behind this spectacular crash.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. Those are big questions tonight. But we start as always with the "Mash-Up." It is our look at all of the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all so you don't have to.
We start on Capitol Hill, Judge Sonia Sotomayor, a woman on a mission and very much on message, trying to convince senators that, when she rules from the bench, only one thing counts. It's not gender and it's not race.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JUDGE SONIA SOTOMAYOR, SUPREME COURT NOMINEE: All of my decisions show my respect for the rule of law. What my record shows is that I follow the law. In every case I have decided, I have done what the law requires.
As a judge, I don't make law. The job of a judge is to apply the law. Judges must apply the law and not make the law. It's not the heart that compels conclusions in cases. It's the law. The law requires -- the law requires -- what the law requires.
It's a refrain I keep repeating, because that is my philosophy of judging, applying the law to the facts at hand.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: In other words, she may be a Latina woman, but that will not guide her hand on the high court. It is all about the law.
Of course, no fewer than four senators asked Sotomayor about her now famous statement that a wise Latina woman would make better decisions than a white man, a line of questioning she clearly anticipated. She called the comment a rhetorical flourish that fell flat. Here's her explanation, the CliffsNotes version.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SOTOMAYOR: My speech was intending to inspire the students to understand the richness that their backgrounds could bring to the judicial process.
That their life experiences would enrich the legal system, because different life experiences and backgrounds always do.
I want to state up front, unequivocally and without doubt, I do not believe that any ethnic, racial or gender group has an advantage in sound judging.
If you look at my history on the bench, you will know that I do not believe that any ethnic, gender or race group has an advantage in sound judging.
Every person has an equal opportunity to be a good and wise judge regardless of their background or life experiences.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Still, one senator made it real clear he's not buying it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: But do you understand, ma'am, that if I had said anything like that, and my reasoning was that I'm trying to inspire somebody, they would have had my head? Do you understand that?
If Lindsey Graham said that I will make a better senator than X because of my experience as a Caucasian male, makes me better able to represent the people of South Carolina, and my opponent was a minority, it would make national news, and it should.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Day three of the hearings coming up tomorrow. We will once again bring you all the highlights.
In Pensacola tonight, police say it is case closed in the murder of a couple, parents to 17 children.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officials say they believe they have now caught all of the alleged killers of Byrd and Melanie Billings and say the home invasion in which they died was long planned.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There are now seven suspects in custody, one just 16 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police believe the ringleader was this man, 35-year-old Leonard Patrick Gonzalez Jr., described by friends as a loving husband and father, his passion, teaching karate to young children.
MORGAN: We have found them and they are in custody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As the final arrests were announced, Ashley Markham, the oldest daughter of Byrd and Melanie Billings, tearfully stood by the sheriff's side, but she left without speaking out.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're going to have a whole lot more on the story tonight, including new information on what happens to the children of that murdered couple.
President Obama tonight under increasing pressure to deliver results on the economy. The president traveled to Michigan today, ground zero of the recession, and declared he is on the case.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My administration has a job to do as well. And that job is to get this economy back on its feet. That's my job.
(APPLAUSE)
OBAMA: And it's a job I gladly accept.
I love these folks who helped get us in this mess and then suddenly say, well, this is Obama's economy. That's fine. Give it to me. My job is to solve problems, not to stand on the sidelines and carp and gripe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The recession, of course, taking a toll across the country, layoffs, cutbacks. But here is a new one for you. In Boston, a zoo found its budget on the chopping block, and the zoo fought back.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Governor Patrick slashed the zoo budget from $6.5 million to $2.5 million, using his line-item veto.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Zoo New England, remember, raised eyebrows and the governor's eye or two when it suggested budget cuts might force them to euthanize animals.
CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "LATE NIGHT WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": Their exact words were, we want 50 grand in unmarked bills or the emperor penguin gets it. Everyone, back.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: Everyone, back!
THOMAS MENINO (D), MAYOR OF BOSTON: To euthanize some of them, it would -- it would be -- it would be a sin. It really would. And we have got to do everything we can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Patrick says no animals will be killed on his watch, but he believes state money would be better spent on other programs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The governor pretty much accusing the zoo of political extortion. But Massachusetts state lawmakers, they can smell a trap mile away. Tonight, they say the zoo is going to get its money back.
Also tonight, ABC newsman Bob Woodruff returns to the war zone, back to Iraq for the very first time since he was gravely injured in a roadside bombing three years ago. This time, his visit was short, but sweet.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOB WOODRUFF, ABC NEWS: We're about to take off. We're going to go zero to 120 in 1.5 seconds.
We blasted off the carrier hoping to tour the battlefield in Iraq, but a fast-moving sandstorm grounded us in the northern city of Kirkuk.
It's hard to believe it's been three-and-a-half years since I was back here in this country. And now to be back and see this from the sky as we're flying in, and then suddenly sand hits again, just like it did during that invasion in 2003.
From there, we took off for Afghanistan, where Chairman Mullen told troops at Bagram Air Base that they're getting the resources now to win.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Woodruff spent a year in rehab recovering from injuries that nearly killed him.
Dick Cheney's daughter tonight sounding very much like a candidate herself. Appearing on FOX News, Liz Cheney was asked if she will run for office some day. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LIZ CHENEY, FORMER U.S. DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF STATE: I got a lot of respect for people who run for office. I think it's an honorable profession. I hope at some point that it's something that will work out for my family, for me.
SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS: Oh, so you do hope it would work out?
CHENEY: Yes. But it's -- who knows what will happen down the road. Somebody that you have on this show a lot said you just never even know what the next fish run is going to be.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: OK, that is a race we will be watching for sure.
And now for our nightly trip into Jackson land, a moment from ABC's "Good Morning America" that caught our eye, a rare clip of a planned Jackson family reality show. Here's Michael Jackson's mother, Katherine, talking about her unique marriage to her husband, Joe.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE JACKSON, MOTHER OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I just had a feeling that I just think he was going to be my husband.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You did?
JACKSON: The first time I saw him, I fell in love with him. We're not together all the time. We stayed together for many, many years, but so -- but we see each other all the time. I go to Vegas and he will come here. But, you know, they always say absence makes the heart grow fonder?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: New developments in the Jackson story tonight. We are going to tell you about them, separating fact from fiction, coming up.
And now, as always, the punchline, tonight from a politician for a change, Congressman Barney Frank. Check him out. This was on "The Daily Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON STEWART, HOST, "THE DAILY SHOW WITH JON STEWART": What is the stimulus money doing? Is it doing anything? Is the TARP money doing anything? Why are we calling it TARP? What's...
(LAUGHTER)
STEWART: Congressman, help me.
(LAUGHTER)
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D-MA), FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Well, the stimulus money -- actually, I will tell you, I'm not supposed to call it stimulus.
The message experts in Washington have told us that we're supposed to call it the recovery plan, that that works out better with focus groups. I was puzzled by that...
(LAUGHTER)
FRANK: ... because I have found most people would rather be stimulated than recover.
So, I don't know why...
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Congressman Barney Frank, everybody. Don't forget to tip your waitress. That is the "Mash-Up."
Emergency landing, a close call in the sky. Passengers describe what it was like to fly for 30 minutes with a big hole in their plane.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We were sitting -- seated about two rows back from the wing. And about four rows back, you heard this loud rush, and your ears popped. And then we looked back, and you could tell that part of the -- the inside was trying to pull out.
And it was really -- it was crazy. And then oxygen masks dropped. And of course I put mine on, as I was instructed to, then put on -- on my kids. And so it was just crazy, though, but you're doing -- especially as a parent, you're doing a lot of talking and calming and that kind of thing, and how you have never gone through this before.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We have some pretty dramatic 911 recordings that are just coming into CNN right now from that in-flight scare, that plane that was forced to make an emergency landing that had a hole in the roof of the plane, again, those recordings just coming into CNN. We are going to have those for you coming up in just a moment.
But, first, let's a check of some of the other must-see stories of the day today.
Mike Galanos with our sister network HLN is down in Atlanta with tonight's "Download."
Hey, Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell.
Let's start with health care. And today House Democrats unveiled their version of health care reform, winning praise from President Obama, who was visiting Warren, Michigan.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: Don't be fooled by folks trying to scare you saying we can't change the health care system. We have no choice but to change the health care system, because right now it's broken for too many Americans.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GALANOS: House Democrats would raise taxes on the wealthy to pay for a government-funded insurance option. Republicans object to the tax hikes and the cost, which is expected to be as much as $1 trillion over 10 years.
Well, convicted Ponzi schemer Bernard Madoff on the move today. He's seen here -- you're about to see it -- arriving at a medium- security facility in Butner, North Carolina. It's near Raleigh. That's where he will likely spend the rest of his sentence for running a multibillion-dollar scam that wiped out investors. Madoff's release date, by the way, November 14, the year 2139. He would be 201 years old.
Well, a rare sight on a Long Island New York beach. A 20-foot basking shark that weighs about a ton apparently washed ashore and sadly died here. Wildlife experts think it was sick. Now, basking sharks are not considered dangerous. They eat mostly plankton.
Some incredible video for you. This is out of Germany. Check it out. It's a biplane at an air show on Sunday. The loops, that's supposed to happen, but the pilot flew too low, could not pull up in time. You see how low here. Ends up hitting a parked car near the airfield, a married couple and their daughter in the car, thankfully, no one seriously hurt. The pilot walked away as well. He didn't even go to the hospital.
And here's a planned stunt that did work. Freestyle motocross star Robbie Maddison jumped London's Thames River Monday morning, no- hands backflip. There you see him going off the ramp, went from one end of the bridge to the next. Now, Red Bull staged the jump to promote a motocross event in London next month. Needed the Red Bull. This took place, Campbell, about 3:00 in the morning. He said it was kind of an eerie sight, 25-foot span, to get a look at the river upside down, but, hey, as you saw, he made it there.
BROWN: Yes, pretty impressive. All right.
GALANOS: Yes.
BROWN: All right, Mike, thank you very much.
GALANOS: OK, Campbell.
BROWN: Mike Galanos for us tonight.
You just saw that stunt plane crash. Well, next up, we're going to talk to a passenger who was on board another plane that had to do an emergency landing after it blew a hole in the roof. This was mid- flight. We also just got in the 911 tapes from that incident. We're going to play them for you when you come back.
And men dressed as ninjas, a military-style execution, it's a story everybody has been talked about. Why would seven people conspire to kill the parents of -- of 17 children? We're looking for answers for you. We will have some tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: This just coming in to CNN, dramatic 911 recordings of an in-flight scare. A Southwest Airlines jet was forced to make an emergency landing in West Virginia last night after a football-sized hole opened up in the roof of the cabin. It caused the plane, which was on a flight from Nashville to Baltimore, to lose pressure at about 37,000 feet. Listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He has a hole in the fuselage on the left side of the aircraft. That's why the pressurization problem. No report of any injuries at this time. So, he's inbound.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The plane has landed safely and it's taxiing right now.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROWN: Michael Cunningham was one of the 126 passengers who quickly put on their oxygen masks, as the crew brought the plane down safely. And, tonight, he tells us about a pretty frightening experience.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Michael, you were taking a nap when this all happened. So, take us through those first few moments when you were woken up.
MICHAEL CUNNINGHAM, PASSENGER: The first sound I heard, it was like a pop, and then a very loud roar, like being next to a blast furnace.
And I took the baseball cap off my face and looked around and noticed everybody was looking directly above my seat. And I looked up and I had to do a double-take. There was this episode of "The Twilight Zone" with William Shatner where he looked out the window and saw a gremlin on the wing of a plane.
I had to do the same thing, because I saw the sky outside, the blue sky. And it got very hot in there. All the air-conditioning got blown out. And then some dust and dirt got blown past my face. And then it got kind of difficult to breathe.
BROWN: What did you think might happen to you?
CUNNINGHAM: I honestly had no idea. I didn't know if the hole was going to get bigger, or if I was going to get sucked out that little hole. I -- I had no idea. I kind of went into self- preservation mode and tightened my seat belt a little bit and just waited for the oxygen mask to fall.
BROWN: And describe what was happening with the other passengers. Were people in a panic?
CUNNINGHAM: People were actually pretty calm, considering the circumstances. There were a couple of people that needed some more help from the flight attendants, who did a great job getting us down and calming us down.
But I think everybody paid attention to the -- you know, the safety lecture that everybody gets before the flight. And everybody knew what to do. And there were a couple of people that were a little worried about their masks, but, all in all, everybody was just calm and just wanting to get back on the ground.
BROWN: So, explain what the pilot was doing during this time, what the flight attendants were actually doing.
CUNNINGHAM: Well, I believe -- I have heard that we were at 34,000 feet, which is too high. So, we got our masks on. And the flight attendants got their masks on.
And the pilot immediately started descending down to 10,000 feet, which is a safe altitude. So, the flight attendants were going around, making sure everybody had their stuff together. And they were telling us -- motioning mainly, because we couldn't hear in the back of the plane where I was because of the hole. They were motioning to us this is how you're going to brace yourself for an impact if we have to go in hard, and we might have to use the inflatable slides in the back, and this is what you need to do there. They were informing us how to protect ourselves if things got a little bit more worse.
BROWN: It's amazing to me that everybody stayed so calm during all of this.
So, after you guys were safely on the ground in West Virginia, you had made this emergency landing, the pilot came back to inspect this hole. Tell us about that.
CUNNINGHAM: He came -- as soon as the cockpit door opened, he -- you know, he walked out past the first couple rows. We all just started applauding him for getting us down and, you know, without a scratch on us. Nobody was hurt.
And he walked right back to row 20 and looked up and saw the sky and went, oh, that -- there it is.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Yes, I will say.
So, I mean, just how -- finally, how has this changed your perspective, Michael, on life, having gone through something like that? Does it change your perspective?
CUNNINGHAM: I was wondering this last night. I was trying to get to sleep when I finally got home about 2:00 in the morning.
I -- I was -- I was honestly scared for several seconds that something really bad could happen when it -- when the hole first appeared. And I was trying to sleep last night, and all I could hear was the sound of the hole, the roaring of the wind and the engines and everything else.
So, I'm a little uneasy about flying. And I was planning to take a trip to Vegas in a couple of weeks, too -- so, that's kind of put a damper on that -- on Southwest. So, I'm still trying to figure out and take it all in, I guess, because it feels like it's been just a few minutes since we landed. But it's been a day. But it's still -- it's a lot to take in.
BROWN: I will say. And you're probably going to feel that way for quite some time.
Michael Cunningham, who has had quite an experience.
Michael thanks for coming on. I really appreciate it.
CUNNINGHAM: Thank you, Campbell.
(END VIDEOTAPE) BROWN: When we come back; cash for kids. Michael Jackson's ex- wife denies she wants money in exchange for custody. But is there a deal being made behind closed doors? We're separating fact from rumor tonight. Plus, culture clash over the Supreme Court nominee. Do white guys get treated unfairly when it comes to making racial comments?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: But do you understand, ma'am, that if I had said anything like that, and my reasoning was that I'm trying to inspire somebody, they would have had my head? Do you understand that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Day two of confirmation hearings for Sonia Sotomayor. And, so far, the proceedings have been pretty much dominated by questions about what she meant when she said a wise Latina might make a better decision than a white man.
Listen to Senator Lindsey Graham and Judge Sotomayor today.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRAHAM: This wise Latino comment has been talked about a lot. But I can just tell you one thing: If I had said anything remotely like that, my career would have been over.
SOTOMAYOR: I want to state up front, unequivocally and without doubt, I do not believe that any ethnic, racial or gender group has an advantage in sound judging.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Things have been pointed, but, by and large, pretty civilized on Capitol Hill.
Not so on talk radio. Here's Rush Limbaugh.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "THE RUSH LIMBAUGH SHOW")
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: She's racist and she's bigoted.
Look it, if words still mean things, then she is. Wise Latina would be far better to make judgments because of her rich background as a wise Latina than your average white guy, average white male.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
BROWN: So, why are those average white males so worried about Sonia Sotomayor?
Joining me now, CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin, Maria Echaveste, former deputy chief of staff in the Clinton White House with us, also CNN political contributor James Carville, and CNN contributor Bill Bennett also joining us.
Welcome to everybody.
Jeff, let me start with you and just bottom-line this. Out of all of the hours of questioning today, isn't the bottom line that senators want to know whether or not a white man who comes before Judge Sotomayor is going to get a fair hearing?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: Well, this is a judge who's been on the bench for 17 years.
In almost all cases, she has ruled with other judges. There is really no doubt that she is very much a mainstream judge. She said a thing she regrets. There's no doubt about it. She apologized. She -- it was wrong. And I think the controversy is largely going to go away. But she had to fold her cards. She was wrong on what she said.
BROWN: James, did she do a good job of explaining what she meant by her comments?
JAMES CARVILLE, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I think -- look, I think she's just running out the clock here. I think she's going to be confirmed. I think the strategy they went for today is just don't do anything controversial, apologize for this, and just sit there and let these senators lecture.
And I think that's pretty much what happened. And I think it probably was a good strategy. She didn't engage anybody. And then those senators gave their speeches, and they seemed to be obsessed with race.
My thought is, when I was watching the parts I watched, that I think Jeff Sessions is running for president. I predict he will announce for Republican nomination.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: Well, a separate debate, perhaps.
CARVILLE: Right.
BROWN: Bill, let me throw this at you.
There was a lot of argument back and forth today about the value of empathy and of diversity. And I just want you to listen to what some recent Republican nominees had to say about that in their hearing. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CLARENCE THOMAS, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: And I believe, Senator, that I can make a contribution, that I can bring something different to the court, that I can walk in the shoes of the people who are affected by what the court does. JOHN ROBERTS, SUPREME COURT CHIEF JUSTICE NOMINEE: As you look at the Supreme Court, the people on there come from widely different backgrounds and experiences. And I think that's a -- a healthy thing.
SAMUEL ALITO, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE NOMINEE: When I get a case about discrimination, I have to think about people in my own family who -- who suffered discrimination because of their ethnic background or because of religion or because of gender. And I do take that into account.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, Bill, listening to that, do you think there is, you know, some of what we're seeing today is politics, that there may be a different standard when it comes to Sotomayor or to a female Latina?
WILLIAM BENNETT, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: No, no. Politics in the Supreme Court nomination, how could that possibly be? Of course, there's politics in it. The question is, the question of judgment. Not whether you're an empathetic human being, whether you can sympathize with other people, whether you can put yourself in the place and point of view of another human being, which is what Roberts was saying, which was what Thomas was saying, which is what Alito was saying, and which was what Sotomayor was saying.
What she did was back off the statement, which Jeff Toobin got exactly right. She folded her cards. She denied the plain meaning of the words she had said earlier which is not about empathy, which she said pretty plainly was that a wise Latina woman would make better judgments than a white male. And she backed off of that completely.
She said I didn't mean it. It was a bad way to say it. I take it back. I will apply the law. And that will be certainly plenty to get her through.
What this shows I think in an interesting way, and I don't mean this as a political way at all.
BROWN: All right. We lost Bill's shot there, so he didn't get to finish his point.
Maria, it's your lucky day.
MARIA ECHAVESTE, FORMER CLINTON WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY CHIEF OF STAFF: Well, I think that she -- she acknowledged that she made a wrong choice of words. And that she -- and what Lindsey Graham did was really say to the -- not just to the nominee but to the entire country that words matter and maybe people ought to be a little more careful. And I think he was a little wrong to say that his career would have been over. But the important thing is that her record shows completely that she does not put her thumb on the scales and that she will, in fact, apply the law.
I do hope that we can get away from race. As your clip showed, many a nominee has said their experience is going to add value to the court. And that's what we should want. BROWN: But let me ask you all this. I mean, how do we get away from race when I was frankly struck by the image today of just all of these white men grilling this Latina woman, the first Latina woman, about whether or not she was a racist? You don't think that that image in some way is significant.
Jeff, what do you think?
TOOBIN: Well, you know, I think she was getting the same kind of tough questioning that any nominee gets. But I think the substantive issue you're talking about is an important one. The Supreme Court right now is deeply divided over the question of, can a university use race in admissions? Can an employer use race in deciding whom to hire?
Those are really hard questions and frankly, progressives, liberals, whatever you want to call them are on the defensive here. So I think Sonia Sotomayor and Barack Obama better come up with some good arguments because they don't appear to be winning the public debate on this subject.
BROWN: Let me go back to Bill Bennett because we lost him a second ago.
BENNETT: Yes, Campbell.
BROWN: Yes, go ahead, Bill.
BENNETT: Yes, Campbell, would you have been happier if these white males had been soft on Sonia Sotomayor saying look, we're going to be gentle, we're going to be nice, we realize you're not a white male? That's ridiculous. It's got to be just one standard.
The point I was trying to make and I think it's an important point, is whether people make their decisions based on race or gender is one question. The interesting thing that came clear today is that no one would publicly defend doing such a thing.
She wouldn't defend doing such a thing and she insisted that the comments she made that were interpreted that way were interpreted wrongly. She will apply the law, a color blind law. And I think that fact that ideal and that notion has such appeal is very powerful and encouraging and she'll be confirmed.
BROWN: James, let me go back to you for the last word.
CARVILLE: All right. Well, I always thought everybody had a role to play. These senators had a role to play and they wanted to show their base that they could stand up for the white male, if you will, and she had a role to play and she was going to agree with them. And as Senator Graham said at the beginning of the hearing that she had the votes and I think she played it. She was in a prevent (ph) defense and she played it safe and that was probably a smart strategy.
BROWN: I wish we had more time here. Because, Maria, very quickly, my final question is, why are we doing these hearings then if it is, you know, everybody's sort of role-playing? I mean, a result of what happened to Robert Bork who we talked to on the show last night is that you frankly don't learn that much because the goal is to sort of say as little as possible to get through this process without getting beaten up.
ECHAVESTE: Well, maybe you don't learn as much from the nominee, but there is an important educational function. I think that there are folks across the country who are watching the hearings and learning a little more about the judicial system and the role the judges play. And so that is a good thing.
BROWN: Many, many thanks, Maria. To James, to Bill, and to Jeffrey as always, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
New developments tonight in the shocking case we have been telling you about of a mother and father of 17 children shot dead in the bedroom of their Florida home. Was it a robbery? Was there any other motive?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MORGAN: Trying to assess the entire spectrum of motives that may be involved in this case. That's a humdinger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: We have found them. Those words today from the sheriff of Escambia County, Florida after three more people were arrested in the shooting death of a couple with 17 children, most of whom are adopted and have special needs. The killings have dealt a staggering blow to the family, to the friends of the victims, Byrd and Melanie Billings. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: You'll remember Byrd and Melanie Billings, that wealthy couple with 14 children, most of them with special needs that were gunned down in their home. It was quite a murder mystery there in Florida for a while trying to figure out why anybody would want to kill these two.
MORGAN: We have information that indicates that there was an amount of practice that was involved. It was a very well-planned and well-executed operation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Authorities now say the suspects burst into the home, killed the couple and then stole a medium-sized safe. They squashed suggestions that something more sinister was behind the killings.
MORGAN: We as a society and specifically, Escambia County, witnessed the worst in man. Hatefulness, cruelty and indecency.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They had more love than anybody could ever imagine giving one person, much less 17. And I just -- we're still in shock. We just want everyone to know that they were great people, and this is not something that should have happened to people that were so giving.
MORGAN: I asked you if there was anything that I could do for you. And your response back to me was sheriff, find the people who did this. It is my honor today to tell you, Ashley, and your family, we have found them and they are in custody.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: In all, six men, one teenager now in custody. All will be charged with murder. The search for an eighth accomplice apparently is continuing, though.
A lot of details still are not being made public yet. Authorities are saying only that the couple was killed during a home invasion, a robbery.
And with me now is Crystal Collins Spencer who is a lawyer representing the oldest daughter of the victims. She's in Pensacola for us along with Rob Williams who has been covering this case from the very beginning. He's with NewsRadio 1620 down in Pensacola, as well.
Welcome to you both. Rob, let me start with you and just have you bring us up to date on the latest information. We're talking about at least seven people now, an organized gang, their ages ranging from 56 to 16 years old. Police saying robbery was the motive or at least one of the motives, but it feels like there's other stuff going on that we still don't know yet. What can you tell us?
ROB WILLIAMS, ANCHOR, NEWSRADIO 1620: Campbell, I think that's a really good point there. You noticed yesterday we talked about the FBI, the DEA, the ATF, the IRS, all in on this. In the news briefing today at noon, the sheriff said, you know, this is going to go to other states and to other countries.
So we've just maybe turned over the first few rocks in this whole series, or as the sheriff told me earlier today, this is more like a Cecil B. DeMille production. There are pieces and parts coming from everywhere. It's an epic struggle.
But the state attorney here, Bill Eddins, says that this matter is concluded. So they're happy they have at least this part of the case already solved.
BROWN: Well, Rob, yesterday police said the suspects apparently had no connection to the Billings, but they're also today saying that one of the suspects did do some work for the couple on the property. Do we know anything more about that?
WILLIAMS: Well, we do. That would be one of the guys doing the yard work, basically. Was involved doing the -- yes, Wayne Coldiron -- that's the guy's name -- was actually doing pressure washing along with Leonard Gonzalez Sr., a day laborer. The daughter of Coldiron says he did some yard work out there, as well.
That may be the one connection. We're not sure if he's the inside guy or not and, of course, the sheriff's department isn't even acknowledging that Pat Gonzalez, the younger, would be "mastermind" of this entire operation. He told the judge today no, sir, I wasn't. I should be released on my own recognizance. That is not going to happen.
BROWN: Well, the other thing that was striking to me about that, Rob, is this guy, the alleged mastermind here worked with children, right?
WILLIAMS: He did. As a matter of fact, he got an award just a couple of weeks ago from the Sertoma Club here in Pensacola for what they call Service to Mankind award for teaching elementary school, middle school kids basic self-defense, stranger danger, but a couple of moves that would perhaps deter someone who was trying to attack or accost them. He is known in the community that way.
The newspaper pulled his picture out. The TV station pulled the stories out. Then they've got all of this video now. We had no idea that it would go from that just a few weeks ago getting this award to being in jail with an open count of murder on him.
BROWN: All right. Rob, I'm going to turn now to Crystal and to get a better sense for what's going on with this family.
Crystal, tell us first about the status of these children. Who's taking care of them? Are they OK? How are they doing?
CRYSTAL COLLINS SPENCER, FAMILY'S ATTORNEY: Well, the children are safe. The children are with family members. And they are together and they're well taken care of. But where they're located at this time, we are still concerned about the safety of the children, and therefore we do not believe we should disclose their whereabouts.
BROWN: Understandably. Did the Billings lay out? Did they have a will that sort of laid out what was supposed to happen to the children in the event anything did happen to them? Or is Social Services involved?
SPENCER: Social Services are not involved. Yes, the Billings did take care of matters legally. So that is a process that will have to begin. Certainly right now, the family has been focused on the funeral arrangements.
You know, they've been focused on the investigation. They've been focused on taking care of nine special needs children. So the process now of guardianship and other matters, that will happen in due course.
BROWN: All right, Crystal Collins Spencer who is, of course, the attorney for the Billings family and Rob Williams, who is an anchor and host down there who's been helping us out, as well. I'm sure we're going to be talking about this --
WILLIAMS: Campbell, one thing?
BROWN: Yes. Go ahead, Rob.
WILLIAMS: I just want to make the point. Last night one of your other guests pointed out this was a small jurisdiction.
Note to this, 103 hours from the time the gunshots were fired until the last snick of the handcuffs this morning, and for the first time in five nights, Sheriff David Morgan is actually home before midnight. He was further pleased the way things have turned out here.
BROWN: Well, I think they are still waiting to get one more in custody from what we understand. We'll keep following this.
And, Rob, of course, we'll be talking to you again soon. Many thanks to our guests. Appreciate it, guys.
When we come back, we have new developments tonight in the investigation of Michael Jackson's death. We have that plus the new report that has Debbie Rowe demanding a retraction. We'll explain.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Lots of new developments tonight in the Michael Jackson investigation, including the threat of a lawsuit and investigators' surprise visit to one of Michael's doctors. Here to help us knock down the rumors and uncover the facts, Jim Moret, former CNN anchor and "Inside Edition" chief correspondent.
Jim, the tabloids are reporting a possible deal between the Jacksons and Debbie Rowe. What do we know?
JIM MORET, CNN CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Well, the "New York Post" actually reported the deal was signed, sealed and delivered and that Debbie Rowe would receive $4 million in exchange for the custody to the children. Her lawyer sent a letter to the "New York Post" basically with four bullet points.
But primary among them, he wanted an immediate retraction of the story saying there's been no agreement between Mrs. Rowe and Mrs. Jackson. She has not and will not give up her parental rights. No determination made with respect to custody or visitation. And lastly, and this is a big one, she has not accepted and will not accept any financial consideration beyond the spousal support she and Michael Jackson personally agreed to years ago.
This doesn't preclude, Campbell, the fact that a deal may be in the works. And we've been reporting that clearly because the delays have brought the two sides together that there may, in fact, be a deal so this won't be hammered out in court. But this lawyer for Debbie Rowe makes it very clear that no deal has been reached yet.
BROWN: And you're talking about the delay in these custody hearings that apparently both sides have requested?
MORET: Right. And frankly, the people that we've been talking to close to the Jackson family said that's a good thing because they didn't want this to go to court. They don't want a protracted and bitter public battle.
BROWN: Right.
MORET: They want to protect these kids.
BROWN: And, Jim, quickly, so today we understand the coroner visited the office of Dr. Klein. Toxicology reports are set to be released. What exactly is going on with that?
MORET: Well, the coroner clearly wanted more information. The coroner is only looking for one thing, that is the cause of death. That's the primary focus of the coroner's investigation. They needed more documentation.
The coroner did come out and say that the doctor has been -- has been cooperating extensively with the coroner's office. But clearly, they needed more information and we can only gleam from this that they want to know what drugs Michael Jackson was prescribed or given in the days immediately prior to his death.
BROWN: All right. Jim Moret -- Jim, as always, thanks.
MORET: Sure, Campbell.
BROWN: President Obama shows his personal side in an exclusive interview with CNN's Anderson Cooper revealing a powerful family moment from his trip to Ghana last week.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: During his weekend visit to Africa, President Obama sat down with my colleague, "360" anchor Anderson Cooper, for a wide ranging conversation. Tonight, Anderson is back with more of his exclusive interview.
And, Anderson, this is a deeply personal trip for both the president and the first lady.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN ANCHOR: Yes, it really was. They went to Cape Coast Castle in Ghana, which was really one of the most horrific places you can possibly visit in terms of the history that happened there. It was a central destination point for enslaved Africans. They were held there often anywhere from two weeks to several months before being shipped to the New World or shipped to America.
The president went there this weekend. He brought his wife and he brought his kids because he wanted them to see and obviously, the kids understand the history of the Castle. We talked to them about that, about the impact on the kids and also on his wife, who as President Obama mentioned during the campaign is a descendent of both slave and slave owners. I asked him about that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) COOPER: There's something you referenced actually during the campaign in your speech on race about your own wife, Mrs. Obama. You said that she has the blood of slaves and also slave owners.
OBAMA: Right. Right.
COOPER: How did she respond to sort of being here?
OBAMA: You know, I haven't had a chance to process it yet. I think, you know, we were both listening and talking to the children. But I can imagine that for her or her mother who's with us, our children's godmother who's with us, all of whom are direct descendents of slaves that seeing that portal doesn't send a powerful message of, you know, the kinds of emotions that must be evoked.
On the one hand, you know, it's through this door that the journey of the African-American experience begins. And, you know, Michelle and her family, like me, draw incredible inspiration and strength from that African-American journey.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: That portal he's talking about is the door of no return, which is the actual door that hundreds of thousands if not millions of slaves actually went through before being shipped off to the New World.
BROWN: What a pretty amazing thing to be able to expose your children to...
COOPER: Yes.
BROWN: ... to be able to take them to a place like this. Incredible trip and, of course, a lot more to come tonight at 10:00 Eastern time.
Don't forget, you can see more of Anderson's interview with the president. That's on "AC 360" tonight at 10:00 p.m. Eastern Time. Anderson, thanks.
And President Obama just took to the mound, we should tell you in St. Louis, throwing out the first pitch in the all-star game. Was the commander in chief able to throw the heat? You're going to see for yourself when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Obama just did something that no sitting president has done in more than 30 years. And Mike Galanos is back with that.
Mike, what do you know?
MIKE GALANOS, HOST, PRIME NEWS ON HLN: Hey, Campbell. Yes, he's the first president to throw out the first pitch in an all-star game since Gerald Ford back in 1976. Here's the video of it. BROWN: All right.
GALANOS: It happened just moments ago in St. Louis. You see a big ovation. He's got the White Sox jacket on, big Sox fan. He's got the jeans working.
Here he's getting the ball from Stan Musial, one of the game's all-time greats, Cardinal greats. Stan "The Man" Musial, 88 years old. Looking pretty good there. But President Obama talk about practicing for this, Campbell, so he didn't want to bounce it before home plate.
BROWN: Yes, that would be bad.
GALANOS: Yes, that would be bad. We know he can shoot some hoops, he's somewhat of an athlete. But can he pitch and can he pitch on the grand stage?
So looking like the athlete, the trot out to the mound. And here we go. Didn't waste any time.
Got the sign from Albert Pujols to the Cardinals, the wind and the delivery, the lefty --
BROWN: And --
GALANOS: He made it to the glove. We didn't see it. I don't want to be critical, but we could have had a little bit of camera work there, just my opinion. And then afterward, we see him, he pumps the fist. I don't know if we have that shot there.
But, Campbell, it's interesting to watch him in the locker room beforehand talking to some greats. I've had a chance to cover an all- star game and for the all stars to be star struck was really something to see.
He talked to Derek Jeter. Told Jeter he was a long-time fan. One Oriole asked him, hey, you've got a good curve ball, you're a lefty. And the president said, well, if I did I wouldn't run for president. So he was having some fun and the players, obviously, were as well. You see him shaking hands there.
BROWN: OK.
GALANOS: Here are some more Cardinals. Here comes the pump of the fist right here. Yes. Got it over the plate --
BROWN: All right. So that was the arm in slow-mo.
GALANOS: Exactly.
BROWN: I mean, you know about this stuff, Mike. Does he have a good arm?
GALANOS: Not bad. I wish we saw the whole thing. Not a lot of heat, but he threw a strike there. So we'll give him a thumb's up, Campbell. BROWN: OK. Cool video.
Mike Galanos with us tonight. Mike, thanks very much for that.
GALANOS: Thanks, Campbell. See you tomorrow.
BROWN: That does it for us. Have a great night.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.
