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Campbell Brown
Future of America's Space Program?; How Did American Soldier Fall Into Enemy Hands?; Obama and GOP Clash on Health Care Overhaul
Aired July 20, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Held hostage by the Taliban.
PRIVATE BOWE BERGDAHL, U.S. ARMY: I'm afraid that I might never see them again.
Video of a captured American soldier released to the world. How did he fall into enemy hands? CNN's Michael Ware takes us behind the scenes with the Taliban.
Tonight, a CNN exclusive -- the oldest of 17 children whose parents were gunned down in their Florida home
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have shielded them as much as possible.
ROBERTS: How is she caring for her mostly adopted and special-needs brothers and sisters? And why is the sheriff now talking about a new motive in the murders?
Forty years ago today, we put our footprint on the moon. Nothing seemed impossible. So, now what? Where should America's space program go from here? Mars, anyone?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. In for Campbell Brown, John Roberts.
ROBERTS: And good evening, everyone.
Those are our big questions tonight.
But, we start, as always, with the "Mash-Up," our look at that stories that are making an impact right now and the moments that you might have missed.
We're watching it all, so you don't have to.
Top Republicans tonight launching an all-out war on President Obama's health care reform, hoping to kill momentum, as Congress barrels toward the August recess.
Leading the charge? Party Chairman Michael Steele, today casting the president's plan as risky guesswork. Here's the view from the right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL STEELE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: President Obama is conducting an experiment. He's conducting a dangerous experiment, a reckless experiment, an unnecessary experiment, a risky multitrillion-dollar experiment, rushing this experiment, compelled to conduct this experiment, to experiment with our health care, experiment with the future.
Experiment. Experiment. Experimentation. More experimentation. It's time to put this experiment on the shelf.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Other Republicans sounding downright gleeful at the thought of killing health care reform.
South Carolina Senator Jim DeMint predicts: "If we're able to stop Obama on this, it will be his Waterloo. It will break him."
The president seized on that, happy to cast the battle as a crass political tussle, not a complex policy dispute. His press secretary, meanwhile, insisted things are moving along just fine. Behold the White House on message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And we can't afford the politics of delay and defeat. This isn't about politics. This is about a health care system that is breaking America's families. So, let's fight our way through the politics of the moment. Let's pass reform by the end of this year.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: But the president strongly believes that we can continue to make progress.
I think the president believes that we're making constructive progress. We're continuing to make progress and the president hopes that continues. The president believes we're making good progress. And the president believes we can get this done by August.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: You might have noticed that while the press secretary said August for a deal, the president said end of the year. Yes, we noticed that, too.
The president offering some optimism today on the economy, saying that we have edged away from the abyss, but there is a long way to go. Check out this elaborate analogy from his interview with PBS.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: The analogy I use time sometimes is, we have this beautiful house and there was a fire. We came in and we had to hose it down. The fire is now out, but what we have discovered is, we need some new tuck-pointing, the roof's leaking, the boiler's out. Oh, and, by the way, we're way behind on our mortgage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(LAUGHTER)
ROBERTS: Well, OK, then.
In Afghanistan tonight, the search is on for the first American soldier to be taken prisoner of war.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS: Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Admiral Mike Mullen said today the U.S. is doing absolutely everything it can to find Private Bowe Bergdahl, who was taken captive by the Taliban in Afghanistan.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-three-year-old Bowe Bergdahl was captured three weeks ago, just five months after he arrived in Afghanistan. The video of him being held hostage was released over the weekend. This is that video.
BERGDAHL: I have my girlfriend who I was hoping to marry. I have my grandma and grandpas. I have a very, very good family that I love back home in America. And I miss them. Every day that I'm gone, I miss them and I'm afraid that I might never see them again.
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: The Taliban threatens to kill him if foreign troops continuing targeting civilians, a tactic both U.S. and NATO forces deny.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: What's so amazing, Wolf, is, his family, his friends, his hometown in Idaho has kept the secret for weeks.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's a huge impact on this community because it's such a small one. Today, volunteers who maybe aren't speaking out verbally were showing their actions of support. They delivered yellow ribbons around the town of Hailey, along with signs asking for his safe return.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If there's any way for our country or other countries to let him know that we're supporting him, we will carry him as far as he needs to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Much more on this tonight. Our Michael Ware has inside knowledge of the extremists holding Bowe Bergdahl hostage. He's going to join us in just a little bit.
This is the bloodiest month for coalition troops in Afghanistan since the war began eight months ago, the Pentagon shipping more Americans to the war zone for an expanded mission, not just targeting terrorists, but tackling other Afghan problems, like the drug trade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, right now, the Marines back here are rigging these chemicals with explosives, C-4 plastic explosives. You can see them getting ready for what will be a controlled explosion in a couple of hours.
Now, the reason for this, the reason that these C-4 plastic explosives are being placed here, is because these chemicals are believed to be used to process heroin. More than 90 percent of the world's heroin comes from Afghanistan.
In the fields around this town where we're located right now, you can see miles of poppy fields growing there, where the heroin is then later produced. In a couple of hours, we expect before the sun comes up that these shop market stalls here in this busy bazaar, normally a busy bazaar, will go up in smoke.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Our Ivan Watson embedded with the Marines in southern Afghanistan.
In Los Angeles tonight, pop star Chris Brown publicly apologizing for beating his girlfriend Rihanna. Check out this online message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRIS BROWN, MUSICIAN: I have told Rihanna countless times and I'm telling you today that I'm truly, truly sorry and that I wasn't able to handle the situation both differently and better.
As many of you knew, I grew up in a home where there was domestic violence, and I saw firsthand what uncontrolled rage could do.
I sought and I'm continuing to seek help to ensure that what occurred in February can never happen again.
And, as I sit here today, I can tell you that I will do everything in my power to make sure that it never happens again. And I promise that.
What I did was unacceptable, 100 percent. I can only ask and pray you that forgive me, please.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Brown pleaded guilty to felony assault charges last month. Rihanna still has not spoken publicly about her ordeal.
Now on to stars who haven't fallen -- today's celebration of an otherworldly milestone, the 40th anniversary of man's first walk on the moon.
The original moonwalkers got an audience with the president at the White House today. And their astronaut friends were all over the television, their eyes still clearly on that final frontier.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was a great adventure for our generation. My question in my mind is, what is a great adventure for the next generation?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The ultimate goal, truly, is to go to Mars.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Some of us are saying, hey, Mars is a good thing to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That Mars is a goal that we should shoot for, to explore, to go there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the human spirit wants to take us out there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There may be life on Mars. If there is, it's for damn sure we ought to go there and look at it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Right on.
Of course, that Mars mission will cost some coin, lots of folks wondering if it's worth it these days. We will debate that later on tonight.
And before we wrap up, a moony punch line courtesy of David Letterman.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": Neil Armstrong, do you remember that? He gets out of the thing and he is standing there? You remember seeing the pictures of the barren lunar surface for as far endless horizon as you could see, bare lunar surface?
And now that's 40 years ago. You know what now? That's all condos.
(LAUGHTER)
LETTERMAN: All condos. That's all condos.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: David Letterman, everybody.
And that's the "Mash-Up."
Tonight, we are hearing exclusively from the oldest of 17 children whose parents were killed in their home in Florida. She is talking about what will happen next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: We could soon hear about an additional motive in the double murder of a Florida couple, the parents of 17 children, that word from the sheriff in Escambia County, who so far has said that robbery was at the center of the killings.
Tonight's newsmaker is the oldest of the Billings children. She is now taking it upon herself to care for her 16 siblings, most of whom are adopted and have special needs.
Late today, she talked about that in an exclusive interview with our national correspondent, Susan Candiotti.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
SUSAN CANDIOTTI, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: It must have been very hard, very hard to break the news to the children. How do you try to make them understand what has happened to their parents?
ASHLEY MARKHAM, DAUGHTER OF MELANIE BILLINGS: My mother was always very good at explaining to them when my sister passed away and also with my brother. She explained heaven very gently, that it was a wonderful place. The children knew that, when you sent balloons up to heaven, that they got the balloons.
You could talk to them. You could send them letters on their balloons, that there were angels. And, you know, one of the children, he said that he thought he was -- he was the luckiest boy in the world, because he now has five guardian angels, and nobody else has five guardian angels.
So, they're very accepting to the peacefulness of it. I'm sure questions will come later, but, right now, we have protected them, and we have been minimal in our conversations about it. If they ask questions, we definitely sit down and talk to them individually. But, as a group, we're going to get them the counseling that they need and make sure that they can follow the steps of grieving and completely understand what's happening.
CANDIOTTI: I'm wondering, do you think you could share maybe any one of the messages that, perhaps, one of the children that wrote to their mom and dad that went up to the balloons?
MARKHAM: There were several "I love you, mommy"s, "I love you daddy." I think one of them has said that, "You're the best mommy in the world."
There's just -- you know, they -- they understand. And they're compassionate children. And they know that they -- their mommy's not here. And children -- all children need a mommy. And she was the best mommy.
CANDIOTTI: Any special messages for their dad?
MARKHAM: Yes. There were "I love you, daddy"s. They each did one for mommy and one for daddy.
And one of the children, there was a letter that said, "I will miss fishing with you, daddy." They loved to go fishing. And -- but they have got lots of -- lots of people that have taken them fishing this weekend. So...
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Wow. Tough stuff.
Susan Candiotti joins us now live from Pensacola.
And, Susan, I understand you have got some new information about the investigation and what the sheriff is now saying? Can you share with us?
CANDIOTTI: That's right.
Well, for the first time, the sheriff is addressing in a direct way questions that have been circulating around this community. Were the Billings victims of a contract hit? And now the sheriff is saying: Yes, we are looking at it as a motive. We haven't taken that or anything else off the table.
Now, John, in the past, he has outright denied that this was even a possibility and said he was only looking at robbery as a motive. However, he has also repeatedly said that the Billings are not directly being looked at as suspects in any kind of criminal investigation. But this is new.
ROBERTS: All right. You also asked Ashley about the connection between one of the suspects, Leonard Gonzalez Jr., and the husband. What did she tell you about that?
CANDIOTTI: That's right.
Well, we were looking at that because, today, we learned for the first in some new documents released by the sheriff's office, a police affidavit, that one of the suspects, Leonard Gonzalez, as you indicated, told investigators that he knew the victims and also that he had received financial support from Mr. Billings.
When I asked Ashley about that, she said, "I don't remember him at all."
And then her lawyer stepped in to say, look, it is entirely possible that Mr. Billings, who has given -- made donations in the past to children's services, that, perhaps, he did that, because this man was running a martial arts program for children.
ROBERTS: The story still unfolding.
Susan Candiotti with the latest for us tonight from Pensacola -- Susan, thanks so much.
Held captive by the Taliban -- what the United States is doing to get their soldier back.
And this -- the driver, a mother, and two children trapped -- the dramatic rescue coming right up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Now a look at some of the other must-see stories of the day.
Randi Kaye is here tonight with tonight's "Download."
Hi, Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Good to see you, John.
The U.S. Army is recruiting more soldiers. Defense Secretary Robert Gates says he is increasing the size of the Army by up to 22,000 troops, as the strain of fighting two wars takes its toll.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERT GATES, U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: The persistent pace of operations in Iraq and Afghanistan over the last several years has steadily increased the number of troops not available for deployment in the Army.
These additional forces will be used to ensure that our deploying units are properly manned and not to create new combat formations.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: Gates called the troop increase temporary.
The total price tag for all of those federal government bailouts? Twenty-three-point-seven trillion dollars, almost double the nation's entire economic output for a single year.
That's part of a report from the man in charge of tracking TARP money. Neil Barofsky is expected to tell Congress tomorrow he's worried the Treasury Department isn't doing enough to prevent waste.
The dramatic rescue now of a woman and her two young children caught on camera in Milwaukee, Sunday, after an SUV crashed and then caught fire. Two off-duty firefighters and a cop led the way. But several neighbors also get some credit.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOEL RECHLITZ, RESCUED FAMILY FROM SUV: If it wasn't for the citizens that were bashing that window open that gave us access to the child, things would have been different. If that person didn't come forward with that pocketknife, things would have been different. If that lady didn't come through with that garden hose, you know, the burns sustained to that child would have been much more severe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: An amazing scene playing out there.
The 4-year-old boy is in critical condition. The two firefighters were also burned saving him.
And, finally, Paula Abdul might be done with "American Idol." Yes, it's true. The show's producers reportedly haven't invited her back for next season. Do tell. Yes, of course, John. Abdul's former manager tells "The L.A. Times" she's not a happy camper about this and apparently she has some ideas for her own show.
ROBERTS: Oh, my goodness. That's a very lucrative broadcast...
(CROSSTALK)
KAYE: Yes. I sense some competition there.
ROBERTS: Randi Kaye, thanks so much.
KAYE: You're very welcome.
ROBERTS: Always great to see you. Appreciate it.
President Obama talks about his deadline for health care reform and why it needs to happen so quickly.
Also, the American captured in Afghanistan -- we will talk with CNN's Michael Ware, who is familiar with the Taliban commanders who are holding him hostage.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: President Obama is keeping up the pressure on Congress to get a deal on health care, sooner rather than later. Today, the president slammed those on the right whom he accuses of using politics as a roadblock to reform.
But a GOP critic thinks the White House has its own reasons for wanting speedy approval.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: We have talked this problem to death year after year. But, unless we act, and act now, none of this will change.
SEN. ORRIN HATCH (R), UTAH: You're talking about one-sixth of the American economy. You're talking about myriad problems here. You're talking about people who are all over the map as far as trying -- what they really want to do.
And I think there's a really good reason why the president wants to do it. He knows he can't sell it if it lasts -- if the debate lasts very long, because it is so expensive and costly.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: A short time ago, I spoke with independent Senator Joe Lieberman, who along with five Democratic and Republican colleagues wrote a letter to the president urging a go-slow bipartisan approach to health care.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Senator, it's good to talk to you today. Thanks very much for taking the time.
Where does all of this stand now that -- this health care bill? What's going on in the Senate?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (I), CONNECTICUT: There is a lot of work to do. And I think people understand how big this bill is, how much it will affect every American, how much it will affect our national debt long term.
I think my colleagues want to get this right. So it can be done this year. It should be done this year. But let's get it done right instead of getting it done quickly just for the sake of getting it done.
ROBERTS: As you know, the president is pushing back. He really wants this. He said, quote: "It has been talked to death year after year." Is he pushing too hard?
LIEBERMAN: Well, I think the fact that President Obama is pushing is one of the reasons why we're probably going to get something done in terms of health care reform this year.
But it's important not to push too hard too fast. Keep it moving, but, you know, wait until it's really ready and we've got a plan that enjoys a consensus.
We're dealing with something enormous and complicated that matters a lot to people. We're trying to contain cost, that's the number one goal. And we've got to do it in a way that doesn't increase our national debt long term.
ROBERTS: Senator, I talked to your colleague there in the Senate, Ben Nelson, from Nebraska, on Friday. And he basically told me that the Charlie Rangel plan to pay for this with a surcharge -- a tax surcharge on high income-earners is pretty much a non-starter.
Nancy Pelosi seems to be modifying that somewhat, saying, OK, you didn't like it at $250,000, we're going to raise the threshold so that individuals making a half a million dollars or families making a million dollars are the ones who are going to pay for this.
Does that make it any more palatable to you?
LIEBERMAN: It probably does make it more palatable. Look, John, overall, I think we need tax reform in our country. We probably need to ask more of the highest income-earners in our country than they are paying now.
But it really ought not to be done as part of health care reform. I would like to see us finance this out of the savings we achieve on health care reform.
And incidentally, I would like to see us begin to think now about focusing on the ways we can reform our system to save money and think about phasing in the coverage of the 45 million to 47 million people that don't have it now.
That's really what costs almost all of the trillion dollars that we're scurrying around looking for ways to raise taxes to pay for.
ROBERTS: Senator, if you put the burden strictly on the highest income-earners in this country, do you risk, you know, what we saw in the 2000 campaign, this idea of class warfare?
And at the same time, if they are the ones who are paying for it solely, you know, there are many Democrats who are pretty wealthy, do you risk any blowback from them?
LIEBERMAN: Well, you might. Look, I think the best time to raise taxes on the wealthy, if that's what we're going to do, is to do it as part of overall tax reform, and an overall focus on reducing America's long-term debt.
We're bankrupting our children's future, and our grandchildren's future. And we've got to stop that. And we don't want to make that problem worse in adopting health care reform than it would otherwise be.
And, frankly, we don't want to, I think, get into the overall tax reform question, which we're going to need to save to fix that larger looming problem of America's current fiscal irresponsibility.
ROBERTS: Senator Joe Lieberman, it's always great to catch up with you. Thanks so much for being with us. Appreciate it.
LIEBERMAN: Great to talk to you, John. Have a good one.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ROBERTS: Want to bring in now our senior political analyst, Gloria Borger. She's in Washington.
You heard what the senator had to say about taxes just a second ago, Gloria. Let's leave that for a second, but get down to the speed of this whole thing. Senator Lieberman and some of his other colleagues want to slow this process down. They say, it's going too fast; we don't want to make a mistake.
If they slow it down and they slow it down substantially, does that risk taking enough momentum out of it that they could kill it?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, when you talk to folks at the White House, they say exactly that. They say, look, we have got momentum now. We're as close as we have ever been. The three out of five congressional committees with jurisdiction over this have passed some form of legislation. And we have to get the momentum going even further. That's why you're going to see this president every day this week talking about health care reform. He's having a press conference Wednesday night. That's going to be about health care reform.
I think the next question we have to ask about the president is, when is he going to lay down his principles upon which he will not give? Is he going to tell us that? Is he going to draw lines in the sand, or is it going to be somewhere between those two things? And I think we will find that out on Wednesday.
ROBERTS: This issue of cost, when Doug Elmendorf, the CBO director went before Congress last week, and he went before them one day and said this is going to add to the government's exposure in terms of the money that is paid out for all of this, and then on Friday he came up with a figure and he said over 10 years this is going to add over $239 billion to the debt, that seemed to scare the bejesus out of senators.
BORGER: Absolutely, and moderate Democrats in the House as well.
Look, Congress is very good at proposing things. They're not very good at paying for them. And as Senator Lieberman was just saying in your interview, what they have to figure out really is how to control costs, because people in this country understand that we have got a problem with skyrocketing medical costs.
We have also got a problem with a skyrocketing deficit right now. And people in this country are very concerned about adding to that deficit, because they don't want their children and grandchildren to have a big bill.
ROBERTS: Now, proponents of the bill will say, well, wait a second. Yes, the CBO said that this could cost $239 billion. But there cost savings in this proposal that could add up to $245 billion, which means, at the end of 10 years, we could come out with a $6 billion surplus.
BORGER: Right. Right.
ROBERTS: What's the likelihood that that's going to happen?
(LAUGHTER)
BORGER: Surplus is a word we haven't heard in quite some time.
You know, I think if this were at any other time and we weren't in such an economic crisis in this country and people weren't so focused on the finances of the nation as well as their own finances, you know, you might be able to believe in a surplus.
But right now, I think people want to see numbers that they can believe. And Democrats believe you might end up with it, but Republicans and moderate Democrats are saying, show me. And so the administration has to show them.
ROBERTS: Gloria Borger, it's always great to catch up with you. Thanks for joining us tonight. BORGER: Sure.
ROBERTS: As Gloria mentioned, President Obama holds a news conference Wednesday at 8:00 Eastern. We're going to have that here on CNN.
Ahead, an American soldier taken prisoner in Afghanistan. What a videotape could say about his captors.
And later, NASA's next mission. We've been to the moon. So why not Mars?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: To Afghanistan now and the search for captured Army Private First Class Bowe Bergdahl. The Taliban released a video of him drawing a quick condemnation from U.S. officials.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PFC. BOWE R. BERGDAHL, U.S. ARMY: I have my girlfriend who I was hoping to marry. I have my grandma and grandpas. I have a very, very good family that I love back home in America. And I miss them every day that I'm gone. I miss them and I'm afraid that I might never see them again.
ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: My personal reaction was one of disgust at the exploitation of this young man.
ADM. MICHAEL MULLEN, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: Having been with the forces, in fact, who are conducting the operations to recover him or to find him is they are extensive vast. They're on it 24/7, and we're doing absolutely everything we can to get him back.
BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: What does that mean? Air drones flying overhead, passing out fliers on the ground, collecting intelligence, seeing if they can eavesdrop, if you will, on any conversations that they might be able to hear.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: CNN Pentagon correspondent Chris Lawrence joins us now from Washington. And with me here in New York, Michael Ware, who's actually spent considerable time with the Taliban leaders now holding Bergdahl. And Seth Jones, he's just back from Afghanistan and he is the author of "In the Graveyard of Empires: America's War in Afghanistan."
Chris, let's start with you. The Taliban, the U.S. military, and Bowe Bergdahl all giving different reasons for why he was captured by the Taliban or how he came to be, what he was doing at the time. What's the best assessment that we have of exactly how he was captured?
CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Yes, John, right now, there are three versions of what happened to him. The Taliban says that Private Bergdahl visited another military outpost, got drunk and was ambushed on his way back to his car. But a military source, an American military source says the Taliban is lying about him being drunk but that he did leave his small outpost on his own and he went without his weapons.
And on the videotape that you just saw, the soldier, himself says that he was on patrol but that he was lagging behind when he was captured. The one thing that they all can probably agree on is that he has been moved several times since his capture.
ROBERTS: Seth Jones, when the Taliban says that he was drinking, is there any reason to believe them?
SETH JONES, AUTHOR, "IN THE GRAVEYARD OF EMPIRES": No, for several reasons. One is that no military base in Afghanistan is allowed to have alcohol at all. U.S. military soldiers are actually removed from Afghanistan if they're drinking at all, so you can't find alcohol at a U.S. military base. Second of all, it really --
MICHAEL WARE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I'm not sure about that, Seth. I've had a few drinks on a few bases in Afghanistan.
JONES: Well, but in general, I mean, the penalty for a soldier to drink --
WARE: General standing order number one is a war crime in itself. Preventing alcohol.
JONES: But the second issue this is just great propaganda, to be able to show the infidel drinking in a country where they don't drink alcohol I think is a useful propaganda tool.
ROBERTS: Right.
So, Michael, as we said, you have spent considerable time. You were familiar with the people who are holding Bergdahl.
WARE: Very much so.
ROBERTS: Tell us what you know.
WARE: These -- this is the Haqqani network. It's led by Jalaluddin (ph) Haqqani. He used to be the CIA's greatest ally in the 1980s. Indeed, he was the man who took then-Congressman Charlie Wilson into Afghanistan and brought him back out.
Now, while the Pakistani intelligence service who's pilfering all the money had all its little patrons, the CIA developed its own independent channel and Haqqani was very important to that. Now, Haqqani became very aggrieved when America abandoned him and Afghan --
ROBERTS: And plenty (INAUDIBLE) --
WARE: As they did. And I know that in the months after 9/11, there were conversations with Haqqani trying to bring him back in from the fold. And as far as he was concerned, he was simply fighting another foreign occupation. But this will now fit into a much greater picture. This private first class is now going to be a key joker card that the Taliban can play in negotiations to end this war. As we know, the Pakistani intelligence organization has always been the conduit to the Taliban. They've now finally admitted in public that they've talking to Mullah Omar, Haqqani and all the rest. It's almost like this private was a target of opportunity, and he's now going to be well-used in any forthcoming negotiations.
ROBERTS: Chris Lawrence, pick that up for us. What's the Pentagon saying about the potential that he could be used as some sort of a bargaining chip? You know, I don't think that he goes through this survival of Asian resistance and escape training that many flyers do or special operations forces. Are they worried about his state of mind there? Are they worried about how he's surviving his captivity?
LAWRENCE: They are. You know, there is that intense resistance in escape training that involves food and sleep deprivation. But again, like you said, that's only given to pilots, special ops, people at very high risk of being captured.
Private Bergdahl would have gone through a very basic version of that. He would have been instructed to follow his captors' directions, not make enemies of his captors. But he would have been told to always look for a chance to escape. It's the difference between being a prisoner of war and a prisoner at war.
ROBERTS: Go ahead, Mike.
WARE: That's one thing. Right now, at this junction in the war, he is more valuable to the Taliban alive than dead. If he was with Al Qaeda, he'd be dead by now.
JONES: Yes. And one of the interesting components of this, too, is David Rohde (ph), "The New York Times" correspondent was captured by the Taliban in Logar province and transferred to the Haqqani network and was kept alive.
WARE: Right.
JONES: He was actually brought across the border into Pakistan, in the north of Waziristan --
WARE: Well, that's where he is now. The soldier, he's in Waziristan.
ROBERTS: Do you think he's in Pakistan?
WARE: I have no doubt he's in Pakistan. That's where Haqqani is. That's where his bases are, that's where he trains, equips. And it's from there that he launches his attacks. And it's all with the tolerance, not the support but the tolerance of the Pakistani intelligence agency.
ROBERTS: So do you expect, Seth and Michael, that there is any way that the U.S. could launch a rescue mission?
WARE: No, not a chance.
JONES: Well, we would have to have very, very specific information on his whereabouts. Very good information about the security detail around him.
WARE: And you have to get Pakistan's permission. I'm not going to get to that. I'm not going to get to that.
(CROSSTALK)
JONES: And you have to get --
ROBERTS: Bottom line, because his parents may be watching as well -- from what you know of the Haqqani network, do you believe his life is in danger?
WARE: I think, I firmly believe they're going to keep him alive. Haqqani is an old-school warrior. He's one of the greatest battle commanders that Afghanistan's ever produced. He is well-aware of this soldier's political value.
And as I said, he is much more valuable to them alive than dead. It might not be pleasant. It's going to be very, very basic. But it's not in their interest to kill him right now.
There's nothing to be gained from it. Even the propaganda value would be minimal because he's far more valuable in forcing America to the table and to give concession (ph).
ROBERTS: Let's hope you're right. Michael Ware, Seth Jones and Chris Lawrence, thanks so much.
"The Wingnut Watch." Coming up next, John Avlon on hand with his pick for the most out there statement of the past few days.
In tonight's spotlight, outrageous comments about whether the Pentagon should even care about saving Private Bergdahl.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Time now for the segment that we call "The Wingnut Watch." Our next guest, "Daily Beast" contributor John Avlon calls out someone on the left to the right who divides rather than unites us. And he's here. Who's tonight's wingnut?
JOHN AVLON, CONTRIBUTOR, THE DAILY BEAST: Well, John, you know, this weekend when the videotape of Bowe Bergdahl was released, there was a lot of outpouring support for him around the country especially his hometown in Idaho. But some of the pundits took on the air. And a newspaper columnist, Lt. Col. Ralph Peters, who is a normally respected foreign policy analyst, military analyst, he took a step way over the line. Let's take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RALPH PETERS, "THE NEW YORK POST": When the facts are in, we find out that through some convoluted chain of events he really was captured by the Taliban, I'm with him. But if he walked away from his post and his buddies in wartime, I don't care how hard it sounds. As far as I'm concerned, the Taliban can save us a lot of legal hassles and legal bills.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: So it sounds like Peters is suggesting here that if he, in fact, is a deserter, he wouldn't mind if the Taliban killed him.
AVLON: That is what appears what he is suggesting. And he also accused him in the interview of collaborating with the enemy and saying he's not a hero.
And that's why it's obviously crossed the line. There's not a lot we know about the situation. What we know for sure is that one of our soldiers is being held hostage by the Taliban in a time of war. And if you give every criminal the benefit of the doubt in our legal system, our still fighting men and women deserve at least ten times that.
ROBERTS: Yes. There's at least three different stories out there right now on how he was captured. But it sounds like Peters is calling him out as a liar as well. What's he basing that on?
AVLON: He calls him as -- well, he says that he did not fall away from his troop as he suggests. As you say, there are three stories out there but that all seems to me beside the point. There needs to be a presumption of goodwill.
We all need to rally around our soldiers. And if a liberal commentator had said that about a soldier taken captive during the Battle of Fallujah, let's say, there would have been a deafening outcry, and that would have been the right thing to do.
So fair is fair. This is way over the line, and this is not acceptable stuff. This is wingnut stuff. We have to rally behind our troops 100 percent until it sorts down.
ROBERTS: So is he is just a candidate for wingnut of the week at this point, or do you think that he's got a pretty clear line on that?
AVLON: I think he's got an inside line, but we'll judge that separately come Friday morning.
ROBERTS: All right. John Avlon, it's good to see you. Don't forget that John is on our live blog chatting with you. The address, CNN.com/campbell.
"LARRY KING LIVE" coming up at the top of the hour. Larry is with us now. And who do you have with you tonight?
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": Oh, we got a good one. Joe Jackson is with us tonight. Michael Jackson's father sits down. His first live interview since his son's death. We'll ask him how he and the family are doing. And Joe will try to set the record straight hopefully on drugs and the autopsy. His remarks about foul play. And Michael Jackson's Joe Jackson is next on "LARRY KING LIVE."
Won't be dull, John.
ROBERTS: What about Michael Jackson's childhood? You're going to go over that as well?
KING: I imagine we will.
ROBERTS: All right. Looking forward to that. Larry, we'll be watching for sure.
KING: We'll give it our best shot.
ROBERTS: All right. Thank you. Larry, we'll see you tonight, just a few minutes from now.
Tonight marks 40 years since man's first walk on the moon. Should we shoot for Mars next? Or is it just a massive waste of money? That's our "Great Debate" coming up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: It was 40 years ago today and the dramatic moment is unforgettable for anyone alive at the time. Eyes around the world riveted to the television, ears tuned to the radio. Here now moments from then and from today's anniversary of the first walk on the moon.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five, four, three, two, one, zero. All engine running. Liftoff. We have a liftoff.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Griffin, the Eagle has landed.
NEIL ARMSTRONG, APOLLO 11 ASTRONAUT: That's one small step for man, one giant leap for mankind.
Here men from the planet earth first step foot upon the moon, July, 1969 AD (ph). We came in peace for all mankind.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I remember waving American flags and my grandfather telling me that the Apollo mission was an example of how Americans could do anything they put their minds to. And one of the things that I've committed to doing as president is making sure that math and science is cool again.
BUZZ ALDRIN, APOLLO 11 ASTRONAUT: There may be life on Mars. If there is, it's we're damn sure we ought to go there and look at it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right on.
(END VIDEO CLIP) ROBERTS: Right on. And that is tonight's "Great Debate." Is a trip to Mars necessary or is it just a massive waste of money?
Joining us, Professor Howard McCurdy of American University, an expert on space policy who supports a mission to Mars. And David Williams of the group, Citizens Against Government Waste, who's going against going to Mars.
First, opening statements from each. Thirty seconds on the clock, gentlemen.
David, let's start with you. Make your case.
DAVID WILLIAMS, CITIZENS AGAINST GOVERNMENT WASTE: We have a $1.4 trillion deficit. A trip to Mars right now is a luxury, not a necessity. We need to re-evaluate spending at all levels and NASA is first on the list to re-evaluate because at this point, we cannot afford to go to Mars. And there needs to be different ways to look at this and how we can accomplish this without taxpayer-funded missions.
ROBERTS: Wow, you did that in just a little more than 21 seconds. All right.
Howard, your turn. You've got 30 seconds. Make your case for going to Mars.
HOWARD MCCURDY, AMERICAN UNIVERSITY: I'll tell you why we need to go to Mars. We need to go to Mars because we don't know how to do it, because we can't afford to go. And in the words of President Kennedy, when he defended the Apollo missions to the moon, nothing will serve more to organize our skills than an objective of this sort.
It would be a transitional change for us. It would ultimately give us the capability to move around the inner solar system. We need that capability if we're going to be a long lived technological civilization.
ROBERTS: Boy, you both came in under 30 seconds. Very efficient tonight.
But, David, let's just talk about that idea that John F. Kennedy in the early 1960s said that he wanted to put a man on the moon within ten years. There was a space race with the Russians at that point. But above and beyond that, it was a boon for American technology. Gave us everything from Teflon to Velcro. So you know, the products of discovery, of continuing to explore space, did they not outweigh the costs?
WILLIAMS: Well, first of all, I don't buy that premise that we wouldn't have discovered these things anyway. We would have discovered Teflon. We would have discovered plasma TVs and Tempur firm (ph). So I don't think that you can say this only because of space travel that we discovered these.
The private sector is doing a really good job at discovery, and it doesn't need to go to outer space to do them. So, as I said, John, I don't necessarily buy that argument.
ROBERTS: What do you say about that, Howard? And I should say that, too, I had a Tempur-Pedic bed for a while, one of those mattresses that came out of the space program.
MCCURDY: I had a chance when I was much younger to stand in the room where the flight simulators were for landing on the moon. The computers were real to real computers. They took up an area that was the size of a lecture hall.
The block two computer that was on the Apollo lander that landed on the moon was the size of a briefcase. That's the technological advance that NASA helped us make in an eight-year period. I can go through a lot more and there are a lot more.
Fuel cells, propulsion methodologies. NASA wasn't the only force behind these but it was one of the forces. You remove that force, I think you've weaken the United States and its ability to have a technological economy.
ROBERTS: Here's another thing that proponents of the space program keep in mind, that there are only seven more shuttle missions left. The shuttle is going to be retired at the end of 2010. There is no immediate program for NASA to pick up on after that unless there is a plan to go to the moon and then Mars beyond that, which means that if you want to get Americans up to the International Space Station, you're going to have to rely on the Russians to do it.
The Chinese are making huge inroads in launching satellites into space. They want to commercialize that. Maybe they want to go beyond that as well.
So, David Williams, do we risk falling behind if we don't continue to pursue space exploration?
WILLIAMS: Oh, absolutely not, because the government isn't the only entity that can go to space. You have the private sector now trying to commercialize space travel.
And why not provide incentives to some of these companies? Why not say to a company if you colonize the moon, we're going to give you 50- year tax exempt status at the federal level or we're going to give you some cash prizes?
Right now, NASA is pretty inefficient. And the reason why that we're getting rid of the shuttle is that the space station, they're getting ready to mothball the space station which has caused $100 billion.
And, John, I don't know if you remember but there were all these promises of the world donating to this and pitching in for the funding of this. It never materialized. And now we have a $100 billion space station that NASA, itself, is saying, well, maybe its time has come and gone. So, yes, these space shuttle missions are dwindling because NASA is no longer a relative (ph) agency.
ROBERTS: I should point out that I talked to one of the foremost leaders in the commercialization of space, Sir Richard Branson last month. I asked him if he thought that private enterprise had any kind of role in space exploration. He seemed to think that it was limited to satellite launches, lower orbit sort of stuff.
So, Howard, if we don't keep the government involved, do we risk falling behind?
MCCURDY: Well, I think NASA needs to have a transitional goal. I won't defend NASA here. It's become the General Motors of space. It needs to have some sort of an incentive like project Apollo that moves it forward.
You know, it had that incentive for the robotic space flight program in the 1990s over the last 20 years. They made tremendous advances in robotic space flight. I'd like to see the same thing happen to the human space flight program, and I think that a Mars goal would do that. But I certainly -- go ahead.
ROBERTS: Let me ask you just one final question, Howard, to wrap this up. Going to the moon is one thing, it's 250,000 miles away. Mars is a whole lot further. Just the trip, itself, would be 2 1/2 years. Is it just prohibitively expensive to go to Mars?
MCCURDY: It is prohibitively expensive and that's the reason to go because the only way we'd be able to go is if we drove the cost of space flight down. We tried to do that with the space shuttle in 1972. It didn't work. It's a worthy goal. We ought to renew it.
ROBERTS: Final point, David Williams, ten seconds.
WILLIAMS: Well, people are being asked to sacrifice around this country because of the economic times we live in. The government needs to do the same. We can't afford multibillion dollar trips to the moon, to Mars or anywhere at this point in time.
ROBERTS: David Williams and Howard McCurdy in our "Great Debate" tonight on space. Gentlemen, thanks very much. A vigorous debate. Really lively, really enjoyed it.
MCCURDY: Thank you.
ROBERTS: Wednesday is going to be a big night here at CNN. At 8:00 Eastern, President Obama holds a primetime news conference where his main emphasis is expected to be health care reform.
And then at 9:00 p.m., a major CNN event, the premiere of "Black in America 2." Special correspondent Soledad O'Brien reports on the most challenging issues facing African-Americans and the groundbreaking solutions coming from the community.
Thanks for joining us tonight. I'll be back tomorrow for "AMERICAN MORNING" starting at 6:00 a.m. Eastern. Among our guests tomorrow, John McCain and Governors Ed Rendell and Bobby Jindal.
"LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. Tonight, Michael Jackson's father, Joe Jackson. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
