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Campbell Brown
Battle Over Jackson's Money; Interview With Former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani; Interview with Lawyer of Madoff's Victims and Insights on Madoff; Will Health Care Reform Make or Break Obama's Presidency?
Aired July 29, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. What's life like behind bars for billionaire scammer Bernie Madoff? The jailhouse interview.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He paints signs and clerks to make sure that signs get painted. It's a long way from Wall Street.
BROWN: Hear for the first time what Madoff says about his billion- dollar Ponzi scheme and what happened to all that money.
Plus, the battle over Michael Jackson's money. His mother takes on the big businessmen controlling the half-a-billion dollar estate.
And tonight's newsmaker, Will.i.am. He was working on new music with Michael Jackson before his death. Will we ever get to hear it?
WILL.I.AM, MUSICIAN: I would love -- I would love for it to come out. The things that we came up with were spectacular.
BROWN: Plus, our political newsmaker tonight, Rudy Giuliani. Will he make another run for the White House?
(on camera): What are your plans? Are we going to see you running for president?
(voice-over): And after his first loss in years, Michael Phelps is back on top, but there's yet another swimsuit controversy.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. Those are the big questions tonight.
But we start, as we always do, with the "Mash-Up," our look at all the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may missed today. We're watching it all, so you don't have to.
We began tonight with the woman whose 911 call triggered a racial firestorm. She's breaking her silence today. Lucia Whalen called the cops on Harvard Professor Henry Louis Gates nearly two weeks ago. Well, since then she says she's been living a nightmare maybe because of reports that she told police two black men were trying to break into the Cambridge home.
Well, 911 tapes released this week revealed that Whalen didn't bring up race at all. Her news conference today highly emotional. Here's the CliffsNotes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LUCIA WHALEN, MADE 911 CALL: When I was called racist and I was a target of scorn and ridicule because of the things I never said, the criticism hurt me as a person.
I hope that the truth of the tapes will help heal the Cambridge community, as much as it has helped to restore my reputation.
I hope people can see that I tried to be careful and honest with my words.
If you're a concerned citizen, you should do the right thing, if you're seeing something that seems suspicious. I would do the same thing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The country deeply divided over the Gates incident.
A new NBC News/"Wall Street Journal" poll showing 27 percent blame the professor, 11 percent blame the cop, 29 percent say they're both at fault.
White House beer fest tomorrow night, 6:00, should be a party.
In health care, good news for President Obama from Capitol Hill today, but some bad news, too. The good news, first, those rebel conservative Democrats are back at the bargaining table. Score one for the White House. But now the bad news. No chance anything is going to pass before the August recess, giving the president's opponents lots of time to freak out an already anxious public.
And get a load of this scare tactic, some conservatives hitting that the president's plan would lead to government-encouraged euthanasia for senior citizens. Here's the view now from the right.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BETSY MCCAUGHEY, PATIENT ADVOCATE: This is the harshest misconception in the bill, by the way, that living longer is -- burdens society, that people shouldn't be allowed to live so long because it's a burden on society.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everyone over age 65 will be required to have an end-of-life consultation with their physician.
MICHAEL STEELE, CHAIRMAN, REPUBLICAN NATIONAL COMMITTEE: It will make the Terri Schiavo case look like a walk in the park. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Republicans have a better solution that won't put the government in charge of people's health care and is pro-life because it will not put seniors in a position of being put to death by their government.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: President Obama has called this whole line of attack morbid, saying the plan would help seniors deal with end-of-life issues like hospice care, not euthanasia.
This all underscores the public's fear of a Big Brother style government takeover, the president hard to convince the public that that's not going to happen, that if you're happy with the health care you have got, by all means keep it. Here he is very much on message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: If you like your doctor, you keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you keep your health care plan.
If you like your doctor, you will keep your doctor. If you like your health care plan, you will keep your plan.
If you have got a doctor that you like, you will be able to keep your doctor. Nobody is trying to change what works.
No longer will insurance companies be allowed to drop or water down coverage for someone who has become seriously ill.
Drop or water down coverage for someone who becomes seriously ill.
That's not right. It's not fair.
It's not right. It's not fair.
They can't just drop you if you get too sick.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Expect to hear more of the same from the president day in and day out.
Dramatic pictures tonight from just outside Baghdad, Iraqi police storming a camp of refugees from Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: This is a dramatic example of tough choices Iraqi officials are making as the U.S. military pulls out. Here they are targeting refugees considered terrorists by both Iran and the United States.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are Iraqi police officers with that high- pressure water hose, sticks and sheer numbers getting physical with residents of an Iranian exile camp. And it was rough. At least seven people from that camp are reported dead, 400 people reportedly hurt. The police have one account of what happened. The Iranians have quite another.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Images captured by residents inside Ashraf showed the dead and wounded. Residents told CBS News at least 11 people were killed, hundreds wounded and 30 arrested.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That camp had previously been protected by American troops.
News here at home, for those looking to get some fake sun this summer, well, you may want to reconsider.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We also have a new warning about tanning beds. The World Health Organization is now listing them among the top risks for cancer alongside cigarettes and asbestos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The same cancer risk as plutonium and radon.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And they can be as deadly as arsenic.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's something more dangerous than the swine flu.
JOHN ROBERTS, CO-HOST, "AMERICAN MORNING": Yes, I know. Oh, my goodness. They wanted to class it in the same category as arsenic and mustard gas.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now is the time to really listen to me. the risk of cancer if you go into these things jumps by 75 percent if you use one before you're 30. That will scare you away, won't it?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The Indoor Tanning Association calls the report overhyped, saying indoor tanning is about as dangerous as sunshine.
Here's a story about a bed that won't hurt you, maybe, mattress dominoes, yes, mattress dominoes. This is a new video gone viral. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Literally 41 people lined up to play mattress dominoes. That's what you're watching at this bedding warehouse in England. The game of mattress dominoes has been catching on, especially on college campuses. Now it's even being recognized by "The Guinness Book."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That tape shot in the U.K., but apparently mattress big American trend as well. Check YouTube. You can thank me later.
And that brings us to our punchline, courtesy of Stephen Colbert, who is certainly looking forward to tomorrow's beer fest at the White House.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE COLBERT REPORT": This post-racial beer fest scheduled for this Thursday at 6:00 all stems from last week, when Officer Crowley arrested Henry Louis Gates in the fact of being in his own home.
(LAUGHTER)
COLBERT: Now, in Officer Crowley's defense, Gates' fingerprints were everywhere.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Stephen Colbert, everybody.
That's the "Mash-Up."
Three big newsmakers joining us tonight, music star Will.i.am on the music he was recording with Michael Jackson right before his death, plus Bernie Madoff's jailhouse interview. Find out what life is like for him behind bars for that billion-dollar swindler. And also Rudy Giuliani, hear what he says to the crazy fringe known as birthers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUDOLPH GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: I don't get the issue. I don't know why they're pushing it as far as they are. And it does -- the fair point is, it does obscure the message. There are important messages that conservative Republicans have to deliver to this country about overspending, reducing the size of the military. Those are the things we should be talking about.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our political newsmaker tonight has made a lot of news in his time as mayor of New York City during the attacks on September 11, and as a contender for the GOP presidential nomination in 2008. And Rudy Giuliani is making news now with some pretty unbridled criticism of President Barack Obama. I talked to him earlier about that and other political matters.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Mayor Giuliani, welcome to you.
GIULIANI: Campbell, nice to be with you. BROWN: I want to talk about the Republican Party in a moment.
GIULIANI: Sure.
BROWN: A lot to talk about on that front.
But let me first ask you about President Obama, because you recently said that his first seven months have been in your view much worse than you had thought they would be. What's alarmed you the most?
GIULIANI: Well, I think he has gone much further to the left than I thought he would. I thought he ran as sort of a moderate Democrat.
And you look at the stimulus package, the cap and trade legislation, now the attempt to, however you want to describe it, but take large portions of medical care and put it under the government, this has been massive government, at a time in which I thought we had gotten control of that. This is more spending than ever before in a short period of time, more creation of government bureaucracies, new government bureaucracies.
It's probably the most left-wing agenda that any Democratic president has had I guess since Roosevelt.
BROWN: What about on the homeland security front? There are some in your party, like former Vice President Dick Cheney, who have actually gone as far to say that President Obama has made us left safe.
GIULIANI: I tend to think, on foreign policy, a mixed picture. I don't have the same completely negative opinion that I have on the economic front.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: He has surprised many on the foreign policy front, being far more centrist.
GIULIANI: I think Afghanistan -- he kept his word on Afghanistan. You never know when somebody is running if they are going to change their mind when they get into office. But he's been very strong about Afghanistan. He's pursuing terrorism in Afghanistan.
I don't agree with his desire to want to negotiate with Ahmadinejad, like Hillary Clinton before. I still think that's a mistake. I think it puts America in a weaker position. I think there's a little bit too much demilitarization going on. But I would say there's still an open book on foreign policy.
BROWN: As we know, President Obama has invited Professor Gates...
GIULIANI: Right.
BROWN: ... and Sergeant Crowley to the White House for this beer summit that is getting more attention than you can imagine.
What do you think about how he's handled the situation more generally? GIULIANI: Somebody said to me today the last thing in the world this dispute needs is alcohol.
BROWN: Yes, got a fair point.
(LAUGHTER)
GIULIANI: They had enough of a problem before.
But the reality is, I think he's trying to make the best of a bad situation, both a bad situation that happened there. And he kind of made a terrible mistake.
BROWN: And about the situation politically.
GIULIANI: He made a terrible mistake, which I'm sure he knows, he warned himself about. During that press conference, he said, I don't know much about the facts.
OK. Now you keep quiet.
BROWN: Right.
GIULIANI: That was usually a signal to me, shut my big mouth. And then he went on to take a very strong position on something he didn't know about. He had just said he didn't know about it.
I think he tried to fix it the next day. I think he's trying to fix it now, and I think that's all to the good.
BROWN: Some prominent conservatives have questioned, are still questioning whether or not President Obama was born in this country.
(LAUGHTER)
GIULIANI: Right.
BROWN: That's your response?
GIULIANI: Well, we have got better things to do than that.
BROWN: But these are not the far, far right of the party. These are prominent mainstream conservatives, members of Congress.
GIULIANI: Right.
Look, we all have to deal with disagreements within our political parties. The Democrats have Blue Dog Democrats and Democrats who want to have even more national health care than exists now, and Democrats who want to have socialized medicine.
BROWN: But is that a fair comparison between people who are questioning whether this president is legitimate?
GIULIANI: Look what they did to President Bush. My gosh. They were going to impeach him. They were going to put him in jail. We had members of Congress who wanted to put President Bush in jail. We have got people who still want to put Dick Cheney in jail. So, you get that kind of overreaction in parties.
I think it's a false issue. I don't only think it's a false issue. I have actually seen a birth certificate that kind of satisfies me that he was born in the United States. And I don't get the issue. I don't know why they're pushing it as far as they are.
And it does -- the fair point is, it does obscure the message. There are important messages that conservative Republicans have to deliver to this country about overspending, reducing the size of the military. Those are the things we should be talking about.
BROWN: Is that the struggle the Republican Party is having right now, is that there are no clear leaders and so the people who are breaking through, the message that's breaking through are the far fringes of the party?
GIULIANI: It's a shame, because there are big issues. President Obama has pushed things very hard, very hard in favor of big government.
One of the things my party can contribute is being a discipline, being a check on that, being somebody that can stand up and say let's not go so far with this big government thing. It's going to end up creating inflation. It's going to end up creating disproportion, in terms of the power of the government against the private sector.
That's what we should be battling. We have got plenty of philosophical issues to battle about. To pick false issues like that hurts us more than it hurts the other side.
BROWN: Let me ask you about Sarah Palin, everyone's favorite subject.
GIULIANI: Yes.
BROWN: She resigned as governor of Alaska this weekend. What do you think that did for her political future? Did it help her or did it hurt her?
GIULIANI: Well, she's a very hard political figure to analyze.
I told you earlier that I took her to the Yankee game. My wife, Judith, and I took her to the Yankee game a couple weeks ago, the one that created that controversy.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: With David Letterman.
GIULIANI: With David Letterman.
And I was a little concerned about taking her there. I wasn't sure I did the right thing, taking her to the Bronx, big Democratic territory.
BROWN: Right.
GIULIANI: It is Yankee territory. And baseball is more important than anything else. And sometimes they just get annoyed at politicians.
She had a great reception. I don't know if they were Democrats or Republicans. They all wanted to take a picture with her. They all wanted to get her autograph. They all wanted to talk to her.
She -- it sparks a tremendous amount of interest. So, there is something unusual there. And we will have to see. She gets now a year, a year-and-a-half before you get to actual presidential politics to create whatever it is that she wants people to think about Sarah Palin. And we will have to see what she does.
BROWN: Do you think she has what it takes to be president?
GIULIANI: I thought she did when I campaigned for her. I got to meet her right after John selected her. I gave the speech right before her at the Republican Convention, when she came out and gave that great speech. I campaigned with her and with her husband.
Yes, I believe -- I thought she was a really good governor of the state. I thought she had done a really good job. I think that she -- there are a lot of questions because of all of the things that have been raised. But she has a chance to answer them all. And I think she's a real presence in our party.
BROWN: We will be watching. Mayor Rudy Giuliani, great to have you here.
GIULIANI: OK. Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: Thanks so much.
GIULIANI: Thanks a lot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker Bernie Madoff also with the jailhouse interview. Find out how the billionaire swindler is spending time behind bars.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He is a bit of a celebrity. As a matter of fact, people are asking him for autographs, which he, offered, is not giving.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: How is he spending his time? Did he tell you? What does he do all day?
GIULIANI: Yes. He exercises. He walks around the track. He spends a lot of time reading. And he's got a job. He's in the sign factory, if you want to call it that, where he paints signs and clerks to make sure that signs get painted. It's a long way from Wall Street.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Now a look at some of the other must-see stories of the day. Erica Hill is here with tonight's "Download."
Hey, Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Boy, Campbell, another day, another revelation about Dr. Conrad Murray, Michael Jackson's personal physician.
Tonight, more information about Dr. Murray's personal situation. The Associated Press reporting Murray is still more than $100,000 behind on his mortgage and could face foreclosure. Yesterday, federal agents and police searched Murray's Las Vegas home, along with his office in connection with Jackson's death.
Now, you may recall CNN has reported several types Murray had more than $400,000 in judgments for debts and liens against him when he decided to leave his practice and go to work for the pop star in May. His salary there, $150,000 a month with Michael Jackson. We're going to have more for you on the developments in the Jackson case today shortly.
Meantime, the wife and mother of suspected terrorists arrested in North Carolina tells CNN she was tricked by the FBI. Her husband, Robert (sic) Boyd, and two sons are among eight people accused of plotting violent jihad overseas. Sabrina Boyd accuses federal agents of making up a story about her family being involved a car wreck to get her out of her house, so they could in fact search it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SABRINA BOYD, WIFE OF DANIEL PATRICK BOYD: When we got to the hospital, they brought us around back, separated us, handcuffed us, including my 8-month-old pregnant daughter-in-law, and were very rude, and then told us: They're not dying. They're detained. And you better cooperate with us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The FBI is not commenting. Boyd denies her family did anything wrong.
The death penalty could be sought for a man now charged with murder on a horrific attack on two Seattle women, one of whom was the sister of a Broadway performer. The suspect is 23-year-old Isaiah Kalebu, who's already under investigation in a deadly fire. Prosecutors say he repeatedly stabbed and sexually assaulted Teresa Butz and her 36-year- old partner, who survived. Butz is the sister of actor Norbert Leo Butz. She escaped, but collapsed and then died in the street.
The one-day losing streak for Olympic champion swimmer Michael Phelps, it is over. Phelps swam his way back to glory today, setting a world record in Rome during the 200-meter butterfly. Yesterday, Phelps suffered his first loss in four years to a rival sporting a high-tech swimsuit, which some thought gave him an unfair leg up. Phelps, though, didn't need that polyurethane swimwear. He did just fine without it, even surpassing the legendary Mark Spitz by capturing now his 34th world record.
And there's his mom. I love his mom. She's so cute.
BROWN: Oh, she is cute.
I'm very curious about what makes the swimsuit so special.
HILL: You glide a little bit easier.
BROWN: Oh. Oh. And that's all the difference in the world.
HILL: They're going to ban it, though.
BROWN: Erica Hill for us -- thanks, Erica.
Tonight's newsmaker, music star Will.i.am. He for the first time talks about music he recorded with Michael Jackson before his death.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WILL.I.AM: I would love -- I would love for it to come out. The things that we came up with were spectacular.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: You know that unmistakable sound, the Black Eyed Peas doing "Boom Boom Pow." The band's front man, Will.i.am., is another of tonight's newsmakers.
I spoke with him earlier about the music he was making with Michael Jackson, music that's never been heard before. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, Will, I understand you and Michael were collaborating together just before he passed away. Tell us what you were working on.
WILL.I.AM: I had the pleasure and the blessing to work with Michael Jackson. For the last say around two-and-a-half years, I have been communicating with Michael Jackson, talking all the time on the phone.
And I flew out and worked with him in Ireland, came back to America, and we did "Thriller 25."
BROWN: So, was there a new album that you guys were working on?
WILL.I.AM: We were just making music. We fiddled with a bunch of different ideas and recorded a bunch of things. I'm not -- it was never like, let's record an album. It was, let's have fun and make music.
BROWN: Are we ever going to get to hear it?
WILL.I.AM: I would love -- I would love for it to come out. The things that we came up with were spectacular.
Some of it is unfinished. We never got a chance to really finish the tunes.
BROWN: Are you still working on it or can you still work on it?
WILL.I.AM: Without him, it would be impossible. You know, our work relationship was real unique. There's a lot of producers in the past that took advantage of Michael Jackson, how big he was.
And I didn't want to go about it that way. I would like to figure out how to go about releasing some of the unfinished things, songs that we started to work on. Like, when James Brown passed away, he and I went into the studio to record a song. It was called, "I Will Miss You," and that was never complete. And for that song to come out now would be -- you know, would be something else.
BROWN: So, you don't have the tracks. You don't own the tracks?
WILL.I.AM: I have the tracks in my hard drive. But I don't -- he would take his vocals and I would take my music. So, I didn't record his vocals on his hard drive. And on my hard drive, I kept the music.
BROWN: It would be great if you could work with the family and bring it together and put it all together, don't you think?
WILL.I.AM: That would be -- you know, that would be wonderful.
But, you know, I don't want to -- you know, I didn't want to -- I didn't want it to be about money or profit earlier, and I don't want to do that now. So, you know, if they come to me and want to do it, I will be thrilled. But I don't want to -- that's not what I'm about. I don't want to go and try to take advantage of a situation, you know?
BROWN: Right.
WILL.I.AM: If it comes out, it would be awesome. I don't want to force it to come out, you know?
If I could marry the two hard drives with his vocals and my music, that would be great as well.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Will.i.am there.
From the musical legacy of Michael Jackson to his literal legacy -- what becomes of his estate? There are some new developments today.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR: There are about 500 million reasons why Michael Jackson's mother is battling with the executors of his estate. And like everything related to the late King of Pop, becoming courtroom showdown is making a lot of headlines. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LOU DOBBS, CNN ANCHOR: New developments tonight in the battle over Michael Jackson's estate. Jackson's mother, Katherine, is now demanding she be put back in control of that estate. She was granted custody of Jackson's three children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She served subpoenas, seeking access to Michael's contracts, including the "This is It" tour agreement with AEG. The administrators say Michael wanted them to control his estate and that Katherine cannot now rewrite his will.
TED ROWLANDS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Bottom line here is that all is not well in this camp, compared to, you know, with the other executors. And the judge is going to have to figure this out.
There is an open spot there. Remember there was a third executor that refused himself. What they're saying is put Katherine Jackson in there. She's the only real advocate for Michael.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So who's going to win the battle for Michael's millions. Joining me from Los Angeles tonight, Jim Moret, former CNN anchor and chief correspondent for "Inside Edition." Here in New York, entertainment attorney James Walker, and CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin, joining us as always.
Jeff, what's going on? Is this all about the money?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I think it's a shot across the bow by Katherine and to say, you know, I want to be a presence here. I want to be part of the negotiations. Frankly, I don't think she has a legal leg to stand on. Michael could have named her executor. He didn't. He named someone else. I think that's really the end of the story.
BROWN: Is there a realistic chance that she will win this, be named an executor that's brought into the loop?
TOOBIN: I don't think there's any chance she'll be named an executor. I think she's looking for negotiating leverage. This is going to be a long process. It's a very complicated estate.
I think she's just saying look, I am going to be a presence here. My lawyers are going to be aggressive. But I don't think there's going to be any decision in court next week. The executors just now are trying to figure out the extent of the estate. I don't think there's any way anything can be resolved any time soon.
BROWN: Jim, you know, we hear a lot from the family. But we don't hear anything frankly from the executors themselves. And these two guys, Branca and McClain, they're Hollywood bigwigs. They're known names, right?
JIM MORET, CHIEF CORRESPONDENT, "INSIDE EDITION": Absolutely. As a matter of fact, John Branca is the one who helped Michael Jackson acquire the Beatles catalog. He then helped him negotiate with Sony for the ATV catalog.
I agree with Jeff Toobin completely on this. I don't think Katherine has a leg to stand on. I know that Katherine's side is making a big deal about the will not being notarized. It doesn't have to be notarized in California.
As a matter of fact, in this will, Michael Jackson signed. He initialed virtually every clause, specifically naming these two, originally three executives (ph) and then specifically stating if one of these executors falls out, you don't replace that person. So Katherine can't come in and say I should be that third person. There's just no basis for it.
BROWN: James, you worked with the family in the past and you actually think they're making a big mistake here.
JAMES WALKER, ENTERTAINMENT ATTORNEY: I think this whole process, Campbell, has been handled wrong. For once, I kind of agree with Jeff. It's probably landmark.
But what I think, Campbell, is the family should have met with the executors, met with the attorneys. You have a 78, 79-year-old woman. Do you really think if this goes the full length, Jeffrey, do you really think the emotional toll will not wear her down?
If I'm advising her from a law (ph) standpoint, I'm saying, let's put this to bed. There are millions of dollars coming. Let's sit down with John Branca, John McClain, the attorneys, and figure out how we work this out because at the end of the day, the attorneys representing the trust they don't have a body, they have an estate, a document, a trust.
BROWN: Right.
WALKER: The attorneys representing the Jackson family they have human beings who are going to take the emotional stress of this case and get worn down.
TOOBIN: And, by the way, Katherine is also responsible for these young children.
BROWN: Right.
WALKER: Exactly.
TOOBIN: So it's not like she doesn't have a lot on her plate much less a 79-year-old woman.
WALKER: And one thing --
BROWN: All right. Hold on. I just don't want to run out of time on this. And I want to go to Jim because there are also some new details today about the day that Michael died, Jim.
This is coming from his personal chef, who did an interview with "The Associated Press." She, of course, was there the day he died in the house. And she says that Dr. Murray came running down the steps, screaming for Michael's son, Prince, to come, and then everyone in the house then gathered and started to pray. It's a very different story than the one that we originally heard from the doctor, isn't it?
MORET: It's very different. I'll tell you what's disturbing about it. The doctor called 911 at 12:22. According to the chef, the doctor ran downstairs between 12:05 and 12:10 screaming for Prince. He normally would come down according to the chef for breakfast between 9:00 and 9:30 carrying oxygen tanks bringing breakfast up to Michael Jackson. He didn't on that morning.
So there's now a timeline that extends from 12:22 back 3 1/2 hours, and I'm sure investigators are looking into exactly what happened. Was Michael Jackson in some distress? Was he dead? Was the doctor trying to revive him? A lot of questions tonight about what that doctor was doing.
BROWN: Very quickly, James.
WALKER: But Jim, I would interject. She's also shopping a book deal, so let's be careful. The press also reported that she's doing a cookbook "Fit for a King" or something. So I don't know if I want to totally rely on her timeline.
BROWN: OK. And I'm glad you got that part in.
WALKER: You know, I want to make that clear that I don't know if we can believe the story.
BROWN: All right. A lot -- a lot still to come on this for sure. James Walker, Jim Moret, of course, and Jeff Toobin joining us. Thanks, guys.
BROWN: It's a long way from Wall Street to Bernie Madoff's new home behind bars. Tonight, hear for the first time what his life in prison is like including his new prison job. We're going to have the jailhouse interview when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, we're getting brand new insights into convicted Ponzi scheme mastermind Bernie Madoff. There are also new developments involving his wife.
Today, a court appointed trustee sued Ruth Madoff for nearly $45 million alleging she received that much in fraudulent transfers from her husband and asking that that money go to Madoff's victims.
Her lawyers called the lawsuit perplexing and unwarranted. Madoff himself now serving a 150-year prison sentence for bilking investors out of at least $13 billion.
An attorney for some of his other victims spent 4 1/2 hours interviewing Madoff yesterday. That lawyer, Joseph Cotchett, is tonight' newsmaker. I spoke with him about a pretty remarkable meeting he had.
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BROWN: First off, let me ask you just how did he seem to you? How did Madoff seem? He must be a bit of a celebrity in there.
JOSEPH COTCHETT, LAWYER FOR PONZI SCHEME VICTIMS: He is a bit of a celebrity. As a matter of fact, people are asking him for autographs which he offered, is not giving.
BROWN: How is he spending his time? Did he tell you? What does he do all day?
COTCHETT: Yes. He exercises. He walks around the track. He spends a lot of time reading and he's got a job. He's in the sign factory, if you want to call it that, where he paints signs and clerks to make sure that signs get painted. It's a long way from Wall Street.
BROWN: Yes, I'll say. So why did he do it? I mean, what explanation did he give you for this?
COTCHETT: There's only one word that comes to mind, as I sat with him for 4 1/2 hours. It's called greed.
You know, the guy just wanted to be bigger than the next. He's a very charming guy. He's off the streets of Brooklyn. He's no dummy. You can see how people put trust in him.
At the end of 4 1/2 hours, you're a little skeptical, obviously, about all of his answers. But he's a charming guy. His hair is cut short. He's 71 years old. He is adapting to prison life and I'm sure he'll adapt well.
BROWN: Madoff described his scam to you, and it wasn't exactly a sophisticated operation, was it?
COTCHETT: It was not only not sophisticated. It is amazing how simple it was.
BROWN: He was actually pretty surprised that it wasn't figured out by authorities sooner, that he didn't get caught sooner.
COTCHETT: He thought, in the year 2000-2001, to use the colloquial phrase, the gig was up. In 2002, he was involved with a situation that had to be audited where he thought for sure he might get caught.
In 2005, the SEC sat down with him for a full day and grilled him. And he told me that when he left that meeting, late in the afternoon, four, five, whatever it was, he thought the following morning he would -- excuse me, the following Monday he would be closed down. That was in 2005.
I asked him, I said Bernie, how much money did you have essentially in your fund at that time? I said, was it about $16 billion or $18 billion by our calculation? No. He said no, it was probably closer to 20.
So in 2005, 2006, when he sat down with the SEC, he thought on Monday, he would be closed down. Had he been closed down, $20 billion would have been saved of investors' money.
BROWN: So how do you think he was able to fool the feds for so long?
COTCHETT: Truly, I don't want to use the word incompetent, but it's absolutely clear to me that people never dug to the next level and the next level was not very deep by his own admission.
BROWN: It's just stunning. Stunning.
COTCHETT: It's beyond stunning. It's beyond stunning to think how simple the scam was. When I left after 4 1/2 hours, my partner and I, Nancy Fineman (ph), said to me, can you believe it? I said, frankly, it's a book worth being read by every regulator in the United States and outside of this country.
BROWN: Let me ask you this.
COTCHETT: Sure.
BROWN: Did he, in your conversations, express any remorse? I mean, does he grasp how many people he's hurt?
COTCHETT: The final -- one of the final questions was asked by my partner, Nancy Fineman (ph), she looked over and she said, "Bernie, what do you want me to tell when I leave here today, when I get on a plane in Raleigh and leave North Carolina, what do you want me to tell the people I represent?"
There was a silence for a moment. He leaned over in his chair and he said to her, tell them how sorry I am.
Now, those are mere words, Campbell. Whether or not, in this guy's heart he's sorry, one thing is for sure. One thing is for sure, he's not happy in the circumstances he now finds himself, whether or not that translates into a contrition and/or true sorriness. But sorry is immaterial because sorry is s not going to get any money back for these victims.
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BROWN: Joseph Cotchett, an attorney for victims of Bernie Madoff on his prison meeting with the man at the center of it all.
"LARRY KING LIVE" coming up at the top of the hour as always. And here is Larry King himself out in L.A. to tell us what he's working on this evening -- Larry.
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": He, himself, Campbell. It's the controversy that won't go away. The arrest of Harvard professor Henry Louis Gates. Is any good coming from this debate over who's right, who's wrong, who's what?
We'll let you in on the stunning conversation, by the way, Michael Jackson had with a very good friend about the valley of death. Deepak Chopra is here to tell us what he now knows in hindsight about those pop star's remarks. It's all next on "LARRY KING LIVE" -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Larry. We'll see you in a few.
So those foot-dragging Blue Dog Democrats in the House quit dragging their feet today on health care reform. So it ought to be clear sailing now. No? Hmm, stay with us.
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BROWN: President Obama took on a new role as salesman in chief today pushing his health care plan to town halls in North Carolina in Virginia. Not so new.
Well, actually he's been at it for many days now. Meanwhile on Capitol Hill, a headline-making deal was reached that could bring health care reform one step closer.
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WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Key members of the Blue Dogs, those fiscally conservative moderate to House Democrats say they've reached a deal with the Democratic leadership. Most of them are very liberal on the health care reform bill. If the Blue Dogs are getting on board, will Republicans soon follow?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president called this good news. How significant is the deal and what are the details?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, it's a pretty big deal in the House. It means that if this deal holds, every House committee will have passed the bill before the August recess.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Aides here know they have a message problem selling health care reform. So the president hit the road again today with a retooled pitch.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We will not sign a bill that isn't right for the American people.
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BROWN: So is health care the issue that could make or break this early stage of the Obama presidency?
Joining me from Washington, CNN senior political correspondent Candy Crowley, and Republican strategist Bay Buchanan from D.C. as well. Also with me here in New York, Christie Hefner. She is the former CEO of Playboy Enterprises, a long-time board member of the largest private hospital in Illinois. And Steve Kornacki, columnist for the "New York Observer" with me as well.
Candy, let me start with you. What is the latest on this deal? I mean, it seems like a good thing on the surface for Democrats but in a way it could well be a setback for the president. Explain it.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, because, yes, it does enable House Democrats to try to move this thing out of committee. And that means before they go to recess they have a bill outside the committee process ready for the floor, nearly ready for the floor. But what did they give up? They gave up a vote on the floor before they go home.
So the Blue Dogs, the conservative Democrats said to the leadership you have to promise not to have a vote until the fall. And, you know, time is not on a bills side. The longer a bill is out there, the more it becomes a pinata. And that is exactly what the White House didn't want.
The president pressed and pressed and pressed to get this done before they left on August recess. And that's because, you know, everybody picks it apart then. The longer you have it out there the worse it is for the bill.
BROWN: And Republicans, this is exactly what they wanted, Bay. I mean, they've said very publicly that delaying this vote if they were able to delay this vote, that it would break the president. Did the Blue Dog Democrats hand Republicans a win here?
BAY BUCHANAN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, there's no question this is exactly what Republicans were hoping for. And the real reason for most Republicans is so that this bill could get out. And we could take a look at it. The American people can see it and then get back to their congressmen and tell them what they think about it. Because we feel the more the American people know about it, there is no question we will not go down this route that's been proposed by Barack Obama.
BROWN: And, Steve, to Bay's point, I mean, liberals are worried this is it. It is dead now. People -- congressmen go home to their districts. There are ads everywhere touting what a disaster this plan is going to be and it's over.
STEVE KORNACKI, NEW YORK OBSERVER: Well, the timing is not ideal for the Democrats. It's not ideal for Obama right now. But we live in this world, the political analysis, where it's dominated by rearview mirror thinking. And the Republican angle on this is right out of 1993 and 1994. This is how you kill health care. You delay it, you stall it. You say, oh no, we don't want to go down this road.
I think times are a little different in 2009 than they were in 1994. I think the mood of the public is a lot different, and they're not going to tolerate absolutely rejecting health care and saying you know what? We're not going to go down this road because Obama has started to make this point more forcefully in the last week.
OK, you're closing my plan, you don't want to do it, here's the alternative. Costs are going to double. You know, the deficit is going to soar and more people are going to go uninsured.
We've been doing this for 60 years in this country. We've been talking about it with no action. Do you want to do it or not? It's time to choose. And I think at the end that is going to weigh in.
BROWN: Christie, you have a truly unique perspective on this, I think in a way as a businesswoman. I mean, is this something from what we know of it, and granted the details are very much fluid at this stage, that businesses in your view should get behind or something that they should be afraid of, because you hear two different points of view?
CHRISTIE HEFNER, FMR. CEO, PLAYBOY ENTERPRISES: I think business is behind it. I mean, it's not I think worth ignoring that everybody from Wal-Mart to Abbott (ph) is actually engaged in this conversation. I think what's different also from back when the Clintons tried it is every stakeholder is staying at the table. They are not outside the tent criticizing it. And that, combined with the fact that the public so clearly sees that what we have is broken I think is going to make it a different dynamic.
BROWN: But here's the big hurdle. And the president has been out there talking about this every day. And yet, look at this new poll just out from "Time" magazine today. Americans so pessimistic about the end result if it happens. Sixty-two percent says it's likely to raise costs. Sixty-five say it will make everything more complicated. Fifty-six percent say it means less freedom to choose doctors and coverage.
I mean, Candy, what does that say to you? I mean, he has been talking nonstop about this.
CROWLEY: It says to me they need to at least tweak the message. Up until now, the conversation has been about saving costs. And if you look inside those numbers, those who have health insurance, and let's remember that's the vast majority of Americans, those who have health insurance are much more likely to say all those things. So what the president has done today, is to start talking about no, you will still be free to choose your doctor. You will still be free to have the health care plan you want.
Now Republicans differ with that analysis of what's going on. But nonetheless, he's now talking in sort of specific terms, here's what is in it for you because it is true that while people in general think, yes, let's reform health care, you get down to these details and that's when everybody begins to back off, particularly those who have insurance.
BROWN: Christie, what do you think?
HEFNER: Well, I think understandability should be a goal here. And I don't think that the administration has done as good a job as it needs to. But I also think that this is not going to be a situation where the work ends when legislation is passed. We're talking about trying to transform a system that we're all a part of from a focus on illness to a focus on wellness, and that's going to require everybody to be transformed.
BUCHANAN: And, Campbell --
BROWN: Quickly, Bay, go ahead.
BUCHANAN: Nearly 90 percent of the country has insurance and most of them are very happy with it. And the problem with Barack Obama is he keeps saying things. He sells this deal as cutting costs, and that nothing is going to change and keep your plan. And that simply is not the case. And as a result the American people have gotten this message. They're very concerned. They like what they have.
BROWN: All right.
BUCHANAN: And 43 percent no longer trust the president.
BROWN: I got to give Steve the last word.
KORNACKI: And the Republicans were opposing this and want to kill Barack Obama with it are going to keep saying things about oh, it's socialized medicine, it's a government takeover, it's rationing. Completely made up, fabricated out of whole cloth. You know, if you want to sit there and make a charge about Obama, come out with something substance on the Republican side because there's nothing but "no."
BROWN: And we've got to end it there, guys. I'm sorry we're totally out of time. Candy, Bay in Washington, and Christie and Steve Kornacki here with me in New York, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
BUCHANAN: Sure.
BROWN: Earlier tonight I spoke with Rudy Giuliani. As you saw, that interview covered a lot of ground. We have more and more questions, though, for the mayor, whether or not he's going to make another run for the White House. We'll have his answer when we come back.
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BROWN: And now the money question for Rudy Giuliani. What comes next? Another presidential campaign? What about a run for governor here in the state of New York?
The race happening right around the corner in 2010. Is he considering either of those offices? Here's his answer.
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RUDY GIULIANI (R), FORMER NEW YORK MAYOR: I don't know, we'll see. I mean, I'm very interested in all these issues. I've talked about them whether I'm going to run or not going to run.
You do gain a certain amount of experience from having been U.S. attorney, mayor and then a presidential candidate. And if I run again, we'll see. We'll have to decide that sometime at the end of this year. See about governor.
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BROWN: Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani joining us tonight.
That is it for us tonight. Thanks for joining us everybody. We will see you right back here tomorrow night. "LARRY KING LIVE" coming up right after this.
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LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE" (voice-over): Tonight, the arrest seen around the world, the professor and the police. Is the controversy uniting or dividing Americans? The witness whose 911 call started it all breaks her silence.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would hope that people would learn not to judge others and to really base it on facts.
KING: Plus, Michael Jackson and the valley of death. The man he asked about going there is here. Deepak Chopra reveals a haunting conversation with the King of Pop.
And then Michael's personal physician Dr. Conrad Murray had huge debts. Did he do anything Jackson wanted in return for a big monthly paycheck? It's all next on LARRY KING LIVE.
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