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Nancy Grace
Pregnant Woman Found Dead, Her Baby Missing; Idaho Police Still Searching for Missing Boy Robert Manwill
Aired July 29, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: Tonight, a beautiful, young Massachusetts mom, eight months pregnant and only days away from delivering her fourth child, vanishes, her whereabouts unknown to family and friends. But just over 72 hours later, she`s found brutally murdered inside a bedroom closet, her unborn child surgically cut out from her womb. Tonight, police on high alert not only for the vulnerable infant but the mom`s killer, presumably posing as the newborn`s parents.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman about eight months pregnant has been found dead wrapped in her bedding inside a closet at her apartment in Massachusetts. Police say her fetus was cut out of her womb. They`re looking for whoever killed 23-year-old Darlene Hayes and for the newborn. Investigators say the baby might have survived and would need immediate medical attention to stay alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it`s horrible, yes. Looks like a revengeful (ph) crime out there, yes. It`s horrible.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: An intense search just outside of Boston for a tiny baby brutally cut from her mother`s womb.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The terrible tragedy has the family joining police in pleading for any information.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That child needs medical attention, OK? Have a heart. Just -- I don`t care if you just drop the kid off at a hospital...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the fetus isn`t alive, you know, we`d like to know, as well, so as we put Darlene to rest, we can also put the baby to rest with her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: And tonight, to Boise, Idaho, and the desperate search for a little 8-year-old boy. What happened to Robert Manwill?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robert`s an 8-year-old little guy who needs our help. He`s the main priority for not only the Boise police department but dozens of investigators who brought their expertise from all around the Treasure (ph) Valley, and indeed, from all around the country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Robert Manwill`s been missing now for four (ph) days.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: According to police, the family last saw the 8- year-old around 9:30 PM Friday night. Police say they`ve conducted several interviews and still have no leads.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This investigation continues to go in many different directions. And because of the very nature of police investigations, right now we`re not prepared to discuss the leads the investigators are taking.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Information from police is being released only through statements during scheduled press conferences.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why (INAUDIBLE) questions on camera?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While they would not answer questions on camera, Boise police say they are following more than a hundred leads in this case, and there is no evidence to indicate Robert has left the area. That leaves his family continuing to reach out to this community.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is Robert`s bear that has always been close to his heart, and our family would love to reunite them together. Please do what you can to help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Good evening. I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace tonight. A beautiful young Massachusetts mom, eight months pregnant, brutally murdered, her unborn child surgically cut from her womb. Police on high alert for Mommy`s killer and the infant girl she named Sheila Marie.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say 23-year-old Darlene Haynes was last seen Thursday, eight months pregnant. Money, the landlord, investigating a heavy smell, found Haynes`s body in a bedroom closet, wrapped in blankets. Investigators say the mother`s fetus was cut out of her and may still be alive.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Haynes was apparently dead a few days before her body was found. An autopsy shows she suffered head injuries, though the exact cause of death has not been determined.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think it was planned out. No one -- no one heard her cry. No one heard anything? I mean, someone took that baby. I mean, I just don`t know who it could have been or why they were doing it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She`s so kind-hearted, though, that she would let anybody into her home. Anybody.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I looked down, I seen a green Ford come up. And I guess from what I`ve heard, they pulled in the driveway but the visor was halfway down, so we couldn`t really tell if it was a male or female driving the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darlene Haynes, eight months pregnant -- her landlord found her mutilated body wrapped in bedding, stashed in a bedroom closet, her womb stripped. Who would steal her baby?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Family tragedies don`t get much worse than this one. And I want to go right to Joe Dwinnell, reporter/editor at "The Boston Herald." What is the latest on this baby?
JOE DWINNELL, "BOSTON HERALD": Well, it`s a frantic search for the baby. Time is of the essence. They have to find this baby. We`re told it could lead to quick infections. The child needs professional care immediately. That`s the focus of this investigation tonight.
LALAMA: John DePetro, morning anchor at WPRO radio, what are you hearing? Tell us what exactly the police can do to exact a search, to make it happen to find this baby.
JOHN DEPETRO, WPRO RADIO (via telephone): Well, Pat, everyone is looking, and you know, praying that this child is somehow alive and is given over to authorities. But at the same time, there`s so many unanswered questions of a young woman that obviously was taken advantage of in so many different ways, and then someone committed this brutal act against her.
LALAMA: Mark (SIC) Majeski, former NYPD detective, from Majeski Associates, for law enforcement, what makes this particular search so horrific? Not just from the emotional standpoint, but what do you have to do? You`ve got to act quickly.
BILL MAJESKI, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Yes, there`s a whole host of things that they do. Incidentally, it`s Bill Majeski. But yes, I`m sure the police at this point in time are trying to create a timeline, the last time that she was seen by some neighbors, and then go forward from there.
In addition to that, it`s a question of doing the search of the area. They`re canvassing the entire area. They`re talking to people, who saw what. You saw the gentleman there before saying something about a green car pulling up.
I`m sure the police are gathering all types of information, bits of information, and little by little, they`re putting it together and creating an image. It`s like putting a jigsaw puzzle together. They`re getting little bits of information and creating a picture to then search with.
LALAMA: Oh! With the clock ticking. Dr. Marty...
MAJESKI: It`s -- it`s...
LALAMA: Go ahead.
MAJESKI: It`s a terrible situation, clearly, but the thing is that the medical examiner will be able to determine how this child was removed, whether it was done viciously, whether it was done more with a medical fashion. And that will also put a clock on the child and how the child will survive going forward...
LALAMA: OK. Dr. Marty...
MAJESKI: ... depending on how she was removed.
LALAMA: Dr. Marty Makary, physician and professor of public health at Johns Hopkins -- you know, it was just established yesterday that the fetus was cut out. Now, the person who did this, hopefully, took the child to get some sort of treatment. But we, the public, are just learning this yesterday. That doesn`t help, does it.
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, not necessarily. You know, the care of a C-section is really the care for the mother. Taking a child out is not that complicated. Remember, even cavemen delivered babies, and you simply cut and clamp the umbilical cord. But remember, the survival, even at 4 months, is somewhere around 50/50, with all of our neo-natal intensive care units. When you get further out, certainly at 8 months, which is where we believe she was at, the survival goes way up.
LALAMA: Oh!
MAKARY: So we have very good reason to believe that she may be out there.
LALAMA: Oh, let`s hope so! Karl Whitney, we are really honored to have you. You are the uncle of murder victim Darlene Haynes. Thank you so much for being with us, and I`m so sorry for the tragedy upon your family. What can you tell us? Does the family have any clue what went wrong?
KARL WHITNEY, UNCLE OF MURDERED WOMAN (via telephone): At this point in time, no. Nobody -- Darlene had talked with her grandmother about 7:30 Thursday evening, and that was the last time anybody had heard from her.
LALAMA: And what did she seem like at the time, Karl? Was she happy? Did she say anything of significance that you remember, that you recall the family members know of?
WHITNEY: No. She was talking about because she was visiting with her grandmother and her other two girls and she just hadn`t been feeling well because of the heat and everything around here, and you know, being pregnant and that`s how long -- she was just having trouble getting around.
LALAMA: I can`t even imagine what this must be like for your family. There was a report that she had, I believe, texted someone that she was sharing wine coolers with a friend? Is that just from nowhere, or is there some significance to that?
WHITNEY: I know nothing about that.
LALAMA: You didn`t hear anything about that.
WHITNEY: As far as I know, Darlene didn`t partake of any type of drugs or do any kind of alcohol.
LALAMA: Well, but she could have been just socializing with someone who did. So I`m just wondering...
(CROSSTALK)
WHITNEY: ... but herself, that wasn`t something she -- that I was aware of she would be doing.
LALAMA: I want to take a caller. Tammy from Massachusetts. Good evening, Tammy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, my heart goes out to that uncle and to her family.
LALAMA: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; This isn`t that far from where I live, either. And I just wanted to know, since whoever did this is a monster, basically, what charges would they face? Because I know a lot of states don`t consider the fetus to be a human being. When it`s inside the mother, it`s a fetus. But in effect, she was not, like, four months pregnant. She`s eight months pregnant. That child could be alive right now.
LALAMA: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And if it dies, will that person be charged for murder or will they still consider it a fetus and the person would not get as much of a sentence for that reason?
LALAMA: Well, that`s an excellent question. And Susan Moss, family law attorney, how do we answer that? Is it a state-by-state decision?
SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Well, not only is it a state-by- state decision, but it`s very fact-specific. If the child came out and breathed air and was alive after being taken from the womb, then it absolutely is a person. And absolutely, the person who did this will be charged with two murder ones.
LALAMA: Penny Douglas Furr, defense attorney, let me ask you, from your perspective, what do you do with a case like this, from a defense attorney`s point of view?
PENNY DOUGLAS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, if I`m a defense attorney and I represent the boyfriend, I would not allow him to talk to anyone because he will be the first suspect, especially since there`s a restraining order and he had a history of violence against this woman.
LALAMA: Yes, and that`s an important thing. We`re definitely going to get into that. And obviously, law enforcement looks directly at immediate family and friends first. And we`re going to talk about -- Roberto Rodriguez is his name, and he is a former boyfriend and there is a restraining order.
Before we go into that, let`s take another call. And I believe It`s Amy in Tennessee. Good evening, Amy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thanks so much for taking my call.
LALAMA: My pleasure. Your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My thoughts go out to the family of this poor woman. But my question is, is there any way that they would know if this woman was alive when the baby was taken or if she was murdered before?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, good question, and it`s a hard one to ask. I was mulling it over myself, and we`ll go to Dr. Marty Makary for that. I suspect that the examiners will be able to figure out if it`s something that this person tried to do, horrifically, before the mother`s death. Explain that to us.
MAKARY: Pat, there`s basically a window of time where that baby can live after the mother has died. It would normally be about a minute or so if the mother died completely. If she was unconscious or in something similar to a coma, she could have gone for hours -- the baby could have gone for hours in what is really a natural incubator.
LALAMA: Tonight: Are you Nancy`s number one fan? Send us an e-mail or iReport and tell us why. The best submissions will air on the show, and you could win an autographed copy of Nancy`s new novel, "The 11th Victim," plus a chance to win a trip to New York City to meet Nancy herself. Get your videocameras and e-mails ready and go to CNN.com/nancygrace.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A woman about eight months pregnant has been found dead wrapped in her bedding inside a closet at her apartment in Massachusetts.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The medical examiner determined the 8-month-old fetus had been removed from the body. The terrible tragedy has the family joining police in pleading for any information.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Turn yourself in, OK? You don`t want to turn yourself in, go ahead, keep running. The law`s going to catch up to you eventually, all right? That child needs medical attention, OK? Have a heart. Just -- I don`t care if you just drop the kid off at a hospital.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If the fetus isn`t alive, you know, we`d like to know, as well, so as we put Darlene to rest, we can also put the baby to rest with her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Investigators say the baby might have survived and would need immediate medical attention to stay alive. Haynes was apparently dead a few days before her body was found. An autopsy shows she suffered head injuries, though the exact cause of death has not been determined.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. Joe Dwinnell from "The Boston Herald", now, tell me -- kind of recap for us how this all transpired. We understand that the last she was seen was Thursday. Take us briefly up to now.
DWINNELL: Well, the landlord was told that they were smelling a foul odor on Monday at this apartment complex in Worcester. He went and investigated, and he found Darlene stuffed in a closet, wrapped in a comforter. And she had been killed. She was decomposing already, according to officials.
The medical examiner then did an autopsy, found out that she was bashed in the head and that her fetus was cut out of her stomach. We don`t know how it was cut out. And neighbors say they did hear some loud screaming on Thursday night. Now authorities are searching high and low, as quickly as they can. Is this child alive?
LALAMA: John DePetro, my understanding is that there isn`t a blood trail. How can that be?
DEPETRO: You know, that`s a good question, Pat. But I do have a question for Karl Whitney. And that is that the boyfriend, Roberto -- he made a comment that she ran with the wrong crowd. And there`s also reports that he was also supposed to be getting married...
LALAMA: Right.
DEPETRO: ... but it`s unclear if he`s the father of the child.
LALAMA: Right.
DEPETRO: And what did he mean by, She ran with the wrong crowd?
LALAMA: All right, that`s a good time to get into Roberto Rodriguez, who, by the way, is not -- I repeat, not -- a suspect. Now, he`s an ex- boyfriend. He is the father of another child. She also has two other children. And the baby, the newborn, for lack of a better term, I believe is also his. Now, can you clear that up for us, Karl?
WHITNEY: As far as I know, that Mr. Rodriguez is the father of the (INAUDIBLE) baby in question, and he is the father of the other daughter, Christina (ph).
LALAMA: OK. And then there are two other children who are in the custody of a grandmother or an aunt?
WHITNEY: Yes, there`s two other -- there`s two other girls, 5 years old and 3 years old, that are -- that her grandmother has court-ordered guardianship.
LALAMA: OK. All right. Now, let`s just make sure we understand Roberto Rodriguez, who is an ex-boyfriend, who is not a suspect, who, you just saw, seems visibly upset and pleads for the person to please bring that baby for help. OK, now, he does have a restraining order against him for an alleged assault that took place in June, and he does have a history. But he`s not considered a suspect.
But Karl, what did he mean when he said she ran with the wrong people? Is there someone that you, the family, might be thinking of? Without indicting anyone, do you have anybody in mind?
WHITNEY: At this point in time, no. Darlene had -- occasionally, like most young folks today, she`ll get into situations she wasn`t able to -- couldn`t see right away. And eventually, she would understand what`s going on and get away from it. And -- but who she were friends with and who she hung around with, we don`t really know.
LALAMA: It would be fair to say, Alan Ripka, defense attorney, that we are inclined to look at ex-boyfriends and ex-husbands and ex-whatevers, but he has not been named a suspect, but would you also tell him to lawyer up? What would you -- what would you advise him to do at this point?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s certainly the obligation of law enforcement to check out everyone, certainly ex-boyfriends. But if I was defending this person, I would definitely defend on the fact that there may be no physical evidence. There`s no witnesses. He has three other children with this woman...
LALAMA: Well, at least one other (INAUDIBLE)
RIPKA: At least we believe at least one, in which there`s been no prior history of any violence concerning that child. And it doesn`t make any sense to assume that he murdered this woman and took this child. This appears to be a crime in which someone who wanted that baby, and a wannabe parent who couldn`t have their own children should be the ones who are the suspects.
LALAMA: OK. And Susan Moss, you know, again, we can`t indict this man. We don`t know. What are the other options here?
MOSS: Oh, there may be other options, but they probably are fantasy. This guy has more crimes than I have rhymes! Of course you`re going to look at him! He`s beaten her up before! He`s got crime -- crimes down the list (ph) of my arm! It`s insane! He`s the number one suspect!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was up on the third floor because of the restraining order, and I looked down, I seen a green Ford come up. And I guess from what I`ve heard, they pulled in the driveway. But the visor was halfway down, so we couldn`t really tell if it was a male or female driving the car.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ... Darlene Haynes. Among those who last saw her Thursday, her ex-boyfriend and the father of the unborn baby.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I looked down, I seen a green Ford come up. And I guess from what I`ve heard, they pulled in the driveway. But the visor was halfway down, so we couldn`t really tell if it was a male or female driving the car.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darlene Haynes was dropping off their 2-year-old daughter, Christina. The landlord found the body Monday.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s horrifying, you know, and my heart goes out to the unborn child and to the child that`s left behind who`s a year-and-a- half, 2 years old, without a mother.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama, in for Nancy Grace. And again, a reminder, Roberto Rodriguez is not a suspect. We did try to reach him today. We did not hear back. Hopefully, we`ll be able to speak to him at some point.
And Patricia Saunders, clinical psychologist, I want to get into a whole lot more in depth in another segment, but just very quickly, it`s mostly women who perpetrate these kinds of crimes on other women, is it not?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, in terms of baby snatching, yes. We also know that a third of pregnant women who are murdered are killed by their partners. That`s about 1,200 a year. So those crimes are actually more prevalent than the baby-snatching mommy killers.
LALAMA: But just putting it together, I mean, killing your spouse or killing an ex is one thing, but it takes a whole different psychology to snatch a fetus.
SAUNDERS: Yes. If it`s a baby snatching, then it`s really rare. But these are women who are obsessed with being pregnant, having their own child. They have little or no conscience. They`re really pretty psychopathic that way. They don`t see the mother as a separate being. It`s just the baby and nothing else.
LALAMA: Karl Whitney, did you know Roberto?
WHITNEY: No, I did not.
LALAMA: Oh, so you don`t really have any idea of his personality or what they may have been...
LALAMA: No, I don`t. I`ve never really -- I`ve seen him in passing a couple of times, but never really met him, no.
LALAMA: And Joe Dwinnell from "the Boston Herald," are cops keeping pretty close to the vest? Do you think they`ve got a lead and they just can`t say it at this point?
MAJESKI: They`re keeping it extremely close to the vest. They`re not saying a word. We`re getting more from the neighbors and the people around this case. An actually, we`re getting a lot more from court records. The boyfriend is facing quite a lot, and he`s back in court tomorrow.
LALAMA: And not a suspect at this point.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michelle Bica (ph), a woman desperate for a baby, had kidnapped and killed Teresa and taken her baby from her dying body.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Horror began to unravel after a shot rang out inside the Bica`s home. Michelle Bica had taken her own life, a newborn was sound asleep inside the home and Andrews` lifeless body was unearthed from a shallow grave in a nearby garage. Her baby had been snatched from her womb.
Friends, family and even her husband testify they actually believed that 39-year-old Lisa Montgomery was pregnant and delivered a baby. Montgomery`s family was shocked when police arrived to arrest her.
It`s revealed Montgomery not only kidnapped the baby, but cut the newborn from the womb of Missouri woman Bobbie Jo Stinnett with a kitchen knife. All after strangling her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Simpson, six months pregnant, was found Friday shot to death with her abdomen cut open in a farmer`s field in Oklahoma. Her fetus was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Simpson had told friends and acquaintances that she was pregnant, but had never produced evidence of a baby. That is until after Simpson`s disappearance. When (INAUDIBLE) walked into a Holdenville Hospital with a dead fetus she claimed was hers. Doctors determined she had not given birth to the child.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Darlene Haynes, eight months pregnant, now her landlord found her mutilated body wrapped in beddings stashed in a bedroom closet. Her womb stripped. Who would steal her baby?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
PAT LALAMA, GUEST HOST: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace.
So as you can see, it`s mostly women, as we mentioned before. And Patricia Saunders, just try to explain for us the psychology. Obviously, women who so desperately need a child it takes them to a level of psychosis to get one?
PATRICIA SAUNDERS, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: They may have a delusion about needing to absolutely have a baby in order to keep their man or to be alive themselves. But some of these women are not psychotic. They`re really sociopathic or psychopathic and lying comes easily to them and killing another human being doesn`t mean very much to them. It`s them and the baby.
LALAMA: So Susan Moss, Penny Douglass Furr and Alan Ripka, I would guess that attorneys representing whoever was responsible would say, oh, my client was insane. Who wants to answer that one?
ALAN RIPKA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I will. I mean, obviously, we`re not claiming that he did it at all. Obviously, if there`s any evidence against him.
LALAMA: Well, I`m not talking about -- I`m talking about anyone who could carve a fetus from a womb. Is that necessarily mean you`re insane, Alan?
RIPKA: Well, certainly if you`re going to carve something out of a human body you must be insane. Whether or not we can prove you`re insane because you don`t know the nature of your act as being bad is another issue.
Certainly someone intends to go to somebody`s house with a knife sharp enough to open up someone`s body and remove a fetus, it`d be difficult to claim that they were insane because they knew exactly what they were doing.
LALAMA: Well, Susan Moss? Anything you have to say about that?
SUSAN MOSS, CHILD ADVOCATE, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: I think you`ve got to look at the facts of this case. That this woman was then wrapped up in a blanket. The fact that she wasn`t just left on the floor, left in a field, shot in the head and buried under a garage.
She was carefully wrapped in a blanket and then put in a closet. Who takes the time to do that? I don`t know, perhaps the cops are going to try to investigate to see whether it`s someone who knew her. Someone who cared about her. And maybe, just maybe, at the end of this case, there might be some fingers pointed to that ex-boyfriend.
LALAMA: Former -- well, not yet though. We have to keep reminding people that at this point he`s not a suspect.
To former NYPD detective, Bill Majeski, according to the authorities, her body was, quote, "so mangled, so decomposed," that initially they could not identify the gender.
BILL MAJESKI, FMR. NYPD DETECTIVE, MAJESKI ASSOCIATES, INC.: So clearly not someone that cared about the body when it was done, but the reality is that the police are keeping everything close to the vest, which tells me that they`re on to some significant leads in the investigation.
LALAMA: Right. Right.
MAJESKI: The ex-boyfriend is a tremendous source of information. Definitely not a suspect at this point in time, but clearly a source of information. He still lived in the area, he was familiar with her comings and goings. He was familiar with the other people in the area.
It`s -- indicative of the case that whoever got into that room with her knew her, or she was, in some regard, friendly with her because she allowed her in. It wasn`t a break-in.
LALAMA: Right.
MAJESKI: So she.
LALAMA: Someone she was comfortable with.
MAJESKI: Absolutely comfortable with.
(CROSSTALK)
MAJESKI: And then trauma to the head means that she was knocked out before the baby was removed. So I`m sure that they`re very, very close to solving this case as we speak.
LALAMA: Marc Klaas, renowned child advocate, president and founder of KlaasKids Foundation. Thanks for joining us. Any thoughts? I mean you deal with missing children all the time. This is particularly heinous.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION (via phone): Yes, indeed it is, Pat. I can tell you that every medical facility, clinic and hospital has been notified about this and anybody that comes in with a baby under suspicious circumstances, an infinitely suspicious circumstances, is immediately going to be looked at extremely closely.
There`s no question about that. And I tend to believe that this could be, this woman had a history of making very bad decisions. The possibility of her letting somebody into that home that she didn`t know, I think, is a very real possibility, too. But I also believe that the neighbor that heard pounding in the house at 2:00 a.m. on Sunday morning and then sort of forgot about it, is probably holding a key piece of evidence because if there are any surveillance tapes in the apartment house or around the neighborhood around that time, or if anybody was out and saw something that didn`t seem suspicious then, but under these circumstance, would seem suspicious, that might hold the key to this case.
LALAMA: Right. And I agree with you. I think that they`ve got their eye on somebody, and they just don`t want to mess up the case so we`ll get to know about it.
But Dr. Marty Makary, if there`s any chance that this baby is alive and well, and we`re all praying that she is, what kind of jeopardy is she in if she`s not getting medical care? I`m assuming dehydration, starvation. Tell us.
DR. MARTY MAKARY, PHYSICIAN, PROF. OF PUBLIC HEALTH, JOHNS HOPKINS: Well, the biggest issue, Pat, is breathing because at that age, the body is making this fluid in the lungs that allows it to expand. And if not enough of it is there, the baby won`t be able to breathe on their own.
Now remember, there`s a good chance that this baby is completely viable and doing well and thriving as long as they`re getting some form of liquid that`s not water.
LALAMA: Yes, let`s -- if anyone recognizes a friend who suddenly shows up with a baby, please, you know, be suspicious of it and call authorities.
I want to take a call from Misty in Oregon. Good evening, Misty, and your question?
MISTY, CALLER FROM OREGON: Yes, I want to tell you know, I have two kids, so this is very upsetting to me. I want to know how this boyfriend cannot be a suspect with the record he has?
LALAMA: Well, because there is a law that says you can`t just call somebody a suspect because of their record. And, you know, statistics, right, Patricia Saunders, statistics show that it isn`t necessarily men who do this? Very quickly.
SAUNDERS: Yes. That`s true, Pat.
LALAMA: OK. And Alan Ripka, you know, people want to jump on the ex- boyfriend, but in fairness to him, to me the guy looks visibly upset. I know that you can`t make a decision about guilt or innocence based on just that, but in all likelihood, I mean I realize why people jump on him, but it is unfair. Alan Ripka.
RIPKA: Does not mean that you have the ability to kill someone and cut a fetus out of their body and it`s very, very unfair for people to make that assumption under the circumstances.
LALAMA: Susan Moss, do you disagree with that?
MOSS: Oh I think that the more investigation is going to happen, the more facts are going to come to light. And I think they`re going to solve it quickly because I`m guessing they`re watching the suspect -- watching everybody who they think is a person of interest right now.
LALAMA: John Depetro, he was the -- excuse me, not the suspect. The ex- boyfriend is getting married today or tomorrow? Is that true?
JOHN DEPETRO, MORNING ANCHOR, WPRO RADIO, COVERING STORY: That is the word that a marriage license was taken out, but the real other tragedy here is this poor women had the mind supposedly of a 12 or 13-year-old.
LALAMA: Right.
DEPETRO: She had three children, she could only take care of one. The landlord said even that was a struggle because of diapers left all over. It sounded as if everyone just stood by as this poor woman was taken advantage of, obviously, sexually and then she paid for it with her life.
LALAMA: You know what, that`s such a profound statement because I`m reading she had mental health issues, according to one. She hung with the wrong crowd. She was depressed. She was very sad. And really where was everyone coming to her rescue? I don`t guess I don`t see that at this point.
To tonight`s safety tips. You may not realize your own home can pose the greatest danger to your children. Here are tips to protect your child from poisonous items. Never, ever leave medication on the table. It seems simple but you`ve got to remember it. Countertops or other areas within a child`s reach. Store all medicines in a locked cabinet.
Remember that simple household and hygiene products, mouthwash, nail polish remover, cleaning supplies, can be poisonous. Keep safety latches on all cabinets with hazardous stuff. Have your home`s paint tested for lead and always keep a number for poison control near your telephone.
We don`t think of this very often. You got to do it. For more information, go to kidshealth.org.
ANNOUNCER: "Nancy Safety Tips," brought to you by.
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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We`re on day five on the search for young Robert Manwill. Robert is still missing, but we remain hopeful for Robert`s safe return.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: FBI agents have joined the search for a missing Idaho boy. Authorities say 8-year-old Robert Manwill vanished just after leaving home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As of this morning, we`ve invested over 5,000 man hours of investigative time in locating Robert.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: After a full day of searching the area around the little boy`s apartment, authorities changed their approach, sending crews to back alleys and yards. Even telling volunteers to look in trash cans.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: So far all efforts, all search and rescue efforts have turned up nothing.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The investigation continues today. With investigators continuing the house to house contacts with neighbors in the area. Valuable information is coming from these interviews. A timeline for Robert`s whereabouts is coming together.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Manwill says it`s not like his son to just disappear.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If somebody`s seen him, you know, please, please call the police. You know we want our little boy back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: I`m Pat Lalama in for Nancy Grace, and another heartbreaker, dealing with a child.
I want to go to Mike Murad reporter for CNN affiliate KBCI. Now gets a little bit complicated because Robert, I understand, was visiting his mother who does not have custody?
MIKE MURAD, REPORTER, CNN AFFILIATE KBCI, ON LOCATION FROM SEARCH HEADQUARTERS: That is correct. Here`s what we`ve learned today and again, bear with us because there have been a lot more questions than answers in this case. Here are the answers that I can give you.
There has been some criminal history on the part of Melissa Jenkins. That is Robert`s mother. Here`s what we found in court documents today. In October of 2008, she was facing a felony charge of injury to a child. She initially pled that down in February of this year to a misdemeanor charge of injury to a child for fracturing her youngest child`s skull. Just a toddler.
Now as for the boyfriend of Melissa Jenkins, there`s also some criminal history with him. His name is Daniel Ehrlick, and he`s been convicted of burglary, battery and possession of drug paraphernalia.
We want to make crystal clear at this point, though, that authorities here in Boise have not made any connection between any past criminal behavior by Robert`s mother or boyfriend in anything that`s happening today with this case.
LALAMA: And ironically, it`s sort of tragic, but also ironic, Greg Hahn from the "Idaho Statesman," my understand is that the biological father has already suffered a tragedy because a wife he had a long time ago stabbed one of his other children to death. Is that true?
GREG HAHN, EDITOR, IDAHO STATESMAN, COVERING STORY (via phone): That`s exactly right. And it was one of those "oh my god" moments, you know, take the glasses off and stare at the computer screen when you see it.
He was a soldier in Fort Hogan, Louisiana, and his wife at the time, they were in their early 20s and ended up pleaded guilty to stabbing this 4- year-old in the chest.
LALAMA: OK.
HAHN: And she served 10 years in a federal prison.
LALAMA: Yes, I mean it`s incredible. And Patricia Saunders, you know, we have no evidence that any of these three people have anything to do with this child missing, but there is a culture of violence in this young man`s life. How does that impact such a young, innocent child?
SAUNDERS: Well, when kids witness violence as a way of problem solving, then they`re going to be drawn to adults who are violent. They also take a lot more risks than kids who are in more normal families and we don`t know what kind of associates the parents have.
LALAMA: Barbara from North Carolina, good evening, Barbara. Question?
BARBARA, CALLER FROM NORTH CAROLINA: Good evening and thank you for taking my call. I was calling to ask what parent would let an 8-year-old child out at 9:30 at night. I mean, it`s pitch-black at nighttime, so why was this child leaving the house by himself to go somewhere?
LALAMA: Well, that`s a great question, but Marc Klaas, I mean, we don`t know all the facts. I mean that`s allegedly what time he was out, between 7:00 and 9:00 in the playground but none of it is really, really certain at this point. You know, what do we look for in a case like this?
KLAAS: Well, first of all, remember, just a couple of weeks ago, we were dealing with a case of a little child named Lindsey Baum in Utah, I believe it was, who also was out at 9:30 at night. It was determined through several sources that it was still light enough at that time for the child to be out.
So I don`t think that we should draw any conclusions that it was pitch- black.
LALAMA: Right.
KLAAS: In Boise, Idaho, which is in sort of a northern latitude at that time of night. The problem that exists right now is that in order for law enforcement to solve this case, they have to eliminate certain individuals and this is such a filthy family.
There`s so much crime involved in this family, cracking heads like walnuts, not being allowed to be with little kids. Being married to somebody that stabbed your son. There`s so much crime that it`s going to be very difficult for law enforcement to eliminate these particular individuals so they can move on to the other possibilities. Also.
LALAMA: Right. Right. But let me stop.
KLAAS: . once the public hears about this, they are going to be much less inclined to go out and try to help find the little boy for the simple reason that they probably will think that something happened within the family.
LALAMA: Now listen, first of all, none of those people have been named as a suspect, and it`s important to remember, this astounded me, although I remember in "America`s Most Wanted" I did stories about, you know, pockets of areas where there`s an inordinate number of sex offenders. 71 sex offenders, Susan Moss, in a one-mile radius. I`d be looking at those guys, too.
MOSS: Oh and they absolutely have. The cops have told us that each and every sex offender in the area has been spoken to and the police are doing everything they can to investigate them using whatever powers they have especially the ones who are on probation, making them answer the tough questions, because they`re going to leave no stone unturned to try to find this little boy.
LALAMA: Penny Douglass Furr, once again, we have a case where people are inclined to look at his family because of its history, not fair?
PENNY DOUGLASS FURR, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, it`s not fair, but the thing is, most of the time it is someone in the family. And so because that`s happened historically that`s the person they look at, but they need to get rid of these people as suspects and investigate them so that they can move on.
And the people who are, you know, have their -- the sex addicts and the people in the area, once they are convicted of that and they have to register as a sex offender, they can go into all of their homes and they can search all of their homes, and I hope they`ve already done that, especially with the 100 of them in this area.
LALAMA: Dr. Marty Makary, I mean, 10 seconds for sure, what do we have to fear for this child`s safety besides the obvious?
MAKARY: Well, the most common thing is that this child may be in hiding. And somebody who grows up in a family with so much history of abuse, this child is likely dealing with severe anxiety and fear.
LALAMA: Tonight, we`re on the search for Nancy Grace`s number one fan. A much happier subject, I might add.
Get your video cameras and e-mails ready and tell us why you are the fabulous Nancy Grace`s number one fan. The best submissions will air on the show and you could win an autographed copy of Nancy`s new novel, "The Eleventh Victim." Plus a chance to win a trip to New York City to meet Nancy herself. Go to CNN.com/Nancygrace. CNN.com/Nancygrace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: I want to thank you so much for all of your calls and your e-mails about my book, "Eleventh Victim." It comes out on August 11. You were the very first to see it right now. Of course after Lucy, pictured here, who grabbed it first.
It`s about a prosecutor who tries her best to give up criminal law and start a new life. But when her friends are murdered, one by one, the NYPD hones in on her.
It took me years to write this book. I started when I first left felony prosecution. And I missed it so much. Since then I wrote another book and published it. Launched this show with my producer, Dean. Got married. Got pregnant. Gave birth. Nearly died. Didn`t. And finished the book.
I hope you like it. Part of my proceeds go to a charity, Wesley Glenn, who takes care of the mentally handicapped that need a loving home. You can find this book on our Web site.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We are in day five in the search of young Robert Manwill. Robert is still missing but we remain hopeful for Robert`s safe return. The family members who are behind me are cooperating fully with investigators as we continue to pour over the leads and put together a timeline for young Robert.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LALAMA: Mike Murad, reporter for CNN affiliate KBCI, we just heard him say that the family is cooperating in this case. Here`s what I want to know. I mean, usually we get the bare minimum from law enforcement but we`re not getting who saw the child on the playground, who called it into authorities. We don`t know, do we?
MURAD: Very few details are being released right now. In fact, we asked police if any of the family members have been asked to take a polygraph test. I want to read you what they back to us. They said until the case is concluded, until we find Robert, specifics and details of this very active, ongoing priority investigation cannot be released, but here`s what I can tell you.
Somebody must believe that the child is still in the Boise area because on Friday they`re asking 1,000 volunteers to come out to this location to search for this young 8-year-old.
LALAMA: Bill Majeski, former NYPD detective, isn`t it a little odd that they can`t even tell us who called authorities?
MAJESKI: Yes. Actually I`m a little concerned that they don`t have a timeline after five days.
LALAMA: Right.
MAJESKI: Clearly, that should be the first thing, the first order of an investigative process. Now they may indeed be keeping things close to the vest and not wanting to disseminate information, they may be -- have some following up some leads right now but the reality is that you have to go back to the beginning.
After five days, if you haven`t solved it or not close to solving it, you have to go back to the beginning and re-establish the ground work. Start creating that timeline more solidly.
LALAMA: Thank you. And public, we need your help on these cases, don`t forget.
Tonight let`s stop to remember Marine Sergeant Joshua Frazier, 24 years old from Spotsylvania, Virginia. Always put out (INAUDIBLE) for himself, he volunteered for a third tour in Iraq to lead a group of young marines. He also served in Afghanistan and was awarded the Purple Heart, Iraq Campaign Medal and National Defense Service Medal.
Remembered for a great big handshake and a bright smile. He loved Spider- man and taking friends and family to Lake (INAUDIBLE). His favorite book, "Catcher in the Rye."
He leaves behind parents Rick and Sheila and Brother Aaron.
Joshua Frazier, an American hero.
Thanks to all our guests and to you at home for being with us. Nancy, thanks for letting me sit in. See you tomorrow night. 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, have a wonderful, wonderful night.
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