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Jane Velez-Mitchell
More Light Shed Into Morning of Jackson`s Death; "Friendly, Thoughtful Conversation" at White House over Gates Arrest
Aired July 31, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, earth-shattering allegations in the Michael Jackson manslaughter investigation. Have cops found the smoking gun that investigators believe Dr. Murray may have tried desperately to hide? TMZ now reporting Jackson actually took his last breath in Murray`s personal bed. Law enforcement sources now speculating Jackson used Murray`s bedroom nearly every night as his personal sleeping chamber. Complete with an I.V. and oxygen tanks.
This comes on the very same day that search warrants refer to Jackson as a drug addict, who had numerous prescription drugs inside his home. Is this game, set, match for M.J.`s doctor?
And President Obama kicks back with a cold one and talks race relations. Was it happy hour at the White House? The president, the Harvard law professor, and the cop who arrested him sat down for a beer. But this story is about so much more than race. Can we please have a 21st century discussion for a post-racial world? It`s a side of the story you won`t get anywhere else.
Plus, TLC tells Jon Gosselin no girlfriends allowed. What? So much for reality. The new season of "Jon & Kate Plus 8" is all set to kick off, but don`t expect to see any significant others. This after Kate`s brother tells "The Early Show" the Gosselins are a family in crisis that is controlled by the network, all the while claiming he has lost his sister to fame.
ISSUES starts now.
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VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, mounting evidence that something was seriously wrong at the Jackson household in the hours before 911 was called on the day of the pop star`s death. New clues served up by Michael Jackson`s personal chef call into question the timing and actions by Jackson`s personal physician, Dr. Conrad Murray.
In several interviews, Chef Kai Chase has said that Dr. Murray, who stayed overnight in the home, would routinely come downstairs with oxygen tanks at 10 a.m. and then return to Jackson`s room with breakfast. But on the morning of June 25, she says she saw no sign of the doctor until much later.
Here she is on NBC`s "Today Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAI CHASE, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL CHEF: Around 12 p.m., 12:10, Dr. Murray comes running down the stairs and into the kitchen stairwell, well, into the kitchen, and comes into the kitchen, screaming, "Hurry, go get Prince. Go get security."
MEREDITH VIEIRA, CO-HOST, "THE TODAY SHOW": So he`s frantic?
CHASE: He`s frantic, yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If this crisis actually began at noon, why didn`t Dr. Murray come down at 10 a.m., the way the chef said he usually did?
TMZ is reporting that cops believe Dr. Murray could have discovered Michael Jackson either already dead or in distress as early as 9 that morning. TMZ claims cops are working on the theory that that morning, Dr. Murray called two employees to go to his Houston storage unit and remove certain items. TMZ claims they arrived at the storage facility at 9:22 a.m. L.A. time.
The manager of the storage unit spoke to NBC.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUE LYON, GENERAL MANAGER, WEST 18TH ST. STORAGE: Three to four boxes, just small boxes put in the trunk of a car. And then they carried a couple of things out to put in their Mercedes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, TMZ caught up with one of those women, who denied moving any files.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The storage people said that you moved files.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, I didn`t.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What did you move?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A chair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The question we do not have an answer to is did Dr. Murray deliberately delay calling 911? And if so, why and for how long?
According to the return on this search warrant, issued for Tuesday`s raid of Dr. Murray`s Las Vegas home and office, investigators took an iPhone and information from a BlackBerry and a cell phone, along with computer hard drive images.
Meantime, law enforcement sources tell TMZ that Michael Jackson did not spend his final hours in his own room, but rather, in Dr. Murray`s bed. TMZ says cops believe the doctor would use his own room almost nightly to administer Propofol to Jackson.
All this on the heels of a reported meeting among cops, the coroner, and the LAPD, and speculation that they plan to release the autopsy report at the very same time, if any arrest comes down.
Straight out to my outstanding expert panel: Drew Findling, Atlanta criminal defense attorney; Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist; Mike Gaynor, retired NYPD detective and president of East Coast Detectives; Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Firpo Carr, Jackson family friend and former Jackson spokesperson; Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst.
But first, I want to turn to TMZ`s Mike Walters.
Mike, TMZ breaking so many stories on this case. What is the very latest?
MIKE WALTERS, TMZ: Well, you said it, Jane. This is the most interesting thing I`ve heard yet. And that is that Michael Jackson passed away in Dr. Murray`s bed, not in his own.
And we`re told that emergency workers, when they arrived, this was like a scene out of an urgent care in a hospital. There was a bed. There was an empty I.V. bag. There was an I.V. stand. There were oxygen tanks, which you just heard the chef talk about. And we`re told that, basically, almost nightly, Dr. Murray would go to the house at night, administer Propofol, and then leave in the morning.
Now, there`s so many things, and you`ve already said them all, but there`s so many things that line up sort of a theory, an outline as to what`s happened and how this could have happened. But one of the things I can tell you is, for sure, that if that`s what happened and Dr. Murray gave Propofol in his room -- by the way, the closet is where they found the stash of Propofol in the house. If this is what happened, Dr. Murray was not an anesthesiologist. You`re not supposed to administer this outside of a hospital; nor should he ever be administering it for insomnia at all. So this is just really unbelievable information.
And how it all comes out, obviously, we can`t convict Dr. Murray or anything like that, but this is so interesting. And then the calls made before 911, if there was any, and if there were calls to Houston, which we know for sure these two girls showed up. I`ve seen the log. They showed up at 9:22 L.A. time and removed three to five boxes. You heard the manager say it herself, right there on tape.
So why are they not telling the same story? Why is everybody`s story kind of getting mixed up and it`s not all the same? And how come this could have happened? And how come any of this is happening to Michael Jackson and why? I don`t know yet, but we`re going to find out.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Mike Walters, you deserve a detective cap for the kind of work that you and TMZ have been doing. And...
WALTERS: I learned some of it from you, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, we used to work together on "Celebrity Justice."
WALTERS: Yes. Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And it`s great to see you back here. Thank you for all that information, Mike.
I want to turn to Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst. And certainly, we have reached out repeatedly to hear Dr. Murray`s side of the story. We`d love to have him or his attorneys on, his spokesperson, anybody. We want to know what he has to say. Maybe there`s an innocent explanation for all of this.
But given the search warrant that you`ve studied, Lisa, and these troubling details of this time line, what -- what are the thoughts that occur to you?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, here`s what jumps out at me. Yes, Jane, I`ve read the search warrant very carefully, as well, just like you have. Now we know for sure what the theories are that the police are proceeding on.
We had already heard about manslaughter. We have speculated, but now we know about the other charges. Excessive prescribing, prescribing to an addict, excess treatment or prescribing, unprofessional conduct, prescribing to or treating an addict, and manslaughter.
On the specific manslaughter charges, essentially causing the death of a person in the course of an unlawful act. What would that unlawful act be? Well, giving drugs to the known addict, giving this treatment to Michael Jackson when it clearly wasn`t warranted. If the police can put together all the pieces of the puzzle, I tell you, I think Dr. Murray is in a lot of trouble.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark Eiglarsh, would it be fair to say that there are two issues here? One is the actual administration of the Propofol, if that indeed occurred. And the second one is the possibility that all was not as it appeared during that 911 call.
If in fact these TMZ reports are true, that cops are operating a theory that he may have found the body or Michael Jackson, in deep distress, as early as 9 a.m., because the call -- the two people showed up at that Houston storage facility at 9:22 a.m. And he didn`t go downstairs in the morning, the way he always did.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Yes. And Jane, you just set a record, that`s the longest question you`ve ever asked me. Congratulations.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you. Why don`t you give me the shortest answer you`ve ever given me? How about that?
MIKE GAYNOR, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE: Touche, touche.
EIGLARSH: The shortest -- the shortest answer is yes.
GAYNOR: No!
EIGLARSH: There are two different issues -- there are two different issues here, for sure. And the one that cops are focusing on are the inconsistencies. If these two gals, and it seems very coincidental that they went to his warehouse at the time or around the time, either before, during, or after Michael Jackson passed away, it certainly seems like there`s some smoke here, maybe some fire.
The fact that these two girls, also, I`ve heard, have been interviewed and they have different explanations for why they were going to the warehouse, also makes me suspect, what`s going on here?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess where you heard that, Mark? Right here on ISSUES, about a minute ago.
GAYNOR: That`s right.
EIGLARSH: News and views, yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Drew Findling, I think the other piece of the puzzle, though, is the fact that the chef is saying, normally he came downstairs at 10 a.m. And he didn`t. So obvious question to ask, if everything was normal up until around noon, which is the story we`ve been given, why not come down at 10 a.m. the way you always do?
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, clearly, there`s some impropriety. I mean, the fact that we`re now learning that he would just show up at the Jackson residence at night to apparently administer the Propofol, the fact that the room -- his own bedroom, the doctor`s own bedroom -- was set up like a MASH unit lets us know that there was some really bad stuff going on there.
So the fact that he came later on, to me, what I want to see from the autopsy report, is I know there was some type of an attempt to resuscitate him, but you know, there`s a chance that Michael Jackson was colder than an ice cube when the -- when the 911 was responded to.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark -- Mike Gaynor, you`re the retired NYPD. You`re the detective. What do you make of this disturbing time line? What advantage, hypothetically, would a doctor get from delaying the reporting of a patient either in distress or dead, given that we`re talking here about very serious drugs possibly being in his system?
GAYNOR: Well, very hypothetically, there`s one thing. If the doctor was involved in any wrongdoing, he might have used that time to get rid of some evidence that he wanted to get rid of, part of that theory you`re talking about.
However, let`s talk about some of these theories. That`s just what they are. There`s a lot of conflict, and there`s a lot of things that have to be questioned.
First of all, now we learn that Michael Jackson was sleeping in the doctor`s room. So what about Kai, the chef, who said that every time he came down at a certain time and went to Michael Jackson`s room? If on the last day he died in the doctor`s room, there would be an inconsistency right there to look at.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. But why did they find Propofol there? That`s what I don`t understand. If you`re going to hide something, hide the big, smoking gun.
GAYNOR: I`ll tell you, an important question -- an important question is whether or not there`s a matter of ethics and bad behavior or criminal behavior. I don`t know yet.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re going to get into that in just a moment. More from our expert panel in the Michael Jackson death saga.
Then, two police chiefs accused of stealing from, of all people, Sarah Jessica Parker`s surrogate mother. They had their day in court. They`re suspected of breaking into this poor woman`s home and stealing for the paparazzi? How low can you go?
But first, the Michael Jackson death probe closing in on Dr. Conrad Murray, who was with Michael Jackson when he died. Here`s the eerie 911 call placed at approximately 12:22 p.m. L.A. time.
( BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he on the floor? Where is he at right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He`s on the bed, sir. He`s on the bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let`s get him on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let`s get him down to the floor. I`m going to help you with CPR right now...
Did anybody see him?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, we have a personal doctor here with him, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you have a doctor there?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHERILYN LEE, CLAIMS SHE TREATED MICHAEL JACKSON: He asked me, he said, "Can you find me a doctor? I don`t care how much money they want. I don`t care what it is they want. I want this drug."
DEEPAK CHOPRA, FRIEND OF MICHAEL JACKSON: I saw bottles of OxyContin. I knew he was getting shots. I knew his doctors were.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Those are eyewitness accounts of the lengths Michael Jackson went to for drugs. Now ABC News is reporting it was a lethal cocktail of OxyContin and Demerol that killed Michael.
Lisa Bloom, we`ve been talking so much about Propofol, if you add those two drugs into the mix, what do you make of it, given that the search warrant said they were looking for correspondence between Michael Jackson, Nurse Cherilyn Lee, Dr. Arnie Klein, and five other doctors who have not been mentioned in the news.
BLOOM: That`s good news for Dr. Murray, and I`ll tell you why. Because Dr. Murray wants as many different medications in Michael Jackson`s system as possible. As many different doctors implicated in this thing as possible, to take away the chain of causation that looks like it was leading directly to him from the Propofol.
If this causation issue becomes murky and cloudy and confusing and complicated, then he may not be convicted of any serious crime, any homicide crime. He might only be looking at the lower-level drug crimes, excessive prescriptions, et cetera, many of which are just misdemeanors.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But what about the cover-up? Go ahead.
Well, Lisa, let me say, I have to disagree for a second. And I know - - I know that you and Jane know Harlan Braun, a friend of mine, and one of the best attorneys represents this Dr. Metzger from Hollywood, the rheumatologist, and Harlan`s come out and said, "Hey, my client was contacted by Michael Jackson, who was looking for Propofol. And my client was like, `No way.` He gave him minor medication, and that`s it."
And Harlan, as you guys know from the beginning of the Blake case, he`s not going to say it if he doesn`t mean it. And I think what he has to say is damaging. And Harlan`s even gone on record saying, "My client is a potential witness if there`s a prosecution.
BLOOM: From what Jane is saying, OxyContin could have caused his death.
EIGLARSH: Lisa makes a very good point. The point is that nobody wants to go down for anything that has to do with the death. So what Lisa`s saying is there`s a causation issue. And that`s what`s key here. They have to prove that it was the Propofol if they`re saying that that`s what Dr. Murray administered. Minus that, if there`s a number of different possible causes, that`s reasonable doubt. And they could still get him for a whole host of other charges, but that`s the key. That`s the point she`s making. A very good point.
BLOOM: And the question, is Jackson...
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: We`re going to speculate until we get the toxicology report, but we talked about the 911 call. And we thought about it in the tragic death of Michael Jackson. But I will tell you, I do everything to try to think of how to defend a case.
And if I`m representing Dr. Murray, I hate that 911 call, because that 911 call is just the throwing in the towel, because we know a physician is trained in resuscitation. Mark, that`s like you calling up a paralegal and panicking before you file a brief with the Supreme Court of Florida. That makes no...
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: OxyContin and Demerol are pills...
EIGLARSH: It`s happened, it`s happened.
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Actually, that would not be totally the case, because many doctors now are so specially trained that you would not want to be the person responsible for resuscitating someone who is -- stopped breathing or whose heart has stopped.
So on the other hand, Dr. Murray was a cardiologist, so in his case, he should absolutely have known how to resuscitate a patient.
(CROSSTALK)
BLOOM: OK, but one point. OxyContin and Demerol are pills, and Jackson could have been taking these pills and hiding it from Dr. Murray. He could have been, you know, doctor shopping and hiding medications, because there`s no national registry. And if Dr. Murray didn`t know about potential interactions, he could be off the hook.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. I`ve got to ask you this. If there is -- here`s a sharp question for you, Mark. If there`s a cover-up, does that add additional charges?
EIGLARSH: Absolutely, 100 percent. Tampering with evidence, if he knows there`s a criminal investigation, absolutely. He sends those two women over to get rid of evidence, assuming that`s what happened, absolutely. But I want to make one more...
GAYNOR: ... come up with evidence, physical evidence in this case. I think the defense for the good doctor is going to be bad doctoring.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Firpo Carr, you are a friend of the Jacksons. You look at all of this and you hear about this mini clinic in there with all these drugs, it seems like somebody should have been able to do something about that, at least know about this Propofol business.
FIRPO CARR, FORMER JACKSON SPOKESMAN: Well, if you know Michael Jackson, you know that he`s his own man. And you`re not going to tell him what to do. The family has tried on numerous occasions to intervene when it comes to this problem.
And of course, he definitely strayed from the faith in this area. Being raised as one of the Jehovah`s witnesses, this is something, like, he definitely would not do. To find out that he`s doing it or that he did it, that is something that the family was very troubled. And as I mentioned before, Randy Jackson even went down to Mexico -- it was not in the news -- to help Michael out, because he was at a clinic there, trying to get help.
So I think that, when we look at it from the family`s point of view, we see that a loving family is trying to help a man who is rather stubborn sometimes. That`s just...
EIGLARSH: They have to want to get help. That`s the bottom line. Jane, I want to raise one point about Dr. Murray.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK.
EIGLARSH: Here`s one issue about Dr. Murray. One minute he`s not a suspect. Now he`s public enemy No. 1?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, I agree. We want to get his side of the story.
Fabulous panel, stay right there. We`re going to have more with the Michael Jackson death investigation.
But first, President Obama shared a beer with the Harvard law professor and the cop who arrested him. What does that whole arrest scenario say about us and our false assumptions that we make about each other? A story you won`t see anywhere else.
And Jon and Kate minus their lovers? TLC reportedly says no significant others. We`ll report.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In tonight`s spotlight, never before has a chat over beer demanded so much attention. Harvard Professor Louis Gates and Sergeant James Crowley talked at the White House yesterday about Gates` now infamous arrest July 16, which sparked a national debate. Is Crowley guilty of racial profiling? Did Gates react the way he did because Crowley is white?
Guess what, people. We`re all missing the point. This story goes way beyond race. It`s really about the false assumptions we all make about our fellow human beings every day.
Let`s get some fresh insight from our guest, Simon Sinek, author of "Start with Why: How Great Leaders Inspire Everyone to Take Action."
Simon, take a look at these headlines, "Brew-haha."
SIMON SINEK, AUTHOR, "START WITH WHY": I know.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Major headlines, but they don`t address the fundamental issue. Namely, we all have preconceived notions about other people, regarding not just race but gender, age, income, education, accent, clothing, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, and those assumptions are often wrong.
SINEK: Correct. I mean, the big deal about this is that the assumptions that Obama made was based in sort of all the same false assumptions that we all have. And he just reacted to those assumptions. It`s ready, fire, aim, is what happened.
And what he should have done, is really, if it was going to be any beer or phone calls, anything like that, wouldn`t you think it would have been wise to call these people before to find out the facts besides reacting and then having to have beer later to put it right?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I guess my point is, Simon, is that we need to expand this beyond just the racial conversation. You know, when we see a person in a suit and another person in ripped jeans, a lot of us will assume the person in the suit is the executive. Not always the case.
When we see a younger person with an older person, we don`t necessarily assume the younger person might be the boss of the older person, because we have all these preconceived notions in our head. How do we get beyond that?
SINEK: Well, it`s a tricky one, because our behaviors are governed by our assumptions. You know, not so long ago, people thought the world was flat. And so this false assumption changed the behavior of all -- of an entire population. There was no exploration. There was no travel, because people thought if they traveled too far, they`d fall off the ends of the earth.
It wasn`t until sort of someone revealed that that assumption was actually false, and it changed the behavior of the populations for the end of time. We traveled, and mathematics was exchanged and trade routes were established. Really, to overcome these assumptions, it requires somebody to take a risk. It requires somebody to actually take that -- that...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Not judge.
SINEK: ... boat trip around the world.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Not judge. One person you didn`t see at the so- called beer summit, Lucia Whalen, the woman who called 911 to report a possible break-in at the professor`s home. She seems like the only one who has held any judgment in the situation. Here`s her attorney, friend of the show, Wendy Murphy. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WENDY MURPHY, ATTORNEY FOR LUCIA WHALEN: The three highly-trained guys, who reacted badly, are getting together tomorrow for a beer at the White House, and that`s a good thing. But the one person whose actions have been exemplary will be at work tomorrow here in Cambridge. I don`t know, maybe it`s a guy thing. She doesn`t like beer anyway.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: False assumptions involving gender? Why wasn`t the woman included?
SINEK: Well, what it proves is that assumptions are made without facts and without evidence. And what she actually did is she made a call based on facts and evidence. She saw somebody breaking into a home. It`s a -- it`s a fair reaction that that person might be breaking in, so you call the police. Everybody else reacted based without any evidence whatsoever. And you see the results.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. I think that the lesson that we have to take away from this situation, first of all, I personally applaud President Obama for having that get-together. I thought that was very forward thinking. Let`s move even more forward, to this new concept of post-racial 21st century thinking.
More on the Michael Jackson case in just moments. Why was he in the doctor`s bed, reportedly?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Earth-shattering allegations in the Michael Jackson manslaughter investigation: have cops found the smoking gun that investigators believe Dr. Murray may have tried desperately to hide? This comes on the very same day that search warrants refer to Jackson as a drug addict, who had numerous prescription drugs inside his home.
Plus, TLC tells Jon Gosselin, no girlfriends allowed. What? So much for reality; the show has reportedly barred any love interest. This after Kate`s brother tells "The Early Show," the Gosselins are a family in crisis, all the while claiming he has lost his sister to fame.
But first, explosive revelations in the Michael Jackson death probe about the hours and minutes of the very day he died. The long-awaited and highly anticipated coroner`s report, delayed again; according to the "L.A. Times," indefinitely. Is that because the coroner, the cops, and prosecutors are coordinating an arrest as they build a case against the reported target of a manslaughter investigation, Dr. Conrad Murray?
We would like to hear from him. Anytime, you, sir are invited on the show.
The doctor`s actions on the morning of June 25th, now raising questions, especially in light of what Jackson`s personal chef has said, that she did not see him at the usually time of 10:00 or 10:30 a.m. on that crucial day.
Kai Chase said, on that day, a frantic Dr. Murray came running down the stairs at noon and screamed for Michael`s son, Prince. Larry King asked her why she thinks she did that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: why do you think the doctor called for Prince?
KAI CHASE, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL CHEF: Well, I think, you know, at that point, maybe he may have panicked...
KING: The doctor panicked?
CHASE: It just seemed like he was in a panicked state. He called for Prince, he called for security, just somebody -- you know, that could go up -- that was allowed to go upstairs.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now, listen to what she said Michael Jackson told her about rehearsals for his comeback tour.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHASE: I remember one day, the third day I was there, when I came back, he told me, they`re killing me. They`re killing me because I`m working too much.
KING: Who was they?
CHASE: I`m assuming whoever...
KING: Concert people?
CHASE: Possibly. He was rehearsing a lot.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Back to my awesome expert panel: Drew Findling, Atlanta criminal defense attorney; Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist; Mike Gaynor, former NYPD detective and president of East Coast Detectives; the one and only Mark Eiglarsh, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor; Firpo Carr, Jackson family friend and former spokesperson; and Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst.
Lisa, it kind of troubles me though that now the coroner`s report is delayed indefinitely. At a certain point, doesn`t that become suppression?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It becomes suspicious, I think. The coroner is supposed to be an independent arm of the local government. This is a scientific office that`s supposed to reach its conclusions free of any collusion with the police, law enforcement, prosecutors.
Now, of course, they work together all the time, but the coroner is supposed to reach their own independent report. I know we`re waiting for toxicology. Perhaps there`s an innocent explanation for the delay, but this is a long, long time, Jane. And this is getting a little suspicious to me.
MARK EIGLARSH, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I disagree. I disagree. Everybody wants a conspiracy. What they`re doing is making sure that they dot every "i," cross every "t," because Jane Velez-Mitchell and others will scrutinize the four corners of that document so carefully and will pull from there any facts that we possibly can to suggest something mysterious.
BLOOM: So what?
EIGLARSH: So they want to make sure everything is done properly.
BLOOM: You know, the test results are what they are.
There`s no I`s to dot, to t`s to cross. The test results speak for themselves.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is that why they waited so long to raid Dr. Murray`s Las Vegas home and office, waiting six days after they raided the Houston office, thereby depriving themselves of any element of surprise?
EIGLARSH: You can`t just go in until you have enough. At first, they thought he was not even a suspect, so something developed, and then they went in when they thought it was appropriate.
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, there`s one thing that`s very important. And that is, we`re concentrating on the coroner; we`re concentrating on law enforcement.
If you represented doctors in investigations like this before, you know that what`s happening on the side, away from the media, is there`s a medical board. And that medical board is doing their own investigation. They don`t have to worry about due process. They don`t have to worry about probable cause, because practicing medicine in California is not a right, it`s a privilege.
And they could be extremely probing, and we don`t know what they`re doing. But I guarantee you that they`re working hard right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s get to the alias issue, because this is fascinating in a disturbing away.
The search warrant for Dr. Murray`s office listed multiple aliases that Michael Jackson used, including his own personal chef. She responded to this news on "Larry King" last night.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KING: The warrants to search the doctor`s offices cited your name as a suspected alias for Michael Jackson. What do you know about that?
CHASE: I was just made aware of that from my publicist, Michael Fenn (ph) just recently. I think that is appalling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In addition to her name, Michael used famous author Jack London -- author of one of my favorite books "Call of the Wild;" his own son, Prince Jackson; Frank Tyson, an un-indicted co-conspirator in Jackson`s 2004 criminal indictment; and even Josephine Baker, a jazz singer from the 1930s.
Some might say this is funny but Dr. Dale Archer, what really troubles me is the use of his own son`s name. To me, that strikes me as almost demented.
DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Well, unfortunately, that`s what happens when you become addicted to narcotics. You will do anything for the high from that drug.
This is very common, not only for rich and famous people, but for people across the board, they have multiple doctors and multiple names in order to keep getting that drug and keep getting high. They are the most highly addictive drugs on the planet.
FIRPO CARR, JACKSON FAMILY FRIEND: Well, you know I`d like to add something here to that.
It`s not Michael Jackson`s greatest moment; that is for sure. But he also used aliases outside of his use of drugs, if you will. When he called, in fact, for Kai Chase, when they were -- when she was subpoenaed - - pardon me, summoned to his office for hiring, he used a different name, or he said, hey, his name wasn`t given.
So I would like to say, in his defense, that that was -- that`s not just something that Michael Jackson did...
EIGLARSH: That has nothing to do -- that has nothing to do...
CARR: Sure, it does. It goes beyond the use of drugs I`m not justifying it. I`m just saying it goes beyond his use of drugs, that`s all.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, one at a time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When you start to name fictitious...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me see. Put them all up on a screen. I want to see who`s talking now. Eeny, meeny, miny, moe.
Dr. Dale, you have your hand raised, I`ll take you.
ARCHER: I feel like the teacher`s pet, thank you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You are.
EIGLARSH: You probably are. You are.
ARCHER: The point here is that this is a common scenario. So what if he used aliases in order to stay secret from the public. When it comes down to procuring dangerous narcotic drugs, this is common. So we have to understand...
CARR: It is.
ARCHER: ... that the addiction is what was making him do this. He needed more drugs than he could legally get, and he was using any means in his power to be able to get those drugs.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mark, go ahead.
EIGLARSH: Thank you, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You owe me, Mark. You owe me.
EIGLARSH: Ok. Because it`s so common, especially here in South Florida, with all the pill mills, the doctors then have to find out where these pills are going. And those doctors, and I think many of them, if not most, knew they were going to Michael Jackson, they need to be prosecuted. It is a violation of both state and federal law to do what most of them were doing.
BLOOM: That`s right because they didn`t examine anyone by the name of Kai Chase or Prince Jackson and then prescribe the medication. That`s the way it`s supposed to go.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa, does Kai Chase have a lawsuit?
FINDLING: And that`s the issue here...
BLOOM: No, probably not. I don`t see what her damages are...
CARR: No, no. She wouldn`t do it anyway.
(CROSS TALK)
BLOOM: And why is the doctor panicking? He`s a trained cardiologist. Why is he panicking and the first person he calls for, a 12-year-old child; the same 12-year-old child that`s used for these prescriptions?
CARR: Great point.
BLOOM: Thanks, Firpo.
CARR: Your welcome, Lisa.
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to get back to this two-tiered issued.
There`s so many facets to this investigation, Drew Findling, you have al these doctors, many of who might be swept in it just because they have a phone call and they rejected it. But now their name is in their search warrant, so their lives have certainly been affected by it.
You have all of that. You`ve got the Propofol issue, and then you`ve got this issue of a possible cover-up. I ask again, how could that affect the specific charges that could be filed, hypothetically, against Dr. Conrad Murray if he found Michael Jackson dead or completely unresponsive at 9:00 a.m. and 911 was not called until 12:22 p.m.?
MIKE GAYNOR, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Jane, the cover-up is always worse than the crime. If there is, indeed, a cover-up and it comes out that people conspired together to keep secrets and do illegal things like prescription writing and doctor shopping and all that, that`s going to turn out to be a big part of this case.
There`s no doubt that Michael Jackson contributed to his own demise. And these doctors are all going to point in other directions to protect themselves.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Five seconds, Drew.
FINDLING: You have two issues, you have the issue of whether or not he knowingly obstructed the investigation or anybody affiliated with the doctor obstructed the investigation.
BLOOM: Sometimes the cover-up is the only crime. Look at the Martha Stewart case.
EIGLARSH: And it goes to consciousness of guilt too.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to bring out the gavel, we are out of time. Thank you, fantastic panel. Come back real soon.
Love having you on.
It is not just Michael Jackson, millions of people across America are grappling with addiction and I`m one of them. In my new book, "I Want," I reveal details of my personal battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober more than 14 years ago.
It`s a recovery memoir due out this fall. You can preorder your copyright now, click on cnn.com/jane and look for the preorder section.
This book is also about other addictive behaviors that surfaced after I got sober, with everything from sugar to relationships. I`m sure you`ll relate to some of them. There`s more than a few shockers there too; it could help you with your issues or someone you love.
I want to thank my excellent panel once again. Great job. Boy, they how to debate, don`t they?
Cops stealing for the paparazzi? Two men accused of breaking into a house that belonged to Sarah Jessica Parker`s surrogate mom.
And there`s a new season of "Jon & Kate plus 8," but don`t expect to see any of Jon`s alleged new girlfriends. They may be al over the tabloids, but according to some published reports, they`re not going to be on TLC.
We`ll be back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We all know that the newly-single Jon Gosselin has tons of girlfriends, but that`s about to come to an end, at least when TLC`s cameras are rolling, reportedly. We`re going to analyze that.
But first, "Top of the Block" tonight: a shocking twist in an already horrific story. The Florida woman charged with being the accessory in the murder of a Florida couple known for adopting special needs kids has been rearrested. Get this -- she was allegedly married to two men at the very same time.
The Escambia County sheriff`s office`s arrested 47-year-old Pamela Wiggins on the bigamy charge Thursday. She has already bonded out of jail. Wiggins previously charged with being an accessory after the fact to the murder of Byrd and Melanie Billings. A safe from the billings` home was found, allegedly, in her backyard.
And on to another arrest, two Ohio police chiefs suspected of masterminded a break-in at Sarah Jessica Parker`s surrogate`s house, so they could allegedly steal her stuff and sell it to the paparazzi have been charged with a laundry list of felonies.
Martins Ferry Police Chief Barry Carpenter and Bridgeport Police Chief Chad Dojack were charged with everything from burglary to tampering with evidence. That`s right -- you heard it right -- police chiefs; both men pleading not guilty -- both free on bond.
The surrogate mom gave birth for twins for Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick June 22nd at an Ohio hospital. Congratulations to them.
That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."
And more dramarama tonight in the lives of reality stars Jon and Kate Gosselin. "Jon & Kate Plus 8" -- a domestic disaster, but sure to be ratings champ -- launches a new season Monday, but has some asking, where`s the reality?
RadarOnline, reporting the show will tackle single parenting, but not dating. "Star" magazine says, that`s not true, that we will see the couple`s new squeezes. I`m not sure I want to see them, but we want reality. That`s for sure.
This sneak peek reveals what has not changed and that is the tension.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS 8": No, Jon, what planet do you live on?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What do you use those for?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Jon says he is now single, but we`ve seen him gallivanting the globe with a 22-year-old gal pal and a former "Star" magazine reporter. Does the new season not have time for that slice of reality? Why not? If not.
Meantime, a family feud brewing as Kate`s brother slams TLC on CBS`s "Early Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN KREIDER, KATE GOSSELIN`S BROTHER: What we`re seeing now is a family that`s in crisis and we feel like TLC needs to be held responsible. It`s a ratings thing, but they`re playing with these kids` lives.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Aunt and uncle are implying their little nieces and nephews are suffering. We reached out to TLC. They say, "no comment."
Meantime, "New York Post" page six is saying Jon would like to shop a new show based on being a single dad. Page six suggesting Jon is hard up for cash and needs the money. What?
So much to talk about, straight to my fantastic expert panel: Natalie Thomas, deputy news director with "US Weekly;" Sharon Liko, a family lawyer, a criminal defense attorney; Brenda Wade, clinical psychologist.
And Natalie, before we get into all of this, there are also conflicting reports out there of Kate buying a single gal pad in Maryland, close to her bodyguard. What can you tell us?
NATALIE THOMAS, DEPUTY NEWS DIRECTOR, "US WEEKLY": Yes. There are reports -- one outlet in particular was reporting that she is looking to buy or actually that she did buy an apartment in Rockville, Maryland, which is very close to her ex-bodyguard and former reported flame, Steve Neil (ph).
However, we have not been able to confirm that and sources are telling us that she has not bought anything. And that some are speculating that because of the custody dispute that is upcoming; that she does not want to be far away from her kids. She doesn`t know how that would look.
So she is not doing anything right yet. She`s kind of staying with friends in Maryland, staying with people in Pennsylvania and kind of flipping around, but hasn`t really bought anything at this point.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. And Brenda Wade, a clinical psychologist, all of this stuff happening and these kids have done this TV, with the camera in their faces.
BRENDA WADE, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you agree with the aunt and uncle, that this could be affecting them psychologically?
WADE: There is no question, Jane, that it`s affecting them, 51 percent of our families just like Jon and Kate, go through divorce and we know that your subconscious mind is 50 percent formed by the time you`re 4 years old.
So what are these children taking in? They`re taking in long-term instability patterns. This is trauma for children. And children need to be considered at a time like this, absolutely, what that family member said, in crisis.
These kids -- we know this for a fact -- will grow up with more health issues, money issues, problems in relationship without a doubt.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, let`s hope not.
WADE: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I mean, let`s hope they`re be accepted...
WADE: Well, it takes work to avoid it, Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But TLC says the new episodes of "Jon & Kate Plus 8" document the Gosselins separately parenting their eight kids.
Let`s look at Kate dealing with the new single mom situation. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOSSELIN: It is not their fault that what has transpired has transpired. And it is my new attitude that I am going to do things I have never done before. I have to.
I just put a screen in the window for the first time in my life. I`m not happy about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sharon Liko, what about these reports that the show will not include Jon`s dating or presumably Kate`s, for that matter. I mean, what kind of phony baloney reality is that. And we have to say, TLC is not commenting.
But if it is true, how can they call it a reality show?
SHARON LIKO, FAMILY LAWYER: Well, they can`t. Because this is a country -- we are the divorce capital of the world.
WADE: Yes.
LIKO: There are families that are broken up all the time. I think this scenario is just perfect. I mean, it`s perfect for the U.S. to look at, in a microscopic fashion, what happens to people...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait, are you saying it`s a good idea that they have this reality show and that their divorce is displayed out for the world to see?
LIKO: Sure. Its reality -- I mean, isn`t that what the purpose of the show is?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, if it`s going to be all the realities, if it`s just going to be to limit it and we won`t see the dating, then can you say its reality? Is that going to ruin it?
WADE: Well, there`s a problem, Jane. There`s a big problem here, yes.
LIKO: It`s just limiting the dating portions of it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
LIKO: I do this kind of stuff all the time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sure you do. Hang on, fantastic panel.
We`ll be back with more on "Jon & Kate Plus 8" in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GOSSELIN: Everyone wants to know everything about us and I feel like this is a situation where, you know, you can`t believe everything that you read. You know that, I know that. And so we are dealing with it privately.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sorry Kate, you took the check, it`s been cashed, you are on a reality show. Does Kate have a chance at ever being a private person while TLC`s cameras remain in her home?
Back to my expert panel. Natalie Thomas, deputy news director of "US Weekly." You cover celebrity. Is this a reality show if they`re not going to include the dating? Are they trying to have it both ways? They don`t want to be celebrities, but they want the reality show.
They want to keep the show going, even though they`re getting divorced, but they don`t want to include the dating.
THOMAS: Jon and Kate absolutely want to have it both ways. Their statements are even contradictory at times. We see this a lot with newfound celebrities. You know, they welcome the endorsements and the money and the photos and the magazines and then when it turns a little negative and they are doing a reality show, they want no part of it.
WADE: But Jane, I have to say that it is terribly traumatic for children to see parents dating. The rule is no dating within the first year after a divorce.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, obviously...
WADE: They`re breaking all the rules.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Obviously, that rule is not being followed.
WADE: Right. They are breaking the rules and the kids are the ones that are going to suffer for it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Who makes that rule? I mean, that`s a rule. It`s not handed down from on high. It`s a rule somebody made up. And you`ve been...
WADE: Well, it`s a rule, because we know that when children get a chance to stabilize and parents actually work through what happened, which Jon and Kate are not doing. They just rushed on to the next warm body, there`s no insight, there`s no growth here. Their kids are going to pay the price. And this is a devastating price.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Sharon Liko, could the family, the aunt and uncle, take any kind of legal action if they really believe their claim that these kids are suffering as a result of all this?
LIKO: Well, they could file for a parental responsibility, but I don`t know that they would get that far. There is no abuse. There is no neglect. I mean, this is a reality show...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How do you know that?
LIKO: Nobody has come and made any kind of claims, so one has to assume, because if there was, I`m sure somebody...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We`re not talking about blatant abuse.
Natalie Thomas, what we`re talking about here is the cumulative impact of having the cameras in your face -- to this extent.
THOMAS: Absolutely. And the kids, you know, we can only assume, as you point out, that they are going to suffer and we talked about it earlier.
But I do want to point out that we are hearing at "US Weekly" that they will show Jon and Kate and their dating life on the show.
I know there have been contrary reports, but we are hearing that they plan to address that, like they did their -- you know, they led up to their much-publicized divorce. They even did teasers to it. So that is a portion of the show they will cover.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brenda Wade...
WADE: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...there`s a cautionary tale here in my book.
WADE: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The irresponsibility of having eight kids in today`s world, where around the globe there are children suffering from malnutrition and starvation...
WADE: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...millions of kids who end up orphaned, all over the globe...
WADE: Good point Jane and yes...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ...they`re having eight kids and then they get divorced and then they`re not even living in the same...
WADE: And Jane, this is why I have made divorce the number one issue I am addressing. I want to cut the divorce rate in half by the year 2015 because of what happens to children. You know I always have a free...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to cut the number of children...
WADE: I have a free love lesson on my Web site.
LIKO: How can you cut the divorce rate in half? I mean...
WADE: Parents need more support...
LIKO: There is no magic bullet.
WADE: Even parents with one or two kids need support and we don`t have enough support, we don`t have enough training on how to be married and have a healthy marriage.
LIKO: You know, actually, I disagree with you...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m sure you do.
LIKO: This is a perfect example whether you add a population can learn from this. I mean this happens all the time.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We will start discussing this again another time. I promise you you`re watching ISSUES on HLN.
END
