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Jane Velez-Mitchell
Police: Robert Manwill`s Death not an Accident; Missing Girl`s Father Arrested for Fight; Jackson Autopsy Scandal
Aired August 06, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight who killed little Robert Manwill. Officers investigating the case as a homicide, saying his death was no accident. No one`s been arrested yet, but police continue to tell us there`s no evidence he was abducted by a stranger. So will these new details bring the search for his killer closer to home?
And the father of Haleigh Cummings has been arrested. Ronald Cummings was thrown in the slammer for alleged burglary with battery. Ronald allegedly got in a fight with his brother-in-law. In the meantime, while Dad is busy punching it out with family members, his cute little daughter has been missing since February. Could this scuffle have anything to do with her disappearance?
Also, a flurry of new, highly-disturbing details in the brutal gym executions. We`ve also got the creepy video this monster recorded before the shooting. Cops now say the woman-hating gunman had a copy of the gym`s schedule, and it actually circled the dance class that he riddled with bullets.
Meantime, we`re finding out more about his hatred of women: trying to blame them because he hadn`t had sex in 19 years.
Plus, earth-shattering allegations in the Michael Jackson death investigation. "The New York Post" now reporting that M.J.`s mom is demanding a third autopsy. Katherine continues to claim her son was killed, so could this new autopsy lead to murder charges?
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight gut-wrenching new details emerge in the horrific death of 8-year-old Robert Manwill. Cops now point to foul play and say it`s murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DEPUTY CHIEF JIM KERNS, BOISE POLICE DEPARTMENT: Preliminary results from the autopsy give us reason to believe that 8-year-old Robert Manwill`s death was not an accident. The case is now being investigated by the Boise Police Department as a homicide.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Cops still won`t name any suspects or even people of interest, but many are circling back to the night little Robert went missing from his mom`s apartment complex.
"The Idaho Statesman" reports that a neighbor said she heard the mom, Melissa Jenkins, tell police she was working that night. Another neighbor said mom`s boyfriend, Daniel Ehrlick Jr., who has a long rap sheet, often stayed home to care for Robert and the couple`s 18-month-old son.
Hold on a second. Isn`t that the child whose skull the mom admits to fracturing? Up until now, we heard that younger child was in the care of state, but now we`re hearing new claims that the baby was back with mom. We called child services trying to get an explanation. They said no comment.
So the big question: was Mom even home that night, the night little Robert disappeared. Cops won`t say, but reports reveal that the boyfriend is giving conflicting accounts about the night little Robert vanished. And now according to local affiliates, he, the boyfriend, is being treated at a local psychiatric care facility? Does that have anything to do with cops narrowing the field of suspects to people Robert knew?
Here`s the authorities` chilling statement.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERNS: There remains no evidence that Robert was abducted by a stranger.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Police have not named any suspects. It`s important to stress that. Nobody is in custody, but many are now asking where does this investigation go in the wake of all of these stunning revelations?
So much to get to. Straight to my expert panel: Stacey Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Mike Gaynor, retired NYPD detective and president of East Coast Detectives; Brian Russell, forensic psychologist and attorney; Curtis Sliwa, founder of the Guardian Angels and WABC radio talk show host; and Scott Logan, reporter with CNN affiliate KBCI in Boise.
Scott, so many developments. What is the very latest? Scott?
SCOTT LOGAN, REPORTER, KBCI: Well, there hasn`t been any word from police today regarding this investigation, because they have gone off on a new footing after the announcement, that this has become a homicide investigation. They were giving daily briefings to the police and to the public, and hoping to get the public`s help and input, but they say not anymore. They`re going to guard their words very carefully. Ever since they said yesterday that this is a homicide.
Now remember, there was never an Amber Alert in this case, because there was no evidence of abduction. And the police have now said that`s true. There is no evidence of any stranger abduction in this case. Dental records positively identified the boy found in the New York Canal on Monday as the missing Robert Manwill.
And this community is just waiting for the next shoe to fall, so to speak, because it`s been something that, really, we haven`t seen around here. At one point, there were 2,000 workers -- 2,000 searchers out looking for this boy. And what we know now is...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, you mentioned the canal. The canal, the location in the canal where this precious, innocent child was found is about 15 miles from his mother`s apartment complex where he vanished.
Now, "The Idaho Statesman says, according to a neighbor there, the mom, Melissa Jenkins, told cops she was working the night Robert vanished. The mom`s boyfriend, Daniel Ehrlick Jr., who has a long rap sheet, reportedly often stayed home to care for Robert and the couple`s 18-month- old son.
But this guy that you`re looking at has a troubled past. He has a rap sheet that includes battery possession of drug paraphernalia. He`s been barred from being around Melissa Jenkins` daughter.
"The Idaho Statesman" also reveals that the boyfriend has given conflicting accounts about the night Robert vanished. First he accused his own dad of taking Robert. Then he claimed Robert was in the apartment complex hot tub and pool the night the child went missing and that a heavy- set couple invited the child to a birthday party.
Now, Stacey Honowitz, you`re the prosecutor. What do you make of these conflicting accounts?
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: Well, that`s exactly what they are: conflicting accounts, which makes the police at this point want to zone in on what this guy really knows. You know, you have somebody with a horrible history, a rap sheet very long. Probably associated with people that might be -- have criminal backgrounds, and now the police officers have to remain quiet. They made it a homicide investigation. They want to keep the facts and circumstances that they know close to the vest, because they don`t want people giving them information, something that they might have heard on the news that they really don`t know about. That`s the reason why they keep these things secret.
And right now if they have information that he gave conflicting statements, that he really gave -- he said something other than what is true, they`re going to investigate. And that`s what they`re doing now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Curtis Sliwa, one his explanations is that there was a heavy-set couple, including a man with a mustache, who kept inviting an 8-year-old boy to a party, and that the boy -- this is according to "The Idaho Statesman," quoting a neighbor who said that he heard from this boyfriend. The boy kept coming back and saying, "Can I go to the party?"
Now, wouldn`t common sense tell you that you`d go out there and tell that couple, "Hey, weirdoes, buzz off"?
CURTIS SLIWA, FOUNDER, GUARDIAN ANGELS: Of course. Next he will be telling us that he is getting his messages from Charlie Manson in Corcoran State Prison in California.
Let`s face it: this guy has the big "G" for "guilty" all over him. I knew that...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We can`t say that, Curtis.
SLIWA: I understand that. I understand. But look at the circumstances. Here we have a case of a mother -- dysfunctional herself -- cracks the skull of her own stepson, and isn`t permitted to go near him, and then brings into the household this crazy person who has an order against him coming anywhere near the stepdaughter.
And you got to say to yourself, where are the authorities who would force the father, who had custody of the young boy, the 8-year-old boy, to have to give him to the mother? It`s almost like guaranteeing that there would be some kind of a problem. There has to be intervention with cases so obviously dysfunctional like this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes.
BRIAN RUSSELL, FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST/ATTORNEY: Yes. Actually, the cops are saying -- the cops have said we`re -- I think that there`s -- between the lines than what they actually said, because probably to you and to me and to HLN viewers who watch the show every day, it seems to me they`re really telegraphing that they believe there`s caregiver complicity here.
They`re saying they know it`s a murder, and there`s no evidence. They`re not even investigating the possibility that somebody else abducted the child.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, well, there`s always the possibility that there was somebody who knew the child who wasn`t a relative, but go ahead, Mike Gaynor.
MIKE GAYNOR, RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVES: I think I have to agree with what was just said, and it`s what the police didn`t say that kind of shouts out a whole lot. They`re saying, clearly, that there`s no evidence, there`s no indication of any stranger abduction. What does that lead you to believe? So they`re going to examine this case from the inside out, and as Curtis said, there`s no common sense in this...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I want to debate...
HONOWITZ: They also do that, Jane -- excuse me for one second. They also -- you know, the reasons for blurting out certain things is also to put the community on notice, because these people are freaked out. They have 2,000 volunteers. Is there somebody loose that`s abducting a child? So they want to make that clear.
In the investigation that we`ve had so far, we can tell the general public or the community there`s no stranger out there that`s going to pluck your kid and, you know, and kill them. That`s part of the reason why they make that.
GAYNOR: Of course, that may or may not be correct.
RUSSELL: That`s a good point. They may not or may be correct. Maybe not this perpetrator, but there certainly could be others.
GAYNOR: Exactly. It may or may not be a stranger, so that may or may not is what you have to think about. Yes, of course, like Stacey says, the police want to set the community at ease with what may be going on, and I think, rightly so, they`re going to look at this case from the...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to talk about this whole issue and the fact that, according to "The Idaho Statesman," this little child whose skull was fractured, who is now 18 months old, the younger half brother of Robert Manwill, this innocent child who was found in a canal, his younger half brother who the mom admitted fracturing the skull, that child we had thought up until this point was in the care of the state, and now we`re hearing from "The Idaho Statesman," quote, "A neighbor and friend said the boy, Aidan, had been back in their custody for about two months."
She said the couple worked hard to meet health and welfare standards to get him back. What, Curtis Sliwa? Why do they have this child back when it hasn`t even been a year since the child was injured?
SLIWA: Oh, God. Who is looking after these children? How can we put them back in the belly of the beast? The child whose skull was fractured by his own mother in a household where the boyfriend can`t even go next to the step-sister, and then a court says to the father who has custody of this 8-year-old boy, "You must give him to the mother for the summer." Who is caring for these children? My God.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brian Russell, we only have a couple of seconds, but did child services drop the ball here? Why is this little 18-month-old that had a fractured skull back with these people?
RUSSELL: The more I learn about this case, Jane, the more it seems to me like, really, one of the more horrendous failures of child protective services that I`ve ever seen.
HONOWITZ: They made them go through some parenting classes, and they gave the kids back. That`s the standard protocol. That`s what happens.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And a $75.60 fine.
RUSSELL: And look how well it works.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, look how well it works. Wow.
Everyone else, stay right there. Thank you, Scott. More on the murder of this poor little boy in a minute. It`s mind-boggling.
We`re going to show you the disturbing video, also, that provides a glimpse into the troubled life of that woman-hating gunman who shot up a Pittsburgh gym. It`s a shocker.
But, first, the death of 8-year-old Robert Manwill. Officially a homicide investigation right now. Cops determined to find the monster responsible.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KERNS: We believe we will determine how and when Robert died. And who is responsible. And we will hold those responsible for Robert`s death accountable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE SODINI, PITTSBURGH GYM SHOOTER: It`s easy for me to hide from my emotions for one more day. Take a long drive in the car, listen to some music, daydream, or just do some mundane task around the house that really doesn`t need to be done that`s not too important. And there you go. One more day, and one more day turns into one more year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Chilling words from a video posted on YouTube of George Sodini. He is the monster responsible for killing three women and injuring nine others during a hate-filled shooting rampage in a Pittsburgh fitness center. I will show you the rest of that stunning video in just moments.
But first, we are back discussing new horrific details in the murder of adorable 8-year-old Robert Manwill. And now "The Idaho Statesman" reporting a series of stunners. CNN cannot independently confirm published reports that the boyfriend, who may have been watching over Robert the evening he vanished, who has a long rap sheet, this boyfriend, has now been checked into a treatment center for an undisclosed reason.
Stacey Honowitz, what do you make of it if it`s true?
HONOWITZ: Well, he doesn`t want to be questioned or asked anything else. Now he wants to be, you know -- he wants to be kind of absent from the investigation. And certainly, if they`re ever going to charge him with something, with a homicide, if there`s evidence, that he`s settings up some kind of mental defense. That`s exactly what he`s doing. So we`re going to have to...
RUSSELL: He could be racked -- he could be racked by guilt, but that could be because he wasn`t taking good enough care of the child and something happened, or it could be because he did something.
But while we`re on the subject of emotional -- the emotional aspect of this, can I just say that tomorrow night, Friday night, there`s going to be a community memorial for Robert, which is great. It says something good about America that people that didn`t even known him want to come out and express their condolences and everything.
But I just wish that people would get that fired up before these things happen and change the system so that we`ve got child protective services to actually prevent more of these.
HONOWITZ: You`re not going to be able to. You`re never going to be able to. Hey, every time we`re on one of these shows and you talk about these cases, you talk about, you know, child protective services, they`re overworked and they`re underpaid.
(CROSSTALK)
RUSSELL: ... billions of dollars on people`s clunkers.
HONOWITZ: I`m telling you, the bottom line is that you work in that system. Every -- and I`m not justifying this. I`m in it, and I see it every day. But you know, sometimes they have a theory, and their theory is reunification. That`s what they strive to...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Reunification with a mom who cracked a child`s skull?
RUSSELL: If we`ve got billions of dollars for clunkers, we`ve got enough money to improve child protective services.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, yes. I agree.
(CROSSTALK)
GAYNOR: ... one clear problem with child services.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Hold on. Mike Gaynor, go ahead.
GAYNOR: Over the years, I`ve seen one clear problem with child services. Although they are, as Stacey says, overworked and underpaid, they`re poorly staffed in most cases. They don`t have criminal investigators or experienced investigators working a lot of these cases.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Mike, that`s what we`re saying. What Brian Russell and I are saying is, instead of putting all of our nation`s resources into incarcerating more people than any other country in the planet, why not take some of those resources and put it into prevention so that parents aren`t flying blind and also...
RUSSELL: Sounds like a good idea to me.
SLIWA: Jane -- Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So make these child service agencies actually take functioning in the best interests of these children -- Curtis.
SLIWA: Jane, I am going crazy here. We have the witness protection program for the worst degenerates in the world, people who have killed. We take care of them. We give them houses. We resettle their families, we oversee them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right.
SLIWA: They are degenerates. They are enemies of society. Here are children, vulnerable, our greatest natural resource, and you`re going to tell me that a child case worker with just basic common sense couldn`t figure this out? I don`t want to hear that they`re under staffed or they`re overworked. This is common sense.
HONOWITZ: How many times have you seen this? We are always talking about case workers that oversee these cases, and what happens? A child ends up dead.
GAYNOR: And common sense is not common.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s society`s disregard of children. This mom got a $75.50 fine after cracking the little boy`s skull.
GAYNOR: Where`s the commonsense there? Unfortunately, common sense is not as common as it should be.
RUSSELL: After defense of the country, what`s more important for the government to be doing than protecting kids?
GAYNOR: Well, how do you that?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Nothing. There`s nothing more important.
GAYNOR: It`s simply said, but not as easily done. I mean, there are so many inherent problems in something like this. We don`t know where these cases are going to come from. Sometimes they`re first-time actions taken by a parent who lost themselves emotionally.
Look at this horrible situation with the car accident, where a woman kills eight people while she`s drinking and perhaps smoking marijuana at the same time. I mean, no common sense I involved in something like that, and there was no indication in advance that she was capable of doing something like that. It was not...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: By the way, we`re going to cover that story in depth later on in the show, and especially tomorrow because the commonality between that story, this story, and so many others is toxic secrets. What is on the outside, what somebody, a parent, presents to the world, is different than what`s going on behind the scenes.
GAYNOR: Exactly.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And that is a double life. And that is a big, big source of problems in our society. It`s one of the reasons why we can`t stereotype and say, "Oh, a bad mother looks like this" or "a good mother looks like this," Mike Gaynor.
GAYNOR: Exactly.
SLIWA: But Jane, all the signals were here. I mean, we`re putting up the red flag.
GAYNOR: In this case they were. Exactly.
SLIWA: Both of these people in the house were dysfunctional, and we put the children back into the belly of the beast. We are at fault for this. Government dropped the ball on this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Well, a big thanks to our fantastic panel. Fiery debate. We`re going to stay on top of that story.
Also, the father of Haleigh Cummings, the missing child there, heads to the slammer. It`s not what you may think. He allegedly got in a fight with his brother-in-law. Does any of this have to do with this little daughter`s disappearance.
Plus, new reports that Michael Jackson`s mom wants yet another autopsy. Why?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In the "Spotlight" tonight, Ronald Cummings, the father of missing Florida 5-year-old Haleigh, arrested. Her 25-year-old father was brought in early this morning after an alleged fist fight with the brother of the controversial teenage bride who was watching little Haleigh when she vanished.
But what does that backyard brawl have to do with the child, Haleigh Cummings? It`s been almost six months since Ron came home on a February night to find his precious daughter missing and made this frantic 911 call.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON CUMMINGS, FATHER OF HALEIGH: If I find whoever has my daughter before you all do, I`m killing them. I don`t care if I have to spend the rest of my life in prison. I`m telling you can. You put it on the report, and I don`t care.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. It`s OK, sir. We`re on the way. OK, can you give me -- what kind of description of the pajamas that she was wearing?
CUMMINGS: I don`t (EXPLETIVE DELETED) know. I was at work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now Ron charged with burglary and battery. The police report says Misty`s family says Ron went on the attack when he went to pick up Misty, who had begged him to come over. But Misty told cops her brother insisted on coming over after she told him repeatedly not to.
Once again, the stories don`t add up. Something we saw in the case of little Haleigh`s disappearance.
Straight to Art Harris, investigative reporter.
You have been all over this case. What is the very latest?
ART HARRIS, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER: Jane Mitchell -- Jane, as you reported, this morning early about 1 a.m., two deputies, Putnam County, get a call to go to the Kangaroo. It`s a convenience store right near Ronald Cummings` grandmother`s house.
There they find Hank Croslin, Misty`s little brother, who is battered -- or older brother who`s battered and bleeding about the face. And he tells them a story that is right out of something down on the swamps that we`ve been seeing down there. Ronald apparently came out swinging, different than he`d ever appeared in the past to Hank. Crazy acting.
And by the time it was over, Hank was bleeding. His father was involved. Misty`s mother was involved, trying to pull everybody apart. And they wind up calling the cops. They threw (ph) out a warrant against Ronald, and he`s taken -- he`s taken in.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I thought the most interesting thing about the police report, it says that one of Misty`s family members stated she was not sure what Ronald was on, but he was not in the right state of mind. Well, certainly you can understand that, given that his child is missing.
Almost six months ago little Haleigh Cummings went missing in the middle of the night. Misty Croslin was watching Haleigh that night, but claims were made in published reports that Misty had been out partying and drugging the days leading up to her disappearance, claims she`s never refuted.
And the biggest problem, cops say despite repeated interviews with Misty, there are still conflicting reports about the night that Haleigh vanished from that trailer.
HARRIS: That`s right. They cannot pinpoint exactly what time she was last seen or, you know, what the hours leading up to her disappearance, you know -- what they were filled with.
And so here you have a young woman who is no longer talking to police, my sources say. Ronald, who has been trying to schedule another interview with police. That never came down, I`m told, with his lawyer.
And here, suddenly in the middle of the night erupts this violent family drama.
Now, on the other hand, you have Misty now coming to Ronald`s defense, saying that her family came there to take her home uninvited, and, you know, it is a he-said-she-said drama that is unfolding, and we don`t know what relation that has, certainly, to missing Haleigh.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It could just be stress over this child`s disappearance. We don`t know.
Thank you so much, Art Harris.
Inside the troubled mind of a killer. New disturbing video of the woman-hating gunman who shot up a fitness gym filled with women. He hated women. We`re going to show you the YouTube video.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HLN HOST: A flurry of new highly-disturbing details in the brutal gym executions. Cops now say the woman-hating gunman had a copy of the gym`s schedule and actually circled the dance class that he riddled with bullets.
Plus, earth-shattering allegations into Michael Jackson`s death investigation: the "New York Post" now reporting that M.J.`s mom is demanding a third autopsy. Katherine continues to claim her son was killed, so could this new autopsy lead to murder charges?
Jaw-dropping developments in the Pittsburgh gym massacre that left three women dead. Forty-eight-year-old George Sodini, who we now know hated women and was obsessed with them, walked into an aerobics class packed with women, switched off the lights, and shot off 40 rounds before turning the gun on himself. When those lights went back on, three women were dead, nine injured.
Today a shocking discovery: the shooter posted videos of himself a year ago on YouTube. Watch and listen to his chilling words.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GEORGE SODINI, PITTSBURGH GYM SHOOTER: It is easy for me to hide from my emotions for one more day. Take a long drive in the car. Listen to some music, daydream or just do some mundane day task around the house that really doesn`t need to be done that`s not too important, and there you go. One more day, and one more day turns into one more year.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, boy. Sodini also kept an online diary in which he detailed his upcoming murder spree and complained about women rejecting him. Sodini also wrote about women in a note that he left in the gym bag he used to carry the guns into the health club.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUPT. CHARLES MOFFATT, ALLEGHENY COUNTY POLICE: He basically says that -- he complains about he has never spent a weekend with a girl. He has never vacationed with a girl. He never lived with the women. He has maybe had sex a few times in his life, and he goes on like this.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. A whole lot to talk about.
Straight to my expert panel: Stacy Honowitz, Florida prosecutor; Pat Brown, criminal profiler and CEO of Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency; Mike Gaynor, retired NYPD detective and president of East Coast Detectives; plus Terry Lyles, psychologist.
Pat Brown, you`re the profiler. Let me start with you. We just saw and heard this sicko -- this killer, this man who is now dead. What did you glean from watching him and hearing his voice?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, that he was a psychopathic whiner, Jane. Basically he is saying -- he is keeping those emotions in. The only one I can see is hatred because he doesn`t seem to have any emotions of empathy or caring or anything else that`s useful. So it`s just about hatred.
It`s all about himself. He is a big fat whiner. And there`s another video that shows him walking around his house, and it shows a book on the table that says date young women.
When he complains, oh, I`m this poor lonely guy, can`t get a date it`s either because he is too creepy to be around, he`s too cheap to spend any money on women, or he just has a standard to ridiculously high he can`t get anybody.
For example, I have been single five years, and I have this really cute pot belly pig at my house -- 20-year-old Gwendolyn -- and I haven`t heard a thing from George Clooney yet. I`m really angry. I don`t know why he hasn`t called me. I`m going to go shoot them. I`ll face the men down, I`m going to shoot them all up because I can`t get a date with George Clooney.
V-M: And that`s a reference to the fact that George Clooney also has a pot belly pig.
BROWN: He has a pot-bellied pig. Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m just sharing it with the rest of the audience. A good analogy.
Terry Lyles, what I saw when I saw that guy talking into the camera, is a guy who was robotic. He is robotic. He talks like this. He has -- he is regimented. It`s like he is -- he is trapped almost in his physicality.
TERRY LYLES, PSYCHOLOGIST: Well, he obviously looks dead inside and that`s what you are describing. When the emotions die inside, they`re going to die externally.
In other word, our relationships are going to crumble around us. It`s really sad that no one around him -- family, friends, people that were so- called connected to him -- did not see any of these things on-line posted showing obviously his kind of demented way of doing life every day or these listings that he had of his day to day affairs.
It`s really too bad we`re talking about this after the fact with three people dead, nine injured. Somebody should have seen something that was close to him. That`s what`s alarming, I think, here.
MIKE GAYNOR, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: Except that this guy was probably a loner, and there was probably nobody really close to him, and probably nobody read any of the things that he wrote. But the one word that I haven`t heard -- and we`ve hit on all the other words -- is frustrated. This was a serious case of frustration, and as Pat said, that developed into anger.
BROWN: No, no, no. He`s a psychopath. He has been a psychopath since he has been young. He has been frustrated about everything.
GAYNOR: Exactly.
BROWN: His family and his friends and people.
GAYNOR: He is a frustrated psychopath.
BROWN: Yes. But you can`t fix those frustrated psychopaths. So even if you know they`re psychopaths, the serial killers we have out there, the mass murders, there`s always people saying that guy has been creepy for the last 20 years.
But the fact is you can`t do anything because they don`t want help. You can`t give them help. You just hope that they never explode.
GAYNOR: You can`t take...
(CROSS TALK)
STACEY HONOWITZ, FLORIDA PROSECUTOR: I`m sure that now that this horrible tragedy has happened, now you`re going to start to hear from people that say, you know what, I knew him years ago. He was creepy then. This is when it`s all going to come out.
Beforehand nobody is willing to talk. No one has a reason to. But it`s interesting that he didn`t have this feeling towards one woman who, you know, who turned him down. This is really a hatred towards all women, and that`s why he went into this gym, into this room and, you know, opened fire.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Listen, his neighbor said he was a loner, that they would say hi. He wouldn`t answer him back.
This is a case of toxic secrets. This is a guy held a normal job at a law office. He was in the finance department; held it about a decade. He worked out. He is relatively presentable. That`s the outside. Behind that is somebody who, as Terry Lyles said, is dead inside.
Now, take a look at this clip. Sodini posted a clip in which he gives a tour of his home. This is creepy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SODINI: Speakers on each side are large; they double as end tables. Couch and chair; they match. The women will really be impressed.
Come over here. There`s some reading material that we`re all familiar with. To the right is my bedroom; extra computer here, network. I`ll show you the CAT-5 connections downstairs. Ok. There`s -- looks pretty clean. I`m sure she`ll be impressed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
V-MI: Boy, it`s just -- there`s so many thoughts that occur to me. One, look how sterile, how dead the interior of his apartment is; he is talking about this apartment like it`s the Taj Mahal, and no personality, and, again, I think it`s a sign of being dead inside, as Terry mentioned. He also keeps mentioning impressing women, if you noticed, as we pointed out. The book on his table was called "dating young women."
Now, Terry Lyles, you are the psychologist. This sicko to me was a walking contradiction. He hated women precisely because he was so obsessed with them, and he was filled with frustrated desire for him. He said himself he hadn`t had sex for 20 years and hadn`t dated since 1984. This is like, you know, the old cliche. There`s a fine line between love and hate.
LYLES: I commonly say that life is more strange than fiction. I don`t read a lot of fiction. You don`t have to. All you had to do is watch the news.
And, again, it`s sad because there are these people out there that was already mentioned, and they`re all around us, but, I mean, where do the village and community go where we actually work with people every day? We don`t know anything about them. How does this guy keep his job and no one spoke to him?
You have to see somewhere. That`s why there`s HR in companies. Something is wrong with this guy. Try to figure out, quarantine, at least enact something before something like crazy this can happen.
No you can`t stop everything but...
HONOWITZ: What do you do, Terry, seriously? Even if you work with this person and suppose you walk away and you turn to your girlfriend and say is he weird. Everybody has been with someone that said that is the type of guy that`s going to shoot up a post office or something like that.
What do you do? You don`t have the ability at that point to put them into therapy. What do you as an individual do? You never know when they`re going to blow and what`s going to happen.
LYLES: Here`s what you do. You get people to try to reach out to him.
V-M: Oh, please. No. It`s too late. It`s too late for that.
LYLES: It is now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Anything that was going to have to be done with this guy would have to be done in childhood. He also talked about huge problems with his parents. Listen to this.
Investigators spoke about George Sodini`s blog and what it contained.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOFFAT: He`s had the hatred in him. He blames everybody; his mother and everything else -- society. In our opinion there`s nobody who was in that club that could have done anything to prevent Sodini from committing this horrendous act.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Last December the shooter wrote, quote, "moving into Christmas again. No girlfriend since 1984, last Christmas with Pam was in 1983. Who knows why? I am not ugly or too weird. No sex either since July 1990 (I was 29). No [BLEEP]. Over 18 years ago."
This guy clearly has a victim mentality. Pat Brown, he blames everybody else, but he never looks at himself and asks why are women rejecting me? Is it something about me?
BROWN: Yes, exactly. This is a very psychopathic behavior, and we see in many, many psychopaths the same thing. They`ll call all women sluts and whores because they`re not getting what they want from those women.
And because they want to put somebody down, and they kind of idolize men in a strange way because they failed even in that category. But they think women are below them, and they can`t understand why they can`t control women.
That`s why we have so many serial killers. Who do they go after usually? Women.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Pat when you say psychopath, that`s just a word. What does that mean? What does that word mean?
BROWN: Well, a psychopath is someone who has -- somewhere along his development -- like you said, by the time he is a child, 6 or 8 years old, he`s already locked in. He has already begun to hate the world. He has lost his empathy. He wants to manipulate and control everything because he feels like he is not getting his due. That`s when he is a child.
HONOWITZ: Can I ask one question?
GAYNOR: He doesn`t have a conscience.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Go ahead Stacey.
HONOWITZ: This is what I don`t understand.
GAYNOR: He has no conscience -- that`s what a psychopath is all about.
HONOWITZ: Pat, this is my question.
You are saying he is a psychopath that was locked in from when he was 6 or 8 years old. He seemed to have a desperation; he couldn`t get a date.
Suppose he dated until ten years ago. Suppose he had girlfriends. Would he still have that mentality?
BROWN: Yes. Exactly. That`s the point. He would still have that mentality until the day he died. It doesn`t matter if he got a girl and dated for five years.
LYLES: But he doesn`t have to act out on it.
BROWN: If he had a woman and she left him because he treated her badly, he`ll claim it was her fault.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: If he had therapy, it might have helped...
BROWN: Makes No difference.
LYLES: He might have killed the therapist.
BROWN: He might have lied to the therapist, lied to everybody, and gone on his own way doing exactly what he wanted to.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to go. We will continue to base (ph) this -- thank you fabulous guests.
Cops say a fatal crash that left eight dead was caused by a woman driving while high and drunk, but now her husband is fighting back. This story is absolutely bizarre.
And new reports that Michael Jackson`s mom not happy with his autopsy results. She actually wants a third autopsy. What exactly does she expect to find?
We will examine the latest in the Michael Jackson controversy and interview a famous author.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Jackson`s mother is demanding -- get this -- a third autopsy. Katherine continues to claim her son was murdered. So will this new autopsy find signs of foul play?
That`s coming up.
But, first, "Top of the Block" tonight: a heart-broken husband fights back. Dan Schuler, who was married to the woman who drove on the wrong side of the highway killing herself and seven others, including children, is fighting claims that his wife was driving while very drunk and high on marijuana.
Diane Schuler died in the crash, which also killed her daughter, three nieces, and three strangers in another car. But her husband and his attorney are now taking on cops` claims that she was very intoxicated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANIEL SCHULER, DRIVER`S HUSBAND: I go to bed every night knowing my heart is clear. She did not drink. She`s not an alcoholic. Listen to all that. She is not an alcoholic my heart is restless every night when I go to bed. Something medically had to have happened.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: They`re arguing she was suffering from diabetes, a tooth abscess, or even possibly that she had a stroke while driving.
It`s a horrific story, and it looks like the legal fall-out is just beginning. Here on ISSUES we`re going to have complete coverage of this wild controversy tomorrow, so please join us for that.
That is tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Tonight: a startling twist in the Michael Jackson death investigation. The "New York Post" reports Michael`s distraught mom, Katherine, looked at the results of the private second autopsy. She, quote, "wasn`t happy with what it did not reveal to her."
Remember, this is the very autopsy ordered by Michael`s family.
So now Katherine reportedly wants a third autopsy. Just what was she hoping to learn? Katherine spoke to Geraldo Rivera on Fox News.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GERALDO RIVERA, FOX NEWS ANCHOR: How do you feel about the fact that this Dr. Conrad Murray is apparently taking the fall for everything that happened?
KATHERINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S MOTHER: All I know that my son is dead and I don`t think he just died of natural causes or whatever. He`s too young for that, but something happened. I don`t know what it was, and I can`t say.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Katherine is reportedly willing to hire a fourth or a sixth pathologist until she gets quote, "the desired results." The "New York Post" implied that result is evidence of foul play and a potential murder rap. The "Post" claims the third autopsy should be completed before the weekend.
Now, does all this explain why we haven`t heard anything official about a burial for Michael? Will Michael ever rest in peace?
Well, now "Entertainment Tonight" says, the family has finally decided to bury him at Forest Lawn Cemetery in Los Angeles. Not at Neverland.
Plus, late word that Dr. Arnie Klein, Michael Jackson`s friend and dermatologist, might not be backing down on his bid to have a say in how the Jackson children are raised.
Straight to my fantastic guest, Tanya Acker, attorney and blogger for "The Huffington Post." And I am extremely delighted to welcome my buddy from the Jackson trial, J. Randy Taraborelli, he is the author of this amazing bio, "Michael Jackson: The magic, the madness, the whole story." Randy, it`s great to see you.
J. RANDY TARA TARABORELLI, AUTHOR, "MICHAEL JACKSON: THE MAGIC, THE MADNESS, THE WHOLE STORY": Oh, it`s great to see you too, Jane. How are you doing?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m doing great. You know, right after Michael Jackson`s tragic death, I wanted re-read your book. And I actually went to the bookstore looking for it only to find out that it was sold out, so I`m so glad you`ve republished it with updates. It is recognized as the bible on Michael Jackson.
Randy, you know so much about him. You`ve known him for so long.
TARABORELLI: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Since he was a kid, since you were a kid. The biggest shocker in this tragedy are the reports that Michael needed a surgical knock-out drug to go to sleep. What do you know about the "King of Pop" and Diprivan?
TARABORELLI: Well, I know that the first time, Jane, that I heard about the Diprivan was about a year ago when I was doing a story on Michael`s 50th birthday. And I have I to tell you that at that time, Jane, I really didn`t believe it was true because I knew how dangerous it was. And I also knew how much Michael loved his children. And I just could not believe that he would be willing to take that chance with Diprivan.
But apparently he was willing to -- from what we`re hearing -- and it just goes to show you how absolutely desperate this man was for a good night sleep.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think, Tanya Acker, that this third autopsy that Katherine wants is going to make any difference? I mean, there was the coroner`s report. There was her private autopsy. How many times are you going to subject his body to this examination?
TANYA ACKER, ATTORNEY: I actually don`t think it`s going to make a difference, Jane. But by the same token, I think we can appreciate where this need -- where this impulse is coming from. I mean, her son died horribly prematurely while surrounded by influences that she and certainly many others, viewed as mysterious. And so of course, there`s going to be this need to put it all to rest. She needs closure and she clearly has a certain narrative in her head that she wants to see played out.
I don`t know that there`s any evidence for that, but there is very good evidence that at least the people around him were not handling his medical needs in the appropriate fashion. Everybody -- every medical professional should have realized that this man was an addict and he should have been treated as an addict.
As a physical disease, that it wasn`t just in his head. And the notion that they were just continuing to pump him with drugs, it`s something that, of course is going to upset his family, because he did die needlessly and prematurely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What made Michael Jackson the man he was when he died? Many of his friends and family believe that horrific tragic accident in `84 at a commercial shoot for Pepsi was the event that sparked his addiction of painkillers. But not until "Us Weekly" released this graphic and shocking video from behind the scenes at the Pepsi commercial shoot -- the Pepsi commercial shoot in `84 -- could the public really conceive of the pain and the suffering.
Randy, look at his head, it is on fire.
TARABORELLI: Yes.
You know what, Jane, I was actually there that night. I was there for the taping of that commercial. I witnessed that and I actually went to the hospital after it occurred. And I saw Katherine and Joe there and talked to them about it. We all knew that Michael was in a lot of pain.
But I can tell you this. Interestingly enough, they offered Michael Percocet that night. He refused to take it he said, because he just did not want to become addicted to drugs.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, stay right there.
We are going to dive deep into the tragic death of Michael Jackson with the expert, the man who knows more than anybody else -- J. Randy Taraborelli.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LARRY KING, HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": And burial now -- the California law says you have to bury in a cemetery, right?
JERMAINE JACKSON, MICHAEL JACKSON`S BROTHER: That`s pretty much, yes, but as you know, the ones that make the laws -- they can also change them, too. I would love to see him here.
KING: Do you have a place for him here?
JACKSON: Yes, there`s a special place right over near the train station right over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael`s brother, Jermaine saying, Michael should be buried at Neverland; "Entertainment Tonight" now reporting he will be buried at Forest Lawn in Los Angeles.
Now, at the custody hearing on Monday, Dr. Arnie Klein, Jackson`s dermatologist and friend, made a shocking surprise move to be involved in the upbringing of the two oldest children, Prince and Paris. The judge turned him down flat.
But, now apparently he is not giving up. TMZ caught up with his attorney last night. Listen to this one.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARK VINCENT KAPLAN, DR. ARNIE KLEIN`S ATTORNEY: We`re going to file something that would mean (INAUDIBLE) this September.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok, so there will be another filing?
KAPLAN: There will be.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ok, and yes, you can give any other details concerning the...
KAPLAN: Not right now, we agreed that we would not file it before September 1.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tanya, the judge said no because Dr. Klein wasn`t a party to that case. He`s not the parent. Well, there`s been rumors that maybe he is. What does he need to do to be involved in these children`s upbringing?
ACKER: Well, I suppose he could try to make a claim that he is the biological parent and try to prove it and then try to worm his way in. I don`t mean to be so pejorative, but I actually do.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You mean a DNA test?
ACKER: Yes, I mean he`s -- the bottom line is at the end of the day what matters is what`s in the best interests of the children. And the notion that -- even if there isn`t a DNA there, even if his biology does show that he`s a match, I just have a hard time understanding how he can make a compelling case that`s in the best interest of these children to be with him...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, Randy...
ACKER: ...I think everybody needs to sit down and settle down about this.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Do you think Dr. Klein is the father?
TARABORELLI: Jane, I don`t think Dr. Klein is the father. But in this case who knows?
I mean, this guy is obviously not going away any time soon. He has injected himself into this case. He has been told that he has no standing in it, but, yet, he remains.
He has been purposely elusive about this and evasive. I mean, he will not give us a straight answer and instead he says to the best of his knowledge he is not the biological father. Well, what does that mean? I don`t even know.
(CROSS TALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, he was friends with Debbie Rowe. He was Debbie Rowe`s boss. She`s the biological mom. Kind of makes sense that he would be the biological dad, wouldn`t it, Randy?
TARABORELLI: Well, it will -- it does make sense, but, you know, I think the best person to answer the question would be Debbie Rowe and she has not come forward and so we really don`t know.
But which -- I guess what`s compelling about this thing is that this man keeps coming back for more. And whether he -- maybe he wants attention. Maybe he wants to be in the headlines, or maybe he is the biological father. I think time will tell.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. I think, sometimes you got to follow the money. Ten seconds, Tanya.
ACKER: Seriously, I mean, I do think that we really need to question the motivations of somebody who continues to inject himself in this debate in this way...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right.
ACKER: ... these children need to move on with their lives.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree. Thank you, fabulous panel, great to see both of you.
It is not just Michael Jackson, millions of people across America are grappling with addiction. I`m one of them. In my new book "I Want" I revealed details of my own personal battle with alcoholism and how I finally got sober 14-and-a-half years ago. It`s a recovery memoir due out this fall.
You can preorder right now. Click on CNN.com/Jane and look for the preorder section. This book is about other addictive behaviors that surface after I got sober; everything from relationships to sugar. I`m sure you`ll relate to it. There`s a few shockers too.
You`re watching ISSUES on HLN.
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