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Campbell Brown
Health Care Debate Heats Up; Stuck on a Plane
Aired August 10, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered -- 47 people trapped on a plane overnight, the airline refusing to let them off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There were at least two babies nearby me who cried and screamed almost the whole night. The smells were getting worse. The bathroom was getting worse.
BROWN: Continental Airlines and ExpressJet on the defensive tonight. What were they thinking?
Also, is this any way to get to the truth about health care reform?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How dare you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Come on.
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I will tell you about conspiracy. It reads like something that was thought up in the early 1930s in Germany. It is not good...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My biggest fear is, this is going to get rammed down our throats.
BROWN: Enough with the shout fest. We're turning down the noise and separating fact from fiction in this health care debate.
Plus, is everything you have ever heard about exercise and weight loss wrong? "TIME" magazine says, work out all you want; it won't help you drop the pounds.
And Kate Gosselin speaks out -- why the star of "Jon & Kate Plus 8" had a TV breakdown.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hey, everybody. Those are the big questions tonight. But we're going to start, as we always do, with the "Mash-Up." It is our look at the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We are watching it all, so you don't have to.
And we begin tonight with President Obama back in Washington after a quick trip to Mexico. Tomorrow, he takes his push for health care reform to New Hampshire. This is his make or break August, exactly one month before Congress comes back in session. At this hour, Maryland's Democratic Senator Ben Cardin is the latest lawmaker to fend off protesters at a health care reform town meeting happening right now.
You name it, town hall meetings, constituent meetings, Lions Clubs, rotary clubs, schools, churches, they have all become battlegrounds for this verbal war over the number-one item on the president's domestic agenda.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: August is a make or break month in the debate over health care reform. And it is shaping up to be a long, hot month for lawmakers. Tempers reaching a fever pitch in town hall meetings across the country.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president's call for calm...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Not wanting you folks in charge of my health care is my number-one priority.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... is in contrast to an increasingly raucous scene at town halls like this one today in New Jersey.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: More and more town hall meetings are growing angry and sometimes disruptive. Many lawmakers say they have been shouted down and intimidated.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The accusations are shocking.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They are going to give us classes on euthanasia.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Inflammatory.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Adolf Hitler called his program the final solution. I kind of wonder what we're going to all ours.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And often incorrect.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I don't want the government to do it for me.
JOHN ROTHER, AARP: Right now it seems like there's an intentional effort to distort what's in the legislation.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Now, the president called for calm while he was at the Summit of North American Leaders. And borrowing a page from his campaign playbook, the White House unveiled a new Web site called Reality Check.
They also sent out their top health care spokeswoman, Linda Douglass, talking points in hand, to push the president's case. Here she is tonight on message.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LINDA DOUGLASS, COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR, WHITE HOUSE OFFICE OF HEALTH Health insurance reform is going to lower your costs. It's going to protect you from unfair insurance regulations.
It's going to lower costs. It's going to get rid of unfair insurance rules.
We're going to be lowering costs, giving protections to consumers, so that the insurance company can't deny you coverage.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So that more people have coverage, we're bending the cost curve and we're getting insurance reform so that people don't get dropped because of preexisting conditions.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Meanwhile, in Mexico, the president making it pretty clear that there won't be a single payer plan as some have suggested like the Canadian system. He says that just won't work here in the U.S.
Tonight, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton with a moment of lost in translation. While appearing at a town hall meeting in the Congo, she was asked a question that, boy, seemed to touch a nerve. The question had actually been mistranslated from French into English. The answer, though, wasn't, that was in plain English. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN WILLIAMS, HOST, "NBC NIGHTLY NEWS": She thought someone asked her for her husband's opinion of an international matter.
HILLARY RODHAM CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: You want me to tell you what my husband thinks? My husband is not the secretary of state. I am. So, you ask my opinion, I will tell you my opinion. I'm not going to be channeling my husband.
BLITZER: What did it say to you about Hillary Clinton right now?
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I thought that was a very testy moment.
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS: The question had come from a student. It turned out the translator had misstated the question. It actually involved President Obama's opinion. And the student later apologized.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Whoops. The secretary due back in the states on Friday.
News on the Michael Jackson front tonight. The LAPD says it has concluded its investigation into how Jackson died, but, at the coroner's request, they're holding off on making anything public just yet.
In other Jackson developments, a judge is naming a lawyer to represent the interests of the three Jackson children. Also, Sony Pictures saying that it will release -- quote -- "This Is It." This is a movie made from hundreds of hours of video of Jackson during the last weeks of his life. The studio is reported to have paid $50 million for the rights.
And if you think those health care town hall meetings have been ugly, well, they have got nothing on Jon & Kate. Unless you have been on a media fast the past few weeks, you know the stars of "Jon & Kate Plus 8" split up and have had their private lives splashed on just about every magazine cover in the country.
Today for the first time since they split up, Kate Gosselin has spoken out. This is from NBC's "Today Show."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATE GOSSELIN, MOTHER: There is no condo. There is no apartment. There was never any looking for one. Nobody looked for one, bought one, inquired about one. There is no affair. There never has been an affair.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I notice that you still have on your wedding ring. Why is that, Kate?
GOSSELIN: For them. Sorry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's OK.
GOSSELIN: I don't want to upset them. While I have been very real and as honest as I need to be, I don't want to shock them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, we were going to find out how her now ex-husband or soon-to-be-ex-husband, Jon, thought of Kate's confessions but he canceled an interview with E! News that he had scheduled for tonight. We expect we will be hearing from him, though, in the not so distant future.
And that is tonight's "Mash-Up."
Forty-seven passengers stuck on an airplane while at the gate, they were locked in by the airline overnight. Is there anything they could have done? We're going to talk to one of the passengers coming up next.
And the health care debate. You have seen the emotional meetings. You have heard some of the claims. Well, we're going to separate fact from fiction for you tonight and let you make up your own mind.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody.
So, imagine this. You are the passenger stopped dead in one place on the ground at an airport in sight of relief, but unable to get to it because of, ta-da, regulations. This is an outrageous story. Let us put you in the picture.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KYRA PHILLIPS, CNN ANCHOR: Well, nothing against Rochester, Minnesota, but I know 50 people who probably won't be rushing back, passengers and crew of a commuter flight stuck there overnight, not in a hotel or even in an airport, but, get this, on the plane, no food, crying babies, stinky bathroom. Get me off.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you get stuck on the tarmac, most major airlines have a four hours and you're out clause. But that is not the case for smaller carriers -- 47 passengers on a nightmarish flight from Houston to Minneapolis found that out the hard way.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Trapped all night inside a small plane parked on a runway, that's what happened to 47 passengers who boarded what was supposed to be a three-hour Continental flight from Houston to Minnesota's Twin Cities late Friday night.
Thunderstorms caused the flight to be diverted to Rochester, Minnesota. And by the time the plane landed there, all the TSA screeners had gone home and the crew apparently was at its maximum work hours.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And what that meant was that no one could get off the plane, even though they were sitting right there at the gate. We invited Continental Airlines and ExpressJet to come on the show to speak with us what had happened.
They're in Minnesota on this flight. Both declined to appear on the show. Link Christin is one of the people who lived through this incredible episode, grounded, locked in all night long until he and the others were finally let off at 6:00 in the morning.
And he's on the phone with us right now from Nisswa, Minnesota.
Welcome to you. Link, you there?
LINK CHRISTIN, PASSENGER: Yes, I am. Good evening.
BROWN: So, tell me how people were reacting when you found out you weren't going to be left off.
CHRISTIN: Well, we never really found out. We landed.
And we all had the expectation that there was help on the way. I mean, for a couple hours, they told us the storms were still terrible in Minneapolis and that we were going to wait until the storms got better. So, we waited, like good passengers, for a couple hours based on that. And then they started telling us that they had a bus ready, and it's only 60 miles, and that they were going to bus us back to Minneapolis.
And they told us that for the next couple hours. So, the issue really never came up about getting into the terminal, because certainly from my point of view I thought help was on the way.
BROWN: And there were babies on that plane, too, right?
CHRISTIN: There was a young couple with a baby on their lap behind me. There was a young couple with a baby on their lap two seats in front of me.
And the poor babies just did not survive the night. Every five minutes, one or the other babies lost it and screamed and cried. And it was just -- it was just horrible for the parents, and it obviously meant none of us were able to sleep or even take a nap.
BROWN: No. I can't even imagine. So did they give you guys food, water? I mean, did they bring you dinner at least?
CHRISTIN: They did nothing whatsoever. I mean, when we landed in Rochester, the flight attendant yelled back to us, does anybody want a drink? And I think a few people got a drink at 12:30.
And from that point on, we were never offered food or water. And we hadn't had good on the original flight. We had had a bag of pretzels. So, people at that point had gone nine, 10, 11 hours without any food.
BROWN: So, it sounds like that somewhere along the way they knew that the security guys had gone home and what was happening and no one was being honest with you guys about what was really going on.
CHRISTIN: Nobody said anything about what was going on. And, quite frankly, I'm not an expert in this area, but I don't understand the security issue.
I had transferred flights from West Palm Beach to Houston, gone through the Houston airport, gotten on a connection, did not have to go through security again. I have flown hundreds of times, and you don't have to go through security again. They were just going to -- they just let us into the terminal at 7:00 in the morning, and we did not have to go through security again to go back to Minneapolis.
So I think that the security thing certainly sounds to me like a pretext.
BROWN: So, I have read that you got a free drink coupon...
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: ... when you -- I hate to laugh here, but give me a break.
CHRISTIN: It's OK. I sort of laughed.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: Well, in a statement -- in fairness to Continental, in a statement, they tell us that you're going to get a full refund and certificate for future travel. But, I mean, is that fair, given what you went through?
CHRISTIN: You know, I have not assessed that at all. I have been trying -- I think I'm the only known passenger on the flight, so I have tried to help with -- you know, communicate what happened to the media and to the public. And that's what I have been involved in.
So, I haven't thought yet about what is the right thing for Continental to do. I will tell you that my gut feeling is that their public announcement today about a refund and a round-trip ticket is not the right thing to do.
BROWN: Well, I got to tell you, with two little babies on that plane, at least two from at least that you were aware of, I think it's unbelievable. This is just outrageous. So, I appreciate you coming on and sharing your story and getting the word out about this. Thanks for your time, Mr. Christin.
CHRISTIN: It's absolutely my pleasure.
BROWN: So, how do the airlines get away with this? And how can you as a passenger fight back? Can you fight back? We will talk about that when we come back.
Stay with us.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back.
This is a pretty incredible story, 47 sweaty, unhappy, hungry, fidgeting, incredulous passengers stuck all night inside a locked-down jet on the ground in Minnesota. At the gate -- they were at the gate, but they were not allowed to go inside the airport terminal. So, why does this keep happening again and again? And what can you do to fight back?
Here to answer that is Kate Hanni of the group FlyersRights.Org joining us.
Kate, I fly a lot. So, this punches all my buttons. I fly a lot with my kids. So, just the thought of it makes me crazy. But what can we do if we found ourselves in this situation? KATE HANNI, FLYERSRIGHTS.ORG: Well, the first thing you need to do is take out a camera and take out your cell phone if it has video capacity and you need to document with video or photographs everything that happens on the plane, because if there is ever a need for you to confront the airline, you're going to be put in a position of having to prove what happened because the airline will have plausible deniability around the toilets overflowing and things like that.
Secondly, I have to correct a couple of things that were said early on. You do not have to go through security on a domestic flight when you're at a diversion airport, only an international flight. And, secondly, no call was ever made to the airport by the airline asking for those passengers to be allowed off the plane.
So, from my understanding today in all of the conversations I have had, there was no attempt made. Now, what the passengers could have done and what we advise them to do is, first of all, call our hot line, because if they do, and they're stuck, we will call the airport manager and we will get 911 or any resources we need to out to that plane to take care of them.
Our hot line is on our Web site, FlyersRights.Org. And, secondly, what they can do is, they can get a petition of people that want off the plane and they can say we have had enough. And then they can also warn the flight attendant or flight attendants in this case, only one of them, that in a half-hour we're going to do an appropriate nonviolent revolt.
And what other passengers have done in this situation is they have banged the baggage bins and stomped their feet and been very, very loud until finally the pilot and flight attendant relent and say, OK, we're going to get you off the plane.
BROWN: That scares me a little bit, though.
(CROSSTALK)
HANNI: It's absurd.
BROWN: Yes, it is. Let me make sure I get to the statements from both Continental Airlines and ExpressJet here, so bear with me.
HANNI: OK.
BROWN: Continental Airlines -- we invited both of them, by the way, to appear on the show. Both refused to come on the show.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But they gave us these statements, saying -- quote -- this is from Continental -- "We are working closely with ExpressJet to review and quickly resolve the issues surrounding this extended delay, as we recognize that service provided to customers on this flight was completely unacceptable. Continental takes responsibility for the care of its customers. We're reinforcing with our regional partners the importance of adhering to our customer-first commitments that are required as part of our agreements."
ExpressJet is their smaller airlines affiliated with Continental. They say -- quote -- "ExpressJet's priorities were ensuring customer safety during severe weather and following all federal regulations at the airport facility. We apologize for the extended delay and inconvenience that these customers experienced."
I guess...
HANNI: Well...
BROWN: I mean, it's an apology from both of them. What's your reaction here?
HANNI: Well, there's dishonesty in the apology.
First of all, the passengers that got off the plane screamed at the customer service agents in the airport, who then told them to call Continental's customer service, who then told them, don't call us, it's not our fault, it's ExpressJet, and we have no relationship to them.
So, then they were passing the buck on and on. Early on, there was no culpability, no responsibility taken. Secondly, there are no federal regulations that say they cannot take passengers safely off a plane. That's ludicrous.
You can always get passengers off a plane with the people-mover buses, with portable stairs, or pulling up to a gate. It only took one phone call. So, this is the same disingenuous argument that we hear on our hot line and from the thousands of people that have experienced this.
I have to tell you, I just put out a press release this morning for June stats. There were 278 aircraft that sat for three, four, five, six, seven, and eight hours on the tarmac just in the month of June. It's the second worst month since they started recording the data.
And so we're pushing for congressional mandate, because the airlines clearly won't fix this themselves. We have bipartisan legislation that's moving its way through Congress. It's excellent. It would take care of all of the things that happened in this event with the airline and the airport. Get the passengers off in three hours. The airport would have to have an emergency plan.
All right, well, Kate, we will be interested to find out what happens here as this moves forward, because my guess is these passengers are not going to sort of accept the drink coupons quietly.
HANNI: Well, they're not going to accept it. And, by the way, Link is a law professor. So, he and I had a lodge conversation about the inability of passengers to get relief in the courts.
BROWN: Right. HANNI: So, I think you're going to see some more media out of this. We're holding a stakeholder hearing. Link will actually be testifying September 22.
BROWN: OK. Kate, appreciate your time tonight. We have got to go, but thanks for chatting with us.
HANNI: Thanks so much.
BROWN: And when we come back, a tourist hot spot turned into a disaster area. Look at this. What brought down a six-story hotel? Just ahead in tonight's "Download."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: And now we're going to take a look at some of the other must-see stories of the day. In Atlanta, with tonight's "Download," the host of HLN's "Prime News," Mike Galanos, joining us.
Hey, Mike.
MIKE GALANOS, HEADLINE NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Hey, Campbell.
Let's get right to it, a wide range of stories. Let's start with this. After several days of uncertainty, it's confirmed tonight. U.S. intelligence now believes a CIA missile strike last Wednesday did kill Pakistan's Taliban chief, Baitullah Mehsud. That's what a senior U.S. official tells CNN. Now, Mehsud's death is considered a severe blow to the Taliban in the entire region.
Well, for the first time, we're hearing the 911 calls from Saturday's deadly midair collision of a sight-seeing helicopter and small plane between New York City and New Jersey. Let's give it a listen.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: Nine-one-one operator. Where is your emergency?
CALLER: In Hoboken, New Jersey, in the Hudson River. A helicopter just landed on the corner of Fourth and River Street.
911 OPERATOR: Fourth and River Street. Stay on the line. Do you see anybody injured?
CALLER: Oh, my God, they're probably totally injured.
911 OPERATOR: OK, it landed or it crashed?
CALLER: It's gone. It crashed.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
GALANOS: You can hear the bit of growing panic there. Now, nine people died in the crash. Today, divers found the wreckage of the plane at the bottom of the Hudson River. This is a sad one to watch, Campbell, a failed rescue effort on a beach near Miami, Florida. Two whales, a mother and her calf, beached themselves today. People swimming nearby tried to steer them back out to sea. But it was two late. This is Mother Nature in your lap and there's not much they could do. The mother died. Wildlife officials decided to euthanize the baby whale. Basically, the baby couldn't survive without mom.
Now, a necropsies will be performed to try and figure out why they beached themselves in the first place. Dramatic video you showed before the break. It's out of southern Taiwan. Take a look again. Floodwaters washed the land right out from under a six-story hotel. That's the aftermath, causing the whole thing to topple out into the river.
Fortunately, the building was completely evacuated before the disaster struck. Now, why, you ask? Well, across Taiwan, 15 people have died, hundreds more unaccounted for, after a typhoon caused the worst flooding there in 50 years.
And, finally, this. They wanted a thrill. They got it, a little more than they bargained for -- 24 people ended up stuck upside down 40 feet up in the air. These are live pictures. This rescue is still ongoing. This is California's Great America. This ride malfunctioned.
Now, the good news, at least they weren't upside down. The ride is called Invertigo. It stopped. Still don't know why. Now, this started, Campbell, about 1:40 Pacific, so 4:40 Eastern. You're looking at almost four hours for some of these people. I believe last count that I saw, 11 people had been rescued. So, whoever is last to come off this thing is going to be there probably seven, eight hours dangling.
BROWN: Oh, my gosh.
GALANOS: Feet dangling there.
BROWN: Are you sure they're right side up? Those people kind of look upside down to me, Mike.
(CROSSTALK)
GALANOS: I'm looking right along with you. You could be right. I think they're at a 45 degree angle. I'm seeing feet. Are you seeing heads upside down, Campbell?
BROWN: Those poor people.
GALANOS: I know.
BROWN: All right, Mike Galanos for us tonight.
Mike, we will see you tomorrow.
GALANOS: Yes, we will see you, Campbell. If you think you can exercise and those unwanted pounds will just melt away, well, think again. Coming up, new research, new depressing research that could shake up a lot of workout addicts.
And 10 days into August, and the dog days of summer are turning into a heated debate over health care. We're going to take you inside these town halls. It's getting crazy out there.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: All across America, emotions are red hot over health care. And with August, the make or break month, we are drilling down on the facts here. Looking at some of the myths, trying to help you separate fact from fiction and figure out what is really on the table.
The debate has been going on now for weeks, but anger on both sides far from cooling down. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Health reform critics continue to express their anger at town meetings. This one by Senator Tom Harkin.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not --
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And ads for and against the president's health care plan are filling the airwaves. Newt Gingrich added his voice to the chorus of health reform critics who suggest the Democratic plan would encourage some seriously ill seniors to end their lives. The president called that claim an outlandish rumor.
OBAMA: That's simply not true.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Recently loud protests have erupted at health care reform town hall meetings where members of Congress and cabinet members have been angrily shouted down. In an opinion piece this morning in "USA Today," Pelosi and Hoyer say, "Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It reads like something that was brought up in the early 1930s in Germany.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: How dare you?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I want to know if it's coming out of my paycheck. Yes or no?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Health care no. Health care no.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: All right. Good old-fashioned debate. Here to help us, though, fact check some of the claims that a lot of people are making right now is the editor of PolitiFact.com, nonpartisan group. They, of course, took home a Pulitzer Prize for investigating hundreds of political claims that were made during last November's election. And Bill Adair is joining me right now from Washington to walk through all this for us.
Bill, thanks for being here.
BILL ADAIR, EDITOR, POLITIFACT.COM: Thanks for having me.
BROWN: want to start with something that got a lot of attention. This is a statement that former Alaska Governor Sarah Palin made, a recent post she had on her Facebook page. And she wrote, "The America I know and love is not one in which my parents or my baby with Down Syndrome will have to stand in front of Obama's death panel so his bureaucrats can decide based on a subjective judgment of their level of productivity in society whether they are worthy of health care."
I mean, it's pretty clear what she's saying here. Where's it coming from? Is this true or false?
ADAIR: Well, we rated that one our lowest rating "pants on fire" on our truth-o-meter on PolitiFact.com. And the reason is there's just no such thing in the health care bills. I mean, there -- it's really not clear exactly what she's referring to. We think that she's referring to something called comparative effectiveness research which is essentially a panel that would make recommendations on the best kinds of treatments. But the bill makes clear that panel is not binding on any health care decisions made for people covered by the plan. So there's another thing that's related about euthanasia that's --
BROWN: Let me ask you about that because it's not just coming from her. You've heard this claim made a number of times that Obama's plan will provide euthanasia.
ADAIR: Yes, and that's not true, either. We also rated that claim "pants on fire." What they're referring to there is that the bill does include a provision that provides patients an option to get end of life counseling earlier than in the past, or I guess for the first time. It's not required. It doesn't tell people to end their lives. It's simply a counseling session to say to people, here, you know, as you get near the end of your life, let us help you make some of these end-of-life-decisions.
BROWN: All right. Let me go on to the next question here. And this is one that's been raised repeatedly during the debate. How much this plan is really going to cost. Democratic Representative Russ Carnahan alleged, and here's his quote -- "The Congressional Budget Office most recently came out and analyzed the current plan and said that it was not only deficit-neutral, but that over ten years it would create a $6 billion surplus." Is that true?
ADAIR: No, that's not true either. That also, that one gets a false on our truth-o-meter.
This is kind of based on some hopeful budgeting by the Democrats. What they've done is take a CBO report, the Congressional Budget Office, which is sort of the gold standard for estimating costs and then added out a pretty hopeful assumption that Congress every year will approve this Medicare fix. That's not what CBO said, though, so we rated that one false on our truth-o-meter.
BROWN: And CBO, the Congressional Budget Office, has been causing a lot of problems on this for the White House for saying, not quite so. That's not quite how it is to many of their claims, haven't they, on some of this cost stuff?
ADAIR: Well, exactly. And that it's really important I think for people to look at unbiased objective numbers about the cost. And the CBO, as you noted, has indicated there is a huge cost to this program. I think the one that Congressman Carnahan was referring to put the -- said that it would create a deficit of about $239 billion. So it's important to look at the numbers and not do some sort of hopeful accounting.
BROWN: All right. On this last one, let's go quickly here, Bill. But I want to get to it. Republican Minority Leader John Boehner, he wrote that in this health care reform plan, "It will require Americans to subsidize abortion with their hard-earned tax dollars."
ADAIR: We gave that one a false on our truth-o-meter. The reason is that the Democrats have taken -- gone to some lengths to make sure that the bill would not use taxpayer money to pay for abortions. So that one gets a false on the truth-o-meter.
BROWN: All right. Bill Adair for us tonight trying to straighten out a lot of the myths we've been hearing and claims we've been hearing from our politicians on both sides of the aisle.
Bill, thank you for that. Appreciate it.
ADAIR: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: When we come back, our panel of political analysts is going to sort out what all this means in terms of the health care debate. When we're hearing this words like evil and death panel, scary stuff, we're going to get to the truth of all this when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Welcome back, everybody. August, as we said a critical month for health care reform. And we are trying to cut through a lot of the noise out there, cut through the bull, if you will, and get to some of these outrageous claims and try to get you the facts.
Joining us now to talk about what's going on in this debate is Cheri Jacobus who's a Republican strategist and a columnist for the newspaper "The Hill." Also, we've got CNN political analyst Roland Martin here with me in New York, and John Batchelor who is a contributor to "The Daily Beast" and host of "The John Bachelor" radio show.
Welcome to everybody. Cheri, let me start with you here. Sarah Palin had said as we talked about in our previous segment that health care reform is evil and that you have to go before a death panel in certain cases. And yet she writes about the health care debate today by saying, "There are many disturbing details on the current bill, but we must stick to a discussion of the issues not get sidetracked by tactics that can be accused of leading to intimidation of harassment. Such tactics diminish our nation's civil discourse, which we need now more than ever."
Explain the shift in rhetoric. Are Republicans now starting to feel that maybe things have gotten a little bit out of hand?
CHERI JACOBUS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Well, first of all, it isn't just Republicans at these town hall meetings that are angry and upset and confused about what Washington is trying to do. And so that's something we need to put to rest right away.
But in terms of sort of turning back the clock, Campbell, this really started when Congress was still in session, a couple of weeks ago. And remember everybody was saying read the bill, read the bill and they said, oh, we can't read the bill, it's 1,017 pages long. And I would like to add that (INAUDIBLE) is 1,158 pages long. They can read both. But Americans started getting a little bit nervous.
Now, can you imagine what these meetings would look like if Obama had his way and he was able to ram through a vote and these Democratic members of Congress had to go home and defend a vote and he wanted them to follow their source. So I think what you have is sort of the culmination of a justifiable nervousness the American people have that Congress is trying -- that Washington is trying to ram this through so quickly. No one was reading the bill. Nobody trusts it. So I think that their discomfort is very, very understandable. But you can't put the toothpaste back in the tube and I think people are going to continue to be vocal and demand answers from the members of Congress.
BROWN: All right. Let me let John get in here. John, you're a Republican but you do things that Republicans are leading the charge on here on this and have gone overboard.
JOHN BATCHELOR, DAILYBEAST.COM: I think Mr. Boehner of the House and Mr. Steele...
BROWN: John Boehner.
BATCHELOR: ... of the RNC...
BROWN: Right. Michael Steele.
BATCHELOR: ... both are unfortunate in supporting the protests at the meetings and have not called for adult behavior. I think it's necessary for the leadership to demonstrate right away that this is public policy not a food fight. And I was really disappointed in John Boehner using the expression a very, very hot summer. I think we all know what that means, and he did that deliberately.
Recently Mr. Steele said that he didn't support the outrageous behavior, but, then, again, he can't control the protest. That's provocative language. Mr. Steele is in a position to call for calm in the Republican Party.
BROWN: So, before I let Roland get into this because I know you got a lot to say.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Oh, you know I'm just waiting.
BROWN: Let me just let Cheri respond to that.
JACOBUS: First of all, to say that all these people out there at these town halls are Republicans again is wrong. And this is not something that's being led by Washington. This is not something that's being led by Michael Steele or John Boehner. This was something that anybody who's been watching politics even a little bit in recent decades could see what was happening.
This massive bill, 18 percent of the U.S. economy, something that affects people so profoundly and their families, again, being rammed through without any discussion.
MARTIN: Hey, Cheri -- Cheri.
JACOBUS: People are angry.
BROWN: All right.
JACOBUS: And to say that this is partisan and all Michael Steele has to do is snap his fingers is just unrealistic.
MARTIN: Cheri, please --
BROWN: Go ahead, Roland.
MARTIN: Just for one night, drop the talking points, OK?
JACOBUS: These aren't talking points, Roland.
MARTIN: They're always talking points.
JACOBUS: We're talking about the American people.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: Sarah Palin contributes to this nonsense by giving a lie. Not a distortion, a flat-out lie. What happens is you have people who are listening to this stuff on radio, on television. And they come out of a politician's mouth, they say, well, that person has to know.
When John Boehner writes that it is going to fund abortions and it is a lie, that is a ridiculous charge on his part. And what you have here, you have individuals who are going to these town hall meetings who are behaving like spoiled brats. This is not the way you conduct yourself. If you want to have debate, is a matter of having civil discourse, it is wrong. And Cheri, you should call it for what it is as opposed to saying, oh, it's -- JACOBUS: Roland -- Roland, I wish that you would --
I wish, Roland, that you would be that strict and that authoritative with the members of Congress that were ready to vote for this thing.
MARTIN: I have been, Cheri. I have been.
JACOBUS: No, I don't think so. But to -- the American people -- to chastise the American people for taking part, I mean, we should welcome the fact and be glad that people are interested enough to take part in democracy. This is what democracy is, and it's not always pretty. It may feel like elected officials aren't comfortable, so be it.
MARTIN: No, Cheri, shouting people down and banging on doors isn't democracy.
BROWN: All right.
(CROSSTALK)
JACOBUS: Calling it un-American and unpatriotic --
BROWN: Hold on, hold on. OK.
JACOBUS: ... isn't worth when politicians see that.
BROWN: All right. Well, to Cheri's point, you did have Speaker Pelosi and Majority Leader Steny Hoyer who wrote in this op-ed that, "Drowning out opposing views is simply un-American. Drowning out the facts is how we failed at this task for decades."
I mean, the language on both sides --
MARTIN: Of course, just like Senator Inhofe called President Obama's speech in Cairo un-American. And I doubt if Cheri could dance Senator Inhofe. Here's the problem.
JACOBUS: You know --
MARTIN: Democrats and Republicans. They -- Cheri, one second.
BROWN: Let him finish.
MARTIN: Democrats and Republicans play this little game of using words to get both sides all excited. This issue is too important to be engaged in the kind of ridiculous language we're hearing. We should have honest conversation about what's in the bill and what's going to be the impact, not politics.
BROWN: All right.
JACOBUS: You know, I think there's a difference --
BROWN: Quickly, Cheri. JACOBUS: There's a difference between elected officials engaging in a little bit of back and forth than elected officials calling American people regular Americans unpatriotic.
BROWN: All right.
JACOBUS: And calling them a mob.
BROWN: OK, guys.
JACOBUS: That's just not right.
BROWN: I know, a call for a little civility here which was what John Batchelor's point was going to be. And I didn't get -- didn't allow you to make it very much. John, we'll have you back and let you make that point once again. But many thanks.
BATCHELOR: I'll just say Edmund (ph) Burke -- Edmund (ph) Burke, Cheri.
BROWN: OK.
BATCHELOR: Edmund (ph) Burke. Edmund (ph) Burke.
BROWN: Many thanks.
BATCHELOR: Liberty without wisdom and virtue is rage and sully and vice.
BROWN: All right.
BATCHELOR: Edmund (ph) Burke.
BROWN: Many thanks to our panel tonight.
MARTIN: Great point.
BROWN: To John, to Roland, to Cheri, thanks guys.
MARTIN: Thanks so much.
BROWN: We'll do it again soon.
The best way to stay slim, to buff it up is to spend as much time as possible at the gym, right? Stands to reason that exercise makes the pounds just fly off. Well, maybe not. You better stay tuned. We'll have that when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: OK, let's get one thing out of the way right now. Exercise is good for you. No question about that. But there is a question, a serious question that's raised by a new study, featured in the current issue of "Time" magazine all about whether exercise is an efficient way to control your weight. This is something that is going to shake up a whole lot of workout addicts. And here to talk about exercise weight control is Dr. Jorge Rodriguez in Los Angeles for us tonight. Here in New York, fitness trainer Kathy Kaehler, along with John Cloud of "Time" magazine who wrote this very depressing piece.
John, I'm going to start with you. Tell me why the entire morning that I spent doing my workout is not going to help me lose baby weight.
JOHN CLOUD, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Well, it's not that it's not necessarily going to help you lose weight. But there is a misperception that exercise plays a bigger role in weight loss than it really does.
What exercise does for people makes everything you said at the top, makes people feel good, good for heart health. People should definitely exercise. But exercise has a secondary quality of tending to make us hungry. We tend to eat more on days when we exercise partly either because we're physiologically hungry or because we want to reward ourselves.
BROWN: Right.
CLOUD: And people tend to underestimate the number of calories that they take in as a reward after they exercise. And so when you look at people exercising over a six-month period or even a 12, 16- month period --
BROWN: And that's what the study did.
CLOUD: Exactly. They -- you know, they compared these people 464 women in the study who exercised for six months with a personal trainer three to four times a week. At the end of that period, these women have lost no more weight than women in a control group. And all those women did was fill out a monthly form detailing, you know, their medical histories and detailing their diet. So that it made them think about what they're eating so those women lost a little bit of weight.
BROWN: Right.
CLOUD: But the exercise group lost no more weight than those people.
BROWN: So, Kathy, you read John's article and then you immediately write a letter to the magazine, like, wait a minute. Explain. What are your concerns?
KATHY KAEHLER, CELEBRITY FITNESS TRAINER: I think I am in agreement completely with the fact that exercise is incredibly important for our lifestyle and to maintain health. What we need to understand is that it's not only exercise. We have to have proper nutrition that goes together. It's hand in hand. You can't have one without the other.
BROWN: Right.
KAEHLER: And with just exercise alone, we can't reward ourselves with a, you know, high-fattening slice of pizza, or something else that's going to counteract what we just did in the gym or be lured in by some of the marketing that takes place in this country with healthy drinks that are loaded with calories or bars. We really need to pay attention to the education and teach ourselves what is the right thing to do to get us to that ultimate goal of our ideal body weight?
BROWN: And, John, do you worry when you look at the cover of "Time" magazine sort of the message it sends to people which is like, what am I wasting my time for? You know, why don't I just jot notes down about what I'm eating if I'm going to lose much weight that way?
CLOUD: Well, I'd be very careful. Even on the cover we say, you know, of course, it's good for you. We try to very careful in the story.
But there is this misperception. I think people have a tendency and I've been this way myself, people have a tendency to overexercise and there's a certain extent to which we, you know, people just get so hungry and they tend to pack on the calories. People also, there's a great misperception about people always say, oh, exercise is going to raise my metabolism and I'm going to add all this muscle and muscle burns calories so much more efficiently than fat.
BROWN: I know. That's what I think.
CLOUD: And it does.
BROWN: It does, yes.
CLOUD: A pound of muscle is going to burn about six calories per day. And a resting body, a pound of fat is going to burn about two calories per day in a resting body. So let's say you work out really hard and you convert ten pounds of fat to muscle, which by the way would be a --
BROWN: It means I can eat an extra Life Saver?
CLOUD: Forty calories. You buy yourself 40 calories over an entire day. I mean, that's --
KAEHLER: One of the things I just wanted to jump in on is that we -- you know, the switching of fat to muscle doesn't exactly physiologically happen. I mean, we're born with a set number of fat cells.
BROWN: Right.
KAEHLER: A set number of muscle cells. And if you become overweight, obese, those cells enlarge. They can even divide.
BROWN: So, let me go to Dr. Rodriguez here to get the bottom line. You are a doctor. What do you tell your patients about this? DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: Well, what I tell my patients -- actually this study has reinforced everything that I've been saying for a while which is calories count the most. And I'm someone, Campbell, who has always had a problem with weight. And I think my uncle said it all.
When I went to Christmas in Miami, which is where we Cubans go, I mean, he hugged me and said you look great but you're a little gordito (ph). And then he said that he walks everyday 40 minutes, six days a week. And what this article also showed is that we have lost that continuity of movement. Sometimes just moving on a daily basis is better than exercise, so we need to incorporate healthy movement, healthy activity into our daily lives.
And don't fool yourself. Thirty minutes on the stair master is killed by one little packet of french fries. It's double the calories.
BROWN: Really?
RODRIGUEZ: Absolutely.
BROWN: Oh, God.
RODRIGUEZ: Three hundred on the stair master, 550, one little thing of French fries.
BROWN: All right. All right.
RODRIGUEZ: So you have to cut down the calories.
BROWN: OK. Well, I'm going to end it there because we all agree, which I love. It never happens.
Kathy Kaehler, John Cloud, really fascinating piece. It does have a lot of people buzzing.
CLOUD: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: So congratulations. And Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, thanks for your time as always.
RODRIGUEZ: My pleasure.
BROWN: The best way to check the pulse of the people, get out on the road. And that's where our own Ali Velshi is with the CNN Express. It's "Money and Main Street" all across America.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: No way to sugar coat this. It is tough out there in this economy. Today we learn gas prices surged 19 cents in the past 20 days. Something sure to make an impact on families and businesses on main streets across the country.
The ordinary people are doing pretty extraordinary things to keep their heads above water. Chief business correspondent Ali Velshi is on the road with the CNN Express. He has tonight's "Money and Main Street" report from Chattanooga, Tennessee.
And, Ali, I know you've been talking with a lot of people about their economic concerns right now. Some there with you as we can see. What are they telling you?
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're in Chattanooga, Tennessee right now. You can see the Tennessee River, a beautiful sunset here, and some great people telling us stories about the economy. And they're not the same stories.
Marilyn here is from Chattanooga. Your husband works in the furniture sales business. And you're really feeling this economy hurting and, in fact, more so now than you might have been nine months ago when the rest of us were thinking it was a crisis.
MARILYN ASHLEY, CHATTANOOGA, TENNESSEE: That's correct. Yes. We've really had to cut back, especially me because I'm more aware of the situation. So I've just made, you know, cuts in my spending.
VELSHI: And little things like coffee on the way home?
ASHLEY: Like driving on the way home I think, oh, I'd like to have a cup of coffee after being out. And I think, well, I'll drive by Starbucks and get coffee at home instead.
VELSHI: You're having a tough time because the economy is down. People aren't buying furniture. But Chris here is a real estate agent. You're actually seeing a change. You're seeing people shopping for houses.
CHRIS TRAINOR, CHATTANOOGA, TENNESSEE: Yes, Ali. I was where Marilyn was six or nine months. You know, it was pretty bleak. But these days we're seeing a lot more foot traffic and have more people purchase homes, too, so it's -- I think we've hit bottom and hopefully we're coming back.
VELSHI: And if things go well for you, things should go well for your husband.
ASHLEY: Absolutely.
VELSHI: People are buying houses.
ASHLEY: I hope so.
VELSHI: They'll buy more furniture and you'll be able to stop and have that cup of coffee.
ASHLEY: That's right.
VELSHI: Campbell, these are the stories we're getting from all across America. We're going to be going all the way to Des Moines, Iowa, stopping in towns in Kentucky, in Missouri, in Kansas, and in Illinois. We'll be bringing these stories to you every day -- Campbell.
BROWN: All right, Ali. We will keep track of you and everybody else you're talking to. Thanks so much. Appreciate it.
Go online for more real people weighing in on our economy and how it affects them at CNN.com/money&mainstreet under the link "Recession Reality."
That is it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" right now.
