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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Nancy Grace on Vick, Fromme, Anthony & More
Aired August 14, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, GUEST HOST: Tonight, Nancy Grace -- the tough talker tears into news of the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE: Breaking news tonight.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: On convicted dog killer Michael Vick -- why is he playing pro-football again?
On Charles Manson follower Squeaky Fromme.
She tried to assassinate a president -- should she be out of prison?
On Michael Jackson's doctors, defense attorneys and why she'll never turn her back on victims of crime.
Plus, her new book is fiction, but it reads a lot like real life -- her life.
Nancy Grace, next on LARRY KING LIVE.
I'm Anderson Cooper sitting in for Larry King tonight.
Our one and only guest, the one and only, host of HLN's "NANCY GRACE." She's a former prosecutor, author of the new novel, "The Eleventh Victim." It's her first novel. And she's a victims' rights advocate.
Nancy Grace, thanks so much for being with us.
GRACE: Thank you for having me, Anderson.
I'm happy to see you.
COOPER: You've already had a best-selling book. You now have you first novel. I -- I understand this took about 10 years for you to actually write.
GRACE: Yes. That's right. Believe it or not, it took me that long, but so much ensued between the time I started and the time it finally hit the shelves at the bookstores.
When I left prosecuting in 1997 to start a show, "Cochran and Grace" at Court TV with Johnnie Cochran, God rest his soul, I missed the courtroom so much. I missed striking juries. I missed going out on the street, investigating crime scenes. I didn't really miss autopsies too much. But I missed the contact with victims and witnesses.
So I started writing this book. So much ensued between then -- I was at Court TV nearly 11 years, came here to "HEADLINE NEWS," ultimately published another book, got married, got pregnant, delivered, nearly died, didn't die.
COOPER: A good thing.
GRACE: And the twins are almost two years old. I finally found...
COOPER: They're 21 months, aren't they?
GRACE: They're 20 -- I just told him that in the break. He did not know, OK?
COOPER: You know, I knew the general time frame.
GRACE: I know everything about you.
COOPER: Yes, sure. Sure.
GRACE: I can't believe you didn't know they're -- yes, they're 21 months and they're -- they're saying words.
COOPER: It's a great age.
GRACE: I'm going to try and surprise Anderson. The twins are here. The twins are here. I want to bring them out together. But if they both sit in my lap, they start fighting each other.
GRACE: So I'm going to have to bring them out one by one.
COOPER: OK. Well, we'll (INAUDIBLE)...
GRACE: And I have the Purell.
COOPER: All right.
GRACE: And you can hold them if you agree to wash your hands again.
COOPER: All right. Well, we'll bring them out a little bit later.
The book is "The Eleventh Victim." I've got to say, the lead character in this book, there's a lot of parallels between yourself and her. Hailey Dean is the character's names. She had a fiance who -- who was murdered, became a prosecutor.
How much of you is Hailey Dean?
GRACE: Well, you know, I didn't start out that way. It -- it's loosely based on what I know. But she is a much, much better person than I could ever be, Anderson. She's cool, she's calm, she's collected. She gets in a lot of trouble in this book because of -- the premise of the book is she's a psychology major. I was a Shakespearean literature English literature major.
And her fiance is murdered shortly before their wedding, as was mine. She reverses -- she changes gears and goes to law school to become a prosecutor, as did I. After many, many years prosecuting and being saturated in murders, rapes, child molestations -- one autopsy table after the next -- she quits, moves to Manhattan and goes back to being a counselor/therapist. And everything is fine, until her friends begin dropping like flies, one after the next, in the same M.O. -- a very unique M.O. -- as her last serial murder prosecution.
COOPER: Is it harder writing a novel?
GRACE: It is so much harder, Anderson. When I wrote "Objection" several years ago, you know, the fact scenarios are laid out for you. You analyze them. You give your legal analysis and critique. You, you know, look into the future and determine what may happen in those cases.
Here, you have to create everything, from the color of someone's eyes to their hair to whether the breeze is blowing. And there's one scene where there's an environmentalist who sits down in the sand late one night down by the ocean. And just describing sitting down in wet sand and the breeze and the moon, it takes a lot more work than commenting on something that already exists.
COOPER: But you liked it?
You liked the process?
GRACE: I liked it. And, you know, I don't think I would have ever finished it if I hadn't pitched my publishers, Hyperion, another nonfiction.
And they went, unhhh, you got anything else?
And I was a little taken aback. I went hmmmm.
GRACE: So, I said well, no, but I do have a -- a partial manuscript, about 300 pages, of a murder mystery. So Gretchen, young, my -- my editor said, yes, OK. I'll look at it. The next day they said we read it. We want two Hailey Deans.
COOPER: Wow! So there's going to be another one?
GRACE: So then I was in the very precarious position of having to finish the book.
GRACE: That's a bad spot. I was between a rock and a hard spot. So I -- I did it. And if it hadn't been for that, I -- I would never have finished it.
And, Anderson, it's not like on TV where you see people kicked back on their front porch with the breeze blowing in their hair and they're having a little herbal tea and the news, you know, flits across and they have -- no.
The twins would be up at 2:30 and 5:30 every night. And I would write when I got off -- off the show until like 3:00 in the morning and get up at 5:30 with them and start all over again.
GRACE: It was hard. It was very hard. But, you know, that's what every working mother in the country does. It isn't easy.
COOPER: More -- more about the book later on.
COOPER: Let's talk about some of the items in the news.
Michael Vick has been signed with the Philadelphia Eagles.
Should he play football again?
GRACE: Well, I think, what's getting lost in the story is looking back at the brutality that was inflicted on -- don't laugh -- the victims in the case, the dog victims. And, Anderson, a lot of people get more upset about animal victims than they do about people victims.
Many of the dogs were drowned, electrocuted. They had female dogs on what is called a rape stand if the dogs did not want to mate and pro-create. And the fighting was absolutely vicious.
But here's the reality. In our justice system, for dog fighting, you don't stay in jail forever, right?
That's for murders, serial murderers...
COOPER: Do you think he's really apologetic?
I mean he's given this interview to "60 Minutes." I saw one clip of it. I don't know if you've seen it.
GRACE: Yes, I have.
COOPER: Do you buy his apology?
GRACE: No, I don't buy his apology. COOPER: You think it's something the lawyers said, OK, you've got to say this, you've got to say that.
GRACE: I think the lawyers carefully crafted what he had to say. I think that he is not necessarily sorry he did it, but he's sorry he got caught.
But the reality is, is you can't keep somebody in jail forever on dog fighting. He had to get out. He's the football player, so you know what?
Go flay -- go play football. That's -- that's all he knows how to do.
COOPER: Do you give -- are you giving him a second chance?
COOPER: He's done his time.
GRACE: He's done his time -- not enough time, I might add. But he's done his time and some of that was in his own home. And I don't believe if he had not been a -- if he had not been a celebrity, he would not have gotten to serve part of his sentence in his luxury mansion, all right?
COOPER: Do you think people pay -- do, in fact, care more of -- of the dogs in this case than -- than sometimes people care about other human victims?
GRACE: Well, in some cases, yes, because dogs -- animals are so innocent. They cannot protect themselves from us, the human, just like children. And those are -- are victims that absolutely have no recourse.
And I think that's why people are so touched and so outraged when animals are taken advantage of like this.
But, look, you can't keep him in forever. He's out. He did his time. I say get on with it and quit giving him any attention.
COOPER: Would you go to a Philadelphia Eagles football game and watch him?
COOPER: All right.
GRACE: I would not pay for a ticket that supports Michael Vick.
And what are they going to do with McNabb? I mean he's -- he's the best. And what a dichotomy. Here he is doing Campbell's Soup ads. He's all-American, scrubbed in sunshine. Then you've Vick over there in the corner, the convicted felon that made dogs fight to the death. Now, that's -- that's certainly two ends of the spectrum for the Philly Eagles.
COOPER: Nancy is answering your questions.
They're coming up.
We'll be right back.
COOPER: And we're back with Nancy Grace, talking about her new book, which is "The Eleventh Victim," her first novel; and also a lot of the big news items of the day.
We talked about Michael Vick. Let's talk about Squeaky Fromme -- Lynette "Squeaky" Fromme, a Charles Manson follower, who's been released from prison, attempted to assassinate President Gerald Ford.
Should she have gotten out?
GRACE: Well, Anderson, I'm very surprised at you, being the thorough journalist that you are, you left a few facts out.
OK. Number one, back in the '60s, as you mentioned, she was a devoted Manson follower. During his trial on mass murder, she supported his defense and showed up...
COOPER: She sat outside.
GRACE: Yes, with an X cut into her forehead. All right. After that, she was arrested on another murder and she was released. Then -- and I believe it was '75 -- she shows up in Sacramento wearing red robes with a gun underneath. She had four bullets in the gun, Anderson, but the chamber was empty. So she fires. And when they grabbed her, she says, "Hey, hey, it didn't go off." That was her defense, it didn't go off.
She tries to escape while she's behind...
COOPER: Well, she tried to escape much later, in -- I think it was 1987...
COOPER: ...she tried to escape.
GRACE: And she also tried to kill...
COOPER: ...to be closer to Manson. GRACE: ...to kill another inmate with a claw-edged, a claw hammer, behind bars, Anderson. So this is not some sweet little girl that was confused and misled when she tried to kill our president.
Now, a lot of people would argue, hey, just because he's the president doesn't make him more important or more valued than anybody else, so she should get out. That is not true. No. Gerald Ford's life is not more valuable than yours or mine. But is he a symbol of our country. And when you look at her track record, she should absolutely not get out.
COOPER: But people who kill others get out all the time.
Does that make it right?
Just because they get out, then she should get -- I don't think they should get out.
COOPER: She was not implicated or involved in any way in the -- the grisly murders of...
COOPER: ...of Sharon Tate.
GRACE: No, not to my...
COOPER: Or LaBianca.
GRACE: Not to my knowledge, she was not. But I think with her track record, her attack on another inmate, trying to kill the pre -- the trying to kill the president, I don't need to bolster that. She tried to murder the symbol of our country. So, no, she should not get out of jail.
COOPER: Charles Manson and six other followers are all serving life terms in connection with -- with the Tate/LaBianca murders.
Do you think any of them will ever get out?
GRACE: I think there's a chance that some of them may get out, not Manson...
COOPER: There's no way Charles Manson is ever going to get out.
GRACE: Not Manson himself, but some of the others. Some of the women may get out.
COOPER: Leslie Van Houten, Patricia Krenwinkel...
GRACE: Her specifically, Van Houten.
COOPER: Why her?
GRACE: Van Houten has distinguished herself behind bars. She has tried so desperately to do good behind bars. She's got the best chance.
COOPER: There's this woman, Susan Atkins, 61 years old. She has, I think, a terminal brain cancer -- brain tumor. She's tried to get out on compassionate release. She has not.
GRACE: She's 61. Let's see, how old was Sharon Tate when she was murdered and her unborn child, who never had a chance?
I'm not impressed. She's 61.
You know, you...
COOPER: The fact that she has a brain tumor, you think nothing -- it should not play a role?
GRACE: No, absolutely not. I don't think any of them should be paroled. It was mass murder.
COOPER: What do you think it was about...
GRACE: But are they going to parole them?
Do I think they should?
COOPER: What do you think it was about Charles Manson that has fascinated people for so long?
GRACE: Well, I think the mystique surrounding him is -- is highly unusual and it created a cult-like following. And he had this -- this gaggle of beautiful young women that surrounded him and loved him. They were all in love with him.
COOPER: Which, I mean, I wasn't, you know, really cognizant when he was, I guess, you know, committing these -- these crimes. I've only seen sort of the tapes of him later in prison giving rambling interviews. It's hard to believe anybody would follow this guy.
GRACE: I know. I agree, looking back. But at the time -- and it's -- it kind of epitomized what many people believed was going on in the '60s. Not to me. I consider him your run of the mill mass killer. I don't think he's special and I don't think he should be paroled.
COOPER: Are -- are most killers smart? GRACE: Oh, no Anderson. That is -- that's for TV. They are not. That's for movies. Once in a while, you'll get a really intelligent killer and they're sometimes very hard to catch. But that's few and far between.
COOPER: It always amazes me is that people talk to the police. I mean, that if are you arrested or brought in -- after all that we've seen on television, after all the police shows where people, you know, try to convince the police...
GRACE: Well, I'm glad you mentioned that, because Hailey gets arrested in this book for all of these murders. And she goes back and forth because she knows, just like you said, don't talk to the police. And she does.
COOPER: If you were ever charged with something, who -- what defense attorney would you call?
GRACE: Well, first of all, I wouldn't need a defense attorney because I would be innocent. And, yes, I would talk to police.
COOPER: But don't innocent people need -- you would talk to police?
GRACE: Yes, I'd probably talk to the police.
COOPER: You wouldn't have an attorney present?
GRACE: I don't think I would have an attorney present.
What's the -- why wouldn't you?
GRACE: Unless I did it, then I -- you're darned right I'd have an attorney present.
COOPER: Is there -- who -- what defense attorney would you use?
GRACE: Oh, you know, now, Anderson, you're trying to get me in trouble with all of my guests on the show.
COOPER: No, I'm not.
GRACE: And pick one. I'd have to roll them altogether, I guess.
COOPER: I see. Oh, yes. I don't buy that for a second. I think you've got a speed dial.
We're back with the best of Nancy Grace in 60 seconds.
COOPER: Welcome back to LARRY KING LIVE. We're talking to Nancy Grace, host of her own hit show on HLN. Nancy Grace, of course, is not afraid to say exactly what is on her mind.
Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP FROM "NANCY GRACE")
GRACE: A 26-year-old newlywed who allegedly plans to rub out her husband. Problem -- uh-oh, the hit man is a cop. Here little girl, you're going to need these in the big house, OK?
All that sobbing and crying and carrying on.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They're going to have trouble proving the Diprivan connection because...
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- because, through the lengthy statements that Conrad Murray has already given to the -- to the police...
GRACE: Yes, what a blabbermouth. It seems to me that maybe the client needs to tell the lawyer to shut his pie hole.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Is that a legal term, shut your pie hole?
GRACE: Yes, that's a legal -- a very technical legal pie -- technical legal pie hole term.
COOPER: I want to talk about the Michael Jackson case, probably, more on the other side of this break. But -- but this is not going to be, if Conrad Murray is, in fact, charged with a crime, this isn't going to be, necessarily, a cakewalk. This is going to be a difficult thing to prove.
GRACE: Well, it will be, because there are no eyewitness or ear witnesses. The -- what happened that evening is still extremely murky. Remember, Anderson, at the very beginning, the story came out that Jackson was with his children and he had a sudden cardiac arrest and fell in front of their eyes and they thought it was a joke. Now we're hearing a story that sounds more like Dr. Conrad Murray, his private, live-in doctor, gave him a...
COOPER: For $150,000 a month.
GRACE: Yes. Gave him a shot of Propofol and -- Diprivan. And, of course, you only have that in an operating room when you're put under. You're given it intravenously. And the moment they take it away, you wake up. So apparently if Jackson had been using it, he would be hooked up to an I.V. all night long, taking this throughout the evening, throughout the night, into the morning and then they would unhook him -- lying there, essentially, like a living corpse. So the new scenario is -- that's emerging, apparently from some of Conrad's lawyers, is that he injected him. He shot him up. And then he went to make personal cell calls.
Now, reports are emerging that he has a stripper girlfriend shacked up somewhere nearby. He may have been on the phone with her. It doesn't matter who he's on the phone with, what matters is he's shooting him up with Diprivan, allegedly, and then not focusing and making private cell calls while his patient is lying there completely unconscious.
COOPER: Well, we'll have the response from Conrad Murray's attorney coming up.
We'll have more on the Michael Jackson case.
And Nancy answers her critics after the break.
Stay with us.
COOPER: In the past, LARRY KING LIVE has reached out to Dr. Conrad Murray for a response to comments about him in connection with Michael Jackson.
Here's part of a statement given to us by his spokesperson: "Dr. Murray continues to cooperate with Los Angeles investigators in their efforts to determine the cause of Michael Jackson's death."
And, Nancy, you were talking before the break about reports and reports are emerging. There -- there's -- nothing has been confirmed, frankly, by CNN -- I mean nothing is really known...
GRACE: Well, I don't believe anything...
COOPER: There's a lot of rumors...
GRACE: ...will be.
COOPER: ...and just speculation swirling around.
GRACE: I don't typically believe anything until I hear it in a court of law and then I still have doubts as to the credibility of the witness. But people are all focusing on Conrad Murray, the doctor. But if he is involved, he's not the only one.
Who's giving him Propofol?
He's not going into the hospital and getting it.
COOPER: The idea that anybody would be taking Propofol...
GRACE: It's not just him.
COOPER: ...in their home is... GRACE: Is outrageous.
COOPER: It's inappropriate. I mean any responsible...
GRACE: It's outrageous.
COOPER: ...doctor will tell you...
COOPER: ...that it should not happen.
GRACE: And when you look at Jackson, look at him. He's a tall man. He weighs about 110 pounds. He's barely eating.
And who would administer Propofol to someone that is so obviously emaciated?
COOPER: The other thing about it is...
GRACE: Not (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: ...it doesn't actually -- from all the anesthesiologists I've talked to, it's not something that actually helps you sleep.
GRACE: It knocks you out.
COOPER: It puts you under. It knocks you out. But it doesn't allow sleep...
GRACE: It's not real sleep.
COOPER: ...that allows your body to actually recover...
GRACE: To heal.
COOPER: And it's an important thing to heal yourself.
GRACE: But -- but I'm looking beyond that. They're going to -- it's a tough case to build -- you asked that earlier -- because it's going to also require a paper case, which I recall making when I was doing consumer protection, anti-trust law with the Feds.
A paper case takes a long time to put together. And if he is shipping Propofol via FedEx or some other method, you're going to have to prove where he's getting it, how he's getting from Texas -- let's just say -- where he lived, to wherever Jackson is. There's -- there's going to be a lot of paper proof in this case, because, again, there's no eyewitnesses, certainly not...
COOPER: What do you make of the fact that the L.A....
GRACE: ...(INAUDIBLE) himself.
COOPER: ...the L.A. County coroner has completed the autopsy, has the results, but is not releasing them? GRACE: I think that's preferential treatment. That's what I -- that's what I think about that.
COOPER: But what's preferential about that?
Isn't -- isn't the argument, perhaps, that -- that, you know, they don't want witnesses or potential suspects -- potential people who may be charged being able to -- to line up their stories once they the -- the autopsy is released?
GRACE: They're going to have plenty of time to do that, as soon as someone becomes a target. Once somebody is an official target, then they have a right to discovery. And as a long story short, once they -- there is a charge -- and I think there will be a charge...
COOPER: Do you think one person will be charged or do you think there will be...
GRACE: I think there will be more than one. I think there will be more than one because...
COOPER: Do you think anyone will end up behind bars because of Michael Jackson's death?
GRACE: Yes. And if it were not Michael Jackson, the answer would be no. But there's so much scrutiny, they're going to have to do the right thing. Look, giving dope to a dope addict, enabling him to die in this manner, is a crime.
COOPER: It's interesting, though...
And you know what, Anderson...
COOPER: It's interesting, though, Conrad Murray's attorney gave an interview to the Los Angeles...
GRACE: I didn't say Conrad Murray.
COOPER: I know, but...
GRACE: I said giving dope. I did not say him, Anderson.
COOPER: But Conrad Murray's attorney has just given an interview to the "Los Angeles Times" in which he said a -- kind of a new line of argument, that Dr. Murray did not know that Michael Jackson -- or did not know what, if any, drugs Michael Jackson was taking before signing on and that once he actually got involved in Michael Jackson's care, he realized that he had a number of unusual issues.
GRACE: Am I supposed to be impressed by that?
Because I can look at Michael Jackson -- and all of his friends, all of his family apparently knew something was wrong, tried to stage an intervention to help him. He resisted, like any dope addict would do. And so everybody knew...
COOPER: Although the Jackson family now denies that ever happened.
GRACE: Right. But here's one last point on him, Anderson. I had the same problem when I would, for instance, have a dope murder. Juries would be thrilled a dope dealer had been murdered. It would be very difficult to get a conviction on that killing, all right?
But if you look at this case, whether Jackson did or did not commit child molestation -- and I, for one, did believe the boy victims. Whether he did that or not is irrelevant, because in this case, someone enabled a dope addict to be doped up and die. And that is a crime.
COOPER: We're going to talk about Nancy's personal life. She has one, yes. And we're getting to your questions, ahead on LARRY KING LIVE.
And you're going to meet the twins.
COOPER: And we are back with Nancy Grace.
And you've spent a lot of time on the -- the Casey Anthony case.
Is that -- the Florida mom accused of -- of killing her daughter, Caylee.
Is this the strangest case you've ever seen?
I mean with...
GRACE: You know...
COOPER: ...with a mother who...
GRACE: ...Anderson, I've seen so many strange cases.
COOPER: But with a mother who...
GRACE: It's hard to identify just one as the most, the strangest case that I have (INAUDIBLE).
COOPER: But, you know, a mother who tells police so many different stories...
COOPER: ...literally taking them around...
GRACE: Anderson, they're lies. Don't put perfume on a pig, Anderson, OK?
GRACE: They're not stories, they're not like fairy tales.
They're lies, OK?
Now, she led the cops on such a wild goose chase. In fact, in a recent development just this past week, the state got the authorization to go in and take a photo of one of Tot Mom, also known as Casey Anthony's, tattoos.
Why do we care about a tat?
Because after the child, her 2-year-old child, Caylee Anthony, goes missing, instead of searching for her or calling police, she goes to the local tattoo parlor, has a very -- and I've interviewed this guy -- has a very extensive conversation with them on several occasions about her next tattoo and ends up getting a tattoo -- I believe it's on her left shoulder -- that says "the beautiful life."
Now, Anderson, I'm sure you, as a fair and balanced journalist, would say, that does not prove murder. I disagree. I think the state would use that to show state of mind, because even if the twins had a fever, I'm not thinking about going to get a tattoo. Much less if they were missing.
COOPER: This gets to what your critics say about you. You are basically convicting people on TV.
GRACE: I can't convict anybody on TV. That doesn't make any sense. I don't know why you said that.
COOPER: Come on. You've heard that criticism.
GRACE: Right, she's convicting them. Why are we having a trial? She's not convicted. Look, I have two syllables to utter to you: O.J. I went out on a limb and predicted he Would get convicted. Did he? Did he? Did he get convicted on a double murder?
COOPER: No, he did not.
GRACE: OK. So did I affect the jury? No, no.
COOPER: I'm talking about affecting the idea. What about the whole notion respecting the idea of innocent until proven guilty?
GRACE: I respect that, in the courtroom. But I'm making obvious deductions that any rational person could make. And not a single night goes by on our Headline News show that I don't stack the cards against me, and put two, three defense attorneys to argue their very, very best, the other side, which they do very effectively.
All of the lawyers we have on the show are not a lot of talking heads that might have gotten a law degree. They have been in the trenches trying cases, winning defense case.
COOPER: What do you make of the grandparent?
GRACE: I think they love their daughter, Tot Mom, Casey Anthony, very, very much.
COOPER: Why do you call her Tot Mom?
GRACE: Because she is a Tot's Mom. Why do you call her Casey?
COOPER: I don't know.
GRACE: I think they love her very much. I think they love their grandchild very much. And I understand that you would do whatever you think you have to do to protect your daughter.
COOPER: It has to be a bizarre -- horrible, horrific situation for them.
GRACE: Awful. Awful. A lot of their critics have argued that they, the Anthonys, have stonewalled police and not cooperated. I don't think we'll know the truth of that until we hear it in the courtroom.
COOPER: The chutzpah though -- I guess you can call it chutzpah of the Tot Mom, Casey Anthony, actually saying she worked in an office, I think it was at one of the theme parks, and actually --
GRACE: Down at Disney in Florida.
COOPER: And leading police to there, down corridors, oh, yes, it's here, and then suddenly saying --
GRACE: It goes this far. They got her at the police station, and she gives them her work number, her office, everything. They get in the car. Can you imagine, she's sitting in the back of the car, going they are actually taking me? They get there. They talk to security. She gives some fake name. They say we don't have anybody by that name that you work for.
They get in anyway. It's all lined up. The police already know she doesn't work there. And all of this goes to her explanation of where she was, what happened, and so forth around the time little Caylee disappears. They go in the building, start walking down the hall, get to where she says her office is, and she turns around and says, OK, you got me. I lied.
If she will lie about her job, what else will she lie about? And that was a piece of the puzzle that didn't even really matter and she lied to such great lengths. And the state will be able to use this to attack her credibility.
COOPER: And for the record, Casey Anthony has not yet gone to trial, has not been convicted of anything. Coming up, what is Nancy's problem with defense attorneys? She'll tell us when LARRY KING LIVE comes back.
COOPER: We are back on LARRY KING LIVE. Welcome. We're here with Nancy Grace, talking about her new book, "The 11th Victim," your first novel, and your show on HLN.
Let's talk about the murders of Byrd and Melanie Billings. This Florida couple, adopt a lot of special needs kids, shot to death in their own home. Some of the kids in the home at the time. It seems some sort of home invasion at first. I mean, sort of gunmen dressed up in ninja outfits. What do you make of this?
GRACE: A lot of people tried to read a lot more into it, such as the victims were involved in a drug cartel, or a business partner wanted to get money, or there was a long-standing feud. I don't think it's that difficult or that elaborate.
Listen, Anderson, when you talk about conspiracies, they are very rare. Nobody can keep their yap shut in a conspiracy, much less an elaborate, well thought out and planned conspiracy. That rarely happens. I think these people broke in because some of them new the family had a safe. At least one of them had worked in the home before in some capacity. And I believe that they knew there was a safe and they went in to rob.
What I don't understand is why they did it when everyone was home. Now, there were theories that someone was supposed to cut one of the conspirator's -- one was to cut the wire to the security video. Anderson, you can see them. How would you like to look out your kitchen window one morning and see a bunch of guys dressed in black ninja outfits running toward your home.
That's what happened. And it's all on video.
COOPER: And a number of people say they thought it was going to be a robbery, didn't think there was going to be any killing involved. The question, did everybody know? Was everybody in on it? What's your thought?
GRACE: My thoughts are that felony murder, which is a felony is being committed, such as robbery, and a death occurs, whether you intended the death or not, you are responsible for felony murder. And I would be interested to know whether these defendants, co-defendants that went in just to do a robbery, if that's the defense, knew that others were armed. So what do they think the others are going to do with those guns, when they were confronted by the inhabitant of the home?
What did they think was going to happen? A tea party? No. And if they say they didn't plan to kill, were they armed when they went in. You go into a home fully inhabited; everybody's home; what do you think is going to happen when you invade the home armed? People are going to fight back.
COOPER: It's interesting what you say about conspiracies. I do think people love to latch on to the idea that there are grand conspiracies out there. Nobody keeps secrets for very long. Do you believe in UFOs, in conspiracies, the government knows --
GRACE: Do I believe in UFOs? Hey, you know what? What's beyond our solar system? Do I know anything about that? No. COOPER: Do you think the government has information or the --
GRACE: I think whenever anybody ever believes they see a UFO, they call the government. Or many people do. So it makes common sense to me that the government probably has a file on thousands of alleged UFO sightings.
Are any of them real? Maybe. Maybe not. I'm sure they have files on UFOs.
COOPER: You don't think they are keeping an alien somewhere in some secret place?
GRACE: I could comment on that but I don't comment on politics.
COOPER: Very good. Do you miss being a prosecutor?
GRACE: Yes, I do. I still do. And I missed it more -- I missed it the most up until the I had the twins. Because I still missed going to crime scenes, striking juries, feeling like I had managed to somehow make a difference, and do something good to protect some victim out there.
COOPER: Did you know what motherhood was going to be like?
GRACE: No. No. No.
COOPER: You can read the books. You can see it on movies. You can talk to friends.
GRACE: I knew I wanted a family my whole life. But after -- I came from a very, very happy home. And after Keith was murdered, I never thought -- I didn't want to get married after his death, after his murder. I just didn't want to put myself out there and have the whole world just blow up.
COOPER: What happened to the person who murdered him?
GRACE: Well, amazingly, he's been paroled. And I didn't know anything about it until one of my viewers e-mailed me that he had been paroled. And then I checked --
COOPER: They didn't call you, didn't tell you?
COOPER: Do you know what he's doing now?
COOPER: Do you think about it?
COOPER: But you don't want to know details of his life? GRACE: It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter if he goes on to do something wonderful. It doesn't matter if he commits another crime, goes back to jail. What he's done is done. Nothing can ever change what happened.
And that's very, very hard to live with. And it doesn't just affect obviously Keith and his family. Both of Keith's parents have passed away now. And they went to their graves with broken hearts. And the wake of pain that one unthinking person leaves behind, he'll never know.
I never wanted to put myself out there for that kind of hurt again. And I really had tunnel vision all those years, prosecuting like a machine, like a robot. And luckily, my husband, David, loved me for so many years, and I loved him back.
And then finally it was like a cloud lifted. And we married. And I never thought I could be this happy. I knew I wanted a family. But until I met Lucy and John David, I didn't -- I just thought I knew what love was. But I didn't know.
COOPER: We're going to meet Lucy and John David coming up. We'll be back in 60 seconds.
COOPER: She has money, fame, success, but there's a whole other realm of success, when you are parodied on "Saturday Night Live." Take a look at Nancy Grace.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Joining us from Microsoft is customer representative Bethany Blake.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for calling customer support. My name is Bethany.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bethany, how do you sleep at night working for a company that provides the tools to the pedophilia industry.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm sorry, ma'am. Do you have a technical issue.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'll tell you what I have an issue with, Bethany, your company created Windows and now perverts are looking through those windows at young boys.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Hold on. John David is here. It can't wait. Come here, Baby. COOPER: Hey, hello.
GRACE: Here is my husband, David.
COOPER: How's it going? Nice to see you. Wow. Hey there, John David.
GRACE: This is John David. Hey there Mr. Anderson Cooper.
COOPER: Hello. Twenty one months old?
GRACE: Just want to stress to the viewers how important it is that you put stuff away. He is John David, named after John the revelator, and David, his father. He was born at 1:54 p.m., November 4, on a Sunday he. I was up that morning, trying to get ready to go to church. And Anderson, I was so sick. I didn't know I had the blood clots in my lung. And my heart and lungs were full of fluid. I just couldn't breathe.
David rushed me to the hospital. That is the day this baby boy -- he was the first. Here comes the second. When I hold them both, there is a major fight. We better get rid of this coffee cup. And here is the love of the world. I'm sure they are going to have a fight when we hold them both.
COOPER: They don't like to be held together?
GRACE: No, they don't like to share. Hey. Anderson, are you ready? Try to let him -- David, you better come hold them. Here he goes. Here he goes. Here he goes.
COOPER: Where are you going? Where are you going, big man?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He wants down.
GRACE: I think he wants to come over there?
COOPER: You want to come over here.
GRACE: You want talk on the microphone? Larry King's microphone.
COOPER: I'm going to lift you up to the microphone?
COOPER: Come here. Let me show you the microphone. No?
GRACE: Anderson, you look very natural with children.
COOPER: Hey, look. Sit up.
GRACE: You do. I think there is a baby in your future.
COOPER: There you go. There is the microphone. Yay. See, he is a broadcaster. Would you want these kids to follow in your footsteps.
GRACE: I want to do whatever makes them happy. Oh, here she goes. Anderson, what did you do to him?
COOPER: I didn't do anything.
GRACE: Daddy. You did it. And it is caught on national television. Now he is really going to have a fit.
COOPER: Clearly, I'm not a natural. Our remaining minutes with Nancy Grace when we come back after the break. We'll be right back.
COOPER: The joy of kids. They do take over.
GRACE: They do. They take over everything. The other day John David was helping me sign books.
COOPER: Did he really?
COOPER: Do they get along well?
GRACE: They get along great, except when they have to share something.
COOPER: Wow, thank you.
GRACE: Anderson, this one gets up at 2:30 and that one around -- see that?
COOPER: That is very nice of you. Thank you very much. I like that way you just took it away from your brother too, to give to me.
GRACE: She is very bold. She is a bobcat.
COOPER: That's very sweet of you. Thank you. Another present for me? I'll keep this too. Here do you want a piece of paper? What is the most surprising thing about having two kids?
GRACE: I did not know I was going to have twins. And I was well into it before they told me. Then, about a month later, Anderson, they told me I had lost a twin, that one had died. It would have been Lucy. I was very depressed. At that time, I broke my fluid. I was in a wheelchair. The biggest mess.
Then, another month later, the heartbeat came back. And I have my little Lucy, who is named after her grandmother. Speaking of the book, the main character is named Haley. I had always wanted a daughter. And I never thought I would have one so I named Haley -- my hero Haley. And then Lucy came and I named her after her grandmother that helped raise me.
COOPER: Cool. You want to see how to make a fish? I can make a fish. You want to see this?
GRACE: So, Anderson, have you read the book?
COOPER: No. You just gave me the book yesterday. I have not read the book. I am going to read it this weekend. You plan to write another one.
GRACE: I do. It will be set in the TV industry. There's going to be a lot of good --
COOPER: Look, I'm making a fish. You want to see how. Watch. Go like that. Go like that. And like this, and then that and then watch. See? It's a little fish.
GRACE: I think he likes it. Now you have to do one for Lucy.
COOPER: I can do that.
GRACE: Anderson, you have so many talents.
COOPER: I learned this in first grade. The only skill I remember from that. So what comes next for you?
GRACE: I have another book to write. It is going to be in the TV industry. And then I want to write a children's book.
COOPER: You want to write a kids book?
GRACE: Actually, I have already written a small one. I have a big one in mind. The stars are Lucy and John David in the children's book.
COOPER: A lot of books like this are made into movies. If this was made into a movie, who would you want playing Haley?
GRACE: You would have to be in there, Anderson. Charlize Theron, for sure. I love her.
What? Do you want to go to Anderson Cooper? I think somebody has a crush.
COOPER: It's a fish for you. Look, it is a fish.
GRACE: Anderson, trying to work with two children is not easy.
COOPER: Tell me about it. I'm sweating here, like dripping.
GRACE: I have a lot of help. My husband, my family helps a lot. It is hard. I wonder what mothers go through that don't have what I did. I know it. Anderson Cooper did it. Mommy had nothing to do with it. Don't go to a therapist and tell them you mommy did it.
COOPER: I'm going to need a therapist after this hour is done. Time for " AC 360." Anderson?
Surreal. Thanks, Anderson.