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Campbell Brown
Democratic Civil War Over Health Care Reform?; Afghanistan's Democracy
Aired August 19, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. Will the civil war in the Democratic Party doom health care reform?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: The Republicans are playing this thing smart, and the Democrats are imploding.
BROWN: The president tries to get on message while his own party tries to get past the infighting.
Will democracy prevail in Afghanistan? The polls open in less than three hours, and voting could be deadly.
IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Armed men going house to house warning people not to vote.
BROWN: Plus, in Iraq, six coordinated bombings kill nearly 100 people in Baghdad. Do we pull back too soon?
What really happened when the mayor of Milwaukee was beaten with a metal pipe?
TOM BARRETT, MAYOR OF MILWAUKEE: Things got very, very ugly very, very quickly.
BROWN: Now, for the first time, hear from the politician being called hero.
BARRETT: This is really bad, that this is really bad.
BROWN: Also, the "Vogue" supermodel who fought back against a cyber-bully. She sued Google and won. Find out how her case could help protect you online.
And Hurricane Bill now a Category 4. We are going to tell you where it is headed.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. Those are the big questions tonight. But we are going to start as we always do with the "Mash-Up," our look at the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We are watching it all, so you don't have to.
And we are now less than three hours away from the start of voting in Afghanistan, and the Taliban tonight on a mission to sabotage the election.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: In Afghanistan Taliban insurgents are doing all that they can to turn a high-stakes election into a bloody chaos.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Polls there open in just a few hours. In Helmand Province, U.S. Marines are hunting down the Taliban hoping to clear the way for voters.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is what life is like for Echo Company most days, fighting their way through Taliban strongholds. Their mission right now is to help some of Helmand's 615,000 registered voters get to the polls, in spite of Taliban threats.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Candidates travel by helicopter to avoid roadside bombs. In remote areas ballots are delivered by donkey.
WATSON: Election workers say, in some parts of the province, they have heard of armed men going house to house, warning people not to vote.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The Afghan government ordered a ban on media coverage of violence on Election Day, asking journalists essentially, censor yourself. If there is violence in Afghanistan, don't report it. Journalists said, no way.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The White House tonight saying it has conveyed displeasure and concern to the Afghan government for cracking down on journalists.
Tonight, word the only person convicted in the 1988 bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 over Lockerbie, Scotland, will soon be released.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: We are told that the Obama administration has been notified informally that Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi , the Lockerbie bomber, will be released by Scottish authorities on humanitarian grounds.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He was sentenced for life for the bombing that killed 270 people, including 180 Americans.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Sentenced to a minimum of 27 years, will be released on so-called compassionate grounds because he has advanced prostate cancer. The families are outraged.
SUSAN COHEN, MOTHER OF PAN AM FLIGHT 103 BOMBING VICTIM: What is this compassion, and compassion for him? My heart is broken. My daughter's birthday is soon. She would have been 41. It has just been living in hell.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Al-Megrahi is near death, suffering from terminal prostate cancer.
North Korea now saying the U.S. owes them direct talks after the release of imprisoned journalists Euna Lee and Laura Ling, that word from New Mexico's Governor Bill Richardson, who is meeting with two top North Korean diplomats in his home state.
Richardson revealing details of those meetings on CNN's "SITUATION ROOM," sounding optimistic about the future of U.S. and North Korean relations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Governor, what can you tell us about your talks? What do the North Koreans want?
GOV. BILL RICHARDSON (D), NEW MEXICO: Well, first, the North Koreans are sending good signals that they're ready to talk directly to the United States. They felt President Clinton's visit was good, that it helped thaw relations, make them easier.
They did feel that getting the two American journalists out was a gesture on their part. They mentioned several other gestures they have made recently, the release of the South Korean detainee. And so, I detected for the first time -- and I have been meeting with Minister Kim, who's the top U.N. diplomat -- a lessening of tension, some positive vibration. The fact that they're ready to have a dialogue again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Maybe, but tonight the White House making it pretty clear they don't owe North Korea anything, giving the idea of direct talks a big fat no.
Here at home, the health care war still raging and signs tonight Democrats are looking to ice Republicans out of the whole thing. Bye- bye, bipartisanship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The Obama administration is considering pushing a health care reform bill through Congress without Republican backing.
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Basically muscling this thing through the Senate with Democratic-only votes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The go-it-alone approach.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, HOST, "THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS": The president said late today that he still hopes there is a bipartisan bill. But privately they have been recognizing it that the chances of getting bipartisan bill are very, very low.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The final straw may have been a comment by a top Republican senator, Jon Kyl of Arizona. "There is no way Republicans are going to support a trillion-dollar bill."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is not necessarily their first option. It's what they have been left with.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And they could go it alone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Go it alone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go it alone.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The public doesn't like, you know, the whole go-it-alone mentality.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Robert Gibbs going to great lengths to say, look, the Democrats are not going to go this alone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The go-it-alone talk coming the day after a particularly feisty town hall meeting in Massachusetts, Congressman Barney Frank giving back as good as he got, if not better.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question to you is, why do you continue to support a Nazi policy, as Obama has expressly supported this policy? Why are you supporting it?
(CROSSTALK)
REP. BARNEY FRANK (D-MA), FINANCIAL SERVICES COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: Let me...
(CROSSTALK)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... a real solution?
FRANK: When you ask me that question, I'm going to revert to my ethnic heritage and answer your question with a question.
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
(LAUGHTER)
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(SHOUTING)
FRANK: It's a tribute to the First Amendment that this kind of vile, contemptible nonsense is so freely propagated. (APPLAUSE)
FRANK: Ma'am, trying to have a conversation with you would be like trying to argue with a dining room table. I have no interest in doing it.
(LAUGHTER)
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That town meeting targeted by supporters of perennial fringe presidential candidate Lyndon LaRouche.
We turn now to Milwaukee and Mayor Tom Barrett, whose good Samaritan act landed him in the hospital. Barrett describing the ordeal this morning at a news conference outside his house.
Here, the CliffsNotes version.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARRETT: We were walking down the street and my two daughters, and Molly, too, I think, at that point said someone is yelling, call 911, call 911. And there was a woman holding a baby.
And our immediate thought was that there was something wrong with the baby. And we started calling 911.
Within seconds, we realized the problem was not with the baby, it was with the man. And he came up and was very, very agitated. And events took off from there very, very quickly.
Because of the criminal nature of this, I'm not going to go into that any further.
As you can see, I got hit in the face. I have some cuts on the back of my head and the top of my head and will have that -- I will be back to the doctor on Friday for that. My hand is fractured.
I just wanted to let you know that I'm still standing.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A whole lot more about Mayor Barrett's gripping story coming up later tonight.
The soul survivor of a high seas tragedy that claimed the lives of three NFL stars now breaking his silence. In an exclusive interview with HBO's real sports, Nick Schuyler talks about the February boating tragedy that killed his friends and almost killed him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) NICK SCHUYLER, SOLE SURVIVOR OF BOATING ACCIDENT: We were 15, 10, 15 feet away from the boat. And the current is going every which way pulling us away. And we are fighting just to each other close, touching, you know? We all thought it. I was thinking about it the whole time, that there is a good chance we may not make it through the night.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Does the hope start to obviously run out? Or is everybody getting quiet at this point?
SCHUYLER: It is very quiet. The only conversations that were really told was -- and this is -- I think this is after we all realized that there is a good chance we are not going to get out of this -- was things that we would change in our life. That's immediately what I thought anyways. I just kept thinking about my mother.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Your mother?
SCHUYLER: Mm-hmm. I thought about there is no way that I'm going to let my mom go to my funeral.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Schuyler clung to the wreckage for 48 hours until he was rescued.
And some video to show you tonight that mothers everywhere are going to find terrifying. Check it out. You are looking at 8-year- old Tiger Brewer of England, who now holds the world record as the youngest wing walker. You see him there strapped to the top of his grandfather's plane. Why, Tiger? Why?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Tiger, up on that plane, what did the ground look like to you?
TIGER BREWER, WING WALKER: The ground looked like it's much smaller than it is now. And people and everything just got minimized, basically.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Eight years old, feet barely touched the wing.
Now, we have got Vic Norman, your grandfather and also your pilot.
VIC NORMAN, GRANDFATHER: Well, safety is the issue. I have to say, as -- Tiger has been asking to do this since he was 3 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He really was amazing up there, though, wasn't he?
(CROSSTALK)
NORMAN: Yes. He was very positive about it all.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He really was the tallest man in the field.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, you wonder what kind of parent would let a kid do that. Well, a father who legally changed his name to Happy Birthday, seriously. That's what Tiger's father did.
And that brings us to the "Punchline." This is courtesy of, drumroll, please, Britney Spears on "Letterman" last night in a teeny- weeny bikini with her top 10 list of ways the country would be different if she were president. Here are our favorites.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN")
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": Number ten.
BRITNEY SPEARS, ENTERTAINER: SPEARS: I would be the first president to wear eye shadow since Nixon.
(LAUGHTER)
LETTERMAN: Number nine.
SPEARS: We would only invade fun places, like Cabo.
LETTERMAN: That's right. OK.
(LAUGHTER)
LETTERMAN: Number five.
SPEARS: Every presidential news conference would feature costume changes.
LETTERMAN: Sure. The number-one way the country would be different if Britney Spears were president.
SPEARS: Finally, the media would pay some attention to me.
LETTERMAN: Well, there you go.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Britney Spears, everybody, two years ago, a hedge- shaving, drug-taking mess, now back in shape with one of the top- grossing tours of the year. Way to make a comeback, lady. And that is tonight's "Mash-Up."
Hundreds of car dealers now furious over cash for clunkers. They say they are not getting paid and they are pulling out of the program. Plus, it's voters vs. terrorists in Afghanistan tonight. The polls open in just a few hours there, and the Taliban out in full force. Does democracy stand a chance?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The insurgency in Afghanistan didn't just happen overnight. And we won't defeat it overnight. This will not be quick, nor easy. But we must never forget this is not a war of choice. This is a war of necessity.
Those who attacked America on 9/11 are plotting to do so again.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In just over two hours, the people of Afghanistan will begin risking their lives doing what we take for granted, voting for president. They have already paid a high price this week, as Taliban attacks and bombings have taken the lives of seven Afghan election workers and six U.S. troops.
The carnage isn't confined to Afghanistan today. A series of six explosions in Baghdad left 95 people dead, at least 500 wounded. It is the deadliest day in Iraq since U.S. troops pulled out of cities and towns there.
And our Michael Ware has covered both countries extensively for us.
MICHAEL WARE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, unfortunately.
(LAUGHTER)
BROWN: And he's with me here tonight.
It is good to have you here...
(CROSSTALK)
WARE: Yes.
BROWN: As we said, the voting begins in Afghanistan in just a matter of hours.
WARE: Very important.
BROWN: Taliban doing everything possible imaginable to try to keep people from voting.
What do you think is going to happen? And, ultimately, what effect does it have, what bearing does it have on the U.S. mission there?
WARE: Well, look, it is my belief that there is going to be an election. It is not going to be pretty. It will be a little bit messy. There may be some violence here and there. Some people who should have voted won't be able to vote because of the Taliban intimidation or simply because they can't open polling booths. There will probably be some election irregularities. It's not an election as we know it. There's absolutely no hope of that.
But will it be enough to give it the legitimacy that the Afghan people want is the real question. So, it is not going to be simple. It is going to be a little bit messy, but I think it is going to take place.
Now, in terms of the American investment in the U.S. mission, there is a lot riding on this election. To some degree, it doesn't matter to America whether Hamid Karzai is elected or Abdullah Abdullah or whatever. It is just whether this can be pulled off.
It's also going to be a measure of the Taliban's new strength. The last election, they didn't have the ability to disrupt the election. This time, their ability is much more enhanced, but it is only going to be in certain areas.
So, honestly, America has a lot to lose in this election, and I think relatively little to gain.
BROWN: So, realistically, though, bigger picture, what is it going to take to bring stability to Afghanistan? Does a change in government even matter? Does it mean anything really in terms of the big picture?
WARE: In a sense, no, because it is still going to be a hodgepodge of either warlords or corrupt officials. You are still not going to have delivery of government services to the remote regions.
I mean, look at Hamid Karzai. He has had to pull together two of the most notorious warlords in Afghanistan's recent history, including Dostum from the north, who is currently under investigation by the Obama administration for killing 2,000 prisoners.
So, whoever wins, again, it is probably not going to be a functioning administration. But that's not really going to be the point. If you want to end the war, this government is only going to be one piece of that. And the way you're going to end this war is both the Afghan government, but particularly America, cutting a deal with the Taliban.
BROWN: Yes, we will see if that happens.
Let me turn to Iraq here. So much talk in the sort of post-surge era about things calming down, things improving. Today, massive bombings.
WARE: Yes. Yes.
BROWN: The deadliest day of the year.
What is your takeaway?
WARE: Well, this is -- this is Iraq. I mean, yes, it's the deadliest day -- 95 odd people, I believe, is the current toll.
Well, while I was there just a few weeks ago, 80 people were killed in one day. So, what you need to be aware of is that, yes, this is what the military would call spectacular, spectacular attacks. They -- they garner high publicity, focus lots of attention. But this is part of a broader long-running bombing that was under way during the U.S. command of the war and has been under way since the Iraqis took over.
It is primarily being conducted by al Qaeda and its allies, who hope to bomb Iraq back into the bloodshed of the sectarian civil war. But the bottom line is that this has been going on. Now, media attention, like the Obama administration's attention, shifted to Afghanistan.
BROWN: Right.
WARE: In all that time, the killings continued in the media vacuum. So, these killings have been going on. Today is a terrible day. It is an awful tragedy, but it is just one of many. Yes, things are better than they were two years ago, but a lot of people are still dying in Baghdad.
BROWN: But -- but do you see any scenario where the U.S. could declare success in either Iraq or Afghanistan, frankly, under the Obama administration?
WARE: Well, the Obama administration in Iraq, on my hypothesis, has basically applied a certain calculation.
They are prepared to accept Iraq essentially becoming an Iranian client state or certainly under the influence and auspices of Iran, in return for stability, which will then allow American withdrawal. These bombings by al Qaeda and Sunni Islamists. It has got nothing to do with Iran.
That calculation allows this administration to focus on Afghanistan. And, again, there, the -- the way out is a political solution, just like Iraq. The Bush administration said, we don't deal with terrorists. We won't talk to people with American blood on their hands.
But within three or four years, they ended up putting 103,000 Sunni insurgents on the U.S. government payroll. But those are insurgents who never wanted to fight America in the first place.
And I we are going to see something very similar, not American creating militias in Afghanistan, like they did in Iraq. But what we are seeing already is America positioning itself to deal, the Pakistani intelligence agency, who hold the keys to the Taliban, preparing itself to deal, and certainly Hamid Karzai's government has been open and ready to deal as well.
So, the way out of Afghanistan is a political solution. The way out of Iraq has been conceding ground to Iran.
BROWN: Michael Ware, good to have you here.
WARE: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: And tonight's big question, when we come back, how did a government informant steal 130 million credit card numbers and get away with it for so long?
Also, Hurricane Bill, now a powerful Category 4 storm, we're going to tell you exactly where it is headed.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, Hurricane bill, we are trying to find out if it is going to make landfall or not. It's right now a Category 4. Chad Myers tracking the storm for us with the very latest.
Chad, what do you know?
CHAD MYERS, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Campbell, it's 135 miles per hour right now, Category 4. And it is going to get stronger. It's going to go to 145 before it finally starts to taper off.
There it is, well east of the Leeward Islands, a very small eye, temperatures in the -- way up here, 80 degrees below zero, which means it is a very intense storm, lots of things going up into the upper atmosphere.
The thing that changed today is the track. And how does that matter? Well, the cone has changed. We always talk about this cone. Don't follow the line. Follow the cone. The cone now includes parts of Cape Cod, Narragansett, also back up even to I would say parts of Maine and also into the Bay of Fundy and Newfoundland.
This is for the first time now. They have shifted the track just far enough to the west that now we have this cone. You know, people, in Charley, thought it was going to Tampa. Charley didn't go to Tampa. It went to Punta Gorda. But Punta Gorda was always in the cone.
So, now that we have parts of the U.S. in the cone, this is much more of a serious storm. We will keep watching it for you all weekend long.
BROWN: All right, Chad, thanks very much for the update. We will stay with you as well.
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's big question, when we come back, is cash for clunkers a boom or bust? Find out why hundreds of car dealers are furious and pulling out of the program.
Plus, the supermodel who took on Google and won. It's the case that might end up protecting you against cyber-bullies.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Well, guess what? The cash for clunkers seems to be a victim of its own success. It is a pretty classic good news/bad news situation here.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The cash for clunkers program has given the auto industry a much-needed boost.
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS: GM says it is increasing production by 60,000 vehicles this year and reinstating more than 1,300 jobs, thanks in large measure to the cash for clunkers program. Ford raised its sales forecast by a half-million vehicles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it is not all roses. Dealers are increasingly annoyed that the government has been slow to reimburse them for the $3,500 to $4,500 markdowns they have given buyers.
RAY LAHOOD, U.S. SECRETARY OF TRANSPORTATION: I have taken phone calls from car dealers from my home town and others. And I have talked to these car dealers. They are going to get their money. We have the money to provide to them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, today, in fact, hundreds of New York area auto dealers did withdraw from the program altogether, rather than deal with promises, instead of payments, they say, from the federal government.
To talk about what's going on here, we are joined by Mark Schienberg, who represents the New York dealers who have opted out, and, in Washington, Politico.com financial correspondent Eamon Javers, who has been following the story for us as well.
Mark, let me start with you here.
They are really dropping out of this thing? And they say they're losing money. What's going on? What happened?
MARK SCHIENBERG, PRESIDENT, GREATER NEW YORK AUTO DEALERS: They have been so frustrated with the administration of the program that they can't continue to exist with it.
This has been a program that's actually probably the best incentive funds, stimulus funds, that the federal government can come up, which generated tremendous amounts of floor traffic. The problems is in the details. And the details of this program is an administration and a program that's just too hard to sort of control.
There are dealers out hundreds of thousands of dollars, millions of dollars, waiting for some indication of whether they are going to be paid for the cars that they have already sold.
BROWN: But here's my question. The program has only been around for a matter of weeks. The federal government is pretty inefficient about everything it does. Weren't they being a little naive if they thought they were going to get their cash like right away?
SCHIENBERG: Well, I -- it is...
BROWN: I mean, did they not get in over their heads, and now they are, you know, starting to panic because they, you know, expected more than, I think, you have a right to expect from the government?
(LAUGHTER)
SCHIENBERG: Well, what happened was is that this definitely was an influx that nobody expected, as far as the people coming in to dealerships to take a look at new vehicles.
BROWN: But the dealerships could have put limits on it themselves. I mean, they could have limited themselves.
SCHIENBERG: And that's really what they're sort of doing. They're saying, you know what, we have so much money that's out there. We can't get even an idea from the federal government whether they are going to approve these deals. So we're getting stop back and wait to see if the federal government can get their act together and start to administrate sort of the transactions that are already there.
BROWN: Right.
SCHIENBERG: There are supposedly 400,000 vehicle transactions that happened and only two percent of them have been approved for reimbursement. That's a very poor track record at this point.
BROWN: So you're telling me -- I mean, just to bottom line it, that if I walk in the door of one of your dealerships and I've got my junk deal car and I want to get a new one, they're going to tell me no.
SCHIENBERG: You're going to have a number of retailers say I want to sell you the car, I want to be able to put you into it...
BROWN: I can't.
SCHIENBERG: ... but we've got of sort of wait to see what's happening to federal government.
BROWN: All right. Let me go to Eamon on this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
BROWN: You know, we heard the transportation secretary just a moment ago admit that he's getting an earful himself from a lot of these very angry dealers. What happened in this program? Were they just not ready for the success of it?
EAMON JAVERS, POLITICO.COM: Well, yes, that's exactly what happened. I mean, this thing has been a huge staggering wild success. And the reason it's been such a huge success is because it's free money. Everybody likes free money. You've got to get $4,500 to buy a new car. Who wouldn't take advantage of that? Unfortunately, the government didn't have enough people in place to actually process all that paperwork and get the money out to the dealers fast enough. Now they're saying they're actually going to have that thing stacked up by the end of this week.
But this could be a very short-term program, Campbell. I mean, they are not going to ask for more money for this program at the White House. So the $3 billion that's on the table is sort of all that's left. And when that runs out, it's not likely that there's going to be any more money coming behind it. So these dealers are opting out, might not be opting out of all that much more of the cash for clunkers program at this point.
BROWN: All right. Eamon Javers for us tonight, putting it in perspective. Mark Schienberg as well, thanks for your time.
Tonight's newsmaker when we come back. The supermodel who sued Google and won. It was all over cyberbullying. Find out how the case could impact you online.
And what is with the Democrats? Could the biggest threat to President Obama's health care reform plan come from within his own ranks? And why big name Democrats are warning the president don't give away the store.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Mr. President, don't give them a comma without a vote. Don't give them a paragraph without a vote.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: In this make or break month for health care, President Obama can barely keep his own party together as tensions heat up right now. It is Democrat versus Democrat. Will the president really try to keep everyone at the table including Republicans and accept a watered-down version of his overhaul? Or will he listen to those who on the left -- who on the left who say it's all or nothing, keep the public option or bust?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Progressives are distressed by what they see as mixed messages from the president on his commitment to a public government-run health care plan to complete with private insurance and drive down cost.
ALEX CASTELLANOS, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: You don't give up your best negotiating chip before you get to the negotiating table. And that's what Secretary Sebelius did this week, saying that it might be willing to give up the public plan. The left wing of the Democratic Party went up in flames. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's Democrats who control Congress. Democrats can pass this bill if they have the votes. The problems are coming from within their party and from the American people who aren't buying what he is selling.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: With me to talk about all this right now, former Labor Secretary, Robert Reich, whose latest book "Supercapitalism: The Transformation of Business, Democracy, and Everyday Life" is now out in paperback. Also, CNN contributor and Democratic strategist Paul Begala joining us and CNN political analyst Roland Martin.
Welcome to everybody. First, let me get one thing out of the way. Both Secretary Reich and Paul Begala support a public option. So we're not debating whether Democrats think that's a good idea per se but whether that is essential.
Secretary Reich, are you or a lot of Democrats out there ready to risk anything -- sort of any sort of reform for this one principle?
ROBERT REICH, FORMER LABOR SECRETARY: Look, I think that health care -- the principle here is moving the ball forward. The public option is critically important.
I mean, I started out in favor of a single payer and I was convinced that that was a political non-starter and the public option was a kind of way of at least keeping the private insurers on their toes and cutting their costs and controlling long-term costs.
If you give up the public option you are essentially giving up almost everything, Campbell. But I think it's critically important that the administration understand both in economic and in policy terms but also in policy and political terms why that public option has got to be highlighted and there has got to be a commitment from the president.
BROWN: All right. So, Paul, is -- in your view, the president not making the sale here?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Yes. I think -- you know, I think the president came to office believing in a myth. The myth of the reasonable Republican and it's like El Dorado or the unicorn.
People want to believe and it perhaps it gave him comfort. Look, I didn't support him in the primaries. Bob Reich did and we're good friends but we're on the opposite sides of that.
One of the things that I think President Obama got wrong in those primaries he seemed to blame Hillary Clinton and her husband for the bitter divisive fights in the '90s and he sort of suggested if we had a new and different leader, then they won't have all the ammunition, all the baggage.
Well, no. They didn't use all the old lies like Whitewater that they would have used against Hillary, but they invented completely new lies. I think that, frankly, the president underestimated the capacity of the Republican Party to simply obstruct and frankly lie.
BROWN: But, Roland, let me bring you in here. There are Democrats who have said that, frankly, the president isn't giving Democrats anything to rally around.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: If you really listen to what Robert and Paul were saying, neither one wants to be hard and fast by saying, public option absolutely are nothing at all. What they're trying to say is you got to give yourself negotiating room.
And so that's what the president frankly didn't do by taking off of the table. So nobody wants to be hard and fast, but you have this fight going on among these Democrats but also the House and the Senate. The president seems to be appealing to these senators and by saying, well, I got the House in the bag, let me deal with the senators. The House is saying, wait a minute. These guys scored everything up but you want us to go ahead and go along with you. No, we're not going to do it. So now he has a House and a Senate problem as opposed to just a Senate problem.
BROWN: Secretary Reich, do you agree with that assessment?
REICH: To some extent I do. I think that the president has decided along the way to make Max Baucus and the Senate Finance Committee the kind of pivotal players in this entire debate.
MARTIN: Very true.
REICH: I think that was a mistake because by giving them the authority and indirectly saying to Max Baucus you've got to find a bipartisan solution, the way it has is sort of giving away too much.
MARTIN: Very true.
BROWN: And, Paul, to that point, front page of the "New York Times" today, "Forget bipartisanship, Democrats are going to go it alone."
BEGALA: Well, I would say let's let Senator Baucus finish his work and then judge by the work product. The process is a mess but it's always a mess.
I'm willing to give Senator Baucus, you know, the time that he says he needs and I think he said something like September 15th, which is not very far away. And let's judge then what the finance committee produces.
I'm not ready to write them off yet. I am, however, getting really close to writing off the Republicans. I did see that "New York Times" article and I think it may be the only strategy.
You know the president, the Democrats, including the House Democrats, Roland mentioned, they have sucked it up on health care and have accepted over 100 Republican amendments in exchange for which they hadn't gotten a single Republican vote. Well, that's ridiculous.
My view, if I were advising them and I know they watch your show every night, Campbell. Mr. President, don't give them a comma without a vote. Don't give them a paragraph without a vote.
BROWN: All right. We got to leave it there.
REICH: And they are taking the playbook and they're taking the playbook from 1994. I mean, Newt Gingrich saw that Bill Clinton's health care plan was going to be -- the way of the leverage points where if they could defeat it they could gain House seats and Senate seats...
BROWN: Right.
REICH: ... and basically discredit the entire administration.
MARTIN: Democrats can't lose.
BROWN: All right. Secretary Reich, Roland Martin and Paul Begala, thanks guys. Appreciate it.
And tonight's big question, how does the government informant get away with stealing 130 million credit card numbers? Plus, tonight's newsmaker, the mayor turned hero. He ended up in the hospital after saving a grandmother and a baby.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MAYOR TOM BARRETT, MILWAUKEE: As you can see, I got hit in the face. I have some cuts on the back of my head and the top of my head and we'll head back. I'll be back to the doctor on Friday.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: One of tonight's biggest newsmakers can't be here with us. He is under lock and key at a detention center in New York probably without a computer and his cell.
Albert Gonzalez is awaiting trial on allegations he orchestrated the largest data breach in history. He and his accomplices are accused of acquiring 130 million credit and debit card numbers from five large companies. Having no access to Mr. Gonzalez, we opted instead to talk to a reformed computer hacker, Kevin Mitnick, now a computer security consultant, joining us right now. He's also the author of "The Art of Deception: Controlling the Human Element of Security."
Kevin, welcome to you. So walk us through.
KEVIN MITNICK, COMPUTER SECURITY CONSULTANT: Thank you, Campbell.
BROWN: Walk us through, if you will, the scheme, how it works. First, I guess, how did he get the credit card numbers? You say they can be stolen even as a customer is using them.
MITNICK: Yes, that's correct. Well, there's a few ways. One was breaching the wireless networks of these retailers. Another is where the hackers found security vulnerabilities within web applications that were facing the Internet and once they were able to exploit these web applications, they kind of got their foot in the door.
And then from that point, then they go and find the computers where the credit card transactions are taking place in places like a computer wiretap. It's called a sniffer and capture the information.
They can also get access to the database where the card numbers are stored and a lot of retailers keep the encryption key on the same server. So it doesn't take much work for a bad guy to get the information.
BROWN: So I guess -- how then does he turn it into cash?
MITNICK: Well, back in 2003, actually, when Albert was an informant for the Secret Service, he ran this group called Shadow Crew. And what they would do is they would sell stolen credit card numbers on this underground network. And probably Albert is really not the kingpin in this case. I think that the kingpin is really in Russia, and Albert is just kind of a cell, a hacking cell.
And what they do is distribute these numbers to their contacts in Russia. They make counterfeit cards. They send mules back -- or the -- they use mules in the United States to purchase merchandise and then they fence it off and then the money is Western Unioned back to Russia. That's one method.
The other is using it over the Internet. Card presence transactions and committing fraud that way, stealing, you know, obtaining services and products.
BROWN: Right. And he was targeting big, well-known companies. I mean, 7-Eleven, T.J. Maxx. Don't these companies have security in place?
MITNICK: Well, unfortunately, a lot of these big brands have to follow certain security protocols as required by the card associations. But unfortunately, you know, web applications and assistance have vulnerabilities. In fact, personally, my AT&T wireless account was recently compromised and they posted my password on the Internet. And then when I approached AT&T about it, they said it's not our fault. Please leave our network.
So you have companies that don't take responsibility. Some undergo security assessments, so they hire third party companies to test their security using hacker techniques. And one company tested Heartland Payment systems shortly before they were compromised. So I think it goes to the skill of the companies assessing the security.
BROWN: Right.
MITNICK: That their skill isn't up to par with the blackhead (ph) hackers, well, there's going to be a problem.
BROWN: OK. So now that we are all totally freaked out about this, how do we protect ourselves?
MITNICK: Well, when you go to 7-Eleven and use your credit card...
BROWN: Yes.
MITNICK: ... you can't really protect yourself. But fortunately, when you use your credit card over, you know -- when you use a credit card and if there's fraud, if you report it within 90 days, usually the bank -- they won't even charge you $50. They'll go ahead and reverse the transaction.
If you're using a debit card, on the other hand, the laws don't favor the consumer. So you have to detect the fraud within a shorter period of time and then the banks will usually go ahead and credit your account. But then there's the issue of identity theft. Somebody, you know, creating new lines of credit in your name.
You know, you can sign up for a service like Life Lock (ph).
BROWN: Right.
MITNICK: And set up fraud alerts on your account to go ahead and detect when anyone tries to open a new line of credit in your name.
BROWN: Wow. A lot to think about. A lot to stew over there. Kevin Mitnick, a computer hacker, reformed computer hacker.
MITNICK: Reformed.
BROWN: Kevin, sorry.
MITNICK: Exactly.
BROWN: Thanks for your time tonight. Appreciate your insight.
When we come back, it doesn't matter what people say about you as long as they spell your name right. Right? Well, that's not what a judge decided in the case involving Google. A supermodel, a foul- mouthed blogger and maybe your privacy when you're online.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: The Internet offers anonymity. Yes. But does anonymity mean immunity?
Today's answer handed down by a judge on a case against Google is no. The judge said a woman who was anonymously defamed on a Google controlled Web site has the right to know who is saying those awful things about her.
And we're joined now by the woman who won the case, supermodel Liskula Cohen, along with her lawyer, Steven Wagner. Nick Thompson of "Wired" magazine also with us tonight, and CNN senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin joining us as well to help sort all this out.
Liskula, let me start with you. And just to give people a little more of the back story, there was someone saying some awful things about you.
LISKULA COHEN, SUPERMODEL/CYBERBULLYING VICTIM: Yes.
BROWN: Anonymously on a blog. And I guess my question is snarky language bordering on a cruelty? A lot of people would argue is the language of blogs in the Internet in many ways. What made you decide to go after them and take legal action?
COHEN: I was just so grossly offended that I couldn't -- I couldn't do nothing. I wanted it gone and I didn't want it to be there for the rest of my life. And I knew the only way to -- for it to be gone was to call my lawyer.
BROWN: And you actually had a conversation with the mother. And a lot of people remember this story of the young woman who committed suicide.
COHEN: Yes.
BROWN: And she was very encouraging to you, wasn't she?
COHEN: Oh, absolutely. She --
BROWN: What did she say?
COHEN: She said it's a fight worth fighting, you know. And I believed that before and I still believe it. And I think that, you know, of course, her story is extreme and my heart goes out to her. I mean, it's awful. But, you know, nothing really happened to the woman that did that, to that little girl. You know.
BROWN: And she said it's important you take some sort of action and take a stand.
COHEN: Yes.
BROWN: Jeff, put this in context for us. What does it mean legally? The ruling?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, this -- like so often in the law, they're competing values here because you have, on the one hand, the interest in privacy which -- and the free speech which the Internet has been a powerful force. You have a robust debate on a million different subjects every day on the Internet. But on the other hand, is that a license to damage people's reputation with knowing falsehood?
BROWN: And as precedent been set here that --
TOOBIN: Well, what's interesting is that this has come up a lot. There have been a lot of cases about trying to get behind the anonymity of the Internet. People sue a pseudonym and they ask the court to unveil the pseudonym.
And basically what the courts are doing is they're saying you have to show for good reason -- you can't just frivolously ask for for good reason. In this case, they said this was a good reason. We are going to disclose the name.
In a case out of Maryland where the operator of a Dunkin' Donuts was called dirty, had a dirt -- and said your Dunkin' Donuts is dirty. They said that's not important enough. We're not going to give you the name. So they're trying to strike a balance.
BROWN: So, Nick, I mean, anonymity is largely a part of the culture of the Internet. As we see more cases like Liskula's making their way through the court system, is it going to change the culture? Do you think it's already having an impact on the culture of the Internet that people, you know, aren't going to see it as a free-for- all, that they can't say anything they feel like saying?
NICK THOMPSON, SENIOR EDITOR, "WIRED" MAGAZINE: Absolutely. The more people know about this case, there is a recent case involving Twitter. The more people learn about it, the more they're going to realize that laws do apply online.
But one thing we have to be careful about is that in this case, everybody is cheering for her. You know, it's a clear example where somebody said something really horrible, violated the law isn't that bad? But it's also true that in a lot of cases, anonymity is good. You want people exposing things.
There are a lot of people who can't say their names or exposing corporate misdeeds, fraud and things like that. So we have to remember that a lot of anonymity is good even though in some cases it's bad.
BROWN: Steven, the attorney representing the blogger in this case said this is a loss of for First Amendment rights. How do you argue that?
STEVEN WAGNER, COHEN'S ATTORNEY: Well, first of all, defamation is not protected under the First Amendment. Second of all, she argued in court that there should be a lower standard. That basically this is trash talk and that it should be allowed because the overall context of the Internet is that --
BROWN: Trash talk?
WAGNER: Is trash talk. And the judge clearly rejected that and made a very strong statement that basically the Internet is not going to be a safe harbor for defamatory language.
BROWN: So, Jeff, Google likely to appeal this, I would assume they would. Right?
TOOBIN: They might. They might hope to settle it and make the whole thing go away. But I would differ somewhat on that because I really do think there are First Amendment values at stake here because, you know, you say defamation is not protected and that's true. But what is defamation is often a very hard question.
Opinion is always protected by the First Amendment. If you say on the Internet Barack Obama is a terrible president, that's protected.
BROWN: Protected.
TOOBIN: But if you say Barack Obama is a child molester, that's not protected if you know that to be false. So, I mean, those distinctions are obvious to some lawyers but they're not obvious to everyone and we want to encourage people to talk.
BROWN: Do you think, Nick -- and you've been tracking a lot of the stuff that the laws need to catch up, I guess, to technology. Does Congress need to pass more laws relating to this kind of stuff, relating to the Internet?
THOMPSON: They can't. Congress cannot move fast enough. Laws cannot move fast enough.
BROWN: To keep up.
THOMPSON: To keep up. What's going to have to change are citizen norms and corporate norms. Corporations are going to be the new law centers of the future because Congress can say, you know what, let's have a law that deals with free speech in Twitter. The truth is by the time they pass it, Twitter will completely have changed or been rendered obsolete.
BROWN: Right. God, it's a fascinating area to explore. Many thanks to you. To Nick Thompson from "Wired" magazine, Jeff, as always. Liskula.
COHEN: Thank you.
BROWN: And thank you to your attorney as well, Steven Wagner. Appreciate your time, everybody.
WAGNER: Thank you.
BROWN: Up next, the most powerful women in the world. Find out who tops Hillary Clinton, Michelle Obama and Oprah.
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BROWN: The most powerful woman in the world. Want to know who it is? German Chancellor Angela Merkel, for the fourth year in a row, according to "Forbes" magazine. She beat out the big American names in the list by far.
Hillary Clinton, the secretary of state at number 36. Just a few notches ahead of First Lady Michelle Obama, who is at number 40, her first time on the list. Right behind her, Oprah Winfrey at number 41.
And that is it for us tonight, all for our show. We will see you back here tomorrow night, same time, same place. Right now, "LARRY KING LIVE."
