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Did Overdose Cause Michael Jackson's Death?; CIA Interrogation Probe Launched
Aired August 24, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
What really killed Michael Jackson? Explosive allegations from court documents just released today. In his final hours, the singer was given one powerful drug after another until the final deadly dose.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: At 10:40 in the morning, the day that he died, Murray administered 25 milligrams of this Propofol to Michael Jackson.
BROWN: Will his doctor face criminal charges, or was Michael Jackson ultimately to blame for his own death?
Tonight, CIA agents face criminal investigation for inhumane treatment of suspected terrorists. The big question is, is it national security or dangerous politics?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's actually very dangerous to reopen this.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR ANALYST: If people were tortured, if people were murdered, they should be prosecuted, period.
Also, vacation politics. The White House moves to Martha's Vineyard.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This morning the president worked out, played some tennis, was going to hit the links today.
BROWN: Tonight's big question, can the president get away from it all and still get the job done?
And tonight's newsmaker, the blogger who is suing Google for revealing her identity. She wants $50 million for violating her privacy. It's the case that may change your life online.
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. Those are the big questions tonight. But we're going to start, as we always do, with the "Mash-Up. It's our look at the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all so you don't have to.
In Washington tonight, the release of a long-awaited report on CIA prisoner abuse painting a stark picture of the Bush administration's war on terror.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: According to the report, detainees were led to believe they would be killed or their relatives would be killed if they didn't answer interrogator's questions.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Things like as the report shows shooting a gun in a room near a suspect to make that suspect think somebody else had just been executed.
ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC NEWS: A suspect in the bombing of the USS Cole, Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri, was stripped naked, hooded and handcuffed, and threatened with a handgun and power drill. He was also told, "We could get your mother in here," implying sexual abuse against her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The interrogators say said to Khalid Sheikh Mohammed that if anything else happens in the United States, we're going to kill your children.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Attorney General Eric Holder has named a special prosecutor to determine whether Bush era CIA officials broke the law in their treatment of terror suspects.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, the very political message out of the White House tonight crystal clear, that this is Eric Holder's investigation. He, alone, will decide who, if anyone, gets prosecuted. The president won't interfere.
In Scotland tonight, mounting anger over the government's decision to release the only man convicted in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: The Scottish justice minister defended his decision before parliament today.
KENNY MACASKILL, SCOTTISH JUSTICE SECRETARY: It was a decision based on the law of Scotland and the values I believe that we seek to uphold. It was not based on political, diplomatic, or economic considerations.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One woman legislator asked, well, if it was a compassionate reason, if it's because he's ill and is about to die, wouldn't he have been better off in a Scottish hospice or hospital?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's dying of prostate cancer. There he is being embraced by Gadhafi, the leader of Libya.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Gadhafi hugged and kissed the terminally ill bomber after he flew home from a Scottish jail to a hero's welcome.
MITCHELL: You had all of these taunts of the Britain suggesting from the Gadhafis that there were oil deals involved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The Scottish justice minister saying that Libya assured him the terrorist's homecoming would be low-key.
Not so much.
Here on the home front, as of, oh, just about five minutes ago, cash for clunkers is history.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": Tonight marks the end of the road for cash for clunkers, the popular automobile trade-in program.
MALVEAUX: Transportation Secretary Ray LaHood says as many as 800,000 vehicles will have been sold by the time the reimbursement program ends tonight.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds of last-minute buyers rushed in over the weekend.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: One car every 10 minutes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Every 10 minutes. We're not selling coffee here. We're not selling donuts. We're selling $20,000 and $30,000 automobiles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It depleted my whole inventory. We just simply ran out of vehicles.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This dealer says nearly 80 percent of all their clunker customers are buying foreign brands. And about 80 percent of what people are turning in are domestic vehicles.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Ford explorer tops the list of trade-ins. Most of the others, as you can see there, were SUVs. And the Toyota Corolla tops the list of new vehicles.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Car dealers getting a little extension tonight. They have now until tomorrow to file all of their paperwork. In the health care wars, another emotional town hall meeting today, this one hosted by Republican Senator Tom Coburn of Oklahoma. The moment that grabbed us, not angry, though, not combative, just real, human and heartbreaking. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Senator Coburn, we need help. My husband has traumatic brain injuries. His health insurance will not cover him to eat and drink.
And what I need to know, are you going to help him?
SEN. TOM COBURN (R), OKLAHOMA: Yes, we will help.
The first thing we will do is see what we can do individually to help you through our office. But the other thing that's missing in this debate is us as neighbors helping people that need our help.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: A different kind of town meeting moment there.
Meantime, a new headache for the White House, appearing on CNN's "STATE OF THE UNION," Senator Joe Lieberman saying that the president needs to slow down the health care train until the recession is over. What's more, Lieberman says he won't support the go-it-alone-without- Republicans approach.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOHN KING, HOST, "STATE OF THE UNION WITH JOHN KING": Would you tell Leader Harry Reid, no way, no how, can't do this on something as big as health care?
SEN. JOSEPH LIEBERMAN (I), CONNECTICUT: I think it's a real mistake to try to jam through the total health insurance reform, health care reform plan that the public is either opposed to or of very, very passionate mixed minds about. It's just not good for the system. Frankly, it won't be good for the presidency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Lieberman of course caucuses with Democrats, who desperately are going to need his vote to win that filibuster-proof supermajority.
Breaking news in Jackson world tonight. At long last, the autopsy results are in.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: We are getting breaking news now, a possible cause of Michael Jackson's death.
KAYE: The coroner's office here in Los Angeles has determined that, at the time of his death -- I'm reading to you from the search warrant -- at the time of his death, toxicology analysis showed that Michael Jackson had lethal levels of Propofol in his blood.
COURIC: The Associated Press is reporting tonight that the Los Angeles County coroner has ruled his death a homicide. This could lead to criminal charges.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: At 1:30 a.m., Murray gives Jackson Valium. It doesn't work. At 2:00 a.m., Murray gives Jackson another drug, Lorazepam. At 3:00 a.m., the doctor tries Midazolam. Still, Jackson cannot sleep. Then, it is still other sedatives. All fail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The report says Dr. Murray told investigators he was actually trying to wean Jackson from Propofol and that he withheld it from Jackson the night before he died. But, finally, he gave Jackson Propofol the following morning, after the singer demanded it.
CHRIS MATTHEWS, MSNBC: The word's going to be out on the streets of every county, every township, every village in the world somebody killed Michael Jackson.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Much more on this story coming up tonight, including new details on just how many drugs Michael Jackson was given on the day that he died.
In Canada tonight, a shocking end to the manhunt for a reality show star suspected of a grisly murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: A reality contestant wanted for the murder of his "Playboy" model ex-wife is now found dead. Police say Ryan Jenkins' body was found hanging in a hotel east of Vancouver, Canada.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jenkins had failed to leave his room by the 11:00 a.m. checkout. So, the manager went in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I just cracked the door, and I seen the computer sitting on the bed and a few other things. And then I followed through with the door. And as I followed through with the door, there he was hanging from the coat rack by a belt.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Officers had wanted to question him in the killing of Jasmine Fiore, whose mutilated remains found in a suitcase in a trash can.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We're now joined by Jasmine Fiore's mother, Lisa Lepore, and her close friend, Robert Hasman. I understand, Robert, when you heard the news, you might have been surprised?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was happy that Ryan has -- that he's been -- that he killed himself. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jenkins' mother tells the Associated Press she believes her son is innocent and she will fight to clear his name.
And now on to Havana and new pictures of a remarkably resilient Fidel Castro. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Take a look back at Fidel Castro. This is in the summer of 2006. This is about the time that he steps aside as president. And remember there were rallies in the streets of Miami? We covered a few of those. In fact, many thought that he was on death's door at the time with a rare and mysterious gastrointestinal ailment.
Then, for a long time, we barely saw him, and now this. Take a look at this video of Fidel Castro. This is this weekend. Comparatively speaking, it's a huge difference. In fact, he seems to have recovered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The first time Castro's appeared on Cuban state TV in more than a year. He is 83 years old.
And that finally brings us to tonight's "Punchline," courtesy of Mr. David Letterman who has his own ideas for health care reform.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "LARRY KING LIVE")
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": How about that health care reform? I'm telling you, it's just gotten crazy.
And what they're trying now is an interactive health care program. So, this takes away the needless step of going to a doctor.
LETTERMAN: Here, watch how this works. Take a look now. See what you think.
UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Welcome to interactive medical care. Hold body part up to your television screen now. Maybe put some ice on it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: David Letterman, everybody. And that is the "Punchline."
Breaking news tonight: The L.A. Coroner says Michael Jackson overdosed. A report just out tonight shows he was given massive amounts of drugs the night he died. A single law enforcement source tells the AP it is a homicide. The big question tonight, will police arrest his doctor on criminal charges?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KAYE: According to the affidavit here, Murray, Dr. Murray, tried to induce sleep without using Propofol, and he said that he gave Jackson Valium at 1:30 in the morning. When that didn't work, he injected him with Lorazepam intravenously at 2:00 a.m.
And then at 3:00 a.m., according to these documents, when Jackson was still awake, Dr. Murray administered a drug called Midazolam. Now, over the next few hours, apparently, Dr. Murray said that he gave Michael Jackson various drugs. And then at 10:40 in the morning, the day that he died, Murray administered 25 milligrams of this Propofol to Michael Jackson, after he, according to Dr. Murray, repeatedly demanded the drug.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Breaking news tonight, important new developments in the Michael Jackson case.
CNN has learned the coroner's office has determined Jackson died from an overdose of a powerful sedative, Propofol and that the Associated Press is quoting now a single law enforcement official who says the coroner has ruled Jackson's death a homicide. We want to get right to it now.
Randi Kaye has been covering the case extensively for us. She's out in L.A. for us tonight. In San Francisco, criminal defense attorney and former prosecutor Michael Cardoza joining as well. And here in New York, our senior legal another Jeffrey Toobin also with us.
Randi, let me start with you.
First, what do we know about the case actually being ruled a homicide?
KAYE: Well, it's important to point out that when it comes to a homicide in terms of the coroner's report, the coroner has a very different meaning -- or could have a very different meaning of homicide than other authorities.
It could be first-degree murder. It could be reckless manslaughter. It could be negligent homicide. so, it's unclear at this point what, if anything, that is, because we have talked with the Los Angeles Police Department. And they said that information, a single source saying that it was a homicide case now, that information isn't coming from them.
We also called the county coroner here in L.A. and they gave us a no comment. We also checked with the district attorney's office. That's who would get the case once it's finished, once it's all wrapped up. They would be the ones who determined exactly what charges was filed, if they were homicide charges or not. And they have not even received the case yet.
So, it may be just a little bit one step ahead here in terms of what kind of case it is and what charges may follow.
BROWN: OK. And, Randi, the court documents also shed some light on what exactly happened the night Michael Jackson died. And it's pretty unbelievable. Walk us through what they say.
KAYE: Well, what we know is that at least from the toxicology reports, the initial report shows that he had a lethal dose of Propofol, this very powerful sedative, in his blood.
We know also from this report -- this is a search warrant and an affidavit that was filed in Houston, which is where Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson's personal physician, has a clinic. That clinic was searched. And this is where the search warrant came from.
Apparently, he thought that Michael Jackson was having trouble sleeping for about six weeks. He thought he had became addicted to Propofol, this very powerful sedative, which is really only supposed to be used in a hospital setting, Campbell.
So, he was trying to wean him off it, trying to get him to sleep in other ways. The morning that he died, the day that he died, that morning, he gave him, at 1:30 in the morning, Valium. Then, at 2:00 a.m., he gave him Ativan, which is an anti-anxiety drug. And, then, at 3:00 a.m., he gave him another Versed, which is also an anti- anxiety drug that is supposed to help you sleep during surgery.
And he still was awake. So, he gave him more Ativan, more Versed, two milligrams of each through an I.V. And, then, at 10:40 in the morning, according to Dr. Murray, Michael Jackson was repeatedly demanding Propofol. So, he gave him 25 milligrams of that drug.
Now, we don't know if this is what killed him, because this is the initial report. But we do know that he had very lethal doses of Propofol in his system.
BROWN: All right, Jeff, we're going to talk more about the drugs, themselves, with a doctor coming up in a moment.
But, first, take us back to the legal aspect of this. If, in fact, and you saw that list of drugs, this turns out to be ruled a suicide, which it looks like it may be headed in that direction, what does it mean legally?
TOOBIN: Well, it means someone killed Michael Jackson. It means there was a crime involved in his death.
It wasn't natural causes. It wasn't suicide. Someone killed him. That can be a wide variety of charges. It can be something as big as first-degree murder, where you could conceivably get the death penalty or more likely in this circumstance some sort of manslaughter, which is unintentionally taking the life of another person.
You can still go to jail for several years. But, certainly, there doesn't appear to be any evidence here that Conrad Murray intentionally killed Michael Jackson. So, it would to be some sort of investigation leading to at this point manslaughter charges.
BROWN: You had said, I don't know -- at some point over the last two weeks when we have talked about this, I recalled you saying before that you didn't think, at least based on what we know so far, there was a very strong case against Dr. Murray. Do you still feel that way given this information?
TOOBIN: It's hard to know.
Remember that this document that became -- went public today, this is a prosecution document. It puts the evidence in the evidence most likely to lead you to think he's guilty. We don't know his side of the story yet. We don't know what other physicians were involved.
We don't know what access Jackson had to drugs himself. We don't have an official cause of death yet. It's referred to as a preliminary cause of death. There are a lot of unanswered questions. And I think, given the complexity of Jackson's medical situation, just assuming that Conrad Murray, the last doctor with him, killed him, I think that's a long stretch -- a long way to go at this point, though it may be true.
BROWN: Michael, the Jackson family attorney -- I want to read this -- Londell McMillan, released a statement.
And it says -- quote -- "This report reaffirms the very sad reality that there was a tragic and gross violation of duty and care for Michael Jackson. There is obvious legal culpability, which has been the concern of Michael's mother, family and fans worldwide."
Look, whether Jeff thinks we're there or not, the family does. I mean, they are saying somebody needs to pay here. If you're representing Dr. Murray, I mean, how do you defend him?
MICHAEL CARDOZA, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it's difficult because one thing that I very vehemently disagree with, the attorneys for the doctor have walked him into LAPD detectives and let him speak on numerous occasions.
He does have the right to remain silent. And I know there are a lot of people that say, well, if he doesn't have anything to hide, why doesn't he talk?
Well, he shouldn't talk. One of the reasons is because of what we didn't say. In that search warrant, they talk about what he didn't tell the EMTs, the emergency medical technicians and the doctors at the hospital on the day that Michael Jackson died. And that's that he gave him Diprivan.
He told them about other drugs he gave them, Michael, but not Diprivan. That could be some sort they will use it as a criminal state of mind or a guilty state of mind. Doctor, why didn't you say that?
The other thing that's interesting in that search warrant is that he thought Michael stopped breathing at 11:00. Yet, from 11:15 to about noon that day, he's on the phone talking to other people. Why would he be doing that with Jackson lying there, without having called the emergency people to come to the house?
There are a lot of unanswered questions. But I will tell you, these defense attorneys should have never let the doctor talk to LAPD. Let them prove the case themselves. Don't help them.
BROWN: All right. We have to end it there.
But many thanks, Michael, Jeff and Randi Kaye as well. Appreciate it.
We are going to take a closer look at all of the drugs that Michael Jackson was taking. How could he have possibly survived that kind of abuse with so long, with so many people around him saying that they had no idea he was an addict? Tonight's newsmaker, Dr. Drew Pinsky, he's going to join us live.
Plus, breaking health news, the government warning that swine flu could kill 90,000 people this season. That story in the download when we come back.
BROWN: Dr. Drew Pinsky joining us in just a moment for the breaking news on Michael Jackson's death, the coroner, tonight, releasing its preliminary report.
BROWN: When we come back, breaking news in the Michael Jackson investigation tonight. The coroner says the king of pop overdosed. A single law enforcement official telling the Associated Press it's a homicide.
We know Michael Jackson had a history of begging doctors for drugs. So, who is really to blame for his death. Drew Pinsky, Dr. Drew, joining us right -- in just a moment.
BROWN: Now more on tonight's breaking news in the Michael Jackson case, his drug intake in the last few hours of his life shocking, more and more powerful sedatives, one after another, until finally Dr. Conrad Murray gave Jackson 25 milligrams of Propofol.
And, today, we learned the Los Angeles coroner thinks that that is what killed him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALVEAUX: Now to the other breaking news we are following in the death of Michael Jackson. A coroner has reached a preliminary conclusion that the singer died of an overdose of the powerful sedative Propofol.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We don't know what the status was of his liver or his kidneys with respect to metabolizing his medication. But, on top of that, the reports also say that he had received Valium, a downer. Lorazepam, another downer, and Midazolam, another downer, all before the Propofol was even injected.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Michael Jackson was very familiar with Diprivan, or Propofol, this reveals. I mean, he referred to it as -- quote -- "his milk" and referred to lidocaine, was used in that final dilution that this affidavit says that Dr. Murray administered.
He would call that -- referred to that as -- I don't want to misspeak here, but said that it helped the pain go away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining me now, Dr. Drew Pinsky, who is professor of psychiatry at the Keck School of Medicine at USC. He's also host of executive producer of "Celebrity Rehab" on VH-1.
Dr. Drew, good to see you.
DR. DREW PINSKY, AUTHOR, "CRACKED: PUTTING BROKEN LIVES TOGETHER AGAIN": Hey, Campbell. Appreciate it.
BROWN: Let's go through this timeline, first of all. This was from the coroner's preliminary report.
And I just want people to hear this -- 1:30 a.m., Murray gives 10 milligrams of Valium -- 2:00 a.m., he injects Jackson with two milligrams of the anti-anxiety drug Ativan -- 3:00 a.m., Murray then administers two milligrams of the sedative Versed -- 5:00 a.m., he administers another two milligrams of Ativan -- 7:00 a.m., Murray gave Jackson yet another two milligrams of Versed.
And, at 10:40 a.m., Murray administered 25 milligrams of Propofol -- quote -- "after repeated demands, requests" from Jackson.
I mean, I can't -- that's one day. It's kind of a mind-blowing amount of drugs here, Drew. What effect does that have on a patient?
PINSKY: It's truly a mind-blowing amount.
It's also clear that that is not the first time he has received that kind of medication, those sorts of doses, because the fact, if -- if I wanted to take down a large animal, a pachyderm, I would load it just about with probably what he got there, four milligrams of Lorazepam, a couple milligrams of Versed. That would take down almost anything and anybody.
That means he was already extremely tolerant of those substances, possibly in withdrawal. And it was inadequate to stop him in his tracks. These medicines were not just given orally. These were given intravenously. These are massive doses.
On top of that, at his bedside, they found Valium, Klonopin, Restoril, other benzodiazepines called -- these so-called somebody -- you heard somebody refer to these as downers. These are all medications that will induce sleep.
When we want to take down a large male in let's say, at a locked psychiatric unit who's agitated and aggressive, we would give him two milligrams of Ativan by shot. He received four milligrams over a very short period of time. Then on top of that took Propofol which is a relative of barbiturate, and you never use those medicines together. To think that Propofol was the lethal injection is a little bit of a misrepresentation, I think, because any use of Propofol outside of a hospital is potentially lethal.
BROWN: Well, I was going to say, and how can, with all of these drugs in his system, how you could even identify Propofol as the one that actually killed him?
PINSKY: I don't think you can. I don't know why that headline is being promoted the way it is. Because the fact is just that slurry of those high doses of benzodiazepine even with a small dose of Propofol is enough to make somebody stop breathing. In fact, there's sort of a recipe for that.
BROWN: So --
PINSKY: I think it's really the combination that really did him in.
BROWN: Drew, is there any -- just to go back to this -- I think I know the answer. But is there any responsible doctor that you know of that would have prescribed this combination, this quantity of drugs to a patient?
PINSKY: Well, I actually feel very sad for Dr. Murray. I mean, the fact it's clear he went into territory that he didn't fully understand. The idea of giving an addict, somebody with a history of addiction, IV Ativan, I must tell you is outlandish. That's absolutely not what an addict needs. And then to allow the patient determine the medicines that they're going to receive, that's a very disturbed situation.
He was in there alone way over his head. I really feel bad for the guy, but there needs to be a team of people with psychiatric expertise, with addiction expertise, with anesthesia expertise and also with cardiology and monitoring expertise as well. But a single doctor by himself simply could not have managed a situation like this.
And then to tiptoe in with these massive doses of medication, irregardless of the fact that he may have been receiving them for some time, which undoubtedly he was. I mean, to be able to tolerate that dose of medication, he must have been receiving this stuff for some quite some time.
BROWN: Let me ask you, though. PINSKY: It's still just --
BROWN: Who's responsible? Because we're also hearing, you know, he begged. We know he begged at least one nurse for Propofol specifically in the weeks before his death, offering tens of thousands of dollars. And even this coroner's report says Dr. Murray gave him Propofol after -- I read that quote, after repeated demands and requests from Jackson when you've treated abusers for years. Who do you think is responsible?
BROWN: I mean, is it Michael or is it the doctor?
PINSKY: Well, Michael, to my eye, to my understanding based on what we're hearing so far, died of addiction. And the fact is, certainly the addict plays some responsibility in this. But we, as physicians, need to not cave into the demand of addicts. And if we can't withstand their demands, we have no business taking care of a patient like that.
This is a situation where -- that shows really when a power and balance that you set up in a physician/patient relationship, the relationship is adulterated, it's tainted. This is why people with a lot of money and a lot of power give bad medical care. They think they're getting special care but they end up getting substandard care.
There's a reason the standard of care is the standard of care because it's the best. If you demand something other than that, the fact is you're more likely to get something substandard if anything else. And particularly if the patient is determining what it is that the physician should be doing, that's an adulterated situation and that's a situation that's going to go bad for the patient.
BROWN: Dr. Drew Pinsky for us tonight. Drew, appreciate your time as always.
PINSKY: My pleasure.
BROWN: When we come back, the Obama administration now confronted with a question it had hoped to avoid, whether or not to prosecute Bush officials for torture. Today, the attorney general naming a special prosecutor and White House officials dodging questions while on vacation in Martha's Vineyard. The president can run but can he hide from this? That debate coming up next.
BROWN: Like a lot of Americans, President Obama is spending his vacation playing a little tennis, a little golf, catching up on his reading. But when you are the commander in chief, a vacation is more than just fun and games. Take a look at the Obamas family day on Martha's Vineyard.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) KATIE COURIC, CBS ANCHOR: President Obama spent his first full day of vacation on Martha's Vineyard not testing the way the political winds are blowing but testing which way the wind might take his golf ball.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The president is ensconced in this 28-acre private estate which rents for a minimum of $35,000 a week. The Obamas are footing the bill, but that might not matter to critics.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's seen as a liberal enclave of, you know, filled with swells and elites. That gives additional fodder to the right.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And today we also learned the president's reading list. The White House says he brought along the following books to read on vacation. Tom Friedman's "Hot, Flat and Crowded." David McCullough's "Great John Adams." "Lush Life" by Richard Price. The last two books are "Plain Song" and "The Way Home."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Joining me right now, CNN political analyst Roland Martin, senior political analyst Gloria Borger with us as well, and White House correspondent Dan Lothian, also joining us.
And, Dan, major news on this the first day of the president's vacation. The attorney general appointing a prosecutor to look into crimes that may have been committed by CIA interrogators. Give us the White House reaction.
DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, the reaction from the White House is pretty much what you get any time you ask a question about what they think the attorney general should do. And that's essentially takes sort of the hands-off approach.
The White House spokesman today, deputy spokesman pointing out the president when he nominated Eric Holder, he nominated someone who would be an independent thinker and they have no plans at that time or now to get involved in any of his business. In fact, after today's announcement, the White House putting out a short statement saying, "The president has said repeatedly that he wants to look forward, not back, and the president agrees with the attorney general that those who acted in good faith and within the scope of legal guidance should not be prosecuted. Ultimately, determinations about whether someone broke the law are made independently by the attorney general."
BROWN: Gloria, you know, you heard the statement. Attempts to keep this at arm's length may be all well and good, as intentions go, but they have a pretty delicate political problem here, don't they?
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Yes. It's a very tough political problem because when you ask the American people how they feel about these CIA agents who may have stepped over the line in a post-9/11 world, you know, the American public cuts them a little bit of slack here. So what the president has done very conveniently is said, look, my attorney general is independent. So he's put this problem right in front of the attorney general and is clearly trying to distance himself from this issue as a political issue. And I think it kind of works for him. But whatever Eric Holder decides to do is eventually going to be a political issue for this president, no doubt about it.
BROWN: And it's hardly Eric Holder's baby alone. There's been a ton of internal debate about this and a lot of internal disagreement about this and how to approach it, right, Gloria?
BORGER: Oh, absolutely. You know, you have CIA Director Leon Panetta who clearly didn't want to open this can of worms right now. He said, let's turn the page and move ahead. He's got an agency that's completely demoralized, and he doesn't want to look back. And I think it's a big problem for him.
BROWN: OK. So, Roland, move beyond the CIA issue for me, if you would. I know the president still getting his briefings during this vacation, may have some conversations we know on health care. But the White House is saying that they're going to attempt, at least, the Obama family, to have an actual family vacation.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, again, look, first of all, it's no surprise that presidents do this. You know, George W. Bush always went to his ranch in Crawford, Texas. Of course, you had President Bill Clinton go to Martha's Vineyard as well as Wyoming. Of course, a lot of that was also based on polling numbers for President Clinton before the (INAUDIBLE). But you also had President George H.W. Bush going to Kennebunkport.
The bottom line is presidents do vacation. If people are going to make hay out of it, you already have Cindy Sheehan saying she's going to go to Martha's Vineyard saying you should not be doing this, or the troops are at war.
And so people on the left and the right are going to weigh in. But the bottom line is it's rest and relaxation but also this is the president with kids. And so frankly, those kids' summer vacation before they go back to school as well. So, look, that's what presidents do. I say have a great time.
BROWN: And, Dan, very quickly, I know you guys on the press corps basically have been told you're not getting any news this week. We'll see about that. But they've essentially told you, leave us alone, give us some space, go hang out on a beach somewhere, right?
LOTHIAN: That's right while they stay behind the gates of the 28 1/2 acre farm in Chilmark, not far away from where I'm standing right now. But yes, the president I mean all of this is going on in Washington today, but the president really trying to relax here and recharge, as the White House puts it.
We saw last night the president went out to dinner with Valerie Jarrett, his top adviser and her daughter here on Martha's Vineyard. And then this morning, the president took in some tennis with the first lady and then hit the links with some friends. So he is staying sort of out of the focus of the camera for the most part, trying to catch up and get some, as they see it, much-needed rest.
BROWN: Well, we'll see if you get any --
MARTIN: There's some great golf there, Campbell.
BROWN: Yes, I was going to say we'll see if Dan Lothian gets any rest on this little vacation.
BORGER: Well, Campbell, he's got --
MARTIN: So, Dan, trust me, go play at the Vineyard.
BROWN: All right.
BORGER: He's got -- he's got a five-book reading list.
BROWN: I saw it. I saw it. We'll see if he gets through it.
MARTIN: Put the books down.
BROWN: All right.
MARTIN: Mr. President, go play golf. Put the books down.
BROWN: OK, guys. Dan Lothian for us from Martha's Vineyard, lucky guy. Gloria Borger and Roland Martin as well. Thanks, guys, appreciate it.
BROWN: And for more on Martha's Vineyard and one community's long history with prominent African-Americans, check out Roland Martin's special report that's on our Web site. Log on to CNN.com/Campbell.
A supermodel sues Google to expose the blogger who was trashing her online. Well, today, the blogger fights back. And tonight our big question, who is the real victim here?
BROWN: The case of the supermodel versus the blogger is heating up. You remember this. A judge ordered Google to reveal the name of the blogger who trashed cover girl Liskula Cohen. She turned out to be this woman. You see her there, 29-year-old Rosemary Port. Cohen and he lawyer joined me last week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LISKULA COHEN, SUPERMODEL/CYBERBULLYING VICTIM: I was just so grossly offended that I couldn't -- I couldn't do nothing. I wanted it gone and I didn't want it to be there for the rest of my life. And I knew the only way for it to be gone was to call my lawyer.
STEVEN WAGNER, COHEN'S ATTORNEY: Defamation is not protected under the First Amendment. Second of all, she argued in court that there should be a lower standard. That basically this is trash talk and that it shouldn't be allowed because the overall context of the Internet is...
BROWN: Is trash talk?
WAGNER: ... is trash talk. And the judge clearly rejected that and made a very strong statement that basically the Internet is not going to be a safe harbor for defamatory language.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Well, now, the blogger in question here is turning around and suing Google to the tune of $15 million. She declined our request that she appear on the show tonight. But her attorney, Sal Strazzullo -- excuse me, Sal, is joining us along with Nick Thompson, who's a senior editor of "Wired" magazine. And back with us once again, our senior legal analyst, Jeff Toobin, as well.
So, Sal, there are a lot of people who say, you know, this case is cut and dry. Google was ordered by a judge to release your client's name. They did. End of story.
SALVATORE STRAZZULLO, BLOGGER'S ATTORNEY: Well, you know, it's easy to say that. But when it comes to someone's right of privacy, I believe that Google should have fought harder. They should have fought harder to protect my client's rights.
BROWN: But it's not about privacy, is it? It's about defamation.
STRAZZULLO: Sure. No, no, it's about privacy. And if you choose to be anonymous, the court and Google should have protected my client's right to the fullest extent of the law. They did not do enough. And the question is why.
The local mom and pop shop that sells a book affords its customers more protection than this multibillion conglomerate afforded my client. As a matter of fact, Campbell, their only defense was, well, if you give it -- if you get a court order, we're going to have to turn it over.
BROWN: All right.
STRAZZULLO: Never arguing context, never arguing opinion, never formulating a correct defense for my client's due process rights. And at the end of the day, they didn't even bother to give my client ample opportunity to appeal the decision.
BROWN: All right. Jeff -- is
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: I just don't know where you get the right? Do you have a contract with Google? Where is -- where do you get off saying that Google is supposed to do something for your client when your client has done nothing but apparently defame another person using a fake name? STRAZZULLO: Well, your question is taken to the very exact reason why they didn't give my client the right defense here. They didn't give my client an opportunity, a 36-hour window to appeal. This wasn't --
BROWN: But I don't understand why --
TOOBIN: And where does that come from? Where do you get that right within 36 hours?
BROWN: Why does Google have -- I don't understand, why does Google have to defend your client at all, for instance?
STRAZZULLO: Well, because they said that they would. They had attorneys in court, but I don't believe that they did the proper defense of my client's rights. This wasn't a criminal case. This wasn't a death penalty case.
Jeff, you know that there wasn't an immediate emergency here that Google had to reveal her name so quickly. Attorneys know every day they don't have to abide by a court order. They could walk across the street.
BROWN: All right.
STRAZZULLO: They could walk across the street.
TOOBIN: Attorneys do know how to delay. I will agree with that.
STRAZZULLO: They could walk -- they could walk across the street and file an appeal.
BROWN: All right. Sal, let me bring Nick into this.
BROWN: Because with all due respect, it's about more than your case. And my question is, there are a lot of Web sites out there, there are a lot of blogs out there that say really nasty stuff and are really mean, you know, as was alleged of his client. Why target this young woman and her? Is it just because she -- you know, the person she was targeting sued?
NICK THOMPSON, SENIOR EDITOR, "WIRED" MAGAZINE: Well, that's exactly why this one has come out into the public right now. This comes out a lot.
I mean, the big question, there's a very interesting point that you two are making out here. And there are certainly cases where we would want Google to fight on behalf of people who are trying to be exposed by other people in court cases. Right? You can imagine if this case would --
BROWN: Whistleblowers, for instance. THOMPSON: For Iran, right? If the Iranian government said, you violated our laws. Google give up the name. You would want Google to fight with every little bit you have. So the question here is, should Google really go to the map and really do all that in this particular case where it's one person writing nasty comments on a blog?
STRAZZULLO: Well, that's why she has me now because Google --
THOMPSON: And that's why Sal is going to say.
STRAZZULLO: Google wasn't able to afford my client the right protection. They didn't file a memorandum of law and opposition to the request. They did not do anything to protect my client's rights.
BROWN: To you, very quickly. We're out of time.
STRAZZULLO: The next day it's going to be your rights.
TOOBIN: Well, that's the problem here is that, you know, there are certain circumstances where we will care about Internet protection -- whistle blowers, political activists. But in this circumstance, you don't -- it doesn't seem like you have a very sympathetic client.
BROWN: I think that's the problem, Sal.
STRAZZULLO: But it's not for Google to decide who should get what rights. My client is a citizen of the United States.
BROWN: A fair point.
STRAZZULLO: She should be afforded her rights to due process.
TOOBIN: That's a fair point.
STRAZZULLO: And no one -- no one should decide who gets those rights or not other than an appellate division court or the court of appeals.
BROWN: All right. Sal, we'll be very interested to see where your case goes.
STRAZZULLO: Thank you. Thank you very much.
BROWN: It is about much bigger issues.
STRAZZULLO: Thank you, Campbell. Thank you.
BROWN: Appreciate your time, everyone's time. We have to end it there. Thanks, guys.
Take a look at this. It's the picture that rocked the modeling world. In a moment, we're going to meet the model who is changing the shape of fashion.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: She is a pretty, I would say, beautiful girl, with a pretty normal body. The last thing you would expect to see in a fashion magazine these days. And, yes, here she is in the latest issue of "Glamour" posing nearly nude with thick thighs, stretch marks, a little bit of tummy fat hanging out.
"Glamour" has been flooded with positive feedback ever since this issue hit newsstands. Is this the new look for our supermodels? Many of us hope so.
And here with me now is "Glamour" editor-in-chief Cindi Leive and the star of this plus-size shot, model Lizzie Miller. Welcome to you, Lizzie. Cindi, good to see you.
Let me ask you first, Cindi, I know you've been flooded. "Glamour" has. The Web site has been flooded with e-mails saying bravo, bravo, bravo, love it, love it, love it. What is it about this photograph?
CINDI LEIVE, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "GLAMOUR": Well, you know, I think it's a couple of things. I think first of all it's her size because you usually see size two, size four models in those magazines. So she's bigger. She works with the plus-size models. She's a size 12 to 14.
But I also think it was that little detail that you talked about, the roll in her belly which is so natural. It's what so many women see when they look in the mirror every day, but you don't see it represented that often. That's the thing that a lot of people cite.
BROWN: And you were surprised by the outpouring or no?
LEIVE: I was. I mean, I loved the picture. You know as a woman, you kind of love it.
BROWN: Yes, I know.
LEIVE: You see this woman who is so confident, happy she's not sucking her stomach in. Hallelujah. But I was surprised at the fever pitch of the letters, in the intensity of some.
BROWN: And, Lizzie, I understand, you weren't that crazy about them using this picture, at first, were you?
LIZZIE MILLER, WILHELMINA MODEL: Well, you know, I'm just like every other girl, it's like you always want to have the best looking picture. You know what I mean?
So it's like, OK, it's not a flattering shot. But I think that the message that it gave was, I mean, worth more than any other thing.
BROWN: But what is that message? Do you think this is going to change the magazine industry, the way -- I mean -- you know, one photograph, and not to mention, also, in fairness, it was in the context of a story about body image. So are we going to reach a point where we see Lizzie on the cover, and, you know, in doing a fashion spread as opposed to being in an article about how we feel about our body image?
LEIVE: I think so. I mean, can one picture sized three by three inches change an entire industry? I don't think so. But I do think that, you know, when editors hear the voices of women saying we love this, we love this, we love this -- yes, of course, you're going to listen.
BROWN: Do you agree?
MILLER: Baby steps. I think any little baby step that we can take is a step in a positive direction. So, you know, one picture at a time.
BROWN: Do you think we're guilty, I think, as women, that, you know, for us in many ways our magazines are an escapism to a certain amount and we want to look at these glorious, you know, unattainable creatures who we aspire to be in some other world?
LEIVE: Well, listen, I mean, fantasy is great. And all fashion magazines are always going to have some element of fantasy but you want an achievable fantasy. I mean, if it's fantasy that is only there for people who are richer than you or thinner than you or luckier than you, then that's not a very good fantasy.
BROWN: I've got to say, it made me smile when I saw the photograph. I mean, the look on your face is gorgeous. It really is a beautiful picture.
MILLER: Thank you.
BROWN: Are you happy about it?
MILLER: Yes, I'm very happy about it. The fact that such a frenzy that it caused has been amazing. I mean, I didn't even know that I was going to be in this issue. My friends say, hey, you're in "Glamour" magazine. I'm like -- and then all of these, the blogs, the e-mails. I mean, some of the e-mails I'm getting from people are just -- I mean, I've inspired them. It's crazy how this little picture in a magazine, it just shows you how hungry people are just to see more real looking women. Not saying that if you're a size two that you're not real looking, but just an alternative size than just what the media portrays as sexy.
Authenticity, something we can relate to.
BROWN: Lizzie, it's great to have you here.
MILLER: Thank you. It's great being here.
BROWN: Well done, Cindi.
LEIVE: Thank you. BROWN: With "Glamour" magazine, Cindy Leive.
When we come back, one small step for man, one giant leap for Stephen Colbert. We're going to tell you why the comedian or at least his name is hitching a ride on the space shuttle tonight.
BROWN: Tonight's "Breakout," a treadmill named for Stephen Colbert. It's on the space shuttle "Discovery" lifting off in just a few hours. The comedian had one at a room on the space station named after him. This is his consolation prize.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHEN COLBERT, HOST, "THE STEPHEN COLBERT SHOW": I couldn't be prouder that my treadmill will soon be installed on the International Space Station to help finally slim down all those chubby astronauts. Let's face it. Being weightless is mostly just a desperate bid to get away from that bathroom scale every morning.
But you guys and gals are ambassadors to the universe. Don't make us look bad. Put down the astronaut ice cream tubby. Tubby, tubby two by four, couldn't fit through the air lock door. It's Buzz Aldrin, not "butt" Aldrin.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: OK. "LARRY KING LIVE" starting right now.