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ISSUES WITH JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL
Michael Jackson`s Death Ruled a Homicide; Doctor Admits Giving Jackson Drug Cocktail; Tipster Claims to Know Location of Missing Woman
Aired August 24, 2009 - 19:00:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, a horrific murder case erupts with a new twist. Ryan Jenkins, the reality TV star accused of strangling and partially dismembering his swimsuit model ex-wife, is discovered hanging by a belt in a motel room in Canada. But the motel`s manager says it wasn`t Jenkins` room. He says the room belonged to a 20- something-year-old blond female. Did Ryan Jenkins have an accomplice?
Then can a phone call made to a TV show lead police to a missing woman`s body? "America`s Most Wanted" profiled Kristi Cornwell`s disappearance Saturday night. That`s when a viewer phoned in to say Kristi could be found in North Carolina. Cops are searching the area frantically as we speak. But what about the so-called tipster? Will cops search high and low for this person, too?
Obesity, it`s an epidemic plaguing our country, fueled by processed and fatty feuds. Tonight, we`re going to debate PETA`s controversial "Save the Whale Dad" and talk about the real cost of cheap food.
And what about Washington`s message? When Michelle Obama urges people to eat their veggies, is anybody listening? It`s the story you`ll only find here on ISSUES.
Plus, a head-spinning confession. An Arizona woman casually talks on camera about torturing a wheelchair-bound man to death. She claims she drove a nail through his brain and pulled his teeth out, some of this while he was still alive. Is this the sickest thing you`ve ever heard? Has she done it before? Or are we looking at a pathological liar?
ISSUES starts now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, major breaking news in the Michael Jackson death probe. Court documents reveal what could have led to the death, along with shocking, and I mean, shocking details about what exactly went down in the hours before Jackson died on June 26.
A single law enforcement official tells the Associated Press that the Los Angeles county coroner has ruled Michael Jackson`s death a homicide. CNN is currently working to confirm that report. A search warrant affidavit unsealed just hours ago -- and I`ve been poring through it right up until air time -- exposes the minute-by-minute account of Dr. Conrad Murray`s attempts to put Michael Jackson to sleep that day.
Dr. Murray also tells cops about the cocktail of drugs he administered. But the coroner`s preliminary assessment of Jackson, quote, "lethal levels of Propofol. Murray felt that Jackson may have been forming an addiction to Propofol and tried to wean Jackson off the drug, end quote."
So has Dr. Murray been consistent throughout this investigation? Or has his story changed? He insists he`s sticking to one version: the truth.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DR. CONRAD MURRAY, MICHAEL JACKSON`S PERSONAL PHYSICIAN: Don`t worry. As long as I keep God in my heart and you in my lives, I will be fine. I have done all I could do. I told the truth. And I have faith the truth will prevail.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But the timeline could be very problematic.
So many breaking developments tonight. And straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst; Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and author of "And Justice for Some"; Tom Ruskin, former NYPD detective, investigator and president of CMP Protective and Investigative Group; Dr. Hal Urschel, addiction specialist and author of "Healing the Addictive Brain"; and Mike Walters, assignment manager for TMZ.
Mike, TMZ has been on top of the story from the start. What is the very latest?
MIKE WALTERS, ASSIGNMENT MANAGER, TMZ: Well, Jane, like you said, explosive documents. I`ll get right to it. I mean, the bottom line here is the day Michael died, let`s go right to that. Starting with 1:30 in the morning, he starts to give Michael -- and this is according to his own words in the affidavit that we have -- we obtained -- he started to give him drugs at 1:30, including Valium, Versed, Adovan, and then admits that he gave him Propofol in the morning, like at 10:40 a.m.
This is all through an IV, you know, use of IV with these drugs. He admitted that at that time he decides that he`s going to go to the restroom for -- maximum of two minutes. He comes back and says Michael is not breathing around 11 o`clock.
Now let`s see the timeline again. One more time. He then says that he didn`t make any phone calls. But they got his phone records, and it says that he called three people for 47 minutes in the time of 11 -- around 11 and then 911 at 12:21. If do you the math, about an hour and a half goes by before anyone calls 911, way more than him and his lawyer wanted to admit.
Also, lastly I`ll say this: six weeks, he says he was giving him Propofol to sleep, which is not right. And two, his lawyer -- or him through his lawyer said that he did not know Michael Jackson was an addict. How about the fact that it takes all these drugs to get him to go to sleep in one night? You know what? I don`t believe it.
And he also says that he saw the track marks on the hands and feet and questioned Michael. None of it makes sense. And I think this is all bad news for Dr. Murray.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: There is so much to talk about here.
Lisa Bloom, I want to go to this whacky, unbelievable timeline of drugs that the search warrant says Dr. Murray gave Jackson in the early morning hours: 1:30 a.m., Jackson got ten milligrams of Valium; 2 a.m., Murray gave him Lorazepam. That`s an anti-anxiety drug. Three a.m., approximately an amnesiac drug. Five a.m., more Lorazepam. Seven a.m., more amnesiac. Finally, 10:40 a.m., he`s still not asleep. Michael Jackson is still up at 10:40 in the morning and Dr. Murray gives him Propofol, the surgical knockout drug.
Why would the L.A. coroner conclude, according to what CNN has been told, preliminarily that Michael Jackson died of an overdose of Propofol? Why not say a drug cocktail?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He got a lethal dose of Propofol is my understanding of what this coroner`s report says, according to the search warrant affidavit. I think we all have to be careful and take this with a big grain of salt, because we have a police officer quoting another police officer, quoting a preliminary coroner`s report that has not been released yet.
But if all of that is true, and if it`s the Propofol that caused Jackson`s death, and if it was reckless, as every medical professional seems to think that it was, for Dr. Murray to administer in the home outside of a hospital, and on top of that, he`s making phone calls to people other than 911 for 47 minutes after the time that Michael loses consciousness and before he calls 911, Dr. Murray is in a heap of trouble based on this new information today. Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Now Wendy Murphy, this is another shocker. When I was reading this thing, I was absolutely blown away. According to the search warrant, Dr. Murray says Michael Jackson couldn`t get to sleep without Propofol in the early mornings of June 25. That`s when he died.
So by 10:40 in the morning he decides, "I`m going to give Jackson Propofol." Then at 10:50 he leaves the room to, quote, "relieve himself." Two minutes later, he comes back and finds Jackson not breathing. That would bring us to approximately 10:52 a.m.
When was 911 called? At 12:21, an hour and a half later. And he is, according to the search warrant, taking three cell phone calls that last approximately 47 minutes, between 11:18 and 12:05. What does it tell you?
WENDY MURPHY, AUTHOR, "AND JUSTICE FOR SOME": Unbelievable. This is a beautiful manslaughter case. And if you ask me, I`d bump it up to murder, because all you need for murder is malice. The difference between manslaughter and murder is malice.
And the fact that they`ve said homicide so far doesn`t mean there`s been a selection yet. Homicide could mean manslaughter or a low degree of murder.
But the reason I say that is because, when you`re reckless a little bit, that`s manslaughter. When you`re real reckless, like this guy was, that`s murder.
And I -- what I`m shocked about is not so much that Propofol caused the death. That`s been out there. I wrote about it in my "Daily Beast" column a couple of weeks ago. Everybody`s been talking about that. It`s that it was the icing on the cake.
I mean, this guy may as well have taken a hammer and cracked Michael Jackson in the head. To give him that after all of that other juice. I`m not a doctor. I looked Trazodone, another one of the drugs in the, quote unquote, cocktail. Trazodone, if you just look on the Internet, is not supposed to be used with any anesthesia. Hello, Dr. Murray! What were you doing?
Everything he did was so beyond the pale, so far past negligence, that I hope we stop talking about this as some kind of medical malpractice case. Let`s frame the issue: it`s a battle between manslaughter and murder. And that`s what Dr. Murray knows.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Hal Urschel, addiction specialist.
DR. HAL URSCHEL, ADDICTION SPECIALIST: Yes.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You heard the litany of drugs he kept giving him, hoping not to give him Propofol. And at the end of the day he`s still up, and he says, "All right, I`m going to give him Propofol."
URSCHEL: Right. Well, the combination medications in the first place is incredibly dangerous. What it really shows is that Michael Jackson did have an addiction to a class of substances called benzodiazepines. That`s what all of these medications are.
And when you add all of these medications together, and then you add Propofol, a very dangerous medicine, when not used in a hospital setting, on top of that, it is very, very deadly.
Obviously, Michael Jackson had an addiction problem to these medications. So why -- why wasn`t that addiction being addressed? Why wasn`t it being treated?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we discussed that ad nauseam. Because Michael Jackson -- according to some, wouldn`t let anybody in who tried to help him.
Now we know the name of the 911 CALLER: security detail person Alberto Alvarez. This is the mystery guy. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is he on the floor? Where is he at right now?
ALBERTO ALVAREZ, SECURITY FOR MICHAEL JACKSON: He`s on the bed, sir. He`s on the bed.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let`s get him on the floor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, let`s get him down to the floor. I`m going to help you with CPR right now...
Did anybody see him?
ALVAREZ: Yes, we have a personal doctor here with him, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, you have a doctor there?
ALVAREZ: Yes, but he`s not responding to anything, to no, no, he`s not responding to the CPR or anything, sir.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, OK. Well, we`re on our way there, and if your guy`s doing CPR, as instructed by a doctor, he has a higher authority than me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tom Ruskin, this mystery man, now we know who he is. Alberto Alvarez. Could he become the key witness?
TOM RUSKIN, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: He is going to -- he is going to be a key witness, along with all the other people who were there that night. If the doctor was making calls at a time he should have called 911, I agree with Wendy. He may be charged with murder, and I would be leaning towards that heavier charge.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I`m going to tell you something. I got a call from somebody very close to the Jackson family with a theory about who he was calling. I`m going to discuss it, coming up after the break.
More on the Michael Jackson death probe in just a bit.
We are also taking your calls: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
A missing Georgia woman and a tipster phone call telling police her body is 200 miles away. Will the call send police to Kristi Cornwell?
Then to the Associated Press reports Michael Jackson had lethal levels of Propofol in his body when he died. So are cops any closer to naming a suspect?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MURRAY: Please, don`t worry. As long as I keep God in my heart and you in my life, I will be fine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL JACKSON, POP STAR: Out of the country, undergoing treatment for dependency on pain medication. This medication was initially prescribed to soothe the excruciating pain that I was suffering after recent reconstructive surgery on my scalp.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Michael Jackson, 1984 [SIC], confessing to a drug addiction. Clearly, an affliction he was not able to overcome, dying prematurely.
It is a sad story and we`re learning so many shocking details as this search warrant and affidavit reveals to the public. Wow. It`s a humdinger.
Phone lines lighting up. Bertha, South Carolina, your question or thought, ma`am.
CALLER: Yes, good evening, Jane. And good evening to our outstanding panel. My question is why has Dr. Murray not been arrested? It`s quite obvious a crime has been committed.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I think that`s an excellent question. Why don`t we throw that one at Lisa Bloom?
BLOOM: Well, I think we have to be fair to Dr. Murray. We`re only hearing the law enforcement of the story. We`re getting search warrant affidavits released publicly every couple of days so we get the law enforcement side. And remember to get the search warrant that they want, they put in all the facts that tend to indicate there was a crime that`s committed.
In the video you see here Dr. Murray maintains that he is innocent. But other than that, we haven`t heard his side of the story.
Apparently, at this moment in time they simply don`t have enough yet to arrest him.
Now, we understand that the coroner`s report has already taken place. It just has not been publicly released. But perhaps they just don`t have all the dots connected, all the "I`s dotted, all the "T`s" crossed. I think that`s an outstanding question. I think it`s important not to convict him in the media.
And by the way, he says that he was helping Michael Jackson with his addiction. He was trying to wean him off of the Propofol. So there is a defense side to the story.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wendy Murphy.
MURPHY: Oh, please.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I got a call just before I walked into the studio from someone very close to the Jackson family, who was extraordinarily agitated and said, "We want to know who Dr. Murray was calling on his cell phone before the paramedics were called in that 1 1/2-hour gap," 47 minutes of which was, according to the search warrant affidavit, spent on the cell phone.
Now, this person claims that they have a theory that perhaps he might have been calling AEG, since he believes he worked for AEG. AEG, the promoter was theoretically his employer, one could argue. I have no idea if that`s true. We`d love to talk to AEG about that. But if it is true, hypothetically, could AEG have a problem?
MURPHY: You know, that`s a very hard question to answer without utter and total speculation. And I`m not against speculating when I admit it up front that`s what I`m going do.
But I will say this. People who have said AEG took a responsibility on when they agreed to hire him. It wasn`t that -- that he just showed up out of the blue. AEG said, "You go there and take care of Michael Jackson." You can`t do that willy-nilly and just let the guy start shooting him up with dope and then giving him Propofol. In some -- in some regard they had a responsibility to oversee him, because they hired him. So you can see a negligent hiring theory developing. I don`t know about criminal responsibility.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But Dr. Hal -- Dr. Hal, your -- you`re the addiction specialist. You send a doctor in to help an addict and all an -- addicts want to get is drugs. And no matter what you tell them, that`s what an addict wants and will demand.
And so this, in essence, in his defense put him in an impossible situation by telling him, "Take care of Michael Jackson to the point he can show up for work," when this guy will stay up for many, many, many hours without sleeping.
URSCHEL: Actually, I don`t think they did. I think that -- any physician that comes in contact with an addict, begging for medicine, that physician needs to get that addict help.
You can always call in another physician, call in an army of physicians, to be able to get that -- to get that patient the treatment they need.
The real message here is that addiction is a chronic disease that is treatable. People thinking Michael Jackson, with all the money he had, he still died, a lot of the public will think, "Hey, addiction is treatable. So why go -- why go get treatment?" That`s not true at all.
Obviously, I don`t think that Dr. Murray actually had the training in addiction that he needed to have to -- therefore, he needed to get the right doctors in there to help Michael.
MURPHY: Well, I think you`re absolutely right. As a recovering alcoholic myself, he didn`t need a cardiologist. What he needed was an intervention.
URSCHEL: And most physicians are not trained in addiction treatment. There have been so many great scientific findings that have come in in the last five or ten years that most physicians that are currently practicing have never heard of. And therefore, they`re doing the patient a disservice if they`re not bringing in experts.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Jenny in Illinois, your question or thought?
CALLER: Yes, good evening, Jane, and the panel. My question is Dr. Murray -- if he is board certified, first of all? And where did he get his medical degrees? Was it, like, some Caribbean island?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OH, wow. That`s a hot potato. Lisa Bloom, I always -- I always hit you with the hot potatoes.
BLOOM: Yes. I don`t know. I don`t know where he got his medical degrees. I can`t answer that question.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In Grenada. I just got -- I got -- my producer, Grenada. Grenada. Remember, that`s the island that -- where all those students were...
BLOOM: I do remember.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Reagan liberated the students.
BLOOM: But you know, a lot of good doctors get Caribbean medical degrees. I don`t want to impugn all of them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, I wouldn`t at all.
MURPHY: It has been -- it has been reported that he twice tried to take his board exams and failed. So that matters.
He`s not -- look, he`s not an anesthesiologist. He`s not an addiction expert, and he was giving anesthesia and drugs to a drug addict. Hello.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The problem -- the problem is that he claims he was trying to wean Jackson off the Propofol. The reason why he gave him the other drug, the Valium-type drugs was that, "Oh, I hope he can sleep with this." Well, he gave one after the other after the other, and it failed to knock out this hard-core addict.
And therefore, at the end of the day, he had to hit him with the drug he was trying to avoid all along. And that`s when the bad thing happened.
URSCHEL: But he didn`t have to treat -- Jane, he did not have to treat him with Propofol. It`s OK. Somebody`s not going the die if they don`t go to sleep.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right, right.
RUSKIN: Yes. We all know that, if you give drug after drug after drug, you`re not going to wean anyone off of anything. And all during the night, he kept giving him more and more drugs until the time he gave him maybe the fatal shot of Propofol.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And we have to leave it right there. Thank you, fantastic panel.
A bone-chilling jailhouse interview with a woman who claims she tortured a man to death. We will analyze her shocking confession. And we`ll have the latest on the investigation. It`s wild.
Then, do you eat your veggies? Every day, more and more Americans fight the dangers of obesity. We`re going to...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Could there finally be a break in the case of a missing Georgia woman? A listening tipster says Kristi Cornwell is in North Carolina.
"America`s Most Wanted" told HLN they got a tip to look for Kristi near a home on a specific private road. But the caller did not say if Kristi was dead or alive. Unfortunately, police have now been searching that area for two days, and they haven`t found anything.
Kristi was on the phone with her boyfriend when he heard her screaming "Don`t take me." Can you imagine the horror of this woman`s family, what they`re going through now?
Here`s her mom on "Good Morning America."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JO ANN CORNWELL, MISSING WOMAN`S MOTHER: I want them to know that we love her very much and we need her back. Her son needs his mother back. And I need my baby back. We all need her back. And we believe we`re going to get her back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That poor woman. She is just in a living hell.
Straight out to Tom Ruskin, former New York City police detective/investigator, president of CMP Protective and Investigative Group.
There`s got to be something here, Tom, besides "look for her" to make detectives take this tip to "America`s Most Wanted" so seriously, correct?
RUSKIN: Well, I assume that they have traps on their phone. I`m assuming that they can track back where the call came from. At least I`m hoping so. And then they have to follow up on the lead. But they also have to continue the investigation from where they`ve been going up until date.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, we spoke to the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. And one of the officials there said this tip is a dud. And the GBI never put much weight in this tip.
Nevertheless, we also know they searched the area, and cadaver dogs either have been or are going to be brought into the area. So those are mixed signals, is how we`d like to describe that.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Could they be downplaying this because they think there`s something there?
RUSKIN: I don`t think that they`re downplaying or up-playing. I think that they`re following the lead where it takes them. I think that that`s what`s going to be important here.
And I think they have to follow any other tip that they may have gotten, that they may not have publicized. This woman can be found, her body, or her can be found. I think that the more time that goes on, the less chance that we`re going to have a chance of finding her alive.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But they`ve been inundated with tips. How did they pick this one particular tip and say this tip has value?
RUSKIN: Because it`s based on what the tipster said to them. And based on what they know. They may have other leads that lead them to that area, and then they take this tip. And this tip may lead them to where she may be alive or dead.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The cadaver dogs will probably tell one way or another. When they get the cadaver dogs there, if they haven`t been there already, if they don`t hit on anything, then probably it`s a phony lead. Now...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: ... is there a legal penalty for calling up and giving a fictitious lead in a horrific case like this? There should be.
RUSKIN: There should be, but very rarely are there. There are a lot of nuts out there. I`ve worked on many, many cases and working on a case now where we`re getting tips that are sending us in all kinds of directions, and the police are, too. You know, there are a lot of people out there who just -- they fantasize about this and take advantage of this for the police.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This is such a sick case. I keep thinking over and over again, where is this woman? I`m walking down the street. This woman is somewhere, and the family is in hell. We have to do what we can to find her.
Thank you so much.
RUSKIN: I think our prayers have go out to her and the family.
A swimsuit model found stuffed in a suitcase dumped in a garage. Her ex, the suspect in her murder, found dead. We`ll have the latest.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Obesity is an epidemic plaguing our country fueled by processed and fatty foods. Tonight we are going to debate PETA`s controversial "Save the Whales" ad and talk about the real cost of cheap food. And when Michelle Obama urges people to eat their veggies is anybody listening? It`s a story you will only find here on ISSUES.
Then, a head-spinning confession: an Arizona woman casually talks on camera about torturing a wheelchair-bound man to death. She claims she drove a nail through his brain and pulled his teeth out; some of this while he is still alive. Is this the sickest thing you ever heard or are we looking at a pathological liar?
Startling news tonight in the tragic murder of 28-year-old model Jasmine Fiore: her ex-husband and the prime suspect in her murder reality TV star, Ryan Jenkins, found dead from an apparent suicide.
Their deadly relationship started with a quickie Vegas wedding back in March. Despite domestic violence charges and an annulment, the couple seemed happily back together in a video posted on Jenkins` MySpace page just five days before her murder.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RYAN JENKINS, MURDER SUSPECT: Wow. God, I love my life. And I love my wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: How could that turn into murder and suicide? We will dissect check the fine line between love and hate.
This tragedy began to unfold about a week ago when Jasmine Fiore`s dismembered body was found stuffed into a suitcase and tossed into the garbage. The prime suspect, Ryan Jenkins was on the run.
The international manhunt came to a halt this weekend when he turned up dead. He was hanging by his neck in a sleazy hotel room.
Jasmine`s mom and an ex-boyfriend responds to that news and we have all been wondering what is going on with this case. It is a mystery. The mystery remains.
Who is the blond woman who checked in to the motel for Jenkins? Canadian authorities say they know who and where she is but that is it. No other details.
TMZ reports she is Ryan Jenkins` ex-fiance. Wow. What kind of charges could this mystery woman face?
Straight out to my fantastic panel: Wendy Murphy, former prosecutor and author of "And Justice for Some;" David Schwartz, criminal defense attorney; Judy Kuriansky -- Dr. Judy -- clinical psychologist; Tom Ruskin, former NYPD detective and president of CMT Protective and Investigative Group; and Pat Brown, criminal profiler and CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency.
Pat, we look at that video of her dancing in front of the camera and he`s behind the camera saying, "Wow, I love my life. And I love my wife." Now, she is murdered and he is dead from suicide. How does that happen?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILE: Well, if we are talking about a psychopath who loves things temporarily when he doesn`t really love things like in any kind of strong emotional way. Basically all his possessions -- he loves all his possessions and he lost one of them that made him mad.
So now he had a problem. He was about to lose his life, too -- in a sense, he was going to go prison. And for this boy who likes the party life and Las Vegas and pretty girls, perhaps prison life just didn`t appeal to him too much.
DR. JUDY KURIANSKY, CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST: I say add to this, Jane, this is not just a psychopath. This is a sadist. Because he -- or by the way, perhaps someone else helping him cuts off fingers and also pulls out teeth.
I`m a dentist`s daughter. You are not able to just yank out teeth. Something far more sadistic had to happen, possibly to smash in her face in order to get those teeth out which would have to be yanked out. Sadism plays here and a lot of sexual overtones.
TOM RUSKIN, FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE: And it`s also to cover up the crime.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Is it sadism if it is done after death?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Presumably he strangled her...
KURIANSKY: Yes, that is...
BROWN: No, it isn`t.
KURIANSKY: That is a kind of sadism.
RUSKIN: A lot of times, someone who`s committing a crime, cuts off the fingers, knocks out the teeth, because they don`t want the dental records or the fingers. What he forgot about is that her breast implants had serial numbers on them and that`s how the police finally ties her to him.
KURIANSKY: Who would even think about it?
There`s a lot of sexual sadism involved here. You have, in fact -- his choking her to death is -- I`m going to be sitting in Freud`s chair here -- she`s choked to death then he is found hanging by a belt which, by the way, has overtones of that sexual anoxia.
BROWN: Oh, no, no, no -- that`s a way to die.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with Dr. Judy that everything has significance.
BROWN: The way you kill yourself has psychological significance.
KURIANSKY: Exactly, it does.
BROWN: Jane, sadism is something that requires the victim to be alive because the point about sexual sadism is that you watch the person suffer and carry it out on longer and longer and longer, watching the eyes and....
KURIANSKY: Come on.
BROWN: That`s what sexual sadism is.
KURIANSKY: That`s only one part of it.
DAVID SCHWARTZ, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I think, unfortunately, Jane -- unfortunately, Jane, in many of these domestic violence cases, the writing was probably on the wall a long time ago.
I know that video it showed something completely different but when you are dealing with volatile relationships, in a domestic violence case, there`s the highs and lows. And it`s too extreme sometimes where the writing is on the wall that something is going to happen.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I agree with you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second guys -- there was a history of violence against women by this particular suspect.
Let`s go to the mystery woman issue. Canadian authorities say they know who and where the mystery blond is who helped Ryan Jenkins get that motel room, paying in cash and then she drives off in her Chrysler and Canadian authorities talked about this. Let`s hear them first.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ALLANA HERRLING, MOTEL EMPLOYEE: She was about 20, 25, blond hair, very pretty. She was driving a silver PT Cruiser with Alberta plates. She rented the room and we hadn`t seen her since. She just came for that one day and had checked in and rented the room.
I don`t know if he had paid her to rent the room or if he knew her or not. But she had rented the room and she had left right away.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Again, Canadian authorities are saying they know who this woman is but they are not saying where she is or what she is going to do. TMZ claims that the blond is this woman, Ryan Jenkins` ex-fiancee but authorities will not confirm that. We have no independent confirmation of it.
Her agent says she was working on Friday night and was nowhere near that motel. So we certainly don`t want to involve this poor woman if she has absolutely nothing to do with it.
But there is this mystery. Wendy Murphy, why on earth would anybody want to help a guy who everybody in the world knows is on the run because he allegedly strangled and dismembered his wife?
WENDY MURPHY, AUTHOR, "AND JUSTICE FOR SOME": Well, first of all, you this for not making me debate sadism on dead bodies. I appreciate that.
One thing though...
BROWN: Why not Wendy.
MURPHY: I think what`s interesting is we don`t know -- we don`t know if this is a family member but if it is just one of these ex-girlfriends, whether it was the one you are mentioning or some other one, she wouldn`t be the first idiot to fall in love with a murderer type. I mean, even Scott Peterson to this day has a fan club of idiots who love the guy.
I don`t care about that. But here is what I want to know. I know that Canadian officials are talking about we know who she is. We know what she`s done. When are they going to arrest her because it is a pretty serious crime, even more in the United States, to aid and abet a felon after the fact to help them evade justice?
It is a very serious crime in Canada. And you know, the family can`t have justice now because the guy killed himself. That`s not, you know, a terrible thing maybe for them. They are glad. I don`t know. I don`t think anybody deserves to die but they deserve some kind of justice. And maybe if she helped him either get here from the United States or hide in that stupid motel, you know, she should be prosecuted.
That`s a serious crime...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: David, you are the lawyer. It is in Canada though.
SCHWARTZ: Why should she be arrested, though?
RUSKIN: It is also provided she knew. You have to prove that she knew that he was -- you know, fleeing from authorities in the United States and that she just wasn`t helping them out and renting them a motel room.
MURPHY: We all knew. We all knew.
RUSKIN: But we are not in Canada.
SCHWARTZ: What did she do, Wendy? What`s the evidence against her?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Some people don`t watch TV.
MURPHY: I don`t care.
MURPHY: You can draw reasonable inferences from her behavior. She kept him hidden in her car.
SCHWARTZ: What was her behavior?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to go. Got to leave it right there, guys. I forgot my gavel today. I got to bring it back.
In Arizona a woman claimed she tortured a man to death. Is she telling the truth or is she a pathological liar?
Then obesity: epidemic plaguing our country. Who is at fault? I want to hear from you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Is an Arizona woman who claims she tortured a wheelchair-bound man to death telling the truth? We will get to the bottom of that mind-boggler in tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Last week we aired this startling, shocking, head-spinning jailhouse conviction where Angela Simpson said, quite proudly it seemed, she tortured Terry Neely because he was a "snitch." She claims she did everything from pulling his teeth out to driving a nail into his brain. That`s why he was still live forcing to look into mirror before she set him on fire.
Dr. Judy Kuriansky is here to help us analyze this almost incomprehensible story.
But first let`s go out to a fantastic reporter, Marissa Wingate, our KTVK affiliate reporter who conducted this chilling interview. Kudos for getting this woman to open up. What was it like to sit there as she admitted to this horror?
MARISSA WINGATE, KTVK REPORTER: Thank you, Jane. Well, she was very surprisingly well spoken. She was articulate. But she showed no remorse. She had no guilt. In fact, she felt like she had done the world a favor by ridding it of a so-called snitch.
And she even admitted to us that it wasn`t her first murder. She says she killed at least three others. She says those were either child molesters or snitches. Of course, police are looking into that right now.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I congratulate you for maintaining your composure. I would have fallen off right my chair.
Simpson actually said she enjoyed killing Terry Neely. Now listen to why she says she did it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANGELA SIMPSON, CONFESSED TO MURDER: I don`t want my children or the people I consider family to be in a place where there are snitches.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Judy Kuriansky, this woman is just so casual and she said she would tell cops everything for a candy bar.
KURIANSKY: Yes. That is flat affect that we`re seeing or even if she is smiling which has been in some scenes, it is still not real affect. And it is consistent with a psychosis. More than just what we`ve talked about often on the show about psychopathic personalities added with sadism.
The woman has obviously had a lot of delusions as well, Jane. And I think that`s what explains how she is behaving and how flatly she is admitting to all these atrocities.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Not only was Angela Simpson nonchalant while admitting to these unspeakable acts, at one point she broke out in a smile and a chuckle how long it took cops to catch her. Check this out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SIMPSON: Kind of relieved, actually.
WINGATE: Why relieved?
SIMPSON: Well, because finally...
WINGATE: Finally what?
SIMPSON: I just...
WINGATE: Finally they caught you?
WINGATE: Because you have been doing this for a while?
WINGATE: For how long?
SIMPSON: A while.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Marissa, she is grinning at you. Again, I would have fallen right off the chair. What was -- did you get like your hair standing up on your arm kind of a -- sense of horror?
WINGATE: It was unbelievable actually Jane. I kept thinking that maybe I could get some emotion out of her. I kept talking about her children, that sort of thing but no emotion whatsoever, completely cold, no remorse; nothing there. It was very shocking and surprising.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This woman has children? Dr. Judy.
KURIANSKY: This is the profile of this kind of psychotic person who may, by the way, also I would like to suggest could have organic brain syndrome. That would also explain a complex of the way that she is behaving with no affect or inappropriate affect and some even delusions and this simplistic behavior about the candy bar.
It goes to show how there are very gruesome women who commit very horrific sadistic crimes as we have often covered and you have covered on this show.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I think it is also part of how America has made crimes somehow cool when it should be repugnant. It should not be celebrated. It is a sickness, it is evil. It is disgusting. It is not cool.
I want to thank both of my guests and great job on that report. Really good work.
WINGATE: Thank you.
Now, turning to an eye-popping PETA billboard that has triggered a hot debate over the nation`s obesity epidemic: check out this sign from Jacksonville, Florida. "Save the whales. Lose the blubber. Go vegetarian."
After an uproar PETA toned it down. They replaced the first billboard with this billboard. Here it is "Gone: Just like all the pounds lost by people who go vegetarian." The truth is America`s obesity epidemic keeps getting worse. And polite suggestions to eat more fruits and veggies do not seem to be working.
The numbers are jaw-dropping. Two-thirds of Americans are officially overweight; that`s about 200 million people. Half of those or 100 million people are obese.
And -- are you ready for this -- poor diet and lack of exercise are about to overtake tobacco as the leading cause of preventable death in the United States.
Let me welcome my fantastic panel to debate it out. Marilyn Wann, author of "Fat? So!" and PETA President, Ingrid Newkirk.
Ingrid, PETA did it again, a controversial billboard that sends a lot of backlash. Why did you put up the original billboard and why did you then tone it down?
INGRID NEWKIRK, PRESIDENT, PETA: Well, I hate to say it and I`m awfully sorry but sometimes you need tough love. And what we`re talking about here are two issues. One is a lack of discipline from most people who are overweight or obese who are setting a very bad example for children. And the other is cruelty to animals because in America today, we eat a million animals an hour and all the cheese that we can squeeze out of them. And that`s globs of fat.
You see "Time magazine," the cover of this week, "Is cheap meat contributing to obesity?" And yes, it is. Because also today, KFC which slams those chickens into shackles, breaking their legs, breaking their wings, came out with a double chicken bacon cheese gravy burger. And they did it because people will eat it because we have become comfortable with stuffing ourselves in the United States.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Let`s get the other side of the story. Marilyn Wann, you are the author of "Fat? So!" What do you say to Ingrid Newkirk, the President of PETA?
MARILYN WANN, AUTHOR, "FAT? SO!": We know and this is a long history of PETA doing hate speech against a group of people. And I`m here today to ask Ingrid and PETA to stop doing hate speech against fat people like me.
Hate never helps a group of people. I would love to be in solidarity with the animal rights message but as long as PETA advances its agenda on the backs of fat people, I`m going to be asking them to stop fueling discrimination.
NEWKIRK: Oh, it`s not hate.
WANN: And in the fat activist community it is hate. I get to decide who is hating me. And you`re not tough loving me you`re hating me...
NEWKIRK: I don`t hate you.
WANN: ...when you`re make a joke at my expense.
WANN: ...you`re using, the discrimination against fat people to advance -- in fat community what I was just about to say is that we really encourage fitness and good nutrition for their own sake.
NEWKIRK: Well, what about eating fruits and vegetables?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just -- let me just say this -- you both said your piece. Now, I`m going to take full disclosure, I`m a vegan. I`ve always struggled with my weight my entire life. But because I don`t eat anything but fruits and vegetables and nuts and grains that eliminates a lot of junk food and I am able to eat the five to nine servings of fruits and vegetables that the USDA actually recommends...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: But very few Americans actually eat. The whole idea is that nice conversation, the USDA, the Surgeon General, this "Time" magazine article, none of the normal chatter about hey, eat your fruits and vegetables seems to work.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Take a look at the First Lady Michelle Obama; she opened up a garden, a fruits and vegetables in the White House, urging kids to eat fruits and veggie.
But people just aren`t doing it now.
WANN: When you associate good behaviors with fear of fatness, you predispose people to avoid those behaviors. In the fat community we know that if you love your body you take good care of it and you get good nutrition and regular exercise and that people...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. Ingrid...
NEWKIRK: We have an obesity epidemic among children. Being fat and coddling fat people to look that way doesn`t help the kids eat right. Get the 30-day veg pledge at peta.com.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. Food and sugar addiction -- it`s a real issue, I`ve struggled with those issues. In my new "I Want," I reveal details of my battle with alcoholism. How I finally got sober 14 years ago then I had to battle a sugar addiction. I can tell you how I did it.
Order my book, cnn.com/jane; look for the pre-order section. It will help you if you have an eating disorder.
And stay right there. We`re going to have more on this controversy in a moment.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: First lady Michelle Obama dove into the food fray. Here`s the first lady planting a vegetable garden back in June at the White House. School children were helping out. The obvious point, encourage fruit and vegetable consumption.
But when you look at this week`s "Time" magazine cover -- I don`t know if you could see it there -- it has a pound of ground round and it talks about the real cost of cheap food and argues the U.S. government is subsidizing giant agribusiness and thereby essentially subsidizing the cheap beef and the cheap dairy on factory farms that`s contributing to the obesity crisis.
The theory here is that Uncle Sam is creating the very health crisis that we want to create a health care system to cure. A lot of people including myself wonder why should my tax dollars be going to subsidize bad eating habits and the health problems those bad eating habits create because it`s billions and billions of dollars in health care costs.
Now, I want to go to Kim in Florida. She has something to say about this. We would like you to weigh in. Kim?
KIM, FLORIDA (via telephone): Yes I am.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi there.
What`s your thought or question, ma`am?
KIM: My thought is that food addiction in America has been going on for years. Now it is evident that food is going to be the number one killer combined with drugs and alcohol. We have a system in this country where you can drive through and pick up your food so conveniently.
And I`m glad PETA put that billboard up because sometimes it takes that kind of attention to draw us to an issue. (INAUDIBLE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. We`ll start with Ingrid and then we`ll go to Marilyn.
Ingrid, the point is that there are health costs associated with obesity. Now, the way we got people to get out of denial about smoking is we had these ad campaigns that said smoking is very glamorous and we had people smoking out of their neck because they had a hole in their neck and they were still smoking.
Now, that was obnoxious. Are you equating your ad to that shock value?
NEWKIRK: I think we need to be kind to animals and we need to be kind to people but sometimes you need a short shock. And the fact is you will lose at least 10 pounds, you will reduce your chance of heart disease by at least 40 percent and you will probably increase your life span by at least seven years if you chuck out the bacon and go with oatmeal.
We do have a free vegetarian starter kit for anybody who wants to give it a go. That`s better than gastric bypass surgery or a tummy tuck.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right, you`ve had your say. Marilyn?
WANN: You know, my friends who are fat vegetarians and vegans are very angry that PETA is using hate against a group of people to advance vegetarianism which we all love.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a minute.
You really say believed vegans are -- because it`s just not true. Vegans don`t have the same obesity level as non-vegans.
WANN: I really believe that people should eat well and exercise well and we will all be different bodies including fat bodies. And we need to stop discriminating and hating an entire group of people because that`s bigotry. PETA is selling bigotry.
NEWKIRK: No one hates you.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to say that I feel we must have compassion and that I have struggled with weight and eating. And I think that we have to come from a position of kindness.
But we also have to agree and we have to admit that there`s a crisis in this country and it`s killing people. Killing isn`t kind either. And kids are being killed by obesity.
WANN: Bad nutrition is not good for anyone fat or thin.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: So I want to thank both of the panel members for a healthy debate.
NEWKIRK: Thank you Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I appreciate both of your viewpoints. You are watching ISSUES on HLN.