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CNN LARRY KING LIVE
Michael Jackson's Death: Coroner's Preliminary Finding
Aired August 24, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, breaking Michael Jackson news. The coroner's preliminary finding revealed -- the singer died from a drug overdose. Killer levels of a powerful anesthetic were found in his body.
Was it murder?
Just released papers document the shocking chain of events and detail what his doctor did to the pop star in the hours before his death.
Could there be charges?
Plus, the number one suspect in the grisly death of his wife, the man who allegedly removed her fingers and teeth, apparently kills himself.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a man hanging from a belt from the ho -- from the coat rack. That was it. Death is not a pretty scene.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: Who was Ryan Jenkins and what was a guy with a history of assault doing on a reality show?
Next on LARRY KING LIVE.
Our guests are Randi Kaye, CNN correspondent, with us here in Los Angeles.
Dr. Drew Pinsky, the host of VH1's "Celebrity Rehab" and author of "The Mirror Effect: How Celebrity Narcissism is Seducing America."
And in New York is Dr. Mwata Dyson, anesthesiologist and clinical professor at Stony Brook University.
In addition to the coroner's initial findings, the Associated Press is quoting a single now, unidentified law enforcement official as saying that the L.A. County coroner has ruled Michael Jackson's death a homicide.
When CNN asked the coroner's office about this report, the response was "no comment." A spokesman for the LAPD told CNN the story did not come from that department.
So what is the story -- Randi?
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The story is that it appears that Michael Jackson had a real cocktail of drugs in the hours before his death. According to the search warrant and the affidavit that we got today from Houston, at 1:30 in the morning, Dr. Conrad Murray, his personal physician, gave him 10 milligrams of Valium. He thought that he was addicted to Propofol, which is this very powerful sedative, as you know, really just supposed to be used in the hospital. So he was trying to wean him off it. So he gave him Valium first.
At 2:00 a.m., half an hour later, he gave him two milligrams of this anti-anxiety drug, Ativan.
At 3:00 a.m., he tried giving him another sedative called Versed.
And then at 5:00 a.m., more Ativan, another two milligrams.
At 7:30 a.m., another two milligrams of the -- of the Versed; also, monitoring his oxygen levels at that time.
And about 10:40 a.m., according to these -- this -- this warrant and this affidavit, Michael Jackson made repeated demands -- repeated requests for the Propofol, so he finally administered -- Dr. Murray finally gave him 25 milligrams of that.
But he watched him for about 10 minutes, apparently, then he left the room to use the restroom. He said he was only gone for about two minutes maximum. And when he came back, he said that Michael Jackson was no longer breathing.
But here's the...
KING: But what took so long for the 911 call?
KAYE: Exactly. Here's the key thing. He said that that was at 11:00 a.m., when Michael Jackson wasn't breathing. That 911 call wasn't made until 12:20 p.m. So in that hour and 20 minutes, who was he talking to, because the documents show that he made three phone calls that lasted 47 minutes.
Why wasn't he calling 911 at that point?
KING: That's not answered by the coroner yet?
KAYE: Absolutely not.
KING: The Jacksons, by the way, released this statement earlier today: "The Jackson family has full confidence in the legal process, commends the ongoing efforts of the L.A. County coroner, the L.A. District Attorney and the L.A. Police Department. The family looks forward to the day that justice can be served."
Is that day going to come, Dr. Pinsky?
DREW PINSKY, HOST, "CELEBRITY REHAB," ADDICTION EXPERT: Something's going to happen, that's for sure. I mean this is a very challenging record. I mean it looks bad for Dr. Murray. I actually feel bad for him. It seems to me, I keep thinking he got himself in a situation where he was way over his head with a patient that he didn't understand, that it really would take a team of professionals to properly manage.
KING: Can you guess on that time between calling the 911...
PINSKY: I cannot. That -- that's the most bizarre part of the story. I mean there are many bizarre things in this story. Administering...
KING: If there were a bathroom...
PINSKY: Administering Versed outside a hospital, bizarre. I.V. Ativan, bizarre. You never give that to an addict. And then putting Propofol on top of that slurry and then what happened in the intervening hour, it's -- it's a very challenging topic.
KING: Our Propofol expert is in New York. Dr. -- Dr. Mwata Dyson, anesthesiologist and clinical associate professor -- assistant professor at Stony Brook.
Have you ever heard of Propofol giving out -- given outside a hospital, doctor?
DR. MWATA DYSON, ANESTHESIOLOGIST: Larry, to be honest with you, I haven't. Primarily, we use it in the hospital and we use it in surgery centers for sedation and to put people to sleep before general anesthetics. Propofol is not used in a labeled structure for insomnia or to put people to sleep because they have difficulty sleeping.
KING: Then what would it even be doing in a house?
DYSON: To be honest, with you, Larry, it shouldn't be in the house. It should only be used in hospital settings where there's trained physicians, such as anesthesia providers like myself, where there is a problem with respiratory depression or, in Michael Jackson's case, where you stop breathing, that we could further resuscitate him.
KING: All right. So when you do it in a hospital, who else is there while that's being administered?
DYSON: Well, I'm in academic setting, so normally, there's myself as an attending, as long as an anesthesia resident...
KING: All right.
DYSON: There's nurses in the room, as well as surgical residents, as well as an attending surgeon.
KING: And oxygen? DYSON: Whenever we give any respiratory depressant agents like Propofol, we always have a number of monitors that each patient has to monitor their blood pressure, to monitor their heart weight, to monitor their oxygen saturation, as you alluded to, as well as their respiration rate.
KING: Can you guess as to the time between what happened to him and the call to 911?
DYSON: Well, the thing with Valium and Ativan, as well as Versed and Propofol, they're all respiratory depressants. So if they're all given at one time or if they're given successfully one behind another, the patient can stop breathing.
KAYE: We know, Larry, that he -- that Dr. Murray did try to -- to reach Michael Jackson's personal assistant, who was there. He yelled for Kai Chase, the chef. He tried to get Prince Jackson, his oldest son, to try and help him call 911.
KING: Why not punch the 911?
KAYE: Apparently, there wasn't a phone in the bedroom. Why he still waited an hour and 20 minutes...
PINSKY: He had a cell phone.
KAYE: He had a cell phone. He called secure...
PINSKY: And many...
KAYE: -- one of the security detail with his cell phone.
PINSKY: In many cities, 911 has a...
PINSKY: ...has a...
KAYE: And he failed to tell investigators, when he was questioned twice, that -- that he made these other phone calls in between.
KING: Thank you, Randi.
You landed just in time.
KAYE: Yes, I did.
KING: But one other thing, do we know for a fact or is this just one isolated report to the A.P. about homicide? KAYE: We know that -- well, there's been a lot of talk that there would be some manslaughter charges coming. They've been looking for evidence of manslaughter, really, this whole time.
KING: But this is one person, right?
KAYE: This is one single source. And, again, the -- the coroner's office saying no comment. LAPD is saying no comment. And the key thing here, really, is that we called the district attorney's office, who would get the case before any charges were filed...
KING: And what did they say?
KAYE: They said they haven't even received the case. So they -- they first have to consider charges once they do.
KING: But the coroner could have denied?
KAYE: Exactly. They didn't deny.
KING: Thanks, Randi.
You stay, OK?
We'll be back with more. It goes on and on.
Don't go away.
KING: Dr. Pinsky and Dr. Dyson remain with us.
Joining us from Davie, Florida is Dr. Cyril Wecht, the forensic pathologist and attorney.
Dr. Murray's attorney, by the way, has responded to all of this. It reads, in part: "Much of what was in the search warrant affidavit is factual. However, unfortunately, much is police theory. Most egregiously, the time line reported by law enforcement was not obtained through interviews with Dr. Murray, as was implied by the affidavit. We will not comment on an anorma -- an anonymous law enforcement source that claims that Michael Jackson's death will be ruled a homicide. Most of the reports by anonymous sources have been proven wrong. We will be happy to address the coroner's report when it's officially released."
Dr. Wecht, your reaction to these court documents indicating the coroner has made this preliminary report, if true?
DR. CYRIL WECHT, FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Based upon what we have been hearing, Larry, certainly there's no surprise vis-a-vis Propofol, Diprivan. It remains to be seen what the toxicological analyses reveal insofar as lorazepam, Ativan, Trazodone and other drugs that are of concern.
If all of these drugs, Restoril, are also shown, then this would be a classical case of acute combined drug toxicity. This is something that we see to a great extent.
The big difference in this case, Larry, is that there are two of these drugs that are administered only parenterally -- they cannot be taken by mouth -- Diprivan and Versed.
As the anesthesiologist has already pointed out, quite correctly and succinctly, these drugs are to be administered only by trained anesthesiologists, nurse anesthetists under the supervision. You have to have...
WECHT: ...you have to have all of those things ready in case something goes wrong, specifically respiratory depression.
KING: And Dr. Pinsky wanted to ask Dr. Dyson something.
PINSKY: Yes. Dr. Dyson, I've never heard of Versed and Diprivan being given simultaneously. That seems like a -- just by itself, a deadly combination.
DYSON: Well, contrary to popular belief, we give it everyday for preoperative patients?
DYSON: We give them together.
DYSON: Whenever we see patients during a surgical procedure, they're nervous, you know, as you could imagine, whenever someone is going to cut on you. The first thing we do is give Versed. Either we give it in the holding area or, a lot of times, we give it in the operating room. At...
PINSKY: But (INAUDIBLE) isn't -- isn't the Propofol, though, with a benzodiazepine, like lorazepam, which is a longer acting, longer than the -- but that combo is not exactly what you'd call safe, right?
DYSON: In a hospital with an anesthesiologist or an anesthesia provider standing right there by the patient with standard monitors, we do it on a daily basis.
KING: So Versed is given right before they'd give Propofol, right?
KING: They calm you down and then they give you...
WECHT: Yes, Versed is a common...
DYSON: Yes, we do.
WECHT: ...it's commonly used with colonoscopies. You're talking to your doctor, they give you the Versed and then you wake up and it's all over and you can't believe it.
KING: They also do it with the cataract. They do it with cataract surgery.
Dr. Wecht, could you explain, from am L.A. coroner -- from a coroner's standpoint, what the difference is between homicide and murder?
WECHT: Well, the difference is on the death certificate, Larry, the medical examiner or coroner has five choices, in decreasing order of frequency of occurrence -- natural, accident, suicide, homicide or undetermined. It is my opinion that this is going to be signed out as a homicide because of the fact that the Diprivan and the Versed were used at home under the circumstances that we have been discussing, that you have these drugs, the multiplicity, the...
WECHT: ...the -- the...
KING: Yes, I know. But it was not, Dr. Wecht -- I don't want to be redundant, but it was not -- it would be homicide, not that the doctor was doing it to kill him, right?
WECHT: Exactly, Larry. An excellent point. Not with any intent. You don't have to demonstrate any intent at all. You put it down as a homicide if you believe that, in this case, as I do believe, this was gross, wanton negligence. This goes beyond medical malpractice.
WECHT: This goes beyond a breach of normal medical care.
KING: Dr. Dyson, can you imagine, in your -- take me to any extreme, where you would you'd administer this in a house?
DYSON: I cannot think of one, Larry. And even in the hospital, I don't give it to the patients unless I'm absolutely sure that I can put a breathing tube in the patient in the event they stop breathing.
KING: Because that's one of the things that could occur with this, right?
DYSON: It's a powerful drug. We know it puts you to sleep. But it also shuts down your ability to breathe and it decreases your blood pressure. We could never give the medicine in a controlled setting without the ability to reverse those effects.
KING: Psychologically, Dr. Pinsky, what do you when a -- with a famous patient who wants something?
PINSKY: Well, that's the -- that's the other layer to this, is you have somebody with a history of addiction. You do not expose addicts to be benzodiazepines if you can possibly avoid it. They are highly addictive substances.
This kind of a power imbalance, where the patient is determining what their care is going to be, is an adulteration of patient/physician relationship. It's why people with power and money sometimes get not such good care. They think that they need something special when, in fact, the standard of care, which Dr. Dyson has been talking about, the standard of anesthesia care, is the standard of care because it's the best. We give only the best care to everybody. And when you start seeking out special care and you yourself demand certain care, you're going to more than likely get substandard care than good care.
KING: All right.
Dr. Wecht, can you try to figure out what took so long to call 911?
WECHT: No, I cannot, except I think I can surmise and infer, with some degree of logic, that those phone calls which you have referred to, Larry, were being made to people, what do we do now?
And resuscitative measures were undertaken. In fact, an antidote to benzodiazepines was administered by Dr. Murray. So he tried. It was too late.
The -- the delay is another point, by the way, with regard to a homicide charge with...
WECHT: ...insofar as the gross wanton negligence is concerned.
KING: I've got you.
Thank you, Dr. Wecht, as always; Dr. Pinsky, as always; and Dr. Dyson, thanks for your expertise.
DYSON: Thanks for having me.
WECHT: Thank you, Larry.
KING: Who do you blame for the Propofol in Michael Jackson's body, Jackson or the person who administered it?
That's our blog question tonight. Go to CNN.com/larryking and tell us what you think.
Deepak Chopra told us two weeks ago that Michael Jackson was a drug addict. We'll get his take on this news in 60 seconds.
KING: Here in Los Angeles, Mark Geragos, the famed defense attorney who represented Michael Jackson for a time.
In San Diego, Robin Sax, former deputy D.A., Los Angeles County.
But we want to spend moments with Deepak Chopra, who joins us on the phone, the physician and spiritual leader and longtime friend of Jackson.
You've spoken out on this show about your concern about Jackson's drug use.
What's your reaction to these facts we learned today?
DEEPAK CHOPRA, PHYSICIAN, SPIRITUAL LEADER, JACKSON FRIEND: Well, I'm not surprised. I think the mentioned before that once Michael had told me that there's something that takes you to the edge of the Valley of Death and then brings you back from there. At that moment, I had no idea what he was talking about.
I said, what the heck -- what -- what are you really talking about?
And he quickly changed the subject.
Now, in retrospect, of course, I realize he was talking about Propofol. What's really astonishing is that this kind of drug, it's not a scheduled drug, as you know. The DEA does not call it a scheduled drug because it is not something that is usually abused. The only history of abuse of Propofol is amongst medical doctors and anesthesiologists. So the fact that he was given this outside of a hospital setting definitely makes it a homicide.
KING: What do you make...
CHOPRA: Not that the doctor intended to kill him, as has become obvious. He lost a client.
KING: Why do you think Dr. Murray administered so many of those drugs?
CHOPRA: He was trying to please his client, who was paying him $150,000 a month.
KING: Are you surprised about any of this?
CHOPRA: I'm not surprised. Do you remember, Larry, I mentioned this on the first day that I came on your show, that this was something that was bound to happen. I think the bigger question here is Dr. Murray is the one who's going to be blamed for this because he injected the drug. But from what I learned is he never prescribed this drug. So I think it's incumbent upon whoever is doing the investigation to find out who are the physicians who prescribed all this stuff that was given to him, because I think they're equally culpable, even though, in the eyes of the law, Dr. Murray is the one who's guilty.
KING: And were you surprised it took so long to call 911?
CHOPRA: Not really. I think he -- he didn't know exactly what he was doing. He was probably not an expert in the use of Propofol. You know, mostly it's anesthesiologists who do this. So I think he panicked.
CHOPRA: And he also gave, from what I heard, an antagonist to the benzodiazepine.
KING: Thank you, Deepak.
We'll be seeing you again soon.
CHOPRA: Yes, thanks, Larry.
KING: There are legal ramifications to the coroner's initial findings. The attorneys will tell us who's in trouble, right after the break.
KING: We're back.
We'll get Mark Geragos' and Robin Sax's thoughts in a moment.
The attorney for Katherine Jackson, Londell McMillan, said this about the coroner's preliminary finding: "This report reaffirms the very sad reality that there was a tragic and gross violation of duty and care for Michael Jackson. There is obvious legal culpability, which has been the concern of Michael's mother, the family and fans worldwide."
Mark Geragos, what do you make of this?
MARK GERAGOS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I don't think that it's going to be very long before you see some criminal charges filed. And I think. You're going to see both criminal charges and. You're going to see the medical board jump in at the same time and try to revoke licenses of more than just the person who is filed on criminally.
KING: Robin, from what you sketchily know, would you say there's a prosecution coming?
ROBIN SAX, FORMER L.A. COUNTY PROSECUTOR: Absolutely. I agree with Mark, there is a prosecution on its way and we already saw, through the release of the search warrant today, the theory by which they're looking at. They say, the science says in the search warrant, the detective involved in the case says that they are pursuing a manslaughter investigation. That's a statement from LAPD signed under penalty and perjury.
KING: Mark, is it a crime to it -- even though you're not an anesthesiologist -- for a doctor to administer Propofol?
GERAGOS: No. No. It is not a crime.
KING: Then what are you charging him with?
GERAGOS: Well, if you're going to say that -- this is what the -- where it would become a crime. If you can say that this person did something that was legal, but it was such a gross deviation from the standard of care or what you normally would do, that would be supply the mental element that you need in order to commit the crime.
KING: Even though it's not a premeditated murder, right Robin?
SAX: Absolutely not. Just the fact that you actually did it and knew, especially in this case, with Michael Jackson, everybody in the world knew that he had a drug addiction problem. So, especially his caring doctor would definitely be under that duty to know that, as well.
KING: All right. And the -- the fact of the late call to 911, would that enter into an indictment, Robin?
SAX: Oh, absolutely. There are so many numerous consciousness of guilt factors here that we can start just from the very beginning -- the refusal of Dr. Murray to sign the death certificate; the late call to 911; all the phone calls to everybody else but 911; Dr. Murray being nowhere to be found after he was dropped off at the hospital with Michael Jackson.
And I can go on and on, including the statements he made to Mr. Posner on television last week.
KING: What about, Mark, the prescribing physicians?
GERAGOS: Well, I think that's one of the reasons you haven't seen anything yet and why you keep seeing all of these search warrants. They want to know -- and we have said it at least a month ago -- they have, obviously, bottles that have lot numbers. So they go back to the manufacturer. They see from the manufacturer where did that get shipped to, which pharmacy. Then they go to the pharmacy, do a search warrant, see who was prescribed...
KING: Didn't they raid a pharmacy the other day?
GERAGOS: They raided a pharmacy here in L.A. They raided one in Las Vegas. They've raided pharmacies all over the place.
KING: So could...
GERAGOS: They want to see where it is.
KING: ...Dr. Klein be in trouble?
GERAGOS: Well, I think that, clearly, Dr. Klein is in the -- on the bubble here. He's somebody who's got exposure. I think that's why he's lawyered up, and appropriately so.
Obviously, the doctors -- and I don't want to overstate this. Just because you have trouble does not mean that there are not defenses.
GERAGOS: I mean, clearly, there are valid defenses and. You're going to see and hear them.
KING: Robin, is a pharmacy in trouble?
SAX: Well, the pharmacy could be in trouble for administering drugs that they were self-prescribed and, again, that it goes against what Dr. Klein has already made statements about. But if Dr. Klein was given drugs and they were prescribed to himself in Mickey Fine Pharmacy -- and that was the pharmacy they were talking about were the ones that gave them, there could be problems coming.
GERAGOS: Well and when you start seeing pharmacies that have $100,000 bills -- a monthly bill, and if they're -- if they're under numerous names yet dispensed to the same person, even though that may be a common practice in Hollywood, it's not necessarily legal. And you're going to see, I think, the A.G. take action in those cases, as well.
SAX: I agree.
KING: Robin, is it -- what if the defense is, hey, this is Michael Jackson, I'm under a lot of pressure?
Is that a defense?
SAX: It's not a defense. It's not a legal defense. It may be a sympathy factor. It may be something that may get a couple jurors to think, oh, I feel really bad for Dr. Murray.
However, I still think that when you start looking at Michael Jackson and the sympathy for him and the untimely tragedy of his death and a death that could have been prevented by something that could not have been administered by themselves, I think that sympathy factor goes away.
GERAGOS: This has got to be -- I don't envy anybody who has a pick a jury in this case. We were trying to go through the -- today at the office -- who would you want as a juror in this case, if this case is filed and it's in downtown Los Angeles.
KING: All right. Who does the prosecution want? GERAGOS: Well, the prosecution is going to want people who are obviously sympathetic to Michael Jackson. The -- your blog question tonight is a question that you -- you basically are going to want to ask -- are you somebody who blames the person who's taken the drugs or the person who's administering the drugs?
That's kind of the watershed question as to whether or not somebody is sympathetic to your position or not. And I think...
KING: And the defense wants what?
GERAGOS: And the defense is going to want, ideally, somebody who's going to say, look, the patient has got to take personal responsibility, blah, blah, blah. And you're -- you're going to want almost the -- the opposite of what you normally would take.
KING: Robin, could this be a...
SAX: That's what I was going to say.
KING: ...could this be a...
GERAGOS: It's counter -- very counterintuitive (INAUDIBLE).
KING: Could this be a tough prosecution -- I mean a hard to convince?
SAX: I think that this is going to be a tough prosecution. This is not a slam dunk case. There's all kinds of sympathy factors. There's the Michael Jackson question and for all those questions.
I do agree with Mark that this is kind of a role reversal -- the juror he's picking in mind is the one I normally want and the one that he probably -- the one I would pick in this case (INAUDIBLE)...
KING: It's a reverse.
GERAGOS: It is. It's exactly...
GERAGOS: That's why I said it was -- we were standing on our head today in order to kind of sort out who you would actually want in this one.
KING: Quickly, Robin, how close do you think we are to some indictments here?
SAX: Well, I -- I can't answer that question until I know. I think Dr. Murray, they're pretty close to. But I don't know that they're not going to do it altogether with all the doctors at once.
KING: Oh, yes?
SAX: The L.A. County D.A.'s Office is going to be really careful, making sure that they appear to have a thorough investigation and making sure they actually have a thorough investigation. And until all the alphabet groups come back with their results, I don't know that we're going to see it right away.
KING: Thank you both.
SAX: Thank you.
KING: Mark Geragos, Robin Sax.
The man suspected in that grisly death of his wife apparently has killed himself.
Anyone see that coming, next?
KING: This just in; a senior administration official tells CNN that President Obama intends to renominate Ben Bernanke for another four-year term as Fed chairman. That just in. We report it right to you.
OK. Let's discuss this incredible matter that occurred last week. Stuart Brazell is the casting director for "Megan Wants a Millionaire." She recruited Ryan Jenkins for the show. Gwendolyn Beauregard knew Jasmine Fiore, the victim, since Jasmine was 11 years old. She was with us the other night. She thought of Jasmine as a daughter.
Ryan Jenkins, the reality TV contestant, charged in the savage murder of his ex-wife, has been found dead in a secluded motel in Canada. The apparent cause is suicide by hanging.
We have also learned that Ryan may have attempted a suicide six or seven years ago, also over a woman. And in an interview this morning on "The Today Show," Jasmine's mother had this to say about the man who married and then allegedly murdered her daughter. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This man was a professional con man, you know? He was -- he targeted women, I believe. He wanted to be something that he wasn't and I think he wanted to be and have what Jasmine had. I mean, she was for real, you know? She earned what she had. And, you know, he was just fake.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: We know from the other night that Jasmine also called you mother or mama. What's your reaction to the suicide?
GWENDOLYN BEAUREGARD, JASMINE FIORE'S "SECOND MOTHER": Well, I am relieved. I'm very relieved that there was a suicide and Ryan's no longer on this plain. It helps us -- the family and extended family -- so that we can get on with our lives. We don't have to go through a trial and all the pain that brings up as well. We have a sense of relief.
KING: Stewart, before we get into questions --
BEAUREGARD: I also have some concern.
KING: Hold on one second. Hold on, I'll get back to you. The audience is thinking this, Stewart?
STUART BRAZELL, CAST RYAN ON "MEGAN WANTS TO MARRY A MILLIONAIRE": : Stewart, it's my middle name. I've gone by it since I was four. I'm southern. So southern people love the double names. It was Susan Stewart. But I was a Tom boy. I had to have my way. At the age of four, I said call me Stewart.
KING: You, Stewart, cast Ryan Jenkins for "Megan Wants a Millionaire." What was the reaction first before the story broke, before you learned about a suicide?
BRAZELL: Shock, disbelief. It took me 24 hours to even process that it truly happened. I could not believe what I was seeing, that it was everywhere, just complete disbelief. Then tragedy for these families.
You know, when you know someone who is so closely connected -- I just felt such despair for them.
KING: What kind of contestant was he?
BRAZELL: Ryan was the ideal contestant for these shows. You want a big personality. You want loud. You want someone that's entertaining and that's going to cause conflict in the house. That's exactly what I looked for and that's what he was.
KING: How did you come to cast him?
BRAZELL: The way this works is, a lot of times you travel from city to city. My first city was Las Vegas. You go in a team. It is two people. I was there with a co-worker. Literally had landed in Vegas two hours later. Was at the Venetian. Took an escalator down. First person comes over, baby, baby, baby. He hit on me.
I met him because he approached me. I said, well, I'm going to use this. Part of what I do is I recruit talent for these shows. You literally go --
KING: He's trying to date you and you say to him, you want to be on a show?
BRAZELL: He was just having fun. It's Las Vegas. He's there to have fun with his boys. There was a big porn convention. They were there to enjoy what Vegas has to offer. I happened to be a pretty face that he wanted to come and talk to.
KING: Did he go right away for being on the show?
BRAZELL: Right away. He talked to me -- it took a couple sentences and he was down for it immediately, and then started talking about how he always wanted to be a movie star and actor. He was the perfect candidate for the show.
KING: Gwendolyn, I'm sorry I interrupted you. What were you going to add to what you said?
BEAUREGARD: I have concerns about his suicide, because my understanding is that he hung himself, but his feet were on the ground. So somehow that doesn't compute in my mind. I'm waiting to hear further evidence or further discovery of his suicide.
KING: OK. By the way, an FBI profiler tells us about the warning signs Ryan Jenkins might have exhibited. Why didn't anyone know this? Why didn't Stuart know this? That's next.
KING: Before we bring in Candice Delong, who is our former FBI profiler, a couple more things -- Stuart, you remain with us as well. Did you see any hint that this guy might have been violent?
BRAZELL: You know, I was completely shocked that he would have been capable of doing this. Obviously these type of people that everyone enjoys watching -- he was charismatic. He was a lady's man. People were drawn to him. He ran around talking in tons of voices.
I could see that he could be a loose cannon. No, did I think that he was capable of murdering his wife? Absolutely not.
KING: Didn't he get married while he was on the show.
BRAZELL: No, the show had wrapped. He was done filming. A lot of the cast members came from Vegas, because, as I told you, that was the first city. So he kind of came to hang out with them, met Jasmine, married her three hours later.
KING: Did you know her?
BRAZELL: I did not know her.
KING: Did he text message you after he married her?
BRAZELL: He did. He text messaged me the next day and said, I met the love of my life. This is the woman of my dreams. Just how happy he was. I would also say that he was happy to marry someone from the U.S., because he was very much looking for citizenship. I think that had a big part to do with it as well.
KING: Candice Delong, let's take a look at an excerpt from "Megan Wants a Millionaire," featuring the interaction between Megan Hauserman and Ryan Jenkins. Then get your thoughts. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MEGAN HAUSERMAN, "MEGAN WANTS A MILLIONAIRE": You're cute.
RYAN JENKINS, ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED SUICIDE: So is this the best date ever?
JENKINS: I'll tell you at the end.
HAUSERMAN: I don't know if Megan and I have had enough time together for her to actually loosen up and really get to know me.
HAUSERMAN: I feel like you're manipulating me.
JENKINS: I wanted to show her a little bit of vulnerability to maybe make her a little more comfortable with me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: All right, Candice, you're a profiler. Profile him.
CANDICE DELONG, FMR FBI PROFILER: Well, from everything we've seen, in addition to this little clip, these guys are master manipulators. They can control themselves in their waking environments, their working environments. They control their angers, their tempers. It's the wives and girlfriends in private that suffer from guys like this.
What interests me is on the clip with Megan, is that he said I wanted to show her a little vulnerability. Wait a minute. Vulnerability is a spontaneous -- you either have it or you don't. It's not something you put on the vulnerability suit.
KING: Also, Ryan Jenkins had a past history of violence towards women. He got 15 months' probation in 2007 on assault charge and apparently maybe a suicide try. What do you make of all that?
DELONG: Let's talk about the assault first. Probably the most reliable indicator or predictor of future interpersonal violation is past interpersonal violence. So having a history of battery against women in his past would certainly make him a bad bet for a husband or boyfriend for the future.
As for the suicide attempt; the variety of reasons why people may attempt suicide -- but without question the vast majority of people don't. Here's a man who obviously is questioning whether he wants to be on this Earth, certainly ended his life that way, and thought about it before. It's an unstable guy.
KING: Gwendolyn, before you leave us, were you surprised that Jasmine married someone so quickly?
BEAUREGARD: Well, like I told you the other night, I didn't know that she was married to Ryan. And it's my understanding --
KING: When you learned it, were you surprised?
BEAUREGARD: I learned it after her death. And I was deeply surprised, because she was my confidant, and I was hers. I was very close to Jasmine. KING: Thank you, Gwendolyn. We'll be calling on you again. Next, we'll remain with Stuart and Candice. Next, their loved ones were killers. They found out after it was too late. Back with Ron Grantski and David Smith in 60 seconds.
KING: Joining Stuart Brazell and Candice Delong in Modesto, California is Ron Grantski, the step-father of Lacy Peterson. Lacy's husband Scott now on death row for the 2002 murders and Lacy and her unborn son, Connor. For a long time, Ron Grantski loved Scott Peterson. David Smith is in Greenville, South Carolina, former husband of Susan Smith. She is serving a life sentence for the 1994 murders of their young sons, Michael And Alex. Remember she said it was a black man that did it. David had no knowledge of anything like that.
Want to show you something first. TMZ obtained video of Jasmine poolside in Las Vegas. You can hear Ryan commenting about his wife. Watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENKINS: Wow. God, I love my life. And I love my wife. I love you, babe. Luckiest guy in the world right here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KING: All right, Ron. You had a son-in-law that was kind of smooth, didn't you? How do you react to surprise?
RON GRANTSKI, STEP-FATHER TO STACY PETERSON: It's always a shame. But it's understandable that -- I don't know where these people come from. They look so nice and so -- they treat women so well, and they turn out to be the devil. I don't understand that.
KING: David, do you have any knowledge your wife had something wrong with her?
DAVID SMITH, WIFE MURDERED CHILDREN: Larry, you know, at the time nothing that was, you know, a tell-tale sign. I can look back now and see little things. But at the time I didn't have any clue, Larry.
KING: So the surprise is substantial, right?
SMITH: Oh, very much. I stood by Susan for those nine days.
GRANTSKI: I remember.
SMITH: Trying to find Michael and Alex. I never suspected her at all. It was very shocking.
KING: We'll have more with our complete panel right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) (NEWS BREAK)
KING: Let's ask each of our guests about early warnings. Stewart, did you see anything, in retrospect, that you could have said -- I should have saw something?
BRAZELL: Once this happened, I replayed this and replayed this, so devastated for Jasmine, the family. You kind of go through, was there something there? And to be honest, I would have met Ryan. He was like anyone else. For a show like this, you put hundreds of people on camera, come in and out of your lives. This was a different show, because we were looking for a fluent gentleman, so we spent more time with them. I was with him in a social environment. He just seemed like a happy, go lucky guy. I would say he could be a loose cannon, if provoked. But this? No.
KING: Ron, did you see anything in Scott Peterson?
GRANTSKI: You know, I was thinking about that today. And again, I think about it a lot. But I remember about four weeks before Lacy was murdered. They were over at our house. They came over for dinner a lot. He was always a gentleman to Sharon and to Lacy. He'd open the wine and pull out the chairs and then wash the dishes. And of course, it made me look bad.
But I remember when they left and I'd ask Sharon -- I said, what -- you know, Lacy must be getting a little nervous, getting close to Connor being born. And she said no, this was Scott's idea. He wanted to start getting closer. And I -- for some reason, it just didn't ring true to me. Something just -- I mean it didn't make sense.
GRANTSKI: I always think about that.
KING: David, you mentioned earlier about signs. What about Susan Smith caused you to think, in retrospect, yes, maybe?
SMITH: In the weeks -- now that I think about it, in the weeks before Michael and Alex's death, Susan was going out partying a lot. She was leaving Michael and Alex with me or with family or other friends. She was doing a lot of partying, distancing herself from spending time with Michael and Alex.
But at the time, I just, you know, thought it was just because we were separated and she was trying to, you know, deal with things. Up until the time she murdered Michael and Alex, Susan was a good mother, up until that point. But, you know, I don't know if there was anything that anybody can really -- unless it's something dramatic, can really identify that something bad's going to happen, unless it's something totally out of their character.
KING: Well said. Candice, is there any thread that runs through people who never seem to do anything crazy and then do something crazy? DELONG: Well, in a lot of cases, what's necessary for the person to do something outrageous -- and there's never been a hint of violence -- is a perfect storm, a perfect storm of circumstances that leads to some kind of desperate, desperate move.
In the case of Susan Smith, I'd like to ask David: I've never understood why she simply didn't pick up the phone and call you and say, would you take the kids; I don't want them anymore? And I'm wondering, David, do you have any idea why she didn't do that?
SMITH: I really believe because, you know, she -- it was a small town. And I really think Susan thought she would get away with the murder of them.
DELONG: Less embarrassing.
SMITH: She didn't think she'd ever get caught. She tried to get away for it with nine days.
KING: I'm puzzled. I'll get into it after the break. Why do they kill? First this.
KING: All right, Candice, why, though -- we understand there, they tend to be violent. They may hit people. They may act a little extreme. Why do they kill? And in this case, why do they kill themselves?
DELONG: Well, they -- generally, they kill because it's easier. It depends. In the case that we're talking about tonight with Jasmine, this was a man who had been violent in the past towards women. So there was a little bit of a prediction there, could have been made, that this might happen.
In terms of the suicide, oftentimes the killer doesn't think things through. He thinks he's going to get away with it. In this particular case, it was identified very quickly who she was and that she had been murdered, who the likely suspect was. And then, I think, it all came crashing down, and he didn't want to spend the rest of his life in prison.
He might have been remorseful for what he did. But usually abusers kill themselves when they've run into a situation where they can't escape what they did, not because they feel bad about what they did.
KING: Ron, do you think Scott Peterson was ever a suicide candidate?
GRANTSKI: I don't. I don't think so. He has a knack -- I calm him a silver tongue devil. And the problem with him is he believes everything he says is the truth, even when we all know it's a lie. So no, I don't think he could.
KING: David, do you think Susan was capable of killing herself? SMITH: I don't really think that Susan was -- intended to commit suicide on the night she murdered Michael and Alex, nor afterwards. She tried to get away with that lie for nine days, Larry. I really think Susan was hoping she was going to get away with it, and not commit suicide.
KING: Stewart, did you like him?
BRAZELL: I would not say -- he wasn't exactly my cup of tea. But he was likable. You know, he used funny voices. Women were drawn to him. He was the life of the party. He was likable. I did not personally chose him as a friend.
KING: Did he have a lot of money?
BRAZELL: He did have a lot of money. His parents had a lot of money. He was legit for what we were looking for.
KING: Father's a lawyer, right?
BRAZELL: Father's an architect, I believe a real estate investor.
KING: An architect, successful businessman?
BRAZELL: Exactly. He was given ever opportunity to succeed.
KING: But you didn't dislike him?
BRAZELL: I didn't dislike him. I kind of saw him for what he was.
KING: Which was?
BRAZELL: Which was perfect for this show: loud, obnoxious, made for great TV.
KING: Shocked that he got married?
BRAZELL: No. Because he -- he has that in him, you know, just to be very spur of the moment. He thought he was in love. They were crazy in love for each other.
KING: You think he might have been picked on the show? Did you ever guess he was going to be chosen?
BRAZELL: I thought 100 percent he would get on the show.
KING: Did you think he would be winning on the show?
BRAZELL: I thought he would make it to the final, at least the top five. He's a good-looking guy.
KING: He didn't make it to the top five?
BRAZELL: He didn't win the show. KING: We haven't seen it yet?
BRAZELL: Well, it's been pulled. He was in the finals.
KING: He was? You can say that. He was a finalist.
BRAZELL: He was in the finals.
KING: Thank you all very much. We obviously have not heard the last of this.
Kate Gosselin and Kathy Lee Gifford, they're here tomorrow night. Here right now is Anderson Cooper and "AC 360." Anderson?