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Campbell Brown
Should U.S. Welcome Libyan Leader?; Swine Flu Epidemic?
Aired August 25, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. Are we on the brink of a swine flu epidemic?
DR. THOMAS FRIEDEN, DIRECTOR, CENTERS FOR DISEASE CONTROL AND PREVENTION: The next few weeks and months will be a very challenging time.
BROWN: A dramatic warning from the government: 90,000 people could die in the U.S. this winter.
Plus, the dictator next door -- will Gadhafi be allowed to pitch his tent in a New Jersey suburb while he visits the U.N.?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't think I would want him in the neighborhood.
BROWN: He rolled out the red carpet for a convicted terrorist who killed 189 Americans. Should he be welcomed here?
And how is that vacation working out, Mr. President? There's bad news on the deficit, another potshot from Dick Cheney, and now this.
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZONA: I think you may be seeing the beginning of a peaceful -- I emphasize peaceful -- revolt in America.
BROWN: Plus, tonight's newsmaker, the world champion runner who is being asked to prove that she is not a he.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's pretty cool to win a gold medal and bring it home.
BROWN: Will a gender test be enough to silence critics once and for all?
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody.
Those are our big questions tonight, but we're going to start, as we always do, with the "Mash-Up," our look at all the stories making an impact right now, the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all, so you don't have to.
And tonight's big news, deficits as far as the eye can see -- the White House announcing the big beast even bigger than they had feared. Check out the new projection. That's $9 trillion, people. That would be twelve zeros.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": A cloud of bad economic news and a forecast of more to come.
JACK CAFFERTY, CNN ANCHOR: Skyrocketing national debt. The latest estimates add $2 trillion to projections made as recently as February.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: What we know is that we're spending way, way more every single month than we're taking in.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's the bottom line on America's ballooning budget deficit.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It means you're going to ultimately be paying higher taxes.
CHARLES GIBSON, ABC NEWS: Huge number, virtually impossible to grasp.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you laid out nine trillion single dollar bills end to end, it would stretch more than 870 million miles. That's long enough to reach from the Earth to Saturn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Wow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And that enough to bring President Obama out of his vacation seclusion, officially emerging to announce he is renominating Ben Bernanke as chairman of the Federal Reserve, but there was deficit defensiveness going on, the president insisting he is not spending us into the ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The actions we have taken to stabilize our financial system, to repair our credit markets, restructure our auto industry, and pass a recovery package have all been steps of necessity, not choice. But, taken together, this bold, persistent experimentation has brought our economy back from the brink.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Maybe. But today's deficit news makes the president's top priority an even tougher sell, as he struggles to convince America a pricey health care overhaul is also a step of necessity, not one of choice. The president's health care plan still murky to many, thousands of citizens flocking to town halls around the country seeking answers, and, today, one of them, the president's own great uncle.
CNN's Dana Bash spotted 92-year-old Ralph Dunham this morning at a town meeting in Fairfax, Virginia. He was looking for information.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DANA BASH, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you feel like you have a good grasp of what's in the plans for overhauling health care?
RALPH DUNHAM, PRESIDENT OBAMA'S GREAT-UNCLE: No, I don't, because the thing is over a 1,000 pages long, and the House and the Senate are going straighten out the two bills. And nobody knows what's going to be in it, I don't think.
BASH: Do you feel confused by it?
DUNHAM: I don't really know very much about it. I don't know whether to be confused or not. I'm hoping we get some information just like everyone else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Now, Dunham tells Dana his great nephew, the president, needs to do a better job of reassuring the public about all this.
Meantime, the president's old rival John McCain holding a little town meeting of his own today, a feisty session, McCain denouncing the president's plan, while defending the president's honor at the same time. Check out the highlights.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCCAIN: I think you may be seeing the beginning of a peaceful -- and I emphasize peaceful -- revolt in America.
We don't shout at my town hall meetings.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No compromises, no compromises! Senator, nuke it now.
MCCAIN: I am glad I called on you, ma'am.
(LAUGHTER)
MCCAIN: Thank you very much.
(APPLAUSE)
MCCAIN: I am convinced the president has absolutely sincere in his beliefs, but he has...
(BOOING) MCCAIN: Wait a minute. Wait a minute,. He is sincere in his beliefs. We just happen to disagree. And he is the president of the United States, and let's be respectful.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I blame you, Senator Kennedy.
(LAUGHTER)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just promoted you.
(LAUGHTER)
(BOOING)
MCCAIN: If it had not been for these town hall meetings all over the country, I believe that health care reform and a government plan would have been railroaded through the Congress by now. Thank you and God bless you. Thank you.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: McCain insisting to the fired-up crowd President Obama respects the Constitution; he just has a different philosophy of government.
If John McCain stuck up for the president today, well, Dick Cheney did not -- the former vice president crowing about the newly released CIA report on prisoner abuse and sounding pretty vindicated.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUZANNE MALVEAUX, CNN ANCHOR: Dick Cheney says he told you so, claiming there is now proof that the harsh handling of terrorist suspects paid off in the fight against al Qaeda.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He says in a statement: "The people involved deserve our gratitude. They do not deserve to be the targets of political investigations or prosecutions."
GIBSON: The Obama administration's decision to investigate CIA personnel for tactics used on terrorism suspects -- and I quote -- "serves as a reminder why so many Americans have doubts about this administration's ability to be responsible for our nation's security."
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What the former vice president is saying there is that this is putting our country in danger.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Dick Cheney says at least that a lot of good information came out of this.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The problem is, he can't point to any specific lives saved or any specific terrorist acts that were avoided.
TONY BLANKLEY, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: It's times like this that I think we conservatives and liberals are like different species, because we view this so differently.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Yes, it does depend on who you ask, but Cheney sounding convinced, calling the CIA's practices -- quote -- "directly responsible for defeating all efforts by al Qaeda to launch further mass casualty acts against the United States."
In other news, in Los Angeles tonight, it's case closed for Chris Brown, judgment day, as the pop star is sentenced for beating up his ex-girlfriend, Rihanna.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Chris Brown getting the sentence we all expected, five years of probation, a 52-week domestic violence counseling program he's going to undergo, and also six months community labor, not community service, where we're talking about picking up trash, washing cars and the like, also have to pay a $2,500 fine.
There's a protective order. He cannot contact Rihanna for five years, cannot come within 100 yards of her. And, if they're at the same event, it's 10 yards.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That restraining order in place until 2014.
And in South Africa today, a dramatic homecoming for an athlete caught in an international scandal, a runner whose identity as a woman now the subject of fierce dispute.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hundreds crowded the arrival's hall at Johannesburg's airport, waiting to welcome their golden girl home. When Caster Semenya eventually did arrive, the crowd swarmed around her. Only her waving hand was visible.
Outside the airport, she and the rest of her teammates scuttled for safety inside a bus, as excited fans broke the police barriers.
What a homecoming, Caster Semenya arriving to this crowd going absolutely going crazy and the police seeming to lose control of the situation.
Eventually, in a different, safer area of the airport, the 18- year-old at the center of a gender controversy emerged before the South African public for the first time since her stunning win at the world championships. She seemed overwhelmed by the attention, pulling faces and looking shy and embarrassed as entertainers and politicians (INAUDIBLE) around her.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: And we're going to have a whole lot more on this fascinating story tonight, including new information about those gender tests that we have just learned.
And that does bring us to the "Punchline" tonight, courtesy of David Letterman and his very special guest perhaps known as that Prada-wearing devil.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN")
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": Editor of "Vogue," Anna Wintour, is on the program this morning.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
LETTERMAN: Now, if you know anything about this woman, you know that she's perhaps the most important, single most important figure in the world of fashion. And also she has a reputation for being aloof, bitchy, mean to her staff.
(LAUGHTER)
ANNA WINTOUR, EDITOR, "VOGUE": Well, I'm very decisive, and I try and give very clear direction to the people that I'm working with. And sometimes unfortunately they don't hear the answer that they would like to hear. And as my publisher says in the movie, I'm not always warm and cuddly.
LETTERMAN: Have you ever put anybody in a headlock?
(LAUGHTER)
WINTOUR: Maybe you.
(APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: David Letterman and Anna Wintour, everybody. And that is the "Mash-Up."
Tonight's big question, is the government really ready for a swine flu outbreak? You have heard the warnings now -- 90,000 Americans could be dead by the end of the season, that's what we're telling -- they're telling us. We're getting the facts to find out what you really need to know to protect your family.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's first big question, is America ready for swine flu? A presidential panel reports that 90,000 people in this country could die of the flu, as many as 300,000 may end up sick enough to end up in the intensive care. And the scary news doesn't end there. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MALVEAUX: There is a troubling new report from the Obama administration on the outlook for the coming flu season.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It sounds unreal, nearly half of the population infected with swine flu, but the government believes that could happen.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A presidential panel of advisers says it could kill up to 90,000 Americans, and it warns that many of them could be youngsters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: As for a vaccine, if trials that are under way now continue to go as well as they have, there will be small amounts of vaccine available in October, and not enough for everybody who wants it until at least Thanksgiving. So, we're talking about a long way off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So just how worried should we all be right now?
Here to give us the facts, Dr. Christina Johns. She's an emergency room specialist at Children's National Medical Center in Washington. And Dr. Jorge Rodriguez, a board-certified internist who is with us quite often.
So, Jorge, we're glad to see you here, as usual.
Try to put this if I can start with you into context for us, because 90,000 is about double the usual amount of flu deaths that we have here in the U.S. every year. Should we be hyperventilating right now, or not?
DR. JORGE RODRIGUEZ, INTERNIST: Well, I'm hyperventilating a little bit.
I think we definitely need to be concerned. So far in the Southern Hemisphere, this epidemic hasn't been quite up to what has been expected, but it is expected to completely explode, maybe in September or October.
We have approximately 36,000 deaths a year from regular flu. Add 90,000 on top of that. But what concerns me most is that the estimates are that almost two million people are going to need to be hospitalized because of this potential epidemic that we're going to have coming this fall. It's staggering.
BROWN: And as we have reported, the difference also here is the target. We're talking about mainly children and teenagers, right, that are most at risk?
RODRIGUEZ: Correct. In the usual flu epidemic that we have, it's people over 60 or 65 that are affected. In this epidemic, what has been happening is that it's usually young kids, young children between the ages of 4, 20, maybe between teenagers and pregnant women. So, it's a completely different demographic than we have been seeing before.
BROWN: Christina, I know despite the fact that it's kids we're talking about, you actually think that schools should stay open if we see some sort of outbreak. Tell us why.
DR. CHRISTINA JOHNS, CHILDREN'S NATIONAL MEDICAL CENTER: Well, you know, I think there's a lot to think about here.
Does it -- has it been shown historically that closing some schools, will that help curb the spread of a similar type of virus? Certainly. However, there's a lot of things to think about. For some kids this is the only place where they're going to get breakfast and lunch during the day and have a safe place for them to spend their day.
So, I think that there are some real pros and cons. I don't think we're there yet, I think it's all about being measured. I am concerned, certainly. Am I hyperventilating? No. We need to be confident in our own infection control measures, and understand that this is going to change and we all, including hospital institutions, we all need to be ready for it.
BROWN: Well, Jorge, let's talk about the vaccine. When will it be ready? Who is actually going to get it? We heard there probably a few people may in October.
RODRIGUEZ: Yes, well, when it's going to be ready depends on what day you hear about it. They first started saying September. Now they're saying October. There are probably going to be some vaccines available in September. Estimates range from 20 million to 40 million.
And then probably October or November we're going to get the bulk. Yet, last week, the U.S. actually gave more strains of the virus to some companies to start trying to produce more virus. And it's not any company's fault. This virus is just not cooperating in making vaccines. So, late September, early October, we're going to start getting probably 20 to 40 million vaccines available for vaccination.
BROWN: And, Christina, I mean, you know, you're familiar with the emergency room, which is where a lot of people may end up. If you contract H1N1, is there any real treatment for it?
JOHNS: You know, it has been shown that if you can get some of the antiviral medication early on, and I'm talking within the first 48 to 72 hours of the illness, that you may have the total number of days of your illness shortened.
But that's not necessarily universally true. So, I think it's important to remember that the -- all of the things that your grandmother told you, chicken soup and hydration and rest, all of that stuff is going to be important. And the majority of people who get the swine flu, or H1N1, will do just fine.
BROWN: All right. And we just put up information there on the screen as well about basic hygiene, which is always sort of what you do to protect yourself.
JOHNS: You bet.
BROWN: Appreciate your time, Christina, and Jorge Rodriguez, as always. Thank you, both. Appreciate it.
(CROSSTALK)
JOHNS: Thanks.
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker, a fast-thinking teacher who tackled a student loaded with explosives. The kid was planning to blow up his school.
Plus, vacation politics -- the president can't really get away from it all, but at least one Republican tonight defending him.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: We should all just shut up about this. Americans would think he was -- something was wrong with him if he didn't want to spend some quality time with those beautiful little girls and his gorgeous wife.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's big question, will Moammar Gadhafi camp out in a tent in New Jersey when he visits the U.S. next month? We're going to talk to two people who say the dictator is not welcome.
Plus, tonight's newsmaker, a world champion runner who came home today to a hero's welcome, but she's still being forced to prove she is not a he.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She is a teammate.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She won. And therefore we are going to support her.
And please stop for bothering her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi may soon be adding to the outrage created by the release of the Lockerbie bomber. Gadhafi gave the convicted terrorist a warm welcome home after the man was freed by Scottish authorities. Well, now Gadhafi is coming to the United States, where some say he isn't wanted.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When Moammar Gadhafi comes to New York next month for the U.N. General Assembly, will he be pitching this bedouin tent just miles from the families of the Lockerbie bombing victims on the lawn of a Libyan diplomat's home in New Jersey? A senior U.S. official calls it -- quote -- "awful."
But as host of the United Nations, the U.S. may be unable to stop it.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Now residents of Englewood, New Jersey, want to block Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi from pitching a bedouin tent there when he attends the U.N. General Assembly next month. The town's mayor says it would be offensive for Gadhafi even to get a visa for the visit, after the Pan Am 103 bomber got a hero's welcome in Libya last week.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And with me now is Rabbi Shmuley Boteach. He lives next door to the New Jersey home where some suggest that Gadhafi may end up staying. Also here in New Jersey, Congressman Steve Rothman, whose district includes the Libyan-owned property.
And we're going to talk about whether or not this could actually happen.
Rabbi, I'm going to start with you, because we did reach out to the Libyan Embassy today. They're not commenting at all on whether he will be coming, where he will be staying, anything along these lines. But you actually live next door to this property that they own. And you say there's a lot of activity under way there. Tell us what is going on.
RABBI SHMULEY BOTEACH, AUTHOR, "THE KOSHER SUTRA": Well, Campbell, why would we be silly to believe anything the Libyans say? They promised Gordon Brown, they promised the Scottish government that there wouldn't be a hero's welcome for the Lockerbie bomber.
This guy was given a giant party. You cannot believe a word that comes out of Gadhafi's mouth. That's what so said. He paid $2.7 billion in restitution to the victims of Lockerbie and yet now he celebrates the terror, the terrorist himself.
He's an international menace. He was called by Ronald Reagan the mad dog of the Middle East. I have lived next door to that property for 10 years. It was derelict. It was a hobble. They have invested millions upon millions dollars at a feverish pace to ready this property by September the 20th. Do the math.
And I have to tell you, the Libyans are not saying he won't come. He has nowhere else to go. The guy pitches a giant bedouin tent. Where is he going to put it? Here in this studio? And I would say to Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton, who has the power to deny him a visa to come to the United States at all, look, I'm a family man. I don't want an international terrorist financier being next door to the house where I'm raising my nine children.
Let him go to Chappaqua, if she wants him there, with all due respect. We don't want him in Englewood.
BROWN: So, you think, based on what you have seen, that he could end up there?
BOTEACH: They're spending millions and millions of dollars on a property that's never paid of tax to the local Englewood authority. And they have never even gotten a gardener to come in the past 10 years. I haven't been able to drive my kids' bicycles pass this giant six-acre property.
They're spending millions upon millions of dollars raising it to the highest possible standard. He's a dictator. The money's being spent on him.
BROWN: All right, Congressman, I know you have been looking into this because you have been hearing a lot from constituents as well who are pretty upset about it. What is really going on? You don't think he's going to be there?
REP. STEVEN ROTHMAN (D), NEW JERSEY: Well, actually, this is deja vu all over again. I was the mayor of Englewood 26 years ago, when Gadhafi tried to exactly the same thing.
But I got the Reagan State Department to issue restrictions prohibiting him from using the mansion at all. And he stayed in New York City, where his -- the Libyan ambassador to the U.N. has a residence.
BROWN: Right.
ROTHMAN: Well, I spoke to the White house this afternoon and to the State Department this afternoon, as I have since Saturday, when I heard about this rumor.
They say, number one, that they have strongly urged the Libyan government not to allow him to come, not to seek for him to come to Englewood, and that they should only keep him in Manhattan. We have the right to issue a visa with conditions that he can only stay in Manhattan.
And we will use that if the Libyans decide that they want to seek to have him come to Englewood. But the Libyans have not said so. It is my belief that they will not ask for Gadhafi to come to Englewood. But if they do, then the United States will use its authority under the Foreign Missions Act and the 26-year-old agreement I helped negotiate as the mayor of Englewood 26 years ago and we will keep him out of Englewood. He does not belong there.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: But it's not up to you, with all due respect. It is the State Department's decision to make, presumably. So you have that assurance from the State Department that under no circumstances would he be allowed to stay there?
ROTHMAN: The State Department and the White house both have strongly urged them to voluntarily agree to the condition on the visa.
If -- and I expect that the Libyans will voluntarily agree to those conditions. If they don't, it is my expectation and belief that the White house and State Department will put that condition on the visa. And I won't take no for an answer, and I know my constituents won't either.
BOTEACH: OK, Steven Rothman is my congressman.
God bless you, Steve.
But people in the highest positions of government in Europe have now been made international laughing stocks by taking Gadhafi's word. Queen Elizabeth, Prince Andrew, Gordon Brown, they have been made -- and it's become a fiasco because Gadhafi made them a promise that if they released this killer, this mass murderer, that he would go silently to Libya and just go home.
We saw that he broke every single word. He's an international fashionista. He loves mixing things up, Gadhafi. He loves making fools of people. He's making fools all of us. They are spending millions upon millions of dollars to a contractor who is going to be severely penalized financially if he's not ready by September the 20th.
Gadhafi's picked September the 23rd. And I find it highly unusual that the White House is asking, which -- the executive branch is asking the legislative branch to be its mouthpiece.
If the White House is so convinced that Gadhafi is not coming to Englewood, is not going to be my next-door neighbor -- I don't want to live next door to a terrorist -- then they should issue a statement saying that they will ensure, they will guarantee that this will not happen.
I love my congressman, but this is not a legislative decision. It's an executive decision that will be made by the State Department. Why is Gadhafi, who just heralded and championed and lionized a mass murderer coming to the United States at all? This is a country at war with terrorists in Afghanistan and Iraq.
BROWN: All right. I'm going to give you the last word, congressman.
ROTHMAN: I have nothing but enormous respect and affection for Rabbi Boteach. But we accomplished exactly this thing and kept Gadhafi out of this particular House 26 years ago. Right after they bought, we kept him out of it and will do it again.
BROWN: All right. We've got to end it there, gentlemen. Many thanks, congressman. Rabbi, good to see you. When we come back, is the president losing the confidence of the American public? And will that derail his efforts to fix health care? We're going to tackle that with members of the best political team on TV.
And then the "New York Times" restaurant critic tells me about the best meal he has ever had.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You know, $450 a person sushi extravaganza and it was dining as the most intimate experience imaginable.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: President Obama's summer getaway, not exactly all fun and games. Today he was off the golf course and in front of the cameras facing tough economic news defending his administration's policies and vowing to persevere.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But no matter how difficult change is, we will pursue it relentlessly because it is absolutely necessary to lift this country up and create an economy that leads to good jobs, for our growth, and a future our children can count on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And joining me right now, Mary Matalin, Paul Begala and Roland Martin.
And, Paul, let me start with you here. End of August, president on vacation. I mean, this is the time for the White House to get the bad news out there. Today, they announced we are facing a $9 trillion deficit, $9 trillion. How does the president go out and make the case for an expensive health care overhaul when we're facing deficits like that?
PAUL BEGALA, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: Right. I think he's got to say that the only way over time to get handle on these deficits is to get a handle on health care costs. Health care costs are one of the principal drivers of this deficit.
BROWN: We're hearing, Roland, this growing chorus of slow down. Joe Lieberman says, you know, listen we're in this huge financial crisis, fix that first before you deal with health care. Is he right?
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I've never heard members of Congress ever say let's speed up. They always say let's slow down. It's always a question of let's put something off.
And so, I think Paul is right, but the problem, though, is you have to explain what that means. Look, every time that the White House says Roland, we're going to lower the deficit over time by increasing the deficit. I'm going, OK, I don't get that, I'm sorry. And so they have to explain what does that mean?
How does fixing health care now affect the deficit? Just putting it out there in the sort of this, you know, professional speak doesn't work.
BROWN: Mary, you have John McCain out at a town hall meeting today accusing Democrats of trying to railroad health care reform through, do it too quickly. But what is the incentive here for Democrats to slow down when it's more than clear that Republicans don't want to work with them on this?
MARY MATALIN, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: That's Democrats -- Republicans don't want to work with a government takeover of health care. And with respect to my friend, Roland, Americans do understand that there's never been a government program in history that has reduced costs.
When Medicare was introduced in '66, it costs $3 billion. It was estimated to be $9 billion by the 1990s. Guess what it was? $107 billion. So people understand because they have lots of evidence to this fact that government programs always cost more and are less efficient.
MARTIN: Look, the bottom line is here, when you talk about costs, you can say all that people see these costs piling. I do recall a prescription drug deal at the Bush administration said it was going to cost one thing, but, in fact, they held back the real number and they were billed when it came out after.
The bottom line is here, though, the president has to be clear to explain to the American people how this is going to make it better when it comes to our deficit. I don't think they've done that right now and simply not following it.
BROWN: And, Paul, just bottom line this for me a little bit. I mean, I think Americans in many ways right now are confused about what the president actually wants here and what he wants to do. And they're not yet convinced that this has to happen now. I mean, you're seeing this growing sort of trust gap in terms of how they're viewing him. I mean, how does he deal with that?
BEGALA: They still like and trust this president an awful lot. I think your point and Roland's point is right, and Mary's too. This president has to walk us through it.
He does tend to sometimes be a little professorial. He sometimes a little -- flying a little bit too high. But I suspect and, of course I've been talking to some of his folks, when he comes back from this vacation, he is going to come to the country and campaign for this health care bill the same way he campaigned for the White House.
And I think what he needs to do is say this, if you like what you have, you can keep it if we reform the system because if we don't, you will lose what you have. Right now, health care costs are about $15,000 a year for an average family of four. They used to be $7,000 when the Republicans took over from Clinton. Now they're $15,000.
If we do nothing, they'll go from $15,000 to $36,000. So you'll lose everything you have and insurance companies will still have the right to dump you for the crime of getting sick or being a woman or getting older.
MATALIN: The objection is not to -- it's not -- the Republicans are not proposing status quo. The Republicans have been suggesting and the Democrats have been stopping for years real reform. What they did get through and I need to correct my friend, Roland, the prescription drug program actually in its implementation was 40 percent lower than the projected cost. Why? Because we had competition in there.
This president, these Democrats that are pushing this through on the hill don't want private sector competition. They want to have a wholly-owned government-run, dare I use the S-word socialistic system, and they're not -- he's fighting his own Democrats. He's not fighting Republicans now. It's his own Democrats that are thwarting reform.
BROWN: All right. Mary, before we go, though...
MATALIN: His kind of reform.
BROWN: ... I want to ask you about this vacation more generally because he's been getting some criticism about, you know, being on the golf course when the sky is falling.
MARTIN: Which is a great thing, I'm sorry, go right ahead. I'm sorry.
BROWN: Anyway, I mean, President Bush got the same criticism whenever he went to Waco, Texas. You advise -- I mean, what do you tell a president to do in this situation?
MATALIN: He's doing fine. We should all just shut up about this. You know, Americans would think he was -- something was wrong with him if he didn't want to spend some quality time with those beautiful little girls and his gorgeous wife. And, you know, all of us who have worked in the White House, Paul will tell you, you're up at 4:00 in the morning. You have constant connectivity, the jerks, the job never stops, the work never stops. So get off it, let the guy hang out with his white wine sipping elite friends up there.
(LAUGHTER)
MARTIN: Have you seen his golf swing? He needs to practice. He needs to practice, Campbell.
BROWN: All right. OK. Roland, Mary Matalin, Paul Begala, thanks guys. Appreciate it.
BEGALA: Thanks. BROWN: A hero's welcome home today for a teenage athlete at the center of an international firestorm. The heart of the controversy questions of whether she is really a woman. Some surprising new test results to tell you about tonight.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: New controversy tonight over a record-setting runner and questions about whether she is, in fact, a woman. New test results are only adding to the mystery. Samples provided before last week's big win in the 800-meter race show she had three times the normal amount of testosterone in her system.
Here's reporter Mar Drawn (ph) of Britain's ITM (ph).
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): She arrived home a heroine, the new 800 meters world champion and the new darling of South African sports. But Caster Semenya's homecoming was no ordinary celebration. Thousands crammed in to Johannesburg Airport to express their outrage over the way the 18-year-old has been treated.
Her remarkable victory at the Athletics World Championship sparked a global debate when suspicions arose about her gender. Her muscular body and powerful running style crushed the rest of the finalists and prompted officials to order gender verification tests.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We want to say it's unacceptable to question a woman's sex.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just in her teen track suit, the 18-year-old was then paraded on the stage but looked uncomfortable as protesters rallied support.
JULIUS MALEMA, SOUTH AFRICAN POLITICIAN: She is a female. She won and therefore we are going to support her. And please stop bothering her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The message from South Africa is clear, it's not just questions have been raised over Semenya's gender, but that they were made so public.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And with me now from Los Angeles, Dr. Jennifer Berman who is a urologist who also specializes in sexual health. And from Washington, David Zirin, sports editor for "The Nation" joining us as well and also the author of "People's History of Sports in the United States.
And, Jennifer, let me start with you. You saw this massive crowd of support for her, the outrage in South Africa over the gender test. But at the same time, we're hearing these reports that tests showed Semenya had three times the amount of testosterone that would be expected in a normal woman. If that is, in fact, true, what does that tell you?
DR. JENNIFER BERMAN, UROLOGIST: Well, there are two things, really, is that we as American people are jaded by prior athletes abusing performance-enhancing drugs and abusing the system to achieve better. So we're armed and loaded and ready to fire, which is in part what's happening.
The other part what's happening, honestly, is that you're asking me to perform surgery without a scalpel. An isolated elevated testosterone level in and of itself without the gender testing, without the other hormone levels, without the external female genitalia exam and confirming that she has an internal female reproductive tract means many, many, many, many number of things.
You asked me to take off my stethoscope and tell you my gut, there's something -- there's something not right about it. Because no -- if she did have some medical condition barring a chromosomal abnormality, those women don't perform as superwomen. They have other medical problems, other manifestations of disease. So it's not fitting together.
BROWN: So -- so, just to be clear about this, and you can explain that certainly in a way, hopefully, I think most of us can try to understand is, would she have an advantage if she had that level of testosterone? Would that automatically give her an advantage over other female runners? It sounds to me like you're saying not necessarily.
BERMAN: No, no, no, I'm saying she definitely had the elevated testosterone levels, whether she was ingesting testosterone and, you know, consuming illegal drugs, in other words, or whether there's some medical condition to account for it, we don't know yet. And in and of itself alone, it really isn't enough information. But if she's consuming testosterone, I don't believe there is a medical condition that could just turn her into a super female without -- unless she's a hermaphrodite and has male external genitalia. And if she has that, I think we know it by now.
BROWN: OK.
BERMAN: So there's something -- the pieces aren't together.
BROWN: OK. So just to follow up again, is this really an issue then of whether she's male or female? Or it really sounds like it's more of an issue of whether she's using performance-enhancing drugs or not.
BERMAN: I think it's both. And I think we're premature micro- dissecting her and it is wrong to put this woman in the public eye, which is how this whole thing started. We need to go behind closed doors in the privacy of the medical community, solve this, then come out with it and not, you know, debate, or I can't, you know, hypothesize. This isn't a research rat.
BROWN: Right.
BERMAN: This is a human being.
BROWN: And sadly, it's not going to happen behind closed doors. You saw what happened today. And, Dave, I know you say this whole idea of gender testing is outrageous. Explain what you mean.
DAVE ZIRIN, SPORTS EDITOR, "THE NATION": Outrageous and idiotic. And first of all, if I could just say no bias no bull, the term hermaphrodite, which the good doctor used is considered to be profoundly outdated. People say intersex. I wanted to put that out there.
The second thing to say is that this is what always happens historically when a woman excels in sports. I mean, go back to Babe Didrikson or Martina Navratilova, there are always referred to by their detractors as being somehow mannish or off, particularly if they don't fit some sort of gender ideal. It's the minefield that women athletes always have to cross with sexism on one side and homophobia on the other.
And think about it, when Michael Phelps won eight gold medals, no one asked if he was part fish. And yet when she does this amazing job in the 800 meters, the conclusion has to be, well, she somehow is not a woman. And it speaks far more of how track and field views gender, which is in this binary way of you're either male or your female than anything that has to do with Caster Semenya.
BROWN: And, Jennifer, let me let you respond to that quickly.
BERMAN: You know, everything that he says is true, except for the fact that she happens to be eight feet tall, talks with a coarse male voice, you know, has masculine features.
ZIRIN: Eight feet tall?
BERMAN: And -- I mean, she's much taller than I am and to say that, you know, it's just because there's gender bias, there's other, you know. It's not that we're just being unfair, there are other issues at hand that are normal questions that a non-biased external viewer might raise.
BROWN: All right.
BERMAN: It's not inhumane or abnormal to have those questions.
ZIRIN: It's inhumane, though, to take an 18-year-old and subject her to the kind of scrutiny that she's been subjected to.
BROWN: True.
ZIRIN: I mean, she speaks about being traumatized. You read the quotes from her parents and they're absolutely heartbreaking about what they see being done to her daughter.
BROWN: All right. I think we all agree on that point. Many thanks to Jennifer Berman and to Dave Zirin joining us, as well. Appreciate it, guys. ZIRIN: Thank you.
BERMAN: Thanks.
BROWN: So when we come back, let's say that you are a compulsive eater, obsessed with food to an unhealthy degree. What's the last job you'd sign up for? Food critic, right?
Well, my next guest did just that and lives to tell this extraordinary tale when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: How does a compulsive eater become the most powerful writer in the restaurant business? That's the incredible story of our "Newsmaker" tonight, outgoing "New York Times" food critic Frank Bruni. He's the author of a fascinating new memoir "Born Round: The Secret History of a Full-time Eater." It is rocketing up the Amazon charts and full disclosure here, he is also a very good friend. I spoke with him earlier.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, this isn't something that we normally hear guys talk about. You weren't just a yo-yo dieter, you were a compulsive eater. Even bulimic at one point.
FRANK BRUNI, AUTHOR, "BORN ROUND": Oh, yes, yes. I mean, I could -- no one could binge like I could binge. Some of those nights on the campaign trail, when I would leave the bar a little bit earlier than everybody else, I'd be up in front of my minibar, you know, just crosslegged, going through the whole thing.
BROWN: And, full disclosure to our viewers, you and I go way back.
BRUNI: We go way back. When you met me, I looked a little different, didn't I?
BROWN: I was going to say, when we were covering the 2000 presidential campaign together, and you were a lot bigger.
BRUNI: I was a lot bigger. Yes, I got up to about 75 pounds heavier than this. And I was wearing size 42 pants. I was a big boy.
BROWN: So, you changed your eating habits, of all places, when you were based in Rome - when you were the bureau chief for "The New York Times" in Rome. And most people think Rome is a fabulous place to eat. How did you do it?
BRUNI: Well, it is a fabulous place to eat, but I was lucky to be there when I was there. I had lost a bunch of weight. I needed to maintain the weight loss, and Italians exult quality, not quantity. They don't have a Big Gulp at the 7-Eleven. There is no 7-Eleven. They don't have all-you-can-eat buffets. You know, they don't do that American thing of associating a great meal with an abundant meal. A great meal has great food in it eaten in moderate portions.
BROWN: So you really did adapt to the style when you were living there?
BRUNI: It was an example. It was an inspiration. It showed me what to do.
BROWN: So, you're there and you're finally learning to control your eating habits. And then you get this phone call, and you get offered the all-time greatest food job ever. You're going to be the restaurant critic for "The New York Times." What went through your brain?
BRUNI: Well, the first thing that went through my brain was the word "irony," you know, I mean like --
(LAUGHTER)
BRUNI: You don't come across many like that. And then I had to do some hard thinking about whether after decades of having such a turbulent relationship with eating and food, I had finally figured it out. And I thought I had. And I took a gamble.
BROWN: So, you know, explain this to us. Because as a recovering compulsive eater, you have this job now where you have to - I've been out to dinner with you a time or two.
BRUNI: Yes.
BROWN: So I know you have to order essentially everything on the menu. How do you manage it? How do you balance it?
BRUNI: I have to order everything on the menu, but I only have to taste it, you know? And so I'm not falling back into that old pattern of just kind of shoving as much food as possible down my throat. But also, I used to always make the mistake of going on big binges because I was going to diet tomorrow. I was going to fast next week.
Now, I know I have to eat a certain amount everyday, and so I never let it get out of control because I can't lie to myself about the fad diet on the far side of it. There are no fad diets in my life anymore.
BROWN: So many people find that job, the food critic, a fascinating one. I mean, you've described it as part -- how did you -- "part journalist, part CIA operative." And you did go into restaurants at times in disguise. Tell us what it was like, trying to maintain anonymity when they are trying to expose you. The restaurants -- they want to know when you are in there.
BRUNI: Well, you can't really control too much of them spotting you once you get in there, because they've made such great efforts to have pictures of you and that sort of thing. But you make up a million different fictitious phone numbers when you call so that there's no tracks that they can trace back. You use a different alias every night.
I mean, the hard part is you arrive at a host station some nights and you've forgotten what your fake name is, and you stand there dumbly and say, "Ahh, I'm the party at 9:30." And they kind of know then when something is up. Most people remember the name that they made the reservation in.
BROWN: What are the red flags, your pet peeves, when you go into a restaurant? What do you love and you know this is going to be a great meal, and what do you hate?
BRUNI: You know, it really starts at the door. I don't think I've ever eaten in a great restaurant where I've been ignored when I walked through the door. And I don't mean me, Frank Bruni. I mean, you know, everyone says in life first impressions are the most important. Our parents all taught us that.
It's the same thing in restaurants. If the greeting and the attentiveness at that host station, if those aren't what they should be, like, the rest of the night's not going to go that well, either.
BROWN: What are the most annoying to you restaurant affectations? What do you think restaurants need to stop doing?
BRUNI: I do not understand to this moment why servers use some of the stilted language they do. You know, why they say, you know, "are you done enjoying that?" You know, "Are you still working on that?" I mean, these words don't quite work. You know, "Pardon my reach." You know, just say excuse me, you know?
BROWN: Let's go back to the book for a minute because there is a lot in here that is incredibly honest, very intimate, embarrassing at times.
BRUNI: Oh, yes.
BROWN: I mean, you go into detail. Did you ever think, "I should be holding back a little bit?"
BRUNI: You know, I thought it for a nanosecond or two, but when you and I interview other people, when we do stories on subjects, we demand as much candor from them as we can get and we tell them to give as much detail because we know that makes the best story. I wanted to give readers the best story I could.
BROWN: And so you were willing to put it all out there.
BRUNI: You put all your secrets out there, you have none left to be afraid of.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Frank Bruni, and the book is called "Born Round."
When we come back, tonight's newsmaker, a teacher who tackled an armed student who was allegedly about to blow up his school. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's newsmaker, the heroic teacher who stopped a high school massacre in California. Teacher Kenneth Santana tackled a former student who set off two pipe bombs. Police say the teen had eight more plus a chain saw and a sword. Here's the man who saved the day.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KENNETH SANTANA, HEROIC TEACHER: He's running towards people instead of towards safety. So that kind of made me a little bit -- kind of worried about what this kid was doing, so I just kind of decided to -- I close the distance and put him in a bear hug and then I decided to kind of flip him and put him on the ground and that's when the thinking came in, I just thought to myself if I'm wrong, I'll apologize to his parents later, and if I'm right, then I'm going to held this kid down.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: No one was hurt during yesterday's chaos. That's it for us. Larry King right now.
