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American Morning
New Timeline in Michael Jackson's Death Points to Homicide; Government Predicts Half of Americans May Get Swine Flu in Upcoming Season; Obama Wants Bernanke to Continue as Fed Chairman; Documents Detail Controversial CIA Interrogation Techniques of Terrorist Prisoners
Aired August 25, 2009 - 07:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
KIRAN CHETRY, CNN ANCHOR: Meanwhile, it is 7:00 on the nose here in New York. Welcome to AMERICAN MORNING on this Tuesday, August 25. I'm Kiran Chetry.
JOHN ROBERTS, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. I'm John Roberts. Thanks for being with us. Here are the big stories that we'll be breaking down for you in the next 15 minutes on the Most News in the Morning.
A chilling timeline laid out: drug after drug after drug, with Michael Jackson pleading and demanding for more. Court documents obtained by CNN show the coroner in Los Angeles found a fatal dose of the powerful knockout drug Propofol killed Jackson, and his own doctor gave it to him. There are reports that the singer's death may be ruled a homicide. That story from Los Angeles just ahead.
CHETRY: Swine flu could cause up to 90,000 deaths in the U.S. alone this fall. That is what the government is saying out of a new report, and they're painting a worst case scenario. The victims, they say, could be mainly children and young adults.
The report also finds H1N1 virus could infect up to half of the country during this year's flu season. We're going to talk more about these predictions and assessments and also how to protect your family just ahead.
ROBERTS: He's the man trying to navigate us out of a recession that started almost two years ago and printed up nearly $1 trillion to do it. And today, President Obama is expected to nominate Ben Bernanke to another term as chief of the Fed. What it could mean for your bottom line. The CNN money team is all over this one this morning.
CHETRY: Plus, the attorney general investigating the CIA checking whether Bush-era interrogation tactics broke the law. This comes after a classified report from 2004 was made public, saying at least one terror detainee was threatened with a gun and power drill. We're live in Washington with the fallout.
ROBERTS: But first, after weeks of speculation, we begin the hour with the cause of death of Michael Jackson.
Court documents show the singer overdosed on the powerful drug Propofol, a drug, doctors say, should never be administered outside of an operating room.
And the documents say Jackson's own physician, Dr. Conrad Murray gave him a deadly dose. Murray's attorney says the police are twisting his client's account of things.
Our Thelma Gutierrez has the documents and the hour by hour breakdown leading up to Jackson's death.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
THELMA GUTIERREZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: John, Kiran, the affidavit paints an unsettling picture of what investigators believe took place in the hours leading up to Michael Jackson's death.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ: This 32-page document released in Texas revealed there were lethal levels of powerful drug Propofol in Michael Jackson's blood at the time of his death according to preliminary findings of the Los Angeles coroner.
The police affidavit says Dr. Conrad Murray, Jackson's personal physician, told detectives he had been treating the star for insomnia for six weeks giving him an IV drip with 50 milligrams of Propofol diluted with Lidocaine every night.
Murray worried Jackson was becoming addicted to Propofol. In an attempt to wean him off, Murray put together other combinations of drugs and succeeded to putting Jackson to sleep two nights prior to his death.
And June 25th when those drugs failed, Murray told detectives what he did hour-by-hour. He said around 1:30 in the morning, he gave Jackson 10 milligrams of valium. At 2:00 a.m., he injected him with Ativan, an anti-anxiety drug, an hour the sedative Versed, at 5:00 a.m., more Ativan, at 7:30, more Versed.
Murray says he monitored Jackson's vital signs the entire time. According to documents, at 10:40 a.m., after repeated requests and demands from Jackson at 10:40, Murray administered 25 milligrams of Propofol, and Jackson finally was asleep.
After ten minutes, Murray says he went to the bathroom and was gone for two minutes. We he returned he said Jackson was no longer breathing. Murray said he administered CPR until paramedics arrived, but those efforts proved futile.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTIERREZ: Dr. Conrad Murray's attorneys released a statement saying much of what is in the search warrant affidavit is factual.
However, unfortunately, much is police theory, most egregiously, the timeline reported by law enforcement, was not obtained through interviews with Dr. Murray, as was implied by the affidavit -- John, Kiran. ROBERTS: Thelma Gutierrez for us this morning. Thelma, thanks so much.
And coming up, more on Jackson's death and what this means for the possibility of criminal charges. At 7:10, we're talking to former homicide prosecutor and criminal defense attorney Paul Callan, that's ahead on the most news in the morning.
CHETRY: And more now on our other developing story, the swine flu's potentially deadly fall comeback.
Experts are now predicting an alarming number of Americans could get sick. New figures coming to us from the president's advisory panel call it a plausible scenario that half of all Americans could catch the h1n1 virus in the next few months.
But an even more disturbing number, 90,000 Americans could potentially die. That's more than double the number of deaths in an average flu season.
CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is in Atlanta with details breaking this down for us. Just seeing these numbers is pretty alarming. So just so we're clear, is this the worst-case scenario they're painting?
ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Kiran. I'm so glad you pointed that out. It is indeed the worst-case scenario.
The same report from the President's Council on Science and Advisories says it might be 30,000 deaths from swine flu this upcoming flu season.
So let's take a look and let's put that in perspective from what happens every year in flu. Again, this report says there may be as many as 90 deaths just from swine flu alone. Every year, there are 36,000 deaths from regular old season flu that we have every year.
And the report also says between 30 percent and 50 percent of Americans will become ill. And also, it's become very clear with this virus that young people are more likely to die from swine flu than they are from seasonal flu. That includes children, young adults, and pregnant women.
But let me make it clear, this report also says it may be more like 30,000 deaths.
I know I'm throwing a lot of numbers out there. What it boils down to is they don't know. These are estimates. Everyone is trying to look into the crystal ball but no one has a crystal ball that's completely accurate.
But I think it is fair to say that there will likely be more deaths from flu this year than in previous flu season - Kiran.
CHETRY: And when they say that, are they combing both regular seasonal flu and swine flu, or are you saying regular seasonal flu could also be more deadly this year?
COHEN: No, that's an excellent question. The numbers I just gave are from h1n1, are from swine flu alone. So in addition to all of the deaths from seasonal flu, there's projected to be an extra 30,000 to 90,000 deaths just from swine flu.
Seasonal flu will likely be just what it is in any year. There's no reason to think that one will be any different.
CHETRY: So a couple of questions when it comes to preventing death, hopefully, and even preventing getting it -- the vaccination situation. Where do we stand on that?
COHEN: Right. The vaccination situation is that in mid-October they hope to have around 50,000 doses -- I'm sorry, 50 million doses of vaccine ready for people. Then they expect to have by the end of the year an extra 200 million doses on top of that.
So they're hoping to be able to get oh all of the people who need it, which includes -- I won't go through the whole list, but pregnant women and young people.
CHETRY: So when you go to the doctor to get your flu shot like many people do, or you go to a clinic where they offer it through work, are they also going to be offering the swine flu? Is this something that you can get done at the same time?
COHEN: Many places will be, many places where you can just get your regular seasonal flu shot, you'll be able to get your swine flu shot as well. And actually it's two shots. You have to get one shot, wait three weeks, and then get another shot.
CHETRY: All right, and what other steps can people take as we get ready to approach this and we look at those numbers. They are alarming. What can we do to reduce our risk?
COHEN: All the basics. Wash your hands frequently, soap and water or a hand purifier. Either one would do. Also, don't go out if you're sick. Don't send your kids to school. Don't go to work.
And also, cough or sneeze into your sleeve and not into your hand, which is what a lot of people do, and that's a problem, because then you can get someone else sick. So those are the big biggies to think about as flu season approaches.
CHETRY: All right, Elizabeth Cohen giving us some very, very useful information this morning. Thanks so much.
COHEN: Thanks.
CHETRY: And a CNN health alert now. There could be a dangerous side effect to the popular weight-loss drug Alli. The FDA is now investigating reports of liver damage in some patients taking this medication.
A report says that 27 patients were hospitalized and six suffered liver failure. But experts say they have not established any direct relationship between the weight loss treatments and liver injury and that patients should continue using the drugs as directed.
The drugmaker did not immediately return calls for comment.
ROBERTS: Other stories new this morning -- the South African athlete at the center of the gender controversy is back home in South Africa. Hundreds turned out to see Caster Semenya and her teammates land at Johannesburg.
The 18-year-old runner won the gold at the 800 meters at the world championships in Berlin last week, but officials said they were testing her gender after many people were questioning the athlete's deep voice and muscular build.
CHETRY: NASA says the weather forced them to scrub this morning's scheduled launch of space shuttle "Discovery." They're going to try again tomorrow, 1:10 a.m. eastern, another middle of the night mission there.
Part of this mission is to take a treadmill to the International Space Station. It was named after Comedy Central's Steven Colbert. Colbert and his viewers won an online poll to have the newest compartment of the international space station named after him.
At first NASA said no, but then they offered to name the treadmill after him as a compromise.
ROBERTS: Former president candidate and New York mayor Rudy Giuliani may want to be a governor. "The New York Times" is reporting the Republican will decide whether to run for governor of New York in 2010 in the next month or two.
The state capital has been plagued by gridlock and current Democratic governor David Paterson who replaced delegate Spitzer has a dismal approval rating.
Anyone who flies a lot likes to bring the luggage onboard. Who likes to check baggage? If you don't really need to check baggage, you don't want to check it. You don't want to put it in the belly of the plane, you want to put it in the overhead. But how big is too big? Some bags are small, some bags are huge.
CHETRY: When you see the people pushing and shoving and trying to close it and slam it down, that's too big.
ROBERTS: Yes, some people trying to use a jack to get it in there.
Well, the government may be making a move to regulate the size of your carry-on coverage. We tell you what they're planning coming up.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: New this morning, starting in September, American airlines is going to charge $50 each way to Europe this fall for a second piece of checked baggage on European flights. The airline joins other major carriers who already have similar fees.
CHETRY: There you go. Maybe that will lead to some more leg room on some of those flights. There's a new bill in Congress that will set federal standards for how big your carryon bag can be.
Right now each airline sets the own size rules, and not surprisingly, flight attendants are supporting that bill.
ROBERTS: Right.
And cash for clunkers is a huge hit and ended last night. Now a new program, cash for washers. The federal rebate program is about to begin that will give customers anywhere from $20 to $200 back for buying new buy energy efficient home appliances, washing machines, dishwashers, and refrigerators, all part of the program.
But unlike cash for clunkers, you don't actually need to haul in your old model, although that would make it a whole lot more fun.
CHETRY: New court documents this morning are giving us a minute- by-minute breakdown leading up to Michael Jackson's death. Dose after dose, drug after drug, the paper showing the last deadly injection came from Jackson's own physician, Dr. Conrad Murray.
Murray's lawyer says police are twisting what his client said and there are reports that Jackson's death could be ruled a homicide.
Joining me now is Paul Callan. He's a former prosecutor and also a current defense attorney, and he is going to help us understand both side of the case. Thanks for being with us.
PAUL CALLAN, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: It's nice to be here.
CHETRY: So you had a chance to look at that 32-page affidavit. What's interesting about it is that it does set out a timeline of what went on that night. Some of it, according to the affidavit and Conrad Murray's lawyers and what he told them. but others, they say, is police theory. So how is that working?
CALLAN: That's a very difficult thing to determine, police theory. Obviously if Murray said he gave valium or Ativan or a drug at a certain time, we could timeline it in. But I don't know how the police could determine when the drug is administered otherwise.
When the autopsy was done, the drug is just in the bloodstream. We don't know when it was actually put there. So I'm a little skeptical about the timeline as specified in the affidavit.
CHETRY: So why do they say when it's the homicide investigation and the possibility of manslaughter here? Explain how you go about proving that and how you defend it.
CALLAN: There are two terms where looking at here. One is "homicide," and when people hear that they think it's a murder case. CHETRY: Right.
CALLAN: That's not really what a homicide means. It just means death at the hands of another. It can even be a justifiable situation, as in a self-defense situation. So it doesn't always mean a crime has been committed.
But here they're throwing in the term "manslaughter," so I think they're clearly indicating that they believe Murray acted recklessly with gross medical negligence in causing the death, and that is a form of homicide and manslaughter.
CHETRY: And there's a big range when it comes to manslaughter itself, right? It could be involuntary, accidental, or intentional. So how does that range work?
CALLAN: Absolutely. When we hear of first degree murder, that's where you intentionally kill somebody. You point a gun at them, you want to kill them, and you fire the gun.
But here we're looking at manslaughter, or reckless manslaughter. And that's basically that what you did was so grossly negligent and reckless that you should have anticipated that somebody might have died. An analogy might be if you dropped a brick off the building. You weren't aiming at a person buy you hit a person, that would be manslaughter.
Now, in a medical context here it's that the doctor was so grossly negligent and the drugs he prescribed he caused Jackson's death. That's the form of manslaughter.
CHETRY: Let's hear a little bit about what Dr. Murray said. This is from his attorney. He said much of what was in the search warrant is factual. They are saying the timeline when they spoke to him of what they prescribed and when.
He talks about trying to wean him off of Propofol, but he was afraid he would become addicted in the six-week period that he was treating him for insomnia. And so instead he started adding in these other drugs. He talks about Ativan, he talks about valium. Some of these are very powerful sedatives over the course of the night.
But then at the same time they say, however, much is police theory. So they're saying the part where he claims he left the room to make a series of phone calls. They say, wait a minute, he never said he did that. He didn't do that.
CALLAN: There is also an indication that he went to the bathroom at some point after the Propofol was administered to Michael Jackson.
And I think when I look at this entire picture, it looks like a doctor who's sort of desperately trying to change the meds on Michael Jackson.
And why is Michael Jackson receiving these medications in the first place? Why is he receiving Versed, Ativan, valium, Propofol? These are all very, very serious drugs when used in combination. He's getting them at home to go to sleep at night.
So I don't think you have to look at the timeline. You just say, why are these being administered in a home setting without proper backup? And I think Dr. Murray has a problem.
CHETRY: What's the defense, though? In part of the documents, he says at the insistence of his client, right? It was clearly -- he was not able to fall asleep is what it seems like because he keeps talking about administering yet another drug or a few milligrams this or that over a half-hour period as it continues on through the night.
Is a defense he asked for it? He demanded this?
CALLAN: No, that's not a defense at all. When you think about this case, Michael Jackson is saying, hey, I can't get to sleep. So he brings in a bazooka in the form of the drug regimen given by this doctor to treat what a condition that grandma used to give you warm milk for.
I thought it was kind of interesting, Michael Jackson referred to Propofol as his milk. It has to do with the milky appearance of Propofol. I'll bet he's referring to the fact that grandmothers used to give warm milk to their kids to go to sleep.
And in this situation you have a doctor who's administering this powerful anesthetic Propofol that we use mostly in operating room, occasionally in doctor's office, but clearly with proper supervision, without the right supervision.
So it's clearly a case -- I think clearly of medical negligence. Whether it rises to the criminal level remains to be seen.
CHETRY: And we're still awaiting the release of the full report from the coroner as well. So a lot of questions still unanswered.
Paul Callan, always great to see you. Thank you so much.
CALLAN: Nice to see you, Kiran.
CHETRY: It's 181/2 minutes now after the hour.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ROBERTS: Coming up now 22 minutes after the hour.
Christine Romans, minding your business. And this morning at 9:00, the president will be coming out to announce he is re-nominating Ben Bernanke to the posted Fed chair.
CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: I thought there wasn't going to be any news on the president's vacation. There will be news on the president's vacation.
ROBERTS: There's always news on the president's vacation. I don't think bill Clinton went a week in Martha's Vineyard without something happening?
ROMANS: He still doesn't go a week without something happening. Sorry, Bill, Mr. President.
As the subprime mortgage crisis really started to pick up steam, remember, in 2007, Ben Bernanke was asked point blank many, many times, look, is this subprime problem going to be something we should be concerned about in the rest of economy. And he said, no.
This is what he assured us here at the Federal Reserve bank in Chicago in a speech in May, 2007. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do not expect significant spillovers from the subprime market to the rest of the economy or to the financial system.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ROBERTS: Could we put the truth-o-meter on that one?
ROMANS: That's the pants on fire, I think.
He was wrong, and a lot of people were wrong. And frankly, he succeed a Fed chairman, Greenspan, who was hailed as a maestro for everything that he did, an unrivalled period of prosperity for the American economy that people now know was prosperity on paper and that now blew up, and now the Fed chief is trying to fix it up.
This is what Senator Chris Dodd has to say. He runs it banking committee, basically. He says "Chairman Bernanke was too slow to act during the early stages of the foreclosure crisis, but he ultimately demonstrated effective leadership and his reappointment sends the right signal to the market."
So what you're going to see is this qualified support for this Fed chairman. He's been nominated -- will be nominated by this president for another go. There will be confirmation hearings again.
But essentially he was too slow to react or understand, really, the magnitude of the crisis in the beginning like a lot of people. But when he did react, it was aggressively, it was creatively, pumping $1.3 trillion of liquidity, basically printing money and just flooding the system to a lot of different means with money to prevent something really terrible from happening.
Now the big question for this guy -- if he is confirmed, and people think he will be -- he's got to pull that back. He's got to pull it back without tipping his back into -- into trouble, but also doing it quickly enough so that we don't spark inflation.
He's got a big job ahead. It sounds like the president doesn't want to switch horses midstream.
CHETRY: And as you said, it's very interesting because he's a student of, I mean, he studied the Great Depression and where they went wrong, reacting too slowly and pulling back too quickly. So he knows the tight wire rope. He knows the act. He just has to make it happen.
ROMANS: And I think that sound bite we just played for you, I think you'll hear many, many senators reading it back to him during confirmation hearings saying, hmm, you didn't get it quickly enough. How can you fix it on the way out?
ROBERTS: Christine Romans minding your business this morning. Christine, thanks you so much.
We're expecting the president's announcement by the way on Ben Bernanke from the Vineyard at 9:00 a.m. eastern. You can see it live right here on CNN and CNN.com/live.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. It is 27 minutes past the hour.
There's new fallout this morning over this shocking report from 2004 about CIA tactics behind closed doors, now declassified. In it, details of Bush-era interrogations, including an account where one detainee was told, "We're going to kill your children."
Attorney General Eric Holder is launching an investigation to see whether the spy agency broke the law. Our Elaine Quijano join us from the Washington bureau this morning.
And again, remind people why back in 2004, and we are just learning about it now some five years later.
ELAINE QUIJANO, CNN CORRESPONDENT: This is part of a lawsuit that was filed by the American Civil Liberties Union, Kiran. Attorney General Eric Holder, as you noted, has now asked a federal prosecutor to review whether interrogations the Bush administration broke the law.
And he says his decision was influenced by the newly released CIA inspector general report.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: Interrogators threatened to kill the children of accused 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. The 2004 CIA inspector general's report, though still partially redacted, said, quote, "According to the interrogators, the blank interrogators said to Khalid Sheik Mohammed that if anything else happens in the United States, we're going to kill your children.
The report reveals a unique not previously disclosed, that an interrogator, quote, "reportedly used a pressure point technique. With both his hands on the detainees neck, blank manipulated his fingers to restrict the carotid artery until the detainee started to pass out." And new information about a gun and power drill used to scare Abd Al-Rahim Al-Nashiri, suspected of plotting the deadly bombing on the USS Cole.
"The debriefer entered the cell where Al-Nashiri sat shackled and racked the handgun once or twice close to Al-Nashiri's head. And later, the briefer entered the detainee's cell and revved the drill while the detainee stood naked and hooded." The debrifer did not touch Al-Nashiri with the power drill.
The report's release comes after a lawsuit by the American Civil Liberties Union, which called the details outrageous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If threatening a prisoner with an electric drill isn't torture, I'm not sure it is.
QUIJANO: The report also suggests waterboarding got Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to talk saying he, quote, "provided only a few intelligence reports prior to the use of the waterboard."
Late Monday, the government released other declassified arguments former Vice President Dick Cheney requested, arguing they would show the interrogation program saved lives. The CIA analysis says information from the detainee interrogation helped thwart a number of Al Qaeda plots and the arrests disrupted attack plans in process.
What's not clear from the heavily redacted documents is whether that information was obtained through controversial techniques like waterboarding.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
QUIJANO: In a sign of the political pressure surrounding this issue, the ACLU said it is disappointed with the attorney general's decision not to launch a full investigation, calling a preliminary review without a commitment to prosecutions, quote, "simply anemic," Kiran?
CHETRY: All right, we have Elaine Quijano for more from the White with more on that today. Thank you so much.
And also, stay with us. 8:10, eastern we're going to be talking more about this with CNN national security contributor and former homeland security advisor to President Bush Fran Townsend, also, former CIA officer Peter Brooks. That's ahead here on the Most News in the Morning.
We're just crossing the half-hour right now. We'll look at the top stories this morning.
Experts are now predicting an alarming number of Americans could get sick from the swine flu. There are new figures from the president's advisory panel that say half of all Americans could catch the h1n1 virus and 90,000 Americans could die. Again, that's worst case scenario. ROBERTS: Cash for Clunkers -- the program is over. But after a Web site for dealers to submit so much paperwork with so much activity it crashed, the deadline for dealers to file for reimbursement has extended. Car dealers now have until noon today to file their Cash for Clunkers paperwork.
CHETRY: Also, a new report that a sweet tooth can actually lead to a heart attack. You know, the American Heart Association warning that if you consume more than 22 teaspoons of sugar each day, that's dangerous. New guidelines called for women to have no more than six teaspoonfuls a day. Men should have no more than nine. That's just one teaspoon more than a single can of soda.
ROBERTS: Well, the first family is on vacation. But there is no rest in Washington. The debate on health care still going strong. And if that isn't polarizing enough the Obama Justice Department is investigating Bush-era interrogation tactics.
Joining me now to discuss the latest political hot topic is "Time" columnist Joe Klein. Joe, a couple of real hot things to talk about. Let's start with the detainee abuse. Eric Holder now appointing a special prosecutor to look in to alleged unauthorized and inhumane practices against detainees, according to the CIA's inspector general's report.
Republicans are worried that this could be a witch hunt that goes up the chain of command. But other people believe it needs to have a wide net cast. David Cole, who wrote the book, the "Torture Memo" said in "The New York Times" today, "To investigate line interrogators without investigating those who committed the 'original sin' authorizing the CIA to use cruel, brutal and torturous tactics in the first place is the substitute scapegoating for true accountability."
What do you think, Joe? Does the investigation need to go up the ladder?
JOE KLEIN, "TIME" MAGAZINE: Yes, I think it needs to start at the top of the ladder rather than at the bottom of the ladder. The big problem we're starting at the bottom of the ladder is that we have a active clandestine service in the United States right now doing very important things. And we don't want those people to believe that they can be called on the carpet.
There's a real morale problem at the CIA. And those people need to be protected. The problem here is that people at the top of the Bush administration were violating international rules of law by using these torture techniques. And that's where the - any investigation has to focus. Not on the troops, but on the leaders.
ROBERTS: But what do you suggest? The White House really want this? You know, they're trying to push health care reform through? Is this going to overshadow their agenda?
KLEIN: No, I don't think that the White House wants this at all. But there are some things that are unavoidable when you've had an administration like the Bush administration that clearly overstepped the line. Yes, you know, I'm sure that this is the last thing that the president wants to have clouding an already difficult August.
ROBERTS: And Joe, at the same time the inspector general's report comes out, the two memos that former Vice President Dick Cheney was urging the CIA to release also came out, suggesting that they did glean some very good information from interrogations of these detainees. Though it did not point directly because the document was so heavily redacted as to whether or not they got them from enhanced interrogation.
KLEIN: Well, I think that there's a big debate about that. There's been a big debate between the FBI and CIA about what's the best way to elicit information is. I mean, it's long been a technique that if you want to - you need to get control of the person you're interrogating in some way. And in the Middle East, they might show the guy a picture of his wife without saying we're going to kill your wife. It seems to me that our techniques were a little bit more gross than - than were necessary.
ROBERTS: Let's switch gears to health care here. During the recess, Republicans have been vehemently opposing the democratic plans that are out there. Conservative commentator Fred Barnes thinks that the Republican Party is on a roll right now because of all of that.
He wrote, "Republicans are discovering just how effective an opposition party can be in Washington. The strategy is simply to aggressively and relentlessly oppose the liberal agenda of the president and the Democratic Congress. As a result, Barack Obama's agenda is in jeopardy, and the president is disconcerted, less popular, and on the defensive."
Are the republicans pursuing a sound strategy, Joe? Could it hurt them down the road? You recently wrote a column saying, suggesting that there's nihilism rampant in the republican party.
KLEIN: Oh, absolutely. Listen, you know, John, I've been doing this for 40 years now. And in 1993, I, as a columnist, I supported the Republican health care plan as opposed to the Clinton health care plan. I thought it was a better plan. This year, there is no Republican health care plan. And the things that the Republicans are isolating to oppose aren't in any of the Democratic plans.
This is nihilism. This is pure destructive political behavior and it's preventing us from having a really serious conversation about a major, major issue. Now, I think that this is just temporary. Again, it's August. I think that in the fall, you're going to get a health care bill that most - you know, that the Democrats will vote for. It probably won't be everything that the president wants.
But I - I find it hard to imagine that even - the Republicans would vote for a plan that would reform the insurance industry, prevent insurers from dropping you if you have a pre-existing condition or if you get sick, so on. And then in 2010, you know, President Obama will be able to go to the country and say, look, insurers can't drop you anymore because of the work we did. I think that to just judge as Fred Barnes is doing on the basis of this difficult moment in the midst of the sausage-making is way, way premature. ROBERTS: Joe Klein, it's always great to catch up with you. Thanks so much for coming in today.
KLEIN: OK. My pleasure.
ROBERTS: Much appreciated.
CHETRY: All right. Well, sometimes, people end up being the victims of these blogs. People besmirch them, say bad things about them. Maybe the reputation is at stake. Well, this one went to court. Model, blogger versus Google. Who won? Jason Carroll up next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(MUSIC PLAYING)
CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. Thirty-nine minutes past the hour right now. Well, you know, fashion models are used to being, I don't know -- sometimes - well, they're used to the harsh realities of modeling, right?
JASON CARROLL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, sure.
CHETRY: And sometimes the cattiness that takes place behind the scenes. But after anonymous blogger gave one model the title of "skank" - I never thought I'd be saying that on national television.
CARROLL: Now you have.
CHETRY: And the model sued, and what happened next actually turned the blogosphere world upside down. Jason Carroll is here with that. Is it the end of anonymity for bloggers?
CARROLL: Well, it definitely opens the question of how private, you know, you think you are as an anonymous blogger. I mean, this one young woman definitely learned a valuable lesson. For months, there was some speculation about who was the anonymous blogger that had started this whole thing. Now her name, no longer a secret. She used harsh language to describe a model. But she says that language she used and her identity should have been protected.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CARROLL (voice-over): It's the kind of photo spread no model would want, featured on a blog called skanks in New York City, former "Vogue" cover girl Liskula Cohen ended up on the blog telling CNN's Campbell Brown she was determined to find out who was behind putting her there.
LISKULA COHEN, SUED GOOGLE AND WON: I wanted it gone. And I didn't want it to be there for the rest of my life. And I knew the only way for it to be gone was to call my lawyer.
CARROLL: She's not the only one calling a lawyer. So is the woman behind the blog, Rosemary Ports, a 29-year-old fashion student and casual acquaintance of Cohen. Ports's attorney saying she's the real victim.
SALVATOR STRAZZULLO, PORTS'S ATTORNEY: I not only feel my client was wronged, but I feel now it sets a precedent that anyone with money and power can get the identity of anyone that decides to be an anonymous blogger.
CARROLL: Ports's name released after a judge sided with Cohen, who sued Google to reveal information about the anonymous blogger. The blog had appeared on Google's Web site. The court rejected Ports claim that blogs like hers serve as a modern day forum for conveying personal opinions and shouldn't be regarded as fact.
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: The court said, look, there was specific evidence that this one person may have libeled another person. In that circumstance, we're going to disclose that name.
CARROLL: Google says it complies with court orders saying we have a legal team whose job it is to scrutinize these requests and make sure they meet not only the letter but the spirit of the law. Ports still says Google should have kept her name private and plans on suing Google for $15 million. Cohen's attorney says he can't believe Ports' nerve.
STEVEN WAGNER, COHEN'S ATTORNEY: Her being a victim here? I have trouble understanding that, in its entirety.
CARROLL: Web watchers like "Wired" magazine's Nicholas Thompson say, this is a lesson for all anonymous bloggers.
NICHOLAS THOMPSON, "WIRED" MAGAZINE: Some of the effects will be good. People will recognize, wait a second, the law does apply to the blogosphere. Some of them may be bad. There will be people who won't publish things that maybe they should publish. It may be good for society.
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CARROLL: Well, Ports's attorney says his client should have had the chance to at least appeal the judge's decision before information about her identity was revealed. Cohen's attorney says much of this could have been avoided if Port had simply apologized for what she did. In fact, he said Cohen actually called Port after she learned about who she was and said, look, if I have ever done anything to warrant this, I'm sorry.
ROBERTS: She's the one who apologized.
CARROLL: Exactly.
ROBERTS: I think it was a little facetious of her.
CHETRY: Well, in the end there she said she wanted those pictures taken down. I mean, she wanted that whole thing taken down. Did she get that?
CARROLL: She did in fact get that. She got what she wanted but you know, she feels as though in some ways her reputation has been damaged.
CHETRY: All right. Well, very interesting story, Jason. Thanks so much. And we want to know what you think. Should bloggers' identities be private? And is freedom of speech protected on-line? We want you to sound off on our blog for us at cnn.com/amfix. We got a couple of good comments. I want to read some in just a moment. It's 43 minutes past the hour.
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ROBERTS: Good morning, Kansas City, where it's sunny and very pleasant right now. Just 69 degrees later on today, mostly sunny with a high of 88. Rob Marciano tracking the extreme weather across the country. Got storms delaying the shuttle. And got some tropical weather out there. Rob's covering it all for us. Good morning, Rob.
ROB MARCIANO, AMS METEOROLOGIST: Good morning, guys. Fairly tranquil weather across much of the country, except down south and the tropics, not only offshore but on shore. Florida radar once again looking like the Florida radar in August, which means a little bit of that especially around the peninsula itself. They scrubbed the shuttle launch, as you know, last night due to weather. There's a bunch of weather criteria they have to meet. Most of which really are clouds and thunderstorms in the vicinity. And that's what got them last night. And we may very well see something similar to that tonight. So they are going to reschedule for 1:10 a.m. tonight. So shortly after midnight.
And the forecast is for more of these scattered showers and thunderstorms around the launch pad. So the NASA space flight forecaster is giving it about a 30 percent probability of no go for launch. And yesterday at this time, they gave it 20 percent probability of that. So we'll see what happens as we go through that.
All right. Speaking of tropics, we do have a little tropical wave that is getting bigger and looking a little bit more impressive. San Juan, Puerto Rico. Getting into the Bahamas now. National Hurricane Center thinks this is almost one of two chance of developing into a tropical depression, maybe a tropical storm. What it does after that, we have to wait and see. But obviously it's very close to the U.S. so we want to keep that in mind.
Today's forecast highlights include a front that's going to be driving across the western Great Lakes. As a matter of fact, this front - if that thing does develop, this front may very well act much like the last front that pushed Bill out to see. So keep an eye on that - it could be our saving grace as we get later into the week if that tropical wave does develop.
Eighty-eight, Tampa, 88 degrees in Atlanta, 85 degrees up in New York City. Another beautiful late summer, warm day for you guys in the Big Apple. John and Kiran, back up to you.
ROBERTS: Gorgeous weather up here. Thanks so much, Rob. MARCIANO: You bet.
ROBERTS: And don't forget every Friday, we send Rob on the road for "Rob's Road Show," so where is he going next? He's going to be at the Dog's Day Festival in Mystic, Connecticut this Friday. After that, it could be, up to you - somewhere fun, maybe off the beaten path, maybe not close to the golf courses in Vermont, Rob? Send us your suggestions, just go to CNN.com/amfix.
CHETRY: He's going to be hanging out with the doggies up there. The Dog's Day Festival?
ROBERTS: But the golf course that he really loves is just around the corner from there so - detecting a fine hand of strategic planning.
CHETRY: He finds a way to work in some extracurricular fun regardless of where he goes.
ROBERTS: Why not? It's summer.
CHETRY: Sure thing.
Well, by the way, speaking of fun and work at the same time, Sanjay is in Dublin, Ireland. He's taking a look at Ireland's health care system, what works, and what doesn't. And are there any lessons to be learned by seeing how other countries have made it work or face challenges. It's now 48 minutes after the hour.
ROBERTS: Guinness for strength.
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CHETRY: Welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. It's 52 minutes past the hour right now. With all the fighting going on over health care reform, we often hear comparisons that this country does it this way, could we learn any lessons from that? Like Canada, sometimes the Netherlands.
ROBERTS: Our chief medical correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta is in Ireland for a cancer conference. It's a country where universal coverage may not even be enough.
DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, John and Kiran, I am at the Global Cancer Summit here in Dublin, Ireland, but I couldn't help but think about health care reform back home. You may find this interesting, about five years ago, Ireland found itself in the same position the United States is in now, trying to reform their health care system. So I took advantage of a unique opportunity to sit down with the health minister and find out where Ireland stands now, what went right, and what went wrong.
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GUPTA (voice-over): In Ireland, everyone has access to health care, via a taxed public plan. But half choose to spend additional money on a private plan. (on camera): Why does that happen? So if you have access to the public system, it is not good enough for 50 percent of the people like you say?
MARY HARNEY, IRELAND MINISTER OF HEALTH: They do it for choice of facility or choice of doctor or choice of accommodation, a better quality accommodation, single rooms and private hospitals, for example. Speedier access in many cases, more routine and procedures can be done much more quickly. And if you have access to public health insurance.
RICHARD SALTMAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY: In the public sector, one can wait up to three years for a hip replacement or a corneal lens transplant.
GUPTA (voice-over): Mary Harney says many waiting lists have been cut from years to just a few months, but tough choices still have to be made.
(on camera): If you look at the silos of how they predicated health care reform, they talked about decreasing cost and increasing access. Can you do both? I mean, if you increase access, can you really decrease costs across the board, as well?
HARNEY: Well, it's possible only if you reduce the number of procedures or the cost of those procedures.
GUPTA: Some will say that's rationing.
HARNEY: No matter how much money you put into health, no matter how good your system is, you'll always have more patients than you have capacity at any one time and it's a question of how quickly can you prioritize the treatments for all patients? Whether they're urgent or not so urgent.
GUPTA (voice-over): No matter what country you're from, Ireland or the United States, it comes down to cost.
(on camera): Some people say the Medicare system in the United States is going broke. They said it'll be broke by the year 2017, it's very expensive and hard to maintain budgets. Same problem here in Ireland?
HARNEY: Yes, and we have - we spent - this year we will spend over 40 percent of the money we will raise in taxation in the country on public health care.
GUPTA: Forty percent?
HARNEY: It's an incredible amount of money. And therefore if we're going to do that within existing budgets, then we have to get smarter in the way we provide treatment.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUPTA: You know, John and Kiran, it's worth pointing out that every doctor in Ireland has to accept all types of insurance, including public insurance. Overall, Minister Harney thinks things have gotten better here over the last five years. Waiting times are shorter and everyone is now insured. But as you can see, it has come with tremendous cost. John and Kiran, back to you.
ROBERTS: Sanjay Gupta for us in Dublin this morning.
CHETRY: Fascinating. Even when you have public insurance, people are still opting to buy additional private insurance to get better coverage.
ROBERTS: Same thing in England, you know, there really are two separate health care systems. The NHCS, the National Health Care System and there's a private system that's (INAUDIBLE) because people didn't like the original one. So there's some of that in Canada going on, as well.
Hey, there's something going on in Washington. The attorney general Eric Holder is appointing a special prosecutor to look into CIA interrogations conducted after 9/11. We've got Fran Townsend, our national security analyst as well as Peter Brooks, a former CIA officer coming up to talk more about this in just a few minute's time. It's 55 1/2 minutes now after the hour.
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CHETRY: All you see is tree tops in the ball field there as we look at Central Park this morning. New York City, it's 58 minutes past the hour. Today, it's going to go up to a high of 84, pretty pleasant for late August. Right now it's 71 degrees out there.
And welcome back to the Most News in the Morning. If you like to eat organic, you don't mind spending a little more money. Whole Foods is a place where a lot of people like to go. Now the upscale grocery chain though is in the middle of a big health care reform debate after its CEO wrote an editorial, and now people are boycotting Whole Foods. Our Deb Feyerick is looking into the controversy this morning.
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DEB FEYERICK, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Many who shop at Whole Foods say it's easy to justify spending a little extra money to feel you're staying healthy and may be living longer. So, why are so many people so upset?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Boycott whole foods!
FEYERICK: Price isn't the problem, the issue is an editorial appearing on the "Wall Street Journal's" conservative opinion page, written by the Whole Foods chief executive officer John Macky. He argues universal health care is no more a right than food or shelter.
MARK ROSENTHAL, ACTIVIST: This is about a CEO using one of the most progressive brands in this country to murder any discussion of health care reform and health insurance reform. FEYERICK: Among Macky's suggestions, deregulation, Medicare reform, and allowing higher deductibles, positions similarly advocated by John McCain, Newt Gingrich and conservative groups.
Mark Rosenthal is a playwright, activist and former Whole Foods loyalist. Using Facebook, Twitter, and other social media, he says he has recruited more than 27,000 people to boycott Whole Foods saying the CEO has betrayed the idea which helped build the health food chain.
ROSENTHAL: It's about a brand that has been built up by progressive dollars, being used as a Trojan horse for some of the most discredited lies that we have poisoning this debate on health care right now - lies about deregulation, lies about people who are sick, not taking personal responsibilities.
FEYERICK: Whole Foods provided a statement saying the chain "has no official company-wide position on the health care reform issue and that the CEO was "expressing his own view points and providing constructive ideas to support reform as President Obama invited America to do." So how badly will the boycott hurt sales if at all?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My money says that I should give it to someone else who is actually in support of health care and he's not.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I wouldn't stop me from buying. People are allowed their own opinions.
FEYERICK (on camera): Rosenthal is not organizing the protests per se. He is encouraging people who want to make a difference to hand out copies of the editorial at Whole Foods stores across the country and let shoppers vote with their wallets. Deborah Feyerick, CNN, New York.
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CHETRY: All right. Deb, thanks so much.
