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Nancy Grace
Stepmom`s Relatives Questioned in Missing Haleigh Case
Aired August 31, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Satsuma, Florida. A 5- year-old little girl tucked into bed. Five hours later, she`s gone, vanished into thin air, the back door propped wide open. Daddy comes home from the night shift to find not a trace of little Haleigh.
Bombshell tonight. The physical search for little Haleigh is back on, searchers combing through dense foliage on foot and horseback after girlfriend-slash-baby-sitter Misty Croslin steers police directly to a plot of land near the family home. But what makes Croslin point to that particular spot?
This after Croslin`s brother and sister-in-law led away by police for hours of intense questions when Croslin points the finger at them. We learn Misty Croslin, the last known person to see little Haleigh alive, flunks a private polygraph, flunks, quote, "miserably," racking up a score of 99 percent deceptive. Not only that, reports she flunked a voice stress test, as well.
Even more disheartening, Croslin changes her story, now saying up to four people in the home the night Haleigh goes missing, but calling it a dream-like memory. This on the heels of police announcing Haleigh was not kidnapped by a stranger. Repeat, no stranger snuck into the home that night and snatched the little girl, investigators say Croslin refusing to give straight answers or to account for crucial hours surrounding the disappearance. And cops reveal physical evidence at the scene contradicts her story.
Exclusive tonight. For the first time since his new wife flunks a poly, Haleigh`s father, Ronald Cummings, with us live, answering your questions, taking your calls. Tonight, where is 5-year-old Florida girl Haleigh?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MISTY CROSLIN, HALEIGH`S STEPMOTHER/BABY-SITTER: I put her to bed about 8:00 o`clock. And I woke up, and she was gone! (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking news in the Haleigh Cummings investigation. Stepmom Misty Croslin Cummings`s brother, Tommy Croslin, and his wife have been questioned by the Putnam County sheriff`s office, the questioning lasting about three hours.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Haleigh Cummings`s stepmom, Misty, has taken several new polygraphs, and in the words of one observer, she failed miserably.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did you intentionally withhold any information regarding Haleigh`s disappearance? Her answer was no. She failed it miserably, with a 99 percent deception.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police say the polygraph and voice analysis sessions led them to bring the family members in. Tommy Croslin`s father says his son told investigators he`d even take a polygraph as he was led away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: She is so arrogant, deceptive and manipulative, she thought she could detract the attention away from her.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Misty Croslin Cummings allegedly telling voice expert and PI T.J. Ward she, quote, "keeps hearing things about her brother. I have no idea if he took her," Misty`s brother telling local media Misty is trying to pass the blame onto someone else.
CROSLIN: I`m trying to do everything to find her. You know, I`ll answer any questions I have to because I know I didn`t do anything to that little girl.
RONALD CUMMINGS, HALEIGH`S FATHER: Hello?
911 OPERATOR: OK, sir, let me talk to your wife. Let me get some information from her.
CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Can I talk to her?
CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK.
CUMMINGS: How the (DELETED) can you let my daughter get stole (DELETED)?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And live to Oakland, major developments in the search for a missing 5-year-old boy afflicted with cerebral palsy. Little Hassani reportedly vanishes from the back seat of a car just outside a shoe store at a busy suburban shopping center. How could he just disappear and nobody sees a thing? In a stunning twist, police arrest the foster dad and mom, as police confirm the case now goes from missing person to homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In a stunning twist of events in the Hassani Campbell case, Hassani`s foster parents, Jennifer Campbell and Louis Ross, have been arrested for the disappearance and murder of the 5-year-old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is not a missing persons case anymore. This is a homicide investigation. And we are talking to the people responsible.
GRACE: Mr. Ross, I understand that you did not pass your polygraph. Is that true?
LOUIS ROSS, FOSTER FATHER TO HASSANI CAMPBELL (via telephone): I have been told that my results were that I failed it 99 percent.
GRACE: You failed it 99 percent of it?
ROSS: Yes.
GRACE: Why did you have latex gloves in your car?
ROSS: There were no latex gloves. It was one glove. And it was a hand puppet (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OPD crime scene investigators returned to Campbell`s home. They were possibly looking for more clues and evidence that could lead them to Hassani.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. The physical search for little Haleigh back on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: I just woke up and our back door was open, and we can`t find our daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Stepmom Misty Croslin Cummings`s brother, Tommy Croslin, and his wife, were questioned by the Putnam County sheriff`s office. Tommy and Misty`s dad, Hank Croslin, says allegations against Tommy being involved are untrue, and Tommy has even offered to take a polygraph.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Misty has been deceptive, that her stories don`t make sense, and that the key to this case lies with her.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The back door has two locks on the door. The second lock which you would have to turn is a tight lock, so it wouldn`t be likely that little Haleigh would have been able to turn the lock and then let herself out the door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tommy Croslin tells First Coast (ph) News he has no idea why his sister`s accusing him and reportedly says she`s trying to pass the blame onto someone else.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you listen to her speak, she closes off. She doesn`t speak loud enough. She dies off at the end. That`s always a sign of deception when it`s done consistently.
CROSLIN: People think that I had something to do with it. If I had something to do with it, I knew where she was, we wouldn`t be sitting here today. We would have her.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live tonight. And joining us, the father of little Haleigh, Ronald Cummings, is with us live. He`s speaking out for the very first time since his new wife has allegedly flunked a polygraph.
But first I want to go to T.j. Hart, news director with WSKY 97.3 FM. T.J., I understand another search has been conducted near the family home on foot and on horseback. Why that location? Who led police to that spot?
T.J. HART, WSKY 97.3 FM: The search was on Saturday, and that was orchestrated by TES, Texas Equusearch. And it was something that came out in the conversation with Misty. During questioning with some of the people that Tim Miller had put together, T.J. Ward and company, she made mention of an area that had a plastic rose in the grass. She felt that it hadn`t been searched carefully enough. And on Saturday, they conducted that search with several volunteers. It turned up empty. LE (ph) does have the plastic rose that she had mentioned in there, but no concrete results, nothing that law enforcement said that changed anything at this point.
GRACE: And to Natisha Lance, on the story from the very beginning, what can you tell me, Natisha Lance, about Misty Croslin, the baby-sitter- slash-girlfriend-turned-wife, the last person to see the little girl alive? Her brother, her blood brother, and sister-in-law were led away by police for intense interrogation. Why? Why did police want to speak to them?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: That`s right, Nancy. There was something that happened with Misty Croslin during her voice analysis, and something that she said led investigators to want to question her brother and her sister-in-law. Investigators took them in. They questioned them for about three hours. They let them go. They didn`t find any information, according to law enforcement, that offered up anything new as to Haleigh`s disappearance or any new information. But the one thing that they continue to say is that Misty Croslin remains to be inconsistent.
GRACE: Again, with us tonight, Ronald Cummings. This is little Haleigh`s father. He has never shied away from the camera and answering your questions, taking calls live. He apparently has nothing to hide. And with him, his attorney, Terry Shoemaker, a well respected attorney. They`re joining us from Jacksonville, Florida.
Ronald, thank you for being with us again.
CUMMINGS: Thank you for having us.
GRACE: Liz, please put Ronald on screen for me. Ronald, what do you make of Misty flunking a polygraph?
CUMMINGS: I don`t know anything about her flunking a polygraph. I know what`s been said about it, but I`m not a polygrapher myself so I didn`t see any results. I didn`t -- you know, I was told by the polygrapher who did the polygraph that it`s not judged in percentages, that a polygraph is either a failed or a pass, not in percentages.
GRACE: Well, OK. Let`s take what you know, that you either fail it or you pass it. Well, according to these reports, she flunked it -- I mean, royally flunked it. And that`s got to concern you.
CUMMINGS: Well, until I see more physical proof of what`s going on, Miss Nancy, there`s -- my concerns are still on keeping Haleigh`s face on the TV and being sure that she is found and whoever has done this to her or -- is put away.
GRACE: OK, Ronald, I understand that you want to keep Haleigh`s face out there, and we are doing that. But I know you and I do not believe you are not concerned about a report that your wife flunked a polygraph. It would concern me.
TERRY SHOEMAKER, ATTORNEY FOR RONALD CUMMINGS: Nancy, if I might? You know, of course Ronald`s concerned about a lot of things going on right now, but I think the main thing he`s concerned about is making sure that Haleigh is found. And you know, again, we`d like to thank you for keeping Haleigh in the spotlight and making sure everyone continues to look for her and helping us every way you possibly can. But we`re more concerned with that aspect, rather than whether or not Misty may or may not have done well on a polygraph.
GRACE: You know, Mr. Shoemaker, you have an excellent reputation. And what you just said does not make one ounce of sense. Of course, you want her picture out there. Of course, you want the help of the media. But for the last person known to have seen Haleigh alive to have reportedly flunked a polygraph, how you can suggest that is not a major concern -- you want to find her? You want to find Haleigh? Then find out why Misty reportedly flunked a polygraph. Gentlemen, does that not make sense to you?
Ronald Cummings, I would like to hear it from you.
CUMMINGS: Nancy, what you`re saying makes perfect sense to me. But why is law enforcement -- I`m not law enforcement. I can`t interfere with their investigation. I can`t do anything about a polygraph or...
GRACE: Well, what is she telling you, Ronald? What is she telling you? I mean, she took that police polygraph. I don`t believe she passed it the first time. I don`t believe she did. Now this one. Then there was that voice stress test. I mean, something is wrong with her story, Ronald.
CUMMINGS: I don`t know, Miss Nancy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If I have something, she wants it. So if we buy something for me, we buy the same thing for her.
CROSLIN: I just want everybody to know that I was home because I did pass my lie detector test saying that I was home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They told you you passed?
CROSLIN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If you`re in your bed with your child and you get up to go to use the bathroom, is there enough time for somebody to come in your house and snatch your child out of the bed and disappear without you getting back to the bed in time? No.
CROSLIN: Three o`clock in the morning, I got up. And I got up because I had to go to the bathroom, but I didn`t make it to the bathroom. I seen the kitchen light on, and I walked in the kitchen and the back door`s wide open. And I mean, I didn`t notice about Haleigh (INAUDIBLE) until I seen the back door open.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The back door has two locks on the door. The second lock which you would have to turn is a tight lock, so it wouldn`t be likely that little Haleigh would have been able to turn the lock and then let herself out the door.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I asked her specifically what happened between the 9th of February into the 10th of February, and I let her ramble. And as she rambles, it tells me -- it shows me stress. It shows me inaccuracies. It shows me things that she`s talking about that may not be true. And at the end of our test, it showed that she knew something about the disappearance of Haleigh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Joining me tonight, Misty`s father, Ronald Cummings -- excuse me, Haleigh`s father, Ronald Cummings.
Straight to the lines. Gail in Virginia. Hi, Gail.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Ms. Grace. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I wanted to ask Mr. Cummings -- the baby`s been missing since February. Why have they not brought in the cadaver dogs?
GRACE: You know, it`s my understanding that they have. To T.J. Hart. Have cadaver dogs ever been brought in?
HART: Yes, they have. In fact, they were out there several months ago, and cadaver dogs did make a hit on a dumpster and -- actually, two of them. And they went through those dumpsters late into the night. Our CNN/HLN cameras were on that the whole time. They found nothing of significance.
GRACE: Melodie, Oklahoma. Or is that Ohio, Melodie?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ohio.
GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. I just got your book, and I cannot wait to read it. But anyway...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... she failed the first polygraph. Now they`re saying that she didn`t -- that she failed the second, too. I can see her inconsistencies, but why would she pass the one and not the other two? And then we`re speaking about this rose. Who would have put that rose there where they went to look? Thank you.
GRACE: Thank you, Melodie in Ohio. Out to you, Natisha. I was only aware of two polygraphs taken by Misty Croslin.
LANCE: Actually, there`s a total of three she`s taken now. She took one by the FBI, one by the Putnam County sheriff`s office...
GRACE: Ah. Yes. Yes. The FBI one.
LANCE: Yes, and now this new one that was orchestrated by Tim Miller.
GRACE: And Natisha, doesn`t she say that she passed one of them?
LANCE: She did say that she had passed one of them. However, law enforcement will not confirm either way to us.
GRACE: So we don`t know whether she passed or not?
LANCE: That`s right.
GRACE: OK, I want to go to special guest joining us tonight, T.j. Ward. He`s the president of Investigative Consultants International, and he is the one who administered the layered voice analysis, which we have been calling a voice stress test. Welcome, Mr. Ward. Thank you for being with us.
T.J. WARD, ADMINISTERED MISTY VOICE ANALYSIS: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good. Mr. Ward, what question that you say she failed concerns you the most? And I have a list of many of your questions right here with me.
WARD: Well, let me tell you exactly what I did. I went through with her and let her ramble and tell me about what happened from February the 9th into February the 10th. The relevant questions that you see on the test results that you have, that you`re looking at, are relevants that I have pulled from the test, from her talking completely through the whole test.
And some of the things that are coming up here -- specifically, if you look about where it says Haleigh -- the blanket smelled like pee, it comes up probably false, and it`s got P-7 and P-9. Well, those two things refer to high rejection incitement, and it`s abnormal emotional, and she`s not -- she`s lying. She`s not telling the truth about that. So that`s one of the things that concerns me.
Then I directly came out and asked her as to her involvement, and I said, Do you know who took Haleigh? And it came back inaccuracy and deception indicated, which tells me that she knows something about this baby being taken from the trailer on the 9th into the 10th.
GRACE: I also see the statement she says, I don`t think she -- Haleigh -- is dead. And beside that, you write "inaccuracy."
WARD: Right. In her mind, what`s going on, what her mind is coming up and telling me, that when I -- when she talked about that, she doesn`t - - she doesn`t know whether she`s dead or whether she`s not dead. It`s inaccurate. It`s an inaccurate statement. She does not know. And my gut feeling from looking at this test, that she is involved and does know something about the disappearance of Haleigh Cummings.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She says, Is there any way we can do a voice test? I hear they work. I made contact, did a lot of research, contacted a hypnotist that`s actually retired from NYPD, a detective. And everything was just miserably failed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: What time did she go to bed?
CUMMINGS: Approximately 10:30, 11:00.
GRACE: At 10:30, 11:00. At that time, was little Haleigh in the bed asleep with the brother?
CUMMINGS: Yes.
GRACE: And they all slept together in the same bed, correct?
CUMMINGS: Yes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was told they was all three in the same bed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For somebody to walk in the house and pick up a child laying beside another person is just ridiculous.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It`s just (INAUDIBLE) that she can get up to go to the bathroom, and when she comes back to the bed, the baby`s gone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. Out to Diane in Canada. Hi, dear.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. How are you, Nancy?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, first of all, I want to say thank you, Nancy, for everything you do. I`ve watched you ever since you were on Larry King...
GRACE: Thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... and I think you`re the best and please keep the good work up. And we should have more of you in Canada and U.S.
GRACE: Thank you, Diane in Canada. Thank you very much.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And your babies are beautiful.
GRACE: I am so blessed. It`s like God heard my prayers...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Thank you for showing them.
GRACE: ... and answered them 10,000 times over.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, we prayed for you, Nancy.
GRACE: Yes, and I`ve got photos for this week.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Excellent.
GRACE: I set them on a tricycle. They didn`t know what to do. It had one of those sticks in the back, where you can steer it. So I basically got stuck with pushing them around and around our church...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, my dear...
GRACE: ... for about an hour-and-a-half. I can`t lift my arms.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: But I have photos of them on a tricycle. What do you think about this case, Diane?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I have a concern. I would like to know, is it possible that Misty would have had a male companion there that evening, and Haleigh was asleep and got up and saw something that she shouldn`t have, and maybe she might know who this other person was? And I think they panicked and could have done something to this little baby.
GRACE: OK. Diane, I`ve been thinking a lot about the possibility she may be covering for somebody else. So let`s go straight out to T.J. Hart with WSKY. T.J., explain to me why Misty`s own brother and sister-in-law were led away by police for questioning, for hours of interrogation? What made police take them away?
HART: What made them take them away were some things that came out of some questioning that was taken care of during the voice stress test and the polygraph and stuff like that.
GRACE: Hold on. Wait, wait, wait. Wait!
HART: What?
GRACE: Can you just break it down?
HART: Yes.
GRACE: Did police take them because of something Misty Croslin said?
HART: Yes, they did. And they were not very clear on what that was, other than it was a claim that was made and they want to check that out further.
GRACE: OK. I got it. Eleanor Dixon joining us tonight. Eleanor, that leads me to think, if she would suggest her own blood brother may somehow know something about Haleigh`s disappearance, I don`t believe she`s covering for anybody else.
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, no...
GRACE: I mean, she gave that up.
DIXON: Yes, she gave that up. And who knows what happened? The caller had a good question. Who else might have been there the night Haleigh went missing?
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: She said it seems like maybe it was a dream or something but it seems like maybe I remember like four people or something, maybe I thought I was dreaming or something.
The polygrapher is a retired homicide detective, and he said what he`s reading out of that is there was two or more other people involved. So when Haleigh was actually taken out of the house, she really doesn`t know which one took her to her final destination.
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER OF MISSING 5-YR-OLD HALEIGH CUMMINGS: I pulled into the yard. The front door was wide open. She was standing in it. I asked her what she was doing up. She told me that the back door was wide open and Haleigh was gone. I turned the house upside down and told her to call 911.
T.J. HART, PROGRAM & NEWS DIRECTOR, WSKY 97.3FM: She asked to take this polygraph in order to clear her name. They said the story had been inconsistent. Still some more inconsistencies arose from some of the stories she told them.
And one of them is with that timeline once again, where she claims she put Haleigh down at 8:00 p.m. and herself went to sleep at 10:00 to wake up abruptly at 3:00 to find Haleigh gone. Ronald Cummings says that bed was made, it didn`t appear that anybody had been to bed.
CUMMINGS: She told me that she was sleeping, her and Junior were sleeping in my queen size bed and that she was sleeping in the tot bed beside her, three or four feet from her.
MISTY CROSLIN-CUMMINGS, RONALD CUMMING`S WIFE, LAST SEEN HALEIGH: I`m trying to do everything to find her. You know, answer any questions I have to. Because I know I didn`t do anything to that little girl. I would never hurt her. They love me. They -- I mean, they look at me like their mom. You know. You ask little Junior, he`ll tell you. You know. They talk lovely about me, and I`m so good to them kids.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Straight back out to Ronald Cummings. This is Haleigh`s father, who is joining us tonight. And he is taking your calls live. This is the first time he is speaking out exclusively here after his bride, his new wife, allegedly flunks a polygraph.
Ronald, I know that your heart`s desire is to bring her home alive. I`ll never forget the first time I heard your 911 call. And I think that is exactly the way I would have reacted if I came home and the twins were gone. And I want to know what you want to tell the viewers tonight.
CUMMINGS: I want to tell them to keep Haleigh`s face out there, and if you have any information leading to her disappearance to call it in. It don`t matter who it hurts. And I want to let everyone know that I`m not hiding anything for anybody. And if somebody had something to do with it, let them fry. So be it. Whoever it might be. That`s who -- that`s who it is. Let`s bring Haleigh home.
GRACE: Ronald, why did police question Misty Croslin`s brother and sister-in-law? What was that all about? They kept them for hours.
CUMMINGS: Miss Nancy, I don`t have a clue what they questioned them about. I`m not allowed around them.
GRACE: That`s right. I understand. Ronald, what do you believe is being done now in the search for Haleigh? I know they just finished another search around your home, and they did that because your wife, Misty Croslin, directed them to a particular spot.
CUMMINGS: Well, I`m happy that they`re still searching. I hope that they find my child alive, obviously. But one way or another I want my daughter to come home.
GRACE: Ronald, you said.
CUMMINGS: I need some closure.
GRACE: You said that you don`t care who it hurts and that you`re not covering for anybody.
CUMMINGS: That`s right.
GRACE: OK. And I assume from knowing you that you mean that. So my question to you tonight is now that you have been told, whether you accept it or not, that your wife has flunked a poly, have you asked her what`s happened? What does she tell you?
I mean, I saw her on "The Today Show," and they asked her, why did you give two different stories? And she said, "I don`t know." That doesn`t make sense.
CUMMINGS: I asked her. But I don`t get any answers from her about, you know -- I don`t see -- what she`s telling me is not inconsistent.
GRACE: OK.
CUMMINGS: So maybe what she.
GRACE: And what is it that she tells you? What is her story about what happened that night?
CUMMINGS: The same thing that she`s telling police, or whoever, that she went to bed -- she put Haleigh to bed, done some laundry, went to bed, and woke up to the door propped open.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Eleanor Dixon, Atlanta. Peter Odom, defense attorney out of Atlanta. Anne Bremner, high-profile lawyer out of Seattle.
First to you, Anne Bremner, weigh in.
ANNE BREMNER, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I just have to think about the Misty and the polygraph, Nancy. Think about they`re not admissible in court. Ted Bundy passed one. And one other thing in terms of use of these, they`re not to be used on juveniles. She`s still pretty young. And then finally, we don`t have somebody that`s a certified polygraph examiner here. So I just have to kind of whoa, stop a little and speak a little for Misty.
GRACE: You know what, Anne?
BREMNER: Yes?
GRACE: You`re right.
BREMNER: Thank you.
GRACE: You`re absolutely correct. In that Ted Bundy did pass a polygraph. They are not infallible. However, let me ask you this, Miss Bremner.
BREMNER: Yes.
GRACE: Isn`t it true that you have asked some of your clients to take a polygraph before?
BREMNER: Well, Nancy, I have. But you know what? When I`ve done it.
GRACE: Why?
BREMNER: Because I want to know privately. But when not do it privately I don`t think.
GRACE: But did you believe it?
BREMNER: Did I believe the results?
GRACE: Yes.
BREMNER: You know what?
GRACE: No, I want to see Bremner.
BREMNER: Nancy, I don`t know if I would take one myself.
GRACE: That`s not what I asked you. You sent your own clients privately, you don`t tell the other side.
BREMNER: But you know what? But you know I agree.
GRACE: . for a polygraph. Why do you do it?
BREMNER: Because you know why I do it? Because if I`m going to use it in a case and try to use it on rehab of my client and bring it in pretrial I want to use it in some of my criminal cases. And that`s why I use it, Nancy.
GRACE: So.
BREMNER: I don`t believe to see.
(CROSSTALK)
BREMNER: It`s true. It`s true.
GRACE: When it benefits you, when a polygraph benefits your client, you use it.
BREMNER: Sure.
GRACE: When it doesn`t benefit your client, you pretend it didn`t happen?
BREMNER: But you know what? They`re not reliable. And that`s been true for decades.
GRACE: They`re not reliable but you use it.
BREMNER: Yes. But you know what, Nancy? They`re not reliable to convict somebody and they`re not reliable in a court of law. They`re only reliable when you use them to rehab or a defendant only in certain cases in the federal courts. And when you come upfront and you tell a judge that someone passed a polygraph, your client.
That`s it. So are they reliable? No. Do the courts.
GRACE: When you tell a judge your client passed a polygraph, that is it, you said. What do you mean that is it?
BREMNER: Well, Nancy, because that`s the only way I use it. When I say that is it, you use it in certain ways and that is it. You cannot put it -- you know who decides truth in these cases and you know it, Nancy, is the jury, not a polygraph.
GRACE: OK. You have gotten us totally off the question. Beautifully.
BREMNER: It`s a question.
GRACE: To you, Eleanor Dixon. The truth of the matter is that lawyers rely on polygraphs all the time. They can be beaten. That`s true. Ted Bundy was a pathological liar. He lied nearly every time he committed a murder he would pick a girl up on the beach or wherever. So he was a pathological liar. He was used to it his life. That was his nature, to lie. That`s not true of everyone.
What do you make of it, Eleanor?
ELEANOR DIXON, PROSECUTOR: Well, Nancy, I think it`s important to look at these polygraphs because it`s not necessarily important whether they pass or fail but how the statements are inconsistent. Here it sounds like Ronald Cummings is into his matrimonial bliss and is not willing to face what is actually going on with these tests.
GRACE: But I do think that there is more than a grain of truth, Peter Odom, to what Anne Bremner out of Seattle said. This is not a state polygrapher like you would find at the, for instance, Georgia Bureau of Investigation. It was not an FBI polygraph. It is a known polygrapher. That`s true. But many people believe that there is a difference. And she could be considered a juvenile.
PETER ODOM, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Right. Well, Nancy, I think the fact that there are three different polygraphs that this young girl has taken and three different results tells you a lot about the unreliability of polygraphy. It`s more art than science. That`s why it`s not admissible.
GRACE: OK.
ODOM: And I`m shocked so many people are putting so much stock in this.
GRACE: Well, you yourself have sent clients for a polygraph.
ODOM: No, I have not. Never. I never would.
GRACE: Never as a prosecutor did you ever take into account a polygraph? Never once? Because I know for a fact that you did.
ODOM: I would take into account a person`s reaction to a polygraph, not the result. Because the reaction is important.
GRACE: So you did?
ODOM: Take the result -- take into .
GRACE: Yes.
ODOM: . consideration of the reaction to the polygraph.
GRACE: Yes.
ODOM: Not necessarily the result.
GRACE: OK. Go ahead and split hairs if you want to.
ODOM: It`s an important distinction, Nancy.
GRACE: . but I know that you did. I want to hear from Marc Klaas. Weigh in, Marc.
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Tim Miller has value in his searches for a variety of reasons. The area they searched hadn`t been searched for a long time. As the Caylee case shows, sometimes you have to go over the same piece of property numerous times before you finally come up with the reality.
But as far as his business of handling polygraphs and things like that, I think he has absolutely no business doing that. That`s amateur work. This should be left to the professionals.
GRACE: Quick break, everyone. We are taking your calls live. To tonight`s "Safety Tip." Housing market down. Foreclosures up. These are tips to stop mortgage fraud. If it sounds too good to be true, it is. Watch out for suspicious offers promising a huge profit in a short time.
Remember, there is not a quick fix. Steer clear of e-mails or ads that promise to eliminate mortgage loans or save from you defaults. Don`t fall for no money down loans. Review title history. If the home has been sold multiple times in a short amount of time, it may have been flipped, with the value falsely inflated.
And never, never, never sign blank documents or anything you don`t understand. For more information go to FBI.gov.
ANNOUNCER: "Nancy Safety Tips," brought to you by.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: 911. What`s your emergency?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just woke up and our back door was open and we can`t find our daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: Can`t find what?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Our daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: OK. What`s your address?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Green Lane.
UNIDENTIFIED 911 DISPATCHER: What`s the numerical?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to Dr. Jeff Gardere, psychologist and author. Dr. Gardere, I noticed in her questions from T.J. Ward, who gave her this polygraph test, she again refers to "that little girl." That`s about the third time I`ve heard her refer to Haleigh as that little girl instead of by name. What, if anything, does that mean?
JEFF GARDERE, PSYCHOLOGIST, AUTHOR OF "LOVE PRESCRIPTION": It means that there`s a distance between herself and Haleigh and her relationship is primarily with Ronald.
The other thing I wanted to say very, very quickly, Nancy, is that it`s not about the results of the polygraph or the voice analysis. It`s about the behavior that comes out of it. And what it tells us is that this is a young woman who is pretty disturbed in my clinical opinion. And she was the last one we know of who saw Haleigh before she disappeared.
GRACE: Weigh in, John Lucich. I think I`ve got John Lucich. Go ahead.
JOHN LUCICH, INVESTIGATOR, AUTHOR OF "CYBER LIES": That polygraph is consistent with all the facts of the case. Number one, all those tests contradict Misty. All the physical evidence contradicts Misty. And even Misty contradicted Misty. That polygraph in this case I believe is right on because it confirms all the other evidence.
GRACE: To Howard Oliver. Dr. Oliver, former deputy medical examiner, forensic pathologist out of L.A.
Dr. Oliver, if she has passed away, if her body has been out in the elements, what would you expect to find? Could you determine cause of death at this juncture?
DR. HOWARD OLIVER, FMR. DEPUTY MEDICAL EXAMINER; FORENSIC PATHOLOGIST: Not very likely. It`s been a very long period of time since February. The body, if it`s out in the elements, should be skeletonized by now.
GRACE: Back to Ronald Cummings, our special guest tonight. Ronald, you and I have been on this story from the very, very beginning. And I don`t even like asking the medical examiner questions like that while I know you are listening because you`re holding out the hope, as am I, that she is alive.
CUMMINGS: Yes.
GRACE: Once again, I want you to make a plea to the viewers tonight. Everyone, the tip line is 888-277-8477. Go ahead, Ronald.
CUMMINGS: Please, whoever knows anything about Haleigh`s disappearance, anything about where she might be now, or anything about anything from February 9th to February 10th of 2009, please call the Crimestoppers or the Putnam County Sheriff`s Office.
GRACE: And please know, Ronald, that you are in our thoughts and prayers, as is little Haleigh.
CUMMINGS: Thank you.
GRACE: Very quickly, we are shifting gears to little Hasanni. His investigation turns from missing person to homicide.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We do believe that Hasanni Campbell has been murdered.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police in Oakland, California say Hasanni Campbell was killed. His case has shifted from a missing person investigation now to a homicide probe. His foster parents, they were arrested. His aunt, Jennifer Campbell and her Fiancee, Louis Ross. Ross still behind bars held on suspicion of murder.
GRACE: Mr. Ross, I understand that you did not pass your polygraph. Is that true?
LOUIS ROSS, FOSTER FATHER TO HASANNI CAMPBELL: That is what I`ve been told, correct.
GRACE: What were the questions they asked you?
ROSS: Do I know where Hasanni is, and can I take them to where Hassanni is?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The arrest should not be a factor in people searching for him. We still need to bring Hasanni home.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The police still have no idea where little Hasanni is. But they are confident that this boy is unfortunately killed, allegedly at the hands of his foster father`s.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Sebastian Kunz, KNEW Radio, joining us out of San Francisco, I understand the foster father and mother were taken into custody, mother later released. What happened?
SEBASTIAN KUNZ, REPORTER, KNEW RADIO, COVERING STORY: Nancy, what happened is that on Friday they were taken into custody, Louis Ross, on charges of suspicion of murder, and Jennifer Campbell on charges of accessory after the fact. However, it was just this afternoon that she was released from the Santa Rita jail in Dublin on lack of evidence.
GRACE: Out to John Burris, famed defense attorney out of Oakland, California. Practices throughout the California area and across the country. He`s been an adviser to Louis Ross and Jennifer Campbell, the foster mother and father, and he has now decided to come off the case. He will no longer be representing them.
John, I do not -- welcome. I do not believe that the police have any physical evidence right now. But don`t you find it coincidental that they take these two into custody and by the time they finish talking to them they have decided this is a homicide case?
JOHN BURRIS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY (via phone): Well, it is surprising that that`s the route that they took. And I believe that they believed there was a homicide case for a long time, but I don`t think they have any evidence whatsoever to support that.
I think that they just adopted that position because they were not able to corroborate any of the statements in their own mind that Mr. Ross has said. I was pretty much shocked that they in fact arrested either one of them, particularly Miss Campbell, because they really have no evidence that she committed any particular crime, nor was she an accessory after the fact.
Her statement has always been pretty clear that she knew nothing about what had happened, that she was like everyone else looking for this child and that whatever she knew was told to her as a consequence of -- that does not make her an accessory after the fact.
GRACE: John, I hear you totally concentrating on the innocence of Jennifer Campbell. And I think that`s highly astute of you to avoid the possibility that Louis Ross.
BURRIS: I`m not really avoiding.
GRACE: . is guilty.
BURRIS: I`m not avoiding it. But I was just talking about her.
GRACE: You certainly are.
BURRIS: He is presently in custody. No, he is in custody. From her point of view I`ve already stated my position. From his point of view, I don`t know that the police have any evidence at all that`s concrete..
GRACE: Well, obviously, something that they said caused this case to flip from a missing persons to a homicide.
Matt Zarrell, what happened?
BURRIS: I don`t think there`s anything she said at all. I think what they basically said that whatever he said they could not prove.
GRACE: Got it.
BURRIS: . what he said happened. So that`s basically.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: I want to ask Matt Zarrell on the story.
Matt, isn`t it true that no one else has seen the little boy for four days before the father, the foster father says he had him?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: That`s correct, Nancy. Apparently the only confirmed sighting we have is August 6th at a Wal-Mart in the area. That`s the last time anyone saw Hasanni with his foster parents.
GRACE: We`ll be back with Marc Klaas, John Lucich and the lawyers.
As we go to break, thoughts and prayers to Georgia friend of the show, Barbara Collier. She never misses a show and even though she was about to enter the hospital, she came to a recent book signing for "Eleventh Victim."
Barbara, stay strong and please get well.
On a happy note, happy birthday to New Jersey friend, Joann Rogers. She never misses a show and has been watching for almost 11 years. She loves travel, taking cruises every year, spending time with friends and six nephews.
Happy birthday, Joann.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ROSS: It`s not that I`m (INAUDIBLE). I don`t know what I`m allowed to say right now because the investigation spotlight is still on us. I have not spoken to the media up to this point, not because we were shying away, we`re hiding. There were the police and FBI gave them wrong information. First (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GRACE: Little Hassani reported missing outside a shoe store of a busy shopping mall, but now, his foster father under arrest. The case turned from a missing person to a homicide. What was so heartbreaking about this case, Hasanni reported having little braces on his legs. He was afflicted with cerebral palsy.
Weigh in, Marc Klaas.
KLAAS: Mr. Ross`s story has never made any sense.
GRACE: No, it has not.
KLAAS: He failed his polygraph. There are suspicious text messages.
GRACE: I mean, Marc. Marc, would you dare leave a child alone in the back of a store while you walk around in the front of the store for what, to get them to let you in? Why would you -- if I can still to this day pick up both twins and they`re pushing 40 pounds. All right? Rather that leave one, no way.
KLAAS: Well, it`s a self-serving convenient story for him, basically. It`s what it is. You know, and the other thing he never did is he never reached out to any of the child locater organizations in the Bay Area that are set up specifically to assist in these kinds of situations.
I waited for his call for 18 days and it never came. So, you know, I`m not surprised by this turn of events. The problem though as I see it right now is we have absolutely no idea where that little boy`s body is. I mean, absolutely no idea. So it`s going to be very difficult to search and to locate him.
GRACE: Marc Klaas, the thought of this little child going through so much, having to go to a foster home, having to fight cerebral palsy.
KLAAS: Yes.
GRACE: And now this.
KLAAS: Yes. It`s true.
GRACE: Let`s stop and remember Army Specialist Ryan Bell, 21, Colville, Washington, killed Iraq. A Riverside Military grad, turned down multiple scholarships to enlist. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, Army Commendation Medal. Dreamed of being a doctor, starting a family.
Loved singing, dancing, sports, hiking and camping with his father. Remembered as a walking sports encyclopedia. Leaves behind parents, Michael and Sheryl, widow, Carrie.
Ryan Bell, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. And a special good night from friends of the show, Stacy and Lisa. Aren`t they beautiful?
Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp, Eastern.
And tonight, God bless little Hasanni and Haleigh Cummings. Until tomorrow night, good night, friend.
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