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Nancy Grace
Croslin Says She Was Tricked Into Polygraph
Aired September 01, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight, Satsuma, Florida. A 5- year-old little girl tucked into bed. Five hours later, she`s gone, vanished, the back door propped wide open. Daddy comes home from the night shift to find not a trace of little Haleigh.
Bombshell tonight. After searchers comb through dense foliage on foot, on horseback, following a tip from girlfriend-slash-baby-sitter Misty Croslin, and we know Croslin, the last person to see Haleigh alive, flunks a polygraph with a score of 99 percent deceptive, in the last hours, Croslin says she was tricked, tricked into taking that polygraph. And she insists she passed. Well, that`s not what the polygrapher tells us.
Croslin also reveals she`s afraid her phone`s tapped. But wait a minute. When a little child is missing, who cares if your phone`s tapped! What is there to hide? Now reports she flunked a voice stress test, changes her story, now saying up to four people in the home the night Haleigh goes missing, but calling it a dream-like memory.
Police insist Haleigh not kidnapped by a stranger. No stranger snuck into the home and snatched the little girl. Tonight, we have girlfriend- slash-baby-sitter-turned stepmom on tape. Where is 5-year-old Haleigh?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
911 OPERATOR: 911. What`s your emergency?
MISTY CROSLIN, HALEIGH`S BABY-SITTER: I just woke up and our back door was open, and I can`t find my daughter.
911 OPERATOR: Sir, let me talk to your wife. Let me get some information from her.
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK...
CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: Can I talk to her?
CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE)
911 OPERATOR: OK.
CUMMINGS: How the (DELETED) can you let my daughter get stole (DELETED)?
CROSLIN: He told me that if I didn`t take them tests that he wasn`t going to look for Haleigh. And that`s why I took them tests because I don`t want no one to stop looking for Haleigh.
GRACE: Ronald, what do you make of Misty flunking a polygraph?
CUMMINGS: I don`t know anything about her flunking a polygraph. I know what`s been said about it, but I`m not a polygrapher myself, so I didn`t see any results. I didn`t get the -- you know, I was told by the polygrapher who did the polygraph that it`s not judged in percentages.
CROSLIN: When I showed up there, they told me I was taking a polygraph. And I was, like, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you at any point say, I don`t want to do this?
CROSLIN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
CROSLIN: Because I thought I was helping. I was trying to do everything I can to find Haleigh.
CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE) find my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK. Do you think Misty holds some information that could help do that?
CUMMINGS: I don`t think Misty holds any information that`s going to find Haleigh.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: And tonight, a young Ohio mom makes a desperate 911 call when her 5-week-old baby boy goes missing, the baby later found dead, bagged and thrown in a dumpster like trash. Tonight in a bizarre twist, the alleged perp behind bars for murder. Motive? Motive? To conceal the crime of underage sex. The alleged perp`s ID -- well, tonight, let`s just call her Mommy. That`s right, Mommy accused of killing a 5-week-old baby to hide the fact the bio dad, the biological father, is a boy himself. P.S., Mommy`s pushing 30!
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE) last night.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That`s the voice of Asuncion Villa, who goes by Suzie (ph). Hamilton police say Monday just before noon, she called 911 and said her boyfriend had taken her newborn son the night before and hadn`t come back. Hamilton police started searching for 5-week-old Israel Santos.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Prosecutors allege she killed her 35-day-old son, crushing his skull, then dumping him in the garbage can behind her home. The motive? Investigators believe the baby was murdered to cover up the identity of the biological father, who is under 16 years old.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She had placed the child in a trash bag in a garbage can. The child was dead. She placed the child in a garbage can. It`s just something you can`t comprehend until you see it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The coroner determined the baby suffered a crushed skull, broken arm, and was underweight. Villa has pled not guilty to the charges.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, I was calling because last night, one of my ex-boyfriends came to pick up one of my sons. He said he was going to take him out to show him to his friends, and he hasn`t come back yet. This is last night.
911 OPERATOR: He has -- he has your son, you`re saying (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, he has my son and I haven`t seen him since last night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Oh, oh, oh! Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. After scores of police and volunteers go on foot, on horseback, combing dense foliage in a renewed search for 5-year-old Florida girl Haleigh, all her stepmommy has to say is she was tricked into flunking a polygraph. Tonight, the girlfriend-slash-baby-sitter-turned- stepmom, Misty Croslin, on tape. Let`s hear it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: If they go out and look for the right person, maybe they -- they would be -- have the answers, but they`re trying to get all the answers from me that I don`t have.
GRACE: Now that you have been told, whether you accept it or not, that your wife has flunked a poly, have you asked her what happened? What does she tell you?
CUMMINGS: I asked her, but I don`t get any answers from her about, you know -- I don`t (INAUDIBLE) what she`s telling me is not inconsistent.
CROSLIN: He called the phone and said that, I`m going to take -- I`m going to take you to Orlando to get you away because your days are numbered. And I was, like, OK. I didn`t know what to say to him.
GRACE: What is her story about what happened that night?
CUMMINGS: The same thing that she`s telling police or whoever, that she went to bed -- she put Haleigh to bed, done some laundry and went to bed, and woke up to the door propped open.
911 OPERATOR: Tell him we got them coming. He needs to try to calm down a little bit, OK? The officers are going to come out there and do what they can. We can`t have him screaming and yelling at the officers whenever they get there, OK?
CUMMINGS: Give me my (DELETED) phone! I got better people to talk to than a (DELETED) (DELETED) that ain`t coming!
CROSLIN: I`ll try and do everything I can to find Haleigh. Anything for Haleigh, I`ll do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to T.J. Hart, news director WSKY 97.3 FM. It just gets more and more twisted and bizarre. Tell me -- we`re going to play it for the viewers in just a moment -- your interpretation. What`s your take on what Croslin had to say today?
T.J. HART, WSKY 97.3 FM (via telephone): Croslin actually kind of mixed herself up a little bit. On the tape, she said she was duped, and then she said she voluntarily took a tape -- took a polygraph, rather. This was after Tim Miller from TES asked if they wanted to get away for a couple of days to clear their heads out. She claims that once they went down to Orlando that she was surprised and she was told that she was going to take a polygraph. Then asked if she was going to submit to one, she said, yes, OK. So it`s another one of these inconsistencies and contradictions.
Also with this, they were talking about cell phones because Ron thought that his cell phone might be tapped and might -- and his GPS might give his location away and...
GRACE: Whoa! Wait a minute!
HART: (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Wait a minute! Wait a minute! Everybody, we`re talking your calls live. With a child missing, she claimed she`s duped, tricked into flunking a polygraph, and now the big concern is whether their phones are tapped.
Let`s unleash the lawyers. Jennifer Smetters out of Chicago, veteran defense attorney Raymond Giudice out of Atlanta, and Kathleen Mullin, renowned defense attorney out of New York.
Ray Giudice, why do they care if their phone is tapped? Listen, if the feds want to listen to me talk to my mom and my executive producer and talk about the twins` vaccinations and what they ate and whether they poopied that day, fine. You know what? I`d be mad if you didn`t! So what`s their beef if somebody`s listening to their cell phone?
RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, the story gets curiouser and curiouser as we go along. And I`m starting to look at the actions...
GRACE: That`s actually not...
GIUDICE: ... of the father...
GRACE: ... a word, but that`s not an issue...
GIUDICE: Thank you. That`s my job, is to make up words. But I`m starting to look at the father`s actions as being very inconsistent. You just asked him point-blank, Your wife failed a polygraph. Do you believe that change -- you know, your story has changed and she`s not telling the truth? And he look at you like a deer in headlights. That is just crazy, and it`s getting worse.
GRACE: Put Giudice up.
GIUDICE: I`m right here.
GRACE: I`m still waiting, Elizabeth. Still don`t see him. You push the button.
GIUDICE: I`m right here.
GRACE: OK. Ray, I asked you about why Misty Croslin is concerned her phone is tapped...
GIUDICE: They shouldn`t be.
GRACE: ... and you attacked Ronald Cummings.
GIUDICE: No, I`m saying in the context...
GRACE: Please try your best to keep...
GIUDICE: I will.
GRACE: ... in the middle of the road tonight, OK?
GIUDICE: OK. Listen...
GRACE: Try!
GIUDICE: ... both of these people, including Misty in that comment, are off the reservation. They`re not helping their lawyers. They`re not helping themselves. And they shouldn`t have any concerns. That`s my point. In the picture, these people are arguing against their own best interests.
GRACE: Well, if that`s what you have to say, I`m not hiring you as my defense attorney!
GIUDICE: OK, Nancy.
GRACE: What about it, Mullin?
KATHLEEN MULLIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Listen, Nancy, I think there are a lot of reasons why they might not want to take their cell phones to be traced. When I come on your show, I get hate mail. So there`s a very good reason why these folks who are being accused of being involved...
GRACE: And let me ask you something...
MULLIN: ... in this disappearance might (INAUDIBLE)
GRACE: Do you really care? Do you really care, Kathleen...
MULLIN: Do I?
GRACE: ... if some nutjob writes you, Oh, you`re a bad lawyer? Who cares!
MULLIN: Nancy, I don`t care, but if I were the 17-year-old stepmother who is the focus of this investigation, I might care. I might be in danger, and so might her father, the baby`s father.
GRACE: OK, hold on, everybody. We`re going to get to Jennifer Smetters and special guest Mark Nejame joining us right now. But I want you to hear it from her own mouth. Take a listen to what Misty Croslin, the last known person to see this child alive, had to say today, when the dust settled, about flunking a polygraph.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: He called the phone and said that, I`m going to take -- I`m going to take you to Orlando to get you away because your days are numbered. And I was, like, OK. I didn`t know what to say to him.
When I showed up there, they told me I was taking a polygraph. And I was, like, OK.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you at any point say, I don`t want to do this?
CROSLIN: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
CROSLIN: Because I thought I was helping. I was trying to do everything I can to find Haleigh. Anything for Haleigh, I`ll do.
He told me that if I didn`t take them tests that he wasn`t going to look for Haleigh. And that`s why I took them tests because I don`t want no one to stop looking for Haleigh.
If they go out and look for the right person, maybe they -- they would be -- have the answers, but they`re trying to get all the answers from me that I don`t have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: At 3:00 o`clock in the morning, I got up. And I got up because I had to use the bathroom. I seen the kitchen light on, and I walked in the kitchen and the back door`s wide open. And I go in her room, and she`s gone!
CUMMINGS: It had nothing to do with her, man. She can`t help that. She can`t help she was the last one to see her.
CROSLIN: She didn`t make no noise that night. I would have woke up if I heard any noise, and I didn`t hear anything at all. I mean, I was really exhausted that day, you know? I just wish they would have took me instead of her! What do they want with a little 5-year-old?
CUMMINGS: Could have been any one of -- any one of us and our children. Any one. Nobody knows where there`s a psycho or sicko. Nobody knows.
CROSLIN: She is scared of the dark. She did not go anywhere by herself.
I did take a polygraph. I mean, my understanding is that I passed it.
CUMMINGS: I want to let everyone know that I`m not hiding anything for anybody. And if somebody had something to do with it, so be it. Whoever it might be, that`s who -- that`s who it is. Let`s bring Haleigh home.
CROSLIN: He called the phone and said that, I`m going to take -- I`m going to take you to Orlando to get you away because your days are numbered. And I was, like, OK. I didn`t know what to say to him.
He told me that if I didn`t take them tests that he wasn`t going to look for Haleigh. And that`s why I took them tests because I don`t want no one to stop looking for Haleigh.
If they go out and look for the right person, maybe they -- they would be -- have the answers, but they`re trying to get all the answers from me that I don`t have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: We are talking your calls live. Not only does Misty Croslin say she was tricked into flunking the polygraph, she also says -- she insists that she passed it. Well, last night, we had the polygrapher on with us, who says she flunked, it was a whopper, up to 99 percent deceptive.
Out to the lines. Judy, Ohio. Hi, Judy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. Thanks for taking my call tonight.
GRACE: Yes, ma`am. Thank you for calling in. What`s your question, dear?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, I`m curious, she`s changed her story now, the way I understand, that she vaguely remembers probably about four people being at the trailer that night. How does this now tie into her original story that she put Haleigh down at 8:00, she went to bed around 10:30, went to sleep and woke up at 3:00? I don`t understand how she will explain that.
GRACE: Well, Judy, you and me both! To Natisha Lance. They don`t fit together. Judy in Ohio is right. But what is it she`s now saying about up to four people being in the home that night?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Well, Nancy, this goes to the last question that she was asked on that polygraph test, which was, Do you know who took Haleigh? And the response to that was deception. However, she only passed it by 42 percent. And the polygrapher seems to think that that is because there were several different people who were at the house that night, so she doesn`t know exactly which person is the one who may have made off with Haleigh.
GRACE: OK, Natisha, back it up for a moment. I don`t want to hear what the polygrapher thinks. I want to hear what she said. Now, we have a portion of a transcript from the polygraph testing and the voice stress testing. What did Misty Croslin say about up to four people being in the home the night Haleigh goes missing?
LANCE: She said that the details about it were foggy. She said there could have been up to four people there, but she wasn`t quite sure and she was foggy about the details.
GRACE: OK. Unleash the lawyers -- Mark Nejame, Orlando, Jennifer Smetters, Chicago, Giudice, Atlanta, Mullin, New York. Jennifer Smetters, as a former prosecutor, I always loved it when the suspect began changing the story. You know, if they don`t talk, fine. If they give a statement, it`s not incriminating, fine. But when you give stories that change, that`s a problem.
JENNIFER SMETTERS, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Absolutely. She is her own worst enemy right now. To have one version of the story right after this child is missing, and now to have a whole other version of the story after the polygraph was administered -- I find this highly suspicious. I think she...
GRACE: It`s a problem, Jennifer. It`s a problem.
SMETTERS: Absolutely.
GRACE: OK...
(CROSSTALK)
SMETTERS: ... and nobody believes her.
GRACE: And joining me tonight, Mark Nejame. You all, I`m sure, are familiar with Mr. Nejame. He is the attorney for Tim Miller out of Texas Equusearch and a renowned attorney in his neck of the woods, Orlando. Mark, is it true that Ronald Cummings revealed to you or around you, in your presence, that he did not believe Croslin`s story?
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I think that Mr. Cummings has made it pretty clear that he wants the focus on getting Haleigh back, and with that, he`s made it real clear that he didn`t give a -- a damn who that might impact. So he`s been real clear about that.
GRACE: Yes. He told me that last night in a live interview, taking calls. But did he reveal to you or to anyone in your knowledge that he does not buy Croslin`s story?
NEJAME: We had some discussions about it, but at this time, I`m really, really not wanting to get into what he specifically said.
GRACE: OK. OK. I understand. I understand. I want to hear more of what Misty Croslin had to say. We have her on tape. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: If I have something, she wants it. So if we buy something for me, we buy the same thing for her. Our shoes -- me and Haleigh have the same pair of shoes. She wanted me to have (INAUDIBLE) Jordans (ph) just like hers. So me and her are, like, pretty much -- we try to do everything together.
I just want everybody to know that I was home because I did pass my lie detector test saying that I was home.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They told you you passed?
CROSLIN: Yes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CROSLIN: He called the phone and said that, I`m going to take -- I`m going to take you to Orlando to get you away because your days are numbered. And I was, like, OK. I didn`t know what to say to him.
He told me that if I didn`t take them tests that he wasn`t going to look for Haleigh. And that`s why I took them tests because I don`t want no one to stop looking for Haleigh.
If they go out and look for the right person, maybe they -- they would be -- have the answers, but they`re trying to get all the answers from me that I don`t have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight out to the lines. Sandy in Michigan. Hi, Sandy.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear. What`s your question?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I just want to tell you very quickly you`re a superior, lovely person. Thank you for all you do for everyone, and God bless you and your family and your twins.
GRACE: Sandy, thank you.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My question is...
GRACE: Thank you for that. That`s -- I really appreciate that.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, you deserve it. My question is, and it may be a little bit late now, but is there a possibility that Misty could have been under the influence of drugs and alcohol that evening? And I ask this question because sometimes people have night jitters and they get up and walk in their sleep and they don`t recall, you know, any of that. And I`m wondering if that`s a possibility.
GRACE: But hold on. Before you let Sandy go, what`s the rest of the story? Say she is or was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. What does that -- what are you asking? What do you believe that had to do with Haleigh`s disappearance?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that fogging her memory?
GRACE: I`m sorry. I can`t...
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Is that fogging...
GRACE: ... hear you. Repeat?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: ... her memory?
GRACE: Oh, is it clouding her memory? Well, the simple answer is yes, of course, there`s a possibility she was under the influence of drugs or alcohol. We don`t have any proof of it. She was not given a blood or urine test. But of course, it`s a possibility. But it would never be a defense. Voluntary use of drugs or alcohol, never a defense under the law. But as far as clouding her memory to where she can`t remember what happened, yes, it`s a possibility.
Let`s hear from Marc Klaas, founder of Klaas Kids Foundation. What do you make of her saying she was tricked, that she actually passed, and that, long story short, she`s afraid people are listening in on her phone conversations?
MARC KLAAS, KLAAS KIDS FOUNDATION: Well, I continue to maintain that the whole Tim Miller polygraph episode was...
GRACE: I got to ask you something.
KLAAS: ... should never have happened.
GRACE: Marc, I got to ask you something. Why are you more concerned about who should have given her a polygraph, as opposed to she flunked a polygraph the night the child goes missing?
KLAAS: Well, I`m getting to that. I mean, that`s just...
GRACE: Well, every night...
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: Every time I ask you, you talk about Tim Miller. I don`t care if she was tricked into the poly. I care that she flunked the poly!
KLAAS: Nancy, until -- she`s really compromised herself at this point, and I agree that she should probably start listening to her lawyer. Until she takes the authorities to Haleigh, whatever that means, nothing she says can be believed or trusted.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Ronald and Misty Cummings say they hoped Tim Miller of Texas EquuSearch was going to help them find missing Haleigh Cummings, but instead they claimed he took them out of town and torched them.
MISTY CUMMINGS, RONALD CUMMING`S WIFE, LAST SEEN HALEIGH: He called the phone and said that I`m going to take -- I`m going to take you to Orlando to get you away because your days are numbered. And I was like, OK, I didn`t know what to say to him.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Miller says he only offered to take them away from the stresses in Putnam County.
TIM MILLER, DIRECTOR, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: I asked if they wanted to get away for a couple of days just to get away, let their heads clear out and stuff.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When leaving Putnam County Misty Cummings says she and her husband could not bring their cell phones with them.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Who told you that?
M. CUMMINGS: Tim Miller.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And did you ask why?
M. CUMMINGS: No.
MILLER: No. That`s false. Ronald was afraid to talk on the cell phone because he -- Ronald said that -- his phone was tapped, Misty`s phone was tapped, everybody`s phone was probably tapped.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Miller did purchase prepaid phones for them so they could reach him and family. While in Orlando for three days and two night, Miller says Misty Cummings wanted to take a polygraph test. Misty says she did not ask to take it.
M. CUMMINGS: (INAUDIBLE) to take a polygraph. (INAUDIBLE)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Did you, at any point, said I don`t want to do this?
M. CUMMINGS: No.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why?
M. CUMMINGS: Because I was helping. I try and do everything I can to find Haleigh. Anything for Haleigh, I`ll do.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Misty Cummings says she later felt pressured by Miller to take a voice analysis test and undergo hypnosis.
M. CUMMINGS: He told me that if I didn`t take some testing, he wasn`t going to look for Haleigh. And that`s why I took those tests because I don`t want no one to stop looking for Haleigh.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But Miller says she begged him to take those tests and the hypnosis was her idea. Misty`s attorney feels Orlando based attorney, Mark Nejame, was behind the test and should not have been interfering with his client.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If there`s an ethical obligation that was there and it was possibly breached, it would have been on Mr. Nejame. Again, I wasn`t there, I can`t say that to be true but it -- that`s my understanding of what Misty and Ronald were saying.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: While investigators and these latest private tests indicates Misty is withholding vital information, Ronald stands by his wife.
RONALD CUMMINGS, FATHER OF MISSING 5-YR-OLD HALEIGH CUMMINGS: My feelings are we need to find my daughter.
UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: OK. Do you think Misty holds some information that could help do that?
R. CUMMINGS: I don`t think that she holds any information that`s going to find Haleigh.
M. CUMMINGS: If they go out and look for the right person, maybe they would be -- have the answer, but they`re trying to get all the answers from me that I don`t have.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
NANCY GRACE, HOST: We are taking your calls live. Out to Mark Nejame, the attorney for Tim Miller, who set up the polygraph.
I`m not clear why everyone is attacking Miller about this. And I think it`s perfectly within his rights because every investigation, Mr. Mark Nejame, starts close to home of the victim. You start there. You move out.
He`s perfectly within his rights to say, look, I`m spending my time, my labor, my money to help you find Haleigh, and I`m not going to start searching until you take a polygraph. There`s absolutely nothing wrong with Tim Miller saying that to Misty Croslin.
MARK NEJAME, ATTORNEY FOR TIM MILLER, TEXAS EQUUSEARCH: Without question, Nancy. They wanted the polygraph. And for anybody to suggest that he coerced them or tricked them, the voice stress and hypnosis were done in Satsuma at Ron`s family`s home. So they wanted it voluntarily done elsewhere for further test.
She wanted to clear her name and we can`t help what the results are. There is no trickery involved. This was an attempt to get to the bottom of it, she wanted it, she got it, but she didn`t like the answers, nothing we can do about that.
GRACE: To Ron Shindel, former NYPD deputy inspector. Ron, here`s the deal. People may not like it but there`s nothing wrong, even with trickery, under our Constitution.
There have been many cases where, for instance, you send out a notice to everybody that has jumped bail, and you say you`ve won a colored TV. All right? Come here to claim it. They come, they all show up, they round them up and thrown in the pokey.
There`s absolutely nothing wrong unless your constitutional rights are violated by the state, Tim Miller is not the state, with trickery. There`s nothing wrong with what he did.
RON SHINDEL, FMR. NYPD DEPUTY INSPECTOR: Nancy, I don`t see any trickery here. By the way, that bail trick is always one of my favorites. But I don`t see any trickery here.
I mean this is a private entity. What he`s trying to do is ascertain if possible clients and people he`s going to deal with are actually telling the truth. This is a good business case and a good business sense here by him.
GRACE: To Ellyn Gamberg, psychotherapist joining us out of New York. Ellyn, thank you for being with us. I repeatedly noticed that Misty Croslin refers to the child, Haleigh Cummings, as "that little girl." I don`t know. I`m befuddled by that. What does that say to you if anything? Maybe I`m making too much of it.
ELLYN GAMBERG, PSYCHOTHERAPIST: Nancy, when you talk about "that girl" that`s a detached statement. One that shows very little emotional connection. Almost one that has an anger to it as if you were scolding a child and referring to "that child."
GRACE: We are taking your calls live. To Julie in Kentucky, hi, Julie.
JULIE, CALLER FROM KENTUCKY: Hi.
GRACE: What`s your question, dear?
JULIE: I just want to say that I watch your show every night and I love it.
GRACE: Thank you, Julie in Kentucky.
JULIE: My question is that I don`t understand why she has so many consistencies with her story. What in the world would possess him to marry her?
GRACE: Well..
JULIE: Is he trying to cover something for her? Is he trying to help her?
GRACE: Well, I can tell you this much. Many people think that if you marry then you can`t testify against each other, which is typically true, but in Florida, they have an exception to the husband-wife privilege. If a -- harm to a child is the criminal charge, there is no husband-wife privilege. So if that was your motivation, it failed miserably.
And I want to follow up on something. To Mark Nejame, in her story, at some point, she says up to four people were in the home that night. That`s an entirely new story. Who were the four people?
NEJAME: Can`t answer that. All that I know is that.
GRACE: Do you know -- you won`t answer or you don`t know?
NEJAME: No, I don`t know. I can tell you, though, if I could relate real quick back to what her lawyer has said. We were told with witnesses that she did not have a lawyer. So for her to now maintained that she had a lawyer, and we knew that she had a lawyer, absolutely untrue.
GRACE: Mr. Nejame, you are an expert in the law. Let`s bring in the other lawyers, as are all of you. Smetters, Giudice, Mullin.
It doesn`t matter -- and I`ll just only say this one more time. If he did trick her, because he`s not the state. He`s not the police, he`s not the prosecutor -- she was talking to a lay person, Ray Giudice, so it doesn`t matter.
The constitution does not protect you.
RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You`re absolutely right, Nancy.
GRACE: . from a lay person. You`re only protected from the power of the state.
GIUDICE: You`re absolutely right and Mr. Miller is well too counseled by Mr. Nejame to do anything illegal or trickery. We -- I would admit that. The only thing I would say, it`s interesting that these folks, Mr. Miller, and his staff may now wind up as fact witnesses in a prosecution if they actually heard statements that you were trying to ask about earlier.
GRACE: Well, I doubt pretty seriously that any of them are afraid to take the oath.
GIUDICE: I understand.
GRACE: And take the witness stand, so I don`t think that`s scaring them away.
To Gayle in Virginia, hi, Gayle.
GAYLE, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi, Nancy. How are you?
GRACE: I`m good, dear.
GAYLE: Please, please tell me under the grace of God that the little boy is in protective custody. The little boy Junior?
GRACE: Natisha Lance, where is Ronald Jr.?
NATISHA LANCE, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: Now Ronald Jr. is still under the custody of Ronald Cummings, his father, and he has shared custody with Crystal Sheffield, the mother.
GRACE: Let`s go over what we know right now, T.J. Hart. We know that apparently police are close to an arrest. We know that Misty Croslin`s statements suggest that up to four people were in the home that evening.
T.J. Hart, do you have any idea who she claims these people were?
T.J. HART, PROGRAM & NEWS DIR., WSKY 97.3FM (via phone): I do have an audio tape that I received but I sent it on to LE. I`m not going to comment on it? I can tell you that the inconsistencies further abound. And this coming from Tim Miller today about Misty Cummings saying that she put Haleigh to bed that night at 8:00, went to sleep at 10:00.
Miller now says that Ronald is not buying her story. We heard that differently last night right here on the show. Miller is saying that, according to Ron, she had never slept in that bed that night. That bed was still made. Nobody has been in that bed. And now -- and she is also, speaking of that thing, no, I`ve been in that bed. It would have been made if someone was -- wait a minute, I was sleeping in there. But she wasn`t. And Ron is not buying the story according to Tim Miller.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
M. CUMMINGS: He called on the phone and said that I`m going to take you to Orlando to get you away because your days are numbered. And I was like, OK, and I don`t know what to say to him.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 26-year-old Asuncion Villa is charged with murder. Police were called into her apartment on (INAUDIBLE) Avenue Monday afternoon when she called 911 claiming her 5-week-old was missing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One of my ex-boyfriends came to pick up one of my sons. He said he was going to take him out to show him to some of his friends. And he hasn`t come back yet.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now police saying that was a lie. As they investigated last night, Villa became a suspect in the disappearance. The police found the baby boy dead in a plastic bag, in a trashcan behind her apartment.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Cops say Villa later admitted to grabbing the baby by the face with both hands and shaking him. Villa has pled not guilty to all charges including aggravated murder and gross abuse of a corpse. Prosecutors say they will seek the death penalty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Straight to Jack Crumley, anchor, Newsradio 700 WLW. What happened?
JACK CRUMLEY, ANCHOR, 700 WLW RADIO (via phone): Hi, Nancy. Yes. Really horrible story out of Hamilton, Ohio. The mother, Asuncion Avila- Villa, reported to police that her baby was missing, a 5-week-old son. She said that an ex-boyfriend took him. When police showed up, they got the feeling that something wasn`t adding up, and eventually they found the child`s body in the garbage can near the apartment.
GRACE: To Matt Zarrell, what more can you tell me?
MATT ZARRELL, NANCY GRACE STAFFER, COVERING STORY: The baby suffered a skull fracture, a collapsed skull. Apparently the skull had been swooshed. The baby also had a broken arm and was a low weight. Only 9 pounds.
GRACE: Nine pounds. To Dr. Gerald Feigin, medical examiner, Camden County, joining us out of Philadelphia.
Dr. Feigin, thank you for being with us. Nine pounds at 5 weeks? What does that say to you?
DR. GERALD FEIGIN, M.D., MEDICAL EXAMINER FOR CAMDEN COUNTY: Well, you have to be careful. You have to see if the size of the parent, and there`s anemogram you can look where the child falls, above or below what percentile. But if the parents are small, the child can be small, too. So it`s hard to say without looking at the whole picture.
GRACE: Well, this is what I know. OK? Lucy was -- Lucy and John David were premature. Lucy was 2 pounds. John David was 5 pounds. And 9 pounds at five weeks doesn`t sound right to me. Of course that`s anecdotal.
Let me ask you this, Dr. Feigin, at five weeks, is the head of a child still soft?
FEIGIN: You have a spot called the fontanel but the thickness of the skull is minimal and it`s easily fractured with not a whole lot of force.
GRACE: So let me get this straight, Jack Crumley. He`s joining us from Newsradio 700 WLW.
Jack.
CRUMLEY: Yes.
GRACE: So the mom tried to direct police to who she says is the baby`s father, saying the dad came to visit the baby and took him and never came back. Then they find the baby dead, 5-week-old baby boy, and the motive behind the murder is what?
CRUMLEY: Well, that`s where the story took a turn. When word of the indictment got out, Miss Avila-Villa is now accused of killing the child to try and cover up her relationship with the little boy`s actually father who is an underage boy, somewhere in the age of between 13 and 16.
GRACE: So murder -- motive for murder is to conceal the crime of underage sex. The bio-dad is a child himself.
To Kristi in Illinois, hi, Kristi.
KRISTI, CALLER FROM ILLINOIS: Hi. I watch your show every night. You are a beautiful person and beautiful mother. I have a question about this lady. How did they find out that she was the one that killed the bay? Did somebody see her dump the body or was it the person that she actually sent them to that told them?
GRACE: OK. To Jack Crumley, how did they pin it on mommy?
CRUMLEY: They did question the ex-boyfriend who she claimed stole the child but eventually, as police were questioning her, she finally just admitted that the little boy was in a bouncy seat, had been crying for an extended period of time and she got very upset.
Police confiscated all the trash that was near the apartment. Took it back to the police station and they found it there after they obtained a search warrant.
GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Jennifer Smetters, Raymond Giudice, Kathleen Mullin.
Ray Giudice, what do you make of this motive for murder? In all my years of prosecuting, I`ve seen plenty of crimes on children. Women and children are typically the crime victims. But to cover up your own child molestation, sex with a little boy, a minor?
GIUDICE: It`s just heinous, Nancy. And in all candor, as we watch older men have sex with teenage and don`t get punished, it`s such an incredible overreaction and obviously the most overreaction anyone can do.
GRACE: You know you really hit the nail on the head. No punishment. One adult after the next.
GIUDICE: After another, right.
GRACE: Having underage sex with little boys, nothing happens. They get -- a slap on the wrist and off they march.
GIUDICE: Yes, that fear of hers is just not true. (INAUDIBLE) happens.
GRACE: Not just sick, Kathleen Mullen, I am sick. I always hate it, crimes on children, like everybody, I`m no different from everybody, but now that I have the twins, and they are so helpless, they are so relying on me all day, every day, all night, every night, except when I`m right here. And the one person they turn to to protect them is mommy.
KATHLEEN MULLIN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, as a lawyer who has represented the mother of a murdered child, they are horrifying cases no matter where you sit in that courtroom, be you the judge, be you the juror, be you anyone else in that courtroom. They`re horrifying cases.
But, Nancy, the overreaction here is on the part of the prosecutor`s office. There isn`t one shred of.
GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa, wait.
MULLIN: . evidence to support that motive.
GRACE: Put her -- put her on the screen. Oh really?
MULLIN: There isn`t one shred.
GRACE: Hold on. Hold on just a moment. Before I go to Smetters, Matt Zarrell, isn`t it true that she was seeking public assistance? They would have to name the bio-dad?
ZARRELL: Yes, exactly. The only way she was going to get government funding.
GRACE: You know I asked you earlier, what more could you tell me, and you didn`t tell me this.
ZARRELL: Well, apparently, she needed to get government funding. The only way she could do that is identify the paternity -- identify who the father was and then may seek custody from this father. Now they haven`t officially determined that this boy is the father.
GRACE: They could seek custody from the father?
ZARRELL: They could.
(CROSSTALK)
GRACE: You mean child support?
ZARRELL: Yes, child support. I`m sorry. Yes. They could seek child support
GRACE: Got it.
ZARRELL: Now apparently they haven`t officially determined that he is the father but they`re doing DNA testing right now.
GRACE: Everyone, we are taking your calls live. We`ll be back with the shrink, Ellyn Gamberg, boy, do we need one, and Jennifer Smetters, Marc Klaas and Ron Shindel, and your phone calls.
The verdict is in. The iReport winner of our show`s "Number One Fan" contest tonight is Maryland friend, Paulie. She never misses a show. In fact her friends and family refused to interrupt. She`s even given up her dance lessons so she wouldn`t miss a single night. She`s not the only one watching at home. Her two.
(LAUGHTER)
Her two dogs never miss a show. We love your, oh yes, yes. She may need to take those dance lessons. We love our canine viewers. Congratulations, Paulie. You win a copy of our "New York Times" best- seller, "Eleventh Victim."
Oh friend, you have brightened my day. Thank you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was calling because last night, one of my ex- boyfriends came to pick up one of my sons. He said he was going to take him out to show him to some of his friends. And he hasn`t come back yet. This is last night.
911 OPERATOR: He has your son, you`re saying, with him?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes. He has my son and I haven`t seen since last night.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GRACE: Marc Klaas from KlaasKids Foundation, what do you make of it?
MARC KLAAS, PRESIDENT AND FOUNDER, KLAASKIDS FOUNDATION: Well, you know, before Aileen Wuornos we didn`t even realize a woman could be psychopaths. Before Mary Kay Letourneau, we didn`t even realize that women could be pedophiles. Since then there`s been a whole bevy of gals that have demonstrated that through the use of their position or power they have molested young boys.
Then we get Melissa Huckaby, which almost marries the two together. It`s a psychopathic pedophile who murders somebody else`s child. And now we have this woman who murders her own child. This is an evolving trend that seems to be more animalistic than human.
GRACE: To Ellyn Gamberg, psychotherapist out of New York. Ellyn, what is the psychological profile of someone that crushes a child`s skull as opposed to a, quote, "soft kill," such as smothering him?
GAMBERG: Nancy, this woman is obviously psychopathic. And her profile was one of an angry, violent crime. And I`m not so sure that it was just to hide and -- the age of the father. I think there had to be a lot of other issues. This is not a stellar mom.
GRACE: Good thought.
GAMBERG: . who takes a child.
GRACE: What about it, Jennifer Smetters?
JENNIFER SMETTERS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Yes, I agree with the doctor 100 percent. I feel for the three other children that she has in her possession. What have these children have to go through knowing that mom is a sex offender? Knowing that she could kill a newborn baby? It`s very sad.
GRACE: Everyone, we`ll pick up the story, but let`s stop to remember Army Specialist Sean Mickey McDonald, 21, Rosemount, Minnesota, killed Iraq. Awarded the Bronze Star and Purple Heart. Dual citizen of U.S. and Netherlands. Chose to become an American soldier.
Dreamed of moving to Minnesota. Loved basketball, soccer, video games and iPod. Playing with his two nieces. Leaves behind parents Russell and Marlene, sister Jessica, grandfather Ronald.
Sean McDonald, American hero.
Thanks to our guests but especially to you for being with us. I`ll see you tomorrow night, 8:00 sharp Eastern and until then, good night, friend.
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