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ANDERSON COOPER 360 DEGREES
Victim or Monster?; Health Care Deal?; Fight for Afghanistan; Chris Brown Breaks his Silence; Kidneys for Sale; Michael Jackson Funeral
Aired September 2, 2009 - 23:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
ANDERSON COOPER, CNN HOST: Tonight, a chance to weigh in on what you've just seen. Do you buy Chris Brown's apology and explanation for what he did to Rihanna?
We'll be taking your questions and talking with Denise Brown, sister of Nicole Brown Simpson who has dedicated her life to the victims of abuse. That is coming up.
But first, a new development that is bound to rock the case against Jaycee Dugard's alleged captors and a sobering question about the neighborhood where she was held for 18 long years. Has it become a magnet for sex offenders?
The new development: Nancy Garrido, wife of Phillip Garrido, is showing signs she may be turning on her husband. She now appears to be saying through her attorney that she is one of the victims.
That, even though she had sole control over Jaycee back in 1993 when her husband was jailed for parole violations. It is hard to fathom, as so much of this case is.
Here again with the latest, Dan Simon at the Garrido house -- Dan.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, Nancy Garrido's attorney made the rounds on all the morning shows today and said something that might surprise a lot of people.
He said that she misses the two children fathered by Phillip Garrido with the victim and that she considered all of them as family.
He also seems to be providing the frame work for some kind of defense; he used the word "victim" when describing her. He also said that she seemed or at least suggested that she was powerless to do anything about it; do anything about what was happening in this house behind me.
This is how he characterized her state of mind. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GILBERT MAINES, ATTORNEY FOR NANCY GARRIDO: When I talked to her, I would say that she was distraught, frightened, appeared to be a little lost. I would describe her like a ship without a rudder. She was -- she's concerned.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SIMON: Well, the district attorney dispatched a former federal prosecutor to provide some background on case law, Greg Scott serving, sort of as a spokesperson for the D.A. to handle all of the media requests. He explained why prosecutors believe that Nancy Garrido is equally culpable.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MCGREGOR SCOTT, FORMER FEDERAL PROSECUTOR: Obviously, in a physical sense, the woman cannot rape another woman, a child, a girl. But she can, in a criminal sense, assist, facilitate, make that rape possible.
And I don't want to get into the particulars of what her conduct may have been, but if she was aiding and abetting, if she was assisting in his abduction and then subsequent rapes of the young girl, then she is criminally culpable for those acts.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
COOPER: Dan, you spent a lot of time in that neighborhood. It seems that Garrido had a lot of company. A lot of sex offenders live there, it turns out.
SIMON: Yes, there are a ton of sex offenders in this area. As a matter of fact, if you we're to go to a sex offender registry data base and typed in the zip code of this area, you would see about 100 different names. And authorities confirm it's a very high number for this region.
As a matter of fact, just within walking distance from where I'm standing, there are four sex offenders. Experts say the reasons people come out here, it's because it's isolated and also, the laws. Laws that prevent sex offenders from going near children, such as schools, churches and parks.
So that's another dimension to this story, that apparently a lot of sex offenders living here in this region of Antioch.
COOPER: And it never ceases to amaze one. Dan thanks for that.
101 in the Garrido's neighborhood, about 1,700 in the county; one official at the local sheriff's department telling the "L.A. Times" his station has got about 350 offenders to watch, but get this only a single deputy to do it.
Just one of the mind-boggling facts coming to light as we look at a photo of the Garridos back in 1988, that's when they were newly- weds. Phillip Garrido just out of prison with the woman who now seems to be claiming victimhood and kinship with the kids.
Let's "Dig Deeper" now with legal analyst Lisa Bloom, also Stanford criminologist Joan Petersilia, a former special advisor of the California Department of Corrections.
Lisa, can Nancy Garrido be characterized as a victim or an accomplice; and would calling herself a victim be a viable legal defense?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's certainly the only defense that she's got. I mean, she's caught red-handed along with Phillip Garrido and having all of those kids in the house and Jaycee Dugard clearly was kidnapped 18 years ago at the age of 11.
So all that the attorney can claim is that she's mentally ill. But so far we haven't heard enough to give rise to the insanity defense.
That's a very high legal standard, Anderson. That's a standard that she could not conform her conduct to the law, that she had a mental illness that was so bad she didn't know right from wrong.
Well, given the elaborate labyrinth in the back of the house and the scheme that went on day after day for 18 years to keep these children hidden from everybody else, I think it would be very hard for her attorney to argue that she was incapable of conforming her conduct to the law. I think that's really going to be a stretch at trial.
COOPER: Yes and Joan, the perception is the sexual predators act alone. But here Nancy Garrido was allegedly committing these crimes with her husband, even playing the role of primary captor when her husband was in jail. How unusual is that?
JOAN PETERSILIA, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, it's quite unusual actually for men to act in concert with men, but it's not that unusual for sexual predators as disturbed as this man to actually take a wife or some other accomplice -- a female accomplice, victimize them and then have them become part of the overall crime. So that isn't that unusual.
COOPER: Is her argument, you think, of being a victim in this made weaker by the fact that she married this guy when he was already in prison for a rape that he committed?
PETERSILIA: Well, certainly. She cannot argue ignorance of his criminal past or his proclivitations (ph). She met him actually while she was visiting prison. So they have a history of a criminal past together.
And I think the fact that she -- she moved out there with him, she clearly knew that he was being drug tested, he was registering as a sex offender, he was on parole.
He didn't have the condition of not associating with children, however, as part of his parole. And I think that's what people sometimes don't understand. His prior crimes did not involve children.
So the parole agents were really not looking out for children, and when he told them that in fact these were his children, it kind of made sense. He had the wife, he had the children. And you know, part of what you spoke about at the start is kind of how sex offenders are having to move out to these very kind of rural areas.
COOPER: Yes and I want to get to more of that in just a second.
We've got to take a quick break; Lisa and Joan stay with us. We're going to talk to your right after the break.
You can also join the live chat as well right now at AC360.com. I'm about to log on myself.
Just ahead, we also had breaking news on health care. What is President Obama willing to give up to pass health reform? Is he ready to ditch what many consider the center piece of it? We've got breaking news tonight on that.
Also, you heard what Chris Brown told Larry King what he did to Rihanna. You've seen the shocking photos of her injuries. Do you buy his apology? Did he say enough?
Text us your questions for Nicole Simpson's -- Nicole Simpson's sister Denise and Faye Wattleton to AC360 or 22360. As always, of course, standard rates apply.
COOPER: Nancy Garrido's attorney portraying his client as a victim. That may explain what Nancy Garrido is going to tell the jury when asked why she didn't let Jaycee Dugard go when she had the chance more than 15 years ago, when her husband was in prison.
We're talking brainwashing, the law and why places like the Garrido's neighborhood draws so many sex offenders.
Back with our panel: "Digging Deeper" with legal analyst, Lisa Bloom and criminologist, Joan Petersilia.
Lisa, if Nancy testifies against her husband, in theory, she could be handed a more lenient sentence. Do you expect the prosecution to go that route?
BLOOM: I don't, Anderson. And you're right. That is the way the prosecutors usually proceed if you've got two co-defendants, get one to flip against the other one. But with the level of public outrage in this case, the fact that they've caught this couple red- handed with the girls in the backyard, I mean, really I don't think there is much of a defense available.
And I think if they gave a deal to either one of these two that was anything less than life in prison, there would be such a hue and a cry they would never hear the end of it. So I don't expect them to give her any kind of a deal.
COOPER: But remember the case of Hedda Nussbaum? She was with that guy...
COOPER: ... and I mean she was...
BLOOM: Joel Steinberg.
COOPER: Right, Joel Steinberg, she ended up, I can't even remember what sentence or if she got any sentence, but she ended up basically saying she was a victim of him.
BLOOM: She did and that was a flashpoint -- it really was for a lot of people. And I mean, Joel Steinberg ended up being convicted of killing his little daughter, Lisa Steinberg.
I liken this to the Manson women, Anderson. I mean, these were young women, Susan Atkins, Leslie Van Houten, they were in a cult, they were clearly in this cult-like worship for Manson. And look at it now. Even 40 years later, they can't get parole with the argument that "I, too, was a victim."
I mean, juries and parole boards are notoriously unreceptive to that kind of an argument. If you are a grown person, you're in control of your faculties, you're expected not to harm others.
It's one thing I think for a woman like Nancy or like Hedda Nussbaum to take up with a man, we feel sorry for her, if they put themselves in an abusive relationship.
But when they expose children to danger, they fail to protect children, all bets are off and people are usually very unreceptive to the victim argument.
COOPER: Joan, why do so many sex offenders seem to be going to a place like Antioch, California? More than 100 registered sex offenders there. Why is it such a magnet?
PETERSILIA: Well, there's really three reasons. One is, that the law means they cannot live within 2,000 feet and that's about a half a mile with an elementary school, a park or any area where children congregate. So they've got to move out to these very rural areas where there are few schools, few parks.
The second reason is that this is a suburb of San Francisco. The rents are high. Sex offenders often don't have jobs. So he needed a place that was cheap. And this particular area, many, many houses are in foreclosures. The landlords are looking very much to rent to anyone, sex offenders are a great population. Most other landlords won't rent to them.
COOPER: So what more do you think needs to be done? I mean, this guy clearly slipped through the cracks. He was doing by law everything that he had to do. Talking to his parole officer, wearing this ankle bracelet; what more needs to be done?
PETERSILIA: Well, it shows that the law really cannot protect us from somebody like him.
We have 63,000 sex offenders on Megan's law. We need to get that down to about the 3,000 to 6,000 that are high-risk violent.
And then we need to do everything we possibly can: GPS, drug testing, daily visits, unannounced home visits, visits to their families. But right now none of that happens. We've just got too many people labeled sex offenders.
BLOOM: And with Phillip Garrido, he was sentenced to 50 years; if he had stayed in for even half that, none of this would have happened. He only served 20 percent of his term. There is no cure. There is no way to solve this problem except to keep offenders behind bars. There's just no other way that we know of.
But unfortunately, yes, it's expensive, yes, our prisons are overcrowded. But when talking about sex offenders, the recidivism rate is sky high.
BLOOM: I think they just have to remain behind bars.
COOPER: All right we're going to leave it there. Lisa Bloom, Joan Petersilia, thank you very much. I appreciate it, Joan.
Up next, breaking news, what President Obama might be ready to drop from a health care reform bill? Is the public option no longer an option? We're getting a late report on that.
And later, Michael Jackson finally is going to be laid to rest. The inside details of tomorrow's private ceremony.
COOPER: We have some breaking news to tell you about tonight: with President Obama getting ready to sell his health care agenda to a joint session of Congress next week, CNN has obtained what could be a key piece of his negotiating position, namely his fallback.
What he is willing to give up and as you'll see, it's a biggie.
Ed Henry and Dana Bash broke the story. Ed joins us now. Ed, what do we know?
ED HENRY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's interesting. Two sources close to the talks are telling Dana and I that the president and his top aides in the last week or so have really started having behind the scenes very intense talks with moderate Republican Senator Olympia Snowe of Maine.
And what they're talking about is trying to come together on a deal that would be much more scaled back than the President has been talking about; maybe in the neighborhood of $500 billion instead of a trillion dollars.
It would have insurance reforms, basic insurance reforms. But most importantly, drop the public option. Instead, it would what they call a trigger that basically the insurance companies would have a couple of years to institute these reforms. If they don't, the trigger would step in and all of a sudden there would be a public option -- a government-run option of health care.
The key here and the whole point of it is that if the president can get something that he can call bipartisan with even just one Republican senator, he can reach out to conservative Democrats some of the Blue Dogs we've heard so much and say look, we've dropped the public option as a first resort. You should come on board now. And he could possibly get a deal here that could work.
The problem of course, is that liberal Democrats especially in the House may be irate and feel that the President really gave away the store here to get something he could call bipartisan -- Anderson.
COOPER: And is there no way he can just do this with Democrats?
HENRY: It seems that even with Democratic-only votes it's going to be difficult. Because some of these conservative Democrats in the senate -- people like Ben Nelson, Mary Landrieu, Blanche Lincoln -- they are very concerned about the public option. They think it's an overreach right now.
And you mentioned the President is going to be giving this big speech to the joint session of Congress next Wednesday night in primetime. He's already put so much political capital into this. He's rolling the dice even more by really raising the stakes with that speech next week.
And what I'm hearing from top advisors to the President is that they realize now he's committed so much to this that he cannot afford a loss. It would be devastating to his presidency, let alone obviously to the health reform issue itself, which he considers really critical.
And so they are willing to scale this back, if they have to, so that they can call something a win and then tell the liberal Democrats look, the President has got at least a few more years in office. We can come back next year and try to finish the job. But something is better than nothing. We'll see if Liberals will accept that.
COOPER: Yes, obviously, there are probably some Republicans though, who will also cast this as a loss for the president, as a victory for them.
HENRY: They certainly will.
And I mean, when you talk to top aides to the president, they say look, that's a lot of Washington back and forth, the Republicans saying look, how many vote there were. At the end of the day people will say the president got a health reform bill.
Did he get it or not? And if he gets it and even if it just squeaks by it only gets one Republican, the White House will cast that as a victory and say look, it's better than nothing. But obviously, the president has still taken a lot of hits during this debate and a victory is still far off. It's not clear tonight at all -- Anderson.
COOPER: So it's not a done deal, this decision?
HENRY: No. Now, with Olympia Snowe, it's not a done deal but Dana and I have been hearing in the last week, it's really intensified and they feel like they may be closer to a deal.
And there's a key part there. That's because she's really the last of the so-called gang of six senators. There's three Republicans, three Democrats. She's really the last Republican in there that seems to be having an open door to the White House.
The other two Republicans have Grassley and Enzi; they have really criticized the president. They say they're still at the table, but they've been hitting the president hard. A lot of bad will there. She may be the last Republican hope -- Anderson.
COOPER: All right, Ed Henry and Dana Bash reporting as well on that. Thanks very much.
HENRY: Thank you.
COOPER: Coming up, Chris Brown in his own words. Why he beat former girlfriend Rihanna. Well, at least what he would say about it, which wasn't much. Will he hit her again? All of those comments.
Denise Brown, sister of Nicole Brown Simpson weighs in.
First Erica Hill joins us with a "360 News and Business Bulletin" -- Erica.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, firefighters continue to battle the giant blaze ravaging southern California tonight while investigators work to determine the cause. With the wildfire now 22 percent contained, officials did rule today the fire was manmade. Whether or not it was started accidentally or if this is a case of arson is still unknown.
Since erupting last week, that fire has destroyed more than five dozen homes, killed two fire-fighters and forced thousands to flee from their homes.
"The New York Times" tonight releasing portions of Senator Ted Kennedy's posthumous memoir "True Compass." It is scheduled for release September 14th, but in the excerpts, the senator writes of being haunted by the 1969 car accident that killed a Mary Joe Kopechne, calling his actions inexcusable.
He also endorses the Warren Commission's Findings in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy, writing he was quote, "satisfied then, and satisfied now." Senator Kennedy who of course died last week is now buried near his two brothers at Arlington National Cemetery. An internal report out today faults the SEC for failing to detect Bernard Madoff's multi-billion dollar Ponzi scheme. The commission's inspector general cites quote, "More than ample evidence, including six complaints some dating to 1992, that should have alerted investigators." Madoff was convicted of fraud and sentenced to 150 years in June.
And Diane Sawyer will replace ABC World News anchor, Charlie Gibson when he retires at the end of the year. Sawyer takes the chair in January and she becomes only the second woman after CBS's Katie Couric to be the solo host of a network evening news cast. Until then, she'll continue on "Good Morning America" -- Anderson.
COOPER: And we wish her and Charlie well indeed.
Up next, Chris Brown talks to Larry King about what he did to Rihanna, sort of, didn't go into much detail. Do you buy his apology? You can judge for yourself. We'll show you what he said.
You can text us your questions as well for a woman who has devoted her life to the cause of abused spouses and girlfriends, Denise Brown, the sister of Nicole Brown Simpson. Text it to 22360; standard rates apply.
COOPER: President Obama has a new problem on the war in Afghanistan tonight -- public opinion. A new CNN Opinion Research Poll shows 57 percent against the war; that is up 11 percent from April.
And the new numbers come with the new all time high in casualties, at least 47 U.S. troops died in Afghanistan in August, making it the deadliest month since the battle began eight years ago.
Making matters worse the U.S. commander on the front line said it is time for a revised strategy, a different approach to the fighting and a majority of Americans calling for our troops to come home -- plenty of challenges for the president.
And let's talk them. Joining us now for our "Strategy Session": senior political analyst David Gergen and in Afghanistan, Michael Ware.
Michael, General Stanley McCrystal, the top U.S. commander in Afghanistan submitted a report this week assessing the situation in Afghanistan. It's not public but sources say he is calling for a change in strategy. Do you think it's going to be more troop increases, would that actually help?
MICHAEL WARE, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, certainly more troops are needed. I mean, it's very difficult for these American generals to try and fight this war with their hands tied behind their back politically.
And then we all know how sensitive troop numbers are here in Afghanistan. I mean, no one wants 68,000 troops to be here by the end of the year, let alone 80,000 or more; whatever it might take.
So no one is rushing to bring troops here. But the way America is set up to fight this battle as it stands in Afghanistan, it can't win. So some kind of change is needed, Anderson.
COOPER: David Gergen, how concerned are you about the situation on the ground there?
DAVID GERGEN, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, I'm not as concerned as those are to the people at the president's left and the Democratic Party and that poll showing 57 percent of all Americans are opposed to this.
Anderson, among Democrats, that number is 73 percent in the CNN poll. So you've got a lot of Democrats to President Obama's left who would like to pull out. There are even some conservatives like George Will who called for pulling out, pulling the plug on Afghanistan.
But the President has said this is a war of necessity. Necessity and he said during the campaign we had to win it. For him to pull the plug at this stage, just as Michael says we are already starting to change strategy under General Petraeus and General McCrystal, we are moving toward a counterinsurgency strategy.
We knew we were going to get a lot more casualties at about this time. It was all intentional to try to soften up the Taliban.
To pull the plug now I think would bring -- I think the president would get clobbered from a lot of people to his right, and the U.S. military would be really, really angry at him if he pulled the plug at this point.
COOPER: Michael, are we seeing an uptick in the casualties because the U.S. is on the offensive against the Taliban, and there's more engagements or is it also or is it and as well because the Taliban tactics are evolving, they're becoming more efficient, more deadly using IEDs, using suicide attacks?
WARE: Well, unfortunately it's both, Anderson. I mean, you've seen the Taliban here. It is an evolving enemy. It is a constantly changing insurgency, in tactics, in style and in number. I mean, that's classic guerrilla warfare.
As the conventional forces like the U.S. or the British troops do something, the Taliban sits back, watches and then formulates its response. We saw that happen with this massive offensive that's become President Obama's war in Helmand province here in southern Afghanistan.
There we're seeing a great focus of American troops, more soldiers dying than we've seen before. A lot of that happening there, focusing on one small area of a very big picture.
So it's a matter of both things unfortunately, an evolving enemy and more engagement from American troops in President Obama's war -- Anderson. COOPER: David, these stories now of widespread vote rigging in favor of President Karzai, in the recent election. That certainly does not help President Obama in terms of trying to sell this as a war of necessity.
GERGEN: That's absolutely right, Anderson. It's really added to the burden of the U.S. military, because basic to the strategy of counterinsurgency that General Petraeus had brought to this just as he brought to Iraq was that you need to get more security for the people of the country and have a central government that is trusted.
The amount of fraud in these elections could easily delegitimize the Karzai government -- and Michael knows this better than I do -- in the eyes of millions of the Afghani people and that makes it much more complicated for the U.S.
Anderson, I might add on terms of what the President may decide to do, there is a good deal of speculation right now fueled by a report in "The Los Angeles Times" that what's being considered is the idea of increasing the number of combat troops -- U.S. combat troops by 14,000 or 15,000 but then to reduce the number of American supply troops, the non-combat troops and to replace them with private contractors.
We already have more contractors there than we have soldiers. That would be a major shift in the way we do things.
COOPER: Already as you said, more contractors serving there than any previous war in U.S. history.
We got to leave it there. David Gergen thanks. And Michael Ware, stay safe.
I'll be in Afghanistan next week along with Michael Ware and 360 MD Sanjay Gupta as well as Peter Bergen to see firsthand what is going on.
Join us for a "360 IN AFGHANISTAN, LIVE FROM THE BATTLE ZONE" starting Monday September 7.
Coming up, Chris Brown in his own words, the singer speaking out in an exclusive interview about the night he attacked Rihanna, although he frankly didn't say much in the details.
We'll to Denise Brown, sister of Nicole Brown-Simpson about domestic violence. If you have a question, text it to AC360 or 22360.
Also tonight: trading organs for cash. Tonight, how one such story ended in tragedy.
COOPER: Chris Brown barely said a word when he was convicted and sentenced for assaulting his ex-girlfriend, the singer Rihanna. But tonight, Brown broke his silence, speaking to CNN in an exclusive in- depth interview. Brown was given probation on the attack on Rihanna. He repeatedly punched her head, bit her ear and threatened to kill her. Why did he do it? Is he sorry and what message does he have for his fans and Rihanna?
Brown had some surprising answers tonight and some non-answers as well. Here's Chris Brown in his own words.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST, "LARRY KING LIVE": what do you think caused you to be violent? You have to think about it. We all think about ourselves. Why did I lose my temper, why did I get angry over this?
CHRIS BROWN, R&B SINGER: I mean, if you're in a relationship, it wouldn't say it's OK. I think in -- just in relationships in general, there's chances where you lose your temper or like arguments get heated or whatever the case may be.
But that's -- I'm not saying domestic violence is a part of a relationship.
I feel like that just we're young, we're both young. Nobody taught us how to love one another. Nobody taught us a book on how to control our emotions and anger.
So, it's like I'm not trying to fall on the fact that I'm young. I'm just saying there's a lot of stuff that I wish I could have changed that night.
KING: You punched her a number of times.
KING: You threatened to beat the blank out of her. When you got home, also you said you were going to kill her. You bit her on the ear and thinking -- you hear all that..
KING: Obviously -- this is always the disparagement -- you have a lawyer here, you don't appear like a violent person.
KING: In fact, you appear rather calm, rather nice.
So what happened to you, do you think?
BROWN: Well, Larry, I'd just say -- I guess that night it was just one of the nights I wish I could just take back and I really regret and I feel totally ashamed of what I did.
KING: That never happened to you before?
KING: Later in February, you and Rihanna were photographed jet skiing and relaxing at the Miami home of Sean Diddy Combs.
How did that come about?
BROWN: It was sort of like Romeo and Juliet story, like both sides not wanting us to kind of have contact so we just got away and just wanted to -- and that's the main reason I was on the jet ski -- I know I got a lot of flack from that and other people were like, well, why is he on a jet ski, why does he just act like he had no care in the world?
Because I was rekindling my relationship with my friend.
KING: Did you rekindle it?
BROWN: At the time, yes.
KING: Did she ever say to you, why did you do that?
COOPER: That was Chris Brown. He battered Rihanna. Sadly, their case is not unique. One out of four women will be victims of domestic violence in their lifetime -- one out of four.
Denise Brown is the sister of Nicole Brown Simpson. After her sister's murder, Denise Brown became a leading activist in the fight against domestic violence. She joins us now, along with Faye Wattleton, the co-founder and president of the Center for the Advancement of Women.
Denise, I assume you watched the interview. What did you make of it? On our blog, a lot of people weighing in, saying they didn't buy his story. And he seemed unwilling to go into any kind of detail about what he actually did.
DENISE BROWN, SISTER OF NICOLE BROWN SIMPSON: You know, I really truly wish that he would have gone into some detail so he could at least explain to teenage boys how he felt, what was going through his mind, why he did that. Because we all know that people have choices.
And he chose to hit her. He chose to beat her.
And you know, it was really when I heard the mother say, you know, "I don't buy like the cycle of violence." Well, the cycle of violence is there for -- it's called the cycle of violence for a reason. And it's about power and control and it's about verbal, emotional, psychological abuse that escalates into physical violence. And then there's the honeymoon phase.
And, you know, I even found out tonight that the -- his mother was in a violent relationship, and Chris saw it when he was younger. So here you continue the cycle of violence.
And then he goes to say that, you know, "We just, you know, I don't remember."
And I just sit there and I just go, "Wait a minute. What do you mean, you don't remember? How can you not remember when you see this picture of this poor woman whose face has been so brutally, you know, beaten?" It's like how can you not remember unless you were on drugs, unless you were high as a kite, and you were totally out of it? That's the only reason I would think that you don't remember something like this.
COOPER: Faye, he repeatedly said he didn't want to talk about details out of respect for Rihanna. And he also denied in the probation report in court that was introduced that said there were two prior incidents of violence. He says he has no knowledge of them.
FAYE WATTLETON, CENTER FOR THE ADVANCEMENT OF WOMEN: Well, it's a matter of who said, you know, and what he said and what someone else said. And what...
COOPER: What did you make of him tonight on the show?
WATTLETON: What I made of him is that I think he's really very much trying to rehabilitate his image. He's been given a fairly stringent sentence. He has not been incarcerated, but he is going -- and he's paid an enormous price in his professional life for what he has done.
But I think it's really important, the point that Denise has made in terms of the cycle of violence that starts in the home. And don't forget: these are kids. They were in their late teens. We treat this situation as though it's an intimate partner situation between married couples, but they're not.
And the incident of domestic violence or inter-partner violence among adolescents is growing, and it's a really emerging epidemic about which all parents should be concerned about. In terms of how do we begin to stop the cycle of stalking with cell phones, the use of the Internet, to abuse women and to create emotional violence against young women.
COOPER: Denise, we have a "Text 360" question from a viewer, Lilibeth (ph) in Edmonds, Washington, who wants to know, besides physical abuse, what other types of abuse are there?
D. BROWN: There's verbal. There's emotional. There's psychological. There's sexual. There's financial. You know, there's -- there's, of course, the beating which everybody knows about.
But you know, victims of domestic violence that I've come in contact with over the last 15 years since Nicole was murdered, when I started talking about domestic violence, they all say that the verbal, emotional and psychological abuse is what stays with them a lifetime, because the beatings, the bruises go away.
And it's that -- those putdowns, that chipping away at someone's self-esteem that stays with them forever. They don't forget that.
COOPER: It isn't...
WATTLETON: This is a point that -- I think that's an excellent point that Denise has made. Our research at the Center for the Advancement of Women found that women said that the psychological abuse is far more damaging.
And yes, we don't, as a society, intervene until a woman has been physically abused, and usually that is at the time a homicide has been created so -- or has been perpetrated. So we really have to really elevate the bar in which society takes these situations very seriously, because they do escalate to a very tragic level.
COOPER: It's interesting, Denise. A lot of people on the blog saying this was a missed opportunity for Chris Brown. And if he's trying to rehabilitate his image, and if his lawyers thought putting him out there, this would be good for him, that it's a missed opportunity for him to kind of talk to young people. As Faye said, if violence is increasing among young couples...
D. BROWN: It is.
COOPER: ... in their teens and 20s, this seemed to have been a missed opportunity.
D. BROWN: I totally agree. I think -- I think they're absolutely right on the money.
I think what we need to do is we need to get a lot more education and a lot more awareness out there to the communities. I think that human beings -- like human life is not even worth anything anymore in our society, which is really sad.
We need to tell people -- you know, educate them that they have choices: to hit or not to hit. And, you know, this is -- this is actually, it's everybody's doing.
It's everybody in society that needs to step up to the plate and say, "Hey, domestic violence is wrong. Hitting is wrong. Verbally abusing someone is wrong." And we need to make that choice whether we're going to do it or not.
WATTLETON: And I think that also is a rule that applies to women; women being verbally and physically abusive with -- with their male partner.
SIMPSON: It applies to everybody.
WATTLETON: We're talking about human relationships, in which there should not be psychological or physical violence.
COOPER: We're going to have to leave it...
D. BROWN: Absolutely. Absolutely.
COOPER: Going to have to leave it there. Faye Wattleton, Denise Brown, always good to have you on. Thank you. Good discussion.
D. BROWN: Thanks.
COOPER: Coming up next, a 360 exclusive: kidneys for cash. You're going to meet a man who sells organs for a living, brokering dangerous deals that, as you'll see, can turn deadly.
Also tonight, Michael Jackson laid to rest, his burial tomorrow. We've got a preview tonight of the events. We'll be right back.
COOPER: Tonight, our global investigation into the selling of organs for transplant continues. Organ trafficking is about making money, no matter the cost and as you'll see, no matter the price.
Drew Griffin has the details in this exclusive report.
DREW GRIFFIN, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): In this Tel Aviv hospital room, you can see just how desperate some Israelis are for kidneys. Ricki Shai's (ph) mother is nearly unresponsive, blind, her diabetes slowly killing her. She's been on a national kidney waiting list for years.
Sitting beside her, Shai's (ph) father, Yechezekel (ph), also a diabetic, who decided not to wait for a kidney of his own and took matters into his own hands.
RICKI SHAI, PARENTS ARE DIABETICS: My father didn't want to be like my mother.
GRIFFIN: So in April, Yechezekel (ph) cut a deal with a man who buys and sells kidneys; a kidney broker who, for $100,000, promised new life.
(on camera): A broker?
SHAI: Yes a broker. He's a killer. He went to him and suggested that two -- for two days he become a new man. "Come with me, two days, pay $100,000."
GRIFFIN: Come with me?
GRIFFIN: To China?
SHAI: To China.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): Once in China, Shai (ph) says her father was taken to a rural hospital. A teenage girl was waiting there, the broker paying $5,000 for the kidney that would go to Yechezekel (ph).
The surgery went poorly. Shai (ph) captured these images on her phone of her father and what she described as a filthy hospital. The donor, Shai (ph) says, died shortly after surgery. No one knows why.
SHAI: She was 18 years. She was just a child. And I didn't understood that they give him (ph) $5,000 for her kidney. She died.
GRIFFIN: The broker has yet to face any sanctions.
Until just last year, the entire transaction was not only legal in Israel, but some state-sponsored health insurance actually pay.
Nancy Sheper-Hughes studies the organ trade and says Israel has become a sort of Ground Zero for both legal and illegal transactions. Sheper-Hughes says that as medicine mastered the science of kidney transplant, the numbers of procedures grew. But in Israel, so, too, did the belief the best way to treat kidney disease was to find a new one.
NANCY SHEPER-HUGHES, STUDIES ORGAN TRADER: There's a belief, of course, that not only is transplant better than dialysis, but that you want a living -- a living donor, because it's better than a kidney that was on ice or a kidney that was under a truck.
GRIFFIN: This Israeli kidney broker insists he operates legally, because he no longer finds kidneys for clients but lets clients find their own. But he still wants his face hidden.
He says Israelis have a phrase that they don't like to, quote, "weaken their own." So when his own mother needed a kidney, she would not even consider the one her son wanted to give her.
(on camera): Your mother, you said, she -- she wouldn't dare take a kidney from her son?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
GRIFFIN: But she would take a kidney from a person she will never know in China?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. Yes. What's so strange about that?
GRIFFIN: It says that the rich person has more of a right to their health and their life than the poor person.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is reality. This is how it happens.
GRIFFIN (voice-over): His experience, finding a kidney for his mom in China, was so easy, he went into the business himself, making $5,000 a deal. He says he has arranged for nearly 220 transplants, profiting more than $1 million.
The new Israeli law banning brokering of kidneys has made it trickier, but says if a patient arrives at his door with a donor claiming to be a relative, he can easily send them overseas, no questions asked.
(on camera): Are they really relatives?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know. I don't -- I don't care. I don't deal with that.
GRIFFIN: And in Israel, relatives are relatively easy to find, especially when you have poor emigres, recently arrived, in quick need of cash, and patients willing to pay.
Brokers can have these newly-acquainted family members on an operating table anywhere in the world within weeks.
(voice-over): Ricki Shai says in the search for a new kidney, her father lost $100,000 of borrowed money, his pride, and like his donor, is now losing his life. His new kidney is failing.
SHAI: My family is breaking.
GRIFFIN: The family is breaking. But Shai says she has no doubt the organ broker is still in business.
Drew Griffin, CNN, Tel Aviv.
COOPER: Our series on the illicit organ trade continues tomorrow night: donors, given virtually nothing for their kidneys and left with major health problems. That's tomorrow on 360.
Coming up next on the program tonight, tomorrow's funeral for Michael Jackson; we're back with a live preview from Los Angeles.
COOPER: More than two months since his death and five days after what would have been his 51st birthday, Michael Jackson will finally be laid to rest tomorrow. The service begins tomorrow night at 10 p.m. Eastern. We'll be covering it live, or as much of it as we can. It's, of course, a private ceremony.
From what we're being told, the farewell will be an extraordinary affair, and paying for it will be the Jackson estate. That's what a court ruled today.
So what should we expect? Randi Kaye is in L.A. with the details -- Randi.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Anderson, there was a hearing this morning, and Michael Jackson's estate dealers have agreed to pay for this and foot the bill. They actually didn't object to it, so they will be footing the bill for it.
But the important thing here, Anderson, is that Michael Jackson will finally be laid to rest as you said, 10 p.m. Eastern tomorrow night, a private service just for close friends and family at the Great Mausoleum at Forest Lawn Glendale Memorial Park.
Very few details coming out still at this hour, Anderson, but I can tell you that Gladys Knight will be performing at the burial service. She apparently knew Michael Jackson when he was a young boy. COOPER: Where are you going to be tomorrow night during all this?
KAYE: Well, the media won't be allowed inside, so we'll actually be outside at the main gate. I'm told these are the largest wrought iron gates in the world. There will be a production crew that will be going inside, getting video of people arriving, the friends and family.
We'll be able to share some of that with you. But we won't have any aerials for you, because it's actually a no-fly zone overhead during that burial service.
COOPER: And do we know what this mausoleum is like inside?
KAYE: We do. We have some pictures of it. It's absolutely beautiful. It has 20-foot archways, 20-foot-high archways. There's a lot of marble inside, it's 11 levels. It's full of mazes between all the crypts inside.
And Jackson's crypt is supposed to actually be right under a massive stain glass window known as the Last Supper window. There were some pictures of that on the Forest Lawn Web site.
And this is really a re-creation of Leonardo Da Vinci's masterpiece. And what's interesting here is that Michael Jackson reportedly commissioned his own Last Supper painting to hang over his bed at Neverland Ranch.
COOPER: That does not surprise me.
Randi, he's going to be inside this crypt. How private is that crypt? I mean, can anyone from the general public go and see it?
KAYE: No. It's actually a very secure mausoleum, which may be why the Jackson family decided to bury Michael Jackson there. You have to, in many areas, get a pass key to get through this mausoleum. Visitors can see the Last Supper window short film, but that's about as far as they can get.
We actually talked to a man who's been inside that mausoleum, and he said there are what he calls crypt keepers inside who keep the people who don't own property, as he put it, inside, or shouldn't be in there, they keep them out. But he said there are plenty of security cameras and plenty of guards or crypt keepers to keep the folks out. So the general public cannot get through there.
COOPER: All right. Randi, appreciate it. We'll talk to you tomorrow.
We're following some other stories tonight. Erica Hill has that in the "360 Bulletin" -- Erica.
HILL: Anderson, Hurricane Jimena slammed into the Baja Peninsula today, knocking out power and tearing off roofs, packing winds of up to 85 miles an hour. The Category 1 storm made landfall along the peninsula's sparsely-populated coasts, sparing the region's tourist hot spots. No injuries have been reported.
And yet another controversy for Donald Trump's Miss Universe pageant: in an online interview, a pageant choreographer claims the mogul personally selects seven finalists. While officials admit Trump does play a role in selecting finalists, they insist that any suggestion the pageant is rigged is, quote, "utterly false and misleading."
COOPER: Coming up, "The Shot" is next. Take a look at this thing. What is this? Not sure. Some swear it's a mythical monster that has terrorized parts of the U.S. We'll let you be the judge, ahead.
COOPER: Erica, for tonight's "Shot," it's not Big Foot, Sasquatch or the Yeti, but is it the demon known as the El Chupacabra?
HILL: Oh, no.
COOPER: I don't think it is. I think it's a dead dog. Anyway...
HILL: Poor dog.
COOPER: My producer, Charlie, who apparently earned his doctorate studying this mythic monster...
HILL: He's obsessed with the Chupacabra.
COOPER: ... he's obsessed with it -- is convinced it's the legendary goblin that roams the south, drinking the blood of goats.
A guy found this thing alive, he claims. Says it was messing around in his barn, he claims. So he killed it and kept the carcass.
So to me it seems like he killed a dog and is now passing it off as a demon.
HILL: Or he found a dead -- a dog that was already dead.
COOPER: I'm hoping he found a dog that was dead, because I'm hoping he did not kill this dog specifically so he could show it off.
HILL: That would make me very upset.
COOPER: It would make me angry, as well.
HILL: ... the Sasquatch.
COOPER: I'm not even sure why we're showing the video, because frankly, I just find the whole thing creepy.
HILL: We won't show it again.
COOPER: Charlie said it was good video. HILL: Charlie was obsessed with this.
COOPER: He's obsessed -- that's what it is.
HILL: He can't get enough.
COOPER: You have that friend who is obsessed with the yeti.
HILL: He is obsessed.
COOPER: Whatever happened to him?
HILL: My friend Scott here. He searches for Big Foot. He found some video, 1992. We have video of this. He claims he saw...
COOPER: There it is.
HILL: Not that Big Foot.
COOPER: This is his video?
HILL: Yes. He claims there's a white head. I think we have it isolated which he says he taped this in 1992.
COOPER: A white head. What?
HILL: Which is part of -- about six feet off the ground, I think he said.
COOPER: If you could squeeze that white head, some pus will come out. That's nothing.
HILL: There you go. Scott, I support you, my friend. Don't listen to AC.
COOPER: Well you had to draw in the picture.
HILL: Keep on keeping on.
COOPER: It's not a good scene.
That does it for 360. Thanks for watching.
"LARRY KING" starts now.
I'll see you tomorrow night.