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Campbell Brown
Arrest Made in Yale Murder Case; Investigating ACORN
Aired September 17, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered. An arrest in the killing of Yale grad student Annie Le, but the mystery far from solved. Who is the suspect? And why do police believe he was driven to murder?
JAMES LEWIS, NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT, POLICE CHIEF: This is not about urban crime. It's not about university crime. It's not about domestic crime, but an issue of workplace violence.
BROWN: The latest developments tonight in this bizarre Ivy League tragedy.
Plus, will the angry protests against President Obama lead to something much worse? The speaker of the House sounds the alarm.
REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: I saw this myself in the late 1970s in San Francisco. This kind of rhetoric is -- was very frightening. And it gave -- it created a climate in which we -- violence took place.
BROWN: Meanwhile, the White House trying to turn the page from stories of racism.
ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: The president does not believe that the criticism comes based on the color of his skin.
BROWN: An unavoidable subject for the first African-American president. Tonight's question, could it sidetrack his agenda?
Also tonight, our exclusive investigation, a mother who says breast-feeding cost her, her job.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: There's many women out there that have quit their jobs. They have quit their jobs. They feel like that we have any words as far as being able to pump our milk.
BROWN: Why do so many nursing moms run into trouble when they return to work? Do we need a nationwide law to protect them?
And tonight's breakout, yet another ACORN tape has surfaced, another worker caught on camera giving out advice to a pimp and a prostitute. This time, there's a twist.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hey, everybody.
Those are the big questions tonight, but we start, as we always do, with the "Mash-Up." It's our look at the stories making an impact right now, all the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all so you don't have to.
And we begin tonight with a suspect in custody, but more questions than answers in the murder of Yale grad student Annie Le.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Raymond Clark is charged with the murder of Annie Le. Police say DNA evidence links him to the crime scene, and he is being held on $3 million bail.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Clark was arrested this morning at a motel where he spent the night under heavy police watch.
LEWIS: It was not a domestic crime, which is often what we have. It was a workplace crime.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Their paths crossed at this Yale laboratory, he a technician in charge of cleaning myself cages, she a Ph.D. student. With his head bowed, ankles in shackles, 24-year-old Raymond Clark III was brought before a judge.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sources tell us there were also e-mails or text messages between Clark and Le, that Clark at one point had complained to Le about the conditions of the myself cages in the lab, that they had been left dirty. It was his job as technician to clean them.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tonight, Ray Clark is in a high-security prison. He will be back in court next month. If convicted, he could face up to life in prison.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: We're going to have a whole lot more on this troubling case coming up tonight, in addition, new details about the suspect as well.
On the international front, a big about-face tonight in American foreign policy, the White House scrapping Bush administration plans for a controversial missile shield in Poland and in the Czech Republic. The decision officially made to counter what President Obama calls new threats, namely Iran.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The Obama team says the missile threat from Iran had changed and they're adapting to it.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Bush plan was to deal with long-range missiles aimed at the United States. The Obama plan is to deal with medium-range missiles that might be able to hit Western Europe.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's more comprehensive than the previous program. It deploys capabilities that are proven and cost-effective.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Bush plan was fiercely opposed by Russia, and today many Republicans angrily accuse President Obama of capitulating one week before he meets with the Russian president in New York to discuss arms control.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But the White House insists Russia's views played no role in the decision, and the Pentagon argues this new proposal will better protect U.S. allies.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The word out of Moscow tonight, we appreciate the responsible approach of the U.S. president. That was their reaction.
Over to Afghanistan, President Hamid Karzai fending off accusations of election fraud and warning the West not to delegitimatize his victory in last month's vote.
He appeared on CNN's "SITUATION ROOM" with Wolf Blitzer. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: How can you leave Afghanistan in your own people suspect that you stole the election?
HAMID KARZAI, PRESIDENT OF AFGHANISTAN: It's not our own people that suspect that. It's, unfortunately, mainly in the international community, that these allegations are coming, and, unfortunately, also mainly through part of the international media.
In spite of that, my friend, the Afghan people turned out and voted, and I can assure you that the vote was true and fair.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Afghan authorities still investigating reports of widespread voter irregularities. The election results won't be certified until that investigation is complete.
On New York's Long Island, four young men are free tonight cleared of charges that they gang-raped an 18-year-old Hofstra University student. Police say the woman made it up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The young woman admitted that each of the encounters with the men were consensual.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Twenty-year-old Kevin Taveras and his stepbrother, 19-year-old Stalin Felipe, in red, say they had never been to jail before and never plan to go back.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were there thinking that we were going to do a long bid, 25 years, and I'm not even that old, you know? It was a scary, scary place.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The thing that they said with the rope, come on, like, that's disgusting. And that's what we were looked at, as disgusting men. And that is just not a good name to have.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Prosecutors say the woman recanted soon after they told her the incident was recorded by cell phone.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: When she was asked whether the videotape that we believed could be out there would corroborate her story, that was when she began to tell the truth.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: The woman at the center of this case now suspended from Hofstra pending university hearings.
Over to the White House now, announcing today the U.S. will share 10 percent of its swine flu vaccine with other countries. With fear on the rise, the sneeze police are on the case, today's top cop, Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius. Check out this moment. This is from the White House press room. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHLEEN SEBELIUS, U.S. HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES SECRETARY: I think that...
(LAUGHTER)
SEBELIUS: I mean, what is that about? Sheesh. Who has got some Purell? Give that to Mr. Todd right away, a little hand sanitizer. Good. Good. We will have Elmo give Chuck a special briefing. We will get Elmo over. Elmo knows how to sneeze.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Elmo, of course, the star of the administration's new public health campaign. The press room's renegade sneezer there, NBC's Chuck Todd.
Speaking of blowing hard, a first glimpse tonight of everyone's favorite dancing star, Tom DeLay, just a little taste. Check out the moves.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For the first time ever, the Republican Hammer moves to the left. Tom DeLay is dancing with the stars.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The congressman dancing through some pain these days. He suffered a stress fracture in his foot during rehearsal this week, but have no fear. DeLay tweets it will take more than that to keep him off the dance floor.
And that brings us to the "Punchline." This is courtesy of Mr. Jimmy Kimmel, a little advice for all the dads out there.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST, "JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE": This is from the Phillies game last night in Philadelphia, where a lucky fan made a pretty nice catch in the stands.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He does go after him there, and delivers a fast ball. A shot to the upper deck caught by that man right there. Nice grab.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, wow.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There it goes.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, she's only doing what she sees them do all the time.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
KIMMEL: That's what you get for teaching her how to share.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Jimmy Kimmel, everybody. My favorite moment. I love watching that tape. And that is the "Mash-Up."
New developments when we come back tonight in the murder of Yale grad student Annie Le. We will dig into the background of the suspect here, Raymond Clark, and tell you why police had him in their sights.
And breaking news to share with you also. We're just getting our first look inside the home where Jaycee Dugard was held captive for 18 years. We are going to go live to California in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Twenty-four-year-old Raymond Clark was arrested today for the murder of Yale grad student Annie Le. Very strange case. This is full of twists and turns, and Le was last seen alive on September 8 caught on a surveillance camera as she entered the lab where she worked. Her body, of course, was found inside a wall in the lab's basement on Sunday, the day she was supposed to be getting married.
Suspicion soon focused on Clark, a technician in that lab. Watch. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: They have a person of interest now in the murder of Yale university graduate student Annie Le, and they're in the process now of collecting DNA evidence from Raymond Clark, also searching his apartment to see if he is tied to the killing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The 24-year-old Raymond Clark was in police custody for about five hours last night into early this morning.
San Diego Lab tech Raymond Clark has been taken away in handcuffs, but then released, and police are saying he was never really arrested.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Just about two hours ago, 24-year-old Raymond Clark was arrested at a nearby hotel. He is a Yale university lab technician now charged with killing graduate student Annie Le.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And, today, New Haven's police chief called this a case of workplace violence. So did Yale do enough to protect Annie Le?
Joining me from New Haven, Connecticut, is CNN's Tom Foreman, who has been digging into the case, talking to folks up there. With me here in New York, senior legal analyst Jeffrey Toobin, and criminologist Casey Jordan joining us as well.
Tom, let me start with you.
There's a picture sort of emerging here of Raymond Clark, and I know you have been talking to a lot of people who know him. What are they telling you?
TOM FOREMAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Campbell, what they're really telling me that it's both a very simple picture and a very complex one.
The simple part of it is this. This is a guy that most of the people we have been able to get ahold of say up front, this is a nice guy, a friendly guy, a guy they liked, a guy who was outgoing, a guy who they had a good time with, and whom they cannot imagine would ever do anything like this.
One young woman we spoke to in Newman (ph) High School talked about how great his parents were and how involved they were with the school and how very much they thought this was a wonderful guy, and they simply cannot believe the news they're hearing.
The complex part is this. People also remember an incident in high school which was reported by a local paper here, but we talked to people who actually remembering it happening, of police coming around and asking questions because there was some sort of conflict between this guy and one of his girlfriends in high school.
And there is also a neighbor who has been in the news a little bit saying that she felt that he was very controlling of his fiancee. So, what you are getting is sort of a yin and yang here. On one side, you have people saying, great guy, nothing could possibly be wrong, and other people saying, yes, but there were signs that something might have been going on.
So, Campbell, it's a complex picture about a guy that many people saw in very straightforward, simple terms.
BROWN: All right.
Well, Casey, given what Tom just told us, what he is hearing from people who actually knew this guy, how do you interpret that?
CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: Well, the issue of control is really paramount here, and in criminology, we have power control typologies for both homicide, assault, sexual assault, and everything about this case really seemed to smack of whoever did this to Annie was really -- it was a struggle, not a physical struggle, but a struggle for control.
She's a small girl, 4'11'', 90 pounds. And no one ever really thought that it was sexually motivated, but they did agree she was a target, and everyone I talked to who knew Annie said that she was the sort of person who would never cause a scene. She was sweet. She was affable.
And at some point I wonder if Annie pushed back. Maybe he was inappropriate with her at work. Maybe he had a sexual or a romantic interest in her, but she was getting married in a few days, and maybe she lost patience, told him to leave her alone, and that's when this power control side of the suspect may have come forward.
BROWN: Well, police were pretty clear about what they think was sort of the motivating factor here. And let's listen to what the police chief said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEWIS: I think it's important to note, this is not about urban crime. It's not about university crime. It's not about domestic crime, but an issue of workplace violence, which has become a growing concern around the country.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Explain workplace violence. And then do you agree with that assessment from the police chief there?
JORDAN: Not entirely. It happened in a workplace. They knew each other in a workplace environment. And, clearly, people in a workplace are supposed to behave in certain ways. There are boundaries. There are appropriate means of interacting with our colleagues.
Now, she's a very bright girl in a Ph.D. program, and he is a lab technician, apparently with a high school education. One wonders if there was a power struggle just in terms of respect, the way they spoke to each other, the way -- their opinions on how to deal with the lab mice.
You don't know how an argument could have precipitated, but at some point -- and we may never the know the answer to this -- something happened that surely was not just a random out-of-the-blue attack. It was certainly precipitated by interaction between colleagues who worked in the same place.
BROWN: And, Jeff, I know you think you can't rule out -- one second, Tom. I think I was hearing Tom there. I'm having some trouble with my IFB.
But, Jeff, you said you can't rule out stalking, obsession as a possible factor in all of this, right?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Absolutely.
And what you need to do in a situation like this is get evidence, because there will be a lot of evidence here. What do his e-mails show? Was there contact between them? Were there phone conversations between them? What can they establish as a motive here, because this was a crime of rage, very personal crime.
BROWN: And they found, we should just mention, too, 300 pieces of evidence taken in for analysis. So, they have a lot to work with here.
TOOBIN: They have a lot to work with. So you have to deal with the question of motive because this was obviously not a random crime.
But the second thing is you have to have physical evidence tying him to the crime itself, DNA, blood, hair and fiber. You know, was anything -- did he leave anything on the body underneath her fingernails? Was his DNA, his blood there? That's common in a close struggle like that. That's going to be the determination. That's going to determine the result of this case.
BROWN: Tom, go ahead.
FOREMAN: Yes, Campbell, I wanted to jump in here on this point of the relationship between the people in his job and, for example, the researchers there.
I talked to several members of the custodial staff here, and the police chief said his job was more like a custodian's job. And early on in this, I talked to members of the custodial staff, and every one of them said about Annie Le that they really noted the fact that she talked to them, visited with them, had a nice time with them.
And they said sometimes members of the research staff, sometimes the students don't pay so much attention to them because they are students -- because, you know, they are working people down here at the blue-collar level, and they see themselves as something else.
But they said Annie Le was not that way. They all thought very fondly of her because she seemed to see everyone as equal.
BROWN: All right. We're going to end it there, but many thanks to Casey, Jeff, and to Tom there in New Haven for us.
Tom, thanks a lot.
Such a strange, sad story. Larry King is going to have a whole lot more coming up on his show 9:00 Eastern time tonight.
Strong words today from the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi, warning, the angry anti-Obama rhetoric is getting frightening and could lead to violence.
Also, it was Jaycee Dugard's home for 18 years. Just minutes ago, police released new pictures and new information about what they found in the house that became her prison.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: The president wants to talk health care when it seems everybody else is talking about whether his opponents are racists. Today, Nancy Pelosi warning the angry anti-Obama rhetoric is getting frightening and could lead to violence.
Also, our exclusive investigation -- the nursing mother who says pumping milk in a public restroom at work cost her, her job.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Alarm among Democrats tonight, concern that the focus on racist attacks against President Obama is undermining the White House's goals right now. Their message? Caution.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: We have got to be very careful that we do not project that we are saying that everyone that criticizes the president is a racist. That's just not true. I think the worst thing that could happen is that we reduce the health care fight to a black-white issue. It is not it at all.
CANDY CROWLEY, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Arguments about race are political losers. It turns off independents who, by nature, hate the hard edges of politics. The White House wants none of this.
OBAMA: We don't feed on division and anger. We feed on hope and possibility.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: And we me now from Washington, our senior political analyst, Gloria Borger, senior political analyst Roland Martin there as well, and Republican consultant Alex Castellanos also joining us tonight.
Alex, Speaker Nancy Pelosi talked today about how heated the rhetoric has gotten in this country. Let's listen to what she said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PELOSI: I have concerns about some of the language that is being used, because I saw -- I saw this myself in the late 1970s in San Francisco. This kind of rhetoric is -- was very frightening. And it gave -- it created a climate in which we -- violence took place. And so I wish that we would all, again, curb our enthusiasm in some of the statements that are made. Our country is great because people can say what they think and they believe. But I also think that they have to take responsibility for any incitement that they may cause.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Speaker Pelosi getting emotional there.
Alex, she's talking about, I should say, the homophobic anger that led to the murder of Harvey Milk. Is it a valid comparison?
ALEX CASTELLANOS, CNN POLITICAL CONTRIBUTOR: So, disagreeing with the president on policy is creating a murderous environment?
Pull up, Nancy. The plane is about to slam into the mountain here.
She's doing great political damage to her party, her president, and her cause.
The president actually knows how to handle these issues. David Axelrod and those guys in the White House are very smart. They succeeded by taking America to a place beyond a lot of these racial divisions. America wanted to be that America, a better place. And that's something we should credit President Obama for.
By taking us back to a more conflictive America and saying, look, you can't disagree with the president on policy without disagreeing with him on race -- that's what you are really doing -- they're costing themselves a lot of support. It's not good politics.
BROWN: Roland, do you agree with that? Because it's actually -- what was it, RNC Chairman Michael Steele who today said that it's actually in his view Democrats who are injecting race into this and trying to pump up the debate, just as Alex points out there.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, Campbell, today, someone sent me an e-mail replying to our discussion on this last night on "A.C. 360."
And this is what it said. "I hope I could wake up today and read on here that someone had put a bullet in your ugly head. Oh, well, there's always tomorrow." That's what Nancy Pelosi is talking about. There are people out there who are using that kind of language on blogs, online, in e- mails, at rallies. And that is wrong.
Now, it is wrong to sit here and to assign that to a wide variety of people. There are certainly people who are disagreeing with the president when it comes to his policies, but at the same time, we are to call out those people and to point them out who are speaking the kind of hateful rhetoric that is absolutely unnecessary. It has no place in any of this conversation.
BROWN: But it was no different with President Bush. And, I mean, you certainly heard much of the same level of rhetoric. Is it...
MARTIN: But I don't recall anybody saying let's send President Bush back to Kenya. I don't recall anybody having photos of Bush as a witch doctor.
(CROSSTALK)
CASTELLANOS: Roland, I can remind you that they...
(CROSSTALK)
CASTELLANOS: ... that President Bush wanted to kill...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: All right. Let me let Gloria make a point.
Go ahead.
GLORIA BORGER, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Here's the point where it gets very dangerous politically for this president. And I have spoken with folks at the White House.
They believe that, if he gets dragged into this right now, that everything he does, including health care, including anything, will be seen through the prism of race. That's something, as you know, Campbell, they tried to avoid during the campaign and they clearly want to avoid now.
What people are concerned about is that we've seemed to have lost any boundaries. You have somebody shouting "You lie" to the president of the United States from the floor of the House of Representatives before millions of people. That's just not trading a political charge. That's rude, and that's destructive.
BROWN: But it has already become a distraction, has it not, Gloria?
BORGER: Yes, it is. It is a distraction, and that's why when the president appears on every Sunday show, including "STATE OF THE UNION" on CNN this Sunday, you can be sure when he's asked the question about race, he's going to o say I've got a lot of important work to do. We need to get beyond this. This is not -- this is not the discussion I want to be having right now. He's going to say, you know -- you can't do that.
BROWN: Alex, how is this conversation playing with voters right now? Do you think they're seeing it as ridiculous, manufactured?
CASTELLANOS: I think this is Washington out of touch with America once again. Look, correct me if I'm wrong, but Barack Obama was a black American when he was elected president. He still is. That hasn't changed. What has changed is he's taken the country way to the left. Big government, tons of spending that's going to come back to us for years in debt. So -- and that's what America is upset about, you know, because some people on one fringe or the other say something, that doesn't mean everybody believes it.
BROWN: All right, guys. We have to leave it there. Alex, Roland and Gloria, appreciate your time tonight.
We have some breaking news to share with you about the Jaycee Dugard case. We are getting our first look now inside the home of Phillip and Nancy Garrido, the couple charged with kidnapping Jaycee and holding prisoner for nearly 20 years.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Our breakout story tonight is tonight's breaking news in the kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard. For the first time since this incredible story broke, we're getting a look inside the house of her alleged kidnappers near Antioch, California.
CNN's Dan Simon is on the scene. He is joining us with images of what appear to be the true horrors of this house.
Dan, describe what you're saying.
DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Campbell, first of all, if you thought that backyard was a mess, remember we saw those tents and those sheds, and it was just an absolute mess back there. Apparently the interior of the house was no better. We're looking at these pictures, and it appears that you see filth everywhere, discarded dishes, appliances, poor electrical wiring. Just really filthy conditions.
These pictures were taken on August 27th shortly after Phillip and Nancy Garrido were arrested. The building inspectors' office came out here. They photographed inside the house and then condemned the property, and now we're seeing these pictures really for the first time as you just mentioned -- Campbell.
BROWN: Did I hear you say -- or I'm reading here, Dan, that they're using a cadaver dog to help search the property, right?
SIMON: Well, yes. Today, authorities were back out at the house searching for evidence that might tie the Garridos to a pair of kidnappings that happened some 20 years ago. There were some cadaver dogs on the property today. They actually sniffed out what they believe, at least what their handlers believe are human remains on the Garrido property. They're going to investigate further and dig up that area and see what they can find.
We should note that bones have been found on this property. At least authorities announce that last week. They believe that they're probably human, but it's not uncommon to have Native-American remains here in this area, Campbell.
BROWN: All right. Dan Simon with the very latest for us tonight. Dan, thanks.
Tonight, I want to share a story with you that hits very close to home for many working mothers, myself included. You're going to hear from a woman who says she was fired because she took a few minutes during her shift to pump her breast milk.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LANISA ALLEN, SAVE BREASTFEEDING COST HER A JOB: There are many women out there who have quit their jobs. They've quit their jobs. They don't -- they feel like, you know, we don't have any words.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: So, what I'm about to say probably falls into the category of too much information, but so what. Twice every work day I close the door to my office and I spend about 15 minutes pumping breast milk for my 5-month-old. I have read the endless articles about the benefits of breast milk, and I was convinced, so this is what I do every day.
Breastfeeding, of course, is a personal choice, and I totally understand women who choose to give their babies formula instead. But give the very tough economic climate we're in, the cost of formula is out of reach for a lot of working mothers and pumping breast milk at work becomes a real necessity.
Why am I talking about this, you may wonder? It is because of what I have taken for granted that I work for a company that makes it very easy for me to pump milk every day for my kid, and that is not at all the situation for so many other women. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN (voice-over): After 20 days on the job at a Totes Isotoner warehouse, Lanisa Allen was fired.
LANISA ALLEN, SAVE BREASTFEEDING COST HER A JOB: I just don't think that it's fair that, you know, we have to lose our jobs in order to feed our kids.
BROWN: Lanisa's son, Travian (ph), was four months old when she went for an interview. ALLEN: I did go into the hiring supervisor and asked her, you know, if there was somewhere that I can pump because I was breastfeeding my son. She called me and let me know that it would be at 11:00 in the bathroom.
BROWN: For the first few days, Lanisa went to the public bathroom and pumped her breast milk during her 30 minute lunch break at 11:00 a.m. It was an arrangement doctors call unhealthy at best.
DR. SUSAN ROTHENBERG, BETH ISRAEL MEDICAL CENTER: Public bathrooms are easily the most bacterially contaminated. Flat out, the dirtiest places in the building. No one would want to eat anything that was produced in a public rest room, and asking a baby who has lower immune defenses than the average adult. Asking a baby to eat food that came from that source is really ridiculous.
BROWN: And there was another problem for Lanisa. The warehouse break schedule forced her to wait five hours to pump. A new mom is supposed to pump on the same feeding schedule as her baby, about every three hours, forcing her to wait until 11:00 a.m. An extra two hours meant that Lanisa's breast would get engorged, causing her intense pain and reducing the amount of milk she was producing for her son. Feeling desperate, Lanisa decided to take matters into her own hands.
ALLEN: I watched people for three and four weeks, you know, take bathroom breaks and smoke breaks, but no one ever said anything to them about that. So I don't see what the problem was with me taking the same 15 minute break they did.
BROWN: Lanisa started going to the bathroom an hour earlier. She asked her team leader to cover for her, and she took about 15 minutes to pump. After two weeks on this schedule, a supervisor walked into the bathroom and confronted her.
ALLEN: I said just give me 15 minutes. You know, I will work through my lunch. I said, but I need to, you know, come to the bathroom earlier to pump my milk because it was hurting my back so bad.
BROWN: That same day Lanisa was fired. Totes Isotoner has declined multiple request by CNN for an interview.
In a statement, they said, "This was a case about a temporary warehouse employee repeatedly taking additional paid breaks without informing her supervisors. As always, we will continue to provide nursing mothers with the appropriate time, flexibility, and facilities to meet their individual needs."
ALLEN: If many women out there that have quit their jobs -- they've quit their jobs. They don't -- they feel like, you know, we don't have any words as far as being able to pump our milk.
BROWN: Lanisa sued Totes Isotoner taking her case all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court. She lost. The courts ruled this case was only about unauthorized breaks. Travian (ph) is now a busy 4-year-old, and with the recent attention from her court battle, Lanisa is a hero for working moms with fan mail and all.
ALLEN: Please accept my sympathy. I pumped in dirty restrooms for ten years and got sick three times and was hospitalized.
BROWN: There are now 24 states with laws addressing the issue of breastfeeding moms in the workplace. Ohio is not one of them.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: So, do we need a nationwide law to protect nursing mothers?
Joining me right now is one woman who thinks we do, New York Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney, who has introduced a bill to help new moms in the workplace. And also back here with me is CNN senior legal analyst Jeff Toobin.
Congresswoman Maloney, you're trying to help women like Lanisa. If your bill becomes a law, what would change?
REP. CAROLYN MALONEY (D), NEW YORK: Well, women like Lanisa, or any woman who chose to become a mother and chose to breastfeed or pump in the workplace would be provided with an appropriate time to breast -- to pump their milk and not be fired.
BROWN: So what would you say, though, to business owners who are likely to say this is a burden on us to try to make this sort of accommodations for working mothers?
MALONEY: Well, really, we have to accommodate to the 21st century. Now half of working mothers with children under a year or less are working, and they're a part of the work force. They need the income to support their families, and we should have policies that recognize that a woman should not lose her job because of her choice to become a mother and her choice to breastfeed or pump milk to support and nurture that child.
BROWN: Jeff, as we saw in this piece, I mean, the courts ruled against her, but you took a close look at the decision. What did you think about the ruling? It was very narrow, right?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It was a narrow decision. And the thing that was really galling, I thought, about the ruling, is even if they ruled against Lanisa, they had a chance to say this is a form of discrimination. It may not have taken place in this case, but firing a woman because she's nursing is a form of discrimination. But they didn't say that. And Congress hasn't said it yet. And one thing that the Ohio Supreme Court and Congress have in common is that they're mostly men. And men are made uncomfortable by this issue.
BROWN: Do you -- I mean, do you think that's part of the problem, congresswoman? MALONEY: Well, I would say that study after study, the National Institute for Health, the American Academy of Pediatrics, the Center for Disease Control have all said that breastfeeding is good for the child, good for the mother, makes a healthier child. We all say that we support family values, and why do I keep hearing from women who are fired for pumping in a lavatory? I wouldn't want to have my lunch in a lavatory, and I don't think we should. It's very sad that that is where women have to go to pump their milk.
I've talked to women that have been fired for pumping off of premises, and what my bill would do is say that you cannot discriminate against women in this way. It would be predictable for businesses and women that they would be allowed to pump during an appropriate break. It also provides tax incentive to businesses to deductions for creating a lactation room.
BROWN: How do you change the thinking? The courts and Congress aside, why does a company like Totes Isotoner fight something like this and go all the way to the Ohio Supreme Court.
TOOBIN: Well, I think their argument was she had only worked there for 20 days. There were other reasons why she was fired. They say that they treat women, including breastfeeding women well, in general. But I think, you know, the problem here is that this is not considered a right under American law at least in many, many states. And, you know, the irony is that smoking breaks are so institutionalized everywhere, and everybody gets them, and that makes you sick. And breastfeeding makes everybody healthier, but that's harder to get.
BROWN: That was, of course, Congresswoman Carolyn Maloney and our own Jeff Toobin. There's much more on the issue of nursing moms in the workplace on our Web site. CNN.com/Campbell.
Well, this is fashion week here in New York, but does style still matter in a recession? We're going to chat with one of the country's top designers, Isaac Mizrahi. He's got a lot to dish on, including one of the best known women who wears his designs -- First Lady Michelle Obama.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ISAAC MIZRAHI, CREATIVE DIRECTOR, LIZ CLAIBORNE: She doesn't really value things because of what they cost. She's the least snob person that you can think of. You know, she doesn't just wear expensive clothes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Just about every business is in trouble these days and fashion is no exception. The industry generates $10 billion in wages every year, but these days many people are wondering if luxury may have gone out of style. And that is one reason this week is so important. It is fashion week. More than 60 designers show collections right here in New York. Isaac Mizrahi, who is the creative director of Liz Claiborne had his show this afternoon, and I spoke with him about the fashion industry's big challenge right now.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: Give us a sense for sort of the feeling, the pulse of fashion given what's happening in the economy.
ISAAC MIZRAHI, CREATIVE DIRECTOR, LIZ CLAIBORNE: Well, I have to say, like as a fashion designer, I am never living in the moment. I'm always kind of living in the next moment. You kind of have to do that in order to predict what's going to happen.
BROWN: Right.
MIZRAHI: And, you know, I am now, like, in the next moment, which is I think way better than it is now.
BROWN: So the fashion industry will survive this economic downturn?
MIZRAHI: Oh, yes. You know, I mean, like honestly a good fashion designer has his ear to the ground and feels this coming. I mean, you know, honestly that was one of the reasons I took the job at Liz Claiborne because I thought if any company can survive this kind of thing that's coming, it's Liz Claiborne.
You know, as a good designer you feel things coming, and you react and you kind of adapt quickly, you know, or you die off. Do you know what I mean? And it's like the good ones that precede, you know, they understand what's coming and act. Those are the good designers, and they will -- they will stand their grounds.
OBAMA: Michelle Obama wore one of your designs, and this is on a trip to New York. This is just a few months ago, right? You say she has created the new democracy of fashion. What do you mean by that?
MIZRAHI: Well, I mean, you know, she doesn't really value things because of what they cost. She's the least snob person that you can think of. You know, she doesn't just wear expensive clothes. That's what I like, that she wears everything at equal levels. Everything is as important as everything else. She doesn't -- just because something is expensive or inexpensive, does not make it better or worse to her. It's how she looks in it, how she feels in it, you know.
BROWN: And as a designer, that's what you're going for. That's who you want to design for is somebody who can carry off, I guess, all of it.
MIZRAHI: Yes. And also someone who can mix it together which Michelle Obama does very well. She mixes inexpensive things with expensive things, and it all looks fantastic.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And you can see Isaac Mizrahi's spring 2010 show at watchisaac.com.
"LARRY KING LIVE" just minutes away. He's going to have a whole lot more on the Yale murder case. Also coming up, "Money and Main Street." Where the jobs -- where they are in this economy, and believe it or not they are out there. We'll tell you.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke says the recession is very likely over, in his words, but the rest of the country not so sure. A new CNN/Opinion Research poll out today show 86 percent of Americans say we are in a recession right now. Only 13 percent say we're not.
Reality is a lot of people who lost their jobs still can't find work, but there is opportunity out there if you know where to look. And chief business correspondent Ali Velshi shows us where the jobs are in tonight's "Money and Main Street."
ALI VELSHI, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Campbell, this economy sure feels a lot better than it did a year ago. We've seen improvements in the stock market since March. It's been on a bit of a tear. We've even seen some stability in the housing market.
But what has most people concerned? The job market. Moody's economy.com has crunched the numbers, and we put it on a map for you. We want to show you.
This is a map of job growth in America from the middle of this year to the middle of next year, divided up by state. Let me show you this legend over here.
Anything in orange, dark orange or red means that those states are likely to lose jobs overall, and those in gold, yellow, or bright yellow are likely to gain jobs. Take a look at this. The only states overall slated to gain jobs between the middle of 2009 and the middle of 2010, Texas, Maryland, and the District of Columbia.
Now, that's the overall job situation, but what we often talk about is that there's really robust growth in certain specific areas of the economy. So I've got two copies of the same map. I want to show you when we go away from all sectors and we move to job growth in health care and education, take a look at how this map changes.
All of a sudden you've got only a couple of states in the red, only a few in the orange which means they're losing jobs, and almost every other state is gaining jobs. Some more than others, but there's a whole improvement there if you look at health care and education.
Now I want to show you something else. The other area of growth is government. I'm going to take the same map of the United States and show you what job growth in government looks like. Even better than the health care and education map. Only four states now are slated to lose jobs between the middle of 2009 and the middle of 2010, and almost every other state is gaining employment in government.
Remember, government jobs are all sorts of things. The government needs engineers. It needs zookeepers. It needs retail workers. So it's worth thinking about if you're either out of a job or you're thinking about your next job that these are areas that we're going to see a lot of growth, at least according to Moody's economy.com -- Campbell.
BROWN: Ali Velshi for us tonight.
And you can track job trends by state and by industry on the web. Go to CNN.com/moneyandmainstreet. And later tonight, join Ali and Anderson Cooper for a "Money and Main Street" special. That is tonight, 11:00 Eastern Time.
And that is it for us. "LARRY KING LIVE" starts right now.
