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Friends of Yale Murder Suspect Speak Out

Aired September 17, 2009 - 21:00   ET


LARRY KING, HOST: Tonight, police say that this man killed Yale grad student Annie Le. A university employee is now charged with her savage murder.


RICHARD LEVIN, PRESIDENT, YALE UNIVERSITY: It is very disturbing to think that a university employee might have committed this terrible crime.


KING: What's the motive?

Those with answers are revealing just one clue.


CHIEF JAMES LEWIS, NEW HAVEN POLICE DEPARTMENT: This is not about urban crime. It's not about university crime. It's not about domestic crime, but an issue of workplace violence.


KING: The suspect's friends are here.

What do they know about Raymond Clark?

And then, bones on Phillip Garrido's property -- whose are they?

Is the man charged with kidnapping Jaycee Dugard and keeping her for 18 years keeping a secret about other victims?


One reminder as we come on, Bill Clinton, special guest Monday night.

Big news today in the murder of Yale grad student Annie Le. A suspect was arrested and that suspect is Mr. Clark.

And in that connection, joining us in New York, Bobby Heslin, Raymond Clark's best friend, who grew up next door to Clark; Maurice Perry, the childhood friend of Raymond Clark since first grade; and in New Haven, Connecticut, Marcia Chambers, reporter for the "New Haven Independent".

Bobby, you're friends since childhood. You grew up next door to him.

What do you make of this?

BOBBY HESLIN, GREW UP NEXT DOOR, CLARK'S BEST FRIEND: Ray is my absolute best friend. I mean he's -- he's someone I considered a dear friend of mine ever since growing up, since we've been five years old, up until, you know, thus far. And it's just -- Ray, to me, is -- I -- I'm speaking on behalf of my friendship with him and for the rest of, you know, the town of Branford. Ray has -- I did -- an absolute complete shock. I cannot understand the position that Ray is in right now, why he's in this position. I mean, obviously, we -- we do know, you know, that -- what is going on. But it's like, it's a complete shock because this is -- this is a dear friend of ours and a dear friend of mine, who I've grown my whole entire life to know. And it's -- the whole -- the whole country and everybody else in Branford is wondering. We want questions. I mean we want answers to all of our questions. Everybody has questions.

He's being portrayed right now as, you know, being -- being a murder suspect. And that's not the -- that's not the Raymond Clark who I -- who I have known my whole entire life. Raymond Clark, to me, is -- I -- I...

KING: Maurice Perry, you...


KING: All right. I'll come right back to you, Bobby.

Maurice, you were a childhood friend of Raymond's since first grade.

What do you make of this?

PERRY: It's very shocking to me. This is not the Raymond Clark that I know. And honestly, at the time being, I can't say that I believe he's guilty. I mean I've known him so long I just can't picture him doing something like this. No. Not at all.

KING: Have you ever known him to be violent?

PERRY: No. Not at all. I've known him to be outgoing, happy, athletic, fun. Violent, not at all.

KING: Bobby, did he ever discuss Ms. Le with you?

HESLIN: No, not at all.

KING: So the fact that -- you have no idea about this person who is dead and he's reported to have killed her?

HESLIN: This is -- this is all -- Ray being a suspect in this case has almost -- has riddled everybody's mind in the -- in the past, you know, couple of days, weeks. My heart does go out to, you know, her family. I want to say, you know, my thoughts and prayers are with her. And it's also... PERRY: I would also like to say that.

HESLIN: And it's also with, you know, my -- my friend Raymond and his family, to his mother, his sister and his father, who I've grown to -- to know, you know, my whole child -- my whole childhood life.

KING: Yes.

HESLIN: And you know, at a time right now, it's -- it just -- it doesn't seem -- it doesn't seem real to wake up and to -- to go flip through all the channels and to see that on every single channel your -- your best friend that you've -- you've known your whole entire life, whether it may be walking -- walking to his house every single day since we were freshmen in high school, walking to the bus stop and waiting for that Bus Number 11 to come down to the street and, you know, bring us.

KING: Yes.

HESLIN: And -- and it's just -- the person that he is, it just -- it just boggles my mind.

KING: You know...

HESLIN: It just...

KING: I can only imagine -- I can only imagine what it would be like for you.

Let's bring in Marcia Chambers, the reporter for the "New Haven Independent".

Marcia, now, did you break a story about Mr. Clark in 2003 being involved in an altercation with a woman?

MARCIA CHAMBERS, REPORTER, "NEW HAVEN INDEPENDENT": Larry, I didn't break the story in 2003, I broke the story this week. This was about an incident that occurred...

KING: Yes, I know that.

CHAMBERS: 2003. And it involved an incident...

KING: What was the incident?

CHAMBERS: the Bradford High School. The incident involved himself -- he -- the -- the suspect and his former girlfriend. And she wanted to break up with him. They had been in a long-term relationship. He was very upset and very livid. They were at the Brand -- Branford High School. He wrote some bad stuff on her locker. The assistant principal called the police. The police came to the high school. Clark was told not to have anything to do with the girl.

And then a couple of days later, she went to the police department to speak to a detective. And she was with her mother. And during that conversation, she said that she had had a long-term sexual relationship with him and that at one point during that relationship, he forced her to have sex with him.

She did not want to file a complaint against him, she simply wanted the police to know about that. They took cognizance of that and then theory told her -- they told her that he would not -- he would be told to stay away from her. If she changed her mind, they would pursue it.

She did not press criminal charges and the police did not press criminal charges. And that was the end of the incident, although the detective did call his parents and alert him to what had -- alert them to what had happened.

KING: All right. All right, hold on. I know, Marcia. I meant to say you broke the story this week, but it happened in 2003.

We're going to take a break. And I want to get Bobby and Maurice's reaction to that report.

We'll be right back.

Don't go away.



LEWIS: About 20 minutes ago, an arrest warrant was signed charging Clark for the murder in the death of Annie Le.


KING: Joining Bobby Heslin and Maurice Perry and Marcia Chambers, with us from New Haven is Thomas Kaplan, editor-in-chief at the "Yale Daily News." He did not know Annie personally. He's been doing extensive coverage of the murder and was with us last night.

Before I talk with Thomas, all right, Bobby, what do you make of what Marcia just told us about that incident in 2003?

What do you know about it?

THOMAS KAPLAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "YALE DAILY NEWS": Well, that incident, to me, is just as new to me as it is to the rest of the watching America, who now know that in 2003, in high school, there was an altercation where Ray became involved with that girl. And whether it came physical or not, I do not know the extent of that. I just know -- I do know, personally, the individual who they're speaking about. But that's -- that's not my place to speak on her behalf. I really have no -- no further comment on the situation, but other than I knew they were acquainted with each other, but I did not know that the report that is now being out in the media ever, ever, ever took place. That's between...

KING: All right, you mean... KAPLAN: ...that's -- that's their business and...

KING: Maurice...

KAPLAN: And I never ever...


KAPLAN: ...have intention to...

KING: I understand.

All right, Maurice, did your -- did your best friend, Maurice, your childhood friend, ever say anything to you about this?

PERRY: No. Not at all. This is all new to me, also. I knew (INAUDIBLE)...

KING: So what do you make of it?

HESLIN: What could you -- I mean what could you make of it right now?

I mean everything is -- the evidence that's -- that's all coming against, you know, this case right now is pretty much -- it is what it is.

KING: I don't want to prejudge him. KING: You say you know -- HESLIN: Yes, exactly. And...

KING: Bobby, you say you know the young lady. You know the young lady.

Did she ever tell you anything about him?

HESLIN: Never. And I was...


Did she ever say anything to you?

HESLIN: Never. I was only friends with that girl just like (INAUDIBLE) like social events. Like if we would -- if we would go to a party, if, you know, we ended up like going and meeting up at a party or, you know. I never held -- I never ever held a friendship with this -- with her other than she was a 2004 graduate with me, whereas Ray...

KING: I got you.

HESLIN: You know, Ray -- Ray has, you know, Ray has been my friend since childhood. I've known Ray -- I've known how he's been growing into the person he has become as of right now, being the murder suspect of Annie Le. And that, to me -- that, to me, gives me chills up and down my spine, like that's not the Ray Clark I -- I know. It's -- everything is so (INAUDIBLE)... KING: Thomas Kaplan -- all right.

HESLIN: But, I mean it feels like (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Thomas Kaplan, what do you make of it when you hear these -- Thomas Kaplan of the Yale "Daily News," what do you make of it when you hear these two young men talk?

KAPLAN: Well, I mean, I think the unfortunate thing about this incident in high school, given the fact that charges were not filed, you know, it -- it -- we know that, you know, Mr. Clark had no record. No background check would have shown something like this. So it's hard to really say at this point.

As far as we know from Yale, Mr. Clark's supervisor said that he was a, you know, a great employee. He never had any problems -- no disciplinary problems. So that's what makes this whole chain of events surprising.

KING: Here's what the president of Yale had to say about Raymond Clark.



LEVIN: Mr. Clark has been a lab technician at Yale since December 2004. His supervisor reports that nothing in the history of his employment here gave any indication that his involvement in such a crime might be possible. It is very disturbing to think that a university employee might have committed this terrible crime.


KING: This is a puzzle.

Bobby, when was the last time you spoke to Ray?

HESLIN: I spoke with Ray, I want to say probably two -- two months ago. I mean, it was earlier this year. It was probably -- some time earlier this year. I want to say about like two months.

KING: To your knowledge, was he engaged to someone?

HESLIN: Well, at -- to my knowledge, when I had last met up with him and hung out with him, he had never mentioned anything about being engaged other than he had -- he had a girlfriend. And he told me, you know, other than -- we were there to play baseball. And we were pretty much discussing, furthermore, like about him playing baseball, being at the, you know, at the sportsplex or whatever. And because that's like -- that's something I -- I've grown up to -- to always do with him.

KING: Well, if he...

HESLIN: We always played baseball in his backyard. KING: If you were engaged, you're a life-long friend, Bobby, if you were engaged...

HESLIN: I know. I...

KING: ...he wouldn't have called you and told you.

HESLIN: I understand that, Larry. I understand that. But, yes, he was my life-long friend. But after high school, people go there -- you know, people seem to go their own ways. People all go their own -- people all go their own ways.

KING: Did he say anything to you, Maurice?


HESLIN: But, no...

KING: Maurice, did he say anything to you ever about being engaged?

PERRY: I never heard anything about it, no.

HESLIN: It -- when -- when I say that, just because we've got -- I had graduated. I was a 2004 graduate with him. Just because we don't walk through the halls every single day together with each other doesn't mean I still haven't kept contact with him or at least made an attempt to, because I have. And Ray has been a true friend of mine since, like I -- like I've said -- I don't mean to repeat myself, but as childhood. So this is a person I've -- I've grown up with and...

KING: All right. We've got that.

HESLIN: All right. And I'm -- I apologize for repeating myself, but...

KING: Marcia, has -- all right.

Marcia, has the police reported anything about motive?

CHAMBERS: About murder?

KING: Motive.

CHAMBERS: I'm sorry, there's a train going by.

KING: Why did he -- if he killed her, why did he kill her?

CHAMBERS: No. The -- the police -- the police have not said, except that it was a workplace crime, they believe. He was described in this morning's "New York Times" by some -- by researchers who used the lab as officious and demanding. And he really may be a person who had several sides to him.

I can't -- I don't know -- I don't know him personally. I do know that we also -- we also attempted to talk to his former girlfriend. And one of our reporters, Melissa Bailey, did see her Facebook description of what she felt after she heard that he might be connected to the case. And what she said was that it brought back many memories of her own encounter with him and that these three...

HESLIN: Can I interrupt?

CHAMBERS: ...these last few days had been very difficult.

I'm sorry.

KING: What do you want to say?

Bobby, I've got to get a break.

We'll come right back.

We'll be back in 60 seconds.


KING: Now, Bobby, we've learned that Ray apparently was engaged -- scheduled to be married in December of 2011. But you didn't know about that because you had obviously parted ways since high school.

What did you want to add?

I'm sorry. I interrupted you.

HESLIN: No. What I was saying to -- I'm -- I apologize. I don't know her name out of New Haven. You -- you asked her about, you know, the engagement and everything and about -- she just -- further, to add on to what, you know, her response, all I'm trying to say is people -- people will turn on their televisions and they -- right now Raymond Clark is Ray-Ray. I get -- I shouldn't even refer to him as Raymond Clark, Ray-Ray has -- has now been -- he's now been...

KING: Vilified.

HESLIN: Yes. He's been...

KING: He's not vilified, he's been vilified.

HESLIN: Yes. He is now being -- he is now, as of right now, the suspect in the Annie Le slaying in Yale.

KING: Right.

HESLIN: And people...

KING: That's all he is right now.

HESLIN: No. And in the past couple of days, no matter, you know, with how -- how everything has been coming together and I've been so overwhelmed with trying to take this all in. And I feel like me -- you know, talking for -- talking for everybody throughout like Branford... KING: I understand what you're going through...



HESLIN: I know. I'm getting -- I'm getting off topic (INAUDIBLE).

KING: Bobby, have you spoke to his -- have you -- or have you spoken to his parents?

HESLIN: I have not.

KING: Why not call them?

HESLIN: Because I only kept contact with him, not through -- he didn't, no, he didn't live with his parents. He never...



KING: Maurice, have you had any contact with his parents or anyone?

PERRY: No, not at all.


KING: Thomas, does this look like a very, very strong case?


KAPLAN: Yes. Well, That's what it seems like from what investigators have told us. Sources say that there was a DNA match between Raymond and Annie Le and that's what brought the warrant today and the arrest. Couple that with the records of the key cards in this building that show that, according to news reports, that Ray was the last person to see Annie alive and it does seem like this is a strong arrest.

KING: All right.

We're going to have to do more on this with all of these guests.

We have some legal aspects coming next.

Our thanks to Marcia, Bobby and Maurice.

And we'll stay another segment -- will they stay?

I don't say what -- I don't know. I'll be back.


KING: We're holding Bobby Heslin and Maurice Perry, his childhood friends, to stay with us for another segment.

We're joined by Dr. Michael Welner. He is professor of psychiatry at NYU's School of Medicine. He developed the Depravity Scale and he joins us now with his insights on this.

We want to remind you, if I have to remind you -- it's sad that I do -- everyone is innocent until proven guilty in the United States. We do not want to convict Mr. Clark, certainly, on -- on this program.

All right, Dr. Welner, the two young men who grew up with him don't know what we're talking about.

What do you make of it?

DR. MICHAEL WELNER, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY, NYU SCHOOL OF MEDICINE, DEVELOPER OF "DEPRAVITY SCALE": Well, secrets are often kept from friends. And this is a world where people who have conflicts that they're trying to work out, if they don't confide them in a fiance and don't confide them in -- in friends, there's a pretty good likelihood they haven't worked them out.

So it doesn't surprise me that what's at the heart of this confrontation is something that friends -- even close friends -- might not be able to connect to.

But the important thing here is this is someone who had friends, who was gainfully employed, who was steadily employed, who wasn't in a crisis that we know about and who was loved by a woman in his life. And so he's a lot more connected than some of the dead-end people who make desperate decisions that we find ourselves talking about in these kinds of forums.

KING: So what do you make of this?

WELNER: Well, there's a lot more to the story that I think has yet to -- to be determined. But let me point something out to you, Larry, and to your viewers. I think the forensic pathology is going to emerge as a very key issue in the legal struggle over this over, of what actually happened. Because if this was an unexpected death, then there is a question of how much he savaged her versus how much things may have gotten out of hand.

And what if they test him and find steroids in his system and find that he had an explosive reaction and didn't know his own rage or strength with a 4'11" woman?

So I think there are many medical and psychiatric and pathology complexities that become more complex if we don't identify a motive for this crime.

KING: All right. Maurice, when you hear that, what do you -- what goes through your mind?

PERRY: You mean about him taking steroids?

KING: When you hear what he just said, yes, the steroids, violence, and the fact that you don't actually know anybody, really.

PERRY: Well, all I can say is I never knew Raymond to be a violent person at all. And about the steroids, I never heard anything about him ever taking steroids.

HESLIN: Well, look, let me speak real quick. You know, people -- people are going to -- are going to judge one person as to the -- all the evidence and all of the -- the news that they're -- that they're -- that they're -- I'm sorry...

KING: I'm not judging him.

HESLIN: No, but. All right, let me -- all right.


HESLIN: You're not judging him right now, but within the past couple of days -- these nerve-wracking couple of days that knowing that someone I've been close with my entire life is now on every -- almost every single channel that I flip through is just, it's -- it's gut-wrenching. And it -- and it hits me the hardest because this is not the person I have known.

Ray, to me, has been a very, very outgoing person.

KING: I know.

HESLIN: He had a passion for life. And to -- and for people to everybody -- I read through blogs, I've read all over that everybody is saying Ray is the most violent person, blah, blah, blah, blah, from what's going on. And now they're just pretty much saying, you know, everything -- it is what it is, you know. Anybody could tell, you know, what -- obviously, what's going on. But now they're depicting him as a cold-blooded killer that now either lock him up for life or whatever...


HESLIN: ...the consequences...

KING: I've got it.

HESLIN: ...whatever the consequences may be to -- to a murder.

You understand what I'm saying?

KING: I got it.


KING: Let me get a break.

Our guests will be with us.

We're joined by -- hold it.

We're joined by a former prosecutor and defense attorney.

What kind of case does the state have, right after this.


KING: Joining us now, his two friends and Dr. Welner.

We're joined by Judge Jeanine Pirro. She's in Chicago, host of her own program and former district attorney.

In San Francisco, the defense attorney, Michael Cardoza.

Michael, is this kid really up against it based on publicity alone?

MICHAEL CARDOZA, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Boy, he's going to have a tough time, because I think most people listening right now probably have him convicted. To defend this kid, it's going to be difficult. But the first thing that I would do would be to look for that motive, as they talked about before.

Was there a motive?

Was there a relationship here or was this a spur of the moment incident that may take it out of the murder range, assuming he did it -- and certainly we don't know that. But a defense attorney would be fighting to get it down into the manslaughter range. But all that circumstantial evidence, all that DNA evidence is going to be tremendously important in this case.

KING: Judge Pirro, when you hear his young friends that grew up with him speak -- speak with, from the heart, what do you -- what do you read into it?

JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO, HOST, "JUDGE JEANINE PIRRO": Well, you know, Larry, nobody really knows what a murderer is like. I mean people don't show that side of themselves. I certainly feel compassion for them. I mean he is their friend and everyone agrees that he is innocent until pronounced guilty.

But I -- I do agree with Michael Cardozo. What we need in this case is we need a motive, because there's nothing about Raymond Clark that suggests that he's this murderer or that he's got a violent temper. But when you juxtapose that against the fact that apparently there's DNA, forensic evidence, surveillance, interviews, the last person to see her, it all starts to come together. But I think the jury is going to want to know why, because it doesn't make sense right now.

KING: You agree with that, Dr. Welner?

WELNER: At the workplace, by far, the most common cause of a homicide of a male toward a female is rejection. And the complexities of rejection are sometimes quite hidden. And we know about the texting that it dealt with a workplace matter. Nobody is going to kill somebody over myself and cleanliness. And, in fact, at the workplace, you want a custodian who wants a clean lab.

You know, in terms of what Yale says, their risk management, their legal department has carefully written a statement to absolve them of any legal liability. So, we're not going to learn any answers from the statement from the president.

The reality is -- the reality, briefly, is that rejection is the most common cause of workplace homicide. And we need to take a close look at the dynamics of his sensitivities and hers.

KING: All right. Bobby, do you tend to try to contact Ray?

HESLIN: As of when? When?

KING: Try to call him?

HESLIN: Oh, absolutely. In the past, you know. Now hearing this, of course, I would love to talk to the kid. He has everybody across glued to the televisions right now, like, the question why? Why? What is the -- who killed her? And why are you a person of interest? Or now, you know, an arrest.

KING: Or a suspect. Michael, if you are his attorney, what do you want to know? Hold it, Bobby. What do you want too know from Michael when you sit down with him?

CARDOZA: Well, certainly, I want to know on a certain level what happened. But before I really get into deep conversation with him, I would want to look at the evidence that the prosecutor has put together, and especially that forensic evidence. And one of the things I would be very interested in is why did he, a worker at the lab, have her phone number? Was that standard operating procedure there, where every worker had the student's phone number?

Because did he have it because of a relationship? I know the DA is going to be looking into that. Because, as judge Pirro said, the motive, the reason is of utmost importance here. If they can show a previous relationship, that prosecution is going to be a step ahead here.

PIRRO: Larry, I also believe --

KING: Judge -- go ahead.

PIRRO: I also believe that the prosecutor already knows a great deal. The prosecutor has the emails, the text messages, phone numbers. And, you know, they're not letting us know what exactly has gone on. Is this just about cleaning the cage, or is this about more?

When Dr. Welner talks about rejection and work please violence, we will know soon enough whether there was any kind of suggestion of a relationship, or whether or not it was in his mind, or whether it was just anger and he just exploded.

WELNER: I think --

KING: Maurice, are you going to try to contact him? Maurice, are you going to try to contact him?

PERRY: Yes. I'm definitely going to send hem a letter. I mean, I have always wanted to catch up with him, but I didn't want this to happen for me to, you know, try to find out how he was doing.

HESLIN: Most people right now are portraying Ray as a murderer. If I saw Ray right now, I wish I could the kid a hug and shake his hand, and just be like, what is going on right now? Because this is not the person --

KING: We're obviously going to stay on top of this. We thank you all. We'll get into another sensational crime, the kidnapping of Jaycee Dugard. The discovery of bones on the property where she was allegedly kept for 18 years. Breaking news on that next.


KING: Investigators have found bones on the property where kidnap suspects Philip and Nancy Garrido lived with Jaycee Dugard and her two daughters. Some were also found next door. Now investigators are trying to determine if there's any connection between the Garridos and two long-standing missing girl cases.

We'll meet some people directly involved. But, first, Dan Simon of CNN is on the scene with the latest. Which is what, Dan?

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Larry. Authorities have been out here for the last couple days, as you mention, looking for evidence that might tie Philip and Nancy Garrido Garridos to a pair of kidnappings that happened roughly 20 years ago.

Today, about half a dozen cadaver dogs zeroed in on a spot behind Philip Garrido's home. And these dogs, Larry, are specifically trained to pick up human remains. So, obviously, authorities are going to want to investigate that area further and sort of dig it up to see if there's anything beneath the soil.

The second interesting component we learned today, Larry, is some photos were released that show what the inside of Philip Garrido's home looked like. You will recall what the backyard looked like, the series of tents and sheds. Very disturbing to see the backyard. Well, the house inside, when you look inside, it doesn't look any better. Really filth everywhere. Obviously, you are talking about pack rats. You are talking about dishes that haven't been cleaned, discarded appliances, discarded furniture. Really a mess inside, Larry.

KING: Any reports on when we'll get some DNA results on all of this?

SIMON: Well, we should note that there were some human -- not human remains, but there were some bones that were discovered about a week or so ago. The dog determined that the bone is probably a human bone, but they needed to investigate it further. We should note that it's not uncommon to find Native American remains in this area. So authorities a bit cautious. But they're looking at that bone -- that bone fragment very carefully to see what the DNA might show, to see if it might be linked to these two cases, Larry.

KING: Thanks, Dan. Dan Simon, our CNN correspondent at the Garrido house. Also at that house, Sharon Murch. She's the mother of a missing nine-year-old, Michaela Garecht. Michaela disappeared in 1988 from Hayward, California. Also there is Lieutenant Chris Orrey of the Hayward Police Department, and Lieutenant Kurt Von Savoye of the Dublin Police Department. He has been following the 13-year-old missing girl Ilene Misheloff, who was abducted in 1989.

Sharon, what were the circumstances of your daughter's going missing?

SHARON MURCH, MOTHER OF MISSING GIRL, MICHAELA GARECHT: My daughter went to the local market on a Saturday morning with her best friend. They road scooters up there and left them by the side of the door when they went into the store. When they came out, one of the scooters was messing. Michaela spotted it in the parking lot. She went to get it. And when she did, a man jumped out of the car next to it and grabbed her from behind, threw her in his car, and took off with her.

KING: She would be 31 years old now, right?

MURCH: She would be 30 years old.

KING: Thirty years old. Now, Lieutenant Orrey, you have worked on this case, is that correct?


KING: Were there any leads along the way in these past years?

ORREY: We've investigated over 13,000 leads on this case. They've come in from all over the country, all over the world. We have pursued all of them, but we feel like this is one of the strongest leads that has come in on this case.

KING: So you feel that these might be the bones of Sharon's young daughter?

ORREY: think it's too soon to say something like that. We hope for a better resolution than that, possibly something that leads us to where Michaela might be alive. But some resolution is certainly better than none. And it's too early to say what these bones might be.

KING: Lieutenant, you have been working on this Ilene Misheloff case since -- how long you been working on this case?

LT. KURT VON SAVOYE, DUBLIN POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, the Dublin Police Department has been working the case since it was initially reported on January 30th of 1989.

KING: And you yourself how long?

SAVOYE: I have been supervising the unit that is investigating this case since -- for about the last six months.

KING: Are the two areas close to each other where these girls went missing?

SAVOYE: They're within I would say 15 to 20 miles.

KING: What do you make of this new finding?

SAVOYE: It's certainly concerning. We want to explore every piece of evidence that has been recovered at this site, including attempting to determine whether or not this bone fragment is, in fact, human and if we can -- if it is -- who it belongs to.

KING: Have there been lots of leads in the case as there were in the case Chris is working?

SAVOYE: There have, Larry. The Dublin Police Department has followed up on literally thousands of leads over the course of more than 20 years.

KING: Is this one of the strangest suspects in your history, lieutenant?

ORREY: He is absolutely a strange and awful predatory person, no doubt.

KING: Thank you both very much. Sharon will remain with us. And we'll be joined by Katie Callaway Hall, recently on this show, who was kidnapped and raped by Garrido in 1976.

We'll be back after this.


KING: -- or heroin who was inspired by her own need for transportation. Susan Jacobs took action, knowing that many people don't have an affordable way to get to or look for work. Here's what she did about it.


SUSAN JACOBS, CNN HERO: I started this six years ago after running a staffing agency . And that was the challenge that I constantly faced. I could find people jobs at low income levels, but they were afraid that they wouldn't be able to get there. How were they going to make it on time? If they had a car, it wasn't always in good repair.

That was the challenge we faced all the time. Many times taking people to work so we wouldn't lose the client.

KING: Has that ever happened to you, where you couldn't drive to work?

JACOBS: That's actually, you know -- it happened to me many years ago. It seems like a lifetime ago now. I left a domestic violence situation without a car. And a stranger actually gave me a car to use until I could save up enough money to buy one. I always knew I wanted to do something to be able to pay it forward. But I never really thought it would be vehicles. That just kind of came about.

KING: Congratulations, Susan. Keep it up.

JACOBS: Thank you so much, and thanks to the Tampa Bay community who supports us so heavily and to the Bobby Davis and the Children's Board for nominating me. I really appreciate it.


KING: Thanks, Susan. You may have given some others a pretty good idea. Keep up the great work.

Next, a Garrido victim is back with us and bravely speaking out. What she wants you to know about him. Stay with us.



KING: Sharon Murch remains with us, the mother of the messing girl, Michaela Garecht. Michaela disappeared in 1988 from Hayward, California. She's at the Garrido house now. And joining us from San Francisco, a return visit with Katie Callaway Hall, who was kidnapped and raped in an incredible eight-hour adventure with the suspect Philip Garrido back in 1976, and lived in fear of him for all these years.

Sharon, is it hard for you to be at that house?

MURCH: Yes. I was able to go on the property for the first time today. I walked into the backyard, and it's just a horrific feeling back there, knowing what those girls were going through living back there for all that time.

KING: Now, you have not had closure, so what is your wish tonight?

MURCH: My wish is to find Michaela alive. I have not lost that hope. And I won't lose that hope until somebody can prove to me that she's not. And my wish is that Michaela would see me here on TV and she would realize how much I miss her. I used to tell her when she was a child be careful and take care of yourself, because if anything happened you to, it would break my heart. And I would just like her to see me and remember that and break free from wherever she's been and come home.

KING: One can only imagine what you have gone through. Katie, you were raped and kidnapped by Philip Garrido. Have you been following all of these developments?

KATIE CALLAWAY HALL, KIDNAPPED AND RAPED BY GARRIDO: : Yes, I have, Larry. I'll tell you, with every piece of new evidence they find, it just sends me reeling with the thought of the atrocities this man may have committed. I just want to scream. I told you -- I told you he was dangerous to the authorities, to the parole board. You know? It's terrifying.

KING: Do you believe in your heart he might have committed these other crimes?

HALL: I believe he's capable of it, yes, absolutely. The man that had me that night, I absolutely believe that he's capable of it.

KING: Have you tried to talk to Jaycee or her family?

HALL: No, I haven't. I'll let them come out in their own time. If they would like to talk to me, of course, I'm sure they can reach me through you. I'm absolutely open to talking to them. But I want to give them time to just have their time together, reconnect.

KING: You survived this horrible incident. What do you say to Sharon Murch?

HALL: Don't give up hope. Never give up hope, Sharon. I'm hoping and praying that you find your daughter, too. I can't imagine having lost a child like you did. That's just horrible.

MURCH: Thank you. Thank you.

KING: How you have put up with this, Sharon? How have you lived?

MURCH: It's been a long time. It's been 20 years. And it's been one day at a time. And different strategies at different times. The last month or so, the last few weeks have been really difficult. My hopes have been higher than they've ever been. And my fears have been higher as well. Not knowing -- holding on to that hope is really -- hope is a heavy burden to carry when it's unfulfilled over a long period of time. So it's been very difficult.

KING: You think about her every day?

MURCH: Oh, every day, absolutely. She's still very much a part of my life. She's very much a part of my activities. I have a website for her and I'm on it every day, myself. And she is very much the center of my life. And she always will be.

KING: When we come back, I'll ask -- yes, fully understandable. We'll ask Katie if she feels lucky. First, these words.


KING: Katie, when you were on this show in August, you told us that family and friends didn't know what happened to you in 1976. Well, now they do. What has been their response?

HALL: Nothing but support, absolute support for me speaking out and, you know, trying to speak for all those people, all those women that don't have their voices yet to come forward and tell their story. It's been nothing but support. A lot of them were very surprised, of course. But now that they know, they're just saying go, Katie, go.

KING: I bet. Do you have any fears at all that he could be acquitted?

HALL: You know, yes, I do. I'm sorry, but look at my experience. Just --

KING: I can understand.

HALL: I worry about it. That's why I'm making all this noise right now. I'm going to make sure that he doesn't slip through the cracks ever again.

KING: Sharon, investigators are combing the properties for signs of other possible victims. They continue to remove debris. They're going to use search dogs and ground penetrating radar. Do they keep you in the loop with all of this?

MURCH: No. Yes, they do. Our investigators have been absolutely excellent. This has never been a cold case. They've been working the case even before Jaycee was found, and have always stayed in close communication with me. And they have been absolutely excellent. I couldn't ask for better.

And there are many volunteer searchers out here. And I am very thankful to all of these people who are pouring so much of their time and heart and resources into this.

KING: Did they ever have leads during these years that indicated someone might have seen her or they may have found her somewhere?

MURCH: I had a lead a couple years ago about a young woman on the other side of the country who couldn't remember her childhood and who had suddenly discovered that her name was supposed to be Michaela. For a while, I thought it was her, and she was going to come home. But it turned out not to be.

That's the only one I know of that would indicate Michaela coming home alive after all this time.

KING: Kate, the incident happened with you in Reno, right? You were taken to Reno, right?

HALL: Yes, I was taken to Reno.

KING: Would you want to go visit the Garrido house?

HALL: Not particularly, thank you anyway. I did go, however --

KING: I mean to look at where you might have wound up.

HALL: No, thanks. I went this last week and looked at the warehouse with some people. And that was scary enough, where he had me.

KING: Where you were raped? HALL: Yes. That brought back a lot of bad memories.

KING: It's still there?

HALL: Yes, it is. It's still there.

KING: Do you consider yourself lucky?

HALL: Absolutely. I feel extremely lucky. You know, I must have had an angel watching over me that night, because I have no doubt he would have killed me. I mean there's no way he could have let me go, and trusted me to not tell on him. He would have had to kill me. So I feel very lucky, yes.

KING: Boy, you are. So, Sharon, you are hoping beyond hope that those bones are not your daughter's naturally, right? Even though you want closure, you don't want that kind of closure.

MURCH: I really don't want that kind of closure. I believe that Michaela could be alive. And finding Jaycee proves that it can happen.

KING: By the way, Sharon, do you have any feelings toward his wife, Garrido's wife? Any thoughts about her?

MURCH: I really cannot understand how she could have done what she did. It's hard enough to imagine somebody who has the sickness to behave this way, much less somebody who is just supporting it. She really doesn't have any excuse. She doesn't have --

KING: No. What a tragedy. Thank you, Sharon Murch and Katie Callaway Hall.

Don't forget, Bill Clinton Monday night. We now turn things over to our partner here, right here in Los Angeles, covering all the news of the day, and a big program coming up in an hour as well. Here's Anderson Cooper and "AC 360."