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Jane Velez-Mitchell
DNA Evidence Mounts Against Accused Killer; Truth Revealed about False Claim of Gang Rape
Aired September 18, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST (voice-over): Tonight, stomach-churning insight into the life of an accused killer we`re now learning more about the 24-year-old lab tech accused of brutally murdering Annie Le.
It seems Raymond Clark was living two lives. Some friends say he was friendly and nice, but others describe a darker side to this accused killer. Neighbors say he controlled his fiancee. And an ex-girlfriend reportedly claimed he once forced her to have sex with him against her will, although charges were never filed.
Meanwhile, co-workers say Clark took his job very seriously. And sources reportedly say he complained that Le had left several lab cages dirty. Could this have led to Annie Le`s murder? Did custodial Clark see himself as lord of the lab?
And turning the tables on a liar. The Hofstra co-ed who made up a story about being gang raped now finds herself under the hot lights of the media. She railroaded these young men with a fictitious tale of gang rape. Now it`s her turn to be scrutinized. So why were prosecutors trying to protect her identity, after plastering pictures and names of the accused rapists all over the media?
Plus, brace yourself for the very first look inside Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors. More than 100 pictures were just released of this disgusting hell hole. It`s a firsthand look at what police say was Jaycee Dugard`s nightmare. The house is a complete dump: garbage everywhere. What insight does this give us into the sick mind of a rapist and accused kidnapper?
ISSUES starts now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, a slew of new developments in the investigation into the grisly, horrific murder of brilliant, beautiful bride-to-be Annie Le.
Take a look at this. "The New York Daily News" reporting a trail of shocking physical evidence against Raymond Clark III, who was charged with punching and then strangling Annie Le.
"The Daily News" reports state (ph) DNA tests prove -- this is from the "Daily News" -- Annie`s blood is on Clark`s boots, which bizarrely had his name on them.
The paper also says Annie`s DNA and hair were found on Raymond`s body. The news adds Raymond Clark`s special green pen, which he used to distinguish himself from his co-workers, was also allegedly found in the lab basement after it fell into a crevice. You will not believe how he allegedly tried to retrieve the pen.
"The Daily News" reports that Clark returned to work the next day with a backpack that contained wire, fishing hooks, and chewing gum to try to fish out the pen that got stuck in the crevice. Does this guy think he`s MacGyver?
Meanwhile, WCIC in Hartford claims cops are interrogating a possible second lab worker, as a chilling portrait of Clark as a, quote, "control freak" at work is coming into sharp relief. As for Clark`s high school buddies, they`re not having any of it. They came to his defense last night on Larry King.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BOBBY HESLIN, CLARK`S HIGH SCHOOL BEST FRIEND: Raymond Clark is Ray Ray. I shouldn`t even refer to him as Raymond Clark, Ray Ray. He`s now the -- as of right now, the suspect in the Annie Le slaying at Yale.
MAURICE PERRY, KNOWN CLARK SINCE FIRST GRADE: This is not the Raymond Clark that I know. And honestly, at the time being, I can`t say that I believe he`s guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ray Ray? Is that his nickname?
And tonight`s big issue, a theory we proposed right here on ISSUES. Did Raymond Clark fancy himself lord of the lab? We`ll investigate what some say was his need to be in charge. I am taking your phone calls.
But first, straight out to my fantastic expert panel: Drew Findling, Atlanta criminal defense attorney; Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst and Yale University law school graduate; Pat Brown, criminal profiler and CEO of the Pat Brown Criminal Profiling Agency; Dr. Dale Archer, clinical psychiatrist. Brian Santoro, who has known Raymond Clark since he was 12 joins me by phone.
Brian, hang in there. I`m going to be right with you.
But first, Randi Kaye, CNN correspondent on the ground in New Haven, Connecticut.
Randi, you have some information about how they tracked Raymond Clark? Tell us about it.
RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: I do, Jane. We got --- talked with a source today who has some very good knowledge of this investigation. It`s very close to it. And he told me that they have been tracking Raymond Clark since before Annie Le`s body was even found.
He raised their suspicion when they saw him after viewing about 700 hours of videotape from the lab building security camera. They noticed him, I`m told, on that video walking out of the building after someone, possibly him I`m told, pulled the fire alarm the day of the murder. They saw him on that videotape, walking out of the building with his head in his hands, looking especially distraught.
I can also tell you tonight that they -- the same source with knowledge of the investigation is also telling me that they did confirm that -- that the victim`s DNA was found on Raymond Clark`s body.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. OK. The victim`s DNA. Now, I`ve got to get my head around that.
Lisa Bloom, the victim`s DNA allegedly found on Raymond Clark`s body. But it was a while between when she disappeared and then was found, and when they finally picked him up. I remember asking the question when they cuffed him, well, wouldn`t he have had ample opportunity to wash his hands?
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: He`s got a problem, Jane. According to one report that I`ve seen, he told police initially that he didn`t even see her on the day that she disappeared. So he`s stuck with that story. He can`t change it and say, "Oh, well, I can explain. My DNA was on her because we hugged. We said hello. I gave her a kiss on the cheek. In the course of my lab work I cut myself and I bled on her." All that is out, if indeed he made that statement he didn`t see her that day.
So I think of all of this DNA evidence, if it`s true, it`s over for him. It doesn`t matter what the motive is. It`s over. There`s no good explanation for it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Ryan Santoro, you knew -- you know Raymond Clark. You hung out with him. Is this the Raymond Clark that you know?
RYAN SANTORO, FRIEND OF RAYMOND CLARK (via phone): I wouldn`t necessarily say that I hung out with him. I haven`t seen him for about six years. We played baseball from about 12 to 18 years old. We`re both the same age.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: OK. Then you hung out with him from 12 to 18 years old, with all due respect. If you played baseball with him. It`s a slow game. It lasts a long time. But go ahead.
SANTORO: It`s definitely not the Ray I know, or knew. Absolutely not. A lot of me and my teammates were definitely shocked over what`s going on.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m going to read some information here and then get your reaction to it. Clark allegedly sent Annie Le e-mails, criticizing her lax protocol when it came to handling the mice and other hygiene issues.
Now we`re hearing chilling descriptions of his behavior with coworkers, and they could support our theory that Clark fancied himself lord of the lab. "The Daily News" says investigators speculate his concern wasn`t animal welfare. It was, quote, "his need to be in charge."
They described him -- ABC News quotes a co-worker who called him a control freak, very officious and very demanding.
So Ryan Santoro, you played ball with him. Does that match the person you knew?
SANTORO: Not really. He just played the game competitively and went out and played hard. I wouldn`t necessarily see him being as a control freak, or anything along those lines.
But then again, you know, those are, like you said, they`re all theories. So when it comes down to it, I think the facts need to play themselves out. But in the long run, it`s definitely not the person I knew. And a lot -- a lot of people change from when they turn 18 to 24. So...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, that`s for sure. Sometimes the ones who seem like the most clean-cut end up being the kids that you`ve got to watch out for. And sometimes the ones that look like they`re trouble end up being the pussycats. You know, you can never tell.
BLOOM: Jane -- Jane, one small point. A lot of guys who commit acts of violence against women are very friendly with their male friends. We`re not seeing any ex-girlfriends coming out of the woodwork saying what a great guy he is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: No, as a matter of fact, Dr. Dale Archer, there`s an ex-girlfriend, who according to published reports that I cannot confirm, allegedly called cops when she tried to break up with him when they were back in high school. And according to that police report, she reportedly said that he forced her at one point to have sex against her will, although no charges were ever filed because she continued the relationship for a while.
DR. DALE ARCHER, CLINICAL PSYCHIATRIST: Yes, I think that you often see that with an abusive individual, that Lisa`s exactly right. They`re very, very friendly and seem totally normal to their male friends. But with their girlfriends, it`s when the controlling nature really comes to the front.
But I really think that what we have here is not the fact that he was a lab control freak or that he was efficient or demanding. We all know efficient and demanding people that can be very good at their job. I still stand by the point that this was unrequited love. And...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Me, too.
ARCHER: ... 90 percent of America has suffered unrequited love. We`ve actually done psychiatric studies on this, and we know how horrible it is.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, come on. I`ve suffered unrequited love. I didn`t bludgeon somebody.
ARCHER: No, Jane...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I suffered it several times. I just made a fool of myself. That`s all I did.
ARCHER: Well, most of us go through it. And then we`re sadder or wiser and say, "You know what? Just because I love somebody, doesn`t mean they`re going to love me." But for somebody who is right on the edge, this stress can be enough to tip them over.
(CROSSTALK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I want to look at my panel for a second. Let`s look at the whole panel. Has anybody here not suffered unrequited love, raise your hand. OK. So everybody has suffered it. All right. So that -- I mean, I understand what you`re saying, but that`s no excuse.
ARCHER: That`s very important, though, it`s not an excuse. But for somebody who is already right to that edge, this stress can be enough to tip them over the edge.
I think that he went down in that lab not to murder her, but to profess his love to her, with hope against hope that she was going to reciprocate to him. And when she did not, he absolutely snapped. This was a passionate and brutal and emotional murder. There were fabrics of the cloth found deep inside her neck.
It takes five minutes to strangle somebody. So this was very emotional in nature. And love is the strongest human emotion. And when it`s not returned in a person that`s already on the edge, this can be the result.
DREW FINDLING, CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You know, Jane, I think we`re -- I think...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In one second. We`re going to take a break. Randi Kaye, CNN correspondent, thank you so much for updating us on this story.
All right. More on the brutal murder of Annie Le in just a moment. We`re also taking your calls on this: 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297. Five young men nearly had their lives ruined by a college co-ed who lied about being raped by them. So why are prosecutors trying to protect this girl`s identity?
But first, inside the mind of an accused killer. Was Raymond Clark living separate lives? Some people describe the dark side of this accused killer. But friends see a totally different side.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PERRY: The time being, I can`t say that I believe he`s guilty.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HESLIN: In 2003, in high school, there was an altercation where Ray became involved with that girl and, whether it became physical or not, I do not know the extent of that.
MICHELLE CRISCUOLO, KNOWS RAYMOND CLARK: He never was arrested or anything like that. But it just -- it just seemed like there was a problem within the relationship. And, you know, it was something between them two.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: In 2003, Raymond Clark`s high school girlfriend filed a police report after what she says was, quote, "forced sex." Listen to what Ray`s neighbor had to say about his current relationship.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANNMARIE GOODWIN, RAYMOND CLARK`S NEIGHBOR: I could just tell you he was controlling over his girlfriend. And anytime she tried to talk to me, he would just say, "Let`s go, hurry up." I didn`t know him that well, but what I did know of him is that he was -- I did hear them yelling upstairs. Mostly him yelling at his girlfriend.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: This current Jennifer, pictured here with Raymond on the CBS.com Web site, recently made headlines. Last year she shot down rumors that an alleged affair between Raymond and a co-worker at the lab on her MySpace page. And there`s just a mountain of evidence coming in.
Randi Kaye, CNN correspondent, thanks for sticking around. You say you have some new information to give us.
KAYE: Our source with pretty good knowledge of this investigation, Jane, told me how they tracked Raymond Clark and how they eventually arrested him.
It turns out that they were tracking him from even before Annie Le`s body was found. They actually went to his parents` home, which is about 24 miles away from the Yale campus where I am right now.
And then on Sunday, the day that the body wad found, Jane, he was playing softball, and detectives were in the bleachers, in the stands watching him play softball, keeping an eye on him.
And then, of course, we know that they went to his apartment. That`s when they demanded the DNA samples, the saliva sample and a sample from under his fingernail, as well. And then eventually, they tracked him down at that Super 8 motel, also about 25 miles or so from here, and made the arrest.
But what is really interesting here is that they say that at first they didn`t want him to know they were tracking him and that they were on his trail, but then eventually they did want him to. They were almost baiting him. They were walking around, making sure their badges were displayed when they were walking around his apartment, hoping, really almost playing a mind game, hoping that he would come out and talk to him and maybe even confess.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wow. Fascinating stuff.
Pat Brown, I am always stunned when they say somebody who is suspected of a horrific crime goes and does something like play softball. I mean, that`s chilling.
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: It`s a little creepy, yes. But Jane, I want to go back to this unrequited love thing. I`m really happy with what I heard, because I`ve been angry all day -- all day about this. He killed the girl over some dirty cages. That`s just ridiculous.
The unrequited thing is not unrequited love but unrequited, "why can`t I get the cheerleader?" In other words, "I`m kind of not the most successful guy in the world. I mean, six years out of high school, I`m cleaning rat cages. All right? And here I have this girl in front of me. She is a knockout girl. I mean, Annie Le is absolutely stunningly beautiful, brilliantly educated. Why can`t I get that girl? Why is she going to go marry somebody else?"
That`s an insult to anybody who has a psychopathic nature. They believe they deserve that; they`re entitled to that. And if a woman doesn`t respond to them when they want that woman, it`s an insult to me, how dare you turn me down.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And remember, he was a member of the Asian awareness club in high school.
BROWN: Right.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: The Vietnamese-American.
Rachel in Florida, your question or thought?
BROWN: Absolutely.
CALLER: Yes, hi, Jane. I was wondering, what exactly -- have they questioned his fiancee or talked to him? They`re, you know, talking to his high school and his friends. But have they talked to his fiancee? What exactly is she saying?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, I`m sure, Lisa Bloom, that they`ve interviewed his fiancee. First of all, she worked at the lab along with his brother- in-law and his sister.
BLOOM: Well, I`m sure that they have tried to. She may have refused to cooperate. Remember, the people that we`re seeing on TV are the people who have agreed to give media interviews. That`s not the same group that have talked to the police.
So she may very well have given a police interview. She certainly has not spoken to the media yet. And I`m sure all the morning show bookers are circling her house, trying to get that interview with her. But so far she`s kept her mouth shut.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here`s another huge development. WTIC reporting today cops are interrogating another lab employee in Annie Le`s murder. Here`s what police had to say when questioned by reporters yesterday about other possible suspects.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you saying it`s possible there could be more?
CHIEF JAMES LEWIS, NEW HAVEN, CONNECTICUT, POLICE DEPARTMENT: Well, you never know where evidence will take you. I don`t have any reason to believe that. But as I told you before, we`re not -- we don`t have tunnel vision here.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. And we just mentioned Raymond Clark`s fiancee, sister and brother-in-law all work in that same animal testing lab at Yale. None reportedly has been inside the building since Clark`s arrest.
And again, "The New York Daily News" reporting Clark spent an hour with Annie Le`s lifeless body before he left.
So Drew Findling, the big question, what did he do during that hour? Obviously, they could find out if he made phone calls, looking for help in disposing the body?
FINDLING: Clearly, they`re going to put a time period together and time line to see whether or not he was text messaging or making phone calls during that period of time.
Also, obviously they`re going to make the allegation that during that period of time, if they believe he did it, which they do, that he was trying to secret away the evidence of the crime. That`s fairly obvious. They`re going to allege that.
Jane, I do want to say, though, I feel compelled to say there`s a lot of conjecture about him loving and this and that. A psychopathic comment was made. I can tell you right now that defense attorneys would be remiss not to look into psychological, psychiatric issues. And remember, we`re not necessarily talking about insanity, but you have to anticipate as a defense attorney, and these public defenders will, mitigation. If you`re getting slammed by DNA, you have to start thinking about it. And as the doctor -- Dr. Archer...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes, except...
BLOOM: He hides her body in a wall.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And guess what?
BLOOM: That sounds like premeditated murder to me.
FINDLING: Well, Dr. Archer...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Wait a second. The president of Yale says, "There`s nothing in his history that would lead us to believe that he could be capable of murder."
FINDLING: I doubt the president of Yale spending time with Willard over here. OK? So Dr. Archer...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s not insult the animals while we`re talking about this. Those animals go through a lot in those tests.
FINDLING: No, no, no. No, I think Ben was the animal. Willard was the owner. But as Dr. Archer will tell you, though, most mental illnesses so often start manifesting themselves in the early 20s.
BROWN: Oh, please.
BLOOM: And Jane, you make a good point about the animals, by the way. There was a good "New York Times" piece about how people who worked in this particular lab and who had to kill animals on a regular basis became desensitized. And how highly stressful that was to them.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: When you kill, you become accustomed to killing.
Thank you, fantastic panel.
Disgusting videos, inside Phillip Garrido`s hell hole. We`re going to show them to you, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Tonight, will the Hofstra student who lied about being gang raped ever face charges? Why are prosecutors still protecting her by refusing to reveal her identity? Police certainly wasted no time arresting the suspects and telling the whole world their names, showing their pictures.
Here`s what one of the young men told me about his horrific ordeal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: What was your reaction when you were arrested on this phony charge?
KEVIN TAVERAS, FALSELY ACCUSED OF RAPE: I couldn`t believe what was basically going through my mind. It was like a big nightmare. And I thought I was going to do time for something I didn`t do. I was going to be punished for something that I did not do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: It`s time for us all to fight -- fight against both the culture of rape and false accusations.
The accuser`s boyfriend told the "New York Post" that when he saw her Sunday morning, quote, "She looked like she just finished hot sex." The woman told her boyfriend she was raped but was reluctant to call police. Hint, hint.
Back with Lisa Bloom, CNN legal analyst.
Lisa, would we ever know the truth if there weren`t a cell phone video of this incident that one attorney said looked like a porno, not a rape?
BLOOM: Well, we wouldn`t know it as soon as we know it. And now we know conclusively that she was not raped. It`s very similar to the Duke rape case, but that took a year and a half for those guys to be exonerated. And some of them say they`ll never get their reputation back.
I agree with you, Jane. Look, as somebody who cares passionately about rape victims, this case -- it hurts me to say it, but she should be prosecuted for bringing false charges. These men did nothing wrong. They shouldn`t have their name dragged through the mud. And frankly, she doesn`t help legitimate rape victims by making a false claim.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely not. This is their worst-case scenario.
We have to ask why police acted so hastily in this case. It`s not like they aren`t aware of the history of false accusations in some other cases. You just mentioned it, Lisa, 2006, three Duke lacrosse players falsely accused of rape by a stripper. Charges against them eventually dropped. Prosecutor Mike Nifong disbarred for pursuing the case, even though he had evidence no rape ever occurred.
Then, even before that, 1987 -- I covered this case -- 15-year-old Tawana Brawley claimed she`d been raped by a group of white men. Reverend Al Sharpton became a crusader for her. But eventually, a grand jury decided there was no evidence that Tawana Brawley was ever raped.
So they know that this can happen, and yet they just put their photos and names all over the media.
BLOOM: Well, that`s right. And they shouldn`t do that. But we have to be clear that there are about the same number of false claims of rape as there are for other crimes. I`ve read two or three percent. Same for theft, same for property crimes.
So let`s not get crazy and assume that all claims are false. Or even 50 percent of claims are false. Of course, law enforcement should take every claim seriously. But they shouldn`t drag people`s names through the mud unless they have some substantial evidence.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Lisa`s, here`s my problem with this. The prosecutor said in a news conference that, as soon as they started talking to her, they could tell there was something fishy in Denmark, and this story had a lot of holes in it, inconsistencies. So how come the cops didn`t pick up on those inconsistencies before they held their news conference, announcing all these arrests?
BLOOM: Well, you`re absolutely right. That`s a huge drop of the ball by law enforcement and by the prosecutors. I think we should be more careful in this country, when charges are announced, not to attack people, not to drag people through the mud.
And I know, Jane, you`re always careful to say, allegedly, and to remind people of the presumption of innocence. And when there is not strong evidence from the beginning, we have to be very careful how we talk about these things.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Absolutely.
BLOOM: Because it`s very hard once these claims are made for somebody to get their reputation back.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Got to leave it right there. Absolutely right.
You know her as the host of HLN`s "Morning Express." Robin Meade revealing a whole other side in her new book, how she conquered her demons.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Brace yourself for the very first look inside Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors. More than 100 new photos were just released of this disgusting hell hole.
It`s a firsthand look at what police say was Jaycee Dugard`s nightmare. What insight does this give into the sick mind of a rapist and accused kidnapper?
Plus, from battling panic attacks to becoming HLN`s morning sunshine, Robin Meade is going to be with us to talk about her shockingly honest new book at her once secret battle with anxiety attacks.
What could be a bigger expression of self-confidence than jumping out of a plane, and free falling hundreds of feet? That`s exactly what the bubbly, beautiful host of "Morning Express" did with former President George H.W. Bush. All the more reason to be shocked -- there she is with the former prez -- shocked that Robin Meade reveals in her new book that panic attacks almost caused her on-camera career to collapse.
Jump out of that plane, Robin. Three, two, one, there you go. Wow. That`s a person who lacks self-confidence? Robin writes about her ordeal in stunning detail so others can learn how she battled panic attacks and won. Her amazing book, "Morning Sunshine: How to radiate confidence and feel it, too."
We had a very revealing conversation about her struggles.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Robin, welcome.
I read your book. And I really loved it. I want to congratulate you, first of all, on having the courage to honestly discuss a problem others might want to keep secret. Why have you decided to tell this very personal story about your battle with your insecurities?
ROBIN MEADE, HLN HOST, "MORNING EXPRESS": Yes. You know what, for a long time I kept it secret, too. And it did (INAUDIBLE) to me to keep it under wraps. For me the book is about my story, and the way I dealt with panic attacks and anxiety. Really debilitating panic attacks.
But it`s under the umbrella of self-confidence. Because who among us has not had some issue with self-confidence. So I wrote this book, and I want people like buy a book and then walk away and go, "I didn`t learn anything from her."
It`s really revealing. I think it`s funny sometimes in that I put out there stuff that maybe you wouldn`t normally hear from a news anchor. Like all my little weird neuroses like the things I have to have on my bed stand at night.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s one of the reasons I loved it, it was so honest and it revealed so much. And they say you can save your face or you can save your heinie, I guess you chose to save your heinie.
But Robin, you lead what many would see as a very charmed life. When I was reading the book I was like, wow, she was the homecoming queen, which -- let`s face it -- almost every girl dreams of that. You were also Miss Ohio. That has to be a huge validation.
It seems like you were one of those people who had it all. But as they say, happiness is an inside job and we can`t compare what`s on the inside with what`s on the outside. But why such a disparity between what was the appearance and what was happening inside?
MEADE: Yes. So I think that my panic attacks and anxiety manifested themselves physically after a lifetime of really making my value, to me my value was, whether someone liked me. So is someone didn`t like me, and I couldn`t make you like me, then I was of no value to myself. Isn`t that the weirdest thing?
In other words, I was putting everyone else`s opinion about me on a pedestal above my own opinion of myself. So my self-worth was whether they liked me or not. Whereas a lot of people go, self-esteem is how you feel about how you look. It wasn`t that for me. It was whether I could win you over. And what I could do to make you like me. That was my power or where I was powerless.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: One of my favorite parts of the book, embracing your inner bitch. I can say that because it`s in here.
MEADE: Because it`s Jane Velez-Mitchell, we can say that. I love it. I love it.
You know what? I haven`t been able to say this on a TV show yet. I think when it comes to self-confidence, and really feeling self-esteem, so many of us will dismiss little parts of ourselves that we don`t want to embrace. We just want to say that`s really not a part of me. For me I wanted to be Pollyanna, apparently because I wanted to make you like me.
So therefore I would push away the bitchy part of me. I would conceal that bitch part of me which we all have. I don`t mean you should fly around on a broom and zap your neighbor. But we have parts of us that aren`t very likable that we kind of keep hidden from the public.
My husband deals with it at home, right? He has to deal with all sides. I`m saying that I think in order to be really confident and have self-esteem all of us need to embrace all thoughts parts of our personality that we`d rather hide away.
So, you know, what is it like being nice anyway? So many of us women I think are like, we should be nice. Well, I think that you should be helpful to people and kind, but what is nice? Where is that going to get you anyway?
Embrace the bitch. Let`s go on a bitch recognition campaign.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m embracing my inner bitch as of right now. Watch out people. I`m not a people pleaser anymore.
MEADE: There you go. It`s tough, because I think a lot of people are people pleasers. I fall in that category. Jane, you`ve admitted you`ve fallen in that category. That is what you call self-confidence.
On the back of my book, Deepak Chopra wrote something that was very -- it really touched the heart, I think, of the issue. Self-esteem comes from within. Self-confidence is what you get from other people. Self-esteem is right there. Nobody can touch it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Right. And it`s ego based, to seek approval from people is an ego based people. Whereas to be of service to people is really not about your ego, it`s about helping others.
I have to tell you, I read your book, and I did one of the exercises because like you, I have problems. And you say if you find out how your problem is benefiting you, and you write it down, then you can get rid of that problem.
So I took a problem that I have, which I won`t share, and I wrote down three pages of how I was benefiting. First I thought just like you, I`m not benefiting. No, I was. I am -- every problem we have, on some subconscious level, we`re getting something out of it, otherwise we would let it go. I thought that was brilliant.
MEADE: Thank you. It was a real mind flip if you can tell yourself, this thing I really hate and it is such a big, you know, mountain of a problem in my life, is really a benefit to me.
So for me these panic attacks, I had them about ten years ago, on the air no less. I`m supposed to be a news anchor, journalist with the voice of information. And I could barely breathe for some reason.
I started having these panic attacks. Not stage fright, but panic attacks because I wanted to be perfect. I wanted the audience to like me. If I screwed up, oh, no, I might lose my job. So I had to do a mind flip and think, how are these panic attacks a benefit to me. Well, they don`t. They suck.
But I had to make my mind go, well, the panic attacks will make you examine why are you thinking this way that led to your body to manifest an anxiety attack. Or you know what, I wanted to find out what was wrong with my body, so I started eating good and I started exercising. So therefore, I had to come full circle and go, you know what, these are of benefit to me.
You face your worst fear, it`s no longer your fear.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I love it. I tell everybody out there, read this book. You will get something out of it. And do the exercises like I did. And you`ll help eliminate some of your problems.
Robin Meade -- so great to talk to you. Thank you so much for joining me. It was really great. Exhilarating and I love the fact that we both love to talk about our problems, girlfriend.
MEADE: And on that note, look at Jane`s new book as well "I Want."
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Thank you so much. Right back at you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Great interview. Back to the harsh reality of our show.
A shocking twist in the Haleigh Cummings case: Misty Croslin`s brother recently arrested. Now cops questioning him about Haleigh`s disappearance.
Plus, new pictures of Phillip Garrido`s alleged house of horrors: this place is a mess. But what does it tell us about the alleged kidnapper?
We`re taking your calls, people; 1-877-JVM-SAYS, 1-877-586-7297.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: A first hand look inside Phillip Garrido`s twisted world. New pictures just released. We`re going to show you the hell hole where he allegedly kept Jaycee Dugard.
But first tonight`s "Top of the Block."
A bizarre new twist in the Haleigh Cummings disappearance: cops question four -- count them -- four prison inmates in the search for missing 6-year-old Haleigh. And one of the inmates just happens to be Misty Croslin`s brother.
Remember Misty, she`s that chain smoking teenager married to Haleigh`s dad Ronald. She was babysitting Haleigh the night she was abducted but claims to have slept through the entire thing.
And as if this case couldn`t get any more bizarre, remember last month Haleigh`s dad was arrested after he allegedly got into a fight with family members. Turns out he was fighting with Misty`s brother, Hank, the same guy who was just questioned by police.
Did this fight have anything to do with Haleigh`s disappearance? Do cops have any suspects? This family really has to get their act together if they have any hope of finding this precious child.
And that is tonight`s "Top of the Block."
Horrifying, and I mean horrifying new developments just in to HLN. Police have found another bone on Phillip Garrido`s property. And cadaver dogs hit on a human scent. Are human remains buried there?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SGT. J.D. NELSON, ALAMEDA COUNTY SHERIFF`S OFFICE: After the dog gave what is determined to be somewhat of a tentative look at the -- or tentative feel for the cadaver, we brought in the second dog, and he also indicated on that particular part of the property.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Just now, cops announce ground penetrating radar confirms there is something under that spot. Is it a dead body? Does this terrifying den hold clues into the abduction of two little girls?
Plus, gruesome new photos of Phillip Garrido`s house of horrors: we`re taking you deep inside the rapist and accused kidnapper`s filthy -- and I mean filthy -- beyond comprehension filthy lair. Did Jaycee Dugard`s alleged captor hold other children hostage in this terrifying madhouse?
Check out what we spotted in Garrido`s dining room. How crazy is this. It looks like a portrait of Garrido with a little girl. Who is that little girl?
Police continue to dig through truckloads of trash searching for bones, teeth. In this chilling interview from jail, Garrido hints of the nightmares that occurred at his home.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
PHILLIP GARRIDO, ACCUSED KIDNAPPER AND RAPIST: Wait until you hear the story of what took place at this house. And you`re going to be absolutely impressed. It`s a disgusting thing that took place in the beginning. But I turned my life completely around, and to be able to understand it, you have to start there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Oh, really. That`s a completely turned-around life, that living room there. It will take days; the cops say the search will provide answers.
Straight out to my fantastic expert panel. Criminal profiler, Pat Brown, let me ask you, what are those photos of that mind-boggling mess, just filth, disarray, gross stuff piled, the dirty dishes, it goes on and on, what does it say about this man`s state of mind?
PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: I would say it`s just not terribly interested in that aspect of his life. He`s too interested in what he can control when it comes down to little people.
What`s really interesting is did he get hold of a couple of little girls prior to Jaycee who didn`t cooperate Jaycee did? Because you know, it takes a while to -- you have to get the right kid. If the kid doesn`t seem to go along with the program and objects too much, you know, you might want to get yourself another one.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Well, yes, that`s what`s really scary.
Lisa Bloom, they`re saying that there are concrete slabs on the property, and those concrete slabs could hide the scent of human decomposition. That`s why they brought in the cadaver dogs. Archaeological dogs who can tell whether these are very old bones, let`s say a Native American burial ground, or if these bones are more recent.
LISA BLOOM, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Yes. And if there`s anybody capable of making a makeshift grave, it`s Phillip Garrido. Look at the elaborate structures of sheds and tents that he had in the backyard to hide Jaycee and her two daughters.
I think these photos of the home would be prima facie evidence in a court of law of child neglect if anybody knew that he had kids.
But what about, Jane, these probation officers who were supposed to be doing random home visits to his home? They said they didn`t go into the backyard, but even if you went into the house and you saw that filth and the way this man was living, and you saw a picture of him with a little girl -- good catch, by the way -- shouldn`t that have led to more of an investigation? How did they allow this man to go unsearched for so many years?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: You know what I think? Dr. Dale Archer, the outside of the house -- and I`ve seen photographs of it -- looks neat; the inside obviously just a total sty.
I`m getting the feeling they didn`t go in. The parole officers never went in. I`m getting the feeling this was just such window dressing because the neighbors could have told them that they had teenage girls there because they went to their parties.
One step inside this house, as Lisa just said, would show you everything you need to know that somebody is cuckoo for cocoa puffs. And yet, they`re like, "He`s on parole for year after year, decade after decade, no problem."
DALE ARCHER, PSYCHIATRIST: The smartest person in the whole case was the neighbor who called in and said, "He is a psychotic sex addict." She was absolutely right. And we know that one of the signs of psychosis is a thought disorder which is jumbled into logical thinking. And very often these folks manifest this externally with very filthy and cluttered living conditions. So I think one look inside of this house should have been a red flag to any trained individual.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s what I said. I don`t think they looked inside Drew.
ARCHER: And I agree. I don`t think they did.
DREW FINDLING, ATLANTA CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Jane, I`m going to tell you -- Jane, I`ve talked about it on this show before. Politicians have taken the sexual registry which had good intent to go after predators, track predators, and they`ve expanded it and expanded it to cover false imprisonment and domestic cases.
BLOOM: But this guy is convicted of kidnapping of a stranger and forcible rape.
FINDLING: Hold it a second. But the problem is that the probation officer and parole officers that monitor people in the sexual registry are overworked. They`re running around checking on people who shouldn`t be on the registry. They should be looking after people like this person. But they don`t have the opportunity.
The same thing we looked at when Haleigh Cummings` case first started. There were so many people for them to look after.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I don`t buy it. And I don`t think Lisa Bloom buys it either.
ARCHER: I don`t buy it.
BLOOM: I do think that they`re overstretched and you can only expect so much.
FINDLING: Thank you.
BLOOM: And if we the citizens don`t fund them, we`re not going to get the kind of searches that we want.
But in this case, this is a guy who was convicted of grabbing a stranger, a 25-year-old back in 1977, taking her to a storage area that he had constructed for the purpose of raping her and then raped her for many hours. That was what he was convicted of.
This is a guy who should have been watched closely. And since we know he construct special shelters for raping people, my goodness, how did they fail to check the backyard?
FINDLING: The problem is the people that should be checking on him are checking on people they have no business checking on. It`s something that needs to be addressed. It`s hampering law enforcement. And ultimately what happens is somebody is victimized for 19 years, because politicians got in the way, so they can get a few extra votes.
ARCHER: I do not think you can use the sex register...
FINDLING: That is ridiculous to blame this on the politicians.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: I`m not going to blame everything on lack of funding.
ARCHER: I agree with you Jane.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: That`s just like a catch-all. Everything`s a lack of funding. You know what? Sometimes it`s a lack of brain power to put two and two together, when the neighbors were doing that.
ARCHER: Absolutely.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: And I just think that it`s laziness really; it`s doing the least you can do. Let me say one more thing.
(CROSS TALK)
BROWN: Jane, the real problem here -- the real problem is he should have gone to jail for life. He should have gotten life; you could end all of this problem.
Any man who steps across a line to abduct a stranger, hold her in a shed and rape her, that`s it. Life in prison. You don`t have to worry about the parole officers. You don`t have to go to a house and check anything out. It`s just ridiculous.
BLOOM: And it`s prioritizing cases where women and children are the victims. I think that`s a factor as well.
(CROSS TALK)
FINDLING: All they had to do was go in the house.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let me just -- let me go back to the parole issue for one second.
When the parole officer was called by those quick-witted law enforcement officers who saw this guy with his teenage daughters, the University of Berkeley Campus, she called them and said, he`s got two daughters and he`s on parole. And they said, oh, no, he doesn`t have daughters. Maybe they`re granddaughters.
In other words, even when presented with the facts, the parole officer said, oh, you know, he doesn`t have daughters. Maybe they`re granddaughters. That to me ...
BLOOM: That`s the thing about not making the safety of women and children a priority. He doesn`t have any granddaughters. He`s a convicted rapist. Put two and two together and prioritize the safety of girls and women. I think that`s the key factor.
ARCHER: And again we`re talking about taking one step inside the house looking around with a complaint that`s been filed and think, "Oh wow. There is something wrong here. This needs to be investigated further." Because one look in that house, any trained individual would have known there`s something going on. They have to investigate.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Let`s face it, if he said that, it would be more paperwork to do.
All right. Hang on, everybody. Hang on.
Phillip Garrido admitted to using LSD and acid. This, by the way, national recovery month -- great time to get sober. I`ve struggled with addiction. In my book, "I want," I reveal details about battle with alcohol and how I finally got sober more than 14 years ago.
You can order my recovery memoir, out now in bookstores or click on cnn.com/jane. Look for the order session.
They say the only thing that has to change is everything and that`s exactly what happened to me. It a shocker.
And more shockers from the Garrido house of horrors.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATHERINE CALLAWAY HALL, GARRIDO`S VICTIM: He tied my head to my knees and my hands were handcuffed behind my back. He threw a coat over my head so I was below visibility in the car and he took me to a warehouse in Reno; a warehouse in Reno in a very desolate area.
LARRY KING, CNN HOST: Were you fearing for your life?
HALL: I was. I thought I was dead.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Katherine Callaway-Hall kidnapped and raped by Phillip Garrido. He went to prison but was paroled 40 years early. Then he allegedly kidnapped Jaycee Dugard.
Right now cops are searching his property to find out if he has more victims and they`re coming up with bones. The question is, are they human bones?
All right. The phone lines lighting up on this one. Amira, Florida, your question or thought, ma`am.
AMIRA, FLORIDA: Hello?
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Hi. We are on the air.
AMIRA: Hi. My thing is -- my comment or question is, looking in his house, very disorganized and messy, could that -- in that aspect of his life reflect his need to control, for example, Jaycee Dugard and control these women? Could that be some sort of psychological...
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Dr. Dale?
ARCHER: No. I think the messiness was a result of his psychosis. I think this man was psychotic and that was manifest externally in the filth and dirt and grime that was in the house.
But he also had a psychopathic side and a sexual addiction side. That`s what prompted him to go out and commit these rapes and kidnappings and all of the atrocities that he did. So I think that the two were interlinked but they`re not the same thing
VELEZ-MITCHELL: All right. This search could blow two cold cases wide open: Michaela Garecht abducted in 1988. Katrina Rodriguez was the only witness. She told ABC she was shocked when she saw Garrido`s face and car on television.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATRINA RODRIGUEZ, WITNESS TO GARECHT`S KIDNAPPING: I have not seen a photo that looks more like Michaela`s kidnapper than him. It put a pit right in my stomach. I called Michaela`s mother right away and I told her, you know, "This could be the car."
(END VIDEO CLIP)
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Here is the very sketch Katrina helped police draw in 1988. And there`s Garrido`s mug shot from the shot with the long hair.
Pat Brown, the resemblance is bone-chilling.
BROWN: And not surprising because I don`t think this just started -- we know it didn`t start with Jaycee so there`s always a long, long, long history of this. It`s pretty sad but I don`t think you`re going to find a good ending with it.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: Yes. Well, they got at least one bone that they say is probably human Drew Findling. And now they`re digging up for other bones. They`re finding other bones; they`re having them tested to see if they`re human or animal. But then we heard cadaver dogs hit on a location and those cadaver dogs hit when they spot human decomposition.
FINDLING: Hey, listen, I may be a criminal defense attorney but I`ve now spent more than half my life doing this work. There`s not going to be a good ending to this.
I looked at the picture and it is uncanny. I`ll tell you from cases in the past it just didn`t start with this young lady. This has probably been going on for a highly.
BLOOM: And this is right after he got out of prison.
FINDLING: Again, I don`t want to confuse the fact that this guy was on the registry, Jane. In other words, there were certain rules he had to follow and had to be monitored regarding his involvement with children, even his own children. That`s what makes this so inexcusable.
VELEZ-MITCHELL: We have to leave it right there.
A benefit concert this weekend in South Lake Tahoe to raise money for Jaycee; her stepdad plans to go. Way to go, community. I love to hear that.
Thank you, fabulous panel.
Remember, click on cnn.com/jane, pre-order your copy of my book "I Want."
You`re watching ISSUES.
END
