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Murder At Yale

Aired September 18, 2009 - 21:00   ET


DR. PHIL MCGRAW, GUEST HOST: Tonight, inside the mind of the man charged with the murder of Yale student Annie Le.

Who is Raymond Clark?

What led the law to him?

And why did his neighbor get bad vibes?

Plus, the DNA evidence that may seal his fate. You won't believe where police found it.

Then, she witnessed the abduction of a playmate more than 20 years ago.

Could the criminal who grabbed her screaming friend and stuffed her in a car be Phillip Garrido?

The hunt for evidence continues as investigators and police dogs sort through piles of filth in the condemned home of Jaycee Dugard's accused kidnapper, next on LARRY KING LIVE.

Good evening.

I'm Dr. Phil McGraw sitting in for Larry tonight.

Now, we begin with the murder at Yale and developments in the case against Raymond Clark, the man charged with murdering grad student Annie Le.

Let's get the latest from CNN's Randi Kaye in New Haven, Connecticut -- Randi.

RANDI KAYE, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Dr. Phil, we have a lot of new information to share with you tonight. First off, investigators really focused on Ray Clark after they viewed, I'm told, more than 700 hours of videotape from the lab building's security cameras. And according to our source with good knowledge of this investigation, they saw Ray Clark on that video and he really stood out to them.

Here's why. They say that he left that building after someone, possibly Ray Clark himself, pulled the fire alarm on the day of the murder. He left that building with his head in his hands, looking distraught. That caught their attention. That same source tell me -- tells me that Clark's DNA clearly connects him to the murder scene, indicating that the victim's DNA was found on the body of Raymond Clark. Also, I can tell you that authorities were tracking Ray Clark well before Annie Le's body was even found. In fact, they started tracking him the night before. And on Sunday, the day that the body was found, I'm told that Ray Clark was playing softball on that Sunday and detectives were in the crowd making sure he didn't flee, watching his every move. At first, Dr. Phil, they didn't want him to know that they were tracking him. And then as time went on, they did want him to. In fact, they stood outside his apartment building, I'm told, and even let their badges show. So he knew there were more than half a dozen detectives out there watching his every move. They were hoping that maybe he would come out and talk to them, Dr. Phil.

MCGRAW: But, Randi, have we learned anything about the relationship between these two before?

Was there e-mail contact?

Do we have any history of them interacting that we know about?

MCGRAW: Well, we know that he was not a student there. The suspect in this case, was not a student here at Yale. He was a lab technician, sort of the low man on the totem pole, keeping track of the animals that Annie Le, actually, the victim in this case, and her team, were using for research. She was doing diabetes and cancer research.

He reportedly, according to some media reports, did text her that day, having to do with the condition of the cages that her mice were in. But as far as their relationship, it's really unclear, even at this point. Faculty members say they certainly saw each other in the hallway. But just how much they had to do with each other is still unclear. Even tonight, the chief of police here saying that a motive for this -- for this case and for this murder may never be known. So a lot of questions still tonight.

MCGRAW: Well, Randi, I actually worked in a rat lab when I was a graduate student back in Texas. And I find it odd that a lab technician that comes in the evenings or whatever and cleans up would have the phone number of a student there.

Do we have any idea how or why he knew this person?

MCGRAW: You know, to be honest with you, a lot of us were talking about this even -- even when this first happened. And there is no indication how he may have gotten it or how well he knew Annie Le in this case. Of course, there's been a lot of talk about whether or not they had a relationship and maybe he knew her personally or more personally. But the chief of police here in New Haven has said that is absolutely not true, there was no romantic relationship.

The only thing, really -- of course, we don't have this confirmed, but maybe in a -- in a lab like that, there were postings for the staff or postings for the lab technicians of phone numbers in case of an emergency or if somebody needed to be reached. But still, no real clear word on exactly how he had her phone number and why he may have been texting her. MCGRAW: Well, it is a puzzle.

And the question is, who is the real Raymond Clark?

Now, joining us from New Haven is Thomas Kaplan, editor-in-chief of the "Yale Daily News".

And we also welcome criminal profiler, Pat Brown, who's in Washington.

Let me start with you, Thomas.

Have we learned anything more about the relationship between the two or how he would know her or how he would have her phone number?

THOMAS KAPLAN, EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, "YALE DAILY NEWS": Well, it's a great question. I think -- I think what is thought right now is perhaps they did have some contact in the laboratory, given that Annie worked with these mice and Raymond Clark, he took care of them. It seems that's the only way they came into contact. There have been reports of -- of e-mails or perhaps text messages between them. But clearly, no romantic link, according to the police. But it is kind of a mystery what the contact was and what their professional relationship was like.

MCGRAW: Is there any buzz around the lab now about what kind of employee this guy was?

I mean some suggested that maybe he was highly controlling and this was kind of his fiefdom.

What are you learning just from the buzz around the lab?

KAPLAN: Yes. There have been those media reports saying he was a control freak, he was very territorial, very protective of his laboratory. But according to Yale officials, Raymond Clark's supervisor said he's had no disciplinary problems, no problems in the lab, no problems working with other researchers. So it's kind of a perplexing issue right now. No one seems to really know whether to believe the, you know, stories from folks who know him, saying he might be a control freak or the story from the supervisor saying no, no problem here, he's been a fine employee.

MCGRAW: Well, criminal profiler Pat Brown is with us, also.

Pat, is this a case of -- of workplace violence?

What is the motive here?

Is anything being discovered that gives some insight to this?

PAT BROWN, CRIMINAL PROFILER: Well, Dr. Phil, everybody's been talking about how this is workplace violence. And it really bothers me because yes, this did occur at the workplace. But incidents like this occur everywhere. We have courthouse incidents where ex-husbands shoot their wives. And we have, you know, women being murdered in parks. We don't call that courthouse violence and park violence. We -- you know, we call it violence against women.

And in this particular case, we don't know the motive. And as the police say, we may never because, you know, he's not going to tell us and his defense attorney is going to make up some garbage that's not going to be true to get him off on some kind of snap -- you know, I snapped and went crazy plea. And -- but I think we can start looking back at his history. And I think in the following -- in the days to come, we're going to see people coming out, we're going to talk about what happened with him in high school, when his buddies said we liked that guy and his girlfriend said, yes, but he forced me to have sex.

And this time now, we're talking six years, what happened -- what -- you know, did he not go on to college?

Why is he a lab tech cleaning rat cages?

And did he have an obsession with this woman, who was way above him?

And did he want -- did he want her but she was like the beauty queen that he could never get and, you know, he was trying to -- you know, too high to get something, getting another obsession and she wouldn't give him the time of day and it -- it ticked him off.

MCGRAW: Well, we're going to take a break right now. And, Pat, I've got a hundred questions for you so, so stick right in there.

Forensic exports -- experts join us with their insights about what evidence is known whenever we come back.


MCGRAW: We're back with Thomas Kaplan, editor-in-chief of the "Yale Daily News"; criminal profiler Pat Brown; and famed forensic expert, Dr. Henry Lee, professor of forensic science at the University of New Haven and the author of "Cracking Cases: The Science of Solving Crimes."

Now, Pat Brown, let he come back to you right away here, because you alluded to something before we were on the break. We do have a report that in 2003, when Clark was a high school senior, his then girlfriend told police that he had forced her to have sex with him and confronted her when she said she wanted to break up. Now, she didn't press charges.

What does this mean to you, as a profiler, about understanding this behavior that he's now accused of?

BROWN: Well, that's a pretty scary behavior. Of course, we don't have any proof that it's true, maybe a he said/she said. But apparently it was taken pretty seriously by the police, at least.

And you have to wonder what kind of guy does this kind of thing?

What kind of man forces sex on a woman or what kind of man won't let the woman go?

And there's something else very fascinating. At that point, he joined an Asian club. Now, if he turns out to be the right guy -- and, of course, we all think he probably is with all the evidence coming up. But if he committed this crime, he's not the type of person that has a lot of empathy for other people and wants to do a lot of charity work.

So you wonder, why is he joining this Asian club?

Is it to look for women?

Because a lot of American guys think those -- those American women are too tough. They're too -- they're too controlling. So if I can get myself an Asian girl, hey, I've heard that they're easier, that -- I mean easier to control and they're smaller little packages and maybe I can have some luck with them.

Isn't it odd that he picks Annie Le to come in that day to the lab?

My guess is that he did have a thing for her and it's the thing that he's had with women all along -- he wants women to control and he gets angry and feels rejected...

MCGRAW: So you...

BROWN: ...when he can't have them.

MCGRAW: So you don't think it's a coincidence that this happened just a few days before her wedding?

BROWN: Absolutely not. I think that he might have been, you know, watching her. And a lot of these stalker types, they're -- that's -- the fantasy is going on in their head. And sometimes the victim has no clue what they're thinking. They just keep watching and watching and thinking, I could have that girl and why can't I have that girl?

And then suddenly, he realizes, you know, she's picking some other guy. She's going off with him. I'm never going to have that girl. You know, it's kind of like the -- the 50-year-old guy at the bar with the big -- with the big gut and he's looking over there at the 25-year-old, you know, college girl. And he, you know, he wanders over there and says, hey, hey, babe, do you want to go home?

And she's like you've got to be kidding?

And he gets real angry because he can't get her. But of course she's not going to go with him. No, he's not at the same level. And he says, she's rejecting me. And that's what we have with sometimes people who aren't doing as well in life. They look too high. They want the cheerleader and they can't get that and then they feel rejected over it.

But that's a psychopathic kind of rejection. We're talk -- talking about regular people.

MCGRAW: Well, and I -- you know, one of the things that I've observed over the years with psychopathic personalities -- sometimes referred to as sociopaths or anti-social personality disorders...

BROWN: Right.

MCGRAW: these people, when they run out of socially acceptable ways to express themselves, when they have an inability to influence people by word, then they resort to the frustration deeds, which usually is violence. And I'm wondering if that's what happened in this case. Maybe he was getting frustrated. She was dazed from marrying someone else. It was wrecking his fantasy and so he lashed out because he ran out of ways to express or influence.

BROWN: I -- I totally agree with you, Dr. Phil. I think that's what it is. I don't think it has anything to do with cleaning rat cages, you know, and -- because there are a lot of other people that work there.

Why her and why now?

I totally agree with you. I think that's what the motive was behind this. And I think we're going to find out more about his personality that will line up with this in the days to come and we can get rid of this silly concept that he was -- it was just some workplace violence thing.

MCGRAW: Well, Dr. Henry Lee, how solid is the evidence on this?

Do they have this guy at this point?

What do they have?

DR. HENRY LEE, PROFESSOR, FORENSIC SCIENCE, UNIVERSITY OF NEW HAVEN: Well, the official report, of course, the victim died of a neck compression. And the evidence, basically, there are a lot of videotapes and swipe card records, in addition, of course, to the DNA evidence.

Apparently, according to the news reports, they found her DNA on his shoes and also his DNA on her clothing. Those clothing material was found on the top of the ceiling tile. This is extremely important. Now you have the linkage. You put the victim and suspect in a close contact range. Also, you put the victim and suspect in one location. And that that's why they wait until the DNA result to make the arrest.

MCGRAW: OK. A reminder, Raymond Clark is innocent until proven guilty, despite what seems to be a mounting amount of evidence.

A criminologist joins us next.

Back with our guests in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) MCGRAW: Well, you didn't hit the wrong channel button. You are watching LARRY KING LIVE.

I'm Dr. Phil McGraw.

I'm sitting in for Larry tonight.

And we're talking about the murder of Yale grad student Annie Le with Thomas Kaplan, editor-in-chief of the "Yale Daily News;" criminal profiler, Pat Brown; forensics expert, Dr. Henry Lee; and joining us from New York, criminologist and attorney, Casey Jordan.

Casey, let me start with you. Anything that you know new about this case that would help us understand what in the world happened here?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST & ATTORNEY: Well, again, I know as much as everybody else knows from -- from reading the newspapers. And as much as I understand that it's a lot more complex than just a workplace violence case, I think it's really fascinating the sort of work that he did. And I do think that he suffered from deep insecurities. Probably, you know, we read in the paper, that his position was a notch above custodian and that there was sometimes, you know, even though they worked very closely with these research students, there was a hierarchy there.

And his job, of course, started in the washroom. He washed cages and moved big 40 pound bags of -- of pet food. And he really was something of an assistant, you know, at the bottom level to these Ph.D. students at one of the most, you know, prestigious universities in the world.

So that dichotomy, that -- that, probably, a need to overcompensate for this deep insecurity could contribute to that whole power control debate that we're having right now, if that was really part of his personality that it caused him to decompensate, if there was a confrontation between him and the victim.

MCGRAW: Well, Casey, clearly, we have a hierarchy here and there's a hierarchy everywhere. But people don't, just because they're lower down the -- the power chain, don't aggress against somebody in this way. Now, he hasn't been convicted of this. It's still an accusation.

But what would make somebody snap and go this violent?

I mean I understand the resentment being down the chain.

But what would cause somebody to snap this way?

JORDAN: I think there are a lot of variables involved here and I think Pat touched on a lot of them earlier. You know, there may have been a romantic interest in -- in Annie Le. But it could also have been one of those things that was masked in trying to prove himself to her and maybe she either didn't notice him or criticized the way he was keeping the cages. Maybe he didn't like the way that she dealt with the animals.

As I understand it, if anything goes wrong -- because, as you know, Dr. Phil, animal ethics is a very hot topic in research. And if any of these animals are not handled in the most careful manner, guess who pays for it?

Even if the student makes a mistake, the lab technician is going to catch flak for it. So we had some reports of him being rude to some of the students and some of the workers there.

And again, it all is part of the mix of his personality, the working conditions and -- and his interaction with the people. If he had a romantic interest in her, this, on top of all of the stress of his work world, could have created this -- this situation in which the -- the crime could happen. But it was definitely precipitated by some sort of confrontation that they had to have had that day.

MCGRAW: Well, clearly, the question then becomes, were there warning signs?

And if so, did we miss them and how did we miss them?

More on the dark side of human behavior, when we come back.


MCGRAW: We're back tonight talking about the tragic murder of Annie Le at Yale University.

And, you know, we were just talking with a criminologist and a profiler about why somebody does this sort of thing.

And, you know, I've had so many people ask me, Dr. Phil, how did we not see this coming?

And the problem is that you can look at all kinds of psychological profiles and they don't very well predict whether someone is going to turn to violence or not. You'll look at somebody like the university shooting in Virginia two years ago and you see all of these things after the fact that seem to explain the behavior. But the problem is, not everybody that does the kind of behaviors that people point to afterwards become violent.

So you can explain it after the fact with a lot of speculation, but it doesn't mean that you can predict it. And that's one of the problems here.

Now, two of Raymond Clark's friends were Larry's guests on the show last night.

Let's take a listen to what they had to say.


LARRY KING, HOST: OK. Maurice, you were a childhood friend of Raymond's since first grade. What do you make of this?

MAURICE PERRY, FRIEND OF RAYMOND CLARK: It's very shocking to me. This is not the Raymond Clark that I know. And honestly, I -- at the time being, I can't say that I believe he's guilty. I mean I've known him so long, I just can't picture him doing something like this. No, not at all.

KING: Have you ever known him to be violent?

PERRY: No. Not at all. I've known him to be outgoing, happy, athletic, fun. Violent -- not at all.


MCGRAW: Pat -- Pat Brown, if I can ask you, we were listening to Casey Jordan talk just before we heard the -- the friends discussing things and she was suggesting that there were problems associated in the workplace, that -- maybe sensitivity about the way the animals were being treated and the fact that there are reports that he had berated researchers for minor infractions. And so she suggests that maybe there was a workplace dynamic here. But you don't agree with that. You think this had to have some type of stronger emotional motivation than this, I didn't like the way you handled that mouse.

BROWN: Right. I think he'll have issues every place he goes in life. So it doesn't matter where he's at, he's going to have the little -- little things he gets irritated with other people, because they're not respecting him and they're doing things that he doesn't agree with and they're not saying you're right and I'm wrong. He doesn't like that.

I think this confrontation was set up by him. So I don't think they got in a confrontation. I think he set it up so he could get her in there, so he could tell her, you know, where she was wrong; so he could elevate himself above her; so he could get her to beg, he could get her to grovel. In other words, if you can't get what you want, you destroy it. And I think that's where he was at. Now, I don't think he premeditated this to the point where he thought he was going to kill her that day. But I think he was angry to the point where he realized she was never going to, you know, come to him. She was never going to say, yes, you're -- you're an OK guy or you're smart or whatever -- whatever he was looking for from her -- I want to be your girlfriend.

He wasn't going to get his little prize and he wasn't going to get her to respect him. So he brought her in there to tear her apart.

MCGRAW: All right...

BROWN: And the problem is, when she probably stood there going, what are you talking about, he couldn't get her to grovel and that was what sent him into the rage. And when you -- when you strangle somebody, it's really interesting. Ted Bundy said it the best. He said, when you strangle a woman, you're looking into your eyes and you see her -- see the terror in her eyes and she knows you are God and you can take her life away from her. So she's never going to be that bright, wonderful girl and he's going to go on and she's not. So he wins.

MCGRAW: Well, Casey Jordan, you were talking about the fact that there's likely some very strong insecurities here. We also know that when he was in high school, he was the quarterback on the football team. He was the pitcher on the baseball team. These are generally regarded as leadership roles that get a lot of attention, get a lot of strokes, if you will, from coaches, teammates, students.

Does that dovetail with him being insecure?

JORDAN: But we don't know what was going on under the surface. We have a lot of people who are highly accomplished, but no matter what they accomplish, they feel like they're not good enough. You know, the most important thing that we have discovered about his high school record is that he had an ex-girlfriend who, when they broke up, he wouldn't leave her alone. He stalked her. She reported that he raped her. She later -- they never pressed charges -- declined to do that. But, of course, that doesn't mean it wasn't true. And the police had to talk to him and tell him to stay away from her, which really does fit with what Pat's saying. It's classic. If I can't have her, no one should be able to have her. And that need to be in control is sometimes just an overcompensation coping mechanism for deep insecurities.

I mean, if he was such a leader and such -- you know, the pitcher, the football quarterback, it's -- it's a little bit strange that he never went on to college and that got this job at Yale. Apparently his sister and his brother-in-law are also animal technicians and so is his girlfriend. So he had to use nepotism to get the position that he's currently in. And that was probably the crux of his life. The only thing that he really could control about his future was his work. Nothing else really seemed to be gelling for him.

MCGRAW: All right. Just real quickly, Dr. Lee, based on what we know about the evidence, did she fight back?

I mean were there defensive wounds, by her fighting back?

LEE: Yes. Of course, their report, there were scratches on his body and his face. In addition, their report found one bead on the basement floor which belongs to her necklace. That's -- it's a clear indication of a violent struggle. I've been investigating, you know, over 5,000 homicide cases. Many of those may just a simple last minute argument and he cannot control his temperament, because don't forget, the cause of death, we still don't know that's a strangulation or a compression of the neck. Strangulation could be one reason. It could be a ligature. It could be a hard object and a large force. So mainly stuff have to come and -- and hear the laboratory report come out and we can know better.

MCGRAW: Thomas Kaplan, in just a few seconds, can you tell us what the mood is on campus at this point? KAPLAN: Well, I think, to some extent, people are relieved. Granted, you know, we don't want to convict anyone before their trial. But just the idea that the police, you know, gathered evidence and were able to make an arrest -- and it looks like a solid arrest -- so quickly, it's definitely brought a sense of relief to campus.

MCGRAW: All right. Well, again, we have to remember, Raymond Clark is innocent until proven guilty.

We're moving on to another crime in the headlines -- accused kidnapper Phillip Garrido and whether he's tied to some unsolved missing girl cases. You're going to meet a young woman whose playmate was snatched right in front of her 20 years ago.

Stay with us.



LT. CHRIS ORREY, HAYWARD, CA POLICE: We did locate another bone on the exterior of the Garrido property. It was in a different location than the bone located on that property earlier in the week. And it's too early to even begin to guess what kind of bone that might be, human or animal.


MCGRAW: Phillip Garrido and his wife, Nancy, were arrested August 26th and remain jailed on kidnapping and rape charges in connection with the '91 abduction of 11-year-old Jaycee Dugard. Now, Garrido allegedly fathered her two daughters. Investigators are now trying to determine if there's any connection between the Garridos and two other unsolved missing girl cases.

Joining us now is CNN's Dan Simon with the latest. He's in our San Francisco bureau. And Dan, this story just gets more compelling by the day.

DAN SIMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's really been unbelievable since this all started in late August. And we can tell you today authorities were back out at the house. They've been there pretty much since this case began. And what they're looking for, as you mentioned, Dr. Phil -- they're looking to see if Philip and Nancy Garrido might be somehow linked to a pair of kidnappings that happened roughly 20 years ago.

And what they've been doing is they've been looking, basically, in the backyard of the house. They've had cadaver dogs there. They've come across, actually, several bones. At this point, they don't know if those bones are animal or human. But they've been sifting through the backyard. There's been so much debris back there, it's really been taking all this time just to get the whole place cleared out.

What we saw yesterday was quite compelling as well. The first time we've actually seen the inside of this house. And we've seen the backyard and the series of tents and sheds. Well, inside, it doesn't look any better. You're seeing dishes that haven't been washed, stacked up in the sink, discarded furniture, discarded appliances.

And this is the kind of life that Jaycee Dugard was exposed to for nearly 20 years.

MCGRAW: Let's look at the timing, Dan. I know you've been all over this case. We've watched you so closely as you've brought this information to us. We know that he gets out of jail. And at the time he gets out, we begin to see this pattern. Michaela Garecht in September of '88 is abducted. Ilene Misheloff in '89 gets abducted. And then Jaycee Dugard in '91.

Is the timing one of the big reasons that they're looking at this? Michaela was nine. Ilene was 13. Jaycee was 11. They happened in '88, '89, and '91.

SIMON: Absolutely. We know that he got off jail approximately in 1988 after serving 11 years of a 50-year prison sentence for committing a rape back in 1976. But you're right, the timing is a coincidence here. Well, maybe not. That's what authorities want to look at.

But in particular, as it relates to the Michaela Garecht case, police are really looking at that case closely, really for a couple of reasons. First of all, if you look at Jaycee Dugard, she was 11, and Michaela Garecht, she was nine. You put them side by side, they're almost identical. Both have blond hair, blue eyes. Very similar in appearance. Perhaps there is an MO there.

Secondly, you look at Philip Garrido and you look at the composite sketch of the subject back when that took place, some 20- years-ago, and police say there's a striking resemblance between Phillip Garrido and the composite sketch.

And finally, there was a witness to what happened back when Michaela Garecht was abducted. She said abducted near a supermarket. She has looked at this car that was taken off the Garrido property. And she says, you know, that looks a lot like the car that I remember my friend being taken away in.

So there's a lot to look at here. And of course, that's why cops are back out at the house.

MCGRAW: OK, Dan, I want you to stay with us if you can. When we come back, we're going to talk to the mother of one of the still- missing girls, and to the woman who witnessed the actual abduction when she was a child two decades ago. We'll talk to them when we come back.


MCGRAW: You're watching LARRY KING LIVE. I'm Dr. Phil McGraw, sitting in for Larry tonight. Sharon Murch is joining us. Her daughter, Michaela, was kidnapped in 1988. Sharon, as you've watched this unfold, is it eerily similar to what happened to your daughter?

SHARON MURCH, MOTHER OF KIDNAPPED DAUGHTER: Well, yes, there are a lot of similarities between Jaycee's kidnapping and Michaela's kidnapping. The cases have intersected in the investigations over the years because of those similarities. And when Jaycee was found alive, my first thought was, please, god, let Michaela be with her.

MCGRAW: And, of course, we know that she wasn't with her. Has there ever been an arrest or an active suspect in the case of Michaela?

MURCH: There have been a number of suspects. The police have investigating over 13,000 leads in the last 20 years. But there have never been any arrests.

MCGRAW: Do you still hold out hope that she's alive?

MURCH: I do still hold out hope that she's alive. One of the neighbors of the Garrido's several years ago reported that there were girls living in the backyard, and they reported that there were not three girls living in the backyard, but five girls. So that leaves two unaccounted for. And I'm believing that one of those could be Michaela.

MCGRAW: Katrina Rodriguez is joining us. She was with Michaela Garecht and witnessed her kidnapping. Katrina, this has got to bring an awful lot back to you when you hear about the way in which Jaycee was reportedly kidnapped.

KATRINA RODRIGUEZ, WITNESS TO KIDNAPPING: Yes, it sounds remarkably like Michaela's kidnapping. Broad daylight, shoved into a car. And with her kidnapping, I believe there was a witness too.

MCGRAW: Are you the one that provided the description to the police?


MCGRAW: And you remember the car. Tell us what you remember about the car that she was pulled into.

RODRIGUEZ: It was early '80s, maybe late '70s, kind of boxy, a sedan, and tan in color. And photos I've seen of the Garrido's car, they -- it looks like the same shape of car. I can't vouch for the color. It doesn't match my memory. But the shape of the car matches.

MCGRAW: People might wonder, of course, why would they have that car 30 years later. But I have to tell you, from a psychological perspective, when I see the photos from inside the house, it is highly suggestive that these people may be hoarders, that just can't turn loose of anything. They collect things that are obviously junk to someone else, but that they can't turn loose of.

If that's the case, if these pictures of the house do depict some type of unwillingness or inability to turn loose of things, it might explain why that car was still there, if, in fact, it is the same car. When you see -- Katrina, when you see pictures of Phillip Garrido, what do you think? Does it ring any bells with you?

RODRIGUEZ: I've seen some photos of him from the late '70s and early '80s, and I have to say that it looks a lot like my memory of the kidnapper, especially the eyes. But the shape of the face, length of it, kind of the placement of his eyes apart from each other, and everything just kind of seems to match up. And I haven't really gone on record as saying that very often.

MCGRAW: Well, yes, clearly, that's got to be a compelling image for you to see, because I know it was traumatic for you at the time as well. We're going to have Katrina tell us more about that fateful day and talk more to Sharon when we come back.


MCGRAW: I'm Dr. Phil, sitting in for Larry King tonight. Right now, we are talking about Jaycee Dugard's kidnapping and her release. Dan Simon is with us. Dan, you've been on top of this case from the beginning. What's the mood in the neighborhood up there?

SIMON: Well, I think people are pretty upset that the authorities didn't, you know, discover this case a lot sooner. We actually spoke to a neighbor. His girlfriend called the police some three years ago. She looked over the fence of their property, saw some tents, saw some children living in the backyard, picked up the phone, dialed 911.

Sheriff's office came out, talked to Phillip Garrido for a few minutes and then left. So I think when you walk through the streets of that neighborhood, people are angry, saying, why didn't police, you know, catch this guy a lot sooner?

MCGRAW: Dan, one of the things I wanted to ask you -- and I'm sure you've talked to law enforcement, both on and off the record. But I know next Thursday on my show, we're doing a story about the Wessen family that was in Fresno and wound up with very similar situation. The father that had daughters living in tents, had sex with daughters that yielded children. And when he was confronted by police, he killed every one that was home, shooting them all in the head.

Is this something that was averted? While law enforcement seemed to drop the ball on one hand, they were terribly alert on the other in recognizing that something was going on, to avoid what could have been a tragic outcome, like the one we're going to talk about on Thursday.

SIMON: Well, clearly Phillip Garrido, if the allegations are true, had an unbelievable ability to keep this secret for so many years. He had to meet with his parole officer a couple of times a month. We know that the children and Jaycee Dugard were visible with him at times. That backyard was there for many, many years. Apparently, only a few neighbors saw it.

So he had really an incredible ability to keep this double life from coming out.

MCGRAW: Well, Sharon, let me ask you, have you talked to Jaycee Dugard?

MURCH: No, I haven't.

MCGRAW: Because I would -- you know, I would think that it would be such a wonderful opportunity. Maybe they crossed paths in some ways. It's possible that Jaycee knew your daughter or saw your daughter or knows something about her. I'm sure you must just be really, really anxious to ask those questions.

MURCH: I think it is possible, but Jaycee was not Jaycee at the time that she lived with Phillip Garrido. She was Alyssa. So if she had crossed paths with Michaela, she may not have even known it.

MCGRAW: But if she could be shown some pictures, if she could, you know, talk with you, get some descriptions, some things that she might recognize, that would just be so helpful. And we just wish you so much goodwill with all of this, and hope that something comes up.

More with Katrina and Sharon after the break.



MCGRAW: We're here talking about the Jaycee Dugard case, really from a different angle, because there are two other disappearances that happened along that time, about that time. And so now there is real suspicion that he may have been involved in those disappearances. Maybe so, maybe not. But there are some similarities.

Sharon Murch, mother of one of the missing girls, Michaela Garecht, is with us, and Katrina Rodriguez, who was with Michaela at the time she was abducted. Katrina, let me start with you. Were you and Michaela the same age?

RODRIGUEZ: Yes, we were both in the fourth grade.

MCGRAW: OK. And tell us what happened that day. You were walking down the -- how did it happen? I know there were some scooters involved.

RODRIGUEZ: Yes. We rode scooters a couple blocks from our house to the local supermarket. And we went inside. We got some soda and some beef jerky and Laffy Taffy. And we started to leave the building. We walked to the edge of the parking lot, and then realized we had left the scooters. And we went back to the front door to look for where we had parked them.

And one of them was missing. Michaela was the first to notice where the other scooter was. And so she went to go pick it up. And as I stooped down to pick up the other scooter, I heard screaming. And I looked up and I saw a man shoving her into his car.

And he got in the car. He pulled out of the parking spot, out of the parking lot, and on to the road. And that's when I ran inside to tell a clerk. And she called 911. MCGRAW: So you knew right away this was all wrong. I mean you could -- you knew it was not -- that this was not supposed to be happening?

RODRIGUEZ: Yes. But it took a little while to register. I definitely wasn't expecting it, so I just stood frozen watching it until he had gotten out to the road. And then I ran in. But, yes, I definitely knew something was very wrong.

MCGRAW: What's been your reaction with all this coming out now with Jaycee Dugard?

RODRIGUEZ: I have got a lot of hope renewed. And then just there's renewed feelings of guilt and sadness that it was Michaela who was kidnapped. I mean, obviously I'm thankful for my life and what I've had and experienced. But I'm very sad that Michaela didn't.

MCGRAW: How has it affected you over the years that you saw such a traumatic thing?

RODRIGUEZ: I would say I'm a little more apt to take responsibility for things maybe that really aren't my fault. I'm a pretty over-protective mom, I'd say. And, yes, I -- I definitely have fears that people are going to come after me and my children.

MCGRAW: It's very understandable. Sharon, what is it that you want people in America, around the world, and certainly in that area to know about Michaela and about your hopes?

MURCH: I would like to address Michaela. I'm hoping that she's out there alive, and she's able to see me, and able to hear my voice. I just want to tell her that there's nothing that could have happened over the last 20 years that could have changed my feelings for her. There's nothing that could have happened over the last 20 years that we cannot heal. And I am just begging her to break free and come home.

If she's not willing to do it for herself, do it for me, please. Because going through this and wondering where my daughter is and what she might be experiencing or what she might have experienced is really hard. And I just really long to have the experience that Jaycee's mother has had of being reunited, and being able to hold her in my arms again. I just want her to come home.

MCGRAW: Sharon, we'll all pray for you. Thank you. And Katrina, thank you. We'll wrap it up after this.


MCGRAW: The question on everybody's mind is Philip Garrido involved in some of the other disappearances that we've been talking about tonight. Dan Simon, you've been in Antioch. You've been all over this. Experts that follow these things with pedophiles and sexual offenders tell us that the average sexual offender can have anywhere 100 to 400 victims throughout their lifetime. So the fact that Philip Garrido has been tied to one that we know of and a violent rape before leaves an awful lot of concern that there are other victims out there. What does law enforcement think about this?

SIMON: Dr. Phil, I've often heard you say the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior. But in terms of what authorities are saying, the bottom line is they don't know if he's connected to these other cases. That's why they're spending so much time out at the house.

We can tell that you starting on Monday, police are going to be back out there looking at the soil. They're going to be digging it up. We know that a couple of cadaver dogs picked up a scent. They zeroed in on one particular area. They brought out magnetometers today and they confirmed that there is something unusual beneath the soil.

I think once they go in there and dig up that yard a little bit more, perhaps it might yield a few more answers. You mentioned that they didn't throw anything away, that they showed classic signs of being hoarders. When it comes to this particular case. that might be an asset. Because if you didn't throw anything away, there might be evidence in the house that might tie into some of these other crimes.

MCGRAW: Well, if they are hoarders, and it certainly looks like they're pack rats, then hopefully there will be clues in there, something that will tie back to some other cases. Because, as I say, there are a number of those that -- there is such a high number that these people usually victimize. It doesn't mean that they're violent with all of them. But they do have more than one victim typically. So maybe we'll learn something about that as we go along.

Dan, I'm sure you'll keep us posted on all that. You know, we've seen pictures tonight of the young girls. It's hard to age them in your mind. But if anybody knows anything about it, you know, please contact the authorities. Let us know.

I really enjoyed sitting in with Larry tonight. This isn't a fun topic, but it's one I know you're interested in. So I hope I see you next week on "Dr. Phil." We have the Dr. Phil family back after five years on Monday. We'll be looking at a very similar case to this on Wednesday.

So I hope to see you there. And thanks for the time that you spent with us here tonight. I know Larry will be back Monday. It will be great. So appreciate it.