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Hugo Chavez Returns to United Nations; Health Care Reform Quagmire?

Aired September 24, 2009 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Can police keep protesters from disrupting world leaders in two U.S. cities on our watch? And we're on it.

Hillary Clinton back in the power chair, as Rahm Emanuel moves aside.

Wild disturbances on the streets of Honduras, as an ousted president sneaks back into the country and hides. Will the army move in and arrest him? I will speak exclusively to the de facto Honduran president live.

After beating the public option, will Republicans now beat all health care reform with a method that's tried and true?

SEN. OLYMPIA SNOWE (R), MAINE: I don't know what's happening in two weeks.

SANCHEZ: Delay, delay, delay.

And look who's at the U.N. today, Henry Kissinger. And we have his archenemy live. Daniel Ellsberg of "Pentagon Papers" fame with what he wants you to know about Afghanistan that he learned from Vietnam.

Your national conversation for the September 24, 2009, begins right now.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: And hello again, everybody. I'm Rick Sanchez with the next generation of news. We are chockful. This is a conversation. It's not a speech. And as always, it's your turn to get involved.

All right, think about how many world leaders are or have been in our country over the last 24 hours. It's crazy. And some of them are -- crazy, that is. But, regardless, it's a tenuous situation at the United Nations in New York and the G20 in Pittsburgh as well, not to mention the thousands of protesters who want to get at them, some of them who are also crazy.

We're monitoring this as we go.

There's this, a potential constitutional crisis right now in Honduras. And I have set up calls to speak live to both of the country's presidents, if you can believe that, the one that was ousted and is now in hiding, Zelaya, and the de facto president, Micheletti. You will see that here, live.

Also, chilling new details in that terrorism case that's beginning to sound more like the real deal, folks. This Afghan native, a naturalized U.S. citizen, travels to Pakistan and then returns home. Sound suspicious? Well, here's what we learned today. Zazi allegedly stockpiled bomb-making materials, rented a room in Denver that he may have used as a lab, and then rented a car and drove to New York where allegedly he learned that he had the feds on his tail.

As of today, he stands accused of conspiracy to make bombs and to use them. Apparently, it's being called weapons of destruction that he had planned to use. That's the indictment. It's down. And we will have it for you.

Also, we're going to bring the very latest to you on this conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction in the United States. And we're watching all three of those stories.

But what we want to do now is take you live to the floor of the U.N. General Assembly, where we're awaiting a speech by Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez. Now, you probably remember the last time that Hugo Chavez was at the United Nations, what he said. Here's a clue. It was not very flattering toward the United States of America, nor was it flattering toward the president at the time, George Bush.

Here's a refresher.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HUGO CHAVEZ, VENEZUELAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Yesterday, the devil came here. And it smells of sulfur still today.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: All right. With that going on, especially all the international news, let's start with Chavez. He called George Bush the devil. That's what he said. And now he's very much embroiled in the Honduran conflict, among others.

Richard Roth is CNN's senior U.N. correspondent. Boy, talk about a guy with his hands full today.

Should we expect Richard, dramatics from Hugo Chavez this time around?

RICHARD ROTH, CNN SENIOR U.N. CORRESPONDENT: Well, he has a tough act to follow in Moammar Gadhafi yesterday. Maybe that will cause him to increase the rhetoric. You did play the clip from a couple of years ago.

Three years ago, he was wildly gesticulating and saying he smelled sulfur in the room, referring to the president of the United States, George Bush, as the devil. I think he will probably live up to his reputation and his style and inform and entertain the General Assembly.

SANCHEZ: So far, we have seen crowds outside, nothing out of control, a lot of speeches that have been given. Just a little while ago, we heard from Netanyahu, for example.

How much friction are we seeing this time around from world leaders, and is it directed at the United States, as much of it has been in the past?

ROTH: Well, Gadhafi, you might say, dominated the show.

And even another president of another country that I talked to said, after Gadhafi said all these things and threw things, who is listening? He was saying in effect, who heard me when he spoke inside the General Assembly?

I don't think you're seeing more rhetoric or more comments aimed at the United States. It's to be expected from Gadhafi, 40 years away. His country was bombed. His country was sanctioned and he doesn't like America. Otherwise, I think there's progress and deals and agreements from rights of children, and nuclear arms.

That's being signed and ratified all over the building. But nobody really wants to talk about that. It doesn't make for big pictures and big sound bites.

SANCHEZ: Richard Roth following this there for us -- we thank you, Richard. I'll tell you what. We will get back to you if anything happens.

In the meantime, we will also be waiting for President Hugo Chavez of Venezuela to the dais. And then we will be most likely picking him up and listening to him live. Thanks again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JON KYL (R-AZ), MINORITY WHIP: The bottom line here is that if in fact we're adding more patients and we can't ensure that we're going to have enough physicians to take care of them, we're going provide a higher degree of this kind of subtle rationing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: All right, it's not so much the guy who is talking. It's the guy next to him that I want you to watch. Why is this Republican lawmaker sleeping through the health care debate? It's an embarrassing image, isn't it, which begs the question, how serious really are they about reform, your reform?

And remember the Mamas and the Papas? How about "One Day at a Time"? Well, the father and the daughter in this story, it's the father that makes no one proud. Neither is the story anything that will make you proud. How could he do something like this? That's what many across the country are talking about.

We plan to get to the bottom of the situation in Honduras as well for you. I hope to speak to not one, but two presidents, if we can pull it off. It's going to be a major international exclusive. Stay there. As it happens, you will see it.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right, let me bring you up to date on what is going on.

There is -- there is the president of Venezuela, Hugo Chavez, who has been deeply embroiled in one of the stories that we're going to bring you in just a little bit. He's just now coming to the podium. There he is.

Let's go ahead and dip into some of this and listen to what the president has to say. I will provide the translation if we don't have one.

Chris, let me know.

CHAVEZ (through translator): My esteemed friends (INAUDIBLE) my friends, citizens of the world, brothers and sisters who meet here year after year at this meeting which is of such importance to the world (INAUDIBLE) great pleasure (INAUDIBLE) back in New York, back at the United Nations after several years.

I'm very grateful for all the cooperation (INAUDIBLE) the way in which our delegation was received. Last night, we were at the Lincoln Theatre. We watched a movie made by Oliver Stone.

And, over the past months, the title of the movie (INAUDIBLE) It is called "South of the Border." And you will see President Evo Morales chewing coca leaves in the movie with Oliver Stone.

And as President Morales says, coke is not the same as cocaine. You will see Cristina, the president of Argentina, and the automobile of General Peron, and what she has to say about events in Latin America, in South America.

You will see Lula, the president of Brazil, in the (INAUDIBLE) area of Venezuela working with us to raise up the indigenous people through core industrial projects. You will see Fernando Lugo, a theologist, a liberation theologian, living today in the home of President Straussner (ph).

And you will see how a bishop became a president. You will also see President Correa of Ecuador in Havana with President Raul Castro.

You will see Fidel. In fact, you will see Obama in Trinidad chatting with a group of us with his hand held out to us and an open-faced smile.

I think it's an interesting movie, one of the many interesting movies made by this great filmmaker, Oliver Stone. He had already made two movies about Fidel Castro, "Looking For Fidel" and "El Comandante."

There's a lot in that movie, many messages, many signals that could help us decipher the enigmas that pervade the times in which we live. We stayed behind after the movie was over last night. We chatted with a group of Americans and people from other parts of the world.

And it was very instructive. This meeting was very symptomatic of the importance of what Fidel calls the battle of ideas.

A lady came up to me, a lady in her 50s. And she said, I'm very happy. She was a North American, very white, very typical U.S. citizen born here. And she spoke some Spanish. And she said, I'm very happy. And she said, now, having seen this movie, I realize what you are. I thought you were a very bad person.

So, she's a victim of the media bombardment, the ideological warfare, the ideological bombing of this world and the entire world that tries to put the world upside down, as Eduardo Galeano so aptly puts it, upside down.

The movie is called "South of the Border." And I'm taking advantage of this opportunity and that title, "South of the border," to tell you that south of the border, a revolution is under way. A revolution is under way in South America. A revolution is under way in Latin America.

There's a revolution in the Caribbean. The world must come to see this, must take stock of it and accept it, because it's a fact of life that's not going to change.

And we should say, Mr. President, that this is a revolution that goes beyond ideology. It's even geographical, geopolitical. It's a historic revolution. It's part of the times. It's a moral, spiritual revolution.

And it is a comprehensive and necessary revolution. That is what we think. It is a major revolution. And it is going to grow with the passing of time, as the months go by, as the years go by.

And why is it major and great? It is because it has been a long time coming. Centuries have now come to this moment in time. This is the president of Gambia. Please put the headphone on. Now we're ready. Long live Africa.

I'm not going to speak any more than Gadhafi. Gadhafi has said everything there is to say. This show of hands is for Gadhafi's speech. But I won't speak any less than Obama either or Lula.

Those of you who are arriving, just walk in.

So, why am I saying this is a great revolution? Firstly because of the time, the accumulated times, the time that's gone by, the centuries, the battles, the hopes, the suffering of millions and millions of human beings in Latin America and the Caribbean.

It's also a great revolution because of the space, the area it covers and also the depths, the depths of its roots, and also because of the masses of population that are joining it. No one is trying to break it or slow it, and no one will be able to.

Yesterday, President Morales said that here, this great companion, this great indigenous leader of (INAUDIBLE) Evo Morales. And you will see that in the movie, too. Make a point of going to see it, "South of the Border." Oliver Stone told me that pressures are being exerted to prevent the American public from seeing this movie. It's just a movie. How can they be afraid of a movie? But there's already pressure from monopoly distributors, the owners of the theaters. These are all monopolies. But the movie will be shown. This is the information age. It's the telecommunications age.

The owners of the theaters can no longer prevent knowledge from circulating. And Evo says as much in the movie when he's being interviewed by Oliver Stone, remembering something that a great (INAUDIBLE) leader once said, his great, great, great, great, great grandfather, who was murdered, just as so many millions were, by the Spanish colonization, the Portuguese, the British, the European colonization of South America.

You know -- I know you know.

SANCHEZ: It does appear that President Chavez is going into one of his historical monologues. We're going to be continuing to monitor it. You heard him say there, although he didn't really back it up, but he did say that there is a revolution taking place in Latin America and in the Caribbean, important words.

And some would argue there is at least an ideological revolution taking place in Latin America.

There's also a country where there's a bit of a revolution taking place right now, if you can make that case for Honduras. And he, Chavez, has been involved in this conversation between both presidents, Zelaya and Micheletti. I am going to be involved with both of those presidents, as well.

In an exclusive dual interview, we here in a couple of minutes are going to be interviewing the de facto president of Honduras, Micheletti, and the ex or ousted President Zelaya, who is now holed up in the Brazilian Embassy there in Honduras. It's a strange story.

First of all, how did he get back in the country? Chavez says that he hid in the trunk of a car to get back in. We will be asking those questions and whether these two forces are going to be able to come together before there's blood on the streets, because we have already seen protests, more protests today, some last week. We're going to be all over that for you.

By the way -- and this is an important programming note -- President Hugo Chavez is going to be on "LARRY KING LIVE" tonight," Hugo Chavez with "LARRY KING LIVE." Should be quite a spectacle.

And, again, if Hugo Chavez says anything at all noteworthy or newsworthy, we will turn it around and we will bring it to you, because we're going to continue to monitor it.

In the meantime, when we come back, we're going to tell you what's going on with the health care debate. That's becoming a bit of a delay and some would argue a bit of a sleeper. We have got pictures.

Stay there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back. Keep them coming. I'm Rick Sanchez here in the world headquarters of CNN with your national conversation.

Look, one can't help but wonder if a health care bill will ever emerge from the congressional committee by this weekend. Of course, that would mean Democrats would have to grow a spine, and Democrats -- and -- pardon me -- Republicans would have to stop delaying.

And they both would have to stop probably taking boatloads of money as well from health care industries, who don't want this, plain and simple. But I digress.

You want to see your government in action? That's the chairman right there. That's Democrat Max Baucus of Montana, who's filled several boats himself with campaign money from you know who. He wrote the bill, by the way. This part of the process is fascinating to watch.

The members are hammering one another almost as much as they're hamming the fine points of this bill. Here's Baucus calling out another senator for trying to slow things down, he says. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYL: Mr. Chairman, let me just completely thought here.

SEN. MAX BAUCUS (D-MT), FINANCE COMMITTEE CHAIRMAN: In about one minute, you will complete your thought.

OK, we have got to...

(CROSSTALK)

KYL: I will complete my thought and then make another point, Mr. Chairman.

BAUCUS: This is your delaying, Senator. And we have to move on.

(CROSSTALK)

KYL: Mr. Chairman, I am not delaying. I'm making an extremely important point.

BAUCUS: It's a very, very important point, but you're also delaying. So, other senators have amendments they wish to offer.

(CROSSTALK)

KYL: Mr. Chairman, Mr. Chairman...

BAUCUS: So, just go ahead. Complete your thought. Then I'm going to have to recognize the senator, in deference and to courtesy -- be courteous to other senators, who also...

(CROSSTALK)

KYL: Mr. Chairman, it's courteous if you don't interrupt somebody right in the middle of the sentence of an important point they're trying to make.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: Doesn't look good, does it? Now, is there a sense that this thing is now in full stall mode?

Well, check this out. That's Kentucky Republican Senator Jim Bunning in a morning session yesterday. Witnesses in the committee chamber say that he was out cold long enough to attract the attention and giggles of everyone who was in the room watching, before one of the staffers finally had to come up and shake him and apparently she woke him up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYL: The bottom line here is that if in fact we're adding more patients...

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: All right, now look at this. Senator Bunning appears to be taking a little nap. This was part of Monday's markup session, we understand. Maybe something more interesting will happen today to keep the senator up while discussing the issue of reforming the most expensive health care system in the entire world.

You can't make this stuff up.

In just a second, I'm going to be doing something that I don't think any other news network had done. That is talk to two presidents from the very same country, one de facto, one ousted. Obviously, their English not so good-looking, so I will hopefully be able to translate for them and see if they can come to some kind of accord with this disaster that seems to be taking place, this constitutional situation in their country right now.

Also, this. Look who's here. It's Henry Kissinger on the steps of the United Nations today. And, on the right, that's Daniel Ellsberg, who will join me shortly to tell you what he believes Americans need to not repeat. Do you all remember "The Pentagon Papers"? Well, maybe you should. It's part of American history.

Kissinger, by the way, hates Ellsberg like poison, we hear, always has. And guess who took a back seat today and almost lost?

All right, we're going to show you this moment coming up. It's the moment when Rahm Emanuel found his place. That's in "Fotos." Stay right there. I will show it to you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. We were just told moments ago that Hugo Chavez has made another one of his noteworthy if not salient comments. You remember that the last time he spoke at the United Nations, he said that he smelled sulfur, referring to the smell that the devil had left behind because he said that George Bush had spoken at that same podium just before him and he was trying to make a wisecrack, I suppose. Well, just moments ago, I'm told that Hugo Chavez once again made the sulfur comment. He said this time though that the podium does not smell of sulfur.

Chris, is that right? Did I get that right? All right.

Chris, my producer is telling me we're going to turn that sound around for you in just a moment so can listen to it. He probably knew when he said that that he would be making news.

How are we going with President Zelaya? Working on the phone right now. Thank you.

All right. Let's do this. I know we got President Micheletti all set up. We're going to ask President Zelaya first what he's doing in the Brazilian embassy, how he got back into the country, what he plans to accomplish by being back in the country that doesn't want him back and that's threatening to arrest him.

We hope to be able to get him on the phone shortly. I think we're very close. Stay right there, and hopefully, we'll be able to do that right on the other side of this break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: Welcome back, as difficult as it is to get a president to sit down and do an interview, we're trying to muster getting two presidents to sit down and do interviews, both the ousted President Zelaya and the de facto President Micheletti -- Roberto Micheletti.

Let's do this, let's catch -- while we're doing -- do you have that shot by the way where Micheletti's supposed to be? Put that up, Rodge (ph), put that shot up if you can. All right. There's the shot at the presidential palace where Micheletti's going to be joining us from in a just a moment -- a live interview with the de facto president of Honduras.

Now, outside the Brazilian embassy, a lot of folks have been protesting. In fact, we've got some pictures I think we can put up. And you'll see some of the protests that have been taking place. This thing hasn't stopped.

First of all, as soon as people there in Honduras found that their former president was back, they took to the streets, they have been some violent acts but for the most part, it's been pretty much controlled. Most of these people are rooting for Zelaya. They like him. They think he's the popular president and they want him back.

Unfortunately, the rest of the government -- unfortunately, a lot of people think that, actually, Zelaya was violating the constitution. And speaking of presidents, there is the president of United States. He's now left New York City. He's just arrived in Pittsburgh, where he will also be attending the G-20 summit with other world leaders who are doing the same trip, by the way. They're going directly from New York City to Pittsburgh, where they're going to be holding that session.

By the way, we have got reporters there on the ground as well, because we understand, as always happens with these summits where these world leaders convene, that there very well may be some protests there. We understand that the Pittsburgh police are doing all they can to keep it under control. But sometimes, that's difficult to do.

So, we have at least one correspondent I know who's reached out to us, who's telling us he's monitoring it, and as soon as anything happens, he's going to get back to us on that.

Back to Tegucigalpa now, the capital of Honduras, where I understand our own John Zarrella is standing by.

John, where are you.

JOHN ZARRELLA, CNN CORRESPONDENT: We're right in downtown in Tegucigalpa right now. We had been earlier today over (AUDIO BREAK) outside of the embassy, about 100 yards away, which is about as close as you can get.

And we actually -- you know, as you have been talking about trying to get interviews with the presidents is difficult, we've done our best to try and get in. In fact, the ousted President Zelaya told us that he'd be glad to talk with us if we could get in. And we made the appeals, we went through the channels, and they said, no, you can't, for security reasons, safety reasons. They would not let us in to the embassy area in order to get an interview with the -- with the former president.

So, the best we could do was talk to him on the phone a couple of times and as I'm surely he'll tell you, he said that, you know, things have been difficult particularly at night, a lot of disturbances and noises outside from the troops that are gathered out there.

But, you know, you were talking, Rick, about the protests, the Zelaya supporters protesting. Well, today, "People in White" is what they called themselves, they took to the streets, and they are pro- government supporters, they are supporters of the Micheletti government, and they are insisting that they want free and democratic elections as promised by the Micheletti government come the end of November. And they insist that the United States and Brazil and mostly Venezuela have been interfering in the affairs of Honduras.

In fact, many of these protesters today, the route took them in front of the United States embassy, where they stopped and they chanted and they held signs, and again saying, look, stay out of our business, we want democracy. And they say and claim that the former president should either leave the country again, or that he should surrender himself and to face charges for what he was attempting to do with the constitution.

SANCHEZ: John, stand by.

Give me that shot of President Micheletti -- de facto President Micheletti, I should say, if we can -- there he is. There's the de facto president right now. He can't hear me. We understand the only thing we're working out now -- we're working out the audio to be able to talk with him in just a minute. It looks like he's just spotted himself and hopefully, I'll be able to ask some questions.

(SPEAKING SPANISH). Can you hear me, Mr. President? He can. All right.

Obviously, the problem is we can't hear him. He can hear us. So, we'll be getting going here in a minute. We'll just get that cleared up and then we'll be doing the interview with the president, and hopefully, we'll be doing the president -- the interview with the ousted president as well.

Hey, John, put this in perspective for Americans who maybe haven't been following this story. You got a President Zelaya who's a lefty, and because he's a lefty, he's very popular with the poor there. And then you have Micheletti, who's a de facto president, who's there to replace a guy who, the government believes, violated the law. They say he was doing some things that were counter-constitutional, right?

ZARRELLA: Correct. What had happened was, and what really was the final lynch pin that led to his ouster was that he called for a referendum to be held that would, in essence, allow an extension of the president -- president to run for a second term in office, which violates the current constitution. Well, that apparently did not sit well with the legislators here and the supreme court.

SANCHEZ: John, John, I'm going to...

(CROSSTALK)

ZARRELLA: Yes, go ahead. Go ahead, Rick.

SANCHEZ: I'm sorry. I'm going to interrupt you, because, you know, I don't want to lose these opportunities. You stay there. I think we now have President Zelaya on the phone who also wanted to get some words in, and then we're going to go to his adversary, President Micheletti.

Senor Zelaya, (SPEAKING SPANISH). Are you there, sir?

(MANUEL ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: Do you speak English, sir?

JOSE MANUEL ZELAYA, DEPOSED HONDURAN PRESIDENT: I really speak English. (SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: You want to speak in Spanish. OK, I think I can accommodate you. Let me ask you the first question, how did you arrive in Honduras? Did you take a plane?

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: So you snuck into the country -- you snuck into the country in a car. (SPEAKING SPANISH) President Hugo Chavez is quoted as saying that you were hiding in a trunk of a car and that's how you got in, is that true? (SPEAKING SPANISH)

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: (SPEAKING SPANISH) Is it true what he says that you were hiding in the trunk of a car?

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: Yes -- in some -- yes, he says that in some ways, he was in a car, other ways he arrived in another way. (SPEAKING SPANISH)

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: So, by truck, you walked, you used a truck and you used a plane. (SPEAKING SPANISH)

Is it true that the Honduran military assisted you?

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: He says he doesn't want to mention that because he thinks it would be dangerous for various people. (SPEAKING SPANISH)

Are you trying to get back into the country to be the president again?

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: He says that he has never lost that title.

But let me ask him -- the government says you violated the constitution by trying to have another election. (SPEAKING SPANISH)

Do you not believe that you violated the constitution?

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: He says, "No, I did not violate the constitution and if I had violated the constitution, why didn't they have a trial for me? Why didn't I have a trial?" (SPEAKING SPANISH)

The constitution of Honduras as I understand it says that they don't have to have a trial for you. That if the Supreme Court decides that if you have violated the country and violated the constitution, they can remove you. That's what the constitution says. (SPEAKING SPANISH)

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH) SANCHEZ: He says there is no such law. He said it doesn't exist in his country despite the arguments that have been made by others.

Senor Zelaya (SPEAKING SPANISH). Let me ask you this question about what's going on right now. (SPEAKING SPANISH) You are inside the Brazilian embassy. (SPEAKING SPANISH) What do you plan to do from there? (SPEAKING SPANISH)

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: You have gotten permission from the Brazilian government. (SPEAKING SPANISH) How long will you stay in there?

(ZELAYA SPEAKING SPANISH)

SANCHEZ: The - He says the person that you're listening to right now is the one that was elected by the people. I am the president of Honduras, and I'll stay here in the Bolivian Embassy as long as it takes.

(Speaking Spanish)? How are you surviving in there? I understand that they cut off the water and the electricity. Is that true?

ZELAYA: (Speaking Spanish).

SANCHEZ: So you - It had - The - the electricity and the water has been reestablished. We're looking at pictures now of some of the scenes outside since the president has returned to his country - snuck back into his country. Let - let's have him stand by and we'll see if we can get him back in after the break.

We also have the de facto president of Honduras standing by, President Micheletti, and we're going to be talking to him in just a moment. We've got a couple of audio problems that we've got to just clear up.

Two presidents - one ousted, one de facto. (Speaking Spanish)? Can you hear me, sir?

ROBERTO MICHELETTI, DE FACTO PRESIDENT OF HONDURAS: Yes, perfectly.

SANCHEZ: Oh, good. OK, good. You're there. Sir, do you speak - are you comfortable speaking English?

MICHELETTI: I don't speak too well, but I'm going to try.

SANCHEZ: All right. I'll help you if - if you get stuck, let me know and I'll be able to help you as best I can.

MICHELETTI: OK. Thank you.

SANCHEZ: You just heard - you just heard the ousted president, Zelaya, say that he is still the president of your country, and when I told him that he was removed constitutionally by the Supreme Court, he says there's no such clause in your country to do such a thing. How do you respond to that, sir? MICHELETTI: This country has been in peace during the last three months. He's lying when he says they don't have water in the embassy, they don't have light - this is not true - electricity. It's not true. He...

SANCHEZ: But is there - is there - let me ask - let me ask you the question. Let me ask you - Let me...

MICHELETTI: Mr. Hugo Chavez - Mr. Hugo Chavez just - he just says in the - in CNN over in the United Nations he spoke for two hours with Zelaya. He ways we're having to hook (ph) his telephones, calls and everything. He's lying. He's been lying since years ago.

SANCHEZ: But let me ask you, senor, let me ask you the question in Spanish, because I think it'll be clearer, because I really want to understand this. I think Americans want to understand this.

In the United States, we have something called an impeachment process, and when we want to remove our president, he has to be impeached. As we understand it - and this is what Mr. Zelaya's saying, is why wasn't I given a trial? Why wasn't I impeached? They just grabbed me and took me out of the country.

Is it a legal process that was followed to remove him? (Speaking Spanish).

MICHELETTI: I understand, thank you.

SANCHEZ: OK. And you could - OK, good. Answer that question, if you will.

MICHELETTI: I'm going to try to read the Article number 239 of our constitution.

SANCHEZ: Right. Please.

MICHELETTI: Let me - let me read it in - in Spanish. This is the way you're going to understand better. (Speaking Spanish).

SANCHEZ: Article number 239.

MICHELETTI: (Speaking Spanish).

SANCHEZ: The person who has violated the laws of the country cannot be a president and cannot represent the country.

MICHELETTI: No, no.

SANCHEZ: (Speaking Spanish), the citizens.

MICHELETTI: Understand what I'm saying. (Speaking Spanish).

SANCHEZ: So you're saying that article - that article explains that he would not be able after to be the president or the vice president of the country?

MICHELETTI: Right. Not anymore.

SANCHEZ: Let me ask you...

MICHELETTI: (Speaking Spanish). The same - since they happened to me I'm going to be here for three months - six months and I - I never in my life are going to try to run for president again.

SANCHEZ: Let me - let me ask you...

MICHELETTI: This important...

SANCHEZ: Let me just - let me - let me just stop for a moment. Let me just stop for a moment and ask you a question. You have a former president, an ousted president back in your country. Did you know that he was trying to get in? And when did you find out that he was back in there in the - in the Brazilian Embassy?

MICHELETTI: I found the day - everybody knows he was in the Brazilian Embassy.

SANCHEZ: But...

MICHELETTI: Let me finish that adequately, please.

SANCHEZ: OK, go ahead.

MICHELETTI: Because it's important that the people understand what's really going on.

SANCHEZ: OK.

MICHELETTI: Being lying all the time. He said, (INAUDIBLE) who's brought this disposition or purpose, the reform, saying the people who support him directly or indirectly, they - they seize, they e-mail immediately in the - in the position of the (speaking Spanish).

SANCHEZ: Right. Respective charges.

MICHELETTI: (Speaking Spanish) maybe in - inability for 10 years for the exercise of poly conscience (ph).

SANCHEZ: That's what it says.

MICHELETTI: (INAUDIBLE) 249 is when he brought this - this article in the constitution, and he wasn't the president in time he took - they used to (INAUDIBLE).

SANCHEZ: Sir, are you going to - Two quick questions. First of all, are you going to forcefully remover him if need be? Have you been in contact with the Brazilian government?

MICHELETTI: No. We don't - We are not having no contact with the Brazilian government. (Speaking Spanish), we are a serious people and we're going to let him stay whatever he want, until the government - Brazil government want to have him there. SANCHEZ: And Mr. President, will you allow - will you allow CNN's crew, CNN's cameras to go into the embassy and film an interview with Mr. Zelaya? Would you allow that?

MICHELETTI: Please! Please! I beg you, come down here. Find out the truth. But don't stay only in the - in the Brazilian Embassy. Go to all our country and find out the real truth in our country (ph).

SANCHEZ: Mr. President...

MICHELETTI: Please, come.

SANCHEZ: Thank you, sir. We will take the invitation. We will relay that to our correspondent who's there in Tegucigalpa now. We will make sure that this permission that you have so kindly granted will then be issued so we can tell the whole world the story of what's going on over there.

My best to you, sir. I know these are difficult times. Thanks for taking time to talk to us.

MICHELETTI: Thank you for this beautiful opportunity to talk to American people.

SANCHEZ: I appreciate that.

MICHELETTI: And the whole world too.

SANCHEZ: All right. There you go. It's a - a bit of a stalemate still going on in Honduras. Meanwhile, the people are in the streets. We'll continue to follow it for you as we have.

When we come back, he was called one of the most dangerous men in America, but what he did played a big part in ending this country's war in Vietnam. His name is Daniel Ellsberg. He leaked the so-called Pentagon Papers. Now he's encouraging government officials to leak more documents relating to the war in Afghanistan. He's going to join me in just a little bit. I'm going to be right back.

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SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I like doing these kinds of interviews. It has a - you can't help but be passionate about this kind of thing because it's part of Americana, part of American history.

He was once the most dangerous man in America, and he's at it again. Back when I was a kid, a name, Daniel Ellsberg, instilled fear in a lot of Americans for an act that some people at the time considered treason. What Ellsberg did was he blew the government's cover over the war in Vietnam. Our leaders kept saying that we were winning, but we weren't winning, and that was the facts. And they knew it, our leaders. We all found out that they were lying eventually when Ellsberg leaked the Pentagon Papers, top secret government documents containing really the ugly truth, as we can refer to it today.

History has a way of repeating itself, folks. And now Ellsberg is calling on military analysts, those who hold positions like he once did, to come out with the full truth about Afghanistan. Speaking of Afghanistan, those are some of the latest pictures that we've been getting out of Afghanistan. He's saying, go ahead, leak secret documents. Do it now. Don't wait like I did for tens of thousands of US troops to die in a losing cause. Strong words.

Joining me now live from Los Angeles is Daniel Ellsberg, who gave you - thank you, sir, for being with us.

DANIEL ELLSBERG, AUTHOR, "SECRETS": Thank you. Glad to be here.

SANCHEZ: Hey, the name, "The Most Dangerous Man in America" - who gave you that name?

ELLSBERG: Henry Kissinger on a White House tape.

SANCHEZ: That's interesting. That's interesting...

ELLSBERG: He said, "He must be stopped at all costs."

SANCHEZ: Is that what he said?

ELLSBERG: That's what we -

SANCHEZ: Hey, we got some pictures we took today that I thought you might be interested in. Take a look at who was at the United Nations today. You see that picture, speaking with the Prime Minister of England? Who is that? Can you tell, sir?

ELLSBERG: It looks like an ageing Henry Kissinger, just as you have an ageing Daniel Ellsberg here on your screen.

SANCHEZ: Well, what do you - what -- I'm just curious, as you see, Henry Kissinger apparently being involved in politics as well today. He was there with several past US Secretaries of State.

What would you say to Gordon Brown, for example, who's - I see they're listening to him? What would you say to Gordon Brown after a conversation with Henry Kissinger?

ELLSBERG: Take what he says with a grain of salt. Henry Kissinger is an official. He doesn't lie more or less than other officials about what he really believes.

I don't think that Kissinger has been the evil genius behind policy in general. I think during the Vietnam war he was a clever servant of power of Richard Nixon. I think the policies were essentially Nixon's. I certainly disagreed with him very strongly. I think if he'd had a different boss, perhaps our disagreement wouldn't have been as great.

SANCHEZ: When Bob - let's go to the current now. Let's - let's bring you to today. When Bob Woodward reported earlier that McChrystal's report was what it was, it was - it was - that was a leak, right? I mean, "The Washington Post" put that out as a leak, right? ELLSBERG: You know, it was - it certainly (ph) was a leak and - of a very common sort when agencies of the government, not only national security, want to force the president's hand and some of them - they can have really a variety of motives for a very high level authority authorizing someone to pass classified information. And this, by the way, is very lowly, classified, confidential - I hardly saw anything confidential in the Pentagon. Very little - I - I didn't bother to read anything less than top secret. I didn't have time for it. So this - this sounds like something intended to be - to be leaked from the very beginning.

SANCHEZ: So, the leaker, or a leaker, you would say, good job. You're a good American for leaking that kind of information?

ELLSBERG: Well, no. As I say, this is what is really an authorized leak - in other words, a very high - a very high agency has done this, nothing like what I did or what, let's say Thomas Tamm did when he revealed the surveillance by George Bush, the warrantless wiretap surveillance, clearly against a high level policy.

But, you know, I think the purpose of this may well backfire. I know of a very, very precise analogy to this. In March of 1968, General Westmoreland and General Wheeler - the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff were reporting a very (INAUDIBLE) and really quite realistically...

SANCHEZ: I'm going to stop you on that story for just a moment, sir, because we're going to finish it on the other side. I've got to toss it over to my friend and colleague, Wolf Blitzer. You and I will continue on CNN.com LIVE.

Wolf, how about it?

WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Rick, thank you.