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Gadhafi Meets With Pan Am 103 Families; Michael Moore Takes on Big Banks

Aired September 25, 2009 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

T.J. HOLMES, CNN ANCHOR: And hello there, everybody. And thanks to Betty there. I'm T.J. Holmes in today for Rick Sanchez, even though you're going to get a good dose of Rick Sanchez this hour.

The conversation begins right now. And we want to begin with a name you have heard an awful lot the past few days, even the past few weeks, Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi. You heard a lot about him, because he pitched a tent in New York. Also, some say he pitched a fit when he made his speech to the U.N.

Well, now he's making some more news. In a CNN exclusive, Moammar Gadhafi, the Libyan leader, says he met this week with several family members of people who died in the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103.

We're going to play that for you in just a second, what he said. But, first. let's recall this image. A lot of people remember this. This was what really got some outrage going. This is the former Libyan agent Abdel Basset Ali al-Megrahi, the Pan Am bomber, convicted Pan Am bomber, given essentially a hero's welcome when he returned to his country from Scotland, where he had served eight years of a life prison sentence.

And this really got a lot of people around the world upset, including right here in the U.S., especially among those families of those who died -- 179 of the victims in that crash were Americans. Here now, listen to Moammar Gadhafi, speaking with our Fareed Zakaria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: I gather from your aides that you have met with the victims of the Lockerbie bombing. Tell me about that.

MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYAN LEADER (through translator): Yes, I met some of them. It was a friendly meeting, friendly encounter. And I offered my condolences for the relatives who lost them. They also expressed their condolences for my daughter who was killed during the American raid in '86.

ZAKARIA: The 1986 raid?

GADHAFI (through translator): It was very -- very sentimental and very touched.

(END VIDEO CLIP) HOLMES: All right, he said it was a friendly meeting, a friendly encounter with some of the members of the families of those who were killed in that Lockerbie bombing, also saying that they expressed condolences for his daughter he was talking about there killed in 1986, he says, in an American raid. Again, that's an exclusive interview you're going to see a lot more about.

Again, I'm sitting here where Rick usually sits here in Atlanta. But Rick is certainly still working up in Atlanta. He's up in New York right now.

Rick, hello to you. Know you will be up there talking a lot about this case, sitting in for Campbell Brown tonight, and a lot about what Gadhafi had to say to our Fareed Zakaria.

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: We're going to be all over this thing. This is crazy, when you listen to this conversation.

I have been -- we all have been passionate about this throughout the week, given the forever speech that he gave at United Nations. But we thought that for a certain part of what his exit strategy here for lack of a better word would be that he would talk about what happened during Lockerbie, that he would show not just condolences. Condolences?

I mean, T.J., you could offer condolences to this family. I could offer condolences to this family. But we're not a part of the Libyan government that was responsible. We're not a part of the Libyan government that actually paid, interestingly enough, all but copping to fact that they were involved in bringing -- I mean, look at these pictures.

Put up Lockerbie, if you have got them there, Deidra (ph). This is important. Sometimes, we have a tendency to just gloss over the news and give you a bunch of words. But let's be very definitive about what we're talking about here. We're talking about some 250 people who were blown out of the sky, 11 people on the ground.

Look at these pictures. If this isn't one of the most heinous acts of terrorism that you have ever seen or that we have ever experienced or had to deal with, then I don't know what the heck is. This is it. This is Lockerbie, December 21, 1988. A bomb goes off on the Pan Am 103. The wreckage falls on Lockerbie, Scotland.

There it is for the whole world to see. And, by the way, let me give some more background on this, because I'm going to be giving you a lot of background as I take you through the beginning of this story, right?

Yes, come back to me if you want. I just looked it up a little while ago in our own CNN archives. Gadhafi admitted to it, paid $2.7 billion in restitution. And as you were saying just a little while, T.J., it's al-Megrahi. He was a Libyan agent.

This is not a lone wolf. This is not a guy who some people say, well, he may have had ties to Libya. No, he was definitively a Libyan agent. So, the country and the leader of that country, Gadhafi, were responsible for Lockerbie. Let's make that very plain.

Now, as I set you up with that, now let's listen, knowing that. Knowing that, let's listen again to his conversation with our colleague Fareed Zakaria.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ZAKARIA: Do you regret any possible role that officials of the Libyan government might have played?

GADHAFI (through translator): No one -- no one would support an action like that on -- would not be touched and moved by such a tragedy. Whether it is Lockerbie or whether it is the '86 raid against Libya, we are all families of the victims.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANCHEZ: All right. Let's -- again, it's important to know the facts in these stories, not just to gloss over them.

So, let's do that. Let's be specific. Mr. Gadhafi is right. There was a 1986 raid on his country. Ordered by the president of the United States, Ronald Reagan, in retaliation, by the way. But we got those pictures. Let me show you some of those, all right?

This is what happened when the United States decided that they were going to go after Gadhafi. It was April 14, 1986. Some of you guys remember this, if you're old enough. We attacked Gadhafi's military headquarters. And, yes, there was an errant missile that hit a civilian neighborhood. Some wonder if it was errant or not.

And Libya said it killed Gadhafi's 15-month-old daughter. That's what he's referring to when he mentions right away, oh, yes, Lockerbie, but let me tell you about my daughter that I lost in 1986.

Well, this didn't happen in a vacuum either, folks. And this is important. Let me tell you about something else. Let me tell you about the American troops and others who were in a discotheque. We have got those pictures? Let me take you back to April 5. This is 1986.

A terrorist bomb goes off in West Berlin. This is a discotheque. It kills an American soldier, injures scores more, injures another Turkish woman, 120 people, including 40 Americans were seriously injured in this thing, burned.

And everyone knew at the time that the suspicion fell on the Libyans. So, Reagan decided to go back after this guy. And rather than start a war, like in Iraq, he just went after Gadhafi directly, many thought at the time.

So, that's what Gadhafi's talking about when, instead of taking, one would think, responsibility for what happened in Lockerbie, which is the question that Fareed Zakaria was asking him, instead, he diverts the conversation, interestingly enough, and starts talking about what happened to him and his daughter in 1986. This guy is a character, T.J.

Well, a lot of people would agree with you, certainly a character, He makes points. He took some questions up there in New York, as well, not just from our Fareed Zakaria, in a kind of a forum, where he -- he brought up what you were just saying there. In fact, no one in the government -- he said the government, even though we're talking about Megrahi was an agent.

He said his government, even though it paid, the government was not held responsible for the bombing. So, we heard there in Fareed Zakaria's Q&A that's he's still not taking responsibility necessarily.

SANCHEZ: Well, no. And I think that should anger -- look, if my son or daughter, T.J., were on that pane, I would be angry. If I met with the guy, let me read you the lines again. OK? Deidra (ph), I have got it right here. All right. He says -- Fareed asks him, so you understand the grief of these people? He says, yes, it's a tragedy. It's a catastrophe.

Do you regret, Fareed asks him, do you regret any possible role that officials in the Libyan government might have played?

His answer, no one will support an action like that, will not be touched and moved by such an action like that, whether it is Lockerbie or whether it is the 1986 raid against Libya.

What's he saying? I mean, look, when -- when you do something and the goods are in that prove that your government -- and you're the president of that government -- were responsible when, in 2003, you paid restitution to the family members, I think what these family members wanted to hear today, don't you think -- I mean, I'm not really going out on a limb here. What these family members wanted to hear is, I'm sorry I did what I did.

I'm not sure he's saying that, but I'm going to have Fareed Zakaria on tonight at 8:00. And we're going to go through this conversation. By the way, also tonight at 8:00, more Michael Moore, Bill Clinton as well. So, we're going to have a stacked show -- T.J., back to you.

HOLMES: All right. And I know we're going to be hearing more about Michael Moore, your conversation with Michael Moore. We're going to be playing that for our viewers...

(CROSSTALK)

SANCHEZ: Cool.

HOLMES: ... now. And of course we will see you again a little later. Rick, thanks, as always. I will try to occupy this chair and do you justice from right here. We will see you soon, man.

SANCHEZ: You always do. Thank you, T.J.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) MICHAEL MOORE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: The beast called capitalism just got so out of control, and it just said, you know, I'm going to gobble up whatever I can gobble up.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: And speaking of Michael Moore and Rick Sanchez, there they are. You know Michael Moore. He's made a lot of money and he's pretty much made a career out of taking on the big guy, big government, big tobacco. Well, why not big banks? That is just ahead.

Also, an alleged terrorist doing some beauty shopping for a whole lot of peroxide. We will tell you why this picture is a whole lot more dangerous than it may seem at first sight.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CHRIS CATO, REPORTER: You said no chases. No chases means no chases.

SALLIE PEAKE, MAYOR OF WELLFORD, SOUTH CAROLINA: You got your story. Thank God. You are so sweet. You got your story on a woman in Wellford. Hallelujah.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Doesn't that just remind you of "Hercules, Hercules"? You know what I'm saying.

(LAUGHTER)

HOLMES: That's funny. You might remember her. She's the mayor of Wellford, South Carolina. That was her defending her decision to ban the town's police from chasing suspects. We're not just talking about the the chases on the highway. Foot chases. You can't even take off and go after them on foot.

Well, she's talking again. We will have that for you next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

SANCHEZ: All right, if you were a criminal and you know that, in a particular town, the police cannot chase you on foot when you do something wrong, what would you do? Well, I assume you would do what you do best. You criminalize.

Well, in a South Carolina town, be warned now. Police there can chase you again. Let's give you a refresher here. This week, a lot of you all out there responded to -- with just a tidal wave of tweets and mails to a story that Rick was talking about here out of Wellford, South Carolina in particular.

The town's mayor officially said that her police cannot chase troublemakers on foot. Her local TV news interview was, shall I say, interesting.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CATO: As of this date, there are to be no more foot chases?

PEAKE: More foot chasing, and that's what I said, that's what I meant, and that's what I -- I said what I meant and I meant what I said.

They are costing us more money on insurance than most citizens here in the city of Wellford...

(CROSSTALK)

CATO: Are you telling your officers that if they witness a crime, they witness someone commit a crime on someone else and they're 10 yards away, that they cannot go stop that person?

PEAKE: Is that in there?

CATO: It says no chases whatsoever.

PEAKE: Well, that's what I said, no chases, didn't I? Now, I didn't say nothing about no crime. If you see a crime...

(CROSSTALK)

CATO: Well, that's what a chase is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: To explain here...

(LAUGHTER)

HOLMES: I'm sorry. To explain, she says she didn't want to pay insurance claims and damages after police foot chases. Apparently, some of the officers were getting hurt. It was just an insurance issue, costing the city a lot of money.

OK. Maybe a lot of people think maybe she had a point there. Well, after she appeared on CNN and other networks, the mayor has changed her mind. She gave it some thought and she got some friendly advice.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PEAKE: You want me to say I have changed my mind? To be honest with you, as far as my mind and heart, I have not changed, but since I -- I'm doing this. I'm kind of like Wilson said, with Joe Wilson now. I'm doing it because they're telling me to do it, not because I want to.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You're going to allow your officers start...

PEAKE: To jump up, climb trees, tunnels, whatever they want to do.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. Sounds like it will be a regular gymnastics here in Wellford of police chases. (CROSSTALK)

PEAKE: Well, that's what you all like. That's what you all want, so have at it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: OK. Some would say she's just being a little facetious there, just being -- having a sense of humor about the whole thing.

But Mayor Peake says she still prefers that the police not run after criminals on foot.

We're back in just a second. We will have exclusive video related to the FBI's homegrown terror case. We are right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right, listen to this quote here. "There's a video reel playing in my head and I have spent 30 years trying no not to look" -- end quote.

Those are the words of actress Mackenzie Phillips. First saw her as a 12-year-old in "American Graffiti," then later as a rebellious teenager in the '70s and '80s sitcom "One Day at a Time." That sitcom openly dealt with some controversial themes of the day, suicide, birth control, premarital sex.

Now, those are some pretty tough topics, maybe, but it may be tame stuff compared to the real life led by Mackenzie Phillips and her father, John Phillips. He was the leader of the Mamas and the Papas, which made "California Dreaming," that legendary song.

Now, this certainly a sordid tale here, tough to talk about. So, we will try to nuance this as best we can. A new-tell all book here that Mackenzie says she and her father had an off-and-on adult relationship that lasted for more than 10 years.

Mackenzie calls it rape. She was a teenager. And it was the night before her wedding. And Phillips writes that she woke up from a blackout to find herself with her father. She says she eventually confronted her father. Here is how she talked to Oprah about that confrontation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MACKENZIE PHILLIPS, ACTRESS: I went to my father and I said, "Look, we need to talk about how you raped me." And my dad said, "Raped you? Don't you mean when we made love?" And in that moment, I thought, "Wow, I'm really on my own here."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Now, Mackenzie explains goes on to explain how over the years she and her father actually carried on this adult relationship with frequent encounters, that it continued for more than a decade. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OPRAH WINFREY, HOST, "THE OPRAH WINFREY SHOW": By the time you're 29, Mackenzie, you are very -- well, I would say at 18, but by the time you're 29, you're very much aware of that this is wrong, that this is should not be happening.

PHILLIPS: Yes.

WINFREY: But, yet, it continues to happen.

PHILLIPS: Yes.

WINFREY: And how do you explain that? I just want to establish the fact that it went on for a very long time.

PHILLIPS: Yes, it became a consensual relationship over time. And I know that I can't be the only one this has happened to. Nobody's talking about this. And someone needs to put a face on not only non- consensual incest, but consensual incest, because I know it exists.

WINFREY: Yes.

PHILLIPS: I know it's happening in families. And I can't be the only person to have lived through this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Consensual incest. Mackenzie says she does want this behind her, but two of her stepmothers saying it's not true, including one who says that John was incapable of it.

The other, the former Mamas and Papas singer Michelle Phillips, tells CNN, whether the relationship was real or delusional, it's an unfortunate circumstance and very hurtful for our entire family.

Mackenzie's half-sister, singer China Phillips says she believes it did happen. John Phillips, meanwhile, died in 2001. Mackenzie's book "High on Arrival" is number four of Amazon's bestseller list.

Well, stay with us here. Next, we will talking about an alleged buying beauty supplies. Why is that a big deal and why is that so scary?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right, let's just go ahead and take a look at this picture here. It seems pretty -- pretty innocent, actually, a guy walking around doing some shopping. This is exclusive video that we have obtained.

Let me tell you why this is important. It shows a man in a beauty supply warehouse with a shopping cart full of peroxide. Now, you need this stuff to put in the hair, to do all kinds of things. I won't get into it, because I don't understand it that well, what women with this stuff sometimes. But the man here is certainly not a beautician. And that is what is alarming. In fact, he is this man. Let's show him to you, Afghan native Najibullah Zazi, who appeared again in court today, now is being transferred from Colorado to New York to face some charges. He's accused of a plot to make some homemade terrorist bombs and use them.

According to the feds, that's what all that peroxide was for. There's enough other stuff on Zazi that his case is being called the most dangerous terrorist plot in years. Authorities were actually calling him a real deal terrorist.

And my guest now agrees. Joining me from New York, Karen Greenberg, executive director of the Center on Law and Security at the New York University.

Ma'am, thank you so much for being with us.

Let's start with Zazi here and these other arrests and charges we have seen lately. There's the one out of Illinois we just heard about. There's one out of Dallas now they're looking into, one in Brooklyn, also another in North Carolina. Now, it seems like a lot we have had in a short period of time, but Zazi certainly among this group we have also seen arrested around the country just in the past week or so.

He stands out. Why?

KAREN GREENBERG, NYU CENTER ON LAW AND SECURITY: He stands out because he has been accused of crimes that very few people in over 800 terrorism prosecutions since 9/11 have been accused in -- together.

And that is belonging to an al Qaeda or al Qaeda-related group, or having an affiliation with al Qaeda, training in a terrorist training camp, and having access to an intent to use some form of a weapon of mass destruction. And he has in his -- sort of in the allegations against him brings together all of these.

There are very few of people in those over 800 individuals who have been accused of these crimes together.

HOLMES: Now, we talk about -- we hear authorities use the phrase, sometimes more aspiration than operational. He both was aspirational and operational. And that's a very small percentage of the 800 you talk about.

GREENBERG: Yes, right. Plus, we have had so many cases that have hit the headlines in the past seven or eight years that have alleged to have these dire crimes, but, again, they were more like fantasy crimes or aspirational, as you would say, you said, than operational.

HOLMES: Yes.

GREENBERG: And being able to use your judgment, the judgment of the authorities to make that call has been something that we have seen done much better in the last couple of years than prior to that. HOLMES: Now, I guess, help us try to put in context how big of a -- I assume there's still dangerous and threatening people, but we have seen so many, it seems, arrested because they were duped by the federal officials. There was some undercover sting or the person arrested thought they were dealing with a member of al Qaeda who was actually just an FBI agent posing as a member of al Qaeda.

How do we still characterize those types of events and those type of men who have been arrested? Are they still dangerous folks?

GREENBERG: Well, first of all, when it comes to this case, we actually don't know that much about it. We certainly don't know anything about an informant of -- of the type you're talking about.

But the informant issue is something that we're trying to work out as a society and which our law enforcement agencies are trying to do to improve their use of along the way. And, again, that story is one we're going to need to tell by going over these earlier cases and see just how important these informants are to leading to aspirational cases, as opposed to operational cases, which is the point you made in the beginning.

I mean, if -- if you have a person who leads an individual all along the way to, let's say, plant a bomb that turns out to be a fake bomb, as was in the cases you have mentioned, you have to ask yourself -- the authorities say, well, it means he would have done it if a terrorist or a terrorist group had approached him.

HOLMES: Yes.

GREENBERG: But, again, that's an issue that this society has not really confronted yet. We have sort of done it without raising the question publicly.

HOLMES: All right. Well, you bring up an interesting point there that maybe we need to highlight a little more. Again, Karen Greenberg, executive director of the Center on Law and Security at New York University, ma'am, I appreciate your time and your help today. You have a good weekend.

GREENBERG: Thanks for having me.

HOLMES: All right.

Coming up here next, let's see here. Guess who took a back seat at the United Nations yesterday? The moment when Rahm Emanuel found his place -- that photo coming up.

But, next, a request from the top general in Afghanistan to the White House: Send more troops, a whole lot more.

Stay here.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: More troops, a whole lot more troops -- American troops, coalition troops. Just troops. That's what's needed in Afghanistan right now. That is what we're told is what the top general there wants, and wants it as soon as possible.

General Stanley McChrystal, who we're talking about here, he and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff met today to talk about what's needed, where and when. One Defense Department spokesman says General McChrystal's official request is expected to hit the desk at the Pentagon today or maybe sometime this weekend.

We want to share now something with you that's related to the troop question. You may have missed this. This was yesterday, on this program.

Rick sat and he talked to Daniel Ellsberg. You might not know the name, but he's the guy who leaked the so-called Pentagon Papers during the height of Vietnam. Listen to Ellsberg now saying he knows why General McChrystal is asking for so many more troops.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANIEL ELLSBERG, AUTHOR, "SECRETS": I think the purpose of this was to tie President Obama's hands to another 45,000 troops. And by the way, I think if we had 200,000 troops to send, McChrystal would be asking for 200,000.

We don't have them, but I think what he's asking for is everything we have, and he'll continue to do that. I think it's a first installment. But it's just possible that when he describes the situation and the terms that he has, a corrupt government, illegitimate in the eyes of its own people, fraudulent election, no real support among its own people, people supporting the opposition not because they like them, but because they want to see foreigners out of their land and they don't want this government, that smells to me like Vietnam. And I think people could have the same result. In fact, I think I wrote that report 30, 40 years ago when I was in Vietnam, only the place names were changed.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No sign of the cat? Oh, too bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's some footprints.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Yes, a flood leading to an explosion. We'll show this to you coming up next.

And Iran says, all right, you got us, we have a second uranium enrichment site. What exactly does that mean? Anybody surprised by it either?

That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right. The Iran nuclear plant question. Do they or don't they have a weapons capable plan? The answer -- maybe.

Show you a picture here. It's a place called Qom.

Iran is not denying that you are in fact looking at a uranium enrichment plant. Other questions, though, what's it capable of producing? Did the United States and other western countries know about it? The answer -- maybe.

President Obama today said the plant size and configuration means it can't be part of a peaceful program. He now wants a full investigation. He's standing there with the leaders of France -- Nicolas Sarkozy you see there -- and also of Britain. It said Iran risks a new wave of sanctions. Iran says there's no nuclear material there just yet.

So the Iran nuclear question continues.

So, we have all been there before. We sit somewhere we're not supposed to sit. Sometimes you sit in the boss's seat. What happens if you're in Hillary Clinton's seat?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A few more steps and Christine Prince and her daughter will be home. It's a new life far away from the misery of a temporary shelter.

CHRISTINE PRINCE, RESIDENT, INTERVALE GREEN: And we killed more than 300 mice in that apartment. We were living literally in fear.

Do you have a lot of home work?

WHITFIELD: A new address...

PRINCE: My first food pantry...

WHITFIELD: ... and a fresh start for this family.

PRINCE: It's like I won the lottery. I was so overjoyed because I know my children will finally have a place to call home.

WHITFIELD: Last March, they were among the first residents of Intervale Green, an innovative low-income housing project developed by WHEDCo, the Women's Housing and Economic Development Corporation in the Bronx.

PRINCE: It's like one big family. I feel like a dream come true.

WHITFIELD: This home has residents seeing and saving green with features like compact fluorescent lights, efficient appliances, and low-flow plumbing designed to conserve both energy and cash, saving residents nearly a third on monthly utility bills.

NANCY BIBERMAN, FOUNDER, WHEDCO: It's the largest affordable green building in the country.

WHITFIELD: From the donated tile in the lobby, to the rooftop garden, this 128-unit apartment building is green from the ground up.

BIBERMAN: This is green that they can see and feel and touch and live.

WHITFIELD: But for this grateful family, it's home sweet home.

Fredericka Whitfield, CNN.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel, you see him back there at the U.N. with the president, chatting up. Nice little seat, cozy -- hey, Rahm! That seat does not have your name on it, young fellow. It belongs to that lady, the secretary of state, Hillary Clinton.

Yes, he got bumped. Maybe he'll get a front-row seat maybe next year at the General Assembly. He got up pretty quick when he realized what was going on.

OK. Outside Atlanta, Georgia, we have been seeing a mess down here, really, the past week or so with all of the flooding, and a lot of reports of explosions that's happening amid the flooding.

Listen now to a reporter who is trying to do his work.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Oh, too bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Here's some footprints.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Whoa!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HOLMES: Yes, this is a blast that sent that garage door flying more than 30 feet. Now, firefighters say this was caused by vapors from gas and paints that were stored in that particular garage, but it's happening in different places. But you could hear smaller explosions with those paint cans and whatnot. As each can goes off, you hear this -- really like popcorn popping in the air, but in a much more serious way.

Also, the battle of old versus new. Now, a lot of people argue that you'll be safer in those old, big, heavier cars. Well, we have got an answer now, which would win, an old car versus a new car. Take a look at what happened with a 2009 Chevy Malibu and a 1959 Chevy Bel Air.

I just kind of hate to see the Bel Air go down. Why would you crash that car? Don't crash the Bel Air.

Actually, the Malibu didn't -- excuse me, the Bel Air didn't fare so well. The Malibu essentially creamed it, and the Insurance Institute for Highway Safety did this test to try to dispel some of those thoughts that people have that, if you had an older car you would be better off. It wasn't the case. The Malibu and the crash test dummy in that Malibu fared much better.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: You might know the name Michael Moore by now. The sometimes controversial, always thought-provoking filmmaker, well, he has a new movie out. It's called "Capitalism: A Love Story."

He joined our Rick Sanchez to discuss how he got to this point in America.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: Michael Moore, thanks so much for being with us.

MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: Oh, thank you very much for having me on.

SANCHEZ: You know, it's funny, because we're going through a time in America -- I have been reading all these signs and all these banners and bumper stickers. They say the president of the United States is a socialist, if not a communist.

You say what?

MOORE: The only socialism I have seen in the last year is the Welfare payments that we've made to Wall Street, bailing them out. It's just so funny how up is down all of a sudden.

I think President Obama has inherited a catastrophe, and he's doing the best he can at this point. I think a lot of us wish that he would move a little faster, do a little better. But we're lucky to have him in the Oval Office right now. This is when you want the smart guy in there.

SANCHEZ: However, you know, I have been reading and listening to you lately, and you're saying, you know what? This guy needs to be pressured and he needs to be held accountable. In fact, you're even more terse than that.

Explain it for our viewers.

MOORE: Well, I mean, millions of people voted for him on the promise of change, real change. Now here we are a year later, and with all the talk about how we just have to regulate Wall Street and everything will be OK again, where's the regulations, where's the rules? I mean, they're off making up new derivatives on life insurance now. So I think that, again, the president has -- you know, he's got a tough job in front of him. I wouldn't want the job, but he's brought in Mr. Geithner and Mr. Summers and Mr. Rubin, three of the architects of this mess. And it's kind of like how the big banks, they actually hire bank robbers to advise them on how to prevent bank robberies. So maybe President Obama has brought these three in to advise them on how to fix the mess they helped to create.

SANCHEZ: So then what we have is, toward the end of the Clinton administration, some people could argue that Rubin and the president himself were, to a certain extent, complicit with all these schemes, these ways of unregulating the very people you call robbers. The same thing you could argue continued during the Bush administration.

What's to say Obama's going to stop these guys? And is he showing any signs that he will?

MOORE: You know, this man was raised by a single mother and his grandparents. He comes from a working class. He's lived life as an African-American in this country. When he graduated from Harvard, instead of going to Wall Street to make a lot of money, he chose to go to the inner city of Chicago.

I think that at his heart, at his core are some very good and important values. And I think he's going to end up siding with the people and not Wall Street on this.

I'm almost certain -- I think we have a chance of having a Roosevelt of the 21st century here, somebody who is going to take this country out of the muck that it's in and get us back to, you know, what we were doing best -- people making money through their labor, through their ideas, through their inventions. We don't make anything really anymore. We've just got guys down on Wall Street making money off money and taking insurance policies out on the money, and then betting against those insurance policies, and then betting against those vets. And it's like totally insane.

SANCHEZ: What's different, though? I mean, explain to me how when you and I were growing up, you know, 20 years ago, 30 years ago, these things didn't happen, this wasn't going on?

MOORE: That's right. Thirty years ago, you didn't put your pension money into a 401(k) -- in other words, gamble with it into the casino called Wall Street. You had a defined pension plan.

Your dad, my granddad, my dad all had pension plans that were locked away, set aside. They were going to be there when they retired.

You know, when I was young you didn't have a credit card in the family. Nobody had -- I think there was one lady on the street that had a JCPenney credit card. You know? I mean, that was about it.

SANCHEZ: And the gas cards were always real cool, too.

MOORE: Exactly. Actually, there was a guy down the street, his dad had a Shell card. And that was it. You weren't $10,000 in credit card debt.

And when you and I went to college, we didn't have to go to a private bank to take out a loan that would have us in hock for the next 20 years, a loan that would eventually have us paying $500,000 to the bank just so we could go to college. When we went to college, there was a sign on a door that said "Financial Aid Office," and you went in there and you got a grant or a scholarship, work study, you might have to work in the library 10 hours a week, you know, maybe a low-interest loan, like a one or two percent, pay it back when you can to the college.

I mean, that's the way it worked. People got to go to school and you weren't in debt. Our 22-year-olds now, when they leave college, they are socked with so much credit card debt because, of course, the credit cards are all over the campus encouraging kids to sign up for these things. And they're in student loan debt.

The noose is already around their neck, and they don't really maybe get to go and explore their dreams, or work the jobs that they would like to work, because they have to get to work right away at any job they can get because they have to start paying off these loans and these credit cards. It wasn't that way 30 years ago.

But this beast, this beast call capitalism, just got so out of control and it just said, you know, I'm going to gobble up whatever I can gobble up. And it's an insatiable beast. You can never stop it. And even when it's exposed for being a corrupt system, like it was in this last year, it just moves on to the next thing to suck money out of.

SANCHEZ: Well, then why is it -- you know, it's funny, because I don't think anybody who just listened to you say that, whether they are on the right or on the left, Republican, Libertarian, whatever the heck they call themselves, are going to disagree with what you said, but yet when we watch protests, all we hear people say is give more power to the corporations and take it away from the government.

How have they been able to pull what appears to be a snow job off?

MOORE: Well, that's a very good question. It's the classic Ponzi scheme, really. Isn't it?

It's a pyramid where the people at the top of the pyramid, the richest one percent in America who have more financial wealth than the bottom 95 percent combined, they're at the top of the pyramid. Their job is to convince everybody else in the lower parts of the pyramid to believe that they, too, can get to the top of the pyramid if they just work hard and support the corporation.

And so have you all the -- all the worker ants down here thinking they can get to the top, when only a few people can actually sit on the top. And that's the sat part of this.

But I think the other problem is, too, is that people on my side of the political fence, the people who consider themselves liberals, or whatever, need to quit complaining about people on the right or conservatives who are showing up at these meetings or having their demonstrations. I mean, this is a free country. That's great that they are involved in the political process if that's what they believe in.

Where are we? Where are the millions who voted for President Obama? You know, he looks like he's out there all alone, like nobody's got his back.

SANCHEZ: That's a good point, but, you know, it's hard to compete with $400 million spent between January and August of this year...

MOORE: Right.

SANCHEZ: ... by companies who want to make sure it's only their message that gets out, which, by the way, is the most that's ever been spent on any legislative debate in the history of the United States. That has got to have an influence, too, doesn't it?

MOORE: That's correct. It has a huge influence, and I know that firsthand from my last film, because as Wendell Potter, the vice president of Cigna Health Insurance, who became a whistleblower last month, came forward with the documents to show how much money they spent, all the health insurance companies, on trying to discredit me or my film when he said my film, "Sicko," everything in it was true. And I knew what he said as the vice president of a health insurance company, but we spend all this time and money trying to stop Michael Moore.

It's amazing. I mean, that was just a movie. I'm thinking if they are that upset or thinking that a movie is going to have that kind of impact, I know what they are doing right now on Capitol Hill. They are spending tens of millions of dollars to stop what the 75 percent of the people of this country want -- universal health care.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: They are not done just yet. The question on Cuba after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HOLMES: All right. What does Jesus have to do with capitalism?

The rest now of the discussion between Rick Sanchez and Michael Moore.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SANCHEZ: Last question, Michael, because I'm being told that you have got 50 other interviews you're doing, and I understand that. You're a hot property right now. Good for you.

As a guy who was born in a communist country, Cuba, we look at the criticism of capitalism, and some people would argue, well, hold on there, Mr. Moore. We don't want to get rid of capitalism entirely, right? And is that the argument that you're making? Because if we get rid of it, we're left with totalitarianism, correct? MOORE: Yes. Unfortunately, the people who call themselves capitalists got rid of capitalism. They got rid of the old system where if you worked hard, you were rewarded for it. If you made things, if you invented the next light bulb or the next Internet, you were able to do well.

Right now, we're just, like I said, making money off money. And I'm glad you brought that up about, you know, communism and where you come from.

Pope John Paul II, who is also a very avid anti-Communist coming from Poland, and when the Berlin Wall came down he was very happy about that. But he issued a speech and he said, "I'm glad this evil system has been eliminated in Eastern Europe, but there's one other system that has a lot of evil in it, too, because it benefits the few at the expense of the many." And that's not what Jesus said is correct.

Jesus said that we're to take care of the poor, that the rich man is going to have a very hard time getting into heaven. And I believe in that. That's my own personal faith. And I think that if we had more democracy in our economy -- in other words, where you and I had some say in how this economy is run, and a moral and ethical core to it based on our Judeo-Christian values that we claim to have as a country, but all the great religions say the same thing about the wealthy cannot -- a person cannot come to the table and take nine slices of the pie and leave one slice for everyone else at the table.

That's just -- it's a sin. It's unfair. It's anti-American. It's got to be stopped. And I'm hoping that my fellow Americans will involve themselves in the political process and make that happen.

SANCHEZ: And we'll be going to see your movie, because I understand it's well done.

MOORE: Well, thank you. And it's a comedy.

(LAUGHTER)

SANCHEZ: Just stay on that mega horn.

I appreciate it.

Michael Moore, quoting the Prince of Peace.

Good opportunity to talk to you. Thanks for being with us.

MOORE: Thank you, sir. Thank you.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HOLMES: And Rick will be back with you after his weekend off. Be sure to join him this evening, filling in for Campbell Brown.

I will see you back here tomorrow morning, bright and early, or just early, along with Betty Nguyen, for "CNN SATURDAY MORNING."

But now it's time for me to hand it over to Wolf Blitzer and "THE SITUATION ROOM."