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Interview With Michael Moore; Gadhafi Meets With Pan Am Families
Aired September 25, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, these are the questions that we want answered. Why can't he just say I did it and I'm sorry? Moammar Gadhafi meets with families of the 270 people killed by the bombing of Pan Am 103. And what do you think he says. He talks about his daughter's death. Is he justifying the bombing?
Michael Moore joins me to talk about his new movie. I tell him pure socialism is bad. So, what's wrong with capitalism?
MICHAEL MOORE, DOCUMENTARY FILMMAKER: This beast, this beast called capitalism just got so out of control, and it just said, you know, I'm going to gobble up whatever I can gobble up. And it's an insatiable beast. You can never stop it.
SANCHEZ: Also tonight, our special investigation: Did the Marine Corps ignore contaminated water at Camp Lejeune?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five years, they knew they had the stuff in the tap water. I feel like I have been betrayed.
SANCHEZ: Did the water do this to 20 Marines, who like this man are sick with breast cancer? We're asking Marine Corps officials.
A motorist stuck in rising water. It's a killer in the Atlanta floods and may happen more often than you think. I do the unthinkable, something I would never do again. I go into a canal in a car to show you how to get out and barely get out myself.
And new tonight, why is Bill Clinton saying he's now changed his mind on same-sex marriage?
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: But me, Bill Clinton, personally, I have changed my position.
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. In for Campbell Brown, Rick Sanchez.
SANCHEZ: All right, buddy, we have got a lot going on. Campbell Brown is off tonight and those are some of the big questions, but we start as always with a look at the stories that are making an impact right now and the moments that you may have missed. Here is our "Mash-Up." Tonight, the president has come out and said it, flat out. Iran is deceiving the world by secretly operating an underground nuclear plant hidden from international weapons inspectors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: President Obama says Iran is now on notice. It can stop pursuing nuclear weapons or it can face a confrontation from the West.
ANDREA MITCHELL, NBC CHIEF FOREIGN AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: In a dramatic display of allied unity, the president accused Iran of building an underground plant to produce nuclear fuel, not for a power plant, but for bombs.
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The size and configuration of this facility is inconsistent with a peaceful program.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: For months, intelligence agencies from the U.S., Britain and France have been collecting evidence of a site they say is underground, in a mountain, on a military base about 100 miles southwest of Tehran.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Sarkozy said the deadline is December for Iran to comply with international demands to end their nuclear weapons program or face harsh sanctions.
OBAMA: Specifically with respect to the military, I have always said that we don't rule out any options when it comes to U.S. security interests.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Mr. Ahmadinejad said Iran is in compliance with nuclear treaties and with the U.N. nuclear watchdog agency.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: So, obviously, this puts the ball on the other side. Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is going to be Larry King's guest tonight at 9:00 p.m. This is a must-see interview, if there ever was one.
All right, the president tonight is pleading for patience on Afghanistan, while Republicans suggest that they want to hear from Commander Stanley McChrystal himself, who says, without more troops, the U.S. will fail.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
OBAMA: This is not easy, and I would expect that the public would ask some very tough questions. That's exactly what I'm doing, is asking some very tough questions. And, you know, we're not going to arrive at perfect answers. I think anybody who's looked at the situation recognizes that it's difficult and it's complicated.
But my solemn obligation is to make sure that I get the best answers possible, particularly before I make decisions about sending additional troops into the theater.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: All right, so here's what else is going on with Afghanistan tonight.
General McChrystal traveled to Germany to deliver his recommendations to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. But before he left, McChrystal sat down for an interview with "60 Minutes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Are things worse or better than you expected?
GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, U.S. COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN: They are probably a little worse.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What's worse than you thought?
MCCHRYSTAL: Well, I think that, in some areas, the breadth of violence, the geographic spread of violence, places to the north and to the west, are a little more than I would have gathered.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: We should tell you that McChrystal is expected to return to Washington before too long to brief the president in person.
Well, here at home, authorities are trying to determine if a string of alleged terrorist plots is more than just a bunch of isolated incidents. And several, by the way, involve the charge of planning to use weapons of mass destruction.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JEANNE MESERVE, CNN HOMELAND SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Bomb plots allegedly targeting New York, Dallas, Texas, and Springfield, Illinois, all unfolding in the same week.
DIANE SAWYER, CO-HOST, "GOOD MORNING AMERICA": In Springfield, Illinois, today, a court appearance for the man arrested yesterday for planning to blow up the federal building, while some 600 miles away, a man in Dallas accused of a similar plan to blow up a downtown office building was also in court.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All this coming to light on the same day a Denver man is indicting for allegedly joining forces with al Qaeda to conduct a bombing campaign inside the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Najibullah Zazi is now charged with conspiracy to use weapons of mass destruction on U.S. soil.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: New video of Zazi at a beauty supply store. The FBI says he was buying mass quantities of hydrogen peroxide to use in explosives. BLITZER: He was taken to the Brooklyn Detention Center just a little while ago and will face arraignment.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All these incidents apparently are not connected, but you have to forgive people across the country if they're a little bit nervous right now, because there certainly is a pattern.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: There's one last note on the Zazi case. This is chilling. Prosecutors are now saying that he intended to detonate a bomb in New York City on the anniversary of the September 11 attacks.
Tonight, a surprisingly candid comment from former President Bill Clinton. While making the rounds to promote his Global Initiative, he told my colleague Anderson Cooper that he's had a change of heart about same-sex marriage.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ANDERSON COOPER, HOST, "ANDERSON COOPER 360": You said you recently changed your mind on same-sex marriage. I'm wondering what you mean by that. Do you now believe that gay people should have full rights to civil marriage nationwide?
CLINTON: I do. I think that -- well, let me get back to the last point, the last word.
I believe, historically, for 200-and-some years, marriage has been a question left to the states and the religious institutions. I still think that's where it belongs.
That is, I -- I was against a constitutional amendment to ban gay marriage nationwide. And I still think that the American people should be able to play this out in debates.
But me, Bill Clinton, personally, I have changed my position. I -- I am no longer opposed to that. I think, if people want to make commitments that last a lifetime, they ought to be able to do it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Anderson's sit-down with the former president is coming up in less than two hours.
Tonight, there's a new warning out there about spanking kids. Now, take it for what it's worth, from one who has, by the way, been spanked himself.
These researchers have -- we have been talking to say it can cause a sort of post-traumatic stress, which can lead to a lower I.Q. We plan to have some tape for you there. Hopefully, we will get it for you a little bit later. There you have it. Now, here is tonight's "Punchline," and it also involves Bill Clinton, who we were just talking about, or at least "SNL"'s take on the former president and the new book "The Clinton Tapes."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SETH MEYERS, ACTOR: Here now to discuss the tapes, the 42nd president of the United States, Bill Clinton.
MEYERS: There's a brief mention of the Monica Lewinsky scandal. Do these new tapes shed more light on that?
DARRELL HAMMOND, ACTOR: Yes, the American people deserve the truth. And as much as it pains me to do this, I would like to play a tape that reveals in full my relationship with Ms. Lewinsky.
HAMMOND: Well, hello there, you must be the new intern.
HAMMOND: Oh, no, I must have recorded over that tape.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: There you have it. That's Darrell Hammond and Seth Meyers, of course.
And that is the "Mash-Up."
Up next, a CNN exclusive. Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, we have the interview. Hear what he's saying now about the Lockerbie bombing. And it's not "I'm sorry," by the way. This guy's a character, as you will see for yourself.
Also, our special investigation, a group of 20 Marines, all men with breast cancer, breast cancer, and they all have one thing in common. They all served at Camp Lejeune. Did toxic water from there make them sick, and why won't the military do anything to help them?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We were being exposed when we went bowling. We were being exposed when we went to the commissary. We were being exposed when we went to the P.X. And then, when we went home, we were being exposed over there.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
We're going to do something a little risky right now and try to get inside the mind of Moammar Gadhafi, if that's even possible. We have an exclusive interview with him.
And what I want to know, what I think most people would want to know is why he can't say something like "I'm sorry that my country supported the bombing of a plane that killed 170 innocent people." It's pretty simple.
Look at the pictures. Let's start there. This is the aftermath of the bombing of Pan Am Flight 103 in December 1988. All 243 passengers killed, 16 crew members killed, 11 people on the ground there in Scotland also killed. Libyan agent Abdel Basset Ali al- Megrahi was the only person convicted of the crime. Again -- let me say that again in case you didn't hear that. He was a Libyan agent.
So, now listen to what Gadhafi tells CNN's Fareed Zakaria about this bombing.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MOAMMAR GADHAFI, LIBYAN LEADER (through translator): It was a friendly meeting, friendly encounter. And I offered my condolences for the relatives who lost them. Then they also -- they also -- yes, they also expressed their condolences for my daughter who was killed during the American raid in '86.
FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN WORLD AFFAIRS ANALYST: The 1986 raid?
GADHAFI (through translator): Yes. It was very -- it was very sentimental and very touched, the meeting.
ZAKARIA: So you understand the grief of these -- these people?
GADHAFI (through translator): It is a tragedy. It is a catastrophe.
ZAKARIA: And -- and do you regret any possible role that officials of the Libyan government might have played?
GADHAFI (through translator): No one -- no one will support an action like that on -- would not be touched and moved by such a tragedy. Whether it is Lockerbie or whether it is the '86 raid against Libya, we are all families of the victims, because resorting to violence, because the result violence is the result of terror.
Terror, in all its forms, is a common enemy to all of us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: If you're confused, so are we, because it doesn't sound like he's owning up in that interview.
But he did speak about the 1986 raid. That's the one he was talking about there when he was referring to his daughter. Let me give you some background on this. This is important. I will take you through the story.
In that reference, it was April 14 of that year. President Ronald Reagan did order airstrikes on Tripoli that are believed to have killed some 40 people, including Gadhafi's 15-month-old daughter. That's important.
But you know what else is important? Perspective on that. Why did President Reagan do that? Well, let me show you these pictures now. Here's something Gadhafi didn't mention when he was talking to Zakaria.
Just days before that raid, there was a bombing of a disco in Berlin. The place was packed with American troops. Two Americans and a Turkish woman were killed. Scores of others were badly burned. That's important. The prime suspect in the case in this bombing? Libya.
All right, now I want to do this. I want to bring in one of the family members who met with Gadhafi. This is Lisa Gibson. It's her brother Ken Gibson who was one of the passengers. There he is. He was on that plane and he was killed. Lisa is good enough to join us now.
Lisa, how are you doing?
LISA GIBSON, FAMILY MEMBER OF LOCKERBIE BOMBING VICTIM: I'm doing well. Thanks for having me.
SANCHEZ: Look, I don't feel after listening to what he told Fareed there that he was apologizing. As a matter of fact, let me even be a little more specific. Let me look at these notes. You tell me if I'm wrong.
When he was asked point blank about regrets, he then rationalized and stammered. He says, "No one will support an action like that."
Well, guess what? His government did support an action like that. That's why they paid $2.7 billion in restitution, right?
GIBSON: I mean, as far as the world is concerned, there was a conviction, there was an acceptance of responsibility, and there was a payment of civil damages. So, from the world's perspective, they have accepted responsibility. And I think that's what's most important.
SANCHEZ: OK. So you walk into this meeting with Mr. Gadhafi. And I would expect, if I were you, that he would come to you and he would say, I'm sorry for what my country did to your loved one and those 169 other people, and I take responsibility in some way.
Did he say that? Did he own up?
And, in fact, Libya has always said that they were not responsible. And so that has been the posture that they have taken consistently. And even when I wrote a letter of forgiveness to Megrahi in prison, he himself apologized for the loss, saying he was sorry for what happened to my brother, but even then saying that he wasn't responsible.
SANCHEZ: So, essentially, what did Gadhafi say to you? Take us through that meeting, from the first meeting of your eyes through the first handshake. What happened? What did you say? What did he say?
GIBSON: Well, all along, I have taken the posture of reaching out to Libya, hoping to build a bridge of reconciliation. As far as I'm concerned, only God knows if they're really responsible. So, that's the posture I have taken. I have...
SANCHEZ: But wait. But wait. But wait. But wait.
I'm reading here -- Am I wrong? It's not just God that knows he's responsible. I'm Rick Sanchez that knows he's responsible, and I'm nowhere near heaven. Hope to one day get there. I'm reading, he paid $2.7 million in restitution. Two of the people involved were Libyan agents. And al-Megrahi himself was a Libyan agent.
He was responsible, was he not?
GIBSON: As I said, as far as the world's concerned, he was in fact responsible.
So, the posture now, from my perspective, is to focus on the future. I think justice was done. And now we want to focus on reconciling and focusing on prevention of future terrorist attacks. And that's why I'm doing the work that I'm doing in Libya.
SANCHEZ: I got -- I admire that. I really do. I wonder if other Americans, including myself, would be able to do that. I mean, you're obviously a very benevolent person.
What do you say to some of the other family members who criticize you for meeting with this guy, and they say that by meeting with him, you're giving him more credit than he deserves? What do you say to them?
GIBSON: I think that the heart of what I'm about is to be an ambassador of reconciliation, is just to show my faith requires me to forgive and to find a way to love my enemies.
This is America. We have the right to do and believe what it is we choose. I understand that not everyone agrees with this, that I am really taking the road less traveled.
GIBSON: But I will tell you that it means a lot to the Libyan people. I have had the privilege of going there three times. And every single time I go, people are so thankful that I'm willing to come and to meet them and to find out what their lives look like.
And I have actually had conversations with people about of the 1986 terrorist bombing -- excuse me -- of Tripoli and all of that to find out what it's been like for them. And they have authentically appreciated my willingness to come there and do that.
SANCHEZ: You're holding your ground. Good for you.
Lisa, thanks so much. A lot of people will criticize you. A lot of people will find fault with what you're saying and what you do, but you seem to be true to what you believe. We thank you for being on.
GIBSON: Thank you for having me.
SANCHEZ: Tonight's newsmaker is Michael Moore. He says that unfettered greed and capitalism are ruining this country. My interview with him is coming up in just a little bit.
Also, our special investigation -- more than a dozen Marines, all men with breast cancer, did some kind of exposure cause them to get sick at Camp Lejeune?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Five years, they knew they had the stuff in the tap water. They never went and tested their wells. I think it's -- it's criminal.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: Welcome back.
We're going to be bringing you the very latest on those 20 Marines who are saying that they have been abandoned by their government and by the U.S. military in a case where they all have the same illness. They all have breast cancer, interestingly enough. It's an investigative story that we're going to share with you.
But first, there's something going on right now that I have got to tell you about. It's in Kentucky. It's a census worker who has been found dead. And, interestingly enough, we have kind of stayed away from this story because there were just not enough details.
But there are some new details coming in tonight that really share a different light on this thing.
ERICA HILL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: They do. We're getting a little bit more detail.
As you said, though, we have been kind of hesitant to report too much on it, because there were so many unanswered questions here. A few details coming to light tonight in a bizarre story that frankly seems to get even more bizarre as we learn more about it, the death of a U.S. census worker. A relative who was among those to find the body of Bill Sparkman in a Kentucky cemetery tells the Associated Press Sparkman was nude and had both his hands and feet bound with duct tape. That relative also says Sparkman was gagged and had duct tape over his eyes and neck and also something resembling an identification tag taped to the side of his neck.
Now, earlier today, the coroner in Clay County, Kentucky, confirmed to CNN the word "fed" was in fact scrawled in felt-tip ink on Sparkman's chest. Law enforcement has also said Sparkman, who was found on December 12, died from asphyxiation, but clearly continuing to follow this for you because there's still a number of questions.
SANCHEZ: And that's all new. All this stuff about the duct tape, the legs and arms bound and naked, that's all brand-new.
HILL: That's all new right now. That's right.
HILL: And the confirmation today that came that in fact that word was scrawled across his body, because it had been rumored, but now confirmation.
SANCHEZ: This is important. It's a cause, really. More and more soldiers and Marines who sacrificed their lives for us complain that they're not getting the medical care that they need when they come back. I'm sure you have heard the stories, or probably know somebody who's made that complaint.
Next, we have got a special investigative report about 20 U.S. Marines who have developed breast cancer -- breast cancer. They're men. And they say the corps is not taking care of them.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Having been a former drill instructor, where I trained over 2,000 brand-new civilians and made them into Marines, I instilled in those new Marines our motto, which is semper fidelis, our slogan that we take care of our own. Nobody in this world has been more disillusioned than I have been. I feel like I have been betrayed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: And welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez.
Something terrible is happening to men who were willing to give their lives to keep our nation safe. Retired Marines are getting sick, terminally ill, in fact, in some cases. And they are convinced it's because of their time stationed at a base right here in the United States. Perhaps even more disturbing, many of them feel the government has turned its back on them when they need the government most.
Abbie Boudreau of our Special Investigations Unit is here now. She has part one of this report. We want you to watch this. It's something all Americans should watch. It's called "Poisoned Patriots."
ABBIE BOUDREAU, CNN SPECIAL INVESTIGATIONS UNIT (voice-over): Seven former Marines, or sons of Marines, all with a rare disease, male breast cancer, all of them fear their rare cancers may have been caused by contaminated water at the U.S. Marine base in Camp Lejeune, North Carolina.
RICK KELLY, FORMER MARINE: I started feeling discomfort in the chest. My wife would hug me and it became, you know, almost unbearable.
BOUDREAU: Rick Kelly was a young Marine at Camp Lejeune from 1980 through 1982. He was diagnosed with breast cancer in 1998.
KELLY: I went to a doctor and they sent me to the oncologist and they did biopsies on both sides, and I ended up with a double mastectomy.
BOUDREAU: Now, a single father of an adopted seven year old son with no insurance, Kelly tried to file a claim to help with continuing medical bills. He was told by his local V.A. office that he had no claim, as his illness has not been proven to be a service-related injury.
KELLY: When I went to the V.A. to see my local representative, they said, well, it's not the V.A.'s problem, it's the Marine Corps' problem.
PETER DEVEREAUX, FORMER MARINE: You know, a lot of us went right out of high school. We're so proud to serve our country and all these things like this and it was honestly my honor to serve my country. I felt such tremendous pride.
BOUDREAU: Peter Devereaux was a Marine at Lejeune at around the same time. He also tried to get help from the V.A. His claim was denied earlier this year, because his breast cancer according to the V.A. neither occurred in nor was caused by service. These men say the Marine Corps should acknowledge the contaminated water made them sick, making them all eligible for V.A. benefits.
DEVEREAUX: They totally try to ignore this problem. They want it to go away, and it kind of makes you sick, you know, with disgust.
BOUDREAU: These seven men are among the hundreds who allege illnesses caused by water contamination at Camp Lejeune. Some 1,600 claims have been filed against the federal government by former Marines and base residents, seeking nearly $35 billion in compensation. But with no definitive link found between the illnesses and the contaminated water, no claims have been paid.
JERRY ENSMINGER, FORMER MARINE: We were being exposed when we went bowling. We were being exposed when we went to the commissary. We were being exposed when we went to the PX. And then when we went home, we were being exposed over there.
BOUDREAU: Jerry Ensminger, a former Marine drill instructor, lived at Camp Lejeune with his family in 1976 when his daughter, Jane (ph), was born. Ensminger's daughter died of childhood leukemia nine years later.
Ensminger and others say the Marine Corps waited too long to test and shut down the wells after learning the drinking water was contaminated.
ENSMINGER: Five years they knew they had this stuff in the tap water. They never went and tested the wells. (INAUDIBLE) it's criminal.
BOUDREAU: As early as 1980, according to these documents, experts hired by the Navy to test the tap water found it was highly contaminated. In 1981, the lab again wrote, water highly contaminated, adding the word "solvents" with an exclamation point.
FRANK BOVE, AGENCY FOR TOXIC SUBSTANCES & DISEASE REGISTRY: These are very toxic chemicals we're talking about.
BOUDREAU: In August 1982, the experts found in one sample, levels of trichloroethylene believed to cause cancer, levels of 1,400 parts per billion. That's 240 times higher than today's EPA safe levels.
BOVE: We've never seen 1,400 parts per billion trichloroethylene, so that is very high.
BOUDREAU: But it would take more than two years, until late 1984 and early 1985 for the corps to test all the wells and shut down the contaminated ones. In a statement to CNN, the corps wrote, "Once impacted wells were identified, they were promptly removed from service."
A fact-finding panel created by the corps five years ago ruled officials acted properly and that the water was "consistent with general industry practices at the time."
Two years ago, Congress ordered the Marine Corps to notify all Marines and their families who might have been exposed -- an estimated half a million people.
RICHARD CLAPP, BOSTON UNIVERSITY: This is a population of people who lived at Camp Lejeune and were exposed to very high levels of toxic chemicals in their drinking water.
BOUDREAU: Richard Clapp is a national recognized epidemiologist who has studied cancer clusters at toxic sites. CLAPP: And so I think that if cancer of the breast in men or other kinds of cancer have been link to this exposure, that we ought to know about that. The families deserve that. The veterans themselves should know about that, and they should be compensated if the link can be made.
BOUDREAU: But for now, there is no proven link, just Marines and their families who say they're suffering.
ENSMINGER: Having been a former drill instructor, where I trained over 2,000 brand new civilians that made them into Marines, I instilled in those new Marines our motto which is "Semper Fidelis," our slogan that we take care of our own. Nobody in this world has been more disillusioned than I've been. I feel like I've been betrayed.
RICK SANCHEZ, CNN ANCHOR: It's a great piece of journalism, and I think that part of that story that gets me is those men seem to be -- to be extremely credible. I mean, you believe them. They don't look like they have a lie in their hearts.
So, Abbie is here again. And I understand there are even more developments tonight that you're now ready to report?
BOUDREAU: Right. So much has happened in just the last 24 hours. And we've already heard from so many people.
So far, CNN has learned of at least seven more cases of Marines who say they lived on the military base for a period of time and were also diagnosed with male breast cancer. We even heard from one woman who says her brother was a Marine. He also lived at Camp Lejeune during the '70s. He said her brother four years ago after suffering breast cancer. And, Rick, he was only 51 years old.
SANCHEZ: All right, let's do this. I'm sure there's a lot of people at home who have watched this report and they're probably thinking to themselves, the obvious question, why isn't the U.S. Marine Corps taking care of its own? Where are they -- why aren't they taking care of these guys? Or maybe they are. Maybe we don't understand.
That is Major General Carl Jensen of the U.S. Marine Corps right there. When we come back, he will courageously take the tough questions and deal with this horrible situation up front.
SANCHEZ: Welcome back, I'm Rick Sanchez. Abbie Boudreau is going to be staying with us here. But after watching that report, you can't help but feel for those Marines with breast cancer. And imagine how difficult that must be for them just to tell their stories.
Their case seems pretty convincing. That it was in fact contaminated drinking water at Camp Lejeune that may have caused this condition for them.
Major General Carl Jensen is the commanding general of Marine Corps installations east. He's good enough to join us now from Washington.
Major, thank you for being with us, sir.
MAJ. GEN. CARL B. JENSEN, U.S. MARINE CORPS: Thank you. Good to be here.
SANCHEZ: Let me ask you, as you probably heard me just allude to, most Americans watching us right now are probably thinking, these men allege that they're not being taken care of by the corps. What is your response to them?
JENSEN: Well, first off, our hearts, our thoughts, our prayers are with all those who are suffering. Both those who you've highlighted in your show the past two days and those you haven't.
The Marine Corps has invested approximately $15 million to study this issue. We have funded studies, most recently with the National Research Council from the Academy of Sciences to try and determine a causal relationship. I know you're intimate with this story, so you know how important that is to establish a service-related disability for these men and women who are suffering.
SANCHEZ: But what about -- what about -- and, sir, I certainly don't mean to interrupt. But cutting to the chase here, I heard those men say to you, and I think that's what I heard, right, Abbie? That you, the Marine Corps knew at least five years into that water having a problem there at the base, and nothing was done about it, nothing was said. Do you not agree that that in and of itself makes you liable?
JENSEN: Here's what happened. That water was tested, re-tested. We were in full compliance with the Environmental Protection Agency regulations.
There were three studies that were done examining all of the actions associated over that five-year period from '80 to '85. One was conducted by the EPA, another one by GAO, and a third was a commandant of the Marine Corps directed fact-finding session that involved outside independent agencies. All three of those determined that the Marine Corps acted appropriately.
SANCHEZ: Is that right, Abbie?
Let me bring Abbie into here, just to counter you, sir, respectfully, of course.
BOUDREAU: So, general, are you saying that the Marine Corps does not have any responsibility here?
JENSEN: The Marine Corps I believe fulfilled its requirements under the EPA using EPA guidelines. You know, frankly here -- and I don't mean to sound like an apologist, and I don't want to come across like one, but we're looking at events through a 21st century prism. This whole notion of environmental sensitivities and water sampling, this was very new at the time. And we --
BOUDREAU: But, sir -- but, general --
BOUDREAU: With all due respect, at that time you knew that it was, of course, dangerous to spill toxins and toxic chemicals into the ground at that point. You can't possibly say that just because the EPA didn't have a standard, that you didn't know that was wrong at that point?
JENSEN: We weren't dumping toxic chemicals into the ground.
BOUDREAU: Really? Degreasers and things like that, and we do know that that is a fact.
JENSEN: We were properly disposing them.
BOUDREAU: We even talked to a Marine who we interviewed who said that they were dumping that stuff into the ground, because that's what they were told to do at that time even though it didn't feel right.
JENSEN: At what time now?
BOUDREAU: In the '70s? '70s, '80s? Beyond -- beyond all of these details, I think what the people want to know the most is what do you have to say to these Marines right now who are out there who have some of them have a year left to live?
SANCHEZ: What can the court do for them?
JENSEN: I understand completely. We think because of the critical nature of complying with the statutory requirement that the Veterans Administration to prove a service related disability, that's the nexus we need to go after. That's why in the most recently completed study, we were trying to determine whether or not these illnesses could be attributed to drinking the water at Camp Lejeune.
SANCHEZ: When do you think -- can you give us a timetable? When do you think you will have an answer, a definitive answer for what these men say they are convinced, because of the fact that they were now 27 of them there, they've all contracted the very same situation, some of which are soon to die according to their doctors, when will you have an answer for them because they're going to start to feel like they're being pushed aside?
JENSEN: I understand completely and I wish I had a great answer for you. I don't. The fact of the matter is when science permits us to do so, these patriots are looking for closure on this.
SANCHEZ: Yes. Yes, they are.
JENSEN: The Marine Corps is looking for the same thing. SANCHEZ: Yes, they are. Sir, you're courageous to come here and take the heat. I know it's a difficult situation for the corps, but it's obviously a very difficult situation for those men on whose behalf we have told this story. My thanks to you, sir.
JENSEN: Absolutely heartrending.
SANCHEZ: I appreciate it. And, Abbie, thanks so much. Good reporting. Let us know if anything changes on this and we'll continue to stay on top of it.
SANCHEZ: All right. Michael Moore's new movie is called "Capitalism, A Love Story." If you know Michael Moore, you know it's probably not a real love story. In fact he's convinced, as you're going to hear him tell me in just a moment here, that uncontrolled, unfettered, unregulated capitalism and greed are ruining the United States of America. That's what his movie is about and he's next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: Where are we? Where are the millions who voted for President Obama? You know, he looks like he's out there all alone, like nobody's got his back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
SANCHEZ: I welcome you back. I'm Rick Sanchez. I was born in a communist country, so I am obviously no fan of socialism or Marxism, as I told Michael Moore. But Michael Moore, a man born in this country says sometimes the real enemy can be capitalism.
His new movie is called, in fact, "Capitalism, A Love Story." And for those of you who think he's too much of a lefty to ever criticize President Obama, listen to what he said about the president when I talked to him about this.
SANCHEZ: It's funny because we're going through a time in America, I've been reading all these signs and all these banners and bumper stickers, they say the president of the United States is a socialist, if not a communist. You say what?
MICHAEL MOORE, FILMMAKER: The only socialism I've seen in the last year is the welfare payments that we've made to Wall Street bailing them out. It's just so funny how up is down all of a sudden.
It -- I think President Obama has inherited a catastrophe and he's doing the best he can at this point. I think a lot of us wish he would move a little faster, do a little better. But we're lucky to have him in the Oval office right now. This is when you want the smart guy in there. SANCHEZ: However -- however, you know, I've been reading and listening to you lately, and you're saying, you know what? This guy needs to be pressured and he needs to be held accountable. In fact, you're even more terse than that. Explain it for our viewers.
MOORE: Well, I mean millions of people voted for him on the promise of change. Real change. Now here we are a year later, and with all the talk about how we just have to regulate Wall Street and everything will be OK again, where's the regulations? Where's the rules?
I mean, they're all thinking up new derivatives on life insurance now. So, I think that, again, the president has, you know, he's got a tough job in front of him. I wouldn't want the job, but he's brought in Mr. Geithner and Mr. Summers and Mr. Rubin, three of the architects of this mess. And it's kind of like how the big banks, they actually hire bank robbers to advice them on how to prevent bank robberies. So maybe President Obama has brought this three in to advise them on how to fix the mess they help to create.
SANCHEZ: When we watched protests, all we hear people say is give more power to the corporations and take it away from the government. How have they been able to pull what appears to be a snow job off?
MOORE: Well, that's a very good question. It's the classic Ponzi scheme, really, isn't it? It's a pyramid, where the people at the top of the pyramid, the richest one percent in America, who have more financial wealth, than the bottom 95 percent combined, they're at the top of the pyramid. Their job is to convince everybody else in the lower parts of the pyramid to believe that they too can get to the top of the pyramid if they just work hard and support the corporation.
And so, you have all the -- all the worker ants down here thinking they can get to the top when only a few people can actually sit on the top. And that's -- that's the sad part of this. But I think the other problem is, too, is that people on my side of the political fence, people who consider themselves liberals or whatever, need to quit complaining about people on the right or conservatives who are showing up at these meetings or having their demonstrations. I mean this is a free country, that's great that they're involved in the political process, if that's what they believe in.
Where are we? Where are the millions who voted for President Obama? You know, he looks like he's out there all alone, like nobody's got his back.
SANCHEZ: As a guy who was born in a communist country, Cuba, we look at the criticism of capitalism and some people would argue, well, hold on there, Mr. Moore, we don't want to get rid of capitalism entirely, right? And is that the argument that you're making? Because if we get rid of it, we're left with totalitarianism, correct?
MOORE: Yes, unfortunately, the people who call themselves capitalists got rid of capitalism. They got rid of the old system where, you know, if you worked hard you were rewarded for it. If you made things, if you invented the next light bulb or the next Internet, you were able to do well. Right now, we're just, like I said, making money off of money.
SANCHEZ: Michael Moore. By the way, this week, a woman in Atlanta died because she didn't know how to get out of a car that had been swept away in a flood. When we come back, I'm going to share with you something that I did to show people how they can save their own lives in that situation. Something that frankly was somewhat foolish on my part, but it's still important, something that frankly I wish I hadn't done.
SANCHEZ: Welcome back. I'm Rick Sanchez. After watching all these floods in Atlanta this week, I thought it was important to bring you a story that's been shared with me about how many people like those actually die in their cars every year. So I went to Miami to prove that you can get out of a car in that situation, although it's still extremely dangerous. Watch this.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): To say that Miami police officer Julius Wiggins, who's also a dive master is passionate about teaching people how to get out of a sinking car would be an understatement. His goal, to reach as many people with what he calls "the basics."
JULIUS WIGGINS, MIAMI POLICE DIVE MASTER: Seat belt first.
SANCHEZ (on camera): OK.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Then unlock the car door.
WIGGINS: OK. Then roll down the window.
WIGGINS: And then start climbing out. Then what you're going to do, you're going to work your way out here quickly like this. Once you're sitting here, all you have to do is just push yourself off.
SANCHEZ (voice-over): If ever there's been an appropriate use of the term dry run, this is it.
WIGGINS: You're going in the water. Seat belt first, unlock the door, start climbing out.
SANCHEZ (on camera): Got it.
(voice-over): And now, the real thing. The car plunges into the canal headfirst, then bobs back, allowing enough time to put the basic plan into action. With me inside the car, photographer Rich Brooks (ph) who is a certified diver.
From his pictures, you can see I'm working fast to take advantage of what is a perfect scenario. The car has leveled out, giving me time to open the window and get out before it sinks.
However on my second attempt, the car turns slightly, forcing the water in faster, slowing my exit. With the seat belt off, the lock undone, the window rolled down, I take a final breath and climb out.
My third attempt takes a bit longer, but I'm realizing window exit seemed most effective. Whether it's a roll down or electric, it doesn't matter as long as you don't remove the keys from the ignition. Remember, even underwater, your battery will continue to operate the windows
What happens, though, if the window is stuck or for some reason simply isn't working? This window is being shattered under water using a tool called a power punch, that motorists are urged to buy and keep in their glove box.
Now the last dive, an attempt to get out through the door. From inside the vehicle you can see how it looks when I leave the window rolled up. The water is now seeping in from elsewhere, and quickly filling the cabin. I try to push on the door, but it seems jammed.
Outside the cars, divers are also trying to unjam the door to let me out, but are unable to do so. Admittedly, it's a chilling moment.
I grab for the emergency air supply left in the front seat, rush it to my mouth and wait nervously for the car to be hoisted out of the water. With me still inside, breathing, waiting, and with a much better understanding now of how important it is to know the basics, how to act fast and how to get out alive.
SANCHEZ: That scares me just to look at. I even did that. I wouldn't do it again.
By the way, this is what I'm talking about. That's that punch they were describing. I got that point -- small point of impact can make a difference between drowning and getting out alive.
That's it for us tonight. Have a great weekend. Here's Larry.