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Health Care Reform Showdown; War Strategy for Afghanistan; Teen Beaten to Death, 4 in Custody

Aired September 29, 2009 - 12:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: Moving on. Time for your top-of-the- hour reset.

I'm Tony Harris in the CNN NEWSROOM.

It is noon on Capitol Hill, where liberal senators are making another push for a government-run health care insurance option.

At the White House, President Obama opens a series of meetings to reassess his Afghanistan war strategy.

It is 11:00 a.m. in Chicago, where a fourth suspect in the beating death of an honor student heads for a bond hearing soon.

Let's get started.

It is one of the most divisive issues in the health care debate, and a showdown is unfolding today over the so-called public option, a government-run insurance plan. Two Democratic senators pushing to add it to the legislation before the Finance Committee.

Live to Capitol Hill and Senior Congressional Correspondent Dana Bash.

Dana, we were talking about this in e-mails over the weekend. And here's the question -- is a public option really still a viable part of this plan, or is today's fight all for show?

DANA BASH, CNN SR. CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think that the answer to that question, if you ask even the people who support a public option, and aides to some of the senators who are pushing in this committee behind me, the answer is that they do not think that they have a chance of actually passing these amendments to add a government-run option to this particular legislation that's moving through the Finance Committee.

However, talk to any Democrat here on Capitol Hill who supports that, and there certainly are a large number of Democrats who do support this approach, having a government -- a public plan, so to speak, and they say it is important to make it clear that we support it and why we support it. So, that is, in large part, what you're seeing behind me.

Now, it's very interesting. This is very much Democrat v. Democrat, but you are seeing right now Kent Conrad, who is one of the more moderate Democrats on the committee, who is likely to vote against a public plan. He's just starting to speak now, but until then we've mostly heard from Republicans speaking out against it.

And as for Democrats, some of those who support it like Jay Rockefeller, he was arguing very strongly that you can't have legislation to add money for insurance companies, basically by subsidizing people's health insurance, without having a way for the government to lower rates and provide competition.

Listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JAY ROCKEFELLER (D), WEST VIRGINIA: I think it ought to make all of us very angry, as I think it ought to make us very angry that, in the face of all of this, we're giving them over half a trillion dollars more subsidies. I don't understand that. I really don't understand that.

Who comes first, the insurance companies or the American people? I mean, it's -- maybe that's too cliche a way to put it, but I think it's a pretty fair way to put it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BASH: Now, again, aides to senators like Senator Rockefeller, Senator Chuck Schumer of New York, who are pushing and will probably spend most of the day trying to push a public option through various amendments in this committee, you know, they don't think that they will be successful. The spin we're starting to hear now is if they at least get a majority of the Democrats on this committee, that's a pretty good thing, because it is a conservative-leaning committee even with regard to Democrats.

But look, the reality moving forward in looking at this is that -- in talking to members of the Democratic leadership, at least their aides, Tony, what they say is that they ultimately, when this comes to the Senate floor, possibly in probably mid-October or so, they do not see a public option being a part of the underlying bill. And that is obviously a huge, huge rift in the Democratic Party.

HARRIS: Well, now, that's...

BASH: It has been and will be.

HARRIS: That's an interesting statement, because there is a health bill that eventually will have to be merged with whatever comes out of the Senate Finance Committee. As I recall, there is a public health option -- correct me if I'm wrong here...

BASH: Yes.

HARRIS: ... in that health bill.

BASH: Right.

HARRIS: So, my original question was going to be, might the public option come back when the two Senate bills are merged? But based on what you just said, it doesn't sound like it will be in the bill that makes it to the Senate floor.

BASH: You are going to see a big fight to try to make that happen from some of the liberal Democrats, and maybe even not-so- liberal Democrats in the Senate, to try to make sure that a public option is included in the underlying bill that they did end up debating in the Senate. However, I am told that, look, you know, the Senate majority leader and others understand that the Senate is, as we have been talking about really for months now, Tony, the Senate is, even in the Democratic ranks, more conservative than the House. And they just don't see that likely.

And then the other factor here is that they do still hope -- hope -- to get one or two Republicans on this. And they know that there is no chance they would get a Republican if it included a public option.

HARRIS: So interesting.

All right. Our senior congressional correspondent, Dana Bash.

Dana, as always, thank you.

BASH: Thanks, Tony.

HARRIS: And ahead this hour, we will talk to two senators about the health care reform debate and the battle over the public option. Interviews with Democrat Thomas Carper of Delaware. And Republican Orrin Hatch is back, Orrin Hatch of Utah, at the bottom of the hour.

In Brooklyn last hour, the terror suspect Najibullah Zazi entered a plea of not guilty. A federal judge order Zazi held without bail. The Afghan national is charged in a conspiracy to set off a homemade bomb in New York.

Zazi's attorney told reporters his client has traveled to Pakistan and purchased household products, both legal activities.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J. MICHAEL DOWNING, ZAZI'S ATTORNEY: Now, I'm not saying that I've seen all the evidence in this case produced by the government, but what I've seen so far is that Mr. Zazi traveled to Pakistan, which is not illegal, that Mr. Zazi purchased certain products that contain chemicals that allegedly could be used to make a bomb.

That -- those acts were not illegal. And I have not seen any evidence whatsoever of an agreement between Mr. Zazi and anyone else, which is the essence of a conspiracy charge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: OK. And once again, the attorney says the government has so far offered no evidence to support a conspiracy charge.

Two U.S. soldiers have died in a landmine blast in the Philippines. Officials believe al Qaeda-linked militants could be to blame. The military says the troops were part of a construction battalion heading to a resupply mission for a school building project. A Philippines marine was also killed in that blast.

President Obama reassessing the U.S. strategy in Afghanistan this week. He is meeting with the NATO secretary-general at the White House today. Yesterday, the secretary-general said if the U.S. and its allies hope to win the war, "things are going to have to change."

The top U.S. commander in Afghanistan is asking the president to commit perhaps another 40,000 troops to the war.

Pentagon Correspondent Chris Lawrence takes a look at what these men and women might face.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CHRIS LAWRENCE, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The top U.S. commander says the situation in Afghanistan is not getting better.

GENERAL STANLEY MCCHRYSTAL, U.S. COMMANDER IN AFGHANISTAN: They are probably a little worse.

LAWRENCE: What's that mean? Compared to just two years ago, the number of American troops killed by roadside bombs is up 400 percent.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Roger, we copy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Go! Never mind!

LAWRENCE: And a senior defense official tells CNN the insurgents are getting better, faster.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Found a landmine west of your location.

LAWRENCE: When U.S. forces designed a way to disrupt more sophisticated bombs, the insurgents went back to using simple devices that go undetected along the rocky unpaved roads.

SPECIALIST ADAM BRYANT, IRAQ AND AFGHANISTAN VETERANS OF AMERICA: It always single isolated attacks.

LAWRENCE: Army Reserve Specialist Adam Bryant deployed into nearly a dozen villages, remote areas with one way in and out.

BRYANT: Even in Kabul, you know, you stray from the main path and you run into an absolutely terrible dirt road.

LAWRENCE: An analyst who monitors the Afghan election says there's not enough NATO forces to cover southern and eastern Afghanistan. So, even though troops control one city:

MICHAEL O'HANLON, SENIOR FELLOW IN FOREIGN POLICY STUDIES, BROOKINGS INSTITUTION: But the next city over, the Taliban is in charge or operates without any particular constraint. And they can use that second city as a sanctuary from which to attack the first city.

LAWRENCE: Senator Lindsey Graham says it's harder to get off base when visiting Afghanistan, even under heavy protection.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You can't travel like you once could.

LAWRENCE: American troops are now operating under new orders: Protect Afghan civilians at all costs.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is that a kid? Damn it!

LAWRENCE: Even if it means holding back from a clear shot at insurgents.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: My only concern is that child right now. Once he gets away (INAUDIBLE)

LAWRENCE: General McChrystal has ordered troops out of their forward operating bases and out of their armored vehicles.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Where you from?

LAWRENCE: But mixing with Afghans and building trust means soldiers and Marines assume more risk.

BRYANT: Because the Taliban, the enemy, dresses just as the civilians do on a daily basis. They don't wear any type of uniform that you can recognize. So, the question have you to ask yourself every single day is, am I surrounded by enemies?

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: You know, a lot to talk about here, and in terms of what the U.S. needs to do in Afghanistan. But maybe the question is, what do the people who actually live there think?

Let's get to Atia Abawi. She is standing by for us, live in Kabul.

And Atia, I've got to tell you, look -- and I know that the answer to this question may differ depending on where you are in the country, but, for me, a lot of the discussion, at least at this point, feels very top-down. If you're living in one of these Afghanistan villages right now, you've got the Taliban on one side, you've got coalition troops on the other.

What's the trend line right now? You have to make a decision for your family. Who are you more likely to side with?

ATIA ABAWI, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, with the news coming out of Washington at the moment, General Stanley McChrystal sending in an assessment. Washington still deciding over it.

Some people in Congress wanting to pull out, saying that they don't want to be in the Afghan mission anymore. Joe Biden, rumors that he's saying that drone attacks are the answers.

This scares the Afghan people. They look at this, they hear this on their radios, they see this on their newscasts. They think that the coalition troops are going to leave. So, therefore, right now, although they're just surviving at the moment, they're trying to plan ahead.

If they do turn to the coalition forces right now, and they leave, they will be punished later for whoever fills that vacuum. So, right now, they're trying to decide, do I turn to the Taliban, do I turn to this warlord? Will this protect my family when the coalition forces leave?

So, this is a detriment to the international mission right now, because right now, the Afghan people, after eight years of seeing deterioration, especially in the last few years, they want a change. They want help from the international countries, but they're not seeing it. And right now, what they're seeing is a chance that they'll pull out -- Tony.

HARRIS: Well, let me follow with this. What more, then, would the coalition forces have to do to win more Afghan support?

ABAWI: Well, the big thing that the coalition forces would have to do to win Afghan support is to prove that they're here for the long run. Even though they've been here for eight years, the last few years, as I said, they've seen a deterioration.

What they want is a real commitment. They want to see these promises actually kept.

President Barack Obama made a promise to them in March that a new strategy would come, a change would come, infrastructure would come, civilian efforts would come. But right now, just a few months later, they're seeing the possibility that the coalition troops may pull out. They might not bring what they were promised.

And they're not necessarily surprised, because even back then, in March, what they told me is, we'll believe it when we see it. So, again, this is -- right now for the majority of the Afghans, it's really survival of the fittest. It's poverty.

HARRIS: Wow.

ABAWI: They're just trying to feed their families, get on day by day and see who they can trust, who's going to actually really help them and stay the long run -- Tony.

HARRIS: CNN's Atia Abawi for us in Kabul, Afghanistan.

Boy, what a perspective. Atia, appreciate it. Thank you.

Kicked, punched, beaten with two-by-fours. We've shown you the video of a Chicago teen's brutal death. Now police say they've found the other teens on that tape.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: One of four suspects will be at a bond hearing this afternoon for the beating death of another teen caught on tape. Utterly brutal is really the only way to describe it. But as Joe Johns explains, it is part of a bigger picture of violence.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JOE JOHNS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Simply sickening is about the only way to describe it, pictures taken on a cell phone of a kid pounding another kid with a wooden board. That teenager who just got hit is 16-year-old Derrion Albert, and he's dead now.

After the awful pictures, the hardest thing of all is to see the parents.

(on camera): Could you tell me, your son, about him, who he was? What kind of person? What kind of student?

ANJANETTE ALBERT, DERRION ALBERT'S MOTHER: He was an honor student. Loved school.

JOHNS: Good boy?

ALBERT: Yes. Never a problem.

JOHNS: Not a gang-banger?

ALBERT: No.

JOHNS (voice-over): So who was Derrion Albert? A junior, an honor roll student here at Fenger High School in Chicago's South Side. Friends say he was headed to college. Not a gang-banger.

So why did he die?

Police are still looking for the answer. But what we do know is that students who aren't involved in the street life here still can get caught in the middle of it.

(voice-over): Four teenagers are charged with first-degree murder. Among them, one former student and two current students at Fenger High School.

Police say Derrion Albert was on his way home from school and walked into a street fight but police are not jumping to any conclusions.

COMMANDER EDDIE WELCH, CHICAGO POLICE DEPARTMENT: Right now we're not saying that this is a gang-related incident. Right now this appears that you have a young man that's making an attempt to go home.

JOHNS: Friends of Derrion said he was trying to help a friend and got the worst of it.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Him trying to help out his friend, it's just like he was at the wrong place at the wrong time.

JOHNS (on camera): We started looking at the deadly violence here in 2007. Twenty-eight Chicago public school students had already been killed. And parents were looking for answers. Last year, that number jumped to 37.

(voice-over): Thirty-seven in one year. That made it the deadliest place in America for school kids.

Annette Nance's son, Blair Holt (ph), was killed in 2007.

ANNETTE NANCE, SON KILLED IN 2007: Someone said he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. No, he wasn't. He was in the right place. He was coming from school. Let's stop saying these things.

JOHNS: The school year has just started. And as a result of Derrion's death, there will be more security. And throughout Chicago, more parents will be asking just what they have to do to keep their kids safe.

Joe Johns, CNN, Chicago

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: Let's talk about health reform and how it impacts you. We've been examining what the different plans mean for you and your family. Today we're talking about the proposal by Senate Finance Committee Chairman Max Baucus.

Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is back with another example.

I am loving this. What do you have for us this time?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Because real people.

HARRIS: Yes.

COHEN: We're talking about what the Baucus bill means to real people. If you're a real person who doesn't get insurance through their employer and has a pre-existing condition, do you know what kind of situation you're in?

HARRIS: Oh yes. This is tough.

COHEN: Big and bad. Big and bad. This is bad.

If you don't get insurance through your employer and you have a pre-existing condition, guess what? Insurance companies aren't really interested in insuring you, because you're going to be expensive.

So, we'd like to introduce you to Heart Attack Harry. Harry has recently had a heart attack. The sad face is because, well, he had a heart attack. But also because the insurance companies won't insure him. He knows that in the next year, he is going to need lots of surgeries totaling hundreds of thousands of dollars.

So, coming up, we will talk about, what will the Baucus bill do for Heart Attack Harry?

HARRIS: That's good stuff. All right, Elizabeth. See you in just a couple of minutes.

COHEN: That's right.

HARRIS: Thank you.

Let's get you caught up now on some of our top stories.

A contentious day on Capitol Hill. Liberal and moderate Democrats are clashing over whether to include a public option in the Senate's health care plan.

President Obama is meeting with NATO's secretary-general right now at the White House to discuss strategy in Afghanistan. Yesterday, the secretary-general said if the U.S. and its allies hope to win the war "things are going to have to change."

The U.S. hoping to force Iran to listen by imposing new sanctions. Specifically on energy, finance, and telecommunications, according to The Associated Press. This, after Iran carried out several missile tests over the past few days and revealed a second uranium enrichment plant.

Another check of our top stories coming your way in about 20 minutes.

If you own stocks, you probably have a vivid memory of what happened to the market one year ago today. How far have we really come since that financial nightmare?

We're back in a moment.

(STOCK MARKET REPORT)

(BUSINESS REPORT)

HARRIS: President Obama, as we told you, meeting with NATO Secretary-General Rasmussen, and now the two men are meeting with reporters.

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Hello, everybody.

I just want to Secretary-General Rasmussen to the Oval Office. He and I had the opportunity to get to know each other at the NATO Summit in Strasbourg, at which he was nominated and then selected as the new secretary-general of NATO.

I can say that given his experience as a head of state, that everybody had confidence in his decisive and effective leadership abilities. That confidence has proven justified in the brief time that he has been in NATO. I think he's already shown himself to be an active and effective secretary-general, interested in reforming and renewing the NATO alliance, and always rooted in the understanding that this is the most successful military alliance in history and the cornerstone of transatlantic relationships.

We had a very fruitful discussion while he was here. We talked about obviously the most important NATO mission right now, and that is Afghanistan. And we both agree that it is absolutely critical that we are successful in dismantling, disrupting, destroying the al Qaeda network, and that we are effectively working with the Afghan government to provide the security necessary for that country.

This is not an American battle. This is a NATO mission as well, and we are working actively and diligently to consult with NATO at every step of the way. And I'm very grateful for the leadership that Secretary-General Rasmussen has shown in committing NATO to a full partnership in this process.

We also discussed missile defense, and we both agreed that the configuration that we have proposed is one that ultimately will serve the interests of not only the United States, but also NATO alliance members most effectively. It allows for a full collaboration with NATO members, and we are very optimistic that it will achieve our aims and deal with the very real threat of ballistic missiles.

We also agreed that it is important for us to reach out to Russia and explore ways in which the missile defense configurations that we envision could potentially lead to further collaboration with Russia on this front, and that we want to improve generally, not only U.S./Russian relations, but also NATO/Russian relations, while making absolutely clear that our commitments to all of our allies in NATO is sacrosanct and that our commitment to Article V continues.

Finally, we discussed the process that we're putting forward for a strategic concept review. NATO has been so successful, that sometimes I think that we forget this was shaped and crafted for a 20th century landscape. We're now well into the 21st century, and that means that we are going to have to constantly renew and revitalize NATO to meet current threats and not just past threats.

There has been a process that has been put forward. We are fully supportive of it. I am confident that under Secretary-General Rasmussen's leadership, that it will ultimately be successful and that we will continue to see NATO operate in a way that is good for U.S. national security interests, good for allies, and good for the world.

So, Mr. Secretary-General, thank you for the excellent work that you're doing. And we appreciate it very much. And, please, feel free to share a few words.

ANDERS FOGH RASMUSSEN, NATO SECRETARY-GENERAL: Thank you very much, Mr. President, for your kind words.

The president and I have had a very constructive meeting. I have thanked the president for his strong support. I look very much forward to cooperating with the president and his administration on reforming, transforming, and modernizing NATO. We're going to elaborate a new strategic concept, which I hope can serve as a leverage for renewal of NATO. Of course, our main focus today has been our operation in Afghanistan. I say "our focus" deliberately because our operation in Afghanistan is not America's responsibility or burden alone. It is, and it will remain, a team effort.

I agree with President Obama in his approach. Strategy first, then resources. The first thing is not numbers. It is to find and fine-tune the right approach to implement the strategy already laid down. And all NATO allies are right now looking at McChrystal's review.

I'm convinced that success in Afghanistan is achievable and will be achieved. And don't make any mistake. The normal discussion on the right approach should not be misinterpreted as lack of resolve. This alliance will stand united, and we will stay in Afghanistan as long as it takes to finish our job.

As the president mentioned, we have also discussed missile defense. I welcome the new U.S. approach, which will allow all allies to participate, which will protect all allies. And, in fact, I think, the proposed new system can serve as an instrument to bind all allies, new and old, even stronger together.

Thank you.

OBAMA: Thank you so much.

All right. Thank you, everybody.

HARRIS: All right, President Obama and NATO Secretary Rasmussen, continuing their talks in Afghanistan. And what the secretary-general called the team approach, focusing first on strategy and then on resources. But you heard the secretary-general say there near the end, "we will stay in Afghanistan as long as it takes to finish the job." What's the job? That's being discussed this week.

Let's take a quick break. Next I'm going to find out where the Senate's health reform plan is headed from two members of the Senate Finance Committee. Is the public option still on the table? We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: The debate over a public option in health care reform is taking center stage on Capitol Hill today and we are talking with senators from the Senate Finance Committee, where the showdown is taking place. With us right now from The Hill, a pleasure to welcome back Democratic Senator Thomas Carper of Delaware.

Senator, good to see you again.

SEN. THOMAS CARPER, (D) DELAWARE: Nice to see you.

HARRIS: You know, I just asked our producers a moment ago if we've had any fireworks in the debate this morning, and so far we haven't had any. And maybe that's a really good thing. So, we're talking today about the public option. Really a government-run insurance plan. Let's get right to a bit of a reality check with you here, senator. Democrats are really fighting a losing battle on the public option. This committee is too conservative to pass a bill with a public option. Where am I wrong here?

CARPER: You know, I think at the end of the day, we'll report out a bill, maybe by the end of this week, that has one way to ensure that there's competition in states where there's not much competition for health insurance. We'll make sure that there's some help on affordability. I don't believe that we're going to include a provision beyond cooperatives in the bill that comes out of our committee.

Senator Rockefeller will opt for sort of a pure public option approach. Senator Schumer will offer something closer to, if you will, to a cooperative. But I don't believe any of those changes will be adopted this week.

What's going to happen is, you know, the process going forward will have a bill coming out of the Senate Finance Committee. A little bit different from a bill coming out of the Health Committee. That has a pure public option.

HARRIS: Yes.

CARPER: And the idea would be to merge the two on the floor. And I think out of that will -- out of that merger process between the two committee bills will come something -- maybe a hybrid. Maybe -- at least we need something to make sure we keep the insurance companies honest, we need to make sure we have competition and promote affordability. We'll find that. I don't know if it will be a fallback public option or a trigger public option. Something like Senator Snowe was suggesting. That will be, I think, the final product.

HARRIS: And that's where I'm sort of driving here. I know I'm jumping ahead here a bit to what the final Senate bill might look like after the merging with the health committee bill that you just mentioned. Senator Olympia Snowe has proposed a bill with a public option trigger. Do you think that's where we're headed here?

CARPER: Well, I think in the end we'll have some kind of trigger. The mechanisms -- the forces that will trigger a -- some kind of fallback option would be lack of competition. You have a state or series of states where there's no real competition. One or maybe a handful of insurance companies basically control the whole market. Prices aren't very good. In those cases, I think the states will have the opportunity to really kind of opt in.

And they could have cooperatives. They could have cooperatives maybe formed under the tutelage of, say, Mayo Clinic or Cleveland Clinic. They could have -- they could open up their state public health program for the public employees and pensioners.

Or they could have -- the state would have the right to create within a state their own state option, which would provide competition for the insurance companies. We could have all of those. But there will be -- there will be one mechanism or several mechanisms to provide competition, to make sure that that's present where there is none.

HARRIS: Let me paint a scenario. Our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, just created a scenario and we tried to apply the language in the bill now to this family's particular scenario. This is a family of four. Self-employed. With its own business. Making about $44,000 a year.

Right now, because they don't have insurance, they're having to go out on the market and buy it and it's costing them about a third of their income, about $15,000. What's going on right now? What will be in the bill that will make insurance for that family more affordable?

CARPER: We're going to create large purchasing pools. We'll probably do it on a state-by-state basis. We call them exchanges. Federal employees, our dependent (ph) (INAUDIBLE) retirees, they're dependents are part of an 8 million person purchasing pool. We don't get cheap insurance, but we get decent prices. A lot of competition among private insurance companies. Our administrative costs are only 3 percent of our premium costs. It really drives down the cost of health insurance for the eight million people who anticipate in that.

We're going to create a whole series of exchanges like that modeled after the Federal Employee Benefit Plan, a large purchasing pool, to give the people the benefit of the competition and the very low administrative costs. And we'll have the opportunity for states, 50 exchanges in 50 states, the ability to create what we call partnerships between the different states. They'll -- and they can create regional exchanges. We see a lot of that. And that will help a lot of people get health insurance far more cheaply.

HARRIS: Senator, we'll let you get back to your work. Thanks for the update. We really appreciate it. Thanks.

CARPER: It's my pleasure, Tony. Thank you.

HARRIS: All right. Let's get you call up on some of our top stories.

The president met with NATO's secretary-general at the White House just a few minutes ago. He said they both agreed the U.S. and its allies have to come up with a way to dismantle and destroy al Qaeda networks in Afghanistan. NATO secretary-general said the president is right to decide strategy first and then resources.

In Brooklyn, a 24-year-old Afghan man pleaded not guilty today to terror conspiracy charges. A federal judge ordered Najibullah Zazi held without bail. Prosecutors say Zazi wanted to build a homemade bomb with household products to attack New York mass transit.

Former Governor Sarah Palin's memoir will be in bookstores a half year ahead of schedule. HarperCollins will release "Going Rogue: An American Life" November 17th. One and a half million copies will be printed. That's on par with the late Senator Edward Kennedy's memoir.

You've heard of what -- you've heard what one of the key senators, Senate Democrats, have to say. Next, I will get some thoughts from Republican Senator Orrin Hatch. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: We are following the debate playing out on Capitol Hill over the so-called public option in health care reform. Just moments ago we spoke with Democratic Senator Thomas Carper of Delaware. With us right now, Republican Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah.

Senator Hatch, good to see you on the program again.

SEN. ORRIN HATCH, (R) UTAH: Always nice to be with you, Tony.

HARRIS: Well, let's cut through the -- let's cut through it, all right?

HATCH: OK.

HARRIS: This committee isn't going to pass out a bill with a public option, isn't that the simple, straightforward truth on the matter? No public option in the Finance Committee bill?

HATCH: Not really. Watch them try and do that co-op approach, it will be basically the same thing. They'll say that it will be independent. That it will be a non-profit and so forth, but it will be along the same lines. But the public option that Senator Rockefeller brought up this morning, I actually believe there aren't the votes on the committee to do that. And thank goodness for that.

HARRIS: OK. So is your real concern -- I've been trying to listen very closely to you.

HATCH: OK.

HARRIS: Is your real concern that when the finance bill, which is not likely to include the kind of public option that the Democrats are proposing, is merged with the health bill, which includes the public option, that at that point the bill will be unsupportable by you. It will be a bill that, in your words here last week, will be the most God-awful thing you've ever seen?

HATCH: Well, I think that's a fair appraisal of it. The fact of the matter is, is that the health committee bill -- I'm on that committee -- it was a totally partisan bill. Almost every vote was 13-10, you know, party-line vote. And, frankly, the three bills in the House are all party-line Democrat bills. So, yes, very little likelihood that if we do anything good in the Finance Committee, that it's going to last through the -- through the modifications that are going to be brought by the melding with the Health Committee and then ultimately with the three committee bills. It will have to be put into one over in the House.

HARRIS: Well, well, wait a minute. Senator, are you saying to me that you still believe that Senate Democrats will find a way to work on the public option into the final Senate bill?

HATCH: Well, I think they're going to try and do that. And certainly because the House leadership certainly wants it. But I think they also have to realize there are a lot of Democrats who weren't for that, who are terribly afraid of it. Because if you go to a public option, that means that we're going to really turn over our whole health care system to Washington, D.C.

HARRIS: Yes.

HATCH: And most people out there just don't want that to happen. They know that if you turn it over to the bureaucrats here in Washington, D.C., that this place is going to determine everything that happens in health care, and that means you'll have bureaucrats placed between you and your doctor, your hospital, and so forth.

I mean, just look at Medicare and Medicaid. Medicare now pays doctors 20 percent less. Hospitals 30 percent less. They were supposed to be, you know, on an equal basis with the private sector. Well, they're not. Medicaid itself pays doctors 35 percent less and hospitals 40 percent less.

HARRIS: But isn't that really a state function? I mean, come on, the states really set those prices. And the states, you know, what you're suggesting here, should do a better job and then the government plays its role, which is to match, correct?

HATCH: What I'm suggesting is that these folks on the Democrats' side are using Medicare and Medicaid as the piggyback. They're going to take $500 billion out of Medicare in order to try and pay for this thing.

HARRIS: Right.

HATCH: And Medicare's already $38 trillion in unfunded liability, and Medicaid's going to go broke in the next few years. So, you know, they just don't seem to realize that the people out there aren't for having Washington, D.C., run all of our lives in health care.

HARRIS: Right.

HATCH: And that's what they're trying to do. And if they get away with it, we're going to be paying through the nose the rest of our lives and we'll go straight to what is called a single-payer system. And what they're doing is they're trying to do this in increments by -- if they can't do it directly, they'll do it in increments until they finally get us to the point where you're going to have socialized medicine. And if that happens, the greatest country in the world with what I consider to be the greatest health care system in the world is going to be deeply, deeply harmed.

HARRIS: All right. And let's leave it there. Senator, we're going to let you get back to your work. We appreciate your time. And come see us again.

HATCH: I will. Nice talking to you. HARRIS: Good to talk to you. Senator Orrin Hatch of Utah.

How will a Senate health plan affect Harry the heart patient? Remember Harry the heart patient? Our Elizabeth Cohen will be back with that in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Health care reform and what it means for you. Senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen back with us. And earlier she introduced us to heart patient Harry?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Heart attack Harry. He's not just a heart patient, he actually had a heart attack.

HARRIS: All right. So, if you would, will you explain to us how the reform plan from the Senate Finance Committee, the chairman, Max Baucus, would impact heart attack Harry?

COHEN: All right, let's talk about heart attack Harry's situation right now, Tony. He had a heart attack recently, so when he went out looking for insurance, guess what the insurance companies told him? Can you guess?

HARRIS: Yes. No. No, what, are you kidding me?

COHEN: No. They said, are you joking? You just had a heart attack. You're going to cost us a lot of money. We're not going to insure you.

All right. So then we took a look at the Baucus bill and what we saw is that insurance companies would have to take him. They have to take him and other people with pre-existing conditions. That is a huge change from what we have now. As you know, now, Tony, millions of people are in this situation where they don't get insurance through their employer, they have a pre-existing condition, and they can't get insurance or else they get -- or they get charged an arm and a leg for it and they can't pay for it.

HARRIS: And what we see a lot -- and we've talked about this -- is young people who at some point are no longer covered by their parents' policy, who then have to go out on the open market and try to find insurance. And if they have pre-existing conditions, I mean, the premium rates are just ridiculous for people.

COHEN: Oh, it is ridiculous. I mean as you can tell, Harry, he's bald. So he's kind of old. But -- no, sorry, I shouldn't have said that, Tony. Sorry. You don't have to be old. Anyone with a pre- existing condition really is vulnerable.

Now, here's another issue, Tony. Another issue is that he, even with insurance, OK, under the Baucus bill, he's going to get insurance. This guy makes $60,000 a year.

HARRIS: Yes. COHEN: He is still going to have to pay some money for his heart surgeries that are coming up. But what the Baucus bill does is it limits it. It says, all right, Harry, you will only have to spend $6,300 out of pocket for your surgeries. Now some people would say, you know, Harry is going to be out of work for weeks or maybe even months because of his illness and he's going to have to pay more than 10 percent of his salary for -- to pay for these surgeries? Some people would say that is still a lot. Other people would say, Harry's just lucky to have insurance at all.

HARRIS: Yes. And without -- exactly. And without this coverage and these additional surgeries, that's when we get that scenario where folks end up going bankrupt because they just can't -- they just can't pay the bills.

COHEN: Right. And people go into medical bankruptcy every day in this country.

HARRIS: Yes.

COHEN: Because he's making $60,000. He's too rich to go on Medicaid. He's not old enough for Medicare. This is a very difficult situation.

HARRIS: That's -- good stuff today, Elizabeth. That really helps. Thanks you.

COHEN: Thank you.

HARRIS: What if you could hold all the resources of CNN's news- gathering operation in your hand? We will show you how to make that happen.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: CNN connects you to your world. And starting today, you can carry the NEWSROOM right in your pocket. We have an app for that. Our Internet correspondent, Abbi Tatton, walks us through the new CNN application for iPhone.

ABBI TATTON, CNN INTERNET CORRESPONDENT: Tony, one of the best aspects of this new iPhone app from CNN is the live streaming video. This means you can watch cnn.com live wherever you go, on your iPhone. In addition to that, you're going to be able to see live news events, breaking news. If there's an event going on that's streaming live on cnn.com, you're going to be able to carry it around with you.

That's just one of the four different aspects of this new iPhone app that we are launching today. The video is one of them. The i- Report segment is another one. This allows you to submit your content to us at CNN. Then you've got the headline sections of this as well that lets you choose exactly what you want to read, what you want to follow.

And then one other thing I really want to point out to you is this aspect here, mycnn. This allows you to choose the stories that you're most interested in. Every time CNN comes out with a story about one of those topics, you're going to get the update. You're going to be able to see it right there on your iPhone.

Then, of course, you're going to be able to localize it. The iPhone has a GPS. We know where you're going to be. You're going to be able to get weather updates, traffic updates, all your local news as well directly to your iPhone.

We are launching this today. It's available at the app store. $1.99. We think it's a bit of a bargain.

Tony.

HARRIS: Abbi, appreciate it.

We are pushing forward now with the next hour of CNN NEWSROOM with Kyra Phillips.