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Joy Behar Page
Life on the D List; Best Bette; Beauty and Brains
Aired October 02, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
JOY BEHAR, HLN ANCHOR: Tonight Bette Midler, Kathy Griffin and Vanessa Williams. I`ve got more stars in here than the Betty Ford Clinic; all that and more from the Time Warner Center in New York tonight.
You never know what my guest is going the say or for that matter say about you behind your back. Her brand of comedy is brash, outspoken and takes no prisoners. And in fact, I am wearing body armor right now.
So please help me welcome to my table. Kathy Griffin.
KATHY GRIFFIN, COMEDIAN: I love that intro and here`s why, because I love that you pointed out that I talk about people behind their backs.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: And here`s why. I think it`s interesting when people want me to confront these celebrities. And the truth is I was raised right. I talk about people behind their backs. And I wait until you leave the room.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: So when people say that on reality shows, if you have something to say, say it to my face.
BEHAR: No.
GRIFFIN: I would say, I`d rather wait until you leave the room.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Because I can be funnier and that`s more freeing for me.
BEHAR: I understand that...
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Except that sometimes you get into trouble.
GRIFFIN: Yes always.
BEHAR: Ok, you`ve said things that I have down here. Suck it, Jesus.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: For example, you said that at the end...
GRIFFIN: Right, when I won my first Emmy.
BEHAR: Why were you interested in just offending every Christian in the world?
GRIFFIN: Well, I like to offend really just groups probably more than individuals, I mean, I like to offend individuals -- don`t get me wrong. But I find that deities and religious groups are the most fun, because they have the worst sense of humor.
And so when I told Jesus to suck it, which was me doing a spoof of when all these -- usually at the Grammy`s -- all these musical artists go up there and they thank God. Miley just did it...
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: ...after dancing on the pole. You know what I mean?
BEHAR: I know.
GRIFFIN: Ok.
BEHAR: It`s not pretty but it`s silly.
GRIFFIN: Yes and so I said Jesus had nothing to do with the award, suck it Jesus this award is my God now. And then the -- an angry Christian group took out a huge ad against me in "USA Today"...
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: ...and spent more money than Bravo ever would, advertising my "Life on D List. And so it was a great publicity for me.
BEHAR: Do you get death threats? Do you get like...
GRIFFIN: Yes, I`ve had death threats.
BEHAR: And how do you handle that? Because that`s a little scary?
GRIFFIN: Yes, well, I just -- I kind of just laugh at all of it.
BEHAR: You do.
GRIFFIN: Maybe -- no, that`s probably why I am not a security expert like I would not be a good homeland security person.
BEHAR: No.
GRIFFIN: Because I would say just -- oh just laugh at those Jihadists. They are a riot.
BEHAR: Yes. I have two names for -- one name for you.
GRIFFIN: What is it?
BEHAR: Selman Rusty (ph), remember (INAUDIBLE)
GRIFFIN: He was on my life on the dealers, I got tips from him? He was one of my guests...
BEHAR: On how to avoid Jihadist?
GRIFFIN: How to deal with a fatwa (ph) -- because I have kind of a Hollywood fatwa in my head at all times.
BEHAR: Yes, you can have every move now...
GRIFFIN: Mostly perpetrated by Barbara Walters.
BEHAR: Let`s leave her out of this conversation.
GRIFFIN: Do we have to?
BEHAR: No, because this -- yes, you could because there`s other people -- Regis for example, you haven`t been invited back.
GRIFFIN: You`re the one that called him.
(CROSS TALK)
GRIFFIN: It`s in my book. Did you know you are in my book?
BEHAR: I heard about that.
GRIFFIN: You are in my book...
BEHAR: I skipped that section...
GRIFFIN: You have to look -- my book has an index where you can actually look yourself up and you can see what page you are on there by having to not read the whole book at all.
BEHAR: Ok so what did I do for you?
GRIFFIN: Ok, what happened was I was on "The View" one time in the make-up room.
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: And you said to me out of the blue, you said, have you been on Regis lately and I said no. And you said, you mean because you said on the "Regis Live" that Gillman (ph) was Regis`s (BLEEP).
And I said, oh "oh yes" and then I said "wait a minute I haven`t been on the show." And then you were laughing and you said "but that`s why?" And in fact, I have not been on Regis and Kelly Lee -- let`s go with Regis and Kelly Lee. Because that`s how long it`s been since I`ve been on the show that I believe I have a fatwa from Gillman.
BEHAR: You might have a fatwa from Gillman.
GRIFFIN: And I didn`t know Gillman could put a fatwa on someone`s head.
BEHAR: Sure, he doesn`t want to be known as Regis`s (BLEEP).
GRIFFIN: That`s funny.
BEHAR: It is funny but you know as you said, maybe some people don`t have the sense of humor that you have.
GRIFFIN: Right.
BEHAR: So you have to watch that.
GRIFFIN: You don`t think that Regis beats Gillman ever?
BEHAR: He beats him verbally...
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: He abuses him verbally. Regis is the boss.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Let`s face it.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: And then when -- but when you do get into trouble like that, you will not apologize? Am I right?
GRIFFIN: No, I don`t apologize for jokes. I apologize for if I stepped on your toe.
BEHAR: You mean literally or figurative?
GRIFFIN: No literally because if...
BEHAR: Literally...
GRIFFIN: I have apologized for many, many things. But I don`t apologize for jokes so like saying suck it Jesus at the Creative Arts Emmys is so clearly a joke or starting a rumor that Dakota Fanning is going to rehab when she`s nine years old, it`s very clearly a joke.
BEHAR: That`s funny.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: They went after you for that, that`s ridiculous.
GRIFFIN: Yes, but also if I would have said it about Lindsay Lohan, then I could understand if people weren`t sure if I was kidding.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: But to say it about nine-year-old Dakota Fanning is like very obviously a joke.
BEHAR: Right. Now, what about the facts that David Letterman he apologized to Sarah Palin for the Bristol joke. Do you think he should have or not? Because that was a joke.
GRIFFIN: Well, that was interesting because in my book I talked about being banned from Letterman. And then as I was writing the book, my 12- year ban was lifted.
BEHAR: Why? Why were you banned from Letterman?
GRIFFIN: I think because I swore too much. I don`t know for sure. You know the way banning has worked with these shows is they never want to come out and say you`re banned. They usually just like want to just keep not booking you, year after year.
BEHAR: Of course, they don`t want to admit it.
GRIFFIN: After winning Emmys and after going to Iraq...
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: And after doing this and then they can`t find a spot for me but they can have Spencer from Heidi and Spencer, they can find a spot for him. But -- so then on Letterman I was a fallout.
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: Because when you`re on the D-list, that`s what you do. Which means the show has booked a real star, big and a head cold, Paula Abdul, head cold and then, they call me and I just rush over there in a couple of hours and fill in.
So that`s how I got to go back on Letterman as default I was a fallout.
BEHAR: Now, what does this mean head cold, when you do it like that?
GRIFFIN: It seems to me...
BEHAR: What do you really want to say?
GRIFFIN: I would say that Paula Abdul appears to be under the influence of really enjoying life.
BEHAR: She says that she has pain medication or something I believe something simple like that.
GRIFFIN: I believe her, if she is saying she has pain medication, I`m agreeing with her.
BEHAR: But you know I`ve loved her on "American Idol" just to -- I thought she was good on that show.
GRIFFIN: I love her, first of all, I don`t think it`s -- I think it`s a big mistake to not having her back.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: And considering what they pay those boys and in the book I actually talk a lot about sexism in Hollywood.
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: And you obviously know that game.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: I mean, I`m sorry but I think it`s appalling that Seacrest makes $45 million and I think Paula made $3 million. And obviously, $3 million is an amazing living but so she gets a tenth of what the guys get? A 12th of what the guys get?
BEHAR: Well, I think that he was getting $45 million for various jobs.
GRIFFIN: For various jobs.
BEHAR: It wasn`t just the one thing but still...
GRIFFIN: But still...
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: She is a big reason people watch that show and she definitely was one of the big reasons I watched it.
BEHAR: Me too because...
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: ...you need somebody nice...
GRIFFIN: ...and you`d never know what she`s going to do...
BEHAR: ...and that somebody who would maybe come on to the kids. It was great.
GRIFFI: And she might not be able to hold her head up.
BEHAR: So now you`re talking about sexism in Hollywood.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: Why in Hollywood? It is all over the place.
GRIFFIN: Well, in standup comedy, I can`t believe how bad it still is. Meaning, when I was a kid and Joan Rivers took over "The Tonight Show," I really thought ok this it...
BEHAR: Me too.
GRIFFIN: Here we go it`s going to be 50/50. And that there isn`t a female in network late night to this day; in fact that there was one, Joan Rivers and then never again...
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: ...is mind-blowing to me.
BEHAR: Yes, after she had her own show and she didn`t tell Johnny Carson she was getting her own show, the patriarch was upset. She was banned from those shows also. She was only recently invited back I think on Letterman maybe once or two over the last 20 years. So she was banned also is that a female thing that they ban women?
GRIFFIN: It`s a female thing.
BEHAR: Only women?
GRIFFIN: As far as having those shows, I believe it is a woman thing. Even the clubs.
The banning, I don`t know about the banning part. I think a lot of these guys in late night don`t necessarily know what to do with a woman. If you are not the hot chick I`m not sure if they know quite what to do with you.
If you are not the starlet coming on and you`re short dressing -- our TV show is like a family. One time we played this joke where we switched cola for coffee.
BEHAR: They love that.
GRIFFIN: They love that stuff.
BEHAR: But with a woman comedian, I guess it is too much power that we have.
We have the mike, we`re funny. It`s not easy to deal with.
GRIFFIN: There is that whole thing too. If you have people that -- genuinely think chicks are funny. When I do my shows -- like you I perform for a lot gay guys, a lot of women.
And I can tell you how many guys come out to me and say my wife kind of dragged me here and I didn`t want to come but you are really funny.
BEHAR: do you think there is less sexism among women? Is there camaraderie amongst the women comedians?
GRIFFIN: Sometimes yes, sometimes no. You know what there`s a few of us vying for a few jobs, let`s face it, we`re all fighting for a handful of jobs.
So sometimes girl on girl crime can be the worst. I think ultimately, luckily I have been lucky enough to have a lot of girls help me along the way.
When I started out, the first week I even did stand up, which was in a coffee house, Janine Garofalo (ph) and Margaret, Cher was there...
BEHAR: They`re feminists the two of them.
They are both feminists.
GRIFFIN: They`re feminists.
BEHAR: So they`re going to be good for you.
GRIFFIN: Exactly. They were very helpful. But I love all the gals. I love Chelsea (INAUDIBLE), I love Sandra Bernhardt, and I love Joan Rivers.
BEHAR: What about Ellen DeGeneres?
GRIFFIN: I love her.
BEHAR: You were a little nasty in the book against her.
GRIFFIN: I told stories about her, that was my experience when I was on her show.
BEHAR: What happened to you.
GRIFFIN: I just thought she really kind of ruled that set with an iron fist in a way that was a little like -- it took me back a little built.
BEHAR: If she were a man you wouldn`t be saying that. You`d say she was very strong and tough.
GRIFFIN: Well, I thought she was -- what she did is I felt like she had me perform like a circus monkey which normally I am happy to do.
(CROSS TALK)
GRIFFIN: I do have little cymbals attached to my fingers at times. I`m a big admirer of her and all that she has accomplished. Although I think I am currently banned from her show. I think there`s a current banning happening here.
I have not been on in like three years.
BEHAR: They`re going to lift it. You do just fine. You are not on the D list anymore so that`s going to count. You are an A-list person and to be on the D-list person it sounds wrong.
GRIFFIN: I think you`re just saying that because you have to because I`m sitting across from you.
BEHAR: No it`s true. I mean, I see you everywhere.
You have a huge gay following.
GRIFFIN: Thank God for gays.
BEHAR: What do you think that is about?
GRIFFIN: Kind of like you. It seems like I just get along with gay guys. I didn`t really have to put any effort into it.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: I remember in the early days when I first saw that the gay audience was easier to deal with. They were downtown below 14th street and they got...
(CROSS TALK)
GRIFFIN: It`s like geography for you?
BEHAR: It was. When I went uptown, and became more hetero and it got harder to do because then you had to deal with guys.
GRIFFIN: I found that -- I call them the unchuckable gays because they are already in a minority that has to struggle and they already feel like sometimes being on the outside looking in and that is what the D List is.
So I think that is why I do well with gay audiences and love gay audiences. And for me, the kind of stand up I do -- what am I going to say to a gay person that they haven`t heard. There`s nothing I can say. I don`t get a lot of gasps unless I mention going to Cher`s house. And they get excited.
BEHAR: But somebody once said to me, Joy they don`t really admire you they want to be you? What does that mean?
GRIFFIN: And vice versa. There are a lot of gay guys I would love to be. I think my life would be a lot easier if I was just a hot gay guy.
BEHAR: Who do you think has a bigger fan base? You, Cher, or Larry Craig?
GRIFFIN: Larry Craig. He has more of a niche crowd but they are passionate.
BEHAR: When we come back, we`re going to have more with Kathy -- with Kathy Griffin.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: Hi, I am Kathy Griffin. And I`m going to on Christiane -- I think we are live from Baghdad. We are going be at a desk. There is going to be a lot of IEDs. We`re going to gossip. And we`re going to talk and smack about celebrities.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We are back with the very funny Kathy Griffin -- I do remember your name.
You know a lot of things in your book are serious.
GRIFFIN: Oh yes. This book hits you with a few serious topics that maybe you didn`t expect.
BEHAR: I did not expect to find out that your brother was a pedophile. Tell me, what do you mean?
GRIFFIN: All right. Here`s the deal. You know, I am writing a memoir. And I think that if people are going put down their hard earned money then they should get something they can`t see on the D List or don`t see if they come see me live or whatever.
And so I had to write about the serious stuff too. And I was torn; part of me wanted to make it just a humor book. And I thought the type of books that I really like are the ones that are honest and forthright.
In fact, Barbara Walters` "Audition" was one of them. I thought that was a great book.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: Right. She was very honest.
GRIFFIN: And she was very honest in revealing; and Joan Rivers` "Enter Talking" and Paula Dean`s first book and all about the cooking. Those are the type of books I like to read so I had to talk about my eldest brother, Kenny, who has now passed away. He was a pedophile.
BEHAR: How did he die?
GRIFFIN: He actually -- so awful. He was homeless and he was a crack addict and lived on the streets for years and he actually died in my mom`s arms.
BEHAR: Sad.
GRIFFIN: Very, very sad; and lived to be, I think, 60 years old.
BEHAR: So when you`re saying he was a pedophile, did he molest children?
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: He did?
GRIFFIN: That`s what a pedophile is.
BEHAR: Yes. You don`t say that exactly in your book.
GRIFFIN: Well, that`s what I mean. It is a serious thing.
BEHAR: You say he got into bed with you when you were a little girl.
GRIFFIN: Yes. I mean -- here`s the deal. When I was a little kid like under ten years old and this guy was 20 years older than I. He would get into bed with me and whisper sweet nothings in my ear.
BEHAR: Did he touch you?
GRIFFIN: Not that I recall. If you walked into a bedroom and you saw a 7- year-old kid and there was a guy 20 years older than her in bed, cuddling with her, whispering sweet nothings in her ear...
BEHAR: It`s creepy.
GRIFFIN: It`s creepy. Exactly.
BEHAR: I don`t know that he molested you.
GRIFFIN: No, no. I don`t what the word is, by the way, and I`ve never used that word for me. I always say sexually inappropriate because I don`t really know what to call it and different people can call it whatever they want.
I have talked to various experts about this topic. And one thing they have talked to me a lot about is the denial often that comes along with that crime.
Also remember, I am 48. We are talking 40 years ago. We almost didn`t have the word pedophile then, you know.
BEHAR: No. That was before Oprah and Phil.
GRIFFIN: Right. Exactly. And then later on in two of his long-term relationships, both of those women separately told me about him molesting kids...
BEHAR: Oh, I see.
GRIFFIN: And then many years later, I became estranged from him and it was a very divisive thing in my family. And my dad said why are you completely estranged from Kenny and I said, "Well, dad. I believe he is a pedophile. And that`s why."
My dad finally confronted him later on in his life and said, "Kathleen thinks you`re a pedophile." And my dad response was -- I`m sorry -- my brother`s response to my dad (SIC) was, "I do what I do."
BEHAR: Oh. So he admitted it pretty much.
GRIFFIN: Look if someone accused me of being a pedophile, my answer would not be "I do what I do."
BEHAR: Right.
GRIFFIN: It`s a very sort of amorphous thing. It`s a crime, to me, often that does not have the witnesses come forward. I actually called the LAPD on him one time and tried to get them to investigate. They told me that they couldn`t because they needed the kids to come forward.
I had the address of the apartment that he was managing. I tried to get them to go ask. It is a big thing to deal with and it actually had a big influence on me.
Everything from probably...
BEHAR: Well, it`s scarring. I think it scars you without really getting to the point of it. You don`t know what it is.
GRIFFIN: And it is all about the secrets.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: And my act is all about blurting out everything and no secrets and sort of revealing everything. And so when I wrote this book, I couldn`t really write a book without writing about him. That was the most difficult part for sure.
BEHAR: Did you tell your mother?
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: When you were little?
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: What did your mother say?
GRIFFIN: My mom and dad still like, they didn`t really know quite what it was and couldn`t quite put it together. It is a very tough thing.
BEHAR: It is like the priest scandal where the priest would just so often...
GRIFFIN: Well, I had a gay priest cousin, who died of AIDS.
BEHAR: Well, gay -- it doesn`t mean pedophile, you know.
GRIFFIN: No but he was also moved parish to parish to parish. And there was always sort of rumblings when I was a kid. But Once again, you know...
BEHAR: So he was a cousin.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: So there is something in your family.
GRIFFIN: So maybe. I don`t know. I`ve always wondered.
That is a big part of the book. I`m just not a big secret keeper. I don`t think secrets ever work. I think they just fester.
BEHAR: It is not like you to really not talk about things. It`s good that you did.
Let`s talk about your husband for a minute because I have met your husband. He seemed like a very nice guy.
GRIFFIN: Yes. He`s nice.
BEHAR: What happened? You were so happily married there. For one, he was in the car with you on the D List.
What happened?
GRIFFIN: I was actually quite happily married. There is a part and then I think that there was some, you know, financial improprieties that happened.
BEHAR: Yes. He stole money from you.
GRIFFIN: $72,000?
BEHAR: What did he do with it?
GRIFFIN: To this day I don`t know. Which is so interesting to me...
BEHAR: How did you find out?
GRIFFIN: My accountant called.
BEHAR: Oh, your accountant called.
GRIFFIN: My accountant called and said...
BEHAR: Did you confront him?
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: What happened then?
GRIFFIN: At first he denied it and then he said it was me. I said they told me that the bank has a tape of someone taking my ATM card, going up. And so, I said, look apparently there is a tape. If there is a tape you might as well tell me before someone at my accountant`s office sees it.
BEHAR: So are you divorced? Or separated?
GRIFFIN: I was stunned. We`re totally divorced.
BEHAR: Do you have to pay him alimony? California is so crazy about that.
GRIFFIN: Can I tell you -- honestly it was not about the money. And it was so funny because the first person I talked to about -- not the first person but on TV, I talked to Larry King about it.
And he was talking about the money and the dollar amount and honestly it really is about the trust. I started to question everything and do I really know him. Did I ever know him? Why did he lie about this? You know this happened for over a period of about two years.
BEHAR: Yes.
GRIFFIN: Two years. Going into my wallet when I was asleep, taking my 2 ATM cards, going and withdrawing $1,500 and putting the cards back in the wallet before I woke up in the morning.
BEHAR: It`s like -- it`s a betrayal.
GRIFFIN: Yes. And it`s bizarre and I couldn`t figure it out. I didn`t know why he needed it or what he wanted for it. He never showed up with a Rolex watch.
BEHAR: So are you off marriage now forever?
GRIFFIN: I`m kind of off marriage.
BEHAR: You`re off marriage and there are single guys out there -- Ryan O`Neal -- people like that are available. Are you interested in him?
GRIFFIN: Yes. I think that would be very healthy. Or Alana Stewart (ph) for a lesbian tryst.
BEHAR: I think so. It could turn you into a lesbian, that type of affair with your husband. If somebody goes into my bank account, I am down with the girls.
GRIFFIN: That`s right. I`m Kathy Orman. Say hello to Kathy Orman.
BEHAR: We`ll be right back with the real Kathy Griffin. Or will we? Find out what I mean when we return.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: And I`m back with a woman who has a tongue that could cut you. And speaking of cutting, Kathy, you had plastic surgery that almost killed you.
GRIFFIN: Yes.
BEHAR: What was it?
GRIFFIN: By the way, I call it dental work.
BEHAR: Why?
GRIFFIN: That is my code in Hollywood.
BEHAR: Is that what they all say in Hollywood? Dental work.
GRIFFIN: I think a few of the "Desperate Housewives" have been to the dentist a couple of times. I think everyone has actually been to the dentist.
Anyone over about -- you know, like there is somebody on the hills that has like lip plumping. So everyone goes to the dentist.
BEHAR: Oh, I don`t think it has -- it`s to do with age anymore.
GRIFFIN: It used to.
BEHAR: Yes. But not anymore. Now just people just have to be looking exactly how everybody else looks.
You had a little problem with plastic surgery and then you did it again. Why did you do it again when you almost died from it?
GRIFFIN: Because I am insecure and I want to be better. In fact, I`d like to be Jennifer Aniston.
BEHAR: But you look very good and you`re not going to be Jennifer Aniston.
GRIFFIN: But I want to be Jennifer Aniston.
BEHAR: Why?
GRIFFIN: Because then my life would be better and I`d be happier than I had ever been.
BEHAR: Why? You think she`s so happy? She doesn`t have a boyfriend half the time.
GRIFFIN: So pick somebody else. I want to be somebody from the hills.
I want to be one of the Kardashians. How`s that?
BEHAR: No you don`t.
GRIFFIN: Yes, I do. I want to be Khloe.
BEHAR: But what...
GRIFFIN: There, you didn`t see that coming. You thought I would say Kim.
BEHAR: I didn`t. You know what, I don`t even know who they are.
You think that everybody has to have surgery. You say that Lisa Kudrow dyed her hair blond, got a boob job and became a star overnight and then she got "Friends."
GRIFFIN: I`ve never seen anything like it. It was fantastic.
BEHAR: But do you really think that did it.
GRIFFIN: Oh yes. I mean look -- I love Lisa. She`s obviously very talented. I knew her sort of from the audition circuit. And then she was auditioning and auditioning -- not really getting a break.
She and I auditioned for "Saturday Night Live" together. We both didn`t get the job. And I said, this girl`s so talented. I swear to God -- she got a nose job, dyed her hair blond, and then boom, she was on Cheers, she was on "Mad About You" and then she was on "Friends". Skyrocketed to fame.
I don`t think it hurt.
BEHAR: So it really does help.
GRIFFIN: I don`t mean to bother any of the camera people, especially the PA. I`m sorry, are you taking coffee orders.
BEHAR: They are a chatty group here. I was reading that one of the girls from "Saturday Night Live."
GRIFFIN: I would like a latte with non-fat milk. Even the comedians -- come on you have to keep up appearances.
BEHAR: I have botox and restolin (ph). I will shout it from the rooftops.
I don`t really care if anybody knows it. Why is it such a secret with people? And how come comics always tell it? Roseanne told it. Joan told it. Phyllis Diller told it.
GRIFFIN: Because we can`t keep a secret because it`s too funny.
It`s too ridiculous.
The whole process -- the whole idea that there is a celebrity door at these plastic surgeons` office in Beverly Hills and you have got to do the celebrity knock and they know you are famous by how many knocks. I always just stand out in the hall saying it`s Kathy Griffin, let me in.
But I can`t get in the celebrity door, it`s a disaster.
BEHAR: I know. It`s horrible.
GRIFFIN: But there is a whole culture of plastic surgery. I am on the D List in the plastic surgeon`s office.
I think all women want to -- I talked to Bette Midler she said all women want to look better. I don`t care who they are and what they do.
BEHAR: Yes, everybody wants to look good.
GRIFFIN: And I`m a victim as much as anything.
BEHAR: Are you going to talk about me man in your next act? That I was annoying in some way?
GRIFFIN: I`m going to say...
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: What are you going to say?
I was stunad (ph).
Stutgard is a guy I dated in college. Stunad is an Italian word which means you are out of it.
GRIFFIN: Ok. So I`m going to say that I was with you and that you were stunad.
And also I`m going to say that your -- what do you call your boyfriend?
BEHAR: My spousal equivalent, Steve.
GRIFFIN: You are worse than the gays. Spousal equivalent?
BEHAR: That`s what he is. He is a spousal equivalent without being a spouse.
Thank you, Kathy Griffin. Kathy`s new book, "Official Book Club Selection" -- that`s the title of the book -- is in stores now. Thanks, Kathy.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
GRIFFIN: I am a little nervous because we have just done one of our blocks and she mentioned being stunad and I don`t know what that is. But I have a little diarrhea thinking about it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Earlier this week I had a chance to talk to Bette Midler who made TV history and won an Emmy as Johnny Carson`s last guest.
(MUSIC)
BEHAR: One of great moments in television. And now she is my first guest. Here`s hoping the magic continues. Bette Midler.
Thank you, honey, for coming on the show. It sort of tears us up when we see that. Doesn`t it?
BETTE MIDLER, SINGER/ACTRESS: Well, maybe you.
BEHAR: You...
MIDLER: No, for me I`m all smiles.
BEHAR: You`re all smiles?
MIDLER: Once in a while I get misty eyed. He was a wonderful guy. Wonderful guy. He did so much for me. He did so much for so many people that I know. You know?
BEHAR: No. I never got on his show.
MIDLER: You didn`t?
BEHAR: No.
MIDLER: That`s too damn bad.
BEHAR: No, nothing.
MIDLER: Well, maybe you didn`t deserve to get on that show.
BEHAR: So, you know, who cares? I mean I`m sorry he is dead and everything but...
MIDLER: But here you have a show of your own. Hey.
(LAUGHTER)
Congratulations.
BEHAR: Yes, let`s not talk about him.
MIDLER: I`m so excited. You know he was a great guy. You`re going to have a great run.
BEHAR: I hope. And I`m glad that you`re my first guest as you were his last. Do you think he ever -- just one more question about him. Do you think he really wanted to ever leave? Does anyone ever want to leave?
MIDLER: I think some people really want to and some people don`t. Everyone is different. I think there are some people who working in television today who will -- I have to be carried out feet first.
BEHAR: No names.
MIDLER: And that`s...
BEHAR: No names.
MIDLER: But there are other people who does have had enough. I mean it`s hard work. It`s really hard work. And when you get -- when you look around, if you`re a certain kind of a person, curious person, you say cheese, it`s a lot of the same. I have been doing this for a long time and every day it`s pretty much the same. Those kinds of people usually say, you know, I`ve had enough.
BEHAR: So what would you do if you weren`t in Vegas? If you weren`t...
MIDLER: We weren`t talking about me.
BEHAR: Well, no, but I mean...
MIDLER: I`m not retiring and you can`t make me.
BEHAR: But -- you`ll never retire ever?
MIDLER: You know what? I would never say never. But I would not -- if I were going to retire I wouldn`t announce it. I would just, you know, back up into the wings and walk away. I wouldn`t -- why would you say I`m going to retire?
BEHAR: Announce it. Yes.
MIDLER: Why would you announce it? Because then if you change your mind, you know? You hit...
BEHAR: Well, like Cher. She always has a comeback.
MIDLER: Well, God bless her, you know? She`s made it pay.
BEHAR: All right. Let`s talk politics for a minute, OK?
MIDLER: OK.
BEHAR: I know that you stumped for Obama.
MIDLER: I did.
BEHAR: Why -- was that the first time you ever stumped for a president?
MIDLER: No. I stumped for a lot of people. I stumped for all the Democrats for years. I think since the late `70s.
BEHAR: They`ve been calling him a lot of bad names.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: From a fascist to a socialist, which is really stupid because they`re the opposites, really.
MIDLER: Yes, yes.
BEHAR: So what do you think about that?
MIDLER: I think it`s a new low in political discourse and it`s very distressing. I think it`s people of good will are very distressed by it because it`s so ugly and it`s so whacky.
BEHAR: It`s whacky. But what should people of goodwill do besides talk about it like we are?
MIDLER: I think people of goodwill should talk rationally and politely. In a civil tone. And people should be willing to listen to the other side and the people that you`re speaking to should be willing to listen to your side. That seems to have been -- that seems to be gone.
BEHAR: Well, we`re trying to do that. But you know someone like Glenn Beck has made gazillions of dollars because he is out there being sort of hateful in many ways. He calls himself a clown and a comedian. Do you think he is funny?
MIDLER: I don`t think he`s funny even a little bit. I`ve never had a laugh from Glenn Beck. In fact, I find him terrifying.
BEHAR: You do?
MIDLER: I do. I find him terrifying. He`s like an old school demagogue and that`s really frightening. Because, you know, if you really -- if you look around at the rest of the world and what this kind of -- this kind of behavior has done like in Rwanda.
BEHAR: Yes
MIDLER: Where the demagogues got on the radio and start -- and fermented all that hate between the Tutsis and the...
BEHAR: Hutus.
MIDLER: Hutus. And the devastation that happened from that. I mean it`s -- it`s terrifying. And that could happen -- you know, that could -- you could turn on a dime. That could happen here.
BEHAR: Well, we have free speech here. And everything he says we can say something else.
MIDLER: I don`t think hate speech is so free. I don`t think hate speech...
(CROSSTALK)
MIDLER: I`m not for -- censorship but I also feel like be a human being.
BEHAR: I know, but you can`t stop people from hate speech because they have the right to say it.
MIDLER: Well, I...
BEHAR: It`s the First Amendment.
MIDLER: I think that -- I think that people who are educated to be civil are civil. That`s all there is to it. People who are not educated in any way or just a little on the barbaric side, what can you do? But that`s the fault of all the education system, I think, and the way they`re brought up.
BEHAR: It`s in a lot of trouble, the education system. What do you think -- speaking of that, what do you think of Sarah Palin?
MIDLER: I think she`s a really interesting character on the American scene.
BEHAR: Do you identify with her? Americans do.
MIDLER: I do not identify with Sarah Palin. I find her...
BEHAR: She hunts and fishes. Do you hunt and fish?
MIDLER: I don`t think she hunts and fishes according to Levi Johnson.
BEHAR: Oh really?
MIDLER: No, according to Levi Johnson and the "Vanity Fair", she doesn`t hunt or fish. In fact has never picked up a fishing rod. Or cook. Which I...
BEHAR: Do you believe him?
MIDLER: You know what? That article was so fascinating because it -- the sound of it, the voice in the article seemed so legitimate that I kind of sort of -- it could go either way.
BEHAR: So you would believe him, the little twerp, over her?
MIDLER: Well, you -- it was interesting.
(LAUGHTER)
It was very interesting.
BEHAR: Those people laughing are Alcoholic Anonymous are here.
(LAUGHTER)
Go ahead.
MIDLER: I don`t actually know the way -- actually I don`t know many journalists. I know one or two.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: I don`t really know how they do what they do. I don`t really know how they do what they do. I don`t know how they manage to illicit all that information from someone like Levi Johnson.
BEHAR: Well, I guess -- you don`t know if he`s telling the truth in "Vanity Fair"...
(CROSSTALK)
MIDLER: Do you know if anyone is telling the truth at all ever? I mean it`s gotten to that point where you just don`t know.
BEHAR: I know.
MIDLER: We used to have these (INAUDIBLE), you know, these father figures. Oh yes, Walter Cronkite, he`s telling like it is. But, where is Walter? You know? I mean...
BEHAR: He died a few weeks ago.
MIDLER: I know that.
(LAUGHTER)
That`s what I mean. I mean...
BEHAR: That`s two dead people in this one conversation so far.
MIDLER: And we could go on.
BEHAR: We could go on.
MIDLER: This is a very bad year.
BEHAR: You know I want to change the subject.
(LAUGHTER)
I know.
MIDLER: And I am dying right now.
BEHAR: No, you`re not. You know you and I are constantly being -- they think I`m you and they think you are me. Everywhere we go.
MIDLER: Separated at birth.
BEHAR: Now let`s just look at the camera together for a second. Can you get the two -- oh there`s a picture. Look. Does that -- do we look alike? I don`t think we`re a look alike.
MIDLER: Well, I had a look on my face like why are you pointing that camera at me? And you are like, hey, here`s I am.
BEHAR: I look like someone is pointing something behind me.
MIDLER: No. I don`t -- actually, in this, right here, we have had photographs taken where we do look very, very much alike.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: Especially when I had red hair. But I haven`t had red hair for 30 years so there you go.
BEHAR: I was on a cruise, what, before I had "The View." Right? And I`m on this cruise, and I performed and I walked around the boat. I talked to people, to the whole crews, and then I overheard someone say, "How could they afford Bette Midler?" I mean...
(LAUGHTER)
That was at the end of the cruise.
MIDLER: That`s hilarious.
BEHAR: Seriously. That`s a true story.
MIDLER: I was in Paris.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: I was in Paris on a little holiday not so long ago.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: Just yesterday I got...
BEHAR: Did you see Roman Polanski?
MIDLER: I did not see him. But I`ll tell you, I was in the loober (ph) looking for a loo and I got to a loo and the loober, and I`m standing in a line like everybody does, and a lady turned to me and said you look just like Bette Midler, and I said imagine. She said...
(LAUGHTER)
And she said I bet you wish you had her money.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s a good story.
But you know, you`re an actress then, like, I love your work. I love you work, I have to say.
MIDLER: Thank you.
BEHAR: I saw you in Vegas. I saw you in theaters in New York, and the old days, you know, when you were first starting with Barry Manilow. All those great years. And I have all your albums. I`m such -- I`m gushing now over you.
MIDLER: Thank you.
BEHAR: But you know, you are not blue. You`re not really blue when you act.
MIDLER: Oh, I work blue. I do. I work blue.
BEHAR: I don`t think that that`s blue. I would say you were bawdy.
MIDLER: First -- well, I am bawdy.
BEHAR: You`re a bawdy.
MIDLER: You have to tell the audience at home what blue means.
BEHAR: Well, blue means that you`re swearing. You might drop the f-bomb, for example.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: And other words that George Collin said not to use. On television.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: But you can do it in a concert.
MIDLER: Yes, you can, and I do. So I consider -- I sometimes feel like I`m working a little blue for my crowd because my crowd...
BEHAR: They love it.
MIDLER: They -- my husband says they pay to hear you swear. At first I was like offended, and then I was like yes, I think he is right.
BEHAR: Tell the audience what the Hoolaween party is for?
MIDLER: The Hoolaween party is for my organization. I founded it about 14 years ago. It`s called New York Restoration Project. We clean parks in underserved neighbors. We are the owners and the designers and caretakers of 55 community gardens. We teach children environmental education.
BEHAR: Very good.
MIDLER: We teach rowing programs. We teach, teach, teach.
BEHAR: You`re very good. I mean, do you have OCD or something?
MIDLER: I`m so good.
BEHAR: I mean...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: What do you have that causes you to want to clean up New York?
MIDLER: I think it`s a compulsion.
BEHAR: Which is a great thing.
MIDLER: I think it`s a compulsion. I really do. But I can`t help it. I was brought up in the most beautiful spot in the whole world.
BEHAR: Hawaii.
MIDLER: Hawaii.
BEHAR: Hawaii.
MIDLER: Yes. And when I came to the continent of the United States, the continent of North America, I said why are the clouds brown?
BEHAR: That was California, right?
MIDLER: That was California. And why is there garbage on the street? I couldn`t understand that. I -- it really disturbed me. So that was my mission. I got on that path and I never left. I never thought I would be still picking up garbage so many years after I stopped dating it.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: That`s a good line.
MIDLER: Thank you.
BEHAR: OK. So Vegas. How do you like Vegas? You love it?
MIDLER: I like it. I like it a lot. I`ve actually gotten to know the town a little bit. I have friends there. I have relationships.
BEHAR: You have friends there with normal people?
MIDLER: Yes, normal people. There are a lot of normal people there.
BEHAR: Yes. Of course.
MIDLER: They`re not always in the casino. I learned poker. Although I can`t play blackjack but I did learn poker. I have my little thing that I carry with me all the time.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: So I can memorize, you know?
BEHAR: How does your husband like it there?
MIDLER: He doesn`t mind it at all. It is so glittery and so glamorous in a crazy way.
BEHAR: Well, he`s a performer, too, isn`t he?
MIDLER: He is a performer and he...
BEHAR: I saw him at your birthday party.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: And he did a little performance art thing. He was very charming.
MIDLER: He`s extremely charming and he`s brilliant. He`s just brilliant.
(CROSSTALK)
MIDLER: I`d go everywhere with him.
BEHAR: So you are going to keep him?
MIDLER: I -- well, 25 years.
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: Yes. So he loves all this and he`s seen the show 40 or 50 times and he cries and laughs every single time.
BEHAR: Oh my god.
MIDLER: He`s crazy.
BEHAR: He is a keeper.
MIDLER: He is. Really.
BEHAR: He`s really nuts.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: You should keep him, though.
MIDLER: I got him.
BEHAR: OK, Bette.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: I`m so happy that you came to see me.
MIDLER: Is that it? Are we...
BEHAR: Yes.
MIDLER: Is it over?
BEHAR: We`re done.
MIDLER: Do we have to go?
BEHAR: I mean, we had such a good time. This was my first show. I had a wonderful night.
MIDLER: Well, let me tell you...
BEHAR: Will all my friends here tonight. Go ahead, you have...
(CROSSTALK)
MIDLER: I just want to say that Hoolaween is on October 30th this year.
BEHAR: Buy your table.
MIDLER: And it`s at the -- buy a table. It`s at the Waldorf Astoria. Be there or be square. (INAUDIBLE) are going to be entertaining.
BEHAR: Wow.
MIDLER: And I`ll probably serve chicken pot pie.
BEHAR: And you sing. Usually sing.
MIDLER: I always sing.
BEHAR: She always sings.
MIDLER: And we are honoring the mayor.
BEHAR: Mayor Bloomberg.
MIDLER: Yes.
BEHAR: OK. Thanks, honey.
That was Bette Midler, one of the best. Back with another great star, Vanessa Williams, in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: You know, not for nothing, but my show has been on the air for, what, like, two minutes? And already I have been called every name in the book. I`ve been called stupid, pushy, dumb, a loudmouth and a Marxist. I take exception. I am not a Marxist. I own property. OK, it`s in foreclosure but still.
This name calling doesn`t bother me. You think it bothers me? I`m used to it. Bill O`Reilly once called me a pinhead. Yes, he`s mature. And a Christian columnist named Eric Rush actually called me a fatty bloombladdy. Which version of the bible does he read? King James or the Dr. Seuss?
(LAUGHTER)
Let me say something to these nattering, negative nay-bombs. I am a mature woman capable of intelligent discourse. I love to engage in cogent debate and partake in well-informed conversation. OK? I relish the thought of sitting down with all of my adversaries.
So, Glenn, Rush, Bill, I invite all of you to come on the show and discuss things like rational adults even if you are a big bunch of doody heads.
(LAUGHTER)
But that`s just me.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest made headlines when she became the first black Miss America 26 years ago. Well, that was a long time ago. Seems like yesterday. Today she continues her multi-faceted career as a world famous actress and singer. She just released her latest album, "The Real Thing," and she`s been nominated for an Emmy three times for her role as the cold- hearted diva Wilhelmina Slater on ABC`s "Ugly Betty."
Let`s look at that.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VANESSA WILLIAMS, SINGER/ACTRESS: Am I smiling? I can`t tell.
MICHAEL URIE, ACTOR: I think you are. Oh, Willie. So good to be back and have health insurance again because I have this weird mole thing. Daniel still runs mode and a Alexis still runs me. What`s our next move?
WILLIAMS: To divide the house of need.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Please welcome the beautiful and talented, Vanessa Williams.
WILLIAMS: Am I smiling? I can`t tell.
BEHAR: You`re smiling.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: You know, Kathy Griffin and I were talking about plastic surgery and things. And she says that basically you can`t get along in Hollywood without some kind of plastic surgery, and it`s not just people who are older. There`s young girls getting stuff. What do you think?
WILLIAMS: Well, you know, there is a pressure to stay young for sure. To stay in the game. You know I was lucky enough to -- when I was 40 I wanted to maintain the way I looked. I didn`t want to look like anybody else. I just wanted to stay...
BEHAR: Well, why would you want to look like somebody else?
WILLIAMS: Well, you know...
BEHAR: I`d rather look like you if I were you.
WILLIAMS: Thank you.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: But, so that`s when I first partook in Botox.
BEHAR: Oh the Botox. Yes. We love the Botox.
WILLIAMS: We love the Botox and it`s easy. And it`s a needle and you`re in and out in less than 20 minutes. And you know, if don`t like it, you don`t have to do it. If you do like it you get done every four -- four months or so. And it`s wonderful. So also playing Wilhelmina Slater, I`m very vocal about using Botox as a character.
And Allergan, the maker of Botox cosmetic, had teamed up with Dress for Success and asked me to be the spokesperson. That`s a joint venture. And we`re doing these events across the country. And talking about the effects and the safety and -- but also giving back. And we`ve given $250,000 to Dress for Success, a great nonprofit.
BEHAR: Yes, it is -- that is good charity. I know that one.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Yes. So it`s great combination.
BEHAR: Yes. But I mean, the thing is that, you know, you`ll say that you`ve had it.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: You know?
WILLIAMS: Well, why lie? I mean...
BEHAR: Everybody lies.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: You think that actresses are not lying, Vanessa?
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: Come on.
WILLIAMS: I guess that`s we get paid to do, huh? Lie for a living?
BEHAR: Well, if you ask -- if I directly ask some of them, on my show -- on the other show, "The View," and they`ll say no. Right to my face. They lie through their caps.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: I mean it`s...
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: It`s crazy.
BEHAR: Yes. So, you know.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: I mean, I think that, also, you know, it doesn`t apply to men as much.
WILLIAMS: Yes, but you know, there`s -- but the amount of Botox going on, there`s almost a million men that are doing it.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: On a yearly basis. So it`s definitely an issue but also something that men want to do, too. And why not?
BEHAR: I guess...
WILLIAMS: You know, cutting, it`s, you know, it`s not permanent.
BEHAR: Well, no, Botox is not cutting. And those other shots.
WILLIAMS: Right.
BEHAR: But people are getting chin implants, they`re getting boob jobs which I don`t really get the boob job thing.
WILLIAMS: Well, if you`ve never (INAUDIBLE) kids, you get the boob job thing.
BEHAR: I know.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: I know. Is it normal to triple the (EXPLETIVE DELETED) on the treadmill?
(LAUGHTER)
Just asking.
(LAUGHTER)
BEHAR: So now -- what did you say? How old did you say you are?
WILLIAMS: I`m 46.
BEHAR: You don`t mind saying that either?
WILLIAMS: They can Google it in a second.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: Again, why lie?
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: They`re going to find out anyway.
BEHAR: I started lying about my daughter`s age. That`s how I did it.
WILLIAMS: Did you?
BEHAR: Yes. Too tricky. But are you not scared of getting older?
WILLIAMS: Do I like getting older?
BEHAR: No, no one likes it. Let`s be real. No one likes it.
WILLIAMS: Yes, I`m a little, I mean, as the body gets bigger and you know what -- your normal routine doesn`t work, that`s when you start -- just panic. Like when your normal routine all of a sudden you`re still getting flabby.
BEHAR: You got to up the game.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: I know.
WILLIAMS: That makes me nervous.
BEHAR: Well, it must be hard for someone like you, though, I would think, because you are still beautiful but you were really a gorgeous, gorgeous woman. Miss America.
WILLIAMS: Well, you know...
BEHAR: Jane Klein. That`s pretty pretty.
WILLIAMS: Well, yes, but...
BEHAR: That is pretty damn pretty.
WILLIAMS: Well, I think that the pressure was that I never felt any pressure. I mean I didn`t grow being you`re a princess, you`re gorgeous. I never -- was in pageants before that. I was a junior at Syracuse University. I won the whole thing within six months.
So I had no idea what was going on. So I didn`t have that pressure of, like, oh I got to keep an image up. I was just a college kid. So I don`t really feel the pressure. Of course, when you see yourself on screen, that`s when it`s, like, oh god, that five pounds that I can`t lose. Oh, what`s going on here? Got to do something about that.
BEHAR: I know.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: I know. It`s ugly. But let`s see if we can change the subject now. You were the first black Miss America. And at that time ...
WILLIAMS: 1983.
BEHAR: You were breaking new ground. I mean you -- that was a new thing in those days. I don`t think -- have we seen it since?
WILLIAMS: Oh yes. There`s been...
BEHAR: How many times? I`m not really -- I don`t really follow it that much.
WILLIAMS: I don`t know. I don`t follow it either but I know there`s been at least three or four for sure. If not more.
BEHAR: Do you think that -- you know, Barack Obama is having -- catching a lot of flak from the right wing.
WILLIAMS: But there`s no one else better to be the first. I mean...
BEHAR: Well, he`s brilliant.
WILLIAMS: He is brilliant. What he`s had to face already and it`s not even a year yet? Not even, you know, going into six months, you know, of people shouting in his face.
BEHAR: And calling him names.
WILLIAMS: Calling him names. Calling him a fascist and a...
BEHAR: And a communist which are the opposites really.
WILLIAMS: Exactly.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: And like, you know, likening him to Hitler. It`s amazing how passionate and also so very scary for an American to see how divisive it`s become. But he is the man to do it because he`s graceful, he`s articulate, he`s just -- he`s got great class and he`s got courage.
BEHAR: But I always say that he would have never been elected if he didn`t have everything he needed. It was like, "Guess Who`s Coming to Dinner?"
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: Where Sidney Poitier had everything you possibly could want in a man.
WILLIAMS: Exactly.
BEHAR: And that would be the only way that he could be accented as a black president, black guy, marrying a white girl at that time.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
BEHAR: It`s true in this case, too.
WILLIAMS: Yes. Absolutely.
BEHAR: OK. More with Vanessa Williams in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: We are back with singer, actress and former Miss America, Vanessa Williams.
Vanessa, we were talking about racism in America a little bit. Because Maureen Dowd, in one of her columns way back now, couple of weeks at this point, she was talking about how she thought that these scurrilous attacks calling Obama a racist and people showing up with guns at some of these tea parties, et cetera.
WILLIAMS: Right.
BEHAR: Was based on the fact that he was black. Do you agree with that?
WILLIAMS: I unfortunately do. You know? I think that there`s a lot of unrest and a lot of people don`t want to change. So that -- I think it`s based in the fear. It`s always when people act out in that type of anger it`s based on fear and it`s the fear of change. That`s what he promised and what he`s trying to do and trying to deliver.
A lot of people don`t want to change. A lot of people think they`re more American if they don`t change.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: That things are great so we`re not going to change. We`re more American than you are, which is incorrect.
BEHAR: It`s ridiculous.
WILLIAMS: Yes.
BEHAR: But do you experience racism or have you?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
BEHAR: You have.
WILLIAMS: Absolutely. Throughout my life. And I mean...
BEHAR: At work?
WILLIAMS: Well, I don`t know, because most of my things are auditions so I have no idea what they say behind the scenes. But in terms of confrontations and stuff.
BEHAR: I tell you what they`re saying, she`s a gorgeous woman. You know that`s what they`re saying.
(LAUGHTER)
WILLIAMS: But, you know, growing up, of course, been called the "n" word, you know, growing up in a predominantly white neighborhood.
BEHAR: Where did you grow up?
WILLIAMS: In West Chester. You know? I`ve been accused of breaking into somebody`s car when I was opening my own car door and getting my child`s shoe which was incredible. I`ve had my kids -- when they`re walking for Halloween, one of my daughters was wearing a beautiful queen of hearts dress and a woman behind her said oh look at the queen of spades.
BEHAR: Oh.
WILLIAMS: Yes. And this is in California in a very liberal area.
BEHAR: Nasty people.
WILLIAMS: Exactly. So it happens very unexpectedly.
BEHAR: Does it hurt your feelings?
WILLIAMS: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: It brings the lioness.
BEHAR: It does?
WILLIAMS: It makes me want to kill.
BEHAR: So did you turn around and smack that woman?
WILLIAMS: My husband at the time had to hold me back.
BEHAR: He did.
WILLIAMS: I went to the neighbor who I knew knew this person and I told her. And I said if anything happens you know that it was me.
BEHAR: You know when Hillary Clinton and Obama were both running in the primaries a lot of lefty people, you know, liberals were saying, I wonder if the country is more sexist or more racist. What do you think?
WILLIAMS: Oh, boy.
BEHAR: You`re both. You`re a woman and you`re African-American.
WILLIAMS: And the devil...
BEHAR: But you`re not African-American, you`re Indian-American, you were Welch, you were telling me. You`re a big mixture.
WILLIAMS: Well, I did the DNA test and we started breaking down what the background was. It was fascinating. And we`re all a mixture of things in this country which makes our country great. And again, back to who we have leading the country.
BEHAR: Yes.
WILLIAMS: He`s a composite of everybody. You know?
BEHAR: But I thought the country was more racist and -- I would say that, if anything, I mean, I don`t think all Americans obviously fall into this category but we have people who are sexist and racist in every country.
WILLIAMS: But I also think growing up in New York, I thought, OK, it was the south. And it`s not just the south.
BEHAR: No. It`s just bad people everywhere and good people everywhere. That`s the country.
Well, thanks very much for coming on.
WILLIAMS: Thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Vanessa, it`s always a pleasure to see you. Thank you. Good luck. Thanks, everybody else, for coming on and thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
