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War Plan for Afghanistan; North Korea Wants New Nuke Talks; President Obama Focuses on War, Security

Aired October 06, 2009 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

TONY HARRIS, CNN ANCHOR: And good morning, everyone. It is Tuesday, October 6th. And here are the top stories for you in the CNN NEWSROOM.

The secretaries of State and Defense sit down exclusively with CNN's Christiane Amanpour. Their views on the way forward in Afghanistan.

The 10 riskiest foods. A consumer group crunches the data and lists the ones most likely to make you sick.

A new ad putting new pressure on Congress. African-Americans and Latinos ban together to demand health care reform.

Good morning, everyone. I'm Tony Harris. And you are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

First this hour, Afghanistan. The war enters its ninth year tomorrow.

Today, President Obama hosts 31 members of Congress. He will get their input as he reviews his strategy for the war. The group he is meeting with today includes Democrats and Republicans. They are Capitol Hill VIPs, the congressional leadership and committee chairs. One option on the table, more troops, perhaps as many as 40,000.

Listen to the defense secretary.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, DEFENSE SECRETARY: And the reality is that because of our inability and the inability, frankly, of our allies to put enough troops into Afghanistan, the Taliban do have the momentum right now, it seems.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Secretary Gates ruled out one potential option in Afghanistan, and that is a sudden and complete U.S. withdrawal. He spoke exclusively to CNN's Christiane Amanpour last night at George Washington University.

CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr is here with us now.

And Barbara, you have Secretary Gates warning about the Taliban's momentum. How does that square with what we heard over the weekend from National Security Adviser Jim Jones?

BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, retired General Jones told John King on "STATE OF THE UNION" he didn't see any possibility, really, that the Taliban were about to return to power, about to take over. This is one of the key intelligence assumptions people are struggling with right now, Tony, in the national security arena to try to decide what to do about Afghanistan.

How strong are the Taliban? How much momentum do they have? How much control do they really exert?

You have to have some idea of all of that before you can make decisions about what to do. General Jones says they're not about to take control of the country. Many military commanders will tell you, yes, that's right. That's not even the question, though, because the Taliban exert some level of control over 30 percent of Afghanistan in individual towns and villages across the country, in these remote areas where the Taliban have their own court system, their own schools.

They are in control in those areas. And that, perhaps, is what Defense Secretary Gates is really referring to. The people of Afghanistan have the perception the Taliban have the momentum in these areas, and Secretary Gates believes that is a pretty accurate perception -- Tony.

HARRIS: Well, Barbara, if leaving is not an option, does that mean the administration has essentially settled on a strategy?

STARR: I don't think so. You know, we talk to people -- we've been talking to sources all day long, every day, for the last several days.

The word around the Pentagon is that it's going to be the end of October before we see those final decisions being made at the earliest. But again, you know, you talk about momentum, U.S. military commanders say this is a decision that everyone should take their time with, but that they shouldn't take forever.

General McChrystal pressing the point, every day you don't make a decision is another day for the Taliban to gain on that question of momentum. So, maybe what's on the table here is, can the U.S. decide faster than the Taliban can make their next move?

Tony.

HARRIS: Yes.

Barbara Starr at the Pentagon for us.

Barbara, appreciate it. Thank you.

And tomorrow marks the eighth anniversary of the U.S. war in Afghanistan. We want to hear your thoughts on the war and where the U.S. should go from here. Give us a call at 1-877-742-5760. Leave us a message, and we ill play some of your comments live in the CNN NEWSROOM. That number, again, is 1-877-742-5760.

North Korea is apparently ready to get back to six-party talks on nuclear disarmament, but first it wants one-on-one talks with the United States. That's according to China's official news agency. It comes as China's premiere wraps up a high-profile visit to Pyongyang.

Our Beijing bureau chief, Jaime Florcruz, says many analysts are skeptical of the offer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JAIME FLORCRUZ, BEIJING BUREAU CHIEF: Cynics say this may just be a stalling tactic of North Korea to buy time. Reports in Seoul claim that North Korea in its final stage of restoring its plutonium- producing plants which Pyongyang had began to dismantle until it walked away from the talks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: David Letterman in full damage control mode last night on his program, using himself as material for some pretty funny punch lines. He apologized publicly to his wife and female staffers.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID LETTERMAN, "THE LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": It's fall here in New York City, and I spent the whole weekend raking my hate mail.

(LAUGHTER)

And it's cold, too. It's chilly outside my house, chilly inside my house. I got into the car this morning and the navigation lady wasn't speaking to me.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: It was his first time back on the air since admitting to affairs with some of his co-workers before his marriage. Letterman says his wife, Regina Lasko, has been horribly hurt by his behavior. He says he has his work cut out for him repairing his relationship with her.

The war in Afghanistan and national security matters top President Obama's agenda today. As we mentioned, he meets with top members of Congress to discuss the war. But first, he visits the National Counterterrorism Center this hour.

White House Correspondent Dan Lothian joins us live.

And Dan, the president is visiting experts who literally have their ears and their eyes on potential threats to national security. DAN LOTHIAN, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: That's right. We really saw this group come to life after 9/11, where you can share this intelligence information. And so what they do is they compile intelligence and then funnel it to the right government agency where it will be needed.

The president, we are told by a White House aide, will be going over there not only to thank the workers for everything that they've been doing, but also to point out that the war and the intelligence- gathering war is far from over. The mission has not been accomplished. There's still this global threat out there, and this is a center that's very necessary in keeping America safe -- Tony.

HARRIS: And Dan, is the president going to be doing the talking or the listening? Probably a bit of both at this meeting with congressional leaders later today.

LOTHIAN: It really will be a bit of both, Tony. I'm told by a White House senior aide that the president will be making a presentation, sort of laying out where the administration currently is in moving toward a decision on what to do in Afghanistan. But there will also be a chance for Q&A.

The president wants to hear dissenting opinions, we are told. And obviously, there are a lot of congressional members who don't agree with ramping up things in Afghanistan, sending in additional troops there. And so, this is the kind of give and take that the president wants to take part in, this bipartisan conversation taking place here at the White House today -- Tony.

HARRIS: All right.

Dan Lothian at the White House for us.

Dan, appreciate it. Thank you.

Defense Secretary Gates and Secretary of State Hillary Clinton will talk about challenges the U.S. faces overseas not just in Afghanistan, but in Iran and on the global war on terror. Join us today for a special edition of "AMANPOUR." CNN's Christiane Amanpour hosts "Power and Persuasion." It's at 3:00 p.m. Eastern on CNN.

Financial leaders from around the world discussing the global economy. Will the rich get richer?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(WEATHER REPORT)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: The world's finance ministers are in Istanbul to find ways to combat poverty and prevent another global economic crisis. Few of them, however, will actually see the poverty that exists there on the streets.

CNN's Ivan Watson profiles a taxi driver who is trying to attract attention to the city's poorest residents.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IVAN WATSON, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sevket Sahintas works the nightshift, driving his taxi from midnight until dawn. His route takes him past symbols of wealth, both old and new.

Periodically, he stops. Not for customers, but to take photos.

In addition to being a cabbie, Sahintas is also a self-taught photographer. His lens focuses on the poorest segments of Istanbul's society.

"I saw people sleeping in the street in winter," he says. "It made me sad and angry. I started taking photos," he adds, "because I want government officials to see these poor people the way I do and do something to help."

Armed with a small point-and-shoot camera, Sahintas photographs the homeless, who often sleep in bus stops next to billboards advertising luxury products. He also shoots the street kids, prostitutes, and garbage pickers who roam the city streets at night.

"I judge a country's wealth on how its income is distributed," Sahintas says. "If just a few people control most of the money," he adds, " I think that shows a country's poverty, not its wealth."

Sahintas says the global economic downturn has hit the city's taxi drivers, cutting clientele. The crisis has even hurt business for the city's freelance garbage pickers, men like Yashir (ph), who earn seven bucks a night recycling paper to feed his family of six.

Over a cigarette, he tells the taxi driver business has slowed down for Istanbul's shopkeepers. The consequence, there's less packing paper and cardboard boxes for him to scavenge.

Sahintas' unique perspective has won him some international attention. His work has been displayed abroad and here at home in Istanbul. But he doesn't make enough money off of his photos to earn a living. For that, this photographer still has to work the nightshift.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATSON: Tony, this taxi driver/photographer tells me he intentionally highlights the huge income gap in Turkey. Nearly one in five Turks lives below the poverty line, and the economic crisis has hit this country hard. It's hit record unemployment figures here this year -- Tony.

HARRIS: So, Ivan, you know it's customary to see protests at these IMF meetings. Is that the case this time around?

WATSON: Absolutely. Some of those same neighborhoods that we were driving around together with the taxi driver, that's where there were these clashes taking place between riot police and demonstrators. Some of them from leftist, anarchist groups, saying they're going to try to make life as miserable for the so-called capitalists as the capitalists make it for them.

And big clashes going on in the streets. Police firing tear gas, water cannons. Police helicopters buzzing overhead, and the protesters throwing back rocks. We even got caught up in some of the tear gas today here at the conference center, where the delegates from the International Monetary Fund and the World Bank are meeting. It's been much more peaceful, but these clashes have been going on less than a mile away -- Tony.

HARRIS: CNN's Ivan Watson for us in Istanbul, Turkey.

Ivan, thank you.

Some of you may be thinking about lunch, salads, vegetables. One consumer group announces its riskiest foods. And our senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, has all the info. She's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Let's get you caught up on our top stories now.

Afghanistan war strategy on the table at the White House in three hours. President Obama hosts leading Republican and Democratic members of Congress. He is considering more troops for Afghanistan. The manpower shortfall evident this weekend when a Taliban attack killed eight U.S. service members.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN MCHUGH, ARMY SECRETARY: There are far more questions that the theater is trying to work through than we have definitive answers.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: The secretaries of Defense and State discuss war strategy with CNN's Christiane Amanpour. A special edition of "AMANPOUR" at 3:00 Eastern, a CNN exclusive.

General David Petraeus, top commander overseeing the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, is fighting prostate cancer. He underwent two months of radiation at Walter Reed Medical Center in Washington. A spokesman says the treatment was successful and had little impact on Petraeus' official duties.

The old man of NFL quarterbacks gets his revenge. Brett Favre leads the Minnesota Vikings to a 30-23 win over his old team, Green Bay. He split with the Packers and went to play for the Jets, and is now undefeated with the Vikings. Favre now the only quarter to defeat all 32 NFL teams.

Some everyday healthy foods that are regulated by the Food & Drug Administration can still make you really sick, and in rare cases cause death.

CNN Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here with the disturbing findings.

And Elizabeth, the Center for Science in the Public Interest is behind the study. What are some of the findings here?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SR. MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: What they looked at is they looked at food-borne illness outbreaks since 1990, and they sort of counted them up to see which foods were the most responsible for the most outbreaks. So, let's look at the top three.

Number one, leafy greens caused 13,568 illnesses, this group says.

Number two, eggs, 11, 163 illnesses.

And number three, tuna, with 2,341.

Rounding out the top 10, to sound like David Letterman -- can I talk about him?

HARRIS: Yes. Sure. Sure. Sure.

COHEN: OK. Oysters, potatoes, cheese, ice cream, tomatoes, sprouts and berries.

And let me put this in a little bit of context for you, Tony. Let's look at food-borne illnesses from all causes in the United States. The numbers are really quite big.

Seventy-six million cases a year, according to the CDC, of food- borne illness, 325,000 hospitalizations a year. Five thousand deaths from food.

HARRIS: Wow.

COHEN: Yes. I think people don't always know that.

HARRIS: You wouldn't think that, right.

COHEN: Right. People don't always know that.

HARRIS: So, again, this is a study by the Center for Science in the Public Interest. Just want to be more clear on that.

And what responses to the study did you get from the industry?

COHEN: Very strong responses, basically saying that this was poorly done and doesn't really give an accurate reflection of the safety of the food supply in the United States. Let's take a look at two of the responses.

The first one is from the cheese folks. The cheese folks say, "Examples in this report mostly concern consumption of raw milk products which neither the FDA nor the dairy industry recommends." In other words, they say if you are eating raw milk or raw cheese, well, you might get sick, so you shouldn't be eating them. Secondly, let's take a look at the response from the fish people. "CSPI fails to properly highlight the fact that it's not talking about canned tuna. Consumers should take this report with a grain of salt." In other words, they say the illnesses are from fresh tuna.

It's probably safe to say most Americans eat canned tuna. So, you know, they have procedural points about how this study was doing.

HARRIS: Well, let's do this -- let's put the back-and-forth aside for a second. If you are concerned about food safety, are there some steps you can take to better protect yourself at home?

COHEN: Right. I want to be clear.

Sometimes there is nothing you can do. If you happen to get spinach that has E. coli on it and you eat it fresh, which, of course, a lot of people do in a spinach salad, there might be nothing that you can do. But, there are oftentimes where there is something you can do to not eat bacteria and viruses that live in food.

So, first of all, keep hot foods hot and cold foods cold. So, don't leave them sitting out for too long.

Cook meat, poultry and eggs thoroughly. Use separate -- your raw and your cooked foods. So, if you're using a knife to cut raw poultry, don't use that knife to cut a carrot.

HARRIS: That makes sense. Yes, that makes sense.

COHEN: Yes.

Also, wash hands before and after preparing foods.

You know, these are very commonsense things, but people...

HARRIS: That's exactly what I was going to say.

COHEN: Yes, but you know what? People goof all of the time.

HARRIS: Just to remind folks of this.

COHEN: Right, exactly.

HARRIS: It's a good reminder.

COHEN: Exactly.

HARRIS: Great advice, as always, Elizabeth. Good to see you. Thank you.

COHEN: Thanks.

HARRIS: Still to come in the NEWSROOM, thousands of investors lost thousands of dollars in their 401(k) plans last year. We will check in with Susan Lisovicz at the New York Stock Exchange to see if this year looks any brighter. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BUSINESS REPORT)

HARRIS: You know, we're talking about the unemployed in America here in the NEWSROOM, and we've been asking you on my blog page, "What, in your mind, is most responsible for the worsening employment picture?"

A couple of options here: a slow-to-work stimulus package, an economy worse than we thought, employers cutting deeper and hiring slower.

Here's a little bit of what you've been saying to us. This response comes from Richard: "It's as plain as the nose on your face and the reason for most problems, greed and power." Joan's response more solution-based, "Bring manufacturing back into the United States. Hire American workers. Restore middle-class -- the ability of the middle class to buy American products." R. Zimmerman says, "Outsourcing has done damage to the economy. Years ago an American could get a factory job to support their family. Now nearly all products are made overseas."

Let's keep the conversation going. Send us your comments to CNN.com/tony.

A stunning report this morning from a U.K.-based newspaper about a conspiracy to stop global markets from pricing oil in dollars. Christine Romans joining me from New York.

And Christine, if this is true, what could it mean for the U.S. dollar?

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Well, this is basically a really interesting report in the U.K. "Independent" that all of these Arab states, one after another, are coming out saying, no, no, no, this is not true. There have about no secret meetings between the Russians and the Chinese and the Gulf states and the Japanese to try to replace the United States currency as the language of international trade, to try to price oil, for example, in a basket of currencies except for the dollar.

So, people are really pooh-poohing this, but it's hurting the dollar. Everyone's talking about it in the markets. Every trading desk that I talk to is talking about it this morning. The dollar, as you can see, has been falling all year. And then you can see that gold hits a record high today. Gold is up. Oil is up.

So, commodities are going up, and the dollar is going down, and this is the sort of bearish, as we say in the markets, dollar trade. Now, why is the dollar as a reserve currency important? Well, it's always been kind of a reflection of the stature of the United States, frankly, as the, you know, the dominant player in global markets.

And over the past few months, several months, really, since the crisis, really, you've seen things like this U.K. "Independent" report that have started to hint that there is an appetite to shift away from the American dollar as the only reserve currency. And that gets some -- you know, these things are very technical and diplomatic and all of that, but at least in the markets today, you're seeing a little bit of movement on it.

HARRIS: How would this change from the dollar standard expressed in oil prices, how would it actually impact oil prices here?

ROMANS: Well, oil prices are going up here today right now on this report. And here's the thing. It would be difficult to do. A lot of people are saying, oh, in the very long term maybe there would be this move away, you know, from just the U.S. reserve currency.

But think about it. Everything of value is denominated in the U.S. dollar -- gold, oil, trade balances, I mean, you name it. Other countries do trade together, and everything is denominated in the U.S. dollar. It is the reserve currency, and it is the common denominator, quite frankly.

But you will hear -- and we have been hearing this. You will hear countries start to talk about doing -- Brazil and China, for example, doing deals together in their own currencies or different currencies, pushing away from the dollar. And there's some concern as well that the fiscal problems of the United States or the red ink that we're racking up, that that might hurt foreign countries' investments in the U.S. That could be a problem.

It's very complicated.

HARRIS: Yes, it is.

ROMANS: But I wanted to let you know that it's a big mover here. There's all this talk about the dollar under attack and demise of the dollar in the markets here today. The dollar is falling, but, you know, Treasury is -- Treasury Department would not comment on this, by the way. The Treasury secretary is the one who you always ask him about the dollar, and he says a strong dollar is in the best interest of the U.S. economy.

He has said that in the past and that they stand behind the dollar as a reserve currency. But they're not making any comment on this today, just referring us to those prior comments.

HARRIS: Well, Christine, it's -- just a final thought on this for me, it is more evidence that a lot of these countries, and we talk about the brick (ph) nations all the time, are galvanizing their efforts to be more competitive and push back against the dominance of the United States in financial matters.

ROMANS: It's true. It's true.

HARRIS: OK. All right.

ROMANS: But I will say that a weaker U.S. dollar benefits our exporters.

HARRIS: Yes, yes.

ROMANS: So, that actually can help our manufacturing sector. So that can be -- you never know how that plays into all the international -- careful international diplomacy around all of this.

HARRIS: That's a good point. All right, Christine, thank you. Appreciate it. See you next hour.

ROMANS: Sure. Yes.

HARRIS: Cell phone companies are going all out to get your attention. Three G, 4G. One service is mapping it all out. Take a look at CNNmoney.com.

They failed to do their jobs and cost investors billions. SEC staffers never uncovered Bernie Madoff's massive Ponzi scheme, but as our Allan Chernoff reports today, most of them are sitting pretty.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ALLAN CHERNOFF, CNN SENIOR CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The SEC's failure to find the Bernard Madoff fraud is a black eye that just won't heal.

SEN. CHARLES SCHUMER (D), NEW YORK: How the heck did this happen?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Massive, complete, total bureaucratic incompetence.

CHERNOFF: Yet while the commission gets skewered, most staffers who investigated Madoff and their supervisors have suffered few consequences. Many are enjoying successful careers.

Richard Walker led the SEC'S New York office when it missed its first good chance to catch Madoff in the early '90s. Today, Walker is general counsel of Deutsche Bank.

Among those cited in the SEC inspector general's report on the failure is one of Walker's former examiners, Demetrios Vasilakis. He now works for a New York hedge fund, Atticus Capital, as chief compliance officer.

The former SEC official who met with the Madoff whistleblower Harry Markopolos but failed to act, Grant Ward, is now senior counsel with MetLife. Markopolos told Congress he was shocked by Ward's financial illiteracy.

HARRY MARKOPOLOS, MADOFF WHISTLEBLOWER: If you pay peanuts, then you shouldn't wonder why you end up with monkeys.

CHERNOFF: And then there is the former SEC investigator who married Bernard Madoff's niece, Eric Swanson, now general counsel of stock trading firm BATS Exchange.

SEC Inspector General David Kotz found Swanson's romantic relationship did not affect the investigations, but his actions created "the appearance of a potential conflict of interest," one of many failings the inspector general uncovered.

DAVID KOTZ, SEC INSPECTOR GENERAL: The SEC never conducted a competent and thorough examination or investigation of Madoff for operating a Ponzi scheme.

CHERNOFF: And the SEC director who OKd the closing of a Madoff investigation last year, Mark Schonfeld, is now a partner at law firm Gibson Dunn & Crutcher. Arthur Levitt, chairman of the SEC during some of the failed Madoff investigations, is with the private equity investment firm Carlyle Group.

ARTHUR LEVITT, FORMER SEC CHAIRMAN: It never occurred to me or anyone on my staff that Madoff was anything except a market maker.

CHERNOFF: At least six SEC staffers who were directly involved in examining Madoff's books at his office remain at the commission, including Simona Suh.

SIMONA SUH, SEC: I have no comment.

CHERNOFF: Her supervisor's evaluation, "Simona's ability to understand and analyze the complex issues of the Madoff examination is particularly impressive."

SEN. ROBERT MENENDEZ (D), NEW JERSEY: How many have been fired because of this gross incompetence?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, I don't believe anybody has been fired.

CHERNOFF (on camera): Aside from Arthur Levitt, former and current SEC regulators declined to comment for this story. Only two high-profile SEC officials resigned after the Madoff scandal: Lori Richards, former head of the Office of Compliance Inspections and Examinations and former SEC Enforcement Chief Linda Thompson. Ms. Thompson has landed nicely; she's now a partner at law firm Davis Polk and Wardwell.

Allan Chernoff, CNN, New York.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

HARRIS: African Americans and Latinos banding together to push health care reform.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARRIS: Let's get you caught up now on our top stories. Finding the right strategy for Afghanistan, that is the hot-button issue burning on the agenda as President Obama sits with leading members of Congress to figure out the next move. Just yesterday, Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who's no stranger to war strategy, talked about it exclusively with our Christiane Amanpour at George Washington University.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HILLARY CLINTON, U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: We needed to focus on how to help the people of Afghanistan lift themselves up, have their own opportunities. And it goes hand in hand with our military efforts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: You can catch the rest of the exclusive interview with Secretary of State Clinton and Defense Secretary Robert Gates on "AMANPOUR" at 3:00 Eastern right here on CNN.

The Taliban in Pakistan is claiming responsibility for a suicide attack on a United Nations building. At least five people were killed, several others wounded yesterday when a bomber targeted the World Food Programme headquarters in Islamabad. A Taliban spokesman says relief work is, quote, "not in the interest of Muslims."

Tomorrow marks the eighth anniversary of the U.S. war in Afghanistan. We want to hear your thoughts on the war and where the U.S. should go from here. Give us a call at 1-877-742-5760 and leave us a message. We will play some of your comments live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

And thanks to those who have called already. Wow. The number again is 1-877-742-5760. Thank you.

Health care reform runs into a delay on Capitol Hill. The Senate Finance Committee had hoped to vote on its reform bill as early as today. But a cost analysis by the Congressional Budget Office isn't ready yet. Senate Finance is the last committee to finish writing health reform legislation.

Latino and African-American groups are banding together to push for health care reform. The organizations, including the National Council of La Raza, have kicked off an ad campaign in states with large minority populations.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The year I was born, they tried to reform health care. And now I'm 65 years old, and it still hasn't happened. But now, we can make this real. I'm not going to let special interests and politicians throw 46 million of us under the bus.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: Janet Murguia is president of the National Council of La Raza, and she joins us from Washington. Janet, good to see you. You know, I'm always mindful when I ask a question like this, that there may be a lot of work going on behind the scenes that just doesn't make it on television. But it seems to me that Latinos and blacks have appeared voiceless in this health care reform debate, particularly during the summer of discontent at the town hall meetings.

Do you agree with at least my perception of this? JANET MURGUIA, PRESIDENT AND CEO, NATIONAL COUNCIL OF LA RAZA: Well, I don't think that we've been voiceless. I think that there's been a smaller segment of the population that's been louder, but I think they also represent a smaller proportion of the population.

But in fact, we know that at the town halls, we had large representations but our folks tend to be, you know, wait in line, very respectful, and wait for their turn to ask questions. And I don't think you saw much of that in the town halls. But I think it's fair to say that the data shows that many in the minority communities were present at these town halls.

HARRIS: Hey, Janet, so, is it a bit disappointing to know that much of the louder commentary on health care reform is what made it onto television and not the more civilized, maybe, discussions that maybe your group was a part of?

MURGUIA: Well, we can talk about the lack of civil discourse, and I think that's a whole topic we can entertain. But if we want to talk about health care, we probably ought to focus on some of the reforms that are happening.

But there's no question that national organizations that work with community-based groups across the country, representing minority communities or communities of color, have been very active and engaged in this debate, and we've been working, I think quite strategically, to weigh in on this.

Now, it doesn't mean that this reform bill has turned out the way we want. It's got a lot more work to do. But we are weighing in, and I think it's important for us to be strategic...

HARRIS: Well, I think you're right.

MURGUIA: ... both politically on this.

HARRIS: Yes. La Raza wants a robust public option to ensure accountability and competition. That's clear. It's available for everyone to see on your Web site.

It is in -- that language is in the Senate Health Committee bill. It's not in the finance committee bill, as you know. Does your organization believe -- still believe in health reform including a government-run health insurance program, or because of the way it appears the chips are stacking up here, have you given up on that aspect of the fight?

MURGUIA: Well, I think that's one element, and it's a very important element, and for some it's more important than others. I think it's fair to say that there are a lot of elements of health care reform that have to be part of this bill, and that is one important element.

But you know, we have -- we're concerned that a lot of the communities of color, and particularly the Latino communities, are being screened out before we can even have access to any sort of public option or insurance exchange. And that's of great concern. So, for us, access to coverage, and when you have measures that are screening these folks out, we don't even get an opportunity to participate.

HARRIS: That leads me perfectly to my next question. First of all, have a listen to the Representative Joe Wilson moment, more for what the president says, and then I've got a question for you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The reforms I'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally.

REP. JOE WILSON (R), SOUTH CAROLINA: You lie!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARRIS: OK, so here's the question. I hear this so often, the worry, the concern that undocumented immigrants will figure out a way to access the co-ops or the exchange, despite what the president says and despite the best efforts at safeguards. And it seems to me that's where the "you lie" comment from Representative Wilson comes from.

Can La Raza be counted on, your organization be counted on to ensure that undocumented immigrants don't game the system and take advantage of the subsidies provided for in any reform packages?

MURGUIA: Look, none of the reform packages include extending coverage to undocumented immigrants. I don't know what it will take for folks to really be convinced of that. But none of the proposals include that.

What we want to make sure and what our focus is on is making sure that those who are lawfully present, legal immigrants and U.S. citizens, aren't denied coverage. And with so many of these onerous costly and bureaucratic verification measures that are being offered, we're finding that they're doing more harm to citizens and to those who are lawfully present than they are.

And the fact is that there's no data to show that undocumented immigrants are taking advantage of the system. In fact, many states put in verification systems with get-tough measures, and they put $40 million -- the GAO reported on this -- and they found less than $11,000 worth of abuse.

Some of this stuff just doesn't make common sense. And we need to be thoughtful and use judiciously these precious resources we have. And so, we support a system that allows coverage for lawfully present individuals like legal immigrants and U.S. citizens. And we're finding that some of these measures are keeping those folks out.

HARRIS: Well, very good. Janet, with a little more time, we might have a bit of a discussion on some of the numbers you cited there. But I appreciate your time. Thanks.

MURGUIA: Thank you, Tony. HARRIS: OK.

And as we say goodbye to Janet, we want to play the same portion of the ad from earlier in the segment again for you, this time in Spanish.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)

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HARRIS: And just another reminder, we are just 15 days away from "LATINO IN AMERICA." It is a comprehensive look at how Latinos are changing America, reshaping politics, business, schools, churches and neighborhoods. "LATINO IN AMERICA" coming October 21st and 22nd on CNN, the wordwide leader in news.

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HARRIS: OK. Here's what we're working on for next hour. The secretaries of state and defense discuss strategy in Afghanistan and the future of our troops. I'll be joined by former CNN Washington bureau chief Frank Sesno following his rare joint interview with Hillary Clinton and Robert Gates, a CNN exclusive.

Plus, credit card companies find a new way to put a financial chokehold on millions of consumers. We will introduce you to a family who got socked with a huge new bill despite having excellent credit.

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HARRIS: We continue our focus on the economy. CNN's John King takes us to North Dakota, the state with the lowest unemployment rate. Even it is struggling.

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JOHN KING, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It is hot, hard work and loud at times. The majestic soundtrack of made in America. Gwinner, North Dakota to be exact.

The Bobcat thrives only when home building booms. And North American President Rich Goldsbury says for all the talk of recovery, the housing outlook remains bleak.

RICH GOLDSBURY, PRESIDENT, BOBCAT: We see a bottoming out, but we have not even an evidence of a return to where we were a number of years ago, just two years ago. Two million housing starts down to 500,000. For our business, our industry, it's about 70 -- it's down about 70 percent from what it was back in 2005.

KING: For Bobcat, that slump means consolidation. The Bismarck assembly line that employed nearly 500 workers will shut down by year's end. Some work will be shifted, and some jobs added here in Gwinner. But by January, Bobcat projects 1,500 jobs in the state, down 100 from current levels and down 1,100 from four years ago. A sad but necessary adjustment, Goldsbury says, to evidence Bobcat's slice of the economy will be slow to rebound.

GOLDSBURY: Not even get financing for a machine, which wasn't happening before, but we haven't seen that yet translate to additional sales for us.

KING: There is other work around here. Agriculture is North Dakota's backbone, and the fall sugar beet harvest provides a jobs boost. But Bobcat is the lifeblood of tiny Gwinner, population 700.

Jeremiah Hinkemeyer runs the supermarket a stone's throw from the assembly line.

JEREMIAH HINKEMEYER, GROCERY STORE MANAGER: Three times, different times in the day during shift changes, we have Bobcat workers coming here. When I leave work, I go over to the school to coach. We wear the Bobcat logo. A lot of people here, you know, graduated high school and went to Bobcat, and they've worked there their whole life.

KING: The store is a leading indicator of the local economy. Sales slump at rumors of Bobcat troubles, and even the plan to shift work here from Bismarck isn't enough to erase the anxiety.

HINKEMEYER: The workers come in here, and you can see it in their faces if there's been talks of a layoff or talks of, you know, the company might not be staying around. I'm satisfied that they're really trying to stay here, but I think you feel from a lot of people, they're not sure yet.

KING: On the moment, Corey Essig is on the upside of the recession rollercoaster. But his family's lesson in the difficult math of unemployment is still fresh -- $351 a week was his benefit when Bobcat laid him off five months ago.

(on camera): How was the worst of that?

COREY ESSIG, BOBCAT EMPLOYEE: The worst of that?

KING: Yes.

ESSIG: I'd have to say probably paying the insurance, health insurance. Because you need it. My son has a heart condition, so can't hardly go without it.

I was paying $440 a month, and then you have to start cutting back on stuff, like your cell phones, your computers, you know, you have to start looking at shutting some of that stuff off. And, buying less food. And you have two kids to support and the wife. It's pretty trying.

KING (voice-over): But Bobcat just called Corey back to work in the paint room that requires a hooded safety suit.

ESSIG: I think that things will straighten out and be pretty steady with work, you know. I don't think -- foresee them moving the company, but you never know.

KING: Rumors of moving or shutting down are often tied to Bobcat's purchase two years ago by a Korean company. But Goldsbury says the owners are proud of their American-made product and of the company's North Dakota roots.

(on camera): And you have full confidence that if I come back in ten years, this will be here?

GOLDSBURY: Yes, I do.

KING: No hesitation.

GOLDSBURY: No hesitation. We've been here for 60 years. I don't see us going anyplace. This is where we came from. This is our bellwether plant. This is where we started the business.

KING (voice-over): John King, CNN, Gwinner, North Dakota.

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