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Joy Behar Page
Can Letterman Lose Job Over Sex Scandal?; GOP Uses Smear Tactics to Gain Political Ground; Interview With Lewis Black
Aired October 06, 2009 - 21:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Could CBS dump David Letterman over a sex scandal? Some people say it`s time for the king of late night to step off the throne.
Plus once again the Republicans are using smear tactics to gain political ground and once again it`s working.
And joining me in the studio, the always reserved and demure Lewis Black. How fabulous is he?
All that and more tonight.
Tonight some people are saying CBS should fire Letterman over the sex scandal. But no matter what people say, their ratings have been huge. And I don`t think anyone`s getting more material out of this scandal than Letterman himself. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "LATE SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": It`s fall here in New York City and I spent the whole weekend raking my hate mail. And it`s cold too. It`s chilly outside my house, chilly inside my house.
I got into the car this morning, and the navigation lady wasn`t speaking to me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s funny and he apologized to his wife, hopefully repeatedly and maybe she`ll forgive him. But others are not so quick to accept this remorse.
Joining me to discuss this and more is my good pal Lewis Black. Hi, Lewis.
LEWIS BLACK, COMEDIAN: Hi, Joy.
BEHAR: All right, first of all, he is funny.
BLACK: He is funny.
BEHAR: And wonderful how he finessed and manipulated everybody with his apologies and being funny, it`s incredible.
BLACK: Well, what`s extraordinary -- for me what was first extraordinary is I hadn`t been watching him a while and I kind of flipped it on that night and I flipped it on after that segment and it was before he was bringing on Woody Harrelson and...
BEHAR: You mean the night that he confessed?
BLACK: The night he confessed.
So all of that is not taking place, now I`m watching it and he`s going, oh here comes this guest, this must be a night that he won`t want to be here.
Now I`m switching to news channels...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...to see if something broke during the day that I should know about.
BEHAR: About something other than this...
BLACK: About -- so the next day...
BEHAR: Like they solved the Afghan war.
BLACK: Yes, but it was -- so it was really -- it was just bizarre...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...and I think the whole thing is bizarre. I think we`re like -- it`s like, do you care -- do you really care?
BEHAR: But we don`t care that much.
BLACK: But why did they do this, do I need to know this every time sex happens? It`s like sex happens somewhere, ooh, ooh.
BEHAR: I don`t want to be a scold about it because sex does happen -- in my past, sex did happen.
But -- but it`s not about harassment and sex, it`s about favoritism, that`s the part that I think is bad. Because these other girls didn`t get to go on TV and do all the things that the girl who was sleeping with him gets to do.
And the other ones are like (BLEEP). You know what I mean?
BLACK: But maybe they got other options. Maybe they got perks we don`t know about.
BEHAR: No there`s no perk like the screwing perk, I`m sorry. The screwing perk is the biggest perk.
BLACK: Well, you know, but we don`t know -- but we don`t know what the -- and maybe the other girls didn`t care.
BEHAR: They care...
BLACK: Really?
BEHAR: ...they care, Lewis, yes.
Now it`s all starting to come up people are starting to talk about all his -- whatever it is that he did. We don`t know of the details. I`m not going to go there.
BLACK: ...(INAUDIBLE) if somebody actually is still screwing.
BEHAR: I know well, that`s the thing...
BLACK: You know it`s been happening somewhere...
BEHAR: Well, it`s all about Viagra, he`s 62 years old and you know that it`s all about the medication at this point. Every guy it`s scary to go out of your house anymore because all these old guys are like looking at you and even me they`re coming on to.
BLACK: But then I`m 61 does that mean I have like a year left?
BEHAR: No, you actually owe three years.
All right, wait a minute, Andrea Peyser...
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: ...from "The New York Post"...
BLACK: She`s a genius...
BEHAR: She said he should be fired.
BLACK: Oh for...
BEHAR: Now, that`s a bit much, I think right?
BLACK: Isn`t that over the top?
BEHAR: Yes, he shouldn`t be fired. I don`t think he`s going to be fired.
BLACK: But nobody seem to get -- unless the women were complaining within the house or something that we don`t know about.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: Because -- if this had not broke, let`s face it, the real story to me was the extortion is the real story.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: The secondary story is the sex. Then there is the discussion that we can have about what occurs in a job place, if there`s that.
BEHAR: That is the only thing that I`m interested in.
BLACK: You`re not interested in...
BEHAR: I don`t care that he had sex with them.
BLACK: They don`t care about that.
BEHAR: No, we don`t...
BLACK: But what`s amazing is how big a thing that-- that we are still like -- when is this country just going to grow up?
BEHAR: I know.
BLACK: When does the maturity come? Why do I always feel like I`m in like the sixth grade and somebody showed their pee pee. What is the matter with us? We`ve had years of this.
BEHAR: Yes I know...
BLACK: There was that whole thing in the `60s. What did that go for, Joy?
BEHAR: Nothing -- it went for nothing; just a bunch of hotheads everybody still stoned. The baby boomers they`re out of it. But it`s like -- the thing about sexuality in this country is we`re a very puritanical country I think...
BLACK: We`re insane.
BEHAR: ...we`re very puritanical, about you know, birth control, abortion, all the topics that relate to sex, people are very puritanical about.
BLACK: You`re getting to the point that...
BEHAR: Yes I know.
BLACK: ...they don`t even teach sex in some places. They don`t even discuss it in the school system unless you tell the kids that it`s got to be abstinence which is like...
BEHAR: Yes, that works, that works yes.
BLACK: ...the logical response. That`s a good idea...
BEHAR: We used to call that Vatican roulette in my day.
But the French must be having a field day with all its scandals, I mean, he`s not even a politician...
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: So I mean, it`s such a big deal.
But do you think that -- how do you think his wife is handling it? And I wonder about that.
BLACK: Oh I don`t think -- I think it`s a long day for him for everything.
BEHAR: It`s a long -- his kid.
BLACK: You know that monologue must make him really, that`s the moment, it`s like you can go through as a comic, all forms of how and then you get in front of that audience for that five minutes and oh I can breathe again...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ...and then it`s back right then.
BEHAR: And then it`s back...
BLACK: It`s right into the tank.
BEHAR: I know, I know, I would not want to be there.
BLACK: Oh, boy.
BEHAR: Do you think that he`ll lose any of his female audience? Because -- I found that he has 58 percent female audience, Letterman, did you know that?
BLACK: No I didn`t know that.
BEHAR: That`s -- someone handed me that statistic. I have no idea who that person was.
BLACK: Do you believe those -- yes...
BEHAR: But still...
BLACK: Yes, exactly and I`ll tell you this, I don`t believe any of those statistics. Do you believe that when you`re on TV that they really know how many people watch? They`re lying. They`re lying.
BEHAR: Do you think so?
BLACK: They make these numbers up. Do you really think these boxes are real? And that -- people -- I mean there is -- there are I have met one Nielsen family in my entire life.
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: One.
BEHAR: Really?
BLACK: 61 years on the planet, would you think I`d run into two.
BEHAR: I know I`ve never met any Nielsen, only Leslie Nielsen is the only Nielsen I ever met.
BLACK: And it was nice and she happened to watch my show. And it had no effect.
BEHAR: Leslie Nielsen is a man. You didn`t know that?
BLACK: I knew Leslie Nielsen is a man, he`s the cop guy.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s right.
BLACK: An entertainment cop.
BEHAR: But now, did you ever have to apologize for any jokes?
BLACK: Never.
BEHAR: No, you never got in trouble for anything you ever said?
BLACK: Not -- no, nobody cares. I can say things...
BEHAR: Yes.
BLACK: ..and it`s almost as if I disappear. I will say things that appall me. And I think, I go to that next day, oh boy they`re going to catch me now.
BEHAR: And then they don`t?
BLACK: They don`t even...
BEHAR: Really, that`s interesting.
BLACK: I`m so below the radar.
BEHAR: It could be that you`re not on network television because...
BLACK: That could be.
BEHAR: ...on "The View" - when I`m on "The View" I get in trouble with the Catholic church...
BLACK: Well, that should because...
BEHAR: ...if I ever say anything about the church, well, I`m Catholic so I feel that I could say it.
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: But they don`t think so.
BLACK: Well, the Catholic Church -- I had there was something on a CD of mine that somebody found in the Catholic church, whatever is at the standard...
BEHAR: They have.
BLACK: What is the thing that they publish?
BEHAR: Oh, "The Tablet."
BLACK: The tablet...
BEHAR: Well, that`s the newspaper that the church...
BLACK: Yes I was in that, I made that.
BEHAR: You were in "The Tablet"?
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: Wow, that`s better than the New York Times.
BLACK: I was impressed that they even -- really, this guy was at home watching "The Daily Show" or something and he had a CD of mine.
BEHAR: Wow. That`s impressive. I know that guy. He makes a lot of money from the church.
We`ll be back with more Lewis Black. Don`t go away, there`s much more here.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRED ARMISEN, SATURDAY NIGHT LIFE: On my first day in office, I said I`d close Guantanamo Bay. Is it closed yet? No.
I said we would be out of Iraq? Are we? Not the last time I checked.
I said I would make improvements in the war in Afghanistan. Is it better? No, I think it`s actually worse.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s very funny, Fred Armisen. That was from "Saturday Night Live." CNN actually fact checked that sketch and found it wasn`t exactly accurate. Gee, comedy writers didn`t check their news facts. That does not happen here.
For example, the Afghanistan thing was inaccurate, but the Gitmo thing was accurate. So just FYI. Now back with Lewis Black. So has President Obama`s new car smell worn out?
BLACK: Well, for some people who are out when they walked in the voting booth to vote that day, some people were just off from the beginning.
BEHAR: Yes, but he did get over 50 percent of the vote.
BLACK: Yes and there was a big love affair, and I didn`t have the same one that the rest of the Americans -- the rest of the country did, because he was a Democrat and that was no better than even being a Republican.
BEHAR: Really? You don`t feel that one party is any better than the other?
BLACK: I think we`re in the high level of screwed.
BEHAR: But how can you say that there`s no difference after the Bush administration, which was hideous?
BLACK: Well, the difference is one administration finally found someone who can speak in a paragraph that we can stay awake through.
BEHAR: Exactly. Yes
BLACK: That`s an exciting movement forward. That`s change.
BEHAR: Yes, that`s true. That`s a big change. He`s very articulate. But he`s also smart, he`s a smart guy.
BLACK: He`s very smart and he seems to really -- he`s very comfortable in his own body, which is also like -- Bush was like somebody - - like an alien that had been placed inside the skin and you were never sure...
BEHAR: But weren`t you impressed at the way he ducked when that shoe was thrown at him? That was the most impressive day I ever looked at him.
BLACK: Yes, really. It`s the first time he showed real movement.
BEHAR: It showed movement. But I mean compared to what we had say eight years this guy was really...
BLACK: No, this was a step in the right direction.
BEHAR: Don`t you think they`re laying a lot of stuff on him to do?
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: He had a huge deficit; Bush came in with a huge surplus. This guy inherits a deficit. The economy collapses. He`s got this stupid war in Iraq going on. He`s got this other war in Afghanistan. The health care is a mess in this country, what more do you want from the guy?
BLACK: My feeling is always been the first two years is, we as a country went into -- after eight years, we really reached a level that we were comatose as a people. We were in a coma.
BEHAR: We were in a coma.
BLACK: And his job was like the doctor who comes in and goes, you know, you`re going to be able to move your finger today, you`re going to be able to move your finger just a little, it will be great. So basically it`s just a matter of like -- partly, I think there`s a stunned quality to what`s going on, in the sense that people are -- don`t hear him yet because they haven`t been talked to in eight years.
BEHAR: But you know what? The analogy of the doctor is good. So he comes in and they say, ok, I`m going to fix your finger and the Republicans are saying, we want a cure for cancer.
BLACK: We want a cure for cancer.
BEHAR: That`s basically the expectation of the guy.
BLACK: And we want you to give birth. I know you`re a man...
BEHAR: But do it anyway?
Here`s what you had to say about Obama in your new movie. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BLACK: His appeal to you is understandable because he is the first president, of certainly in my lifetime who`s filled with hope. His -- his nipples are actually bursting with hope. He is lactating hope.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: You know all that hope talk seems like a long time ago, doesn`t it now?
BLACK: It`s like history.
BEHAR: I think people are angry now. They`re more angry. They should have been angry while Bush was there, they should have been marching in the streets. But now they`re really ticked off.
BLACK: Now they have not got things to yell about because they`re going to kill grandma.
That`s the amazing -- that one got me because they said -- you know when they started to say we`ll have a death panel. We`re going to kill grandma, I go, my grandmother`s dead, I don`t care. What, are you going to dig her up and kill her again?
If you can do that, then we should have really great health care. If you can bring my grandmother back to life and kill her again, it would be really great.
BEHAR: Now you`re talking.
Did you say -- let`s just change the subject. I want to just (INAUDIBLE) because we don`t have a lot of time left, and I`m just loving you.
Have you seen Tom DeLay on "Dancing With the Stars"?
BLACK: No I would rather watch...
BEHAR: Let`s watch this. You have to.
BLACK: You`re going to force me to watch this.
BEHAR: You have to see it yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
(TOM DELAY ON DANCING WITH THE STARS)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: We hear he may be dropping out of the show tonight, it`s a real crowd pleaser.
BLACK: No, he`s not.
BEHAR: They`re loving it. The guy was indicted for an ethics violation. They don`t care, as long as he can cut a rug.
BLACK: Cut a rug in a pair of pants that I don`t -- that color`s on our visual spectrum. What color was that?
BEHAR: I have no idea what that was.
BLACK: I would rather watch -- I can`t watch the show "Dancing With the Stars," let alone Tom DeLay. I would rather watch Tom DeLay running with cars. So you put him on, and you put him in to New York. You drop him in and he has to run and that`s it.
BEHAR: What about that Pamplona -- running with the bulls?
BLACK: Running with the bulls.
BEHAR: That would be great.
BLACK: That would be -- that`s even better.
BEHAR: You know, I bet you he`s changing his image now with this "Dancing with the Stars".
BLACK: That`s the whole concept. I`m going to be making my move to that soon.
BEHAR: You are?
BLACK: Yes.
BEHAR: Why? What`s in your background.
BLACK: I`m going to infomercials.
BEHAR: What skeletons are in your closet?
BLACK: Oh, no, infomercials. I go to "Dancing with the Stars" and then just crawl into some infomercial at 11:00. You`ll turn the TV on and I`ll be selling a brush mop or something. That guy died, that Billy Mays, I`m next.
BEHAR: I know he died.
BLACK: He died. You know what are you going do?
BEHAR: He`s dead.
BLACK: Who knew that people were still doing that much cocaine? That was a shock. Check on that, somebody fact check. Get me a fact checker.
BEHAR: We have fact checkers here.
BLACK: I know, where are they? I was right.
BEHAR: You have been so fabulous to have here, Lewis.
BLACK: It`s just great.
BEHAR: Will you come back another time because I`m hoping to stay on the air?
BLACK: I will come back, I`m 12 blocks away from you.
BEHAR: 12 blocks, you can come any time?
BLACK: I`m actually in one of those apartments that are on your set, somewhere. I`ll come back next time and show everyone.
BEHAR: What are you doing exactly? Before we go, what are you doing besides this movie that you did? You`re on the road constantly. Plug something.
BLACK: My movie opens in theaters this Thursday, October 8. And it`s called "Stark Raving Black" and then I will be in Rockport...
BEHAR: Rockport.
BLACK: In Rockport, Illinois this Thursday and then in Davenport, Iowa, Sioux Falls, South Dakota, Kansas City.
BEHAR: My God, you`re like an Atlas.
You know what I`m doing this Saturday? I`ll plug myself. I`m doing a benefit in (INAUDIBLE) at your favorite theater. And you are doing one there...
(CROSS TALK)
BLACK: That`s good for you.
BEHAR: I`m going to do it to help them raise money.
BLACK: Yes, that`s what I`m doing.
BEHAR: Because the arts must survive.
BLACK: They`ve got to because we need to make -- you know, that`s our livelihood and I`m still a playwright.
BEHAR: You`re still a playwright because you write your own material. And you`re writing plays too.
BLACK: I`ve got a play again.
BEHAR: It`s fabulous.
BLACK: It`s wonderful.
BEHAR: It`s so great to see you. Thanks so much for doing this.
BLACK: Thank you.
BEHAR: "Stark Raving Black," Lewis Black`s new stand-up movie is in theaters Thursday.
And we`ll be right back after this.
BLACK: Check those facts.
BEHAR: Check them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Remember when Mel Gibson got stopped for drunk driving and started spewing anti-Semitic remarks at his arresting officers. Try to forget it because it never happened. Today Gibson`s lawyer got the DUI conviction expunged.
Here with me now to explain how that works is Judge Larry Seidlin.
Let`s take a look at what Gibson said to the cop that arrested him. He said "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." He then asked the deputy, "Are you a Jew?"
Ok, hi judge. How are you? Is this a normal procedure?
JUDGE LARRY SEIDLIN, FORMER FLORIDA STATE COURT JUDGE: What happens in the states is motions to seal, some states have motions to expunge. And it`s called non pro tunc; they`re going back in time. They`re saying that Mel Gibson completed his probation, and now they`re going to allow him to say really, it`s a fiction.
They`re going to say he can go back and plead not guilty and the court`s dismissing the charges against him. And it`s --
BEHAR: Does this mean he gets a clean slate?
SEIDLIN: It means he has a clean slate if he files an application for private employment for an educational purpose. But if he`s filling out an application and it says has your record ever been sealed, he has to state, yes, then the employer, the interviewer may say why was it sealed?
It really is something to make him feel that he`s completed his terrible turn around. He feels like now he`s been vindicated. He has the court`s good housekeeping seal of approval. It`s really just a mental thing for him.
BEHAR: But this judge had had the option not to do it. Why did he do it? Is he star struck or something?
SEIDLIN: Well, the statute provides that the thresholds -- he`s met the thresholds and he`s not on probation for any charges, he has no other crimes that he`s facing. The court does have the discretion. I signed thousands of those motions during my career.
The court could have said no. The court decided to say yes.
BEHAR: Would you have done it?
SEIDLIN: It`s a tough one. The facts, the things he said about the Jewish people of America and the Jewish people of the world is pretty harsh. I might have had him jump through some more hoops before I sign that order. But I don`t want to second guest that judge in California.
BEHAR: How often do these cases get expunged? Is this a common practice or is it rare?
SEIDLIN: It`s rare for a DUI. California provides that most misdemeanors will have their record expunged or sealed.
And it`s interesting I went to my courthouse one time because I signed a number of these orders. I wanted to see where they go, these files. These files go, if you see the "Raiders of the Lost Ark" they go into a big metal box, and there`s a big lock and they shut it tight.
But with the computer today, the Internet, you can find the charges still. And if he has to apply for a license for a lawyer, doctor, police, fire, they`re going to find out about this sealing. And also if he gets picked up for a second DUI within ten years, they can purge that, they can look into his record.
BEHAR: Thanks Judge. Judge Larry Seidlin thank you
We`ll be back in just a minute.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: The Democratic Party made huge gains in last year`s elections, but is the party over? According to a report today, 2010 may be the year of the elephant.
With me now to discuss this are Andrew Wilkow, host of "The Wilkow Majority" on Sirius XM Radio, plus Julie Mennen, host of "Give and Take" and a contributing blogger to "The Huffington Post."
Now, is the GOP, Andrew, going to win big in 2010? What do you think?
ANDREW WILKOW, HOST, "THE WILKOW MAJORITY": If they come up with the right rallying message and find somebody in the water who can be a standard bearer for the next presidential election -- there`s absolutely no guarantee that the Republicans are going to take back the House and the Senate.
There are a lot of conservatives who don`t like the way the leadership of the party is taking the party.
BEHAR: What is the leadership of the party?
WILKOW: Well, whether it be the sitting senators or the sitting congressmen who comprise the committee chairman, the fundraisers, whoever it may be that you would comprise the leadership of either party. It`s not a Republican versus Democrat.
BEHAR: No one has emerged yet from the Republican Party that looks sane enough for smart enough to lead the party.
WILKOW: I don`t think we have to use the pejoratives.
BEHAR: Why? Your side does it all the time.
WILKOW: We`re not doing that right now. You asked me a simple political question.
BEHAR: I know, but I`m saying there`s nobody who`s bright enough coming out of the party right now. I can`t see it. Do you see it?
WILKOW: I liked Mitt Romney during the last election. Most conservatives were not fans of John McCain.
BEHAR: Romney got a lot of flack because he`s a Mormon. The Republican Party may turn on him for that.
WILKOW: I don`t know about that. But I know that a lot of Republicans and conservatives held their nose when they voted for John McCain, and that`s part of the reason why he lost.
BEHAR: Poor John McCain. They say things like that about him.
JULIE MENIN, HOST, "GIVE AND TAKE": I don`t feel sorry for him.
I think the real problem that the Republicans have was the fact that only 28 percent of Americans self-identify themselves as Republicans. How can Republicans win a presidential election if they have those kinds of numbers?
I do think however Republicans are going to win some midterm seats. But that`s not a surprise. That happens all the time. Americans don`t like a concentration of power.
WILKOW: The numbers go deeper -- 40 percent of voters self-identify as conservative.
MENIN: Some of those are independents.
WILKOW: And that is absolutely true. The Democratic Party is a much bigger party. But liberals, self-identified liberals, only comprise 20 percent of that. So you have a bigger party with more factions.
And when those factions get in control, the factions tend to force some of the independent Democrats or old school Democrats more to the middle and even off to the right.
And you saw this with the election of Ronald Reagan, you saw this after Hillary-care.
(CROSSTALK)
WILKOW: I don`t think it has. I think when you look at the bigger party versus a smaller party with the voter block including independents, the biggest voting bloc in this country is conservatives.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: No, the biggest voting bloc is independents, and that`s what all the polls show. But some tend to Republican and some tend to Democratic.
BEHAR: But let`s get back to the crazies in your party, OK? Listen to Michele Bachmann answer a question about Pelosi and the blue dog Democrats. This was yesterday. Just listen to her.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will Mrs. Pelosi try to buy them off with Christmas tree ornaments the way she did with TARP, or do you think these people will stick to their guns?
REP. MICHELE BACHMANN, (R) MINNESOTA: She`ll either beat them to death, bludgeon them to death, or she`ll try to buy them off.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: What is she trying to do?
WILKOW: She`s talking politically. She`s talking about the power of the house and again the committee chairman and the things that leadership can do to dissenting members. It`s not like she`s comparing it to the holocaust or anything.
BEHAR: She`s going to bludgeon them to death?
WILKOW: Politically.
BEHAR: Why use that kind of terminology?
MENIN: That`s exactly right, this discourse that`s happening in America, I think it`s the worst that its ever been. And I think it`s really coming from the far right. You`re not seeing it come so much from the far left.
WILKOW: We saw it for eight years from the far left.
MENIN: Polls where people are saying should people kill President Obama.
WILKOW: That was a Facebook poll.
MENIN: It`s doesn`t matter. It doesn`t matter.
Who on earth is going to go into public service? I have three young boys, and I think about this all the time. They`re never going to go into politics because look what it`s become.
And the Republican Party has become the party of "No." Where`s the plan to reform health care, where is the plan to fix the economy? You can`t just say no and expect to elections. It just doesn`t work.
BEHAR: Here`s another crazy. Listen to what Iowa Republican Steve King wrote about Obama`s school safety czar. He said, "Kevin Jennings`s life work has been the promotion of homosexuality." This is the school czar. "Even in elementary schools, and he has demonstrate no qualifications to make students safer in our schools.
President Obama should fire Kevin Jennings immediately."
Now, is this a public tactic? Why are they going there? Maybe the guy is gay, is that what this is about?
WILKOW: No. It`s about the 15-year-old kid that came to him with a dilemma about having sex with an older man and Jennings saying go out and buy condoms. That`s the dilemma.
MENIN: But you can`t attack everyone for every single issue. It`s the same thing about throw Van Jones out. We cannot have attacks on public servants.
WILKOW: When Van Jones says that white environmentalists are purposely polluting the ghetto, that`s...
MENIN: You`ll never find anybody in public service who is perfect. And if we start picking apart every single statement that every single person made, we won`t have the best and the brightest in political office.
WILKOW: You`re finding the civility all of a sudden that didn`t exist during the Bush years. This complaint about Obama as the Joker. Bush was the joker too. They did the exact thing, the exact same art work.
MENIN: Yes, but Bush didn`t try to reach out to Democrats. There wasn`t that effort to try to make a bipartisan push that President Obama has.
BEHAR: Remember, he was the decider. "I`m the decider."
WILKOW: Obama is the decider now. Isn`t that part of being the president?
BEHAR: The criticism is that he`s not making a decisive move. He`s not being as decisive as Bush was, and that`s the criticism from the left to him, you know that?
WILKOW: Yes.
This, again, is a man who represents a party, and it not a Republican versus Democrat thing. It`s a bigger party with more factions. And it`s harder to heard all those captains to one place and come out on top.
MENIN: I don`t agree with that at all. If you look at the Republican Party, you`ve got pro-choice Republicans, you`ve got moderate Republicans, you`ve got evangelical Republicans. The party is just as big and you have just as many factions within that 28 percent.
WILKOW: I don`t think they have factions as nearly as vocal and aggressive as you see in the Democratic Party.
BEHAR: Let`s watch another thing. Arizona Republican Trent Franks had a good one too. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
REP. TRENT FRANKS, (R) ARIZONA: Obama`s first act as president of any consequence, in the middle of a financial meltdown, was to send taxpayers` money overseas to pay for the killing of unborn children in other countries. He has no place in any station in government and we need to realize that he`s an enemy to humanity.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: These are very inflammatory statements to be coming from the right from Obama. We did not hear these things when Bush was in office.
WILKOW: You heard it the other day from Alan Grayson from Florida. He said this is the holocaust if we don`t pass this.
MENIN: I totally disagree with that. What he was saying is basically it is do or dying on health care. People are dying in this country because they do not have health care.
WILKOW: So nobody dies under socialized medicine? Everybody lives?
MENIN: First of all, what he was saying...
BEHAR: No.
MENIN: You`re intimidated by the pin. The American flag pin, you can`t say anything unpatriotic. But what he was saying is that basically we have to...
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: The thing about the pin is if a Democrat goes on the air and he`s not wearing a pin, he`s considered unpatriotic. The Republicans have decided, oh, yes, you have to wear the pin.
WILKOW: This is my one suit. For me personally I have one suit that I keep at the Sirius studio, and when I come to programs like "The Joy Behar Show," I pull it out of the closet and put it on. It`s the pin is always there.
MENIN: Next we`re going see the hat, we`re going to see the t-shirt. I feel like we can`t even talk about Afghanistan because Republicans are saying how can you leave Afghanistan? This is exactly what has happened is the Republicans are saying they are the party of the patriots.
WILKOW: Democrats believed in the effort in Afghanistan from the beginning. It was Iraq they didn`t want.
BEHAR: They should have gone into Afghanistan in the first place. So Democrats are now saying, hey, we don`t know what to do now. We should have gone in then. We spent all our money and bloodshed on Iraq, and everybody`s angry about that. We`ll get to that another time.
WILKOW: Another time.
BEHAR: Thank you so much for coming on, flag pin and all.
When we come back, Mel Gibson is back in the news. God help us.
BEHAR: Today a judge in Beverly Hills granted Mel Gibson`s request to expunge his DUI conviction as he has completed his three-year conviction.
Allow me to refresh. Malibu police pulled Mel Gibson over in 2006 because his car was weaving all over Malibu. He was drunk and raving about the Jews, and not raving in a good way. In fact, what he said was the Jews were responsible for starting all the f-ing wars in the world, and then he asked the cop if he was Jewish.
Why did he do that? Did he need a suggestion for a bar mitzvah gift? Was he looking all over L.A. for a good knish? No. Mel Gibson is what we used to call in the old neighborhood an anti-Semite, and an f-ing one at that.
As far as the DUI being expunged, let me say this to you -- you can run, but you can`t hide. You`re famous, and not necessarily for being a movie star. More people saw your mug shot than your last three movies combined.
I can understand you want a do-over, who doesn`t? Look, I wish I had never eaten those first ten cannolis, but I can`t have them expunged from my thighs.
(LAUGHTER)
I wonder if that judge does liposuction.
(LAUGHTER)
Here`s a career suggestion for you if you want to make peace with the Jews, and who doesn`t?
(LAUGHTER)
Do a remake of "Yentl," only in your case, call it "Mental."
That`s just me.
(LAUGHTER)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: Beauty pageants are as American as fast food and runaway capitalism. But now kids as young as two weeks old are competing for tiaras and cash in beauty pageants all over the country.
Joining me to discuss this are Susan Anderson, photographer and author of "High Glitz, the Extravagant World of Child Beauty Pageants," Simon Dunan, creative director of Barney`s New York store, and Mickie Wood, a pageant mother featured on TLC`s "Toddlers and Tiaras." Welcome everybody.
Let me start with you, Mickie. Do you get a lot of heat for putting your daughter in child`s beauty pageants, Mickie?
MICKIE WOOD, MOTHER OF CHILD BEAUTY CONTESTANT: Yes, we get some. But with anything you got to take the positive and the negative. And I knew that going into it.
It kind of snowballed into more than what I thought it was going to snowball into. I never dreamed that it would become so successful. She has her own Facebook page, a fan`s page on Facebook, and we have our own film that we`re filming, which is what I wanted to start out with was get her used to being in the public eye and then as he got older, if she wanted to continue in pageants, that was fine, but if she didn`t, at least it gave her the foundation for her to be so timid or she tended to be that way.
But we don`t have to worry about that because she`s not timid or shy.
BEHAR: Some people say these kids in beauty pageants grow up to be insecure. What do you think about that?
WOOD: Well Joy, I`m sure that you know there`s always somebody that has something to say about everything. I don`t worry about it.
I raise my daughter, my husband and I and my mother how we see fit. And pageants are such a small part of our lives. It`s a hobby. It just so happens that we`ve gotten a lot of press of good publicity.
I think the good outweighs the bad completely, and I`ve got to do what I feel is right for my child.
BEHAR: Let me show the audience a picture of your daughter here, she`s cute. There she is. Now she`s only four years old.
I know you were a former beauty queen yourself, and I don`t know how far you got in the beauty queen business, but do you have any feeling that you`re living vicariously through this child?
WOOD: If I was 25 I might say yes, but I`ll 45 years old, and I can`t believe I just said that on national TV. But I will be 45 years old next week.
And so I have done all kinds of things. I`ve traveled, sang with bands, done a lot of things, traveled around the United States. I wasn`t going to have any children. I teach school and my husband and I went on a cruise at 39 and three quarters and came back with little Eden, and she has just been like a gift from god.
BEHAR: Let me interrupt you for a second, because I was reading that you spent $70,000 on her career so far. That`s a lot of money to spend on a four-year-old child`s career. I hope that you`re also saving money for college. Are you?
WOOD: Yes, ma`am. We have got all that taken care of.
And again, that`s another perk. At this point in our life, we have so much of our stuff that`s already paid for, taken care of. And I think everybody`s kind of focused on that $70,000, but if you sat down and figure figured up for your little league team how much you`ve spent, et cetera.
BEHAR: Let me talk to my panel. Take a look at this picture. This is a little girl, a young little girl. Now Dan Rather has referred to these kinds of pageants as "kiddy porn." Do you think they`re kiddy porn - - Simon?
SIMON DOONAN, POP CULTURE COMMENTATOR: People tend to want to see something very sinister and disturbing in child pageants. And I wrote the introduction to Susan`s book. And to me, they`re just enormously playful.
And I think best-case scenario, they actually teach kids a certain amount of endurance and resilience. And to me they`re no more sinister than cheerleading or little league. There`s something very playful about it, and I quite frankly, Joy, I`m very jealous.
BEHAR: You`re jealous of them?
DOONAN: I`m jealous that my childhood, post war England, I wasn`t learning to twirl a baton and glue on eyelashes and wear sparkly clothes. I would have loved to have been in a child pageant.
BEHAR: So as a little boy you would have liked do that.
DOONAN: I was bored to death staring out at the rain. I would have loved to learn...
BEHAR: So you think this is some kind of entertainment for these children?
DOONAN: Yes. And I think we all tend to see something sinister in it, we can all see something sinister in it.
BEHAR: It`s dressed up like adults is what it is. You took that picture of your child at 18 months. What`s the purpose of this picture? Why dress these children up like...
SUSAN ANDERSON, PHOTOGRAHPER: She was at the pageant and she sat in front of the camera.
BEHAR: I mean, what is the purpose of these pageants to make little girls seem like adults? To me it seems to sexualize them a little bit.
ANDERSON: You know, I think it`s a great subject for photography, which is why I`ve pursued it. I didn`t even set out in the beginning to photograph child pageants.
I was researching beauty pageants as a subject for photography for a personnel project, and I stumbled upon a child pageant site. And on a whim wrote an e-mail to the director and there I was at my first child pageant.
So I went into it without really having thought much about it, really, or researched it, and just started from a photographer`s point of view, from an artist`s point of view, taking the photographs.
BEHAR: I see. But one of the things I was reading, these pageant girls -- we`re going to come back. I have to ask you this one question. Hang in there. Thanks for Mickie Wood for joining us. I`ll be back with more with my panel in a bit.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: OK, are you ready?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Close your eyes and close your mouth.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: One, two, three. Close your eyes.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn back around. Now turn.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Come on.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It`s OK. It`s OK. Turn around, now wipe it off your back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That`s a clip if TLC`s "Toddlers in Tiaras."
Back with my panel discussing a polarizing cultural phenomenon, child beauty pageants.
First of all, they`re spraying the kid with tanning stuff. It`s sort of abusive. That kid did not look like she`s enjoying it. I`m sorry, I don`t think it`s so great.
DOONAN: I think it`s easy to look at that and think there`s some kind of abusive scenario going on.
BEHAR: Yes.
DOONAN: But I think children are naturally exhibitionistic. And when you see a pageant, when you see these incredible photographs that Susan`s done, you see this natural exhibitionism. That children`s desire for attention is a very adaptive part of their personalities.
BEHAR: They may want attention, but not necessarily in these sexualized outfits.
DOONAN: I don`t get the sexualized bit. I don`t know what you`re seeing.
BEHAR: Well, I`ve looked through the book and a lot of these kids look like grown-up girls. They look like Miss America and they`re like 18 months old.
ANDERSON: I think they`re emulating Miss America, right? It is a pageant, it`s child pageants. I think that`s the role model, you know, they`re going to work their way up to Miss America.
BEHAR: The other thing, though, is they wear fake tans, fake teeth. Doesn`t it sort of give the message to these kids that you`re not really beautiful the way you are? Already, we`re doing basically plastic surgery on little kids that are four years old. I think it`s a bit much. Let them work for the Botox.
DOONAN: I just have this deep-seeded feeling that a pageant kid, just like the beauty queen, they`re not the one who ends up huffing glue in the parking lot or doing crack. They`re the one who ends up married to a local businessman or doing the weather, or like yourself, a successful TV personality. You were a pageant girl.
BEHAR: When I was a kid, I was very funny as a kid, and I was always making people laugh. But there was never any feeling that I was being sexualized in any way.
DOONAN: I don`t see the sexual thing. To me, if anything, the children are made to make look like dolls. I don`t get the sexual things.
BEHAR: You don`t see it?
ANDERSON: There`s the fairy tale princess, there`s the sparkles and the pink and the glitter and everything.
DOONAN: I equate it more with toys and dolls and fantasies.
BEHAR: Here`s a kid in a bikini, OK? That is a kid in a little bikini.
ANDERSON: They wear swimsuits in pageants too.
BEHAR: But she`s also wearing makeup and she`s got the housewives from New Jersey hairdo.
(LAUGHTER)
DOONAN: I think you`re jealous.
BEHAR: She`s five years old.
I`m jealous? Don`t project, Simon, you know it`s you who`s jealous.
So you don`t see anything wrong with this?
ANDERSON: But the other girl in that same spread was wearing a fish costume.
BEHAR: I think more like a sexy fish costume. Some of it looks like Halloween costumes.
DOONAN: A lot of it looks like Madame Alexander dolls to me.
BEHAR: But they`re not dolls, they`re human children. They`re not dolls, you know? Look at this? Look at this one. That is a sexualized pose of a child, I`m sorry.
DOONAN: Two words for you, Shirley Temple. She was like a child pageant -- she was this tall, this young, tiny, tiny. People said, oh, she exploited. She became a senator, for Christ`s sakes. Hello?
BEHAR: Yes, but she also felt there were old men coming on to her. I read her book.
Simon, Susan, thanks for joining me tonight and thank you for watching. Goodnight, everybody. Tune in tomorrow.
END
