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White House Considers Strategic Options in Afghanistan; Health Care Bill to be Voted On in the Senate; Plus-Size Models Gracing the Cover of 'Glamour' Magazine

Aired October 10, 2009 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

BETTY NGUYEN, CNN ANCHOR: From the CNN Center, this is the CNN NEWSROOM. it is Saturday, October 10th. Good morning, everybody. Thanks for joining us. I'm Betty Nguyen. And you are?

DREW GRIFFIN, CNN ANCHOR: I am early. Drew griffin in for T.J. 10:00 a.m. in Atlanta., 7:00 a.m. in Seattle.

President Obama mulling over his options in Afghanistan. We'll look at that, considering troop strength, whether to reduce, focus on the Taliban. We'll help you understand the road ahead from military and diplomatic perspectives.

NGUYEN: And this -- plus-size models, they are gracing the pages of "Glamour" magazine. We'll talk with one of the models and her mother, supermodel Beverly Johnson.

GRIFFIN: We begin with a look at some of the top stories we're following this morning. Gunmen attack a Pakistani army headquarters checkpoint today killing six guards. Four gunmen were killed and two escaped.

Military officials say the Taliban are claiming responsibility. It was the third major attack in a week. A suicide bomber killed at least 49 people yesterday in Peshawar. Monday, five workers were killed in an attack on a U.N. food program right in Islamabad.

NGUYEN: Police now say a Pennsylvania man killed himself after shooting his wife to death while she chatted with a friend on a web cam. Melanie Hain made headlines, you may recall, last year when she brought a handgun to her five-year-old daughter's soccer game.

Police say she was talking to a friend via web cam yesterday when her husband shot her several times. Authorities say he then killed himself.

GRIFFIN: Talk about reality TV -- the former Brazilian state legislator and TV show host is accused of ordering killings to boost his crime show's ratings. Wallace Souza now in police custody after four days on the run.

Police say Souza worked as a drug dealer on the side and ordered murders of his rivals. Souza, of course, denying the accusations.

NGUYEN: Straight out of a movie, my goodness. We'll continue to follow that story. But this one is a big one, big story we've been following actually every day for the past couple months here. A key moment, though, may come for health care reform. That being on Tuesday. That's when the Senate finance committee votes on a proposal that may have the best shot at bipartisan support.

Is the debate though finally over, as the president says it is this weekend? Kate Bolduan joins us live at the White House. And Kate, the president seems pleased with what he's hearing from Capitol Hill about health care reform, but is the administration -- what is that doing to push it forward, because we're in that final stretch now it seems?

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It sure does seem that, Betty. And really the president is doing just that. He's trying to push the debate forward, trying to continue to make his pitch for health care reform.

In his weekly radio and Internet address, the president says that reform efforts, quote, "have gathered momentum," and that he says he sees that there is unprecedented consensus building in health care overhaul in Congress right now.

He took the opportunity, as well, in this address to highlight a Congressional Budget Office cost analysis of the Senate finance proposal to say he thinks that this shows the reform is gaining steam. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It will bring greater security to Americans who have coverage with new insurance protections. And by attacking waste and fraud within the system, it will slow the growth and health care costs without adding a dime to our deficits.

This is another milestone on what's been a long, hard road towards health insurance reform.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: The CBO estimates that the Senate finance committee proposal you talked about at the very top, that it will cost $829 billion over ten years eventually, but eventually they say it will reduce the national deficit by $80 billion, the president highlighting that today.

But speaking for the Republican study, Senator George Lemieux out of Florida, he says in the Republican address that simply they're not convinced. Republicans remain very concerned about costs, about new taxes and fees, and about cuts in care that they think will come with these health care proposals. Listen here.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. GEORGE LEMIEUX, (R) FLORIDA: At a time when Americans are struggling to make ends meet and the country's debt continues to rise, we should not be raising taxes and we should not be undertaking any proposal which will increase the debt our children will have to pay.

We should especially not be doing these things when the proposals being debated are likely to raise your health insurance costs, not lower them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: The Senate finance committee is set to vote on their plan, their proposal, Tuesday, as we mentioned. And this is seen as the only plan so far that has enough potential of gaining any Republican support at this point -- Betty?

NGUYEN: All right, so let's shift gears for a second and we're going to move from health care reform to the issue of human rights, because tonight the president is speaking on that issue, specifically about same-sex rights.

And this is key because there are a lot of people within the gay community that really feel like the president needs to make good on some of his promises.

BOLDUAN: Absolutely. This is something we're definitely keeping an eye on for just that reason.

President Obama is speaking at the Human Rights Campaign. It's an annual dinner tonight. He'll be the headlining speaker, as you can imagine. And he's the only the second sitting president to speak before this group, the other president being President Clinton.

And he will be addressing the gay and lesbian community at this gala, and we're told he will touch on a range of topics, one of them being the hate crimes bill that's making its way through Congress. This is a bill that would make violent acts, violent crimes against the gay and lesbian community a federal crime.

President Obama has strongly supported that, and his spokesperson says he looks forwards to signing that legislation as soon as it makes it to his desk.

At the very same time, we're also keeping an eye on this speech tonight because the gay and lesbian community strongly backed the president, but they have also spoken out to say they are impatient and they're disappointed that he hasn't delivered on some of their priorities. We'll be listening for that tonight, too.

NGUYEN: Yes, we will. We'll be carrying that speech live 8:00 p.m. eastern, so definitely want to stay tuned for that. Kate Bolduan, as always, we do appreciate it.

BOLDUAN: Thanks, Betty.

NGUYEN: When a health care bill heads to the president, could it include a public option after all? We'll take a look at that a little bit later this hour -- Drew? GRIFFIN: Betty, the violence against U.S. soldiers is increasing. The ranks of the Taliban also growing in numbers. Add it all up, and you get a call for more boots on the ground in Afghanistan from the generals who are fighting that war.

According to a new poll, though, America is split whether to send more troops. Retired Brigadier General Mark Kimmitt joins us from Washington.

And General, the generals on the ground want more troops to win this war that you sent us there to win, but it looks like we're hearing from Washington maybe the strategy and maybe the goal is changing.

BRIGADIER GENERAL MARK KIMMITT, (RET) U.S. ARMY: Well, that's true. And what General McChrystal has asked for are the number of troops he feels are commensurate with the objectives laid out in the president's march announcement.

But now what is going on is a strategy review to reexamine those first principles on our strategy and decide on a way forward from here, which may or may not include the same requirement for troops that general McChrystal has asked for.

GRIFFIN: If, general, in your opinion, if the goal changes, if we don't want to defeat the Taliban but we just want to go after Al Qaeda, should we be there at all with a troop presence that would be lingering there in numbers less than their commander wants, their general on the ground wants?

KIMMITT: Well, again, if the bar is lowered, if the objectives are reduced, that will require a different number of troops.

I don't believe that General McChrystal is challenging the premises of the strategy review going on now. What he has said is the number of troops I need is "x" for "y" number of missions. If we reduce the number of missions below that to simply counterterrorism strategy, I'm going to need less.

That said, I personally don't believe a courant terrorism strategy alone would be successful as being envisioned by some.

GRIFFIN: You believe that the Taliban and the terrorists, I'm separating the two here just for our conversation, both need to be defeated.

KIMMITT: As part of a larger counterinsurgency strategy, as part of a strategy which sets up to achieve the objectives of making Afghanistan a stable country, a friend in the region, not a source of instability, not a direct threat to the United States of America, being a sanctuary or safe haven for terrorism, my view is if we scale back our objectives, we run the risk of destabilizing Afghanistan, making it a sanctuary for terrorism, and possibly destabilizing Pakistan, as well.

GRIFFIN: We're told this is being a very thoughtful review. It's taking time. There are a lot of high-level meetings. But is there danger to the mission and is there danger to our soldiers in the extended period of time this seems to be taking to make a decision?

KIMMITT: I don't believe so. In fact, this is taking a much shorter period of time than the Iraq strategy review in 2006. That started in September and wasn't completed until President Bush made a speech in January.

So, it is important for thoughtful, serious analysis by a team of professional security and foreign policy specialists to give the best advice to the president. We don't want to rush to failure. America wants to do this right. I believe the administration wants to do this right, and that takes time.

GRIFFIN: And in your view, doing it right, what does a win mean? When we win in Afghanistan, what is it going to look like?

KIMMITT: I think it's going to be a country that can stand on its own, is not a sanctuary for terrorism, will not allow Al Qaeda back in, and the country has somewhat a reasonable modern view of the world. It doesn't oppress women, chop off arms, is not an extremist type of government.

It's a country that can stand on its own as a member of the family of nations.

GRIFFIN: And does that mean the Taliban has no political role in the future Afghanistan you're talking about?

KIMMITT: I don't think so. What that means is that those that Taliban that want to be part of a process representative of the country of a whole, they can be embraced. Those Taliban that seek extremism and violence, they need to be separated.

We need to separate the reconcilables from the irreconcilables. But there is a place for peaceful, moderate Taliban to be part of the political process in Afghanistan.

GRIFFIN: General, thank you so much for the conversation. We shouldn't forget that while we're debating all this here in the comfort of the U.S., there are soldiers over there waiting to figure out what they are going to be doing as they carry out their mission. So a lot on the line here. General, thank you.

We've looked at Afghanistan from the military side. Up next, the terrorism angle. Two scholars are going to join us to talk about the threat there and, Betty, here.

NGUYEN: Looking forward to that.

KIMMITT: And also, the power of a tsunami. Do you need some proof of it? Well, check this out. We have some fresh images of the waves crashing in American Samoa. You see a little bit of it there. You'll have to wait for the full video. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK) GRIFFIN: Continuing our conversation now on the Afghan war, the role in it. We have two distinguished scholars joining us this morning, Paul Pillar, a former CIA counterterrorism official, his book, "Terrorism and U.S. Foreign Policy" -- Paul, did I say your last name right?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, you did.

GRIFFIN: Good.

Steve Simon, adjunct senior fellow for Middle Eastern studies for the council on foreign relations. Gentleman, thank you both. Your latest book, "Sacred Age of Terror."

Paul, let me begin with you. You may have heard the general's comments. There's been a steady increase of Taliban fighters in the last few years, with the number in the range of about 25,000 people. Do we have to defeat the Taliban to defeat the terrorism threat? And is that what we should be concentrating on in Afghanistan?

PAUL PILLAR, FORMER CIA COUNTERTERRORISM OFFICIAL: In my judgment, no. The Taliban is a reprehensible movement by the standards of everything that the United States represents. They were and probably still are in ally in important ways of Al Qaeda.

But the Taliban is a very insular movement that has focused on political and social structure in Afghanistan. They don't have an interest in the transnational terrorism that we identify with Al Qaeda.

So, the main issue, as I see it, facing the president and the Congress with regard to Afghanistan today is do we have to stabilize Afghanistan, including a defeated Taliban, in order to make it worthwhile to expend the blood and treasure that a counterinsurgency would require? In my judgment, it would not.

GRIFFIN: Steve, your response to that? Do you buy into that? We don't have to defeat the Taliban to defeat the terrorist threat to the U.S.?

STEVE SIMON, FORMER NATIONAL SECURITY COUNCIL OFFICE: I agree with you -- I agree with Paul, rather. Afghanistan strikes me as largely a sidebar to the war on terrorism at this stage of the game.

To the extent that there have been really major or shocking terrorist conspiracies or actual attacks, they seem to have come from places like Pakistan, which might well be destabilized by the U.S. war in Afghanistan.

So, you know, I guess on balance I think Paul is right. We need to be focusing elsewhere if our concern is terrorism.

GRIFFIN: So, if you two guys were advising the president -- and I'll begin with you, Paul -- he's trying to decide what to do, clearly he's not quite sure what to do -- would you be telling him, hey, let's get out of Afghanistan? Let's leave it to the Afghans to figure out their future and take these troops and bring them home or put them elsewhere to hunt Al Qaeda?

PILLAR: We have to deal with what's politically feasible. And as Mr. Gibbs, the White House spokesman made clear and as the president himself has made clear, pulling out of Afghanistan at least precipitously, is simply not on the table for a number of political reasons we could go into.

I think the sort of position that's been identified in the news with Vice President Biden of maintaining a more or less constant level of troops while focusing on the counterterrorism issue is probably what I would identify with.

But let's be frank. There's no good solution here. There are only a number of options, no one of which is immune from being criticized.

GRIFFIN: Steve, let me just jump in here and ask you, then. If we're going to leave troops there for politics, not that they're not doing good work, but they're also targets. So, are we creating troop strength that makes these soldiers, makes our soldiers, U.S. citizens, sitting ducks over there?

SIMON: Well, I think casualties are going to be a function of the intensity of military operations. If the U.S. embarks on a full- fledged counterinsurgency strategy that General McChrystal has in mind, they're going to be a lot more active. And if the surge in Iraq is a good precedent for understanding this, then casualties are going to go up.

So, we need to be prepared for that. You know, compared to other wars like Iraq or Vietnam, the casualties are as of now low.

But I hasten to add that I don't think troops will be left in Afghanistan purely for political purposes or some kind of expediency. There's a disagreement about strategy, but no matter what strategy you choose, there needs to be some degree of military commitment to Afghanistan to carry it out.

GRIFFIN: Gentlemen, I think we'll have to leave it there. Paul Pillar and Steve Simon, thanks for joining us. Easy to see, guys, why these meetings are lasting so long at the White House with so many twists and turns in the Afghan strategy. Thanks guys.

PILLAR: Thanks.

SIMON: Thanks.

NGUYEN: Here's something that's not really a news flash. Women have curves. Right? No surprises about that.

But "Glamour" magazine's November issue celebrates that fact. We'll talk to one of the models and her supermodel mom about the significance of a photo spread that we're about to show you.

We got it? OK, maybe not. We're going to show you this, though, right now, a video of a school bus swept by a flood of water after a storm just poured into the Midwest. Everyone is fine, but is there more severe weather like this on the way? We're going to check in with Reynolds Wolf.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: We'll check our top stories right now.

CNN has learned that two more people being questioned in the alleged terror plot involving Afghan national Najibullah Zazi. Police have searched the apartment of the Bosnian immigrant in Queens, New York. They've also questioned a taxi driver living in Queens.

Zazi is charged with conspiring to use weapons of mass destruction.

Crews hope to recover the bodies of 11 people killed after a United Nations plane went down in a remote area of Haiti near the Dominican Republican border. The victims are from Jordan. Here's a map of that area. They were part of a peacekeeping force that has been in the country since 2004.

And we want you to take a look at these pictures of the tsunami that hit American Samoa last month. Looks like a regular parking lot. Not so much right about now.

The FBI released this video on Friday. It's from a surveillance camera at an office on the island. Look at those cars getting washed away. The water throws SUVs and cars around like they're just toys.

The waves hit less than a half an hour after a powerful earthquake in the ocean. More than 180 people were killed -- not in that particular parking lot but as a result of the tsunami.

GRIFFIN: That is amazing, the second floor shot from the FBI office.

NGUYEN: And we were talking earlier -- if you're not on the beach and you don't see the water recede and you're inland, you don't know the tsunami is going to come and just wash your vehicle away while you're sitting in your office.

(WEATHER REPORT)

GRIFFIN: Switching gears here, witnesses say rifles blazing overnight. There was a brazen attack on a military checkpoint.

NGUYEN: And Tuesday is the day finally for a critical vote on health care reform. What can we expect, and what surprises might be in store?

GRIFFIN: But first, cashing in on frequent flyer miles for flights can be challenging, but there are tricks of the trade. CNN's Melissa Long finds out how to make the most of your miles "on the go."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MELISSA LONG, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Maximize your frequent flyer miles by playing it smart.

SARAH KANTROWITZ, TRAVEL AND LEISURE: If you're considering buying a certificate with miles, do your math. If you find a particularly great fare, it might make sense to pay in cash and to save your miles for when prices go up.

LONG: Some airlines like Delta and United offer programs that allow you to combine miles and cash if a flight. But be sure to read the fine print before redeeming your miles.

KANTROWITZ: There are plenty of great deals using frequent flyer miles but be aware that there are often restrictions.

LONG: Check in with your airline for the guidelines on upgrading seats and sharing miles, and arm yourself with information.

KANTROWITZ: Points.com is a great resource for learning about earning, buying, and selling miles. And if your miles are about to expire, be aware they can be used for hotel stays, home improvement purchases, and more.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: Just a few weeks ago some political observers thought any significant health care reform was DOA -- dead on arrival. But this Tuesday there will be a vital vote in the Senate, and Democratic supporters of the proposal think momentum may finally be on their side.

Paul Steinhauser is CNN's deputy political director and he joins me now live from Boston this morning. All right Paul, let's get to this. Exactly what happens on Tuesday?

PAUL STEINHAUSER, CNN DEPUTY POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, the Senate finance committee, Betty, they're going to vote on this bill they've been working on for health care reform. It sounds like we've been talking about the Senate finance committee for months, maybe years.

NGUYEN: Forever.

STEINHAUSER: Yes, forever. But seriously, this is the last of five congressional panels that is working on health care reform. Four of the committees passed their bills but they were much more expensive bill and there was no Republican support.

So there was thought that this finance committee could be the only one that get some Republican support. That's why we're really going to keep a close eye on Tuesday's vote to see if any Republicans on the committee say yes to this bill.

NGUYEN: You've been talking about the Republican support, but let's talk about the Democrats. Are they actually a little bit upbeat about this possible reform and the progress of it?

STEINHAUSER: Yes, well, Democrats and others in support of health care reform got a big boost this past week when they got the price tag on this bill from the Congressional Budget Office, that is a nonpartisan group.

It came in a little lower than expected, which is good news for those who don't want to pass this bill, $829 billion over ten years. But they say it will reduce the budget deficit by $81 billion.

So we'll keep a close eye on this vote to see if any Republicans, maybe Olympia Snowe, votes yes. We'll see.

The other question is, this bill does not have the public option, that government option ...

NGUYEN: That's what the president really wanted in there, too.

STEINHAUSER: Exactly. It is not in this bill, though. And that may, may lead some liberal Democrats to have some problems with it. We'll see.

NGUYEN: All right, speaking of some problems, you know, you say it could possibly reduce the deficit by $81 billion. That's a whole lot of money. What about the GOP's take on that and this vote?

STEINHAUSER: Yes. Well, we've already seen some statements from Republicans criticizing this bill even after the Congressional Budget office report. So, we don't expect a lot of Republican support, if any, for this bill.

This bill, why are we talking so much about this one bill? Because it's probably going to be the model for what may eventually come out of Congress -- Betty?

NGUYEN: Paul Steinhauser, as always, we do appreciate it. Thanks so much. See you a little bit later.

STEINHAUSER: Thank you.

GRIFFIN: Well, some people wait in long lines at health clinics for the new H1N1 flu vaccine. There's still a lot of skepticism even though health officials say it's safe.

Results from a recent Harvard study show this -- 40 percent of adults say they're not absolutely sure they're going to get the vaccine. About half of the parents surveyed say they don't know they're going to get it for their kids.

Two big reasons cited, safety. People are concerned about a mercury preservative found in some of the vaccines. Critics say that could cause autism, although it's never been proven.

And other people say they're just going to gamble because they don't think they're going to get sick. However, there's more proof of just how dangerous this flu is -- 76 children have died from it since April, 19 of them this past week. That's according to the Centers for Disease Control and prevention. Health officials say the H1N1 virus is now widespread in 37 states and young children are part of the group most at risk.

Well, his message -- save the sharks.

NGUYEN: Yes, pretty ironic, though, considering that one almost killed him. Shark survivor still ahead right here on CNN newsroom.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRIFFIN: More trouble in Pakistan. A Pakistani military official says the Taliban are claiming responsibility for an attack today at an army headquarters. The attack was on a checkpoint in Rawalpindi.

CNN's Reza Sayah is in Islamabad with details.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

REZA SAYAH, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: When it comes to militant attacks, they don't get any more audacious and brazen than this one.

On Saturday, militants attacking the heart of Pakistan's security apparatus, military officials telling CNN at least six heavily armed men, all of them wearing camouflage uniforms, tried to penetrate army headquarters in Rawalpindi just outside the federal capital of Islamabad.

According to officials, the six men in a minivan approached a check post right outside the main gate and opened fire, killing several security guards.

Officials say they managed to race past the first check post and came up to a second check post. Another fierce gunfight ensued. That's where the militant were stopped, according to army officials, but not before six military personnel were killed and four militants were killed, as well.

The incident in Rawalpindi comes 24 hours -- one of the deadliest suicide attacks ever in Pakistan, 49 people killed in Peshawar when a suicide attacker detonated explosives in a busy marketplace.

On Monday this week, you had another suicide attack in the federal capital of Islamabad, that attacker also wearing a military uniform when he targeted the offices of the U.N.'s World Food Program.

These attacks clearly show a heightened determination and heightened planning on the part of the militants.

But the Pakistani government not backing down on Saturday, once again announcing that another major military offensive against the Taliban is coming soon, this time targeting south Waziristan, a Taliban stronghold, and what Washington calls a safe haven for Al Qaeda.

Reza Sayah, CNN, Islamabad.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GRIFFIN: Reza taped that about 90 minutes ago. Since then we've been getting new information from the Associated Press. Those two terrorists, I guess you would call them, that were missing and presumed to have gotten away, may be inside that camp and holding hostages.

That is according to the AP, that those two gunmen actually are inside the compound and holding hostages. Reza is now working that angle of the story.

But that attack happened at the military post in Rawalpindi far from over at this point. It's breaking news right now in Pakistan.

NGUYEN: We'll continue to follow that. But in the meantime, let's get you some top stories right now.

Police say a Pennsylvania man killed himself after shooting his wife to death while she chatted with a friend on a web cam. Melanie Hain made headlines last year when she brought a handgun to her five- year-old daughter's soccer game.

Police say she was talking to a friend via web cam Wednesday when her husband, Scott Hain, shot her several times. Authorities say he then killed himself.

GRIFFIN: Rescuers have pulled six survivors from mudslides in the Philippines. They've also recovered more bodies. Flooding and resulting landslides unleashed from tropical depression Parma have killed almost 200 people there.

NGUYEN: President Obama scheduled to speak tonight at the Human Rights Campaign dinner Washington. He's only the second president to address the group, the largest gay rights organization in the country.

Now, some gay rights supporters have criticized the president's commitment to the gay community in his first months in office, most notably on the military's "don't ask, don't tell" policy. You'll see the president's speech live 8:00 p.m. eastern right here on CNN.

GRIFFIN: It is the next wave perhaps of flat-screen TVs, big, light weight, and flexible. And you could soon have it in your home. CNN's Jacqui Jeras looks at the technology in today's "Technofile."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JACQUI JERAS, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The 2002 movie "Minority Report" depicts a futuristic shopping mall where every nook and cranny is crammed with video screens pitching their product.

RICHARD COPE, CEO, NANOLUMENS: Less than a quarter of an inch thick, very flexible. JERAS: Richard Cope is the CEO of NanoLumens, an Atlanta company focused on developing flexible high-definition indoor advertising screens. Cope says that science fiction has moved closer to becoming advertising fact.

COPE: We have everything there but the displays. Indoor advertising is growing second only to Internet.

JERAS: It all started with this.

COPE: Flexible, green only, no video, no nothing, except the concept and the technology behind it with the ability to do flexible stuff.

JERAS: Acquired from a university in Canada, originally developed as a small flexible screen concept for personal electronics like cell phones and iPods.

COPE: We thought it would be better for very large, ten foot and larger indoor displays that were thin, light, and flexible, and significantly more environmental.

JERAS: Nine months later and four generations later ...

COPE: We built this five times the size, can bend it around itself, quarter of an inch thick, runs on batteries so the whole thing is portable.

JERAS: Cope says they use existing technology but configured in new ways to achieve this flexibility.

COPE: Our display mechanism is essentially stiff things and an overall flexible matrix. And people have a lot of trouble visualizing that. So one of the analogies I use is a sequined dress on Angelina Jolie. The sequins don't bend but the dress forms very nicely around whatever it's put on.

JERAS: Initially developed for indoor advertising at places like subway stations, airports, and malls, the technology can be adapted to any shape and fit any contour.

COPE: Show up in a cardboard box and you can stick it to the wall if you want with Velcro.

JERAS: Cope believes other applications, such as portable trade show displays and even military applications, are in its future.

Jacqui Jeras, CNN, Atlanta.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NGUYEN: All right, we do have some breaking news to tell you about. There's been an attack on Pakistan's army headquarters. That has been reported.

But we are learning now that two of the militants that actually got inside the compound are holding hostages. CNN's Reza Sayah is in Islamabad. He joins me now by phone. What's the latest on this, Reza? What do you know?

SAYAH, (via telephone): Betty, when it comes to militant attacks in Pakistan, without question this has been one of the most brazen, audacious attacks that we have ever seen.

This is a standoff that's now extended to more than eight hours. And according to military officials, two armed militants are inside, inside army headquarters in Rawalpindi just outside the federal capital of Islamabad, and they have at least several, several military personnel as hostages.

Now, this all started around 12:00 noon local time here in Pakistan when you had several militants wearing camouflage uniforms, trying to penetrate the heart of Pakistan's security apparatus. This is the headquarters of the army.

According to officials, they drove up in a minivan. They opened fire on a check post. They killed several guards. They managed to race past the initial check post. They got to a second check post. That's where, according to officials, there was another very fierce gunfight.

But that's where officials initially said they were stopped. They said four militants were killed. Initially speaking to them, they said everything is under control.

But then hours passed, and they kept saying there's two militants in the periphery of the compound and the situation had not been resolved. But now we're hearing that, indeed, they had penetrated the walls of the compound. They're holding military personnel hostage and the standoff is ongoing -- Betty?

NGUYEN: All right, Reza Sayah joining us live by phone on the situation of hostages being taken after militants attacked the Pakistan Army headquarters. We'll continue to follow that story for you.

And you are watching CNN Saturday morning. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

NGUYEN: All right, everybody, welcome back.

When you hear the word "supermodel," you probably think size two, legs ten feet long. You get the idea.

"Glamour" magazine is hoping to change that with an unprecedented photo. It's in the November issue. "Glamour" is featuring seven plus-size models in the buff, in the nude.

The image is creating quite the buzz as the magazine attempts to push the boundaries of what we think of as a beautiful body.

So joining me now to talk about the effort is Anansa Sims, one of the plus-size models in the picture, and her mother, Beverly Johnson, a supermodel herself. I tell you, the genes on these two women, incredible.

So, as we talk about this, I want to talk to you first, Anansa, because in your opinion the photo shoot. How important was it for you to not only be a part of this but to send a message?

ANANSA SIMS, PLUS-SIZED MODEL: It was so important to me. I think it's time for a new message to be sent, a new vision of what beauty is.

NGUYEN: And what is that message, then? What is that vision?

SIMS: I think the message is beauty is in all different shapes and sizes and it's not just a size zero, two, or four. It's a 10, it's a 12, it's 14, and on from there. And just getting that image out there and showing the world something different.

NGUYEN: Were you a little nervous, though, because you are in the nude.

SIMS: You know, I really was more anxious than nervous. I think --

NGUYEN: You are professional. This was simply work, right?

SIMS: It was work and it was just so important to me to show women like we can all drop our robes and be comfortable with our bodies and who we are. So, I feel like if I could be comfortable with that, then women that read the magazine and see the pictures and young girls, they can also be comfortable.

NGUYEN: It is quite a beautiful picture. We should put it up again, too, if we can, so -- Drew's going, yes, please put it up. I mean, this is a gorgeous shot.

And it's just -- it's an example of real women. And that's what I love about it.

Let me get to you, Beverly. You've been in the business a very long time, and you've seen women's body image change over the years. First of all, before I get to that question, how proud of your daughter are you, who took part in this?

BEVERLY JOHNSON, SUPERMODEL: She's my hero, she's my absolute hero. And I think what she's doing is just so needed to encourage women to embrace their bodies and to acknowledge their beauty.

NGUYEN: Beauty has changed, would you say, over the years? When you were hot on the scene, and still an amazing looking woman, but when you were at the height of your career and modeling, what was that image and how has it changed to what it is today?

JOHNSON: Well, that's one of the reasons why I really didn't want my daughter to go into the modeling business because, you know, of what I had to do to remain so thin as a fashion model. And I do believe that the image today and the images that models and actresses are putting out there to the world because of the media that we have now and the Internet, you know, things can be seen in a matter of seconds, that it's really important that we take responsibility to let women know that, you know, it is not a requirement to be super thin in order to be beautiful.

NGUYEN: Yes. and did you struggle, as well weather body image and weight and things of that sort when you were modeling?

JOHNSON: Yes, absolutely, absolutely. I ate very little.

In the beginning, I was a thin child and a thin teenager. But as I grew older, you know, you put on weight, and then I really had to do some things. Basically, you don't eat.

So, I'm very happy that my daughter went on to get her MBA and now is representing plus-size models. I think it's very important.

NGUYEN: It's fantastic. And the business is so highly competitive, so there is that pressure.

But on the flipside, is there a pressure, too, that the right message is being sent? Yes, we want you to be healthy and beautiful, but there is an obesity epidemic in the U.S. So how are you tackling that angle of it, Anansa?

SIMS: On the blogs, a few people have written, is this the right message to be sent because of the whole obesity issue out there? But all of us women on the shoot we're all from a size 10 to a size 14. We're all healthy, eat right, work out.

I think we're promoting the right message. We can be healthy. This is our body, so we're healthy, but we're not a size four, we're not a size six. But we're still healthy people putting a positive image out there.

NGUYEN: And it's celebrating who you are. And it's so wonderful to see the business evolve and change.

And I want to thank you both. We've got two generations here with us today in the modeling industry, very beautiful women who are smart, confident, and just celebrating who they are. Thank you so much for spending some time with us today.

SIMS: Thank you.

JOHNSON: Thank you.

NGUYEN: Drew, gorgeous picture, right?

GRIFFIN: Why don't we show it again? I mean, what the heck.

NGUYEN: Roll that beautiful footage one more time.

GRIFFIN: There we go. NGUYEN: There you go.

GRIFFIN: Why don't you just leave that up while I read this.

NGUYEN: OK.

GRIFFIN: Where do the smart people live? How about those who may not be smart?

Wait. Where's the picture? Put the picture back up. Come on.

And how do you come up with such a list? That's ahead in the next hour of CNN NEWSROOM. I'm getting yelled at in my ear right now.

It stood for more than 50 years. Now a cross at the center of a debate at the Supreme Court. The legal guys weighing in in our noon eastern hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

GRIFFIN: Breaking news from Pakistan. Hostage situation at Pakistani headquarters overnight in Rawalpindi. There was an attack there where militants actually tried to break into this army headquarters.

They killed a bunch of people, got inside. Four of the terrorists were killed, but now we're understanding that two of those terrorists somehow are in the compound holding members of the army hostages.

This is a breaking news situation that's happening right now in Pakistan. Our Reza Sayah is working on this story. But, again, this troubling situation that we thought was over overnight is not over, that there is a terrorist attack currently under way in Pakistan.

NGUYEN: All right. We want to turn right to the ongoing teen violence in Chicago. It's become so widespread it's gained national attention. And the White House is stepping in with a mentoring plan for at-risk kids using millions of dollars in stimulus money.

Steve Perry, our education contributor, says that simply will not cut it. He explained why to me a little earlier this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: The school system as it begins is too large. The problems are too vast.

This is a solvable problem when we break the school system down into smaller units. You've heard me say before, vouchers. Children need to be able to choose a school that speaks to their academic interests and needs.

If a child is interested in science and engineering, she should not be forced to go to a local school that does not offer science and engineering as the primary emphasis of that school's curriculum. In addition to that, what needs to happen is the schools within themselves need to be changed. Teachers need to take on roles as advisers, as teachers, as well, and as coaches. This is the model that's called the triple threat among private schools.

In addition to that, what we also need to do is extend the school year. The school year is too short for the children.

NGUYEN: They're going to love that one.

PERRY: I think that they will.

NGUYEN: You think?

PERRY: We have a year-round school. We have 2,000 children on our waiting list. I haven't printed a brochure in three years.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

NGUYEN: Perry also said it's tough for parents to do a better job teaching at home because many of them come from the same broken school system.