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Workplace Romance
Aired October 10, 2009 - 16:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
DAVID LETTERMAN, HOST, "THE LATE NIGHT SHOW WITH DAVID LETTERMAN": The creepy part was that I have had sex with women who worked for me on this show. Now, my response to that is, Yes, I have. I have had sex with women who work on this show. And would it be embarrassing if it were made public? Perhaps it would. Perhaps it would especially for the women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: OK. So he's making light of it, but it's also become pretty serious for a lot of other people. So we're talking about this from all angles, ethics, legal, and behavioral do's and don'ts. With us now employment attorney Robin Bond, ethicist Bruce Weinstein, he is the author of "Is it Still Cheating if Don't Get Caught" and also author Nicole Williams. Her book called "Girl on Top" and Rosemary Aganito, author of "Dirty Little Secrets: Sex in the Workplace."
Whew, those titles, pretty steamy stuff. We also will have with us in this hour Jess Barron and Chris Strimbu, an engaged couple who met on the job. They're going to be telling us their stories and of course, our Josh Levs taking a look at your comments. So we've been asking the question all day long, about workplace romance, is it appropriate? If so, how do you go forward on this.
We've also been getting feedback on our blog, on I-reports and also on my Facebook. And we also went out on the streets and we asked this question. What do you think about relationships that start in the workplace? This is what you said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think some of the best relationships probably started in the workplace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think there are a lot of successful relationships that have started in the workplace, and it sometimes feels like the workplace is the market, marketplace. That's where people go to find love.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: OK. Some of the places there. We still want to hear from you. You can join in on the conversation by going to my blog at cnn.com/fredricka or I'm also on Facebook. Fredricka Whitfield CNN. And Josh Levs is also with us, and he's got his Facebook page and blog page going, ready to hear from you.
So let's return to our conversation. Let's get the conversation started, that is, with employment attorney Robin Bond with us now, and we will talk to all of our experts that I just introduced within the hour. So first, Robin, let's talk about the legalities of a relationship that is sparked at the workplace. Not all workplaces kind of have rules of engagement. Some say no fraternization whatsoever.
ROBIN BOND, EMPLOYMENT ATTORNEY: Absolutely. But all workplaces must have a policy that says no sexual harassment. And that's the difference. Fraternization means is it permissible for people to date if they work in the same place and fraternization could be perfectly permissible between peers or people who are deemed of equal stature. The problem becoming when you have one person in power who can control the other person's job, and the one person says "I'm afraid to get out of the relationship because I could lose my job in the process."
All organizations need to have some policy that says it's not permissible to use your power within the organization to force someone to get into a relationship or stay in one with you.
WHITFIELD: But if we're not talking about force, we're talking about willing participants in a relationship, what kind of legal road might they need to think about or even consider or is it something to even worry about if they are consensual adults and they're both saying, you know what, we're both in on this.
BOND: Absolutely. The first word in the definition f sexual harassment is unwelcome and in order to have a sexual harassment claim, you have to have unwelcome sexual advances.
WHITFIELD: But that's if it's harassment but if we're not talking harassment, we're talking about romance and both parties say, you know, I'm willingly going into this, and I am seeing, you know, a promising potential future with this person even though I work with them. Do they have to worry about any legal ramifications when it is consensual, when both parties are happy?
BOND: Actually, no. If it's consensual, the only thing you have to check is does your employer have a particular policy that controls whether or not you could lose your job because you date someone. You know, It could be perfectly legal activity, but the employer prohibits it in his workplace. So that you do have to check. Check the policy. What is the rule here?
Secondly, if you are dating someone in the workplace, it could limit your promotion opportunities and certainly your romance is going to be conducted under the microscope of office gossip and politics because everybody in the office kind of pays attention to what's going on, and this could be, you know, a reflection of your judgment or like is said your -
WHITFIELD: Yes, your upward mobility is being jeopardized, but not necessarily because you are dating the boss or you're the boss dating an employee, but simply because the chatter around the office place that could compromise your reputation, your credibility in the workplace?
BOND: Right. Absolutely. Or your ability to be promoted in the group because they won't let you manage someone in your own group, you know, if you're dating them.
WHITFIELD: Well, interesting, too, you have sort of some point that we'd like to highlight. They're about, what, four or five points, particularly if you're thinking about getting into the relationship with someone you work with. You need to keep these things in mind. Know the company's policy. You went over that. Take it slow.
BOND: Take it very slow. I always say just to know this person, to make sure that this person is really worth the risk to your career. And, you know, third -
WHITFIELD: Be aware.
BOND: Be very aware. I suggest get to know somebody through lunches or really just taking your time getting to know them. You can't rush into an office romance. And, third, of course, don't use the office e-mail system to write love notes or express your passion because there is no privacy in the office. And this has been the downfall of many an executive.
WHITFIELD: And we've seen that in high-profile case, Detroit mayor, you know, Kwame Kilpatrick, we saw how those e-mails with someone he was allegedly having an affair with came back to haunt them. All right. Let's bring in our Josh Levs. We've been hearing from a lot of folks, Josh, who are saying, you know what? This isn't so unusual to spark a romance at work. What are folks most concerned about?
JOSH LEVS,CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's true. I mean, a lot of people are saying that. And I'll tell everyone right now, coming up, we're actually going to look at those statistics. How often it happens. But Robin, I want to toss this question to you. It's a comment that came to us from Adelaide. Let's go straight to it because it really gets to what you're talking about. It's part of what is so complicated. She says if there are rules, they should be written down in black and white, no shades of gray.
Now here is what I want to know. How specific can these workplace rules be? Can a workplace actually say, well, if you're spending time together but you're not physically intimate, follow this rule? Can they ever get black and white? How much of a right does your workplace have to dictate your romantic life, even if it's someone from your office?
BOND: Oh, well, you know, our rights are not unfettered. There's no unfettered freedom, so to speak, in the workplace. People think there's total freedom of speech in the workplace and there really isn't. So when you come to these kind of relationships, yes, employers have a duty under the law to protect and provide a safe environment. So what they try to do is have a policy of more general application as opposed to what Adelaide is suggesting. You know, a rule that applies to every situation.
What I have seen done is human resources might say something like this, if you are engaging in a consensual relationship, you have a duty to notify human resources so we are on notice.
LEVS: Right.
BOND: Sometimes these are called love contracts. You might have heard of it -
LEVS: We have heard of those. We'll talk about it during the hour.
WHITFIELD: Some want to keep it secret sometimes, but no you got to reveal it.
BOND: Well, you might have to. So again, human resources says, OK, we know this is on record. And then if the circumstances change, you just tell us the circumstances have changed. So we're no longer a couple because that we want to make that one person doesn't stalk or harass the other -
WHITFIELD: OK. Interesting.
LEVS: We'll look at more throughout the hour. Thank you.
WHITFIELD: All right. Robin and Josh, hold it right there. Because we're going to delve into this even further. So perhaps the relationship is not necessarily illegal, but instead it may go in the direction of what David Letterman said, maybe some would describe it as being creepy or just downright unethical.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: OK. Workplace romances, not a new phenomenon, but because of some recent high-profile cases it has a lot of us looking at it with a whole new lens. This is what some of you are saying about whether you think it's appropriate or not to have a workplace romance.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For a lot of people, it's the only place they can meet people these days.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Well, they have to start somewhere, I guess.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Actually, I think they're more likely to start in the workplace than somewhere else.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: OK. So guess what? It really may not be as uncommon as you might think. I think Josh Levs is back with us. He's breaking down some of the numbers. In fact, some pretty impressive numbers in terms of those who really have indulged in workplace romances. Impressive meaning a high number. LEVS: Yes. High number. That's actually how a lot of people meet their mates. I'm about to tell you how many of them get married. And by the way, even more people are bringing this up "The Office" had a big wedding. I didn't see it.
WHITFIELD: I didn't either but boy, I saw the promos.
LEVS: Yes. And this is our story on cnn.com. And it got tons of traffic the other day when people are talking about the wedding on "The Office." All right. So let's talk about this. How often do these office romances in real life actually happen? Here are the numbers for you.
Career Builder did a survey. And we got the graphics. Let's go to it. 40 percent of the 8,000 people interviewed said they have dated a co-worker. 18 percent said they dated more than one co-worker in their time. Then the next couple of stats show how the spark ignited, how they went from co-workers to mates. They ran into each other outside work, 12 percent. 11 percent were working late together. 10 percent met over happy hour. Another 10 percent met over lunch.
Now, this last one is perhaps the most important when it comes to the complications and the controversies. 34 percent of the office romances involved someone dating a person in a higher position, and of those 42 percent were dating their boss. So when you break it all down, still a substantial chunk, Fred. A lot of people out there who are willing to in some ways take that risk and date their own boss at work.
WHITFIELD: Yes. We use the word risk and I know a lot of folks are trying to weigh whether it's ethical and whether, as Robin was saying, might it stand in the way of me kind of climbing the corporate ladder. So that's why we invited ethicist Bruce Weinstein to join us in this conversation. He is also the author of "Is It Still Cheating if I Don't get Caught."
You know, we're not really going to talk about cheating all the way. We're just going to talk about, in general, relationships, maybe it's just one on one, right, Bruce?
BRUCE WEINSTEIN, THEETHICSGUY.COM: Well, here is the problem ethically, Fredricka, with office romance. You know that saying, what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas?
WHITFIELD: Yes.
WEINSTEIN: Well, when you're dating someone at work, what happens in your bedroom does not stay in your bedroom. It's just inevitable THAT you will bring all those problems with you to work, and it violates the most fundamental ethical principle of all, do no harm. Because you and your romantic partner can be harmed by this relationship, especially when it fizzles out. It can harm morale in the office. It can harm your productivity. It can harm your relationship with the company that employs you.
So it's understandable that you would want to hook up with people at work, but ethically it's problematic because of the potential to violate the principle, do no harm.
WHITFIELD: So I'm hearing you say that forget it, don't do if, don't think about it, do not engage, period.
WEINSTEIN: Well, it's certainly the case that if a manager and a subordinate should never under any circumstances have a relationship because of the imbalance in power that exists between manager and subordinate and the potential for abuse of power. But even between co-workers, it's problematic at best and disturbing or potentially harmful at worst.
Because, let's face it, most relationships don't work out, and if you're stuck working with someone you have just had a relationship with and you have to work on a project, to what extent will you be able to put aside the negative feelings that you have and focus on the work at hand, which after all is the reason that we're at work? Our first responsibility should be to meet the needs of the people we serve, and office romances can interfere with that.
WHITFIELD: OK. So a couple things really stand out for me that of things you just said. Imbalance of power, but if both parties are OK with it, the boss or the other employee, they're OK with this imbalance of power, what and how does it shake up the work dynamic? You know, a lot of times people might want to talk to their co-workers about what they're going through at work or what their opinions are about the boss or the policies, but now that kind of has been poisoned so maybe folks can't feel that comfortable talking to fellow co- workers anymore if one is dating the boss.
WEINSTEIN: It shouldn't have a chilling effect on friendships or friendly relationships in the workplace, but there's been too much of a deal made of this idea made of a consensual relationship. Because you can consent to doing something but still be forced into it. I mean, the most extreme example of this is in the "Godfather" where you put a gun to someone's head and say sign this contract or else. You may consent to signing the contract but you're doing it under duress.
So how do you know if when you consent to having sex with your boss you're not doing it because you feel pressured to do it so that you can advance in the company or if you don't do it, how that might affect your career at the company or beyond. So the fact that two people consent to it isn't sufficient to make it ethically justifiable.
WHITFIELD: OK. So Josh, you have gotten a lot of questions and comments from people who are delving into this whole issue of ethics. What do they have to say?
LEVS: And they're opening up about that experience. In fact, we have a quote from Kay I want to get to. And Bruce, I want you to see what she wrote. She said "I dated a guy who worked in the same department with me. Things were fine until I broke off the relationship. He then brought intimate photos of me to work, sent them interoffice. It got very ugly. I filed sexual harassment charges and he was fired. I would never do it again if I were single." And Bruce, this builds your point here. Keep in mind, you know, we do like to talk about the sweet situations, the marriages that result, but most relationships don't work out. They could end in disaster. Jilted, can I say lovers, jilted people who end their relationships can be a real mess. You have seen stories like this and this is what you're referring to, right?
WEINSTEIN: That's right. In fact, you know, Bill Gates married a woman who worked for him. And we all know of professors who marry students that they date or therapists who marry clients they have. But overall these relationships are just fraught with too many problems. And since do no harm is the most fundamental ethical principle of all, the smart manager will simply avoid these kinds of relationships.
And in fact if David Letterman wants to use his position of celebrity to be a force for good, what he should now talk with managers across corporate America and say, you know what, don't fall into the trap I fell into. This is something that you should take seriously and just do not allow these kinds of relationships to flourish in the workplace because in the long run nothing good comes from it.
LEVS: Bruce and Fred, let me just mention as we have our show, there's also this discussion going on on-line. Here is a good example of what's happening on Facebook. Let's zoom in really quickly. Jeremy right here saying "people should be fired for doing this." Right underneath it, if we can pad down, Chris saying "people are overreacting a little too much to this." People are sharing their own stories, really listening to each other, which I love. And we'll keep it up throughout the show.
WHITFIELD: Well, you know, it's interesting, Bruce and Josh. You know, Josh just had some numbers. 40 percent of people polled said that they had dated someone that they were working with. So it seems to me we're close to half away point, Bruce, where a lot of folks are disagreeing that maybe, you know, there's not too much to risk here. That it's OK.
WEINSTEIN: But last year there was a study by the Josephson (ph) Institute that said that 60 percent of 30,000 high school students interviewed admitted to cheating. And just because 60 percent of students do something like cheating doesn't mean that it's right. So even if 80 percent of people across the country have a relationship at work with their boss or with a co-worker, it doesn't mean that it's OK.
I mean, what we're looking at is not - at least I'm looking at this not from a legal perspective or a policy perspective, but simply the question what is the right thing to do even though, as you say, this may be very common in corporate America.
WHITFIELD: Well, right after this we're going to talk to a couple who is going to say, you know what? Don't pooh-pooh what we got going on here. They've gotten engaged. They met at yahoo! And they hope now to live happily ever after. Their story, there they are.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: Still have much more on workplace romance right after these headlines.
A standoff at Pakistan's Army headquarters. Gunmen are holding 10 to 15 hostages after an attack on the complex. 10 people were killed. Taliban militants claim responsibility.
And some Muslim Americans say the investigation into an alleged New York terror plot is going too far. 24-year-old Najibullah Zazi is charged with plotting a bomb attack. One of his friends spoke out at a news conference today. Naiz Khan said he has been under around the clock surveillance even though he has done nothing wrong.
And President Barack Obama will face a skeptical audience tonight when he addresses the nation's largest gay rights group. The Human Rights Campaign. Gay and lesbian leaders say Mr. Obama has not followed through on campaign promises, including a pledge to end the don't ask, don't tell rule in the U.S. military.
Our hour-long look at workplace romance continues in a moment. So these lovely people right here - yes, Chris and Jessie met at work and the sparks flew and guess what? Now they're engaged. So they have a message for our ethicist Bruce Weinstein right after this.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
WHITFIELD: We're focusing in on workplace romances. Uncomfortable for some and fairy tale like for many others. Here is some of what you had to say.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's like a double-edged sword. It could either work out to be really good or work out to be really bad because who wants to look at an ex all day long at work.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think it's OK to start in the workplace as long as it's not interfering with, you know, the duties of the job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I don't know if it's really a great idea because you never really - I mean, you don't always know where a relationship is going to go.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: I love what the first guy said, it could be really good or it could be really bad. Well, so far it's really good for this couple that you're about to meet right now. Jess Barron and Chris Strimbu. Congratulations on your engagement, joining us from Los Angeles.
CHRIS STRIMBU, MET & DATE AT WORK, NOW ENGAGED: Thank you so much.
JESS BARRON, MET & DATED AT WORK, NOW ENGAGED: Thank you.
WHITFIELD: How did it evolve? I mean, love at first sight. You all are working together and you decide, you know what? Let's try this or was there some other influence?
STRIMBU: No, it actually happened that way. The first time we had ever met was actually in a conference room at a meeting at yahoo! When I first started there my first week, and I think there was an initial attraction, that physical attraction you always have towards somebody, and it developed over time over the course of four months.
WHITFIELD: But for a minute, Chris, were you saying, no way, uh-uh, I'm not getting involved with somebody I work with?
STRIMBU: Absolutely, yes. I have never been one to date somebody that I work with or be involved in a relationship like that.
WHITFIELD: And s what made you go forward with it anyway?
STRIMBU: Well, we both had a lot of discussions about it and actually when we were, you know, actually courting each other and spending a lot of time with each other, we started to realize that it was developing into something a little bit more than just dating, so we decided to see what would happen and just kind of keep it on the down low at work and see what happened.
WHITFIELD: Interesting. So Jess, you know, Chris says you all talked about it. In fact, that's one of the things that if you were listening to the top of the show, Robin Bond, who is an employment attorney, said, yes, these are one of the things that you need to explore when thinking about getting into a relationship with someone. You need to talk about the parameters. How did you all have a discussion about whether or not to date?
BARRON: Well, we took that very seriously. I was actually a manager at Yahoo! at the time and so I took my career very seriously, and I had been working there for four years, and I knew all about the training that you have about a) sexual harassment, b) relationships in the workplace. So Chris and I went, looked and actually researched all of the documentation on that to find out what the exact rules and legality were, and we -
WHITFIELD: Were you his manager, by the way?
BARRON: No, I was not his manager. I definitely - yes. But I did have men on my team as well as women, and they were all co-workers of ours and our teams worked alongside each other. So we didn't want to do anything that would cause any problems with our friends and co- workers. And so it was good that we took things very slow. We also talked about public displays of affection. We're both pretty private people. So we did not want to have any public displays of affection. No holding hands or kissing -
STRIMBU: No kissing at the desk.
BARRON: No kissing at the news desk or you know, we definitely treated each other very - like colleagues in meetings and other things.
WHITFIELD: you really came up with your own rules of engagement, which probably really I guess protected some of the respect and your credibility that you have with your other co-workers, because I'm sure, you know, they probably didn't want to see you guys smooching all the time either or get into goey-goo (ph).
BARRON: Absolutely. But there was a gossip mill. I mean, even before we got together I think some people thought, oh, there's a flirtation going on. So we tried to make sure everything to talk to people and let them know what was going on. I was so nervous about it, and I think he was too. And when we told the people that worked with us, they actually were very happy for us and they said it was absolutely normal and they actually made us feel a lot better about the whole situation.
WHITFIELD: So were you more nervous about what other people were thinking or were you nervous about what happens if this doesn't go well? I got to see this person even, you know, after we break up if it were to come to that.
BARRON: Both of those. We took a lot of time. It was four months between when we met and our first kiss, and we definitely debated it and talked about it many, many times before hand whether we should go forward with any kind of relationship because we didn't want a) to hurt either of our careers or b) to have to see the person if it didn't work out. So taking it slowly actually was a really smart decision. I think it's helped our relationship a lot.
WHITFIELD: Wow. OK. You guys could have helped write the rules that Robin Bond expressed earlier. Because that was another one. She said take it slow. That was her recommendation, if you're thinking about getting into a relationship. So you're engaged now. When is the wedding? Have you gone that far?
BARRON: Going to be next summer. Likely August or September next year.
WHITFIELD: OK. Congratulations, Jess and Chris. All the best.
STRIMBU: Thank you very much.
WHITFIELD: Our Josh Levs has been hearing from other couples via I- report who had very similar stories, meaning happy endings.
LEVS: Yes, you know. I feel I have been like a yo-yo the last 20 minutes.
WHITFIELD: - or happy new beginnings. That's another way of looking at it, right?
LEVS: That's good. New beginnings. Well, some new beginnings followed an ending, which is people write about previous relationships. It's interesting, Fred, first we were looking at some of these that lead to marriage, right? Now we're hearing these great stories. And there's some right here. Let's zoom into the photos. I got three photos to show from you ireport.com.
People writing us about how they met at the workplace. This first one is from a i-reporter Lori Meier in Newport Beach, California. They fell in love and married the new office attorney. That's how they got together. The next one over here, I-reporter Lori Yeager, of Colorado Springs, Colorado. These two knew that HR did not like the idea of them dating. So they kept it secret until they got engaged a year into their relationship.
And finally this one over here. Amber Degrace (ph) wrote us from Lancaster, Pennsylvania. She and her now-husband met at work in 2005 and their company was opposed to their romance, she says. But they kept it professional while they were there and ultimately it blossomed into love. So you can see some beautiful love stories there.
WHITFIELD: And a family.
LEVS: And a family but to be fair we are also hearing from some people who are saying, wait a second, it's not a good idea. Here is an example.
WHITFIELD: OK. Good. Let's hear it.
LEVS: Here you go.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It leads to trouble, and it just puts everyone in your business. Not to mention the fact do you really want to see someone on and off the clock? It just kills the buzz, the romance, the spark.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
LEVS: So, yes, Fred, for some people it just won't work, you know.
WHITFIELD: That's right. All right. Well, coming up, Josh, we're going to hear from two female authors who wrote the books, so to speak, on workplace romance.
But first, we have to get past their very racy titles. Wait until you hear them.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN ANCHOR: Welcome back. A whole hour on workplace romance. So, is it workplace romance or is it toxic work environment. That was the word of the president of the National Organization for Women who had this to say following more details about David Letterman's admissions that he had affairs with his staffers.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TERRY O'NEILL, PRES., NATL. ORGANIZATION FOR WOMEN: What the boss is doing is he is separating the women from the men, and the women are for sex and the men are there for their talents and skills. It's wrong, and it creates a toxic environment for the men as well as the women.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
WHITFIELD: We're going to delve into that a little bit more. Is it indeed a toxic environment when you talk about workplace romance? We have two authors who are with us. Nicole Williams is the author of, ah, I have to take a deep breath when I say this title, "Girl on Top: Your Guide to Turning Dating Rules into Career Success." And Rosemary Agonito, author of "Dirty Little Secrets, Sex in the Workplace." All right ladies, this is pretty racy stuff don't you think?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It's fun stuff, it's very interesting and very timely.
WHITFIELD: OK, so Nicole, I wonder, do you agree with N.O.W. president who says this is a toxic environment. As soon as you have romance in the workplace, and she really is talking in large part about David Letterman and how he, as the boss, is having sex with his staffers, does that create a toxic environment? Should no one be involved in a workplace romance?
NICOLE WILLIAMS, AUTHOR, "GIRL ON TOP": I just don't think you can just blank slate it like that. Of course, people -- up to 70 percent of your waking life is spent at work, so yes, you are going to meet someone you have the potential to engage in a romantic relationship with. It is absolutely true. I actually disagree with N.O.W. in the fact that I am a woman, I'm a feminist, and there are going to be some circumstances where there's a relationship and a woman legitimately feels forced into a situation that is not good, not healthy. She's being forced into a romantic relationship, but I work with a lot of women who are actually consciously engaging in a romantic relationship, and I think that women are strong enough to be able to say no, I don't want this, if they don't want this.
So, you know, I actually love to give women credit and to give them voice in these instances and circumstances where, sure, they may be engaged in a romantic relationship, but they're consenting to it. I'm not -- I am absolutely aware of the pitfalls and the potential risks, but at the end of the day, like your guest, there are a lot of fantastic successful relationship that come out of the workplace.
WHITFIELD: Rosemary, what is your take on this? A couple of times I saw you shaking your head, no, uh-uh, I don't think so. Is it really an issue when we talk about power play, the presumption is it's the boss who is the man and the woman who is the co-worker and that there's this power structure that's being disrupted here?
ROSEMARY AGONITO, AUTHOR, "DIRTY LITTLE SECRETS": Yes, in fairness to N.O.W., they were talking about the Letterman situation. Here you have this very powerful man who cannot keep his pants on, and he's going after his female staffers. In other words, it appears that he looks at his female staffers as his own personal playground. Now, that --
WHITFIELD: That's a pretty strong point she made there. AGONITO: Yes. Look, Letterman said, "I wasn't married at the time." He admitted that he engaged in these sexual relationships with multiple women in the workplace. Now, what is the message that's being sent to the women in his workplace when he does this? And the message is you are there for my sexual pleasure, and so I do think N.O.W. has a point, and by the way, I'm not as willing to let these women off the hook as maybe some others are because, after all, they did know that Letterman was in a long-term relationship. He had lived with his now wife for eight years. He had a son, and so I think women in that case, in that particular case, were buying into this stereotype of women as sex objects, women sleeping their way to the top.
WHITFIELD: OK. Well, listen to this from Pete Conway, who wrote this thought on my blog saying, "I have yet to hear anything about females in the workplace who gravitate naturally to men of power. I have seen this many times over a 15-year period as head of a human resources department in a medium-sized company. I have had to peel them off executives who didn't invite the attention in the first place. Some of the gravitation is unconscious and some is very purposeful." Nicole, do you want to take a stab at that?
WILLIAMS: Yes, I think that's actually an excellent point. I deal with a lot of women -- honest to goodness, I have had women come into my office and say that they're going to engage in an office romance specifically, very intentionally, to get ahead. And that I have to say is career suicide. That's ridiculous. You know, there are much more effective ways to getting ahead in the world of work rather than sleeping with your boss. It's such an interesting topic, and certainly, yes, there are women who are attracted to powerful men. A lot of women in my office were like I would have gotten in line. Like how fantastic. Look at this strong, attractive, funny man who, you know, this woman in particular would have been attracted to as well. It's like --
WHITFIELD: All right, well, Josh Levs, you have been hearing from people, too, who have comments, questions, whether it's about the power structure, whether it's dating the boss, whether it's simply the dynamic of what this brings to a workplace when people start dating.
JOSH LEVS: This is something that's coming up a lot in the blog. I just want to toss it at each of you. Nicole, I'll start with you. As someone who has thought about this, and you each have, how do you think the rules are different if you're talking about a woman in power and a man who might be in a lower level and they engage in a relationship in that way?
WILLIAMS: Yes, there's still double standards. I'll be crystal clear with you. You know, most often it is a man in the position of power and, you know, the woman who is the subordinate and, you know, the career ramifications are very significant for her if he doesn't get found out.
LEVS: If you switch the genders are the rules different?
WILLIAMS: Yes, you know what? Yes, frankly. You know, I think that they shouldn't necessarily be. Are we talking about the fact that people should just not be having sex with their subordinates in general or --
LEVS: That's what we're asking. This is interesting. It's one of the topics that's being debated on the blog. There are a couple guys who have brought this up, who have said wait a second, how is it different? Rosemary, what about you? I know you have thought about this as well. If you switch the genders and you talk about a similar situation, do you feel the rules are different if you switch the genders there?
AGONITO: Well, I think we have to make two points here. One is that in the public's mind because of the historical stereotypes we deal with as men and women, yes, we do look at these differently. But in practical terms, it doesn't matter whether the predator, if you will, the person who is seeking to get ahead through a sexual relationship or someone who is in a position of power and is using someone else, whoever is the predator in practical terms, they are both wrong. But in terms of perception, we know that the stereotypes of women invariably mean that everybody comes down much harder on women than they do on men, whether the woman is a boss or whether she's a subordinate.
WHITFIELD: OK. We're going to invite everybody back, Rosemary and Nicole, don't go anywhere. Josh, don't go anywhere. Bruce is going to be back with us as well as Robin and even our couple, Jess and Chris. Thanks so much for that. All of you are going to be back. We're going to talk about everything from the rewards to perhaps even some of the resentments that come with workplace romance.
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WHITFIELD: We'll get back to our focus of workplace romance, but first these top stories.
A standoff at Pakistan's army headquarters. Gunmen are holding 10 to 15 hostages after an attack on the complex, 10 people were killed. Taliban militants claim responsibility.
A UCLA student attacked in a chemistry lab is expected to recover. UCLA senior Damon Thompson is accused of stabbing the young woman as other students watched in horror. Police are not sure about the motive.
We're still getting dramatic video of last month's deadly Tsunami in America Samoa. A security camera at the FBI office in Pago Pago showed a huge wave rolling in and tossing cars and trucks as if they were simply toys. Our special hour, "Workplace Romance" continues in a moment. What should be the rules of engagement if you do decide to date someone at work?
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WHITFIELD: All right. So you're thinking about a workplace romance, and in this hour you've already heard from an ethicist who says don't do it, that was Bruce Weinstein. And then you also heard from an employment attorney who says, you know what, know some of the rules, and you may want to consider discussing this. So lots of things. We're going to bring back all of our guests here to talk about the rules of engagement. Here are some of the things that you had to say about the worries or the pitfalls about getting involved at work.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Obviously, there's a certain ethical code that should be followed in the workplace.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think a certain amount of decorum ought to be followed.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think they should be disclosed to human resources.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Almost every company has some sort of rule governing that sort of thing, but it's hard for companies to govern nature.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I think if they're in different departments within the job, then they should have to work within separate departments because I think the relationship can get in the way of the duties of the job.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I guess it depends on the work situation because every job is different. You've got big corporate jobs where you could be on different floors of the building. Like I work in a very small hair salon and, you know, that would be just difficult to date someone within that same hair salon because you're always around.
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WHITFIELD: OK. So we brought everybody back to discuss these rules of engagement. We already know what ethicist Bruce Weinstein has to say about this. He says, no, don't do it, forget it, not ethical.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No, not quite, Fredricka.
WHITFIELD: Really, OK good, then we'll give you a chance to elaborate on this. Let me reintroduce everybody then. Employment attorney Robin Bond is also back with us. Authors Nicole Williams and Rosemary Agonito is also back with us, and an engaged couple they met at Yahoo! while at work, Jeff Barron and Chris Strimbu as well as Josh Levs. OK, you say, Bruce, wait a minute, you're not completely discouraging it. It sounded like you were.
BRUCE WEINSTEIN, THEETHICSGUY.COM: That's right, in my article called "The Ethics of Office Romance" which I wrote for BusinessWeek online. I have three simple rules anyone should follow if they're thinking about going into an office romance. First of all, go in with your eyes wide open. That means if the relationship fizzles out or if co- workers complain, one or both of you may have to leave the department that you're in or even leave the place of work. Secondly, be discreet. Discretion is the better part of sex. So this means no kissy, kissy, no lovey-dovey at work. And third, if you're thinking about having sex with a manager or you are the manager and you're thinking about having sex with your assistant, don't. That's it. Three rules.
WHITFIELD: Well, Jess, Chris, do you like what you heard? Some of the things you shared earlier about how you decide to proceed, you just heard reiterated by Bruce there.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, absolutely.
WHITFIELD: Any added tips you want to offer to anybody?
CHRIS STRIMBU, MET & DATED AT WORK, NOW ENGAGED: Well, I think for our situation it worked out, too, because I wasn't a direct report to Jessica, so I think if the situation was a little bit different and she was my manager, then it definitely would have played out a little bit differently. But I think anybody who is interested in pursuing something, just go in it -- you have to think about it before you're going to do it and you have to really consider some of the possibility of what's going to come out of it professionally and also what people might think of it.
WHITFIELD: Robin Bond, you had some tips at the top of the hour and that included talking it over, hashing out the details, and going slow. What more would you want to add to the rules of engagement?
ROBIN BOND, EMPLOYMENT ATTORNEY: Definitely, you have to have a strategy of who is going to do what, and if this is getting serious, I think like Jess and Chris were saying, you have to talk about it. Which of us should leave, where could we go and don't wait until the 11th hour. Put this in place before you have a problem. Definitely want to be thinking, good strategy and good tactics.
WHITFIELD: Rosemary, what is a must-have? What do you really need to abide by if you're thinking about getting into a relationship at work or you're in one and you want to stay in it?
AGONITO: Well, I think to keep it very simple there are two things. Knowledge and common sense. You have to know what you're doing. That is, do you know whether the other person is married, in a long-term relationship. If so, run to the door. Do you know your company's policy? You must know your company's policy. If you are contemplating having a relationship with a boss, then under no conditions should you be reporting to that person. Under no conditions should that person be making decisions about your advancement, your pay, promotions, et cetera. So, that's the knowledge part of it. The other part is common sense. Look, we all have common sense or we ought to.
WHITFIELD: But sometimes that goes out the window when you decide you like somebody.
AGONITO: Yes. It does. That's true. But if we use the most fundamental of common senses that look, I'm having a relationship in a public place.
WHITFIELD: OK. AGONITO: Therefore, I do not behave the way I behave if I'm in private. This is a workplace.
WHITFIELD: Nicole, your book, "Girls on Top," I blush when I say it. I remember throughout the book you have all kinds of bullet points. What would be a bullet point of the rules of engagement to get involved with somebody at work?
WILLIAMS: Just to be careful. I think we all have the same message relative to the fact that there is a risk inherent in this and you really do need to be very conscious about how you want to play this out. Honestly, at the same time I want to say that some of the best relationships I've ever seen I've personally been in a romantic relationship with someone I worked with. And as Jess and Chris have illustrated there are some fantastic opportunities that come by virtue of working together and being able to pre-vet that person knowing a thing about their intelligence, their character, their integrity. There's a lot that you can get to know about someone at work that you can use to help discern whether this is a romantic opportunity.
WHITFIELD: I heard from Christina on my blog who says, "Here's a rule of engagement. She says my friends and I are in our early and mid-20s our rule is no workplace romances period. It can hurt your career in the long run, being that guy or that girl doesn't always leave you any more when you leave a job. We have these glorious things like Facebook, Myspace and Twitter to keep these things haunting us." That coming from Christina on my blog. We have many more comments coming your way and your final thoughts from our experts right after this.
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WHITFIELD: Our final thoughts now on workplace romance. You know why we're talking about this from David Letterman to Senator John Ensign to former astronaut Lisa Nowak, all these high-profile cases that have kind of highlighted workplace romance. Is it right, is it wrong, et cetera? Josh Levs has some final thoughts from you at home via our blog and Facebook to all of our panelists here. So Josh what you got?
LEVS: Yes we have them all, let's zoom in on the screen behind me for a second I'll show you some. As the show goes on we're also having this national conversation online. This one from Sharon who says that, "She dated someone at work. Our supervisor interfered with the budding romance, spreading rumors, stalking, you name it. It was awful." Then this one from Kara, who met someone at work, "it landed me the best paycheck yet, a wonderful and loving husband and partner for life." We're following Facebook. "Gotta be careful even if both office partners are mature other co workers can interfere."
Let's check out one here from your Facebook page. "Discretion is the better part of honor. It is no one's business, period."
Let's do a couple screens, I have a screen to show you here. First of all, I want everyone to see where they can weigh in. As their conversation continues even after the show. We should have that, you got the blog, cnn.com/josh. And you also have Facebook and Twitter, Joshlevscnn. And one more quote that I have for you here from Sandy. Let's take a look at what Sandy said because this is interesting. One of the people who is saying, you know what? When she takes a look at this, a lot of people that she knows have met their partners at work and she says half the married people I know have met their mates at their jobs. So someone's saying, you know what, not a big deal. Fred?
WHITFIELD: OK, sounds good. This last thought from Evan is on my blog saying, "If I was the boss of a company I would discourage such relationships from forming as they can and should be a distraction. I would not fire two people for engaging in a relationship, however, I would ask that they not act couply while on the clock. I would ask this because such behavior is divisive, it creates a feeling of an us and a them that is inconducive to a smooth flowing workforce."
OK so finally thoughts from everybody. And I'll begin it with B, so Robin B. what if you're to engage in a relationship at work?
BOND: Be very smart, and be very discreet.
WHITFIELD: Bruce?
WEINSTEIN: Do no harm, period.
WHITFIELD: All right and Nicole.
WILLIAMS: You know, it is to, yes, be discreet, and to do no harm, and engage, if it's the right opportunity for you, because love is hard to find.
WHITFIELD: And Rosemary.
AGONITO: Never take advantage of another person and never allow another person to take advantage of you.
WHITFIELD: And Jess and Chris?
BARRON: I would say take it slow. Be aware of what those around you are doing and saying and what you're projecting and be discreet.
STRIMBU: I agree with that.
WHITFIELD: Ditto on that one. OK.
Jess Barron, Chris Strimbu, thanks so much and congratulations and all the best on your nuptials next summer. And Rosemary Agonito the author of "Dirty Little Secrets: Sex in the Workplace." And Nicole Williams, "Girls on Top, Your Guide to Turning Dating Rules into Career Success." And ethicist Bruce Weinstein, always good to see you, title of your book "Is it Still Cheating if I Don't Get Caught." And employment attorney, Robin Bond, thanks so much.
Boy, that was a lot of titles, I'm exhausted. All right you all were fantastic. Thanks so much. Hopefully everybody learned something about whether to take the plunge or not into that workplace romance. I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Don Lemon's coming up next.
