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Joy Behar Page
Examining the Outrage Over President Obama`s Peace Prize; Will Obama End `Don`t Ask, Don`t Tell?`; Interview With Ed Begley Jr.
Aired October 12, 2009 - 19:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
JOY BEHAR, HOST: Tonight, is the right really outraged that President Obama won the Nobel Peace Prize? Or are they just ticked off because Tom DeLay didn`t win "Dancing with the Stars?"
Then Obama vows to end "Don`t ask, don`t tell" and the gay community is asking when already?
Plus, Ed Begley Jr. on what it feels like to be run over by Rush Limbaugh.
All this and more, tonight.
Apparently winning the Nobel Peace Prize is now a political liability, at least according to Obama`s detractors. Helping me pick through the GOP`s sour grapes: are KT McFarland, former deputy assistant Secretary Defense in the Reagan administration; and Roy Sekoff, founding editor of "The Huffington Post."
Ok, he won the Nobel Peace Prize KT...
KT MCFARLAND, FORMER DEPUTY ASSISTANT SECRETARY OF DEFENSE FOR REAGAN: Right.
BEHAR: ... why didn`t he deserve it?
MCFARLAND: Well, I mean, what`s he done? It`s by my count he`s made seven absolutely terrific speeches but he`s not signed one peace treaty, he has not stopped one nuclear weapon from being developed, he hasn`t even softened any of our adversaries hostile speeches.
So I mean, I understand the importance of making the signal, but he`s not done anything to accomplish it. Now, I would contrast that to my old boss, Ronald Reagan. Hundreds of millions of people freed from the yoke of Soviet depression, tens of thousands...
BEHAR: Well, he didn`t do that himself. I mean, to take credit for that...
MCFARLAND: Well, Gorbachev gave him credit.
BEHAR: Well, Gorbachev is a gentleman. I mean, really he`s going to take credit for that?
MCFARLAND: I think you could -- credit goes to a number of people but I think that the instigator of a lot of it was Ronald Reagan. And I can go through the arguments with you about how he aligned Soviet Union...
BEHAR: But KT, Ronald Reagan has always invoked...
MCFARLAND: But even if he get...
BEHAR: ...as if he created -- he did everything for the Republican Party that was never done again. Bush undid everything he did.
MCFARLAND: But Joy...
BEHAR: Yes.
MCFARLAND: Ronald Reagan didn`t even get an honorable mention from the Nobel committee. And so I have to make the argument...
BEHAR: Yes, they have their opinion.
MCFARLAND: They have their opinion and their entitled to it.
BEHAR: They never said it was an objective panel.
MCFARLAND: No. Yes.
ROY SEKOFF, FOUNDING EDITOR, "THE HUFFINGTON POST": The real question though is, did Obama deserve it? You know actually, I don`t think even he would say that he deserved it.
MCFARLAND: And he was very gracious.
SEKOFF: And he was very gracious...
MCFARLAND: Yes.
SEKOFF: But here`s the question.
MCFARLAND: Yes.
SEKOFF: Where is the venom? Where is the vitriol coming from, from the right? I mean, it`s outrageous.
MCFARLAND: Right.
SEKOFF: I mean, its one thing to say we`re having a discussion on the Huffington Post right now. Some people say he deserved it, some people say he didn`t. But the likes of Rush Limbaugh I have to say...
BEHAR: Well, let`s watch it.
SEKOFF: Yes.
MCFARLAND: Yes.
BEHAR: He`s angry naturally. Listen to this tirade.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RUSH LIMBAUGH, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Can you imagine, folks, how big Obama`s head is today? I didn`t think it could get any bigger, but I think his head`s now growing so big that his ears actually fit.
Liberal sellouts get this prize. George Bush liberates 50 million Muslims. Ronald Reagan liberates hundreds of millions of Europeans, saves parts of Latin America, any awards? No. Just derision.
Obama gives speeches trashing his own country and he gets a prize for it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: He`s so jealous and angry it seems to me because the guy got the Nobel -- first of all, Iraq, 100,000 civilians were killed in Iraq. So let`s not give credit to George Bush for that. Ok.
In Latin America, what did he do in Latin America right now to besides invade Grenada (ph)? What did he do there?
MCFARLAND: Well, Reagan did an awful lot of things throughout the world and I think that the...
SEKOFF: Hold the contrast -- that was one start as the (INAUDIBLE) worthy of that.
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: El Salvador, very worthy of the Peace Prize.
MCFARLAND: Nuclear weapons, intermediate, with the short-range nuclear weapons. It was a class of weapons that was not just reduced, eliminated.
SEKOFF: But let me ask you this KT.
MCFARLAND: Yes.
SEKOFF: You know remember when...
MCFARLAND: Come on, I`ll take you on, one at the time, one at time ok.
SEKOFF: Remember when Limbaugh first said, that he wanted to -- oh I didn`t really want him to fail, it wasn`t about America, it was more about his policies. Listen to that, it`s vitriol. He said he wanted to be on the same side as Hamas and the Taliban. He thought that was hilarious that they were on the same side.
MCFARLAND: Rush Limbaugh, a, is not the Republican Party. And to have a serious conversation about this I think this presents President Obama with a much bigger problem.
BEHAR: Which is?
MCFARLAND: Well, look there`s no yardstick. There`s no benchmark of...
BEHAR: Yes.
MCFARLAND: ...ok, because if you look through the announcement that the Nobel Peace Prize, the Nobel committee said, that they said they were giving it to him in hopes of his quest for nuclear disarmament throughout the world.
BEHAR: Ok.
MCFARLAND: Well, what happens if a year from now Iran has nuclear weapons? North Korea successfully tests nuclear weapons...
BEHAR: Then he would have failed. But that doesn`t stop the committee from giving him a prize.
MCFARLAND: The committee can do whatever it wants. I think Obama was very gracious with his statement. He knows he didn`t deserve it.
BEHAR: Well, KT, you give him no points for the fact that he has changed the conversation in the world? They hated us up until George Bush was out of office.
MCFARLAND: Well, ok, Joy, what have we gotten for that?
BEHAR: The world hated us.
MCFARLAND: What have we gotten for it?
BEHAR: Well, we don`t know yet.
MCFARLAND: Well, have we gotten Russia to help us out?
BEHAR: But you`re looking at it as if you`re supposed to have something in your hand immediately. He`s working on it. The fact that people don`t hate us and want to kill us...
MCFARLAND: At what point...
BEHAR: ...with the same ferocity I think is a big deal.
MCFARLAND: Ok, ok, when he went to Europe and ok so the Europeans now love us.
BEHAR: Yes.
MCFARLAND: Right, ok. What have we gotten to it?
SEKOFF: He went to Cairo. That was even more significant.
MCFARLAND: Ok, just tell me one thing we`ve got -- we haven`t gotten anything from this. We haven`t gotten European cooperation in Afghanistan. We didn`t get European cooperation in the bank bailout. What have we got in the Middle East?
Ok, in the Middle East we haven`t gotten any of those countries to step up to stop...
SEKOFF: I agree with you.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: He`s in office for nine months.
MCFARLAND: But he`s not running for prom king. He`s president, commander-in-chief.
BEHAR: Well, you know what, it`s not his fault he`s popular. You`re like the kid in high school that`s mad that the guy got -- she`s the prom queen and you`re not.
MCFARLAND: If he gets something for his popularity, I think it`s terrific. So far he hasn`t gotten anything that helps my country.
BEHAR: I`ll tell you well, listen to RNC Chairman Michael Steele, what he said. He used the win to try to make some money. This is brilliant. Oh. Ok.
Here`s a fund-raising letter that he sent. "It`s a stunning if not truly surprising indication of just how meaningless a once honorable and respected award has become. What has President Obama actually accomplished? Please support GOP elected officials by making a contribution of $25, $50, $100, $500 or $ 1,000 to the Republican National Committee today."
MCFARLAND: Hey, look I think he just seized it -- the carpe diem, if he can make some money off of it, terrific.
SEKOFF: Well, the anger works. We saw the day that Joe Wilson, the guy who yelled "You lie."
MCFARLAND: Oh right, right...
SEKOFF: He has made more money than he spent in his entire campaign since this yelling "You lie." But I will say that I agree with you that on the fact that there really is a danger for Obama now.
MCFARLAND: Yes, yes.
SEKOFF: ...particularly with Afghanistan. Right? He`s making the decision now...
MCFARLAND: Yes.
SEKOFF: ...is he going to go 15,000 more, is he going to go 40,000 more? And if we see a lot more civilian casualties and the inevitable bloodshed...
MCFARLAND: Yes.
SEKOFF: ...I think, remember the famous line that irony died when Henry Kissinger got the Nobel prize...
BEHAR: Exactly.
MCFARLAND: So wait a minute, I worked for Henry Kissinger for seven years.
SEKOFF: Didn`t you think that was ironic?
MCFARLAND: I think Henry Kissinger changed the world. We had an opening to China. We had the first ever Middle East...
(CROSS TALK)
SEKOFF: That`s what he got the Peace Prize for though. He got the peace prize for stopping and bombing people in Cambodia...
BEHAR: He was forgiven for Cambodia? Is that what you`re saying and he should get the Peace Prize? Oh come on, that`s like saying, ok, now (INAUDIBLE) is now becoming an advocate for nuclear disarmament.
MCFARLAND: Oh come on, come on Henry Kissinger...
(CROSS TALK)
MCFARLAND: ...China, Middle East...
BEHAR: Yes, exactly.
SEKOFF: You know, you don`t look good, no more, no more smacking around.
BEHAR: Ok, "Saturday Night Live" poked fun at the award. Listen to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Now, this prize bestowed by the Nobel committee in Norway is given annually to individuals who have made significant contributions to world peace. Jimmy Carter won it for decades of trying to find solutions to international conflicts. Al Gore won it for his years of educating U.S. about climate change.
And us, well, I won it for not being George Bush.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Good enough reason for me.
SEKOFF: But that is a serious point that you`re making.
MCFARLAND: Better start setting up a credibility gap.
BEHAR: What`s the point I`m making?
SEKOFF: You`re making the point that after eight years of dark, disengagement...
BEHAR: Yes.
SEKOFF: ...the world is saying, thank you.
BEHAR: Thank you, the sun is coming out.
SEKOFF: So, I mean, I think it`s premature but...
MCFARLAND: Well, I think is a premature...
SEKOFF: Yes.
MCFARLAND: ...unless he has some really substantive things to back up.
Ok, the world has now said, we are anointing you. We are expecting a lot of great things from you. What happens if he doesn`t get those great things?
BECAUSE: Well, because he`s not -- ok, that`s another story. That`s really beside the point in a way, he`s not a bully. Why can`t the right wing of your party understand that you can be diplomatic and not a bully and accomplish something? Why is that not in their discussion patterns?
MCFARLAND: No, I think that when you go back to Ronald Reagan where you say everybody...
BEHAR: But he`s dead KT move it along.
MCFARLAND: But Ronald Reagan was able to talk the talk and walk the walk and be gracious about it. I think President Obama was very gracious in his statement at the White House.
SEKOFF: Gracious? Wait, wait, wait.
MCFARLAND: Hey, come on, he knows he doesn`t deserve it. You know what he should do when he goes...
BEHAR: What? What?
MCFARLAND: When he goes, because Tom Friedman had a great article over the weekend saying that President Obama should go and when he accepts that award, he should say I`m accepting this on behalf of the American military.
BEHAR: Maybe he will do that.
SEKOFF: Well, right.
MCFARLAND: Then I hope he does.
SEKOFF: But that`s the point. I think they really were awarding the American ideal and that`s what Limbaugh was trashing and that`s what the RNC was trashing. That`s the problem.
Remember the little giddy dance they did when we didn`t get the Olympics?
MCFARLAND: Well, wait, wait...
BEHAR: You two have been doing fabulous. K.T., come back again.
MCFARLAND: We`re going to do this later.
BEHAR: I`m so glad to have you. Thanks to my guests.
A little later I`ll have a lot more to say about these right wing nuts and their attacks on Obama.
But up next: "Don`t Ask, Don`t Tell" under fire from gays and lady gaga. Oh, yes.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LADY GAGA, SINGER: Obama, I know that you`re listening. Are you listening?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was drunk and he cornered me in the editing room.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cornered you?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. And I backed him off. I told him I was married and he was embarrassed and he left.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You must have been really shocked.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I was. Believe me.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But nothing happened? Because nothing could have happened because you`re married?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Tom, I swear on my mother`s life.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You sure you want to do that?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: That was the scene from "Mad Men" where Sal, a closeted gay man is fired after a male client hits on him. That fictional show takes place in 1963, but the reality in 2009 is that gays are still discriminated against.
Thousands marched on Washington yesterday in protest and to ask Obama to keep his promises to the gay community. Joining me to discuss this are: Dan Savage, author and columnist; and Bryan Batt, openly gay actor, designer and activist.
Bryan, welcome to the show. I love the show.
BRYAN BATT, ACTOR, DESIGNER, ACTIVIST: Thank you.
BEHAR: I have to tell you, it`s so great.
(CROSS TALK)
BEHAR: It`s just -- I love it. That took place in 1963, that scene. Where you would be fired if you were gay on Madison Avenue, which is really shocking to me.
BATT: Very shocking. The sad thing is it can happen today. There are laws...
BEHAR: Do you think so?
BATT: Oh, yes.
BEHAR: But not on Madison Avenue? Not in the advertising industry?
BATT: No, not now but...
BEHAR: They`d have to fire everybody.
BATT: When you`re compared to the rest of the country -- compared to the rest of the country Madison Avenue isn`t that big of a street. There are a lot of other places where it could happen and still does happen, unfortunately. My character`s closeted, art director...
BEHAR: And married.
BATT: And married, which unfortunately still happens. You know people cannot -- we cannot still be ourselves. It`s very telling. You know, it reflects what`s happening today.
BEHAR: It`s so dangerous to be in that situation, because a lot of these men are on what they call the down low which is dangerous for the wives.
BATT: For the wives, the women in their live and the men -- they`re living -- it`s living a lie. It`s not what I was taught.
BEHAR: Saturday, president Obama addressed his seemingly slow progress on gay rights. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: My commitment to you is unwavering even as we wrestle with these enormous problems. And while progress may be taking longer than you would like as a result of all that we face -- and that`s the truth -- do not doubt the direction we are heading and the destination we will reach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Dan, we know that Obama is trying to get rid of "don`t ask, don`t tell." But why is he taking so long? He can just with a stroke of a pen get rid of it. What`s up?
DAN SAVAGE, AUTHOR, COLUMNIST: Do we know that he`s trying to get rid of "don`t ask, don`t tell"? Obama has the authority right now to suspend enforcement of "don`t ask, don`t tell" with a stop law order; 78 members of Congress sent him a letter asking him to do just that. They say they can`t because they`re governing a closely-divided country.
Wide majorities of Americans, liberals, Democrats, conservatives, Republicans, weekly churchgoers, support by supermajorities the repeal of "don`t ask, don`t tell". Obama faces no political blowback for suspending its enforcement while Congress works on a repeal. He won`t do it.
The speech on Saturday was great. We`ve heard it before. We heard it during the campaign. We heard it at the White House earlier this year after gay activists kicked up a fuss about Obama`s defense of the Defense of Marriage Act.
(CROSS TALK)
SAVAGE: We`re sick of hearing this speech. We want to see some movements, some action.
BEHAR: Barney Frank -- Barney Frank was quoted as saying all they did was all they did was make spots on the grass, that it`s a wait of time to go to Washington especially on the weekend where everybody is away.
SAVAGE: Barney frank is a national treasure and one of my heroes. I went to the march on Washington -- the gay march on Washington in 1987 and I made an impression on the grass and didn`t see my Congressman. But it changed me for the rest of my life and it was extremely empowering.
There`s a lot of ripples that emerge from a march like that, and it`s all over the newspapers today. These issues are being discussed because of the march.
You know how the news business works. You need a hook. We are with that hook that the march created. We`re discussing all these issues again and discussing really -- the gay community is holding Obama and his administration accountable for their inaction by dent of this march. So I disagree with Barney with all due respect.
BEHAR: Well, I was talking to Ms. Napolitano, the homeland security lady today at "The View" actually. She said that he`s dragging his feet because he wants it to be right.
SAVAGE: It is right.
BEHAR: That`s he`s not going to jump into it and just -- he wants to do it in the right way. That was her -- it was a very vague answer but that was her answer.
SAVAGE: Can I bring up something that Janet Napolitano did, herself? There`s something called the widow`s penalty where if you marry someone who`s an American citizen and you want to emigrate and your spouse -- your American spouse dies before your marriage is two years old, you will be deported.
BEHAR: Right. That`s terrible.
SAVAGE: This is a tremendous -- it`s really offensive and it`s unjust. Janet Napolitano has suspended enforcement of the widows` penalty while Congress works on changing the laws.
BEHAR: Now, why would she do that?
SAVAGE: So Janet Napolitano apparently has authority that Barack Obama doesn`t? It doesn`t make any sense.
BEHAR: Isn`t she gay?
SAVAGE: I never slept with her.
BATT: I`ve never slept with her.
BEHAR: You know what, guys? Neither have I. So who knows?
You also lose your social security if your spouse dies if you`re not married. You`re not really allowed if you go from state to state to be in the emergency room or in the O.R. and make decisions if you`re not married in a different state. If you`re married in Oklahoma, let`s say, that will never happen, but let`s say, and you get sick in Texas, the partner cannot come in to make a decision for you.
SAVAGE: There was just a case in Florida where a lesbian suffered a brain aneurysm when she was in Florida with her female partner and the three children that they had raised from birth -- they had been together more than two decades. The hospital barred the woman`s partner from her bedside as she died. She died alone in her bed without her children, her partner by her side.
They had domestic partnership, they had powers of attorney. All these forms were faxed to the hospital. The hospital wouldn`t let them to their bedside because they weren`t legally married. They said to this woman`s face, Florida is an anti-gay state.
BEHAR: Lovely, isn`t that nice?
BATT: Cruel. I see somebody owning the hospital.
BEHAR: Florida, you can`t trust a state that`s shaped like a penis.
Bryan, you were raised in a very conservative family.
BATT: I would say pretty conservative, New Orleans background.
BEHAR: Why do you think that people are against gay marriage?
BATT: I think it`s -- they just don`t understand it. I think people have a hard time wrapping themselves around a concept or something that they just don`t understand themselves. It`s a very selfish act, I think. It`s going to take time...
BEHAR: There`s a lot of things people don`t understand.
BATT: People didn`t want women to vote. People didn`t want blacks to have the same rights that whites do. But you know what? It`s what should happen.
BEHAR: Yes.
BATT: It does happen eventually. That`s why we supposedly elect officials that do the right thing, not necessarily the most popular thing because a lot of times the most popular thing is not right.
BEHAR: That`s right.
SAVAGE: Black people on the vote, women on the vote were constantly told whenever we are facing momentous social change that if we take this step that the sky is going to fall. The sky never falls.
Women get the vote and the republic endures. Jim Crow is done away with; segregation is done away with and the republic endures. We should stop paying attention to the people who predict social catastrophe whenever there`s civil rights progress because they`re always wrong.
BATT: True.
BEHAR: We certainly -- we don`t learn from history.
There is a rift within the gay movement, itself, right, Dan, between the younger and the older gays? The younger seem to be much more anxious to get this moving and the older are, like, well, he has a lot on his plate. Am I right?
SAVAGE: I`m 45 so I guess I`m officially older and I`m extremely impatient. There`s a lot of people out there. But certainly the younger generation feels entitled to their full civil rights. They`re no longer willing to play patty cake and wait. Those are a lot of the people out there in the streets in D.C. this weekend.
And they`re driving this movement. The power players and the people behind the scenes, and the Hilary Rosens and the Joe Solmoneses don`t speak for those people. Those people are going to make their own voices heard.
BATT: God bless them.
BEHAR: Thank you so much for coming on this show. Maybe they should take a page at the way the NRA lobbies and the AARP.
BATT: True.
BEHAR: Bryan thanks. Dan, I`ll see you again later.
But first, the youngest Baldwin joins me next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: My next guest is from Hollywood royalty. And he and his family play a big role in the breast cancer fight through the Carol M. Baldwin Breast Cancer Research Fund.
Joining me is actor Stephen Baldwin. Welcome to the show.
STEPHEN BALDWIN, ACTOR: Thank you.
BEHAR: If you`re Hollywood royalty, before we get to the cancer conversation, who`s the king of the family? Alec? Come on?
BALDWIN: Without question.
BEHAR: Without question, he`s the king?
BALDWIN: I just got asked the question if I ever seriously needed a large amount of money, who would I go to? I said, Alec. He`s got the most and it would probably be bail money and it would be at least $5 million. I`d have to go right to Alec.
BEHAR: All right. Your family`s very close. We`re talking about your mother`s illness. She survived cancer.
BALDWIN: Sure. 19-year survivor. Absolutely.
BEHAR: Must have been difficult with all the children to have a mother who was very ill with breast cancer. Tell us about that a little bit.
STEPHEN: Well, when my mom was diagnosed it was a year before my wedding, which I`ve been married 19 years. She didn`t say anything. Typical Baldwin dysfunction, she just kept her mouth shut and didn`t want to ruin the wedding. Oh, gosh, mom, thanks, now we find out you have breast cancer.
It was pretty far along. She eventually had a double mastectomy and has been a tremendous crusader ever since.
BEHAR: When was the Carol Baldwin fund started?
BALDWIN: Over ten years ago.
BEHAR: Ten years ago. What`s your part in the organization?
BALDWIN: There`s two chapters. There`s an upstate Syracuse organization and downstate Long Island organization.
Daniel and myself work on the upstate one. Alec and Billy do most of the stuff down in Long Island. Then we do lots of different do golf tournaments and events and black tie galas. Annually they have a motorcycle ride that mom puts on the old pink helmet and rides in the side car of a Harley Davidson.
BEHAR: Wacky group, but they`re fun, the Baldwins.
BALDWIN: Yes, you know.
BEHAR: They`re fun. Do you all get along with each other?
BALDWIN: Very well.
BEHAR: Do you ever fight with Alec politically? Because he doesn`t agree with you on politics.
BALDWIN: I`ll put it to you this way. We were hanging out a few months back. He said, who would ever thought? I said, what? Little Stephen, born again, conservative and Republican. I said, I`m a registered independent. He said, we all know you`re a Republican sympathizer.
You know...
BEHAR: You`re a born-again Christian, too, right?
BALDWIN: That`s correct.
BEHAR: Do you think God has helped your mother to get better?
BALDWIN: Oh, absolutely.
BEHAR: You do?
BALDWIN: I think God is sovereign and that he allows and doesn`t allow for things to happen. So if she`s still here, then I would say that it`s His will.
BEHAR: Really? See, I don`t understand that when people talk like that because there are a lot of bad things that happen in the world, too. Is God responsible for the bad as well as the good?
BALDWIN: No. God allows the bad.
BEHAR: Only the good.
BALDWIN: He allows the bad.
BEHAR: What do you mean he allows the bad?
BALDWIN: God allows the devil to do what he does.
BEHAR: Oh, the devil?
BALDWIN: Yes.
BEHAR: What does the devil look like?
BALDWIN: Do you have any children?
BEHAR: I do.
BALDWIN: Did you ever discipline them?
BEHAR: No.
BALDWIN: Never?
BEHAR: She never needed it. She was always a perfect child.
BALDWIN: Never once?
BEHAR: No, I didn`t. I don`t believe in the devil.
BALDWIN: You asked me before the program, was scared of you? When you do that, I get scared.
BEHAR: What are you scared of?
BALDWIN: You`re quite ferocious, Joy.
BEHAR: I`m ferocious? Alec is not afraid of me.
BALDWIN: Alec`s Alec. Come on.
BEHAR: I wish he`d come on the show more often.
BALDWIN: Has he not been on yet?
BEHAR: He hasn`t been on this show. He was on with me on "Larry King." But not...
BALDWIN: He`ll be on.
BEHAR: He`ll be on and he`ll talk about you if you want him to.
BALDWIN: He`ll say nothing but how much he loves me and how much fun we have.
BEHAR: Ok, kid, it was nice to have you. I hope I didn`t scare you too much.
BALDWIN: No, I survived.
BEHAR: I`m really a very nice person. I just have questions that I ask all the time. Thank you, Stephen.
Up next, another late-night host finds himself in hot water over an office romance.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: OK. First David Letterman is sleeping with staffers. Now it appears as though Jimmy Kimmel is dating a staffer. Is this office romance thing basically a showbiz phenomenon? Or does it go on everywhere? If so, why don`t we hear about dentists getting their groove on at the spit sink? And whose business is it anyway? Joining me to discuss the cons, pros and promotions of office relationships are sex columnist and editor of "The Stranger," Dan Savage. Leah Goldman of "Marie Claire" magazine and Nicole Williams, author of "Girl on Top.", your guide to turning dating rules into career success.
Well, the information is that Kimmel is going out with a co-head writer on the staff. She started as an assistant in 2003. So she was promoted, in six years she became one of the head writers. What do you think about that? Do you think it`s kosher what went on there or not?
NICOLE WILLIAMS, AUTHOR: You know what, honestly, I work with women all the time. We, 70 percent of our waking life is spent at work. Inevitably we`re going to meet someone at work who we are going to be attracted to. It`s a great -- from my perspective, a great place to vet out whether or not this is a potential romantic interest because you know a little something about their work ethic, their character.
LEAH GOLDMAN, FEATURES EDITOR MARIE CLAIRE MAGAZINE: The downside is the fact we`re talking about it, questioning her credentials and saying, you know, does it seem unseemly? You know, it lends credence to the fact it is unseemly and invariantly people are going to say, did she win it the old-fashioned way?
BEHAR: Well that`s right, she slept her way to the top.
GOLDMAN: No, I`m not saying that she did.
BEHAR: Do you think girls care if you ask the question? They`re making a big paycheck. What do they care?
WILLIAMS: Well, the problem is that their colleagues do. I mean the rest of the women in the office who don`t necessarily play that game are left wondering what they have to do to get ahead.
SAVAGE: Do we know that for sure, though?
WILLIAMS: Well, we`re talking about it now..
SAVAGE: We`re talking about it, but how did it come out? Remember the Letterman affair wasn`t revealed by disgruntled staffers who felt he was favoring the women he had affairs with at work. It was reveal by a disgruntled ex-boyfriend of somebody that he had had an affair with at work. So there doesn`t appear to be workplace discontent.
(CROSSTALK)
What`s up with Kimmel? How did that come out?
BEHAR: Wait a second. You don`t know, Dan, if everybody was -- if all those girls over there were disgruntled or not because they`re going to keep their mouth shut. They`re not going to start a war at the David Letterman show or a Kimmel show.
SAVAGE: We live in a litigious society where people quit jobs all the time.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: . cases and discriminations -- I just feel like if this had been going on at Letterman for 20 years and Letterman had been abusing this authority.
BEHAR: He`s not abusing.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: Promoting women, making it somehow conditional, there would have been a lawsuit before this guy attempted to.
WILLIAMS: That is not evidence there are shenanigans going on. You know of the few that are there, you know, he`s gone now through four of them, including his wife. I mean there are certain.
BEHAR: Have you ever been in an office romance?
GOLDMAN: Oh, yes, yes I have, Joy.
BEHAR: Tell me about it.
GOLDMAN: Yes and you know I was a subordinate, he was my boss. We.
BEHAR: Where was this?
GOLDMAN: In a restaurant, actually while I was putting my.
BEHAR: Oh, you were a waitress?
GOLDMAN: And while I was putting myself through school. Yes, and because we were working 24/7, we had a connection. And honestly.
BEHAR: So did he give you the better shifts?
GOLDMAN: Maybe. Yes, so to speak.
(LAUGHTER)
SAVAGE: Shift shaft, you know.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: Yes, I may have had some of those better shifts. You know what`s hard is, like, you don`t know initially when you`re attracted to someone in the workplace whether or not this is something worth really investing in. So you`ve got to explore it a bit and sometimes it does have that, you know, superior subordinate relationship before you figure out, yes or no and whether or not you`re going to quit the job or go to HR. There`s a lot of risk attached to this.
BEHAR: Don`t you think, Leah, that men -- also, Dan, don`t you think men are always going to be attracted to nannies and assistants and interns, besides the fact they`re dogs, besides that? The fact that these are underlings, men feel more powerful. Isn`t that the problem?
SAVAGE: And often women are attracted to these men. Power is, as Henry Kissinger said so many decades ago -- the ultimate aphrodisiac.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Look at him. Look at him. If you were him you would say...
SAVAGE: We shouldn`t infantilize women and make them out as if they are children.
GOLDMAN: Well, we shouldn`t infantilize men either and say they can`t keep their zips up.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I really like Dan`s point, though, because when NOW came out and sort of implying women are victims, that they are not consensually involved in romantic relationships at work, that it`s forced upon them, I sort of call BS on that.
BEHAR: It`s the girls not involved that get ticked off. Barack and Michelle met on the job. She was his superior. What do you think --
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: I think that`s hot. That`s what I think.
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: Apparently so did Barack.
GOLDMAN: But at the time they were both very low-level employees. He was an intern. She was managing interns. This is, like, bottom of the rung.
SAVAGE: OK, so where do you draw the line? Like if the intern is.
(CROSSTALK)
GOLDMAN: I draw the line there. I draw the line there.
SAVAGE: The boss has to go screw himself? Where do you draw the line? The question isn`t there power imbalances. The question is, office relationships, the question is -- is there a hostile workplace environment? Is there a quid quo pro? Are people being coerced? Are people being rewarded? If the answer to the questions is no, no harm, no fouls.
BEHAR: Well, does it happen in the gay community a lot, Dan? I mean mostly gay -- men on men (inaudible) is in Congress, it seems.
SAVAGE: I`m gay and I`ve been managing a large staff at The Stranger for years and I`ve actually never had a workplace romance. I think I might be only one of your guests today who is all theory and no practice.
BEHAR: Do you wish you did?
SAVAGE: No, not really. Maybe the one intern once upon a time, but I kept my hands to myself. I kept it zipped. So though I`m defending men who couldn`t keep it zipped, I kept it zipped.
BEHAR: Good for you. Here`s an interesting statistic from vault.com, whatever that is. (inaudible) vault.com. Every year, 8 million Americans enter into at least one romance at work. It`s widespread and it happens constantly.
GOLDMAN: All the time. And those are people who are reporting. What about those people who are not reporting? We`re pretty much all doing it.
SAVAGE: All those dentists who aren`t getting caught.
BEHAR: All those dentists. But what about -- isn`t it messy when the thing breaks up?
GOLDMAN: Oh, that`s the worst part. Isn`t that the worst part?
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: It`s not pleasant for anyone. Nobody likes to be in the conference room next to the guy they just, you know, had a thing with last weekend and now he`s off doing his own thing ?
BEHAR: What about the fact that the boss -- wait a minute, what about the boss always wins in that type of situation? She will be fired, not him?
WILLIAMS: Yeah.
BEHAR: So how do you respond to that, Dan?
SAVAGE: Well, I don`t think that`s always the case. You know, we always talk about worst case scenarios where it`s a real train wreck when it ends. Most workplace relationships end without anybody even being aware it began. Most workplace relationships are handled very discreetly because people are careful. We find out about the ones that we find out about and we don`t find out about the ones we don`t find out about.
BEHAR: So what do you think at the end of the day, what can we say? Is it OK to date a colleague or not?
GOLDMAN: Yes.
WILLIAMS: No, keep your finger in your own honey pot.
SAVAGE: I think it`s thin ice. And you have to judge these things on a case by case basis. But you are on thin ice and you have to be conscious of that.
BEHAR: My goodness knows how many more comedians are going to come out having --
(CROSSTALK)
WILLIAMS: I know we have an office pool going on at work.
BEHAR: Who do you think is next?
WILLIAMS: Well, no comment. But I mean, you know there`s some. And you must know like 20 people.
BEHAR: I know nothing.
(CROSSTALK)
SAVAGE: Joy, you have a show, Joy, you have staffers and writers and interns.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: Nothing happens at "The View." Nothing ever happens there. It`s all women. It`s estrogen-laden. You know, so nothing ever really goes on over there. But I`ve been in situations.
GOLDMAN: I see the way Elisabeth looks at you.
BEHAR: She just had a baby.
GOLDMAN: Yours?
BEHAR: So anyway, thank you so much for coming on, you guys, you were very interesting, all of you.
Coming up, something that`s been getting under my skin and I don`t need a flu shot for it.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: President Obama had a very full weekend. On Saturday he promised to end the military`s don`t ask/don`t tell policy and on Friday he won the Nobel peace prize. This guy is busier than the wall paper in my aunt rose`s living room. Not everyone was happy for him. Republicans cheer when he loses the Olympics and book when he wins the Nobel peace prize. Who`s writing the GOP`s press releases anyway? Mahmoud Ahmadinejad?
When will these people realize you can be civil and make political points? Mike Huckabee managed to be gracious about Obama`s win. John McCain, too. And he`s still pissed off from when Woodrow Wilson won his Nobel Prize.
Lastly, let me say a few words to President Obama, himself. Quit apologizing already. You won the thing fair and square. So can the humility act. Go to Norway, snatch up your piece of hardware and wave it in front of Rush Limbaugh`s face. If President Obama does manage to get equal rights for gay Americans, then I think he should win the Tony also. But that`s just me.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ED BEGLEY JR.: Richelle, I`m looking at you right now. You`re not cleaning panels. You`re sitting there sunning yourself.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you care?
BEGLEY: You`re blocking the panels. Not only are now not putting more power into the system, you`re taking it away.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Please, I`m barely shading anything.
BEGLEY: Come down from the roof.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I`m not coming down. You`re the one who brought me up here.
BEGLEY: Forget about doing anything. Just do no harm.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Forget it, dude.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Marital bliss. My next guest is an actor who wants to save the planet from the people living on it. The new season of his reality show "Living with Ed," debuts October 22nd on planet green. Please welcome environmental activist and actor extraordinaire, Ed Begley Jr.
BEGLEY: Joy, thanks for having me.
BEHAR: Was that a typical day at home or was that.
BEGLEY: Very typical. Richelle and I don`t see eye to eye, but she`s a great woman. We`re in love.
BEHAR: How long have you been in love?
BEGLEY: We met in 1993. We hit it off right away, and she actually does care about the environment, but she`s not at all willing to go to the lengths I`m willing to go, and, you know, I`d like to think I made her more of an environmentalist and she certainly made me more interested in things looking good. I lived in an environmental bunker before that. It was good on energy but it was not very good looking.
BEHAR: You know, you seem to be a do-gooder in terms of your position on the environment. Yet, people hate you. Rush Limbaugh doesn`t like you, for example. He ran over a cardboard cutout Ed on Leno`s show. Look at this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAY LENO: Ed Begley is going to jump out in front of him. You`re not doing your score any help. Oh, he`s hitting it again. Oh. Come on.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BEHAR: Why doesn`t he like you?
BEGLEY: He got me twice. I don`t know. I`m a conservative like him. I like to conserve energy. I`m just a different kind of conservative.
BEHAR: Well, he`s one of these people who denies global warming. I mean millions of scientists can say there`s global warming, but Rush Limbaugh says no, so you know.
BEGLEY: He thinks the jury is out on that. There`s lots of credible information. I urge anybody who`s curious about it not to get the information from me, I`m an actor, or from him, he`s a performer, too. Get it from peer reviewed studies, science magazine, nature magazine, Cornell University. Go to any university. I`ll roll the dice on any University you want to say and go there and get information from people with Ph.D after their name. Not me or Rush.
And when you come to my opinion which is there is serious concern about global warming. Way can do something that won`t make us go broke, by the way.
BEHAR: I know, it will be good for the economy if we do it right, I know.
BEGLEY: If we do it right.
BEHAR: But the BBC sited many sources, the BBC just did a story. What happened to global warming? And they`re basically saying that since 1998 the temperatures have not been hotter. They`ve gotten cooler.
BEGLEY: Cool compared to the hottest. Yes, they were hot, hot and getting hotter. And now it`s been cooling from that extremely hot period, yes.
BEHAR: Yeah. I mean, but how do you talk to the right wing about that when everybody gets up in the morning and they say, hey, its cold out? It`s not warm?
BEGLEY: Well that`s weather. There`s weather and then there`s global climate. The polar icecaps are melting. They`re not melting because it`s getting cooler. They`re melting because it`s getting warm in some places it shouldn`t be getting warm which are the polar regions. And we`re losing ice not just to kill Major Glacier National Park. You go to Alaska, you see the glaciers -- they`ve been taking pictures of this stuff for a while. And it`s really been receding greatly. You know.
BEHAR: What does it mean, what does it mean that they`re receding? What`s going to happen to us?
BEGLEY: Well, I think we`re going to be okay if we do things, again, that won`t break the bank. They have this theory, the whole theory for not doing anything, Joy, keep in mind, here`s the reason why not to do it, because we`re going to go broke doing it. Like they said we`d go broke cleaning up the air in California. You know, we are broke now in California in many States because of the subprime crisis but California prospered in many of the years from 1970 through 2005, California did well because there`s jobs making catalytic converters and combined cycle gas carbons --
BEHAR: But that`s a definitely, that`s definitely a good argument for the right wing. They always want to do -- make more jobs and more money. So why are they so resistant to this?
BEGLEY: Because they are afraid, with some justification, there will be jobs lost at oil and refineries. But there will be jobs created at making solar panels, wind turbines, and electric cars, and hybrid cars, and double pane windows and all this stuff. You know, I didn`t go broke in 1970 when I did this stuff because I did not behave in a fiscally irresponsible manner.
I didn`t buy solar panels I couldn`t afford. I did all the cheap and easy stuff I as a broke actor in 1970 did. We can do that now. You pick the low-hanging fruit first, you do the weatherization, you get a home energy audit, you do all that stuff you can afford now. But then make like dollars spent on solar panels and wind turbines are printed on flash paper - none of that is good for the economy. Of course, the people that work at a wind turbine factory will go to the store to and buy things and they`ll pay rent and do all the things that people do with money. You know jobs in the oil industry are good jobs. Jobs in green tech are somehow bad and printed on invisible paper.
BEHAR: I don`t know if people know what you`re talking about, you know what I mean. I`m not sure like - and you`re an extreme version of trying to create your own environment, correct?
BEGLEY: Right.
BEHAR: In your home, for instance I read that you ride your bike to power your toaster. Do your kids pretend they don`t know you when they see you doing that?
(LAUGHTER)
BEGLEY: It`s just -- it doesn`t really power the toaster. We did that for an illustration. But if you`re going to ride an exercise bike, if it`s a smoggy day or rainy day -- I rarely ride the exercise bike. I`m usually riding to get somewhere. But if it`s a cloudy day or smoggy day, why would I then, you know, waste that energy? That energy goes into the batteries where the solar is stored. So the point I`m trying --
BEHAR: Right, you`re wasting the effort if you don`t at least get something going.
BEGLEY: I`m getting something out of it. That`s the energy going like this; why not use that for something? And the point of the jobs is jobs create wealth and there`s a job and money coming from the green tech industries and a lot of them are doing very well. And that`s the point I was trying to make.
BEHAR: And you save a lot of money because my spies tell me your annual electric bill is up from $300 to $400. How do you live with yourself?
BEGLEY: And it`s not just in electric bill. Thank you. I`m proud of that. And it`s not just my house that`s running on that, my family. It is also, you know, lighting all the lights for the show, "Living with Ed," and it`s also driving an electric car 10,000 miles a year. So that`s the $400 doesn`t just represent three people living at home, but it is a car going 10,000 miles a year to fuel that for $400, fueled by that solar energy.
BEHAR: It`s complicated what you`re saying. You know, we have to try to make it accessible to everybody.
BEGLEY: Let`s make it simple. I`m getting all the gasoline, if you will, that I`m buying, which is electricity and I am running a house for $400 a year. Let me make it simple. I`m fueling my car and powering my house for $400 a year.
BEHAR: You still stay married. It`s unbelievable, that`s the beauty of it.
BEGLEY: I don`t know how she puts up with it.
BEHAR: OK, we`re going to come back - we`re going to have more with Ed Begley Jr. when we return.
Tomorrow on the program I`m going toe to toe with Orly Taitz. Remember her? She`s the leader of the birther movement. I hope she`s legal. Don`t miss this one.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BEHAR: I`m back with Ed Begley Jr., we`re talking about saving the world. A small thing.
BEGLEY: Well, saving our species, many other species. The world is going --
BEHAR: What do you think of overpopulation? I mean these people having 8, 9, and 15. This family, the Duggars, she`s having her 19th child. Okay they can afford to have them apparently and that seems to be okay. To me, that`s an enormous carbon footprint.
BEGLEY: It is. We can get away with a lot when therefore a lot fewer people. When there are a billion people on the planet, there`s a lot more wiggle room. Now that there`s over 6 billion - we have to behave differently if there`s just this amount of people in this room, we can move around in, but when there`s 150 billion people in this room, you have to excuse me -- can I go over there please, would you hand me that. Things get - you have to behave differently.
BEHAR: Would you hand me that piece of bread is more of the point?
BEGLEY: Exactly.
BEHAR: I used to have a sociology teacher back in the day who said that there were too many people to love. That was part of the problem that we were going to have. With overpopulation in the world is one of the main issues in the world.
BEGLEY: That`s where - that`s at the root of all this. Overpopulation is at the root of all -
BEHAR: Should these people practice birth control or what?
BEGLEY: I think it`s a good idea.
BEHAR: There`s an epidemic.
BEGLEY: I don`t want to dictate how many people anybody has. But I think it`s a prudent idea to have as few children as possible.
BEHAR: Me too. Limit.
BEGLEY: That`s a good idea.
BEHAR: I think so too. Let me give you, like, this fast quiz. Which is greener? Dow Chemical or Monsanto?
BEGLEY: That`s a tough one. You know, Monsanto has a lot of stuff that they`re into that I`m not fond of in genetically modified organisms and what have you, I`m all for testing this stuff from the lab. But to release some of these GMOs out into the environment is quite dangerous, and I don`t think that`s a good idea.
BEHAR: So, neither one is great. Okay. What about paper or plastic?
BEGLEY: Neither. You take your canvass bag. If they say paper or plastic, you say neither and you hand them your canvass bag. And they fill them up, and they are very easy to carry.
BEHAR: What about paper cups, no good?
BEGLEY: I prefer a mug. If you`re out somewhere and you don`t have your mug with you -- you don`t want to travel around with a heavy mug -- you cause more fuel for the airline to use to travel if everybody carried mugs around.
(CROSSTALK)
BEHAR: That is annoying. That`s very annoying, all those mugs.
BEGLEY: You can`t travel around with a mug. You`re better off when you travel to not use a mug.
BEHAR: If someone had a gun to your head and you could only use one appliance, what would it be?
BEGLEY: If I could only use one appliance? Oh, can I call a bicycle an appliance?
BEHAR: No.
BEGLEY: OK. An appliance -- a gun to my head.
BEHAR: Dish washer, refrigerator, toaster, washing machine. You had to pick one, otherwise people would kill you.
BEGLEY: Only one single appliance?
BEHAR: Yeah.
BEGLEY: I guess I`d have a hot plate hooked up to my solar panel so I could cook something.
BEHAR: Very sneaky. That was sneaky. What about your clothes? How would you wash your clothes? Down the river?
BEGLEY: I would go down to the river.
BEHAR: Go down to the river. What if you live in a landlocked area without water?
BEGLEY: I`d get real funky, quick.
BEHAR: And sometimes you see these oil spills, which I find that tragic when I see those poor birds. I hate that. Is there a green way to clean oil spills up?
BEGLEY: Yes, people have experimented with lots of different ways. There are different organic ways. People have brought many of them. I don`t know how many of them really work. Ways to clean up oil spill. But the best way is to not have so much oil in a dangerous situation, like an off shore dairy.
BEHAR: Before we go, I want to clean this table. Because it`s annoying me and this is your stuff.
BEGLEY: Listen to this woman, you are wonderful.
BEHAR: See this is your new stuff. It`s a shameless plug. But now I can -- look at yourself, how stunning you are.
BEGLEY: You`re stunning, looking at you doing this. Begley`s best, a nontoxic cleaning product.
BEHAR: There you go, see that. I did a little ad for you. Thank you, Ed.
BEGLEY: Thank you. Joy, you are awesome.
BEHAR: Thanks to Ed and all my guests for joining me tonight. And thank you for watching. Good night, everybody.
END
