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Court Orders Jon Gosselin to Return Money to Joint Account

Aired October 13, 2009 - 20:00:00   ET


NANCY GRACE, HOST: Breaking news tonight. A million-dollar mansion, a TV deal, personal stylists, a fleet of luxury cars, beautiful people, eight beautiful children -- they had it all! Tonight, allegations of Daddy siphoning the very last drop of the family`s money to support all his girlfriends and his lavish lifestyle, siphoning to the tune of a quarter million dollars, allegations of illegal wiretapping, phone taps, bank account, computer surveillance by Daddy, a known computer specialist, charges of drug use, X-rated sleepovers with a female bartender Daddy allegedly hired to babysit in the home with the children asleep upstairs! And that`s the tip of the iceberg.

Bombshell tonight. Just hours ago, Gosselin in court claiming wife Kate secretly stashing $1 million. And after Gosselin rides that gravy train for years, putting his children on TV, now claiming he no longer wants them, quote, "exposed." Is that because the show`s now "Kate plus 8," not "Jon & Kate Plus 8"? Both tell the judge the other`s a deadbeat, welching on child support. The judge brings down the hammer. Didn`t we all know it would end in court someday? Is Daddy headed to the big house?


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: What happened today? Can you tell us?

JON GOSSELIN, "JON AND KATE PLUS 8": I don`t know. I`ve never been in court before.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you going to provide the accounting that the arbitrator says, Kate?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There`s Kate`s side. She says that Jon took $230,000 out of a joint account.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`ve left your children and their mother unable to pay for the roof over their head. It`s not acceptable.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Jon claims he only took $22,000 out.

JON GOSSELIN: She`s making claims that she can`t back up. If she said I took $230,000, where`s the bank statement to prove it? That`s "He said, she said."

GRACE: No! No! No! It is not a "He said, she said."

He can`t tell us his last withdrawal?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is the money going to go back into the accounts, Jon? Or what (INAUDIBLE) today. Did you guys talk about that at all?

GRACE: You can`t have it both ways. You can`t make all this money putting your kids on TV, and then now when she`s making the money, say, Uh- uh, uh-uh! It doesn`t work like that.

JON GOSSELIN: It`s not about the money. It`s about getting my kids off of TV. I feel that my kids...

GRACE: Why was it OK when you did it?

JON GOSSELIN: Because I wasn`t -- I wasn`t -- I feel now empowered.

GRACE: Broke?

JON GOSSELIN: No, I`m not broke. I`m not broke at all.


GRACE: And tonight, Mommy at a local LA bus stop waiting for the bus, her 3-year-old little boy asleep beside her. The bus pulls up, Mommy gets on, drives away, leaving baby alone at the bus stop! She never comes back. Sex predators, stalkers, dope addicts -- who knows who`d show up on the next bus? But Mommy didn`t care. She just kept on riding.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Los Angeles police are investigating the case of a 3-year-old boy abandoned at a bus stop in the middle of the night whose mother is now missing. Three-year-old Xavier Nelson (ph) was left by an unidentified woman at a South Los Angeles bus stop after midnight on Friday.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: LAPD released this video to the media in hopes someone would recognize this toddler, and someone did. Angela Thomas (ph) says her mother called her from the Southland, saying she saw her grandson on TV.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: My heart dropped. I was about to cry not just because I saw him, because of the story that they were telling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A witness observed the child sitting next to a woman when the bus arrived. The woman then got onto the bus and left the child behind. The witness yelled to the woman to tell her she forgot the boy, but the woman just waved him off.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Angela says the last time she saw her daughter, Victoria Nelson (ph), and grandson Xavier was a week ago.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The grandmother says 17-year-old Victoria may be in danger and could have been forced to abandon her child.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Victoria would never, ever put her child in harm`s way like that. She would never do that, unless there was a reason and the reason was somebody has caused harm on her.


GRACE: Good evening. I`m Nancy Grace. I want to thank you for being with us. A quarter million dollars gone, allegations of illegal wiretapping, hacking into bank accounts, hacking into cell phones, claims of X-rated sleepovers with the eight children asleep upstairs? "Jon & Kate Plus 8" -- it had to end in court.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All eyes on a Montgomery County, Pennsylvania, courtroom, where these charges Kate Gosselin has brought forward...

KATE GOSSELIN, "JON AND KATE PLUS 8": He took $230,000 of the $231,000 that we have liquid. And I have a stack of bills in my purse I can`t drop in the mail.

JON GOSSELIN: She claims that we don`t have money. She has 11 other bank accounts. She made a million dollars off her book. For her to call me a criminal by stealing money that she thinks I stole, I mean, it`s just -- it`s gotten so ridiculous.

KATE GOSSELIN: There are very good aspects of being a control freak. I persevere. I will not lay down and die.

JON GOSSELIN: I took less than 10 percent, less than 10 percent since March until now, less than 10 percent. Where is the $2 million -- $2 million?

GRACE: What`s important is the children and not these two self- absorbed husband and wife who argue constantly in front of their children.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Exactly. That`s why they`re coming off...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That`s why the show is coming to a stop.

GRACE: Why don`t you quit arguing and work on your marriage?


GRACE: Wouldn`t that be a better idea?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The abysmal behavior on the part of both of these parents, and particularly Jon, is revictimizing these children on a regular basis. The whole world`s watching this thing absolutely aghast.

JON GOSSELIN: Please, people, stop interfering in our lives. We know what`s best.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you feel he`s abandoning his kids by moving to New York City?

GRACE: I don`t understand why he`s not living down the street. If he`s got to get a divorce, if you two can`t work it out, why do you want to move away to New York and be that far away from your children?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you feel like you need to be in New York and not...

JON GOSSELIN: I`m in New York because I have business in New York. I have contacts in New York. I`m proceeding to do other career things. I mean, if I had to buy a hotel room, you know, no one`s flipping (ph) the bill for that. I mean, it`s expensive enough. You know, I have to move further with my career to afford my kids, as well.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Do you think joint custody will work for Jon and Kate?

GRACE: I hope it does because even if we disapprove of the way he`s behaved, those children love him and they need their father.


GRACE: Both parties in court just hours ago, and it ain`t pretty! Straight to Maxine Page, senior news editor, Radaronline. Maxine, what happened?

MAXINE PAGE, RADARONLINE.COM (via telephone): They met today at Judge Arthur Tilson`s (ph) quarters, and they met privately. Jon was ordered to pay back $180,000 that he`d taken from their joint savings account, and Kate was ordered to account for $55,000 that she took, that she says was for household bills and expenses.

GRACE: So let me get this straight. Unleash the lawyers, Susan Moss, Raymond Giudice, Richard Herman. He is ordered to pay back nearly $200,000, and she is ordered to account for money. What about it, Sue Moss?

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY: Return the cash or face a backlash. Look, when you start off a case by stealing money, everyone thinks you`re a stealer. This was the worst possible move for Jon, not only PR world but also in terms of his divorce custody because no one`s going to trust him. No one`s going to trust his word and no one`s going to trust his actions.

GRACE: Back to Maxine Page, senior news editor, Maxine, so he`s ordered to pay back the 180 grand. Did he try to explain to the judge why he took the money?

PAGE: He said that it amounted to his paycheck, that he hasn`t withdrawn any money and that it`s basically what he`s owed for the work that he`s done with TLC.

GRACE: Jane Velez-Mitchell, host of HLN`s "ISSUES," author of "I Want." Jane, what can you tell me?

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, "ISSUES": Well, the big question, Nancy, is does he still have the 180 grand? We know he lives a very lavish lifestyle. He has two fancy cars, a BMW and a Mercedes. He also has a bachelor pad that`s kind of expensive. He also has flown across the pond. He`s been in the south of France, popping champagne. He has girlfriends. He has a very lavish "Lifestyles of the Rich & Famous" kind of lifestyle. So if he`s blown the money, how will he get it back? Because if he doesn`t return it, he will be held in contempt of court.

GRACE: What about it, Clark Goldband?

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER: ... struck back in his own court filing, saying Kate is hiding at least $1 million worth of the family`s money, and he wants to know where it is, Jon Gosselin also saying Kate hasn`t paid over $7,500 per month in child support for some months, and he wants to know where she`s been spending her money.

GRACE: OK. Let me get this straight. Back to you, Maxine Page. So both of them have to pay $7,500 a month child support? The mom and the dad both have to pay child support, correct?

PAGE: Correct. They pay it into the joint account, and then they draw the household expenses from that account.

GRACE: We are taking your calls live. But first I want to introduce a special guest joining us tonight. She`s joining us from CNBC. It`s Suze Orman, financial expert, best-selling author. I can`t say enough about her. You can see her every Saturday night, CNBC.

Suze, what should they have done? Other than allegedly bringing home the bartender and sleeping with her upstairs while the children are somewhere else and buying the girlfriend a Porsche SUV, things like that, just the obvious. You can skip over that.

But what should they have done so this would not end in court? And Suze Orman, I don`t understand. To me, it`s a simple matter. You bring in the checks and you say, See? I`ve been paying my child support. Why are we having to argue about this?

SUZE ORMAN, FINANCIAL EXPERT: Here`s the thing. When it comes to money, when you`re in a state of hate, Nancy, people do absurd things. They do not do logical things. They never will. So the truth of the matter is, for the people watching this right now -- on some level, I actually don`t care what Jon -- what they all do. I care what people in America are going to do with their own money, and they need to look at this as an example.

You need to set up separate accounts. You need to have a joint account, but you can never put yourself in a position where somebody can take money from your account. And if you set up an account as joint tenants with right of survivorship, one person can rob the other account totally clean! It doesn`t matter!

GRACE: OK, Suze, wait a minute.

ORMAN: So don`t do that to people!

GRACE: What about all the confusion? I`ve got a checking, a savings, and a college fund for the twins. Boom. Why do they have 12 accounts between them?

ORMAN: Well, first of all, they have eight children, correct?

GRACE: Right.

ORMAN: Now, the real thing is, how do we know that the money that those kids earned -- because those kids earned money, Nancy. Where is that money? That money should actually be set up in such a way, truthfully, one for each kid, that neither Jon nor Kate can take it out without both signatures.


JON GOSSELIN: I`ve learned my lessons. I know I made mistakes. I`m apologizing for them now on national television. Because I am a public figure, I realize that now, that I do have to apologize to the public, as well as to Kate and to my kids. When I get home, I will apologize to her.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How was it seeing Kate in the court?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You`re clenching your jaw, Jon.

JON GOSSELIN: Because it`s cold out.

GRACE: Why is this always about you? Why are we talking about you? She asked you about your children.

JON GOSSELIN: I don`t know. I just -- I just thought, you know, you needed...

GRACE: Well, it`s a good place to start.

JON GOSSELIN: I did not take $230,000. I took $22,000. I have nothing to hide.

KATE GOSSELIN: The tabloid and the whole media mess always makes it worse than it is.

GRACE: For years, Jon, you had your children on TV on a reality show, but suddenly, when it`s no longer "Jon & Kate Plus 8," it`s "Kate Plus 8," you suddenly have a problem with it and you want it to all come to an end, and I don`t believe that.

JON GOSSELIN: Regardless of the timing, I`m their father, and I will do what`s best for my children.

KATE GOSSELIN: I know that personally for myself and the kids, this has been a good experience. It continues to be a good experience.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The timing is irrelevant...

GRACE: Oh, you`ve got your lawyer here?


GRACE: You`re afraid to answer questions? Whatever.

KATE GOSSELIN: Remember, the kids are just playing in front of the cameras.

JON GOSSELIN: Now she`s thinking that the American public`s going to believe her over me? I had to defend myself in that.

GRACE: If you two can`t work it out, why do you want to move away to New York and be that far away from your children?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Why do you feel like you need to be in New York and not...

JON GOSSELIN: I`m in New York because I have business in New York. I have contacts in New York. I`m proceeding to do other career things. I mean, if I had to buy a hotel room, you know, no one`s flipping the bill for that.

We have a corporate account, what she`s talking about, and we have a housing account. Both have checking and savings. The corporate account is where my TLC paycheck goes to, and every week, I withdraw from that account, just like anyone else would. I have the proof right here that I only took $22,000, which is my paycheck.

In arbitration she was supposed to account for $470,000 that she hasn`t accounted for. So she disobeyed a court order.

She claims that we don`t have money? She has 11 other bank accounts. She made a million dollars off her book.

Let me also say that I pay $7,500 per month for the kids, utilities, two mortgages, and everything else that needs to be paid. And she`s not even talking about that account.


GRACE: What he failed to mention is that she`s paying the same amount of child support that he is. And not only that, Suze Orman, financial guru on CNBC, best-selling author, did you see him just then? Tell Mary Hart, who was so not believing it -- did you see her going, Uh-huh, uh-huh? He just said, I only took $25,000 when a judge ordered...

ORMAN: From his corporate account. From his corporate account.

GRACE: And the judge ordered him today to pay back $180,000.

ORMAN: So here`s the point. You look at this man. Obviously, we can all think whatever we want to think about him. But there was a point, Nancy, when Kate looked at him and said, I love you, I love you, I trust you, let`s have babies together. And that`s true with everybody throughout the United States. You look at somebody, you say, I love you, and you trust them.

I`m telling you, everybody watching us right now, don`t think this can`t happen to you. Not to the magnitude of what you see happening with Jon and Kate, but you have got to know where your money is. You have to have separate accounts. You have to really have an understanding so that this can never happen to you because Jon can be anybody that you know, believe it or not.

GRACE: OK. We`re taking your calls live. But first take a look at what Kate had to say on NBC "Today."


KATE GOSSELIN: The last thing I wanted was to do this show and end up not being able to pay my bills. So I put money aside, willingly brought it forward and split it with him when we had our meeting. So he took the $50,000 and did whatever with it. I paid bills with my $50,000. And once the court arbitrator stepped in, I felt like the money -- I had to put it back. I didn`t feel like it would be safe, to be honest. And...


GRACE: Straight to the lines. To Brenda in Utah. Hi, Brenda.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Hi. Thank you for taking my call.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. What`s your question?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I don`t like either one of them, but I do think that people are being a lot nicer to her than they are to him. I think they`re both despicable. But do the children have guardian ad litem to protect them? Because neither one of them are protecting the children.

GRACE: Excellent question. Let`s go back to the lawyers, Sue Moss, Raymond Giudice, Richard Herman. What about it, Herman? I have heard nothing about a guardian ad litem being appointed for the children simply for their interests.

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I haven`t heard, either. And they have to have one because they`re generating fees based on the program, so there has to be some sort of guardian ad litem. But these two train wrecks, Nancy, I believe they staged this. They survive on publicity. He`s going to put the money back. They`re in the news today. They`re going to generate money. This is the only way they could generate money. They have no skills. They have no talent. This is it.

GRACE: Giudice?

RAYMOND GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Well, I agree with Richard. And I also agree with Ms. Orman. There should have been trust accounts set up for these children`s education, future, not just random checking accounts where there`s not some...

GRACE: Put the lawyers up. Put the lawyers up. I notice that both of you defense lawyers, neither one of you are tackling the potential criminal charges!

HERMAN: You can`t (INAUDIBLE) your own money, Nancy. He walked out of court on his own. He`s going to pay that back. If he doesn`t, he may have criminal contempt. You can`t steal your own money.

GRACE: As I was saying before I was so rudely interrupted -- hacking into cell phone accounts, computer accounts, checking accounts...

HERMAN: Allegations.

GRACE: ... text messaging. To Mike Brooks. Wouldn`t that qualify as a felony?

MIKE BROOKS, FORMER D.C. POLICE, HLN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: It depends on the law in the particular state, Nancy. It may. It may not. They are husband and wife. It`s not like it`s boyfriend-girlfriend stalking each other.


GRACE: Jon and Kate need to go into therapy and learn to quit arguing and set a good example for the children.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How do you feel? Do you feel like your kids need therapy? Are you seeing any problems?

JON GOSSELIN: Well, I`m not a professional, but the hardest thing I ever did was tell them that we were getting a divorce.




JON GOSSELIN: Do you want it to stop or do you want it to continue? Do you want everything to be drudged up and embarrassing for your kids and embarrassing for you? Please, Kate, just let`s get off of television and go mediate. What`s the big deal? What`s there to hide?

KATE GOSSELIN: My true nature is to freak out about everything. Everything`s a big drama. Everything...


GRACE: And he`s saying that directly into a TV camera. To Dr. Joseph DelTito, professor of psychiatry. Doctor, what do you make of it?

JOSEPH DELTITO, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: Well, these people wouldn`t be on the menu if the audience didn`t have an appetite for them. And I think the more interesting thing is...

GRACE: So you`re blaming the audience? You`re blaming the audience? I didn`t ask you for a commentary on America. I asked you about...

DELTITO: OK. What do I think about them? I think that these are lowlife people without...

GRACE: No, professionally. Professionally.

DELTITO: Professionally, it`s unclear to say that they`re people who have formal personality disorders, but people get caught up in the celebrity. Money often corrupts. This whole situation has become corrupted by people who have let it happen, although with tremendous societal forces behind them. And it`s unfortunate for the children. In fact, it`s criminal for the children and I consider it child abuse.

GRACE: Now, why do you consider this child abuse?

DELTITO: Because what`s going to happen to these kids? They go to school. They have cousins. They have friends. How are they going to be treated? Who`s going to tell them about Daddy`s girlfriend? Who`s going to make fun of them because of something that their mother does? This is going to follow them throughout their whole life, or at least, let`s say, the next 10 or 20 years in all likelihood. This isn`t good.


JON GOSSELIN: My kids are coming off TV. I`m not the bad guy here. I`m the one trying to protect my children. That`s called being a parent. I`m protecting my children. I need to pull them off of television so we can work this out.




JON GOSSELIN, "JON & KATE PLUS EIGHT" REALITY STAR: They love the camera crew. They love all those guys. They make nicknames for them. You know, the PAs, the production assistants there. They play with the kids. We all get along and play together. And it`s like a family environment.

That`s how we work together. It`s comfortable for the kids to film. That way there`s no animosity. I mean, that`s the way it is.

NANCY GRACE, HOST: You put your children on television for years but now suddenly you stick a sign on the house that says, "You can`t film here anymore?" Is it because it used to be "Jon & Kate Plus Eight" but now it`s "Kate Plus Eight" and you`re not making any more money?

J. GOSSELIN: Absolutely not. I will always make money, and I`m not doing it for the money. I`m doing it to restore family values. I`m doing it.

GRACE: Say what?

J. GOSSELIN: I`m doing it to restore family values. I want to.


GRACE: I never thought I`d hear Gosselin say he`s restoring family values. Now that`s a whole other nut to crack. But it`s not just a poster anymore. Both sides in court just hours ago duking it out in front of a judge, and Gosselin files a cease and desist order to TLC to stop filming.

I want to go to Dr. Laura Jana, pediatrician, author of "Heading Home with Your Newborn: From Birth to Reality." We see the children acting out more and more. What effect is this having on them?

DR. LAURA JANA, M.D., PEDIATRICIAN (via phone): You know, Nancy, excuse my lack of voice here. But I certainly have something to say. You know, I think Suze said it best. These poor children are living in a state of hate now. And that`s never a good environment for children to be raised in.

When we`re talking about signs that may -- you know, we may see with the children, acting out is certainly one of them, some physical signs, headaches, stomach aches, problems with eating and sleeping. All those things can be the result of the stress that comes with living in that hateful environment.

GRACE: Out to the lines, Krystal in Massachusetts. Hi, Krystal.

KRYSTAL, CALLER FROM MASSACHUSETTS: Hi, Nancy. I`m so honored to be finally getting through to speak to you.

GRACE: Well, Krystal, I`m honored that you called in. Thank you. What`s your question, dear?

KRYSTAL: Actually, I have a comment and a question.


KRYSTAL: My comment is basically it`s amazing to me that they have this type of money to even be arguing about from showing their kids on TV. And I do think it`s going to be horrible for them as they get older.

But my question is in court is it actually -- did it have to be proven to the judge where these children`s money is? I would think that would be important to the judge.

GRACE: I agree. Out to child advocate, Susan Moss. Explain.

SUSAN MOSS, FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY & CHILD ADVOCATE: Absolutely. That`s probably not coming up in the first instance because they`ve got some emergencies here to deal with, AKA the missing money and getting the missing money back.

But as this case progresses what the judge is going to do, or in this case the arbitrator, is going to look to see what happened to the children`s money. Is it being segregated? Is it being wrongfully included with the parents` money? And if that is in fact the case, then you`re really going to see some criminal prosecution.

GRACE: To Jane Velez-Mitchell, HLN host of "ISSUES." Jane, I -- he said to my face that he had business in New York. You know, apartments in New York, a tiny apartment that`s this big is about the same amount that you would pay in other cities for a four-bedroom, three-bath with a backyard, with a while picket fence around it.

OK? So he has a New York apartment, a nice -- a nice crash pad. All right? It`s a pretty good crib there. So what business? What business does he have? What job does he have? He`s not on the show anymore.

JANE VELEZ-MITCHELL, HOST, HLN`S "ISSUES"; AUTHOR, "I WANT": He doesn`t have a job, and they`ve stopped taping. And of course you saw that sign, that infamous sign, where it`s like you`re not going to tape here, TLC. And I think that`s the whole essence of this struggle, is that he doesn`t want to be cut out from the show. So he.

GRACE: He may be cut out from the money.

VELEZ-MITCHELL: . is using his kids as a -- he`s using his kids as a bargaining tool to either get a payoff or to get back on the show. That`s my theory.

GRACE: To senior news editor,, Maxine Page, I do know that he is making a multitude of personal appearances for money. In fact, this past weekend he was at Millions of Milkshakes. It`s a milkshake stand in West Hollywood. I believe they`ve named a milkshake after him.

Now, Maxine, take my word for it. He did not show up for free.

MAXINE PAGE, SR. NEWS EDITOR, RADARONLINE.COM (via phone): Oh, there`s no way he was there for free. He`s been turning up all over the place. He`s been in Vegas. It`s a media blitz recently. I think it`s one of the main reasons that Kate`s lawyer has filed for alimony and child support because they want to know where this money`s going.

GRACE: Now it`s my understanding also, Clark Goldband, he`s also on the story, that he wants alimony from her. You know, that`s pretty uncommon that the man gets alimony from the mother.

CLARK GOLDBAND, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: That`s exactly right, Nancy. And in fact, we`re talking about money that Jon says he`s owed and hasn`t been paid over some months. Jon Gosselin also saying that in fact all the money is not being accounted for.

And Nancy, he is really honing in on small details against Kate in his latest court filing where he strikes back, in fact, even saying Kate owes $60,000 from this, took $5,000 from this. So really going after her tit for tat.

GRACE: To Samantha, South Carolina, hi, Samantha.


GRACE: What`s your question, dear?

SAMANTHA: I was wondering -- my question is on Kate, how she went on the "Today Show" and complained that she couldn`t pay for her bills? How could she not make enough money to pay her bills, even with the $230,000 missing?

GRACE: Suze Orman, could it be true?

SUZE ORMAN, SPEAKS OUT & TAKES YOUR CALLS LIVE ON JON & KATE FINANCIAL WARS: It could be true. But I just don`t think so. I think she was being incredibly dramatic there. She only has $1,000 left and she couldn`t even pay the bills that were in her purse. Oh, give me a break. She has many accounts. She has said so.

Don`t tell me that she didn`t have money somewhere to be able to pay those bills. But it sure made great TV, didn`t it?

GRACE: Sarah in Virginia, hi, Sarah.


GRACE: Hi, dear. What`s your question?

SARAH: Yes. I`ve watched this show, "Jon & Kate," all the time. And everybody`s down on Jon. Has everybody forgot about how she mistreated Jon all through that show?

GRACE: You know what, Sarah? I`ve had a lot of people bring that up. But my concern, Sarah, is not who was the good guy or the bad guy in the marriage. All right? My concern is, is there criminal wrongdoing and will all this jiggering of the money somehow affect the children? And my guess is it will.

You know, I`ll give it to you, Sarah in Virginia. She was not always nice to him. All right? There. Does that change anything? You`re seeing video of "Jon & Kate Plus Eight" on TLC.

I want to talk about, very quickly, Mike Brooks, former fed with the FBI, headline, HLN law enforcement analyst. I want to talk about how he could have -- and he is an IT, information technologist.


GRACE: Was for the state of Pennsylvania. So he`s no idiot. How can someone hack in to a computer -- they`re separated. All right? They`re divorcing.

BROOKS: Right.

GRACE: It`s not like they`re man and wife living together any more. And I don`t know if even then you can lawfully hack into somebody else`s e- mail, their cell phone, their checking account. But how do you do that? So he gets an e-mail notification every time she gets an e-mail, sends an e-mail. He knows about all of her texts. At least that`s what one of his girlfriends claims he told her.

BROOKS: Exactly. That`s a claim. But Nancy, if he had her sign on, let`s say for her cell phone number which also would include the text messaging. He can go in, take a look at the calls, how long they lasted, look at the text messaging, on where the text came, how long that lasted. And back and forth. And then do a little bit of searching.

It doesn`t take much. On the number, he can find out who she`s talking to.

GRACE: But wait a minute.

BROOKS: Now it`s going to be difficult to see exactly what was said unless you get a subpoena and go to that particular carrier. But when it comes to the bank accounts, you know, he`s an IT, you can go in and just over and over again look for different passwords and change it. A lot of people are good at figuring that out, and if he is an IT specialist.

GRACE: OK, just let me stop you, Mike.


GRACE: What the claim is, is that he could read all of her e-mails and her text messages. Now how is that possible?

BROOKS: He can go in and manipulate the account to say OK and -- basically clone it.

GRACE: Blind-copy him?

BROOKS: Basically -- exactly. Basically clone the account so he gets notified and blind copied and she`d never know it.

GRACE: Out to Leigh in Virginia, hi, Leigh.

LEIGH, CALLER FROM VIRGINIA: Hi. Thank you for taking my call. Long-time fan.

GRACE: Thank you for calling in, dear. Thank you.

LEIGH: I am calling in because I`m curious. I know this is a reality-type show, but do the children fall under the Jackie Coogan Law to protect their assets from their parents?

GRACE: Excellent question. What do we know about that, Raymond Giudice? How can they be protected financially in court?

RAY GIUDICE, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Nancy, earlier it was talked about a guardian ad litem and I threw out the idea of trust accounts for these children. The difference in the Jackie Coogan case is when he was a child actor his contracts paid him and the parents wasted and squandered the money. I don`t know if the children under the contracts are direct recipients of any money.

GRACE: What about it, Herman?

RICHARD HERMAN, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: Ray is right on, Nancy. Right on the point. Right there.

GRACE: You`re supposed to be a defense attorney. What do you have to say in defense of Jon and Kate? Forget the eight right now.

HERMAN: Hey, what I`m saying is, aren`t your hard-working fans nauseated how much money these people make? It`s unbelievable.


J. GOSSELIN: If you listen to your heart and do what`s right. She needs to break away from TLC, be her own person, speak from her heart, be the kind person that I know she can be and let`s work this thing out.




UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Police have identified a 3-year-old boy abandoned at a Los Angeles bus stop and are now working to locate the child`s mother, who`s missing. Little Xavier Nelson was left at a bus stop around 12:40 a.m. Friday night.

A witness told cops a woman was sitting next to the boy but when a bus arrive the woman hopped on board, leaving behind the 3-year-old. The witness told cops he yelled to the woman to tell her she forgot the child but the woman just waved him off.

Now police are desperate to find this woman, who they identify as the child`s parent or caregiver. The boy`s grandmother says the child`s mother, 17-year-old Victoria Nelson, may be in danger and may have been forced to abandon her son. The grandmother says she hasn`t seen her daughter, Victoria, in over a week.


GRACE: A 3-year-old baby boy left at the bus stop. Mommy gets on the bus, takes off, and literally never comes back.

To Misti Reed, anchor, reporter at KERN AM 1180. Misti, what happened?

MISTI REED, ANCHOR/REPORTER, KERN AM 1180, COVERING STORY (via phone): I`ll give a timeline of what exactly transpired that we know of based on police reports.

Victoria Nelson is 17 years old. On -- I believe it was the 5th she actually told her mother, identified as Angela Thomas, that at noon she was going to take Xavier, 3 years old, to the mall.

Angela Thomas, Victoria`s mother, never heard or saw from them again. She reported them missing the next day, the 6th. Well, the boy turns up at that bus stop in south L.A. just after midnight Friday morning.

A citizen -- what we`re told is a transient actually tried to tell Victoria she was forgetting her child as she got on to a bus, but she waved him off. And so he sat with the sleeping Xavier for about an hour before he finally called police.

GRACE: So a transient.

REED: Right.

GRACE: A homeless person basically tried to tell the mother, hey, hey, hey, you`re leaving your kid, you`re leaving the baby, and she shooed him away and got on the bus and took off?

REED: That`s what police has said -- that`s what the witness told police that she had said. And he stayed there for about an hour before he finally turned him over, which is really lucky for that little boy that that man was so nice and kind to do that because that could have been anybody.

GRACE: That could have been anybody. A child sex predator, a parolee. It could have been anyone. A dope dealer, a drug addict.

REED: Yes.

GRACE: God was with Xavier that day.

To Stacey Newman, our producer on the story. What can you tell me about her MySpace?

STACEY NEWMAN, NANCY GRACE PRODUCER, COVERING STORY: Well, her MySpace, basically just the typical teenager type MySpace page. But one interesting quote she had on there said, "I`m so damn young, but I do it like a pro." Very grown for a 17-year-old girl.

GRACE: And what else can you tell me, Stacey, about the little boy? Who`s got the little boy now? Is he back with the grandmother?

NEWMAN: He is not back with the grandmother tonight. He`s actually with CPS tonight. Grandmother I believe is probably trying to work out some custody to get this child.

GRACE: OK. But didn`t the mother and the little boy live with the grandmother already? If there was not something wrong in that home, don`t you think, Stacey Newman, the child would be back in the home?

NEWMAN: I do. And actually, I think police are trying to just sort out what is going on in that home because also we`ve learned this is not the first time that Victoria has taken off with her child.

GRACE: Let`s unleash the lawyers. Susan Moss, Ray Giudice, Richard Herman.

Susan Moss, anybody could have picked that child up. And here she is on her MySpace whining that she`s so young to have a child? You know what? It`s too late for the whining.

MOSS: Absolutely. This child learned the hard way that the wheels on the bus go round and round. But he`s not alone because there`s a sibling. There`s a little baby, 11-month-old child, and that child also will be taken away from her custody.

You know, maybe family reunification will work, and maybe the grandmother will get custody, but only after we check and make sure that these people aren`t a danger to both these kids.

GRACE: I just don`t understand, Dr. Deltito, how you could leave your child sitting there and just looking back at it just get on the bus and leave.

DR. JOSEPH DELTITO, PROFESSOR OF PSYCHIATRY: Well, there are some people who lack empathy, lack sympathy. And remember, we don`t really know what happened. Maybe she was in trouble. Maybe should not was after her. She made a quick decision.

GRACE: Whoa, whoa, whoa. Put Deltito up. No witness says that someone forced the mother on the bus. Nobody asked her.

DELTITO: No, I`m just saying we should keep an open mind. Chances are this is not a caring mother who`s worried about the kid. But it could have been at the moment someone was after both of them. She thought the kid was safer just not with her by her side. There`s just too much you don`t know.

GRACE: Dr. Deltito, wait a minute. Wait a minute.


GRACE: She had the grandmother at home, where the child lived, where the other child was. So you`re actually telling me with a straight face that she could have thought it was better to leave the child with a homeless man at a public bus station in south L.A. than at home with the grandmother?

DELTITO: I leave open the 1 percent possibility that maybe she saw someone in the bus station, someone was following her, she thought she was in danger.

GRACE: Now please put Deltito up.

DELTITO: They may -- they may hurt the child. I`m not saying I believe that that`s the most likely scenario, but there may be a scenario like that boiling around here. In all likelihood she was someone who abandoned her child, plain and simple, because of her own, who knows, hedonistic interests. But we don`t know. And I think we should keep an open mind.

GRACE: I know what the witnesses said. And the witnesses said, Ray Giudice, Richard Herman, Susan Moss, that she sat undisturbed at a bus stop with the child, who finally fell asleep. A bus came up, she got on, they tried to show her you`re leaving your child, she shooed them away and left the boy and never came back. A 3-year-old child.

What`s she looking at, Herman?

HERMAN: We don`t know that this was the mother, Nancy. We don`t know who this woman was that got on that bus who was with that child. We don`t know if Victoria Nelson`s alive as we do the show right now. Let`s step back for a moment. Let`s let the investigation take first.

GRACE: Would you like to try to take a stab at the actual question, Ray?

GIUDICE: Nancy, every greyhound bus station, trailways, has videotape. There will be videotape showing how long she was there, who if anyone she talked to, her demeanor. Coupled with that Facebook quote, I see Casey Anthony syndrome here. Thank goodness the child is healthy and well taken care of.

GRACE: To Misti Reed with KERN AM 1180, they`re saying bus station. I thought it was a bus stop.

REED: Yes. It`s a bus stop. It was on the corner of Florence Avenue and Broadway specifically in south L.A.

GRACE: And that is right on the street. That child could have stepped right out in to the street.

REED: That`s correct. But as the report says, he was asleep on the bench when she did leave him.

GRACE: To Maria in New Mexico, hi, Maria.

MARIA, CALLER FROM NEW MEXICO: Hi, Nancy. Wow, I can`t believe I`m talking to you. I want to say I greatly appreciate everything that you do for the kids. And I appreciate it so much.

GRACE: Thank you. Maria, thank you.

MARIA: I really do.

GRACE: And I cannot take any credit. I really can`t. You know that I`m a crime victim. And.

MARIA: No. You give the facts straight.

GRACE: Thank you.

MARIA: You tell people like it is. And you give them the truth, even though it hurts. And I think that`s great.

My question is, who actually found the baby, like did someone get the baby -- did the police see the baby from the bus stop?

GRACE: OK. Stacey, Stacey, tell us again how the baby was saved?

NEWMAN: The baby was saved by a homeless man who is sitting at the bus stop. He watches the mom took off. She looked him in the eye, waved. He waited there for a full hour hoping she`d come back. When she didn`t, he took the little boy to LAPD.

GRACE: As we go to.



UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Really feeling it down deep in my spirit that maybe something bad has happened to her. And that`s maybe that`s the reason this person said stay here on the bench.


GRACE: Straight out to Doris, hi, Doris.


GRACE: I`m good, dear, what`s your question?

DORIS: I`m asking -- I`d like to know why the baby wasn`t automatically turned over to the grandmother because the child was already traumatized when he woke up in the arms of a stranger. But then to be placed with child services? And I know that there are federal laws, Nancy, that says children should be placed with biological relatives before they`re placed with strangers.

GRACE: To Mike Brooks.

DORIS: This child.

GRACE: . former fed with the FBI, why do you suppose -- you`ve dealt with these types of cases, Mike Brooks -- that the child didn`t go straight back to the home of the grandmother?

BROOKS: Well, if this has happened before, Nancy, I think Stacey was right, that law enforcement is trying to sort all this out before they make sure they`re not putting this child and the little sibling back in the home where both of them are going to be in danger again.

GRACE: Misti Reed, there`s another sibling, though, right, in the home?

REED: There`s an 11-month-old who was up until today living with the grandmother. She was taken as well from CPS this morning. And they haven`t released details on why. They keep a very tight lip on reasons for why they do what they do, but as of right now, none of Victoria`s children are with any of the biological relatives.

GRACE: Everyone, tip line. 877-527-3247.

Let`s stop and remember Army Private First Class Justin Davis, just 19, Gaithersburg, Maryland. Awarded the Bronze Star, Purple Heart, National Defense Service Medal, Army Service Ribbon.

Lost his life hours after calling home to wish someone happy birthday. Loved kung fu movies, rap, recording his own music. Heroes, God, Martin Luther King Jr. and Bruce Lee.

Dreamed of college and becoming an actor. Remember for a million dollar smile. He is an only child and leaves behind parents Paula and Dennis.

Justin Davis, American hero.

Thanks to our guests, but especially to you for being with us. And good night from Georgia, friends of the show, Galen, John, Amy, Jennifer. Aren`t they beautiful?

And a special good night to Boca Raton friend, Alana. Superstar, swim coach to so many, including seniors like 95-year-old Ann. To top it all off, Alana and her bulldog, Harley, never miss a show.

An d thank you to Connecticut friend, Rose, for these beautiful little hats and mittens for the twins. They love them. It`s not even cold yet.

Everyone, I`ll see you tomorrow night 8:00 sharp Eastern. Until then, good night, friend.