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Campbell Brown
Rush Limbaugh Dropped From NFL Bid; Wall Street Bonus Uproar
Aired October 14, 2009 - 20:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
CAMPBELL BROWN, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Tonight, here are the questions we want answered.
Breaking news: Rush Limbaugh dumped from the group that wanted to buy the Saint Louis Rams. He says he's the victim of a smear campaign. Is he right?
How can Wall Street be taking home $140 billion in bonuses this year, while Main Street continues to take a beating?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What infuriates people is when bosses at bailout companies continue to rake in millions.
BROWN: Plus, does zero tolerance at schools mean the end of common sense? A 6-year-old Cub Scout with a camping utensil suspended for carrying a weapon. Does that really protect anybody?
There's a lot of kids that get washed up as collateral damage between black and white, and it's not black and white.
BROWN: And should health care workers be forced to get flu shots? Some nurses and technicians say no, and they're suing.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have an issue with the government mandating me to get these vaccines and telling me that if I don't comply, then I don't have a job.
BROWN: But are they putting the rest of us at risk?
Plus, our special series, "The Brain That Heals Itself." Tonight, the medical breakthrough that's saving more veterans from a lifetime of pain. It's all done with mirrors, literally.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The joke is, it's smoke and mirrors. A lot of them just don't -- are not sure why it would work. And I'm still not sure why.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: But it does.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
ANNOUNCER: This is your only source for news. CNN prime time begins now. Here's Campbell Brown.
BROWN: Hi, everybody. We're going to start tonight, as we always do, with the "Mash- Up," our look at all the stories making an impact right now and the moments you may have missed today. We're watching it all, so you don't have.
We begin with some breaking news. Rush Limbaugh is out as a potential NFL team owner. If ever there was a question of whether pro football and politics can fix, apparently, the answer here, no. Limbaugh's politics were just too controversial for the group trying to buy the Saint Louis Rams.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: That group just releasing a statement from Dave Checketts, its chairman, saying -- quote -- of Limbaugh, "It has become clear that his involvement in our group has become a complication and a distraction to our intentions, endangering our bid to keep the team in Saint Louis. As such, we have decided to move forward without him and hope it will eventually lead us to a successful conclusion."
This of course all goes back to Rush Limbaugh's comments in years past about race, making a comment that watching an NFL game was like a little bit like watching the Bloods and the Crips without the weapons.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Limbaugh has not issued a statement tonight, but here's what he said about the controversy earlier today on his radio show -- quote -- "This is not about the NFL, it's not about the Saint Louis Rams. It's not about me. This is about the ongoing effort by the left in this country destroy conservatism, to prevent the mainstreaming of anyone who is prominent as a conservative."
We're going to keep following this story for you and we will have more details if there are any to share.
Cheers, but also lots of caution on Wall Street tonight. The Dow closed above 10000 for the first time in more than a year. After so many people lost so much, it's reason to celebrate, right? Not so fast.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SUSAN LISOVICZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: It's really one of the most remarkable rallies we have ever seen on Wall Street. But we still have a lot of ground to make up, because you might add two years ago it was at 14000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Cheers and applause as the Dow closes above 10000 points for the first time in a year, driven by a big quarterly earnings report by J.P. Morgan Chase.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's just a number, a psychological barrier, to be sure. ROBERT GIBBS, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: We don't measure the ups and downs of the stock market each day. I think the president would be quick to tell you that's only one measure obviously of any sort of economic health.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: While your 401(k) may not have recovered all your losses, "The Wall Street Journal" reports Wall Street employees are recovering nicely, thank you very much, average pay this year on target for a record high.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: If you work on Wall Street, it's like last year didn't happen. It seems like we're back at home people at home say, I'm struggling, I can't pay my bills, I'm in record debt, and there's a party going on in the financial markets.
KATIE COURIC, HOST, "CBS EVENING NEWS": The distance between Wall Street and Main Street has never been greater. While financial firms are handing out record compensation, many Americans are getting laid off or taking pay cuts just to keep their jobs.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Goldman Sachs will be up 99.8 percent, at Bank of America, 63.4 percent. Morgan Stanley comp levels will be up 33.3 percent, all this while corporate profits are not nearly back to pre-crisis levels at all three, which took billions in bailout money.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So how did all of this happen? We're going to have a whole lot more on Wall Street vs. Main Street coming up in a moment.
The fight over health care reform moved back behind closed doors today. Senate leaders need to merge very different versions of the bill into one. Maine Senator Olympia Snowe was the only Republican to vote for the bill from the Finance Committee yesterday, today very much on-message with her reasons why. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. OLYMPIA SNOWE (R), MAINE: These are historic times and historic endeavor. This is a historic time in which to confront this monumental issue.
I hope we could get broader support than just 60 -- broad bipartisan support -- building a broader foundation for the support of this legislation -- broad support that it truly deserves.
It's only going to get worse -- system in jeopardy. It will only grow exponentially worse. Family coverage in jeopardy. It will just be infinitely worse.
(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: The last president to push for universal health care reform has a prediction here. Bill Clinton was at a medical technology conference this morning. Listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BILL CLINTON, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Senator Snowe may not be the only person -- Republican to vote for it. There's four or five others who want to.
They are all arguing in the background that, if we can just say no, we can repeat 1994.
And they can't. It's a different country now.
They believe that, if we pass health care reform, that it will put the Democrats in a majority for 30 years. As a matter of fact, you know, they may be right about that this time.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Senator leaders say it will be a few weeks before they reach a compromise on a final bill.
New pictures and new details today about Jaycee Dugard and her recovery. She is on the cover of "People" magazine, the first time we have seen her since she was rescued 18 years after she disappeared.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
TODD: This is the picture that everybody had been waiting to see, the newly photograph of Jaycee Lee Dugard in "People" magazine.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The blonde hair is darker now, but Jaycee Dugard's smile and piercing blue eyes so prominent in the missing posters 18 years ago remain the same.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She told the magazine -- quote -- "I'm so happy to be back with my family. Nothing is more important than the unconditional love and support I have from them."
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: They all live in privacy in Northern California, reading, catching up, and cooking. Jaycee's specialty? Rice, beans and salsa.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This joyous reunion with her family is going very, very well. If you walked into the room and didn't know the circumstances, it would seem, I think, like any other family -- and the way that they have all embraced Jaycee's two daughters.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The girls, who once were never allowed in school, now have a president tutor.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Their level of education is extraordinary and is about at grade-level. The 15-year-old is learning at about what a 15-year-old would normally have had she been going to school. UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is her way of thanking everyone for their support and really let everyone see how happy she is. She's going to be OK.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Suspects Phillip and Nancy Garrido have pleaded not guilty. Jaycee's attorney says she will tell her story in court if the case has to go to trial.
Another controversy over a photo that shows a model in blackface, this one in "French Vogue." Why do people keep getting this so wrong?
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DON LEMON, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Are the editors pushing the fashion envelope or are they just pushing buttons here? And to be fair, there are pictures of the model slathered in white paint as well.
This is France. And I have to say, when I looked at the pictures immediately, I'm not sure if I was offended. I wasn't sure how to take it, but if it's just art or what have you. And many people are not offended by it. They just say it's sort of bad judgment.
ROLAND MARTIN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, they should be offended. First of all, it boils down to, why did you do it? I mean, what's the rationale behind it?
LEMON: Yes.
MARTIN: This was a stupid call by the editor and not understanding what you were doing. And the bottom line is, if you wanted to showcase women of color with this fashion shoot, go hire them.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: Just last week, an Australian television program included a skit with white actors wearing black makeup and Afros. Not a good idea here, people.
And an incredible find could bring a profit for one art collector. A painting he bought for $19,000 is actually apparently a long-lost masterpiece by Leonardo da Vinci. Estimated value now? More than $160 million.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It was thought to be a nondescript German portrait from the 1800s. But one art dealer suspected something more. Their investigation started with a fingerprint. It was discovered in the top left-hand corner of the painting when a forensic art expert scanned it with a new super-high-tech camera. The fingerprint, hidden under chalk and ink, was clearly discernible and, on closer examination, appeared to match one on da Vinci's St. Jerome. (END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The owner wants to remain anonymous. Probably not a bad idea.
So, has a telemarketing call ever gotten you so mad, you wanted to punch the phone? Well, one New York man went a step further. Police say he invited a persistent home improvement salesman to his life and then -- well, we will let Conan O'Brien finish the story. It is tonight's "Punchline," literally.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CONAN O'BRIEN, HOST, "THE TONIGHT SHOW WITH CONAN O'BRIEN": A New York man was arrested last week after allegedly scheduling an appointment with a telemarketer and then punching him.
(LAUGHTER)
O'BRIEN: Yes, that's right. That's right. Yes.
(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)
O'BRIEN: He scheduled an appointment with a telemarketer and then he punched him. Yes. The telemarketer waited until dinner time and then called the police.
(LAUGHTER)
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: That is the "Mash-Up."
Our big question tonight, why are Wall Street executives paying themselves record bonuses this year? Didn't we just bail them out? And that's up in two.
Plus, should medical workers be forced to get the H1N1 vaccine? Tonight's newsmaker, a nurse who is fighting back against a government mandate.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I have an issue with the government mandating me to get these vaccines and telling me that if I don't comply, then I don't have a job.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: It's a harsh reality of this recession. With unemployment at 9.8 percent, many Americans haven't had a payday in months. Yet, "The Wall Street Journal" says the big banks are on track for a record payday this year, just months after getting billions in bailout money. That has helped push stocks to a key milestone today. Check it out.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
LEMON: There's the bell, Susan. It's official.
(CROSSTALK)
LEMON: Yes, it's official. It's official now.
LISOVICZ: Yes.
LEMON: OK, Susan Lisovicz, New York Stock Exchange, first time in over a year the Dow closes above 10000.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Did the banking crisis, the recession, ever happen? It would be hard to tell looking at the pay now being doled out at the nation's top banks, by some estimates, a record $140 billion in compensation this year.
ROMANS: Blackstone, $4 million average pay, Goldman Sachs $743,000 average pay, J.P. Morgan Chase $133,000 average pay, it's remarkable. You're right. It's as if last year didn't happen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So, Wall Street's booming while Main Street is still hurting. Tonight's big question for our panel, can the rest of American -- rest of America ever catch up to Wall Street? What is really going on here?
And, Andrew, let me start with this -- with you on this. You are "The New York Times"' financial guy. You are the man.
ANDREW ROSS SORKIN, FINANCIAL COLUMNIST AND REPORTER, "THE NEW YORK TIMES": Right.
BROWN: You are the man.
So, in the interest of us not having sort of a knee-jerk reaction to the news, explain to us who is likely to be getting these big paychecks and what the rationale is for why.
SORKIN: Right. OK.
There's two pieces to this. There is the revenue generator. There's a trader or a banker who is bringing in huge amounts of revenue, let's say several millions of dollars, maybe tens of millions, $100 million a year. And then there are people who work for that guy or woman, and they are doing a lot of the scut work to do support this.
And so the issue becomes, if you're bringing in that kind of money, how much money do you actually want to pay this person? Now, this year, it actually happened to work, meaning they're actually making money. Obviously what happened over the past couple of years, they weren't making that kind of money and unfortunately were still getting the bonuses.
So, the question becomes, how do you properly incentivize these people and how do you properly incentivize these people so that they are not putting not their own institutions, but the entire system, at risk?
BROWN: And you talked about this a lot on your radio show, Brian. I know you have very strong feelings about it. What is your reaction?
BRIAN LEHRER, RADIO TALK SHOW HOST: Well, I don't begrudge anybody the opportunity to make money if they're making money. But the Dow is only one indicator.
We have a project at WNYC.org called Your Uncommon Economic Indicators, which is specifically to get people to post things that are happening to them or happening in their neighborhoods. And people are hurting. So, there's such a bifurcation.
For example, one we had the other day was from a college librarian who said for the first time in her career, she sees students coming in to try to borrow their textbooks from the library rather than go out and buy them. So, you can understand why there's a lot of rage out in the land when they see these bonuses, when they see the Dow at 10000 and the unemployment rate at 10 percent, tens are wild, and it doesn't seem fair.
BROWN: Well, I don't understand this. To this point, this dichotomy, you have got the banks handing out these big bonuses, but this is also a front page of your business section story I think yesterday that small businesses still can't get loans from the banks. And that's why we gave them the money.
(CROSSTALK)
SORKIN: That's the paradox and that is the travesty of what's going on, which is say that what should be happening -- you would think that if we really were in good times and people were making this kind of money, you would also be able to get a loan. Small businesses would able to get a loan.
BROWN: Right.
SORKIN: People would be able to get mortgages. And that's what has not happened yet.
BROWN: So why hasn't that happened? And so do...
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: To that point, then, to Brian's, do people have a right to be really angry?
SORKIN: I think they have an absolute right to be angry for multiple reasons, the biggest of which is that frankly the taxpayer rescued these companies a year ago and now they're getting the benefits and the rest of the world is not.
LEHRER: Right. Right.
And so when we see some of the companies referenced in that "Wall Street Journal" article are companies like Bank of America still getting bailout money, I want to know where is my bonus, or more to the point, where's my vote as a shareholder in effect to decide if that's the way I want this company to spend my money?
BROWN: Roland, it's not going to be long, frankly, before this anger gets transferred in part to the president and our government in Washington, and the feeling is, guys, why aren't you doing something about this?
MARTIN: Absolutely.
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: What are the political ramifications?
MARTIN: They have to have some backbone about this. Robert Gibbs said earlier today the White House sent a signal to Wall Street, watch it when it comes to pay. All bite, no bark.
Where are you going to have the regulation? The House finally is taking up reform when it comes to the financial industry. No idea when the Senate is going to do it. So it may not even get to the president's desk.
But, also, Andrew made a point earlier when he said they're making loads of money. They're making it because they're cutting costs. What are the costs they're cutting? They're cutting jobs.
SORKIN: Right.
MARTIN: So, the reason that people are mad, they're getting bonuses. They say, you're getting a bonus because you laid me off.
And so, the one-four letter work we can actually say on basic cable is J-O-B-S. That's why they're angry. And so Wall Street can't sit here and play a game by saying, oh, no, things are great. We're pulling in revenue.
No, your earnings are great because you are slicing to the bone. And the bone are people. And those people are the ones who are ticked.
LEHRER: And, Campbell, could I say that it's not just that it's unfair and infuriating, though it is unfair and infuriating. It seems to me that we're still vulnerable to repeat 2008 again, because the structural incentives are still in place to take unwise risks.
So, if bonuses are based on short-term profits, and the institutions that are taking these risks are still too big to fail, then with the taxpayer backing them up, they still have the incentives to do things that are stupid.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: And the guys in Congress are doing nothing. I'm sorry. They're doing nothing.
BROWN: Did they get this, Wall Street get this? Because you quoted the head of Goldman Sachs in a piece you wrote. And you said -- his quote was, "Compensation continues to generate controversy and anger." He goes on to say, "Anger is understandable and appropriate."
But I guess my question is, to them, is this a P.R. problem? Is it about optics or do they even get that it's much larger?
(CROSSTALK)
SORKIN: I think this is clearly an optics problem for them, because they are making all this money and they're saying, what do we do with it? Do we not give it to the employees? Do we give it to the shareholders? We're not giving it to the government because they don't think they need to do that.
Goldman Sachs, for example, is actually thinking about whether they should take a billion dollars and give it to charity, whether that would somehow help the sort of optics of the problem. But you have these at the moment what seems like profit machines. Now, we saw what we thought were profit machines a couple years ago. And we saw what that meant. And the real question is, where does the money go?
MARTIN: Give to charities, because charities have been hurt, Campbell, by this whole economic downturn as well. People you laid off, guess where they're going for help? Those same charities.
And, so, the people in America are the ones suffering. When you shut down banks, when you have all the mergers, the people who work there in the back offices, the people who are tellers, they're the ones that are getting laid off.
LEHRER: And I worry that the Obama administration has dropped the ball on this, that maybe they went to health care one month too soon.
MARTIN: Absolutely, and did not hold Wall Street accountable.
(CROSSTALK)
LEHRER: That's right.
(CROSSTALK)
LEHRER: Because the political moment may have passed.
(CROSSTALK)
MARTIN: That's right. They had the moment. They had it.
(CROSSTALK)
SORKIN: The saddest part about this, we are a year, a year after the crisis, and there has been no real financial reform. And the bonuses are really no different. And, more importantly, the structure of the bonuses, the incentives, the risks to the system are no different than they were before.
MARTIN: Nothing changed.
BROWN: And to that point, we're going to hear a lot more about this in the coming days. I have no doubt.
To Andrew, Brian, and Roland, as always, thanks, guys. Appreciate it.
Rush Limbaugh cut from the NFL. He's out of the running to buy the Saint Louis Rams. That's coming up in the download tonight.
Plus, our special series "The Brain That Heals Itself" -- a breakthrough therapy that is helping everyone from stroke victims to amputees. And it's all done with mirrors.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The joke is, it's smoke and mirrors. So, a lot of them just don't -- are not sure why it would work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: A school cracks down on a 6-year-old Cub Scout for packing a camping utensil. That's taking this zero tolerance thing a little too far, don't you think?
(NEWS BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight, we continue our special series on "The Brain That Heals Itself," a new medical breakthrough that can help patients with everything from brain damage to learning disabilities. Dr. Sanjay Gupta is live and online with us tonight to answer your questions. Log on to CNN.com/Campbell right now.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: More now in our special series "The Brain That Heals Itself."
One of the remarkable things that has been discovered recently is the fact that the brain can be tricked, which may not sound like good news, but is, especially for hundreds of American amputees back from fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. They're being treated at the Walter Reed Army Medical Center, where our Dr. Sanjay Gupta met Sergeant Nick Paupore, whose convoy had been hit by roadside bombs.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Sergeant Nick Paupore's convoy had been hit by a roadside bomb.
SGT. NICK PAUPORE, U.S. ARMY: When I woke up, I had a sense of loss, just like losing a part of your body that's been there your whole life.
GUPTA: For Paupore, the day had started like any other in Iraq -- hot, dusty. And then without warning, they were hit.
PAUPORE: And of course, I could feel a rush of the EFP going through the vehicle, of the -- a change of pressure and then up in smoke.
GUPTA: Paupore lost his entire right leg. His whole life changed. The worst part was the pain.
PAUPORE: All of a sudden, it just -- it -- like someone kept like turning on and off a taser. And just my whole leg started twitching. It's like I sat up and I like hold on to my stump. And it just -- it wouldn't stop.
GUPTA: Phantom limb pain.
DR. JACK TSAO, UNIFORMED SERVICES UNIVERSITY: It's the sensation that the limb is still present. And phantom pain, in particular, is the sensation that the limb is experiencing pain of some form.
GUPTA: When it comes to war, traumatic amputation's nothing new, nor is phantom pain. The problem is almost nothing works. Drugs, therapy, the pain is awful.
PAUPORE: It was enough to make me sit up and curl up and hold on to my stump. You can push all the medicine in the world and it won't stop it.
GUPTA: Dr. Jack Tsao says 95 percent of people who lose a limb have phantom pain.
(on camera): Is that the source of the phantom pain, these nerves that once present that now have to be cut in half?
TSAO: So, there's a lot of different theories where phantom pain is generated from. The thinking now is that it must be generated somehow in the brain, in terms of how the brain interprets the signals from pain. They're from the pain pathways that are left.
GUPTA (voice-over): So how to trick the mind into believing the leg is still there. It's remarkably simple, a mirror.
SGT. NICK PAUPORE, UNITED STATES ARMY: That it's actually making me feel like my foot is there.
GUPTA: Take a look at this. It looks like Paupore has two legs and that's exactly what the doctors want his brain to see. He sees and moves his leg like this. It's called mirror therapy, and Paupore started with 15 minutes a day four to five days a week. Within five months, he was pain free.
(on camera): Were you optimistic that this would work for this?
TSAO: I was not sure. I mean, I was actually astounded by how well it worked.
GUPTA: A lot of what we're seeing here basically is just using a $20 mirror to basically make it seem like his right limb is still there. That's all it is. And what that does basically is coordinate his visual. He's actually visualizing this with what's known as his position of the right leg. Coordinating those two things together really at least, according to Dr. Tsao's study, get rid of a lot of this phantom pain.
(voice-over): Once a skeptic, Paupore is now a true believer.
TSAO: Now the joke is it's smoke and mirrors. So, I mean, a lot of them just don't -- aren't sure why it would work. And I'm still not sure why.
GUPTA: But it does.
PAUPORE: I'm going to try to do as much as I can with my -- as if I had both normal legs.
GUPTA: The mirror therapy has helped Paupore reflect on all that's happened, and perhaps also given him a different and more positive view of how he'll deal with his future.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: And we have been getting a ton of questions online from you guys this week about this breakthrough therapy. So Dr. Sanjay Gupta is joining us now to help us answer some of those questions.
Sanjay, good to see you. Let me just start off by asking you, I mean, it's wonderful that such a simple therapy is working so effectively. But researchers are still basically trying to figure out how the therapy works in the brain, aren't they?
GUPTA: Yes. You know, it's interesting because all week long you've been talking about this idea of neuroplasticity, the idea that the brain can sort of rewire itself. One of the next steps of all that is trying to figure out is there ways to stimulate that rewiring. So, in fact, that simple $20 mirror, you're getting motor nerves, you're getting what are called position nerves. If you can just see your leg again using that mirror, is it somehow telling the brain something in a way that rewires the brain? So is that simple mirror actually stimulating the neuroplasticity?
That's exactly where researchers are heading. They're doing MRI scans before this therapy and after this therapy, and literally watching, Campbell, the brain change itself.
BROWN: And so I want to -- I want to based on this idea get to some of the questions we had from people. One being from Mary who wants to know, does this kind of brain therapy have applications for traumatic brain injury with our wounded military?
GUPTA: Well, I tell you there's some very promising research in this area for sure. One of the things that's important to point out is that when we talk about neuroplasticity or this idea of rewiring the brain, oftentimes it's done around a very specific area of the brain. So let's say someone had a stroke, there's a specific area of the brain that's been affected. The brain starts to rewire around that area.
With these traumatic brain injuries, a lot of times we're talking about sort of more diffuse injuries or injuries that affect the whole brain. We've got to wait for that brain injury to sort of settle down to see which areas are affected the worst, and then try and stimulate that rewiring. So the answer is, yes, but it is a little bit more complicated than something like an amputation or some discreet area of the brain that has a problem.
BROWN: And, Sanjay, Mari wrote in to say, "I know someone who has multiple sclerosis. Could this brain rewiring be something that could help there?
GUPTA: Well, let me say, Mari, in response to just about any injury in the brain, and this includes children and adults alike, the capacity for rewiring exists. Now with early MS, multiple sclerosis, a couple of things are happening. The plaques often develop in the brain, in the spinal cord, the plaques come, they go and they show up in different parts.
Part of the whole idea of rewiring is that if you have that plaque there for a period of time, the brain sort of says, OK, here's a problem. Let's try and figure a way around that problem. So if the plaque goes away, then it's a good thing went away but it doesn't allow the brain to sort of rewire around that. So really, in early MS, you don't see as much neuroplasticity. As MS progresses, you see more and more.
BROWN: All right. And, Sanjay, we got a ton of questions about disabilities, learning disabilities among children. That said, we don't have time to get to them right here, but you are going to be live and online with us tonight to answer questions.
GUPTA: Yes.
BROWN: So logon to CNN.com/Campbell right now. Sanjay's there. Thanks. We'll see you back.
GUPTA: Thanks, Campbell.
BROWN: And, of course, we don't want weapons in school. But what is a weapon exactly? The decisions teachers and parents have to make nowadays. Stay with us for the story of that 6-year-old almost sent to reform school for bringing a scout knife to class. Wait until we hear the latest developments.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK) BROWN: Is something that is OK for a cub scout to take on an outing not OK for him to take to school? This is a strange question maybe, but then there was the schoolgirl suspended for having a too long key chain on her Tweety Bird wallet. A weapons grade key chain authorities felt. And the case of the girl in trouble for bringing a knife to cut the birthday cake her grandmother had sent for her to share with classmates.
The horrors of Columbine led a lot of schools to impose a zero tolerance for weapons policies, but what exactly constitutes a weapon? The latest kid caught in the horns of this dilemma is all of 6 years old. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The news for a Delaware kid who was about to be sent to reform school over a camping tool.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Two weeks ago, he was called into the principal's office and suspended for bringing this to school. It's his favorite camping utensil that he wanted to eat his lunch with -- a so-called sfork (ph).
ZACHARY CHRISTIE, BROUGHT CAMP KNIFE TO SCHOOL: He said, can I have that? I'm going to hand this to your teacher and she handed it to the principal and I -- when they called my name up, I was like, uh- oh.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The school board has given 6-year-old Zachary Christie a reprieve, allowing him to return to school today. The board said Zachary was a model student and the punishment was too harsh.
CHRISTIE: It's fun being home schooled, but I do want to -- I do sometimes miss my friends and want to go back.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: So our question tonight, does zero tolerance at schools mean the end of common sense? And Elizabeth Scheinberg is joining us right now. She is a member of the school board involved here.
And, Elizabeth, welcome to you. I get that all of this is policy. But to everybody pretty much with a brain who's watching right now, doesn't it defy common sense on some level that this happened to this kid?
ELIZABETH SCHEINBERG, SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER: No, it's really an unfortunate experience what Zachary has had to go through. Our school district has first and foremost always had safety first. As you stated in your piece before, we have zero tolerance policies because safety is the most important thing.
That said, I'm a new board member. I came into my seat in July with a code of conduct that have been passed prior to me moving, coming into my seat. I don't personally believe that zero tolerance policies are the way to go. Research shows that zero tolerance doesn't work. My concern as a new board member is that we, and the board has started with taking tiny steps, but we come together with our parents and with our community and create a code of conduct that is livable and breathable.
And it's important to remember that the code of conduct is ever changing. It will always need to be altered to reflect the beliefs, the views and the values of the community.
BROWN: Right. Let me bring in Steve Perry. He is a principal, also an education expert and get his reaction to what happened to little kid.
Steve?
STEVE PERRY, CNN EDUCATION CONTRIBUTOR: Zero tolerance is not policy, it's political theater. It's rarely ever going to meet the needs of the children in the community.
We have to at some point expect that administrators are going to be held responsible for the decisions that are made within their schools. The best way to handle discipline is locally, meaning at the point of the infraction. This child shouldn't have been suspended. In fact, this is an opportunity for the principal to go out on a limb here and have the parent come in, sit down with the child and it's a teachable moment.
BROWN: So why -- why is that not happening? I mean, why -- it's certainly not happening in public school. Why is it not happening?
PERRY: You know, I don't know why on earth this child was even looking at 45 days of reform school. This is a case in which we've allowed politics to come in and overtake good sense.
This is not about education, it's about satiating the needs of a public that responded to a tragedy. Any time we make rules based upon the outliers, we end up with rules that nobody can adhere to. No one can live by zero tolerance. No adult would have what he or she has today if they only got one chance to be successful.
Let me bring in Jeff Toobin and get our own legal analyst. Jeff, what's your reaction here?
JEFFREY TOOBIN, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: My reaction is I must be on planet Neptune. I think what the school board did here was fine. I think this rule makes sense.
BROWN: Seriously?
TOOBIN: Why should kids have knives at school? That was a dangerous knife.
BROWN: Did you see the kid, though?
TOOBIN: I saw that he's an adorable kid. He's a great kid. He's an adorable kid. But you know what?
BROWN: So he deserves to go to reform school for this?
TOOBIN: The system worked. He challenged --
SCHEINBERG: No. I think it's very important to point out that this point that the school that this young man was going to be placed at is not a reform school. The Christina (ph) school district does not run a reform school.
BROWN: I know, but stop right there. I mean, to me, in all honesty, why wouldn't a teacher pick up the phone or a principal for that matter, pick up the phone, call this kid's parents and say hey, what are you doing letting your kid come to school with this camping tool. It has a little knife on it. This is dangerous. Can we --
PERRY: The system didn't work here.
SCHEINBERG: Well, and my question is, what --
PERRY: The system clearly -- the system thought it worked, it wouldn't have corrected itself. The system knew that it didn't work.
SCHEINBERG: That's correct.
PERRY: And as a result, because the system knew that it failed, it went back and corrected itself.
BROWN: OK.
PERRY: Kudos to the system.
BROWN: Let me go back to Toobin on this, because Jeff, I'm sort of surprised by your position here. You're usually meant --
TOOBIN: I'm a crazy outlier here, I recognize that. But wait a second. I mean, you have to make rules about what kind of weapons are allowed. And I'm sorry, that's a dangerous thing for a little kid to have in school.
SCHEINBERG: It is.
TOOBIN: So the school board had to make a rule, and they said you can't have it and you're going to be punished if you did. The punishment was seen as extreme and they limited it. But the idea of school boards saying no weapons at all is a good rule. And I don't think anybody needs to apologize.
PERRY: This is not about --
(CROSSTALK)
BROWN: I agree. That is not what this is about saying no weapons at all. It's about acknowledging each situation and hoping that the principals have the right and the ability to use their own brains to make good judgments. SCHEINBERG: Right.
PERRY: That's all it is.
BROWN: Right?
TOOBIN: To make good judgment.
(CROSSTALK)
PERRY: All this is saying -- all this is saying is that the principal used --
SCHEINBERG: Well, and what has happened in our school district is we have taken the steps to ensure that that there is some common sense. What ultimately became the biggest issue in my view is that we had a punishment that did not fit the criminal.
BROWN: All right.
SCHEINBERG: We had a young man who did not have --
BROWN: Clearly, without question.
SCHEINBERG: By his age.
BROWN: Yes. All right, guys.
SCHEINBERG: We know that this camping utensil is going to be --
BROWN: OK.
SCHEINBERG: This is going to be if I take to school, it's going to be considered a knife.
BROWN: We have to end it there, but many, many thanks. Appreciate your time, to Steve, Elizabeth and Jeff as always.
SCHEINBERG: Sure.
BROWN: When we come back, does a health care worker have the right to refuse to be vaccinated and if she does, what about the rights of those she may in fact, if she isn't vaccinated? We're talking about swine flu here, civil rights and the question as sharp as a needle. Stay tuned.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's big question, should health care workers be forced to take the H1N1 vaccine? That's what New York State is requiring. And today a nurse, Sue Field, went to court so that she and other health care workers won't be forced to get the shot. A judge has denied her request.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) SUE FIELD, RN, PROTESTING VACCINE: I have an issue with the government mandating me to get these vaccines and telling me that if I don't comply, then I don't have a job. Seasonal flu and H1N1 this year. What will the government then have the right to say they want to inject us with next year?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
BROWN: The big question tonight, are health care workers who refuse to get the swine flu shot putting the rest of us at risk?
And joining me right now is Patty, who is Sue Field's attorney. Appreciate you being here with us.
We just heard why she filed this suit. But New York has said when they allow this to be voluntary, on average only about 40 percent of health care workers end up getting flu shots. And you got to know what the concern is, is that they are around patients who are sick or whose immune systems are compromised. So if they have swine flu or, you know, don't know they have swine flu, they could end up really making someone sick much, much sicker. So what's the response to that?
PATRICIA FINN, SUE FIELD'S ATTORNEY: Well, we're not necessarily disputing the need for vaccines or even the efficacy or safety of the shot, although there are serious questions about H1N1 in particular, because it's been rushed to the market. The real basis of this lawsuit is does the commissioner of health of the state of New York have the authority to mandate compulsory vaccinations for New York state health care workers?
BROWN: I get all that. But you heard my question here, I mean, you could be endangering sick people if a health care worker hasn't been vaccinated. So how do you respond to that?
FINN: Well, I mean, a disease can be transmitted by anyone to anyone. I mean, a ride on the New York City subway --
BROWN: Right. But we're talking about sick people in a hospital. They're not riding on New York City subways. They're being cared for by health care workers with the assumption that the people caring for them are well.
So, you know, I don't know how you deal with that by any other means and then having -- then making sure that these people have been vaccinated.
FINN: Well, I mean, the presumption is that these health care workers are experienced in dealing with universal health care precautions and disease control. And they --
BROWN: I know. How do you deal with having swine flu?
FINN: Well, first of all, the problem is not at the magnitude that it's claimed to be. I mean, there's 19 million people in the state of New York and only 167 or so cases of the disease were reported.
BROWN: Right, but we haven't even entered flu season yet. I mean, that's what they're all saying is that this is going to get much, much worse, you know, as the season progresses.
But let me bring Sanjay, our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta into this.
Sanjay, what do you think? I mean, should this be mandatory for health care workers? You're going to have to get the shot if it is.
GUPTA: Yes, you know, I had the virus, so I'm actually protected.
BROWN: Oh, actually, that's true. How could I have forgotten?
GUPTA: Right. But I think that, you know, it's a very good point, you're asking good questions. I mean, I think that you put your patients at a real risk here. And I think you can sort of be wishy-washy and say well, is it going to be a big deal? People are concerned about the safety of this vaccine, but you're absolutely right.
In our hospital, in a lot of hospitals around the country, not at the state level, not the federal level but at the hospital level, we're getting the message down pretty clearly, you're going to get vaccinated.
BROWN: And, Pat, very --
GUPTA: And it makes a lot of sense.
BROWN: Yes, Pat, very quickly, are there certain steps your client is willing to take that she believes are going to be enough to ensure that she couldn't or wouldn't be able to infect her patients?
FINN: Well, first of all, my client experienced a reaction to a previous flu vaccine and as a result of that, she does not want to get further vaccinations. But yet she does not have the documentation required to get a medical exemption. There are very narrow limitations or exemptions.
BROWN: So again, you heard my question. Is she going to do something that she thinks in some way can ensure that she will protect her patients from getting anything if she has it?
FINN: Well, she does every day, I mean, hand washing, respiratory masks. If you're ill, employers, hospital employers should allow the nurses to stay home. There are alternatives to the vaccination, particularly for someone who cannot receive the vaccine. I mean, people have objections to vaccines.
BROWN: So presumably you're appealing this decision, I guess?
FINN: No. Well, all that happened today was that the judge just denied a restraining order, which was actually somewhat expected and was an extraordinary relief. But this is an extraordinary problem. I mean, we're back in court on Thursday at 10:00 and the judge will hear the matter further on a preliminary injunction.
BROWN: All right. We got to end it there. Many thanks.
FINN: Thanks.
BROWN: Appreciate your time, though. And Sanjay as always, thanks.
GUPTA: Thank you.
FINN: Thank you.
BROWN: Up next, we take you to the heart of the drug war. Our reporter risked his life to give you a chilling inside look at the drug cartels at work in the world's cocaine capital. That's tonight's "Breakout."
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
BROWN: Tonight's "Breakout," an extraordinary inside look at Colombia's vicious drug wars. CNN's Karl Penhaul has an exclusive report. Take a look.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
KARL PENHAUL, CNN VIDEO CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Life here revolves around two things, guns and drugs.
"CHIEF" (through translator): Here it's the rules of the street. The rules don't change. They will always be the rules, here or anywhere else.
PENHAUL: He's the gang leader. They call him "chief." My sources say he's made so many enemies he can't step outside this patch (ph).
"CHIEF" (through translator): We're all human and we all get afraid. I'm afraid my life will end suddenly before I can do anything to get out of this war.
PENHAUL: Everything comes to an end, said the lyrics of a salsa classic on the radio. But for now, there's work to be done. Gang members roll marijuana or pose with their firepower.
By nightfall, they'll have a thousand joints to deal on street corners they control. Colombian authorities say drug peddling in Medellin is worth $6 million a month. Cartel capos believe that's worth fighting for. The day before we met, chief buried one of his own.
"CHIEF" (through translator): I couldn't bear to look in the coffin. They killed him downtown. We don't know who did it. But a girlfriend of his took him down there, so the day they brought his body back up here, we killed that crack-head bitch.
PENHAUL: That conversation is cut short with news the drug bosses who sponsors this gang was sent to delivery. Lookouts are posted in case police or rivals try to muscle in.
(on camera): The gang members are telling us that the kilo of cocaine they've been waiting for all afternoon has now arrived, so we're going to follow them to a different location and see how they cut it.
(voice-over): They've raided mom's kitchen for the tools they need. The job now, to break down a brick of pure cocaine and cut it with caffeine and dentist anesthetic. They sell a gram for as little as a dollar, depending on how heavily they cut it.
Business mixes with pleasure. Their biggest pleasure, inhaling the cloud of pulverized cocaine from the liquidizer.
(on camera): They've been cutting cocaine now with a fruit juicer for about the last hour. And this dust going everywhere. Everybody is high as a kite. They've been smoking marijuana. They've been doing rounds of cocaine. They've been drinking beer, so now might be a good time to leave.
(voice-over): Before I go, I'm curious if "chief" ever thought of getting out of the drugs, the guns and the violence.
"CHIEF" (through translator): I dream of sailing away in a sailboat, alone and far away.
PENHAUL: But before he can live that dream, he first has to survive the nightmare of a cocaine war.
Karl Penhaul, CNN, Medellin, Colombia.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
BROWN: "LARRY KING LIVE" starts in just a few minutes. Tonight, revealing new information on Jaycee Dugard's life, back with her family.
